A Design Flaw with Shimano Pedals (no one talks about)
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2023
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About Neill Stanbury: neillsbikefit.com.au
About the RCA: roadcyclingacademy.com
Expert Bike Fitter Neill Stanbury explains the biggest problem with some of the most popular pedal systems on the market. The 3 bolt design is a very good system and works well when brand new, but as soon as wear get's into the system this can cause havoc among your position.
#cycling #bike #fit
Playing with no float cleats can go wrong quite fast if you aren’t suited: your ligaments on the sides of the knees can get severely irritated in a good days riding and set you back for months. When experimenting, make sure you don’t go riding long and adjust quick.
He is not saying to use no float cleats, only to potentially replace old pedals, he is using yellow cleats which do have float.
@@cs8szIm not saying that as a reaction to the video, more as a reaction to some suggested solutions in the comment thread.
I disagree, it’s design to do so, it allows the cleat to follow an individual pedal stroke putting it closer to where it should be.
@@vr4966 not when there’s no-float cleats. I can attest on some very painful ligaments when my cleats don’t float and/or angled in the wrong way
Have a good bike fitter to set if for you and go short and easy for a couple of first ride..It took about 2 ride for me to adjust, and I’ll never go back any cleat with float
Bike fitter here (albeit not as good as Neil), Time actively sell this as a design feature (lateral float) and some people really like this additional style of float. Shimano also state that the blue cleats do this less because the pivot point is at the front of the cleat and not the middle like the yellow. So you have the 2 types of float to talk about (angular float and lateral float). You also have self-centring float which only Time have IIRC (which really doesn't suit some people). I also don't think Keywin has this lateral float and is a 3 bolt system so you can have a 3 bolt with a fixed lateral float. Speedplay also have the lateral rocking wear issue which is amplified on big feet/heavier/more powerful riders which is definitely not nice. Ultimately, refresh your 3 bolt cleats a little more often and don't let them wear out too much.
I just checked my Time Xpresso 7 pedals, and they do indeed have a large amount of lateral float. I'd never heard of this self-centering feature, though, and they didn't seem to be doing that. The cleats are a bit worn, though.
@mattnock3721 If you put the shoe in the pedal without your foot in, you should be able to feel a slight return back to the centre. It's not much but it is present. I'd love to have a set of every pedal for customers to try but that would take a lot of time up for something no one is really that bothered about.
I greatly prefer Shimano blue over yellow for this reason; the elimination of lateral float is really noticeable imo
You're right about Keywin pedals. There's no lateral float, only 6 degrees of rotational float if you choose the float option. They're a brilliant design and have the best rotational float sensation I've ever felt. Additionally, you can also change the resistance that rotational float faces without affecting the cleat release force which, to my knowledge, no other road pedal design offers.
I wish that you had included XC pedals in the above discussion as.I use them and other MTB'ers .
Blue cleats dont move in the front of the cleat and they will in the rear part. Speedplay has a very small base and they suck when a bit of mud/sand gets in o even just water (oxide).
I realised that 5 years ago and changed to the blue cleat, which in principle should not have that behaviour. On Shimano website they actually provide this lateral float data. It was the hint for the knee issue I was having. The issue was gone a month later.
Spot on.
There is a condition called FAI (Femoroacetabular impingement) which just means the hip is a ball and socket and there’s no guarantee that the hip goes straight up and down. In normal life it’s less of a problem because as soon as your foot leaves the ground it’s free to go where it wants. It shows up on a bike because the crank controls the movement. Lateral float was Time’s way of addressing this since the 80’s, and Shimano’s way of addressing it with the yellow cleats. What you lack are the diagnostic tools to understand when there is need for lateral float. Back in the 70’s when cleats had a slot to hold onto the back of the pedal without float, the New England Cycling Academy came up with the FitKit which includes Rotational Angle Device (R.A.D.) pedals, which were simply free floating pedals with two indicators sticking out the side. One indicator was fixed to the pedal bearing the other floats with the foot. What this shows is the true natural position of the foot as the rider pedals, and a certain amount of information about FAI. As nobody is built in a factory, everybody has some degree of FAI, so the goal is always to get the indicators lined up in the middle of the power stroke where the forces are highest, and on average on center at the top and bottom where FAI is at it’s worst.
