How Pippin Became Known as Prince of the Halflings in Minas Tirith
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- čas přidán 16. 03. 2024
- After his meeting with Denethor, word quickly spreads about Pippin and the local residents get the idea that he is Hobbit royalty and that he was bringing some half-high warriors to aid in the defense, but how exactly did they get this idea? It’s a bit of a funny story.
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It is in the Appendices, On Translation:
"Peregrin Took, for instance, in his first few days in Minas Tirith used the familiar forms to people of all ranks, including the Lord Denethor himself. This may have amused the aged Steward, but it must have astonished his servants. No doubt this free use of the familiar forms helped to spread the popular rumour that Peregrin was a person of very high rank in his own country."
Exactly. Appendix F, Part II.
Ah, that’s why I didn’t find it, I was searching for “formal/informal” and not “familiar”.
I think Gandalf deserves some of the blame for the way Pippin spoke to Denethor. He should've given him a heads up. I mean, how many hours did they ride on Shadowfax together? 🧐
@@Enerdhil to be fair to Gandalf, he did try to warn Pippin at the last minute that Denethor was not just a kindly old man like Theoden
@@stevemonkey6666
That's true, but he had to know how Hobbits spoke to him, Elrond, Galadriel, Boromir, etc. Gandalf had to know it was inappropriate for him to speak like that to the Ruling Steward of Gondor.
The whole thing was hinted not only by the title by also by Denethor on their first meeting:
"'Now tell me your tale, my liege,' said Denethor, half kindly, half mockingly. 'For the words of one whom my son so befriended will be welcome indeed.'"
Much more than "half" mockingly.🤨
And of course once he was thought to be the Prince of the Halflings, it was only a small step to the rumour that every one of the Rohirrim coming to Gondor's aid would be carrying a small but doughty Halfling warrior as well.
The doughty Hobbit warriors were only for the Cavalry of Shield Maidens.
- Rings of Power Season 6
A hobbit mayor's job is probably 90% party planning
I don't think they even do that much work. They probably just smoke pipe weed all day.⚗️
Realistically I think the shire mayor's job is not so much party planning as the actual partying 😁 (and as we find out later to administer the shiriffs)
@@stevemonkey6666
How many decades was Samwise partying up?😂
Yolo
@@stevemonkey6666 And the postal service.
Am I imagining that Pippin continued to call Aragorn ‘Strider’ even after the coronation?
Pippin for sure, and Aragorn uses it to say his house will be called Telcontar.
I always thought this insistence of the Hobbits calling him Strider was really comically disrespectful.
They are talking privately in a room, Aragorn reveals himself, talks of the grand mean of the poem. Then they call him "Strider" until the end. 😂🤣😆
@@Enerdhil
It can look that way from one perspective, but from another, that of simple country manners, it can be more respectful to stick to the origional association rather than change your manner to someone just because circumstances have changed.
@@horsemumbler1
My point and what makes it so hilarious is that only a very short time before the Hobbits learn Aragon's true identity, that is his real name, they hear he is called "Strider" by the locals for the FIRST TIME. It is not as if they had been calling him "Strider" over a thousand times for a year. Oh wait! That's what ended up happening.😂🤣😆
My favorite part of the whole thing is that a rumor spread that a host of knights from Rohan would each be accompanied by a halfling warrior. 😂
Some riders bore two Halflings.🤪
@@Enerdhil Wouldn't test be a wholeling then?
@@Clyde-S-Wilcox
😆🤣😂 Yes
Eowyn uses the informal form to Aragorn when she asks to come with him on the paths of the dead.
Yes! I had forgotten that one, and it’s a great example of polite usage of the familiar.
Did she called him a "chauvinist?" 😅
@@Enerdhil it's a remarkable passage really. In just a few words Tolkien let's us know her feelings for Aragorn and her frustration at being held back, her desire for renown and shows quite a lot of sympathy with her position as a woman amongst warrior men.
@@joannemoore3976
Yes. I remember. We can see after she is denied, how she has a death wish and is hell-bent on dying in battle. She really is an amazing character. Saved only by true love.💕
"On the fly" would be an example of an idiomatic phrase, actually. :) Which may have been deliberate!
