How long to do EV batteries last? Lets look at a 6 year old Renault Zoe 22kWh electric car.
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- čas přidán 24. 02. 2022
- In this video, I plug in our diagnostic scanner into this 6 year old Renault Zoe and show what the BMS (battery management system) reports.
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Thanks for easing my mind over battery degradation, my family keep asking how long my battery will last, they think buying an electric car means that I’ve been duped out of my money.
I wasn't aware lower mileage EV's often have slightly higher battery degradation than high mileage EV's. But the way you explained it makes sense. Another informative video!
I tend to disagree on that one. EV's with very good battery temperature and charge management systems, don't show this trend. General Motors Spark EV and Bolt, do have liquid cooling and heating system for the battery pack and the inboard charger never charges the battery passed a threshold that would accelerate its degradation. I own a 2016 Spark EV and it had only 19 000 kilometres when I bought it in 2020 and its battery is in top shape now in March 2022, with 35 000 kilometres. I keep it plugged whenever I don't use it so the battery management system takes good care of its protégé
@@JacquesPPage Yes it’s incorrect. Most modern EVs have a buffer at the top of at least 5% and sensible EV owners only charge to 80% unless they’re planning on a long trip the following day. The Zoe might be an exception being a short range EV. It’s cycles and calendar age that degrade batteries. A 22kWh Zoe with 150,000 miles on the clock is going to be a lot more degraded because that’s a minimum of 1250 cycles of such a small battery. The proof is in the video - this battery is close to 100% after 6 years of. light use. 25,000 miles = about 210 cycles - 250 cycles.
If the cells are type Li 18650 cells or similar construction leaving them at 100% literally destroys. Got lots of experience with lithium packs for rc aircraft and drones.
Cars should have protection to discharge the cells to 3.7v volts as leaving them at 4.2v is not good
Looks like they dont fully charge the cells anyway
So its not really the mileage that is a factor but the user charging routine of the lower mileage vehicle that is the degredation reason for lower mileage cars.
Lower mileage cars that are only normally charged to 80% except when balancing charging or going for a run won't deteriorate any more than a high mileage car?
Thank you so much, Matt, for yet another great video! Just to get some more stats here in the comments field: I own a 2019 ZE40 R110 with 11K miles and it’s at 96% (I always charge it to 100% but never leave it there for days)
Great video. Thanks Matt. Interested to understand more about this topic for my battery leased 35k miles 64 plate. Like others amazed by the range that your vehicle is showing in the cold, interested in the device you have, and wondering how to check for BMS updates. I tried a Konnwei OBD dongle and just couldn't get CanZE to connect. I'll be very glad when there's a decent second hand EV servicing network to tell us these things. Renault dealers pretty useless on Zoe help.
Loving the Zoe after 20 months. A perfect second car (which gets used in preference to the ICE all the time).
I like these videos. It's good to see what the batteries are like
Great video Matt thank you. We live in France also have a 2014 22kwh Zoé that I purchased from Renault Poitiers with just 7000km on the clock. It's been faultless over the last year and 11,000 km driving in all weathers, including a regular 110 km long commute. The 2 pedal reset shows a max theoretical range of 203 km / 123 miles - interestingly this has increased slightly since I collected the car, due in my opinion to the pack rebalancing after a long period of inactivity. This is our 2nd Zoé and it's proving to be the perfect frugal hackabout, but we are on the hunt for something bigger and longer range now. Please keep the content coming!
Sounds like we live a bit south of you in the Deux-Sevres. Good to hear the Zoe has performed well. Renault generally have not had a great reputation for reliability of their ICE powered cars, the Zoe seems to be repairing that and the new Megan e-tech looks great and is getting favourable reviews. We’ve had a Kia e-Niro since March 2019, so one of the first batch into France. We got it from the main dealer in Niort (Cachet Giraud) who subsequently dropped Kia but this hasn’t been a problem as Groupe Barbier (La Rochelle) opened a Kia dealership in Niort next door to their Hyundai franchise. The car has been great with only the passenger side wing mirror being replaced under warranty when it failed to fold back on locking the car. I am taking the car in for its 60,000 km service this afternoon. If you are looking for something a bit bigger and longer range then I can recommend the Kia...You are welcome to look at Kia e-Niro Diaries Encore on CZcams where I record the long term ownership experience..on road trips around France, to UK and Germany.