When I watched your first fitting video series where you dropped Cam’s cranks from 172.5 to 165, I was thinking that you need better diagnostic tools. Your refit on the rider with differences in inward and outward rotation made that clear. If I had a spare set I would send them to you, but they stopped making them a long time ago. It’s a diagnostic tool that bike fitting really needs, but so few bike fitting schools cover things like FAI.
Sounds like a gap in the market for someone to fill. If there was a patent, it's long since expired.
@@pmcmpc the problem isn’t the lack of diagnostic tools, it’s the lack of understanding. Over the last 20 years my shop has had 8 other fitters, yet I’m the only one who uses those pedals. There is clearly information there, they just think they don’t need it. Another example is my tool to keep saddle height from going too high. Retul uses knee and hip angles, and more often than not set saddle height too high. Neill in one of his videos explained his method of limiting saddle height as a relationship between quad and hamstring tension. The hamstring is along the back of the knee, the quad goes over the patella. Retul uses a sensor on the knee, using an offset you can find both quad and hamstring angles. If you graph the ratio of the two it becomes clear when the knee loses the control of having tension on both sides. I wrote a program that takes Retul data in real time and shows this, I even sent it to Retul. Nobody uses it…
I've noticed this happening as my right cleat needs a lot of rotation to counter my right foot naturally pointing outwards more --- one foot floats a lot more than the other one.
I was looking at this issue with a client yeaterday. Interestingly, we found that brand new yellow cleats slopped around more easily than cleats with light/moderate wear.
Pedal wear is an issue overlooked by a lot of cyclists and most mechanics dont bother looking closely at pedals during a bike service.
Keep up the good work Neil.
I use the blue cleat with the front engagement point dremelled out to be similar to the yellow. Less sideways float.
To me Q-factor is the most overlooked aspect of a bike fitting.How the foot, knee, hip, back tracks with each pedal stroke it integral for the right fit. If the Q-factor is too narrow the knees flail out with each pedal stroke. Hip rocking will also occur. Pain will ensue. You have to compensate by raising the saddle to narrow out the flailing which gives you other problems. Get stance width right, then you won't have as much of a tendency to move laterally or angularly. The problem is that there are only 3 or 4 companies that make pedals that have longer pedal Q FACTORS. Speedplay has the most lengths to suit the majority of all Q factor needs. The lateral shift of the cleat gives an additional 6-8 mm on each side to go more narrow or more wide depending on which stem length you buy. Shimano, Keywin, iSSi, and SQLabs makes a longer pedal stem length, these may be options for people who may need a Q-factor adjustment.
Another wear point-> I’d like to add that the stainless steel metal plates embedded in the platform of the pedal on my Shimano Dura Ace SPD-SL’s, have fallen off and corrosion noticed underneath them. This causes a lot of additional movement. I am beyond the 3 year warranty and repaired them myself with epoxy and a cut up apple titanium card.
Some rotational float but no lateral float? Have a look at SPD, it offers just that, plus you can walk with them when you are off the bike.
Feels way worse than spd-sl
SPD on all my bikes
@@invisiblescout6335 How so? Maybe the shoes?
This could explain why others and myself experienced less knee alignment issues when the switching from yellow to blue or red cleats.
I rode both MTB (Garmin Rally powermeter on Shimano SPD on 1 bike & Crankbrother pedal on another bike) for trail & Road bike (Look pedals).
Has to adjust the LOOK pedals couple of time to get the sweet spot.. and after running it for close to 2 years.. I got tired of walking in the road shoes (slippery and all) and decided to install MTB Crankbrother Eggbeater pedal on my road bike.
For the first 500+km, my calve muscle was trying to get use to the new cleat position as mtb SPD/Crankbrother cleat are slightly more forward by maybe 3-5mm than LOOK/SPD-SL.