You do such a great job of fishing up passages that deal with every topic. I read your post telling Joshua where to find the passage he was looking for.
If you have friends that love Tolkien, they are sooo lucky. "Why read the books? I'll just ask my Buddy here." 😁👍
Plus of course Pippin new all these important people. He knew gandalf and Aragorn. He became friendly with Faramir, and denethor made him a guardsman in the tower. Plus he had a hobbitish informality with many of these people
Great point! Also, his tone of voice was likely very polite, no matter what he said.
As a Portuguese speaker, I was glad to hear your discussion about thou and you. I always thought that “thou” was the formal equivalent to usted (Spanish) and você (Portuguese), and that “you” was the informal equivalent of “tú” (Spanish) and tu (Portuguese), but it was other way around! Very interesting!
you could recognize it by it similarity as in most Indo-European languages the 2. Person singular starts with a "T" - "thou" "toi" “tú” "tu" "ti" "ty" etc. etc. - This resulted in the paradox situation that while once the English speakers became so formal that they began to address even their newborns, their cats and even their single lost socks in the plural, now they also simultaneously address almost everybody by their fristname - a little schizophrenic - but that is societal and linguistical change for thee ;-)! The only Beings not always addressed in plural in English are God and sometimes the Saints in old prayers, which makes the whole even more funny...
Those of us with no linguistic training but are well read in King James Biblical translations, I think it feels at least poetic, if not formal. It is outdated, but even Christian music uses thou, thee, and thine.😁👍✝️
@@Enerdhil well, grammatically "thou" is more direct and intimate, immediate, with less pretense and artifice and far less distance so it kind of fits, as it makes the spiritual Beings "nearer to ones' core than oneself".. but it still seems funny that basically a broken computer is in English addressed with more respectful grammatical "reverent distance" when one threatens to throw it out of the window than the Creator of the Universe in prayers...
@@Chociewitka
Interesting thought.😁
🇵🇹
I have an example of a translator thinking within the target language:
In Terminator 2 a famous line oft repeated is, "Hasta la vista, baby." On the DVD version I've seen, all language tracks, except Spanish, use this phrase. The Spanish track used, "Sayonara, baby." to indicate an alien phrase.
I remember there was a remark that when he put on his uniform he felt kind of silly, but "looked indeed like a 'prince of halflings'. And when the ruffians saw him in it, they cerrainly were impressed!
Great point.😁👍
Considering that Pippin is the heir to the Thainship of the Shire, he sort of IS a 'Prince of the Halflings'....
Originally "thou/thee" were singular and "ye/you" were plural, but English eventually adopted the French custom of using the plural form in formal contexts.
I'm told biblical Greek might be ding what the French do, which is why in some gospels it's unclear if a reference to plural persons or one person in the formal .
Yes, "you" is plural. Greek also uses the plural forms for formal/respectful address. When speaking to an elder, teacher, or just being polite you pluralize your verb conjugations.
Anyway, my guess is that Thou/Thee/Thy (singular) is associated with biblical speech because of the importance of unambiguously communicating God's singularity in the emergent monotheistic faith. "Hallowed by *thy* name", etc. And if one uses "thou" with the one God surely it must be a very formal address, right? Delicious irony 😂
@@AnthonyDGreen
"For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory now and forever. Amen."🙏✝️
The title is not far off. He is the son of the Great Took.
Yeah, there's really no more accurate way they could have described him and his circumstances, then and later.
Now that was a true eye-opener, thank you for that! As a native German-speaker I'm of course familiar with the concept, we have the formal Sie and informal du. But it never occured to me that thou was used in such a manner, I always figured it was an old English way of speaking. I'll pay more attention now to the use of it. I'll come to the Mouth of Sauron in a few days (I'm currently reading it in real time). I also remember it used in the Silmarillion quite often, I'll pay closer attention in my next read who is speaking to whom 😊
Great stuff, as usual.
Ya know I just figured it was the classic human nature that caused rumor to spread and I was really wondering where you were gonna go with this. Pleasant surprise I really enjoyed it!