Hy! Do you want to sell the car?
Great video Matt. I've got a Zoe ZE80 and absolutely love it. I've never had a proper charging point at home. I've got a £130 charger from Amazon and only ever charge it at 6 or 8 amps every other night and keep it generally between 30 and 70%. We take it on long journeys, but generally use it for commuting to work and back. It's a brilliant car.
I was looking for a guide for a older Renault Zoe and your video is very informative, thankyou so now I know what to look for in a 2nd hand Zoe.
Glad it helped. Other Zoe videos you may find useful czcams.com/users/GoGreenAutossearch?query=zoe
Also www.gogreenautos.co.uk/buyers-guide/renault-zoe-guide
Great video as always.
Just about to buy a Zoe so this was really helpful information on something I knew nothing about! :)
I'm hoping to go electric at some point in the future, and information of this kind is invaluable. The Zoe seems a great car if you can live with the limited range.
ZE 40 has 150 miles plus or minus 20 miles. If you can get a 3-5 year old one, battery-owned (ZE40i) you will have enjoyable and inexpensive motoring. Just remember that many of them will only charge at maximum of 22kW, so if you go on a long journey, it is 1 hour charging for every 60 miles range you need.
Really informative video, can't wait to join #teamEV #teamMZSEV
I bought a 65 plate 22kw i model (non lease battery) and it showed 63% SOH until I got the BMS update. Now it’s showing 98% after 50000 miles. Just passed it’s MOT with no issues. The original SOH of the battery is probably why I got it at a bargain £6k !
Good buy. That's the way to get them.
Yup, you did well. People have paid that much for the car without the battery, which they then need to lease or buy for a large amount of dosh.
Ah the fabled 98%. You know they all do that after the BMS update.... its a lie. You'll soon see the SOH dropping.
Hi. After the bms update your range went up too?
@@suatsert3523 It seems to be calculating the range correctly. It's been getting 3.5 miles/KWh and about 80 miles to a charge which is about right for the 22KWh battery.
Good to watch. Best regards
Thanks for the information and useful videos. We purchased a new 21 plate Zoe 110 Iconic and my wife loves it. She manages 4 miles per kWh with the heating and seat on and it's done 2568 miles with only a tail light getting condensation in it as a fault. We keep it below 80 (and above 20%), unless it's being used, and the information I've read is you get the most cycles between 65-75%, but that would be hard to do in the real world. We're not too concerned that it's lost its NCAP rating...
Maybe a van next, to convert to a campervan, so we can travel for free...
Another brilliant informative video. Thank you
Thanks for another informative video
Great information, thank you.
Loved the video:)
Thanks, great video !
Very informative - thanks.
As a low mileage user, I am keeping the batteries charged at between 40 and 80% when the car's not used for a few days, although they are occasionally held at 85%. As my Fiat 500e has an active battery management system and 10% between useable and maximum capacity, I hope that my car fares as well as your Renault Zoe. Good video, thank you!
Top explanation! A degradation is prevented by one magic rule of the manufacturers BMS: Never discharge or fully charge to 0 or 100%. That is what keeps them alive for a very very long time! The usable range is somehow always set between 5% and 95%. Also 100% SOC Status means ~95% charged. But even without owning a car you can experience this effect: With your personal electronics! I had now 2 Thinpad Computers for the last 15 years: The integrated Battery Management has allowed to set the max. charge percentager; I have always set it to 90%. I had never replaced any battery on both computers during this long period of time. And their battery capacities are still fine. Even on my 2006 Model.
It needs to be user settable for us geeks. So for example i could set my ev charger to only charge to 90% unless I'm going on a long journey. True the manufacturers BMS will not go to actual 100% but its always a compromise between battery life and headline range.
Can you set it so it switches off at a certain level of capacity? (eg 90%)
Thanks for such a clear and informative video. We have a 2017 Zoé and it is a real workhorse, at the moment it's on 135000k and certainly feeling as good as ever. I hope we can find someone to do a diagnostic like this when we come to change it up. We are in France also, and currently awaiting delivery of a Tesla model 3. So now I'm going to search through your list of video and see what you think of it. Than mes again.
Excellent information thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for such an interesting and informative video so well don and much appreciated.