But it’s so liberating on MTB XC shoes and cleats.. so easy to clip in & out and much safer to walk around. The only thing better in LOOK pedals are that the bearing on the spindle is much smoother than the MtB pedals. Just sharing my personal opinions
Love all your vblogs. Keep up the great work
Recently switched to from Look to Shimano, as soon as I clipped in I noticed much more movvement. After some experiments and up-side down comparison figured this out: new Shimano (6 deg) had a ton of lateral movement, old Look (4.5 deg) had almost none, but had some rocking. Felt like I'm on ice in Shimanos, think I'll go back to Look (I'm a little worried about going to blue cleats, which might be the other option).
Wow! a fountain of excellent information. Never would have thought of this issue. Both Ultegra and cleats have ridden thousands of K's so will be checking and chucking out if necessary.
I had this exact problem with yellow cleats on SPD SL pedals. The left pedal had worn just like demonstrated. But I hadn't been looking out for it / noticed it, and every pedal stroke I was subconsciously trying to correct the left foot to keep it straighter. I moved to Assimoa pedals with fixed cleats. For quite a while it was such a strange sensation not having to correct the left foot position - it took quite a while for it to adapt to feeling natural again. Definitely preferring the fixed cleats now though. Having the feet fixed and not shuffling around all the time feels right to me.
Me too!
To be fair, this is not really a "design flaw" but a design feature of the yellow cleats, that require some lateral movement to be able to pivot around the centre of the cleat, as it is also stated by Shimano themselves in the yellow description. As the blue cleats have a different pivot point, this feature is not needed..
Before I went clipless like all the marketing recommended, I never had a single foot, knee, or hip problem. Tens of thousands of miles, and I know my feet squished side to side in my running shoes and loose toe clips. After pro fittings and all sorts of shoes and pedal combos, including full custom everything, it was all worse in one way or another. The only great thing was being clipped in for climbing. I guess everyone is different.
The original Time pedals from the 90s had significant side to side float, marketed as a feature, not a bug. Time used ‘float’ to describe the side to side, and rotation to describe, well, the rotation. Over time the term float has been coopted to describe the rotation in other pedal systems.
And current Time pedals have ±2.5mm on road, and ±1.5mm on MTB.
I think it's a reasonable feature to have tbh, someday this muscle is a bit inflamed, sometime that muscle, and you might need to move further outward or inward.
Hey. I remember that too! Lemons had switched to Time pedals from Look in 1989 when he won the Tour de France. He used Time pedals again in 1990 when he won the Tour. The cycling magazines had Time ads that purported the benefits of having angular float and lateral float.
I always set them up based on sliding the cleats outward, with the thinking that I could slide them in to relieve my knees
Also perfectly highlights the issue with Lake and a lot of other shoes...the upper half of the sole is rotated inwards way more than feet actually are.
that's because they have a curved last
@@scotth3354 yeah that's what I said, feet aren't curved that way.
@@MrFornicater some do. Me, I like a shoe with a bit of curve to the last, but they don’t work for everyone
Did have the side ways float with ultegra spd sl pedals from Aliexpress. But no float with dura ace spd sl pedals from a local shimano dealer.
I have noticed this for quite awhile now, which is why I immediately opted to switch to the blue cleats.
Hey, first thing I’m wondering when you move the cleat so easily in the pedal is; how tight are the springs on those pedals? Does it make a difference? The tighter the springs, the less easy it moves? (Side to side and rotational) or not?
I have seen many neglect the tension, but for me I generally get the tesion indicator more in center and find the uncreased tension makes for a snappier easy release and moderated that side slop so it wasn't an issue, my shoes kept one consistent spread on left and right, and with ample tension and no mushy pull back feel when riding all out . Tension should be tightened/increased if possible for advanced riders. Keep cleats and pedal clean as you can with rags , windex, rubbing alcohol or even just water to minimize wear. If you set your feet spaced right, you may not have a problem with bottoming out your side to side limits on SPDL. For those that do, trying a narrower Q factor for shorter legs could be the trouble. Many late model cranks run on wide stance side for all riders. In the past a nice crankset had a narrow stance of 140-144mm, now so many are 145-150mm Q factor.