How about a video on Middle Earth gossip?!! Yeah, let's have it!
This is quite deep. I enjoyed these musings. Well done.
My dear melon Geek, I am merely a lowly English teacher. So I have never heard of this distinction between formal "you" and informal "thou." I was always taught that "thou" was archaic and therefore now used only in more formal settings. "Thou" is singular and "you" (ye) is plural, according to the dictionaries Tolkien as a Catholic surely knew the basic prayer: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women..." This is certainly formal language, as nobody speaks informally to the Mother of God. I took the passage in RotK where Denethor was amused to mean that it was Pippin's wishing to pledge himself to service in recompense for Boromir's sacrifice that amused him. I also understand that Pippin was called a prince due to the rumor going around Minas Tirith that the Rohirrim would bring with them doughty halfling warriors, so that Pippin had come to announce that to the Steward. Sorry, Geek, but I cannot seem to find the word "thou" in either passage. Perhaps I'm missing the right textual reference? And also, perhaps Tolkien meant Westron to have a different distinction of formal and informal than English. Very intriguing. Keep up the good work. Namarie.
He doesn’t use “thou” in the passage; he explains in the appendices that Pippin was using the familiar form (though not translated as such)
Return of the King, Appendix F, part II: Translation, paragraph 2.
Joshua, you said, "...every language has its idiomatic (you know) ways of talking that don't really make sense if you translate literally yo another language and I can't think of a good example OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD...." 😂🤣😆
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@TolkienLorePodcast
You are funny anyway, but that was hilarious. I went back and listened to it several times and it got funnier the more I listened to it. As a standup comic line it gets A+👏👏😂
It's in the book The Return of the King
If you’ve ever been around upper class Brits (I’ve had the misfortune) you’ll note they still use Thee and Thou as affectionate terms-eg, lovers call one another thee in love letters, a governess will call babies thee, etc.
Another subtle thing Tolkien does (Americans fail to note this usually) is use social class coding language. Farmer Maggot first sees Pippin in the “Mushrooms” chapt and says, “If it isn’t Master Pippin-Mister Peregrin Took, I should say..” first addressing Pippin as if he’s a mere boy with the affectionate “master,” then correcting to more dignified adult address.
Later, in Bree, Frodo introduces the group to Butterbur: “Mr Took and Mr Brandybuck. This is Sam Gamgee. My name is Underhill.” Observe that Sam, being lower class, does not get called “mister”-in fact his lowly station only merits a “Master Samwise-a servant’s title. Frodo calls himself “Underhill,” the way a gentleman or lord would speak. Tolkien does this brilliantly throughout, although that is how any educated Englishman of his day would write,
I have a that list all of the Hobbit meals as well
Pippin says to (I think) Bergerond or maybe Bergil that his father is a farmer
As an aside; there is only one Michel place name in England, Michelcombe (big valley) on the edge of the Dartmoor National Park, Devon. Guess what its very close to ... Buckland in the Moor.
The same word survives more often in Scotland as Meikle (also meaning big). Scots (language) is more closely related to Middle English than modern English is as it didn't go through the Great Vowel Shift that southern English (language) went through in the Early Modern period.
So the "ch" is pronounced /k/? Mih-kle? I have seen articles that argue it could be Mih- chel, with a /ch/ sound.🤔
My initial thought was the ch sound, which would make the word sound as Mitchel I think, but as I live in Scotland the natural pronunciation would be a hard K. The Scots Meikle is definitely a k. Maybe I've just presumed an English variant would sound more French. Having said that, I think Michelcombe is with a hard K ... if that helps. I guess without a Devonian local I don't know for sure. Local pronounciation can be very different from standard lettering, eg Wisbech in East Anglia is pronounced Wisbeach, Cholmondeley is pronounced Chumley.@@Enerdhil
@@iainmc9859
Thanks for clarifying the pronunciation of "Michel." It is so Tolkienian that Joshua could easily spend 30 minutes on a video that talks about Michel Delving; possible origins and pronunciations.
@Enerdhil it’s literally “big diggings” (mickel being I think Old or Middle English for big or great).