Kind regards
Mike Western
Had 2014 Dec 22.4 kw hour , 43 kw ac max charging motor . On sale in sept 2020 had 45 000 miles approx , had no noticeable degradation , despite being 43 ac charged and 22 Kwan charged for most of its life . Actually believe had better range when sold than when new as Renault did bms update which allowed better range when updated in third year at service
I like your summation at the end. Basically battery degradation is overblown. However it’s not just the Gen 1 LEAFs that have issues. Even the current LEAF does not have thermal battery management. Itks on my Don’t Buy list for unwary consumers.
Very informative.
Nice informative video, thanks!
Vdry interesting and informative video thanks
Good informative vid :)
That was a most interesting and informative video. 2% degradation seems to be bucking the trend but is in line with my Zoe experience which was a 2014 car that I recently traded in . That was indistinguishable from when I bought it four years earlier and I would estimate that it had only degraded a similar amount to the one you are looking at. I would never have seen 70odd miles at 63% charge without resetting though, so I assume you had done that. I have heard that you can recover a mistreated battery. If it has been abused like you said and shows some degradation, treating it well can sometimes see it recover to some extent. Thanks, Tim
Gom isn't a good indicator of much. Don't rely on it
Great info many thanks.
Very useful thanks
Just thought I'd comment as I own a 2016 22kw Zoe that has done 53k miles have had her from new battery helth is between 97% and 95% depending on SOC and temperature when you measure the helth according to CanZE
This is now our car featured here. Great to hear and see this, although in fairness to Matt he had already shown us this information before we purchased it.
I can also add that with 0 miles showing and flashing many flashing lights and beeps there's still 3% left in the battery pack.
Hi John. Been pushing the Zoe to the limit then!
@@GoGreenAutos just the once. Rolled onto our driveway with 0 miles 🥴
Good to hear that
Good information expelling some of the battery myths. My 30kWh Leaf according to leafspy is at 96.5% after 27000 miles and 5years old. It has a 3.3kw onboard charger and I try to keep within 20-80%SOC. If I have a long trip then I do charge to 100% but drive as soon as the charge has stopped.
Most battery myths come from those with zero EV ownership experience, and can be debunked easily.
@@Brian-om2hh Like?
@@Brian-om2hhbut so much bs from ev enthusiasts.
A eye opener as I'm looking for a electric car soon .
Plenty of other videos on this channel about battery life. See czcams.com/users/GoGreenAutossearch?query=battery
Very informative thank you
Open circuit voltage is slightly higher than the voltage you'll get under load. Also, the voltage drops slightly when state of charge drops. I.e. multiplying open circuit voltage with Ah will not yield an accurate number for how much energy the battery can supply.
thanks ...lots of really useful info there. clears up some of the myths around EV batteries.
Good information thanks
very informative, thank you
Good information.
Very good to know battery packs last longer than first thought
Thanks, same experience here - 2014 Zoe with 100k km, battery is still at 95% (!!!). Can't believe it.
Good info.
Really useful
good info thanks
Brilliant!
I have a 63 Reg Zoe Expression and it has done 24500, and has a battery state of health of 98%, I checked it today.
Thank you. Our car is the same as this one.
Good video, thanks
Very interesting about battery degradation
cool video.
This has increased my confidence in buying a secondhand ev like the Zoe 👍
Plenty of similar videos on the channel too.
Diesel driver here (yeah, i know...) I'm thinking about a second-hand EV as a local runabout (and use the diesel for long journeys). This is certainly useful information about battery life. The cost still scares me, a lot...
Don't be scared. Have an EV since ten months, basically I switched from paying to the petrol company to paying to the bank but the grand total is definitely less (on 28000 km/year). The running cost is ridiculously low. Longer journeys is more of a hassle than with a petrol car, but in no way unbearable. The worst part is the payment for fast charging (you need one solution per company, generally you can't simply pay with a bank card) and the rate of broken fast chargers.
The driving experience - you realize how it must have been on the railways when the steam locomotives were phased out... you won't regret going electric! No way I'm going back.
@@altoclef6688 Thank you for this reasoned reply. I still feel I would keep the dinosaur burner for the longer journeys, and use an EV as a local runabout.
Aside: Are you a viola player?
@@Soruk42 I am a very bad viola player but yes, I play the viola. Main instrument is the piano. But I want to promote the viola, it's an often overlooked instrument with a very pleasant sound.