As a rider on yellow cleats, seems a less-floaty cleat is the way to go; however, should I just go one down?
Blue cleats still have some float but I don't see any lateral movement on my set.
Would this contribute to hotspots or numbness on the lateral foot/forefoot area? I never had this problem when I got fit but a year later I can’t do more than 30-40 miles without the feet rebelling.
Timely video - got some new shoes and my knees/quads have been sore since. On a ride thought the new cleats had come undone but not the case. Dumb ass time, not checked the pedals so thanks for the video which has engaged my brain! 🙈
@Road Cycling Academy I have Shimano Yellow cleats. I’m having trouble with my left ankle Striking the crank arm on every pedal stroke any thoughts on why that is?
Have a "look" at some keywin pedals. They take the unique approach of fixing the cleat onto the pedal body with no movement and add in some float on the axle inside the pedal.
Interesting video, and not surprised that in a world of bike fitting videos and articles, that it’s Neill that’s been the first to raise this 👍. Whilst Speedplay don’t have this lateral side to side movement, I’d be interested to hear Neill’s thoughts on the massive lateral rocking issue that they do have. I’ve used them for years, but after three pairs of Wahoo speedplay pedals developing significant lateral rock within a matter of a few weeks, I finally gave up ant went to Assiomas. The difference in foot/pedal stability with the Assiomas was huge, as it was when I tried SPD SLs, so I can’t see myself going back to Speedplay unless I need to from a fit perspective (the Q factor on the SPD SL based Assiomas is a tad too wide for me).
Keep up the good work gents.
Exactly!! What I'd consider premature wear of the pedal itself (plus the "foot down" cleat) is what caused me to leave SP (had been using for years) to go back to Shimano.
Neill isn’t the first to mention this. This lateral side to side rocking isn’t even marketed as a flaw, but a float feature. And something that is also common in Look pedals.
Interestingly, I've much worse outcomes with worn speedplays than shimanos - they would end up having quite a large rotation about the longitudinal axis of the foot as the cleat wore. I noticed this to be energy-sapping - presumably from the extra stabilising required to keep foot flat on pedal. I've had much better experiences with shimano cleats as they have worn but that's me.
Over on Cade Media channel, James, the bike fitter from London, rants about this a lot. He really hates Speedplay because it's so unstable
@@JulianAndresKlode Speedplay cleats are also expensive compared to shimano - you can have 3 new cleats for the price of one shimano. While I'm at it - the mechanical design of the speedplay is inherently unstable - you have the least material supporting that rocking motion as you are attached to the outside points of a circle as opposed to a SPD with to large platforms at the lateral extents. Coming from a mountain bike background I was immediately drawn to Speedplay due to clipping in and out very similar but having used both over a decent period I think for road Shimano is a much better system.🤷♂
And the cleats also wear out quite quickly. Super environmentally unsustainable
@@JulianAndresKlode I tried them and hate them, way too unstable for me.
@@thedownunderverse I really love how your sliding around like you're on ice in the Speedplay. It works around suboptimal bike fits quite well, really relaxed my knee issue.
With a proper fit, probably Keos are the way to go.
Funny I actually bought some new Shimano Ultegra pedals last weekend for this very reason. I noticed my right lower IT band was getting irritated, and cleat was getting noisy despite securely bolt and using dry teflon lube. Today was my first ride with him.
I've been using shimano spd-sl system and after I tried look for the first time, I can say now I prefer look system
The old Look Delta (pre Keo) platform has this issue, albeit not as bad. The Time ATAC MTB pedals did this too. My understanding was always as soon as you start pedaling the cleat will naturally go into whatever 'neutral' position your alignment is. I've run both of the aforementioned platforms back in the day and now Shimano SPD-SL since it came out 20 years ago, haven't had an issue. I suppose everyone is different, though.
Im selling some near new look atac pedals if you need some
My Time ATAC pedals don't do this,maybe yours are very worn,the Time road pedals are excellent.
@@reinholdachleitner2069Time explicitly markets lateral float as a feature, ±1.5mm on road and ±2.5mm on MTB.