@@TolkienLorePodcast
There are apparently two Old English pronunciations for the "ch." They would have different meanings but both would make sense with "Delving."
Personally, I don't care whether it is Mitchel or Mickle Delving. Heck, it might be French and sound like Michelle.😅
When you go to ren faire, the " citizens" of the fair may refer to you as a Lord or Lady.
Only if you cosplay as one.😁
A related point: Frodo is not actually Frodo, but Froda! And Smeagol is actually Trahald, I think. This is also in Appendix F.
Froda was Frodo's name before the trans surgery.🤪
Frodo's name was Maura, not Froda.
@@dustwyrmI think he says in the appendix that it was Froda and Bilba, not Maura. Where is Maura from?
Oh, in People's of Middle Earth, ok.
@@blakewinter1657 To be fair since it's not published it could be argued that his name was Froda, but It seems very unlikely since it's an old English name that means wise, and in the unpublished epilogue it translates Frodo's name as old-wise.
So if his name was Froda, it would have to coincidentally have been a shared word between Rohanese and Old English or mean that the epilogue isn't canon.
@@dustwyrm
I prefer Bingo as in the song
"B-I-N-G-O and Bingo was his name."
Now what's odd is that sometimes Tolkien seems to be thinking in English, though, like when Galadriel says that the box she gives Sam has a G on it which can stand for 'Galadriel or garden in your language.' But was the word for garden also beginning with G in hobbitish? Remember, they didn't call themselves hobbits, but kuduk or something like that.
Again, translator’s editorial choice. For the reader, would it make sense to say that it had the letter “phi” for “light” (in a Greek-English translation, say)? That would just be confusing.
@@TolkienLorePodcastWhat I mean is that Galadriel's name is actually Galadriel, it isn't translated. So if the rune representing a G sound stands for Galadriel but also 'for garden in your language,' then it must also stand for Garden in the Hobbit dialect of Westron.
Another issue is the the runes in 'Westron' in the figure showing Balin's tomb. They are actually runes that write the words in English, and not in Westron.
@blakewinter1657 oh I see what you mean. And yeah Balin’s tomb is definitely a weird thing to account for lol.
I think the whole formal/informal thing for the words you/thou is similar to the same thing for the words ye/the. In written documents the character used for the "th" sound looked a lot like a "y"
The y for th is called a 'thorn', originally Old (or should I say Olde) English, from the runic alphabet. Looks like a b with a tail (descender) beneath.
I don't think Tolkien used 'ye' in any of his major works. He possibly considered it an affectation even in the very early C20th.
@@iainmc9859 "‘‘Hear all ye Elves!’"
LotR, Farewell to Lorien
"‘Oathbreakers, why have ye come?’"
"Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart for ever."
LotR, Passing of the Grey Company
"Oaths ye have taken: now fulfil them all, to lord and land and league of friendship!’"
LotR, Ride of the Rohirrim
"Lo! lords and knights and men of valour unashamed, kings and princes, and fair people of Gondor, and Riders of Rohan, and ye sons of Elrond..."
Field of Cormallen
"Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor"
LotR, The Steward and the King
You mean the circular "d" with a line through the stem (voiced)? Or the oval-shaped "0" with a line through the middle (voiceless)?
@@Enerdhil I am nothing like an expert in old or middle English but I believe the word the or ye is þe
@@stevemonkey6666
I have seen that letter before, but have no idea how to pronounce it.
I thought you were referring to IPA symbols, which are used in dictionaries to approximate pronunciation. There are two for the "TH" sounds. One is the Greek letter theta. The other is like a fat, curled "d" with a line through the stem.
I am sure Tolkien used these symbols because their pronunciation never changes.
Gemütlichkeit is a good example of a word which doesn't quite translate perfectly.
Now you have to say what it means. Don’t leave us hanging!
@@TolkienLorePodcast "State or feeling of warmth, friendliness and good cheer." =^[.]^=
@@Raycheetah
😁
Because it’s the idiom you used at the moment ‘doing it on the fly’ makes zero sense if you said it ‘preforming it while floating’