Haha you’ll not want to go back to diesel after driving an ev!
The cost diesel scared me, driving EV since Nov 2023 after my old diesel failed beyond economic repair. So far in 8 months and 12000 miles I have had 1/3 “fuel” costs and that’s with public charging as well as about 50% peak rate home charging. Literally a game changer! Oh and so much more enjoyable to drive.
I've got a 2015 and I've not seen any real degradation. Range changes all the time depending on the weather..
The BMS update is a nightmare to get Renault to do especially from franchise dealers as it takes days to complete. Fortunately videos like this help..
Check the heating works as mine was faulty and fortunately got it fixed under warranty. The the air con heater unit cost £1500. I couldn't believe it failed on a car that was only 4 years old and had 22k on the clock.
Apart from the those first issues it's a brilliant town/second car..
Don't buy it if you intend to use the charging network it's just not good enough..
You have to use the nominal voltage of the cells which is 3.6V which makes it a 345V battery. Which makes it roughly 24.36kWh but Zoe is probably keeping 10% - 15% in reserve so roughly 22kWh capacity.
That isn't a reserve....
Hi Matt, where and which scanner would you recommend have a eniro 64kw.
Great content.
My Zoe is at 98%. Also keep in mind this is air cooled so is holding well,but new ones liquid cooled should last a lot more do to the advantages of keeping battery at optimal temperature during all external temperature variations
Good information
This was very interesting information - planing on getting a Zoe sometime in the future!
Tanks:)
Thanks. I think ambient temps are a major determinant of pack longevity. UK has a mild climate, but I suspect if you worked in Arizona or Spain you would observe a lot more degradation.
Yes correct. Californian cars are the same too. We're lucky in the UK that we have a EV friendly climate....for now!
@@GoGreenAutos I live in the SF Bay Area and my 2017 e-Golf (~40,000 miles on odometer, purchased new in March 2018) is at about 29 - 30 kWh usable capacity since 20,000 miles. I rarely charge to 100% and in super hot temps limit pack to 80% SoC. But if I lived in Southern California I am sure the degradation would be worse.
So I think it might be better for the lower mileage driver to charge the car to 80% and charge a few times more. Same usage for the driver but less stress for the battery?
Can they set the top voltage for charging to help it from degrading? That car is great. How many miles can that car drive when fully charged?
Hi thanks for your video, does the newer shape Leaf have battery thermal management.
Andy
Very informative, a ZE40 60000km 4.5y old car, driver
Very good video! Exacly what I was looking for! I'm just considering to buy 6 years old 22kWh battery Zoe. I was expecting also a driving range test and how much it could drive, when battery is full, and whats the reality.
The range you can achieve with a full battery at different average driving economies is:
4.8 mpkWh (super efficient city driving) = 105 miles
4.5 mpkWh (efficient summer driving) = 99 miles
4.0 mpkWh (average driving) = 88 miles
3.5 mpkWh (efficient winter driving) = 77 miles
3.0 mpkWh (very cold winter driving) = 66 miles
CZcams won't let me post what I really want to say, Great video though 😊😊😊
Thanks Matt, good to know. We have the same year Zoe, is there a simple way to determine which version of the BMS software is running on the car, for example using the OBD?
I'm not not sure. With my scanner I can read the firmware level/ID, but then I've kept no records of others so don't know what code is the updated version. I've always done it by doing a two pedal reset which resets the driving economy and then can judge it from the displayed range and also looking at the battery SoH.
Useful video. take home message...don't charge your car unless you need to use it next day.
Our 22kwh zoe is a 14 plate, and when I last checked, it was 97% soh. I was shocked. Honestly didn't think the car would last this long but its still perfect. I will be sad to see it sell this spring. But we need something bigger. Older zoes are absolutely brilliant.
Good to hear.
What is the minste of that zoe? I am interested to buy an old used Zoe as cheep as possible
How do you get the BMS update?
There is also a BMS update for the earliest ZE50 Zoes. So if you experience poor range, it could be the solution.
Any idea how you can tell if it needs it or not? I'm looking at a 22 plate that was registered July 22.