So if you don't have lateral float on yours they'd be weirdly broken.
I run Assioma’s with the red cleats and there is no lateral float but they can pivot like you are taking about with the speedplay
My pedals came with yellow cleats. But they have so much float I had trouble unclipping because I had to rotate my foot so much before there was sufficient resistance to unclip. So I changed to blue cleats. Problem solved. Plus, since the rotational axis of the blue cleats is the bolt at the front (as compared to the center of the cleat on yellows) there is really no lateral float except that associated with the rotation about the front bolt.
what are the differences between the color yellow, blue and red cleats from shimano?
Hmmm. I tried this just now, put an old yellow cleats i replaced last year on the old shimano shoes, put it on the current pedals on my bike, a pretty old but still good 105 pedals, PD-5700. No lateral movement at all, just the float.
Is speedplay suitable for a place with lot of rain, by that i mean roads are often muddy , will it be difficult to engage everytime u have to keep your shoe on the ground
what is the recommend road pedal that you wish people would lean towards? What about time pedals?
I get pain and wiggles, and I've used look and now ultegra. So that's very intresting
I didn't use road pedals for very long, maybe 4-6 years, but, never noticed any sideways motion. Now, I've simply put MTB pedals on the road bike and use one shoe for everything.
I’ve gone to zero float cleat in the last month, and it improved my pedaling…it re-trains my pedaling kinetic from the foot up to the hip and posterior chain musculature..
and ruining your knees and hips. the pain you're feeling are ligaments.
@@super8hell I disagree. I've got a mashed knee joint and zero float gets the muscles that stabilize the knee trained rather than letting it flop around. I used to have aching knee joint for a couple of days after doing sprints.....
@@super8hell
1. I have the same presumption at first..but if you work with a good fitter that can set it properly, it works
2. Yes, a bike fitting is a two way process..both the fitter and you have the work to do, and your part is to train to get more flexible and stronger
@@phil_dstabilize..the key word 👍🏼
How do I know when and if I should go to the blue cleat?
I have used Shimano pedals for many years. I just tried what what is being shown in the video and I have no side movement that is being shown in this video. My cleats are about a year old and pedals are about 5 years old. How loose are the pedals in this video?
I don't know about old Speedplay pedals but the experience I have with the Wahoo Speedplay system is terrible. Have you ever noticed or had reports that after a couple of rides the pedal begins to move side to side, i.e., there's a clearance issue that, once clipped in, will lead to this very same dynamic Q-Factor adjustment whilst pedalling.
Dig the channel Neil! But, after a few hundred more miles on my SPD sl from like gen1, I do not see this as problem. I was a shop bike fitter for 10 year, serrotta trained, and constantly working with new clients over those years. Seen/saw a lot of fit issues.
So the more thought is put into this shimano issue, I don’t see it as that big a deal. I think of speed play, then olderTime pedals….right out the gate. I’m dating myself..
Shimano is simply more a “worldly”rotational feel instead of say an Alpine binding we all think of when talking “cleats” and look..
More to the point, would be what sort of watts is one loosing with this. That’s the convo IMO.. having rotation is not a bad thing what so ever. Especially when looking at your larger older client base.
Cheers keep it up.
I noticed this a few weeks ago when my shoe started to rub my crank while i pedaled until i slid my shoe outward
The back of my foot does this rubbing on the crank as my foot moves around in the pedal. It’s something I can’t really change, but a wider Q factor might mitigate it.
any suggestion for the mtb bike shoes?
I have read a lot of negative comments in this video about speedplay. I have been using speedplay for about five years. With the original speedplay I would have to change the cleat once a year due to a bit of Rockin. Not that big of a deal, cleats needs replacement regardless of brand or type of cleat. I recently switched to the Wahoo speedplay ones and I have noticed that they do not wear as fast as a old Speed play the cleat has very minoot Rockin and no visual grouting where in the cleat. I believe I can go another year. Don't know why people are having trouble with Wahoo Speed play of Rockin within a few rides or month. I'm sure it's riders fault
I use VP - look style pedal, with alloy body, the lateral movement about the same over the time..probably the pedal worn much slower than composite body one.
Will that makes a creaking noise once the pedal is worn out?
I am glad that my XT 8120 pedals display littie of this float slip factor .
I run the blue cleats cos i find the yellow float too big. Was not aware of the lateral movement and i have some doubts that it's actually a problem.
I use yellow cleats..have never ever felt any movement…but i will double check. My pedals are old too
I think it’s a really personal thing: everyone moves around a little different. You might automatically keep you feet straight or always to one side, then the wear on the carbon pedal is minimal.
Strange. Tried this on my setup (shimano red cleats with shimano pedals) and I don't get any of the movement at all. The tip of the triangle stays put and the rear is the one that pivots about +/- 6 degrees. It basically only allows the heal of the shoe to pivot and not the entire shoe/cleat moving laterally.
Do Shimano red cleats have any lateral float? I don't think this is a design flaw but that the yellow and blue cheats are designed for varying levels of angular and lateral float. This is a desired property and the metal pedals do not wear in the hole. They will also wear quite little at the back if the spring tension is not that strong. Increasing tension can compensate for clear wear in this area.
Shimano cleats seem to wear out due to walking on them. I've used speed play and much prefer Shimano.
Got some 20 yrs old aluminium spd-sl pedals that my dad used, 0 wear on the clip-in points
What about spd pedals? The mtb ones? Or egg beaters?
Are floating cleats just a band-aid for a problem that should be tackled elsewhere? To me, they allow movement whereby that movement may not be controlled effectively by the corresponding stabilizing muscles.....
What about those new pedals from Mid Foot Cycling?
newbie question. some of the raod bikes i saw they use mtb cleats pedals. the big question is WHY?
Do Time pedals have this type of float?
yes i know this exist, if they are too worn my knee can bend to the outside on some random pedal stroke without expecting it, result is pain in the knee, so i need to replace them after 1.5-2years. And some people call me crazy for doing this :-). I think this is mostly from manufacturers cutting costs from the pedals, if i remember the first pedals were from aluminium of steel.
SPD system for MTB does not have the side to side movement. I'm using it on the road aero bike with Shimano PD-ES600s pedals ;)
After about 95.000km I road another 5k with worn pedals. Having some knee problems and an outward heel mainly on the right foot. After buying a new bike I discovered that I should have replaced the pedals 5k kms ago. Shimano pedals almost do 100k kms. I use the yellow cleats.
Again important information from RCA thank you .
I ride with Shimano yellow, assumed the lateral float was part of the design. Can't really speak for time trialist or Tri riders, but as a MTB'er, IMHO for a non-expert, I don't think there really is an ideal cleat position for casual spinning vs grinding hard vs grinding off the saddle, so wouldn't every bit of flexibility, including lateral float be a good thing?
Used 2 use dura ace & ultegra pedals . 3 months ago l decided 2 go with the Time Xpro 12 & 15 pedals . So much better .
This is why I'm on Look pedals.
Float happens at the back of the pedal so you don't have this issue.
Hence why track sprinters will usually use Look over Shimano.
Neil doesn't know about Look pedals and it shows, they are not to be put in the same bag as Shimano.
This is how the blue cleats work. Float only at the back.
@@thedownunderverse I'm on grey ones. No play at the front with 4,5° of float, that's 2x more than the blue ones from Shimano.
These are different designs
I use the Shimano SPD pedal system on my bike. Would there be any wear issues over time with these.
I was just gonna ask that too. I run SPD on road
I use the XTR SPD pedals with the RX8 gravel shoes and get no lateral movement. The connection is very stiff. there is definitely float which is to be expected.
The mountain bike spd pedals don’t wear in that way, or not at all, but they are far less stable. With a lot of movement build in too. And, the are less stable, having tilt, because you are only attached one point. This doesn’t have to be a problem as some people need this freedom.
For the Shimano road pedals? Depends on you, if you pedal quite straight the wear on the Carbon might be minimal. The entry level metal SPD road pedals also don’t wear at all.