@@cingramuk I don't know the versions of the software, but if you find out it might be possible to see which version the car has using the CanZe app. Otherwise you know if you get poor range and/or it takes very long time to charge from 99 to 100%. That said, I don't think a '22 or even a '21 model should be affected by this. It should already have updated firmware from the factory.
You need to use the nominal voltage (3,6v) and you'll get correct kwh.
average of 20.9kWh/100 miles looks really good.
~160 km on one charge - not bad for a city car of this price.
You can not multiply the battery package voltage with the current capacity and get the total stored energy. This is due to that voltage is not constant during discharge...
Your formula is right. P=UI (Power=Voltage*Current) and E=Pt (Energy=Power*time). So yeah, Voltage*Current*Time = V*A*h = Wh. the you Divide by 1000 to get kWh.
What about having a Webasto heater installed to help with the winter range decrease ?
Thank you.
There are a few CZcams videos posted by Mitsubishi iMIEV owners who have fitted a heater with good results. Sounds like a sensible idea for a 22kWh Zoë but not seen it done yet.
I wondered why the battery on my 2016 Zoe 40 failed after 5 years with just 14k on the clock. Seems likely the previous owner kept it charged up fully and hardly used it (it had less than 10k on the clock when I bought it at 4yrs old) I wasn't impressed by the Renault dealer charging me £300 to upgrade the BMS (especially now I know it was to fix a bug that was Renault's responsibility) and then £120 to tell me what the dash display had already said i.e. that the traction battery would no longer charge. On the plus side it was a leased battery so I got a replacement free, and Renault agreed to refund most of my costs ... and provided a leased car while mine was being fixed, horrible to drive an ICE again !!
This is unusual to need a new battery on a ZE40. But yes, leaving the car for long periods at 100% SoC is the worst thing you can do to a pack. That is why I always buy high mileage EVs for my own use - they're cheaper and have better packs.
@@GoGreenAutos that's really good to know that higher mileage is probably better (if SOC is still high)
As I am unsure how long my car is going to last (turbo oil feed pipe had cracked and let all the oil out was driven for shot time with no oil, I had engine wiring loom problem a the time as well didn't alert me of the low/oil low pressure condition until my brake booster assist stopped working because the vacuum pump wasn't to happy not having oil, all fixed for now but no oil for short time is still isn't very good for a engine and can destroy it self at a later date as the bearings eat away if they got damaged when there was no oil)
so looking at an ev car to reduce fuel costs and impeding "emission 50 yard zones £12 day when you cross into different areas" so need a car that can do 100-130miles a day ideally from one charge (ideally with heater use included if needed) i got a bit of research ahead I guess
Battery's usually have slightly more capacity than what they actually sell them as (the lower end of the battery is usually reserved so not to discharge the battery to much and damage it)
What is Renault's warranty on owned battery packs?
Would be interested to see your mg battery
Great video once again. Many thanks!
Do you know how the brake fluid maintenance on these Zoes is done? Is something we can do on our own, any workshop can do it like on any ice car or it really needs to be done by Renault dealership?
Many thanks
The Zoe has a unique braking system. A partial fluid change can be done by any workshop but a full change can only be done by a Renault dealer and it expensive.
@@GoGreenAutos thank you
Mine was supposed be changed going by Renaults recommened service schedule of every 4 year's ( 72,000 miles) . But i asked my Renault dealer while it was in for a service to check the brake fluid for moisture and the test came back as ok for that test .
So this year I may look at having the fluid changed while it's in for service come June this year.
They lock out the Traction power pack when doing the brake fluid , It's cheaper to try and get say a service and brake fluid changed done at the same time.
DSG Morecambe show the price for Brake fluid change at £269.
It pays to look around as most Renault dealers have different prices for service , brake pads fitted , etc
Useful video to debunk myths. I get a lot of very polarised (pun???) EV videos in my feed, arguments between unreconstructed petrolheads and ardent EV-ers. Me, I still drive a Non-ULEZ compliant diesel (occasionally) as it doesn’t make sense to scrap a perfectly good car. I guess this comment may draw some trolling ….
I do wonder if the updated BMS is just unlocking some extra capacity of the battery to save Renault having to replace under the battery lease agreement?
I think that's OK- they were probably being cautious and waiting to see how real world use would affect batteries. Now they have more data, they have the confidence to unlock a bit more capacity, which is helpful for us as owners.
I think your figures are correct. They give a total battery capacity of 26.6kWh which, for a 22kWh Z0E, seems about right.
Nice video. I'm surprised you have so much range in the cold weather. My 2016 Zoe with about the same mileage only gets about 80 miles range in this weather and in summer i can get 107 miles. How do I check I have the latest BMS?
If the car is showing that kind of range, you have the latest BMS. But if you want to double check, you can buy an OBD2 dongle and use the CanZE app to check. Plenty of CZcams videos on this.
Interesting result, however the SOH as a % is not quite informative without knowing how it's measured by the car, which could be as crude as simply counting the number of charge cycles to make an (gu)estimate. It also matters what the car compares the current values to, is that the values of this particular battery pack when it was new, or to some arbitrary factory setting. Any ideas on how Renault determines the SOH?
i am not at all upset keep up the good work .I am thinking of going to an e/v do you take petrol cars in p\x regards chris
Yes can do. But you'll probably get a better price selling on motorway.co.uk
Hello Friend. Greetings from Portugal. Can you confirm which version of BMS you have installed? Usually there are two ECUs LBC and LBC2. Thanks and regards.
We don't do BMS updates. They go to the local Renault dealer for that. But saying that, we've not send one in for a year or so.
ive heard a renault Zoe 22kwh has done 600,000 miles on original battery- not sure how true that is. I had a 40kwh zoe and I did 50,000 miles in 2 years and it was 97% SOC
2013 plate nissan leaf 110000 miles on the clock and 11 bars left on the battery with range of 70-80 miles in summer. Not bad to be honest, there are a good few years left in my car yet.
Yes that is good for an older Leaf...but its because yours has had more use than the typical.
@@GoGreenAutos Yes it is my main car, I use it for work and going out to town shopping etc etc. It gets charged to 100% everyday and goes down to about 30-40% battery everyday.
The amount of high speed charging will also have an effect degradation. The size of the buffers is also a factor.
The vast majority of EV owners will charge at home 95% of the time, mainly because it's cheaper and more convenient. Rapid charging usually only gets used on those longer trips, which happen 2 or 3 times a year for most.
The reality is that for the vast majority of cars (i.e. in the real world), rapid charging makes no measurable difference. I know of ex-taxi EVs that have had over 6,000 rapid charges and their packs are no worse others.
@@GoGreenAutos But what about Teslas, Porches etc. that the owners charge in 350kw chargers from 80 to 100 percent because of “range-anxiety” on their way home from work? Surely that would have a larger impact?
@@joelcarterramadge183 Yes that probably would have an impact. Only time will tell. But owners shouldn't be rapid charging over 80% SoC as that is just inefficient use of time and also blocks the charger for others.
@@Brian-om2hh big generalisation going on there. I commuted 320mi round trip each weekend for 3 years, plenty of rapid charging 😁
Sounds great I think?
My Q90 ZE 40 new in June 2017 ( 4 years 8 months old ) has done 57,000 miles and the SOH is 91%.
I never charge more than 100% unless on a long trip , So the car sits around 50%- 60% most of the time.
Looking at mileage and other comments from owners I know on a Zoe forum it seems that maybe more miles driven add to a lower state of health over time.
Then owners that have done less miles over the same time period.
Well that's interesting and goes against what makes sense. I charge my model 3 to 90 once or twice a week but often wonder if that's a bit hight especially when leaving it at 90 for over 24 hrs sometimes
@@hibbs79
The battery chemistry & cooling on the model 3 is different to the Zoe , plus the Zoe only has air cooling to cool the battery.
Tesla say charging up to 90% on the Model 3 is ok.
But Renault do not give any information on what to charge up to at all on the Zoe.
That's probably why they went down the battery rental route when the Zoe first came out .
And the battery degradation effects of long term usage was still not known back then.
I know other Zoe's owners with same age car but low mileage like Matt's shown in the video above don't seem to suffer much battery degradation over time.
When the Zoe first came out the battery was leased and the battery warranty for a battery leased Zoe was covered all the time the battery was leased.
My Zoe is battery owned so comes with a 100,000 mile warranty or until the SOH goes below 66%.
I purchased it to drive it till it dies or I win a Tesla model 3.
( Driving till it dies is more likely)👍
I had an ampera which I ran until 8 years old and 80k miles. Battery degradation was negligible, range was as when new