@@ivarbrouwer197 This is a popular misconception. On SPD (on a proper pedal - shoe combo) there are two additional contact points with the tread of the shoe and sides of the pedal body. Additionally, the two tread blocks left and right of the cleat usually made out of harder rubber, which don’t even compress much.
Unlike with road shoes and SPD-SL, on SPD there is a strong dependance on proper thread construction as well as how it interacts with the pedal body. My Raphas on XT pedals for example, have absolutely 0 rocking. Yet on those SQLab pedals same shoes (with or without supplied cleats) you can clearly see and feel rocking.
I rode shimano SPD SL pedals for a long time and always hated how hard they were to adjust. Speedplay pedals are so much better for me and the float is a lot more comfortable for me.
3 bolts instead of 2 ? Is this an issue with SPD cleats ?
That's why the blue is the best one, i like the red too.
I'm a many years user of LOOK going back to the early models in mid 80's, but also rode on SPDL fpr awhile. I think the trouble he reports here with lateral slip reminded me of the late 80's TIME pedals. Generally if your foot wants to push hard to inside or outside that much, your Q factor might be way off. Many times shorter legged riders might need a narrower crankset, and be able to carry on well with Shimano pedals? Just something to consider before putting all the blame on SPDL? My experience is that long legged/tall riders may not have as much problem? So that sloppy unwanted side slop could be a real clue you need to change your pedal Q factor?
Is that a gold chain on the BMC?
As much as there is that vaguery and sloppiness, would this not equate to *less joint stress, particularly in more mature folks that may not have the luxury of perfectly functional flexors or ligaments? Seems to me there could be some positive trade offs with that extra, lateral, float...?
I assume the Time cleats would be the same?
Ahhh.. that explains why my left pedal on the turbo has so much movement.
Good to know
Just to get this right he said the ideal Pedal would have rotational float, but no lateral float in the only Pedal system that exists is the Speedplay correct?
Speedplay has a similar issue, it's just not having lateral play on a horizontal, but it's rocking along the axis, because it's round. Don't know why Neil doesn't know.
So essentially your foot tilts left and right eventually.
Don't have that issue with my Look Keo's!
I Started out with the Look Keo pedals, went through a couple sets of cleats, but I then swapped over to Speedplay for the reason is I was consistently having trouble clipping in with the Looks. But with Speedplay , with the double sided entry I have had far fewer problems. But what I have found with speedplay was I tended to get a hotspot on the foot where the pedal sits in the cleat, on my feet, when I was a bit dehydrated, certainly a reminder to self to keep the fluids up to avoid the hot spot…
The blue SPD-SL cleats don't allow lateral movement of the cleat, only rotation.
Which still slowly wears out the pedal body at its tip. And then a little fore and aft movement of the cleat relative to the pedal occurs. Which causes noises.
Installing new cleats doesn't stop it. as both parties wear, the cleat and the pedal body.
Yes I experienced this to exactly as you say, even going down to Red cleats the wear was that much. I don't like the Speedplay system tho have used it, for a year and Look the cleats wears quick, I use Time and the factor to just put the cleat on + it finds it's own position is good tho you can adjust it sight, but it's over the big S or the Look & Speedplay for me. I don't think any pedal system is head and shoulders above them all
@@leedorney I'm curious to learn what your experiences with Speedplay pedals are that made you not like it. Were you riding the current version of the Zero pedals made by Wahoo?
@@horststorkebaum6475 No I was on the 'old' version. They're relatively expensive (cleats), you've got to grease them, theirs a lot to the clear - it's very intricate - it's got to be ultra exact upon installation, they're VERY SMALL. It's as tho the cleat should be the pedals and pedal the cleat, imo they're too heavy, (cleat + pedal) though I'm thinking that's for the strength. The idealogy is great, I rode them for 2yrs. That said, you can get a similar experience with other formats like Look, Spdsl's and Time which I'm riding now. What's your experience with them?
@@horststorkebaum6475 btw you do get lateral movement with the blue spdsl cleat!
Thanks @leedorney! I've tried all major road pedal brands except for the current Time. I'm now on Wahoo Speedplay Zero since they were released, and that is the best pedal system for me.
Yes, you have to keep the cleats clean and lube them with some wax-based lubricant.
And yes, I use self-made plates of stainless steel (1 mm thick) in-between the cleat and the base plate in order to eliminate wear to the base plate which then creates wobble and noises.
That said, they have been working flawlessly and noise-free for me. I log around 10,000 km per year on the road, a lot of it in rain and wet conditions. So maintaining my bike and equipment is a necessity anyway, it doesn't matter much to me that I have to add the cleats to the list of things I've to take care of.
I replace their cleats less than once per year.
And my knees absolutely love them. 🙂
Neill is a lighthouse of information 👏🏻.
Thisbis actually a good characteristic. This movement helps people to avoid knee pain and tendon irritation. This is not a flaw, that's the whole purpose!
My Shimano pedals would wear down in just over a year, because I move my toes around a lot. Look pedals wear a lot slower for me, up to about four years. Use a metal SPD SL pedal instead of carbon, and there’s no wear in the pedal at all.
As suggested Speedplay could be a solution but they exhibit a lot of wear in their bearings and need to be serviced often, and they have tilt build in which isn’t ideal either. I find speedplay pedals highly impractical. Try if you like mtb spd pedals first to see if you tolerate that before considering speedplay’s
In another video, he isn't a fan of Speedplay either. Maybe he should design a pedal system.
I was wondering if the metal pedals had the same wear issue as the composite ones. I just looked at my old Ultegra 6700 metal pedals with over 10 years of wear and the paint has definitely worn through, but that's about it. My new composite 105 pedals still look like new (only around 1,500 miles on those)
@@dperreno the wear will be different per person. I think I move a lot with my toes. My Shimano carbon pedals have worn down after +15000 km. My Look Keo carbon pedals lasted +3 years. It’s totally imaginable you will not wear your pedals down, in a few more years then I do, or at the same rate. There’s no way to tell.
@@ivarbrouwer197 Yep, I'm sure it varies a lot by person. I was just happy to see that it doesn't appear to be a problem on my pedals. :-)
Red cleats, high pressure tires because I hate any flex or movement.
time pedals from the late 80s to now have had this feature
Carbon is actually a very poor material choice for pedals when the feet need float and or tilt. Friction eats away the carbon. I was quite mad at Shimano because my pedals wouldn’t last more then 15 months.
Which pedals did you run?
@@BIGGY44 ulterga, then 105.
Now running Look Keo Blade, they last a lot longer, but certainly not indefinitely.
The Speedplay rocking, particularly with the borked design of the new Wahoo ones is a much greater issue IMO. I used to use Speedplay, but they got knackered ... new Wahoo ones are unusable. Moved to TIME and not very satisfied. Only pedal system I truly got on with were Bebops, but they got run out of business by patent trolls Speedplay.
Ive had zero issues with red cleats personally. In fact red cleats eliminated pain in my lower leg from atheritus and lack of ankle stability.
It’s not a design flaw. It’s a design feature. Time cleats and pedals have lateral float built in to some cleat options. Unlike Look pedals, Shimano’s pivot point for rotation is at the center of the cleat. They do this by making the tip of the cleat narrower. Doing so also means that there is lateral float. See this GCN video at 14:12 in where that is explained better. czcams.com/video/MLyq5nd3phI/video.html
Well..........after riding on these pedals/cleats, I absolutely see/feel difference between LOOK and these, and the cleat didn't make my foot go from side-to-side, it's a great pedals, lighter than my LOOK.
I’m glad I’m using Crank Brothers pedals
Keywin pedals meet almost all the requirements. They’re obscure though.
Shimano Blue only please.
Go SPD?
why they never mentioned spd system at all... I see lot of roadies use them instead any road system. I used it too for years and it was fine.. I am not performance cyclist so I do not need top power transfer but I still enjoy being cliped in... I switched to spd sl and I think it is actually worse...
Same here. SPD on road.
It's funny that whereas Neill loves Speedplay and here is querying Shimano, there's another well-known and very, err, vocal bike fitter from the UK who hates Speedplay, loves Shimano.
Both of you love Lakes, BTW