IS SHARPENING WORTH IT? KNIFE EDGE RETENTION TESTING
Vložit
- čas přidán 17. 07. 2024
- ATTENTION!! READ DESCRIPTION!! ⬇️
Apparently CZcams said this video is not suitable for all viewers! Let me know what was so offensive! CZcams is hurting themselves by not letting small creators make a couple bucks off their video. Videos cost money to produce no matter how small. Not sure why this video gets banned from adds when their is crap all over youtube that still earns a buck. Unbelievable. If you want to help small creators like me who care about the community, and produce QUALITY content, that is family friendly, please subscribe. And help other small creators by watching, and subscribing to their channels. Otherwise, small creators who are family friendly, who make videos about things other than boosted boards will vanish from youtube altogether. CZcams censorship is here! Thanks for watching and reading.
Is sharpening to 8000 grit worth it for an edc blade? I test a 600 grit edge vs an 8000 grit edge. Ill let you decide what edge is better.
Remember these are edc knives not straight razors. I can see the benefit to sharpening a straight razor to 8000 grit. For an edc blade it doesn't really make sense for me. It took 35 minutes to sharpen the spyderco resilience to 8000, including stone soaking time.
As a comparison, it only took me 5 minutes to sharpen the spyderco tenacious to 600 grit.
LINKS-
how to make a strop
• HOW TO MAKE A KNIFE SH...
$7 knife testing
• SHARPENING A $7 KNIFE ... - Zábava
Sorry forgot to mention in the video, both knives are 8cr13mov steel. 😀
OUTDOORS55 Could you help me identify a Spyderco I've had for I can't even remember how long or where I picked it up?
It is all stainless, VERY plain. There is no "Spyder" anywhere on the case or blade...
It is a typical lock-back type,
Blade is plain edge.. about 2.5" or a barely over 7cm...
The blade is stamped Spyderco on one side and "Seiki-Japan" on the other...
1: Real or some knock-off?
2: Model? (looks sort of like the "Police" model~,however zero serrations)
3: Steel? It looks like a stainless of some sort to me..
Happy to send / post a photo somewhere if that would help!!
Thank you for any assistance brother! 🙏🏻👍🏻
It's hard to say without seeing it. Do you have instagram?? I don't know much about identifying real or knockoffs. I think, all real spydercos have the spyderco on the blade. I had seen a video several years ago about how to identify real vs fake spydercos. It gave all the different spyder designs they use. I can't remember where I saw it though. Again I may be wrong but, I think spyderco uses the spyder on the blade as a type of guard against forgery. The spyderco logo stamped on the blad is very detailed under magnification and has a very specific design. Although I don't know if that was the case with older ones.
OUTDOORS55 sorry for the delayed reply-- took my buddy Odin in my thumbnail pic there swimming today... it's really hot here - have to keep him fit, but heat kills dogs really fast... so a good ocean swim is excellent not only for him, his coat, his skin and his happiness... but added benefit for dad is all the girls want to play with him.. symbiotic relationship!
I don't have Instagram anymore.
I do have LinkedIn and Pinterest
@@OUTDOORS55 Can you please make a video, Edge Trailing vs Edge Leading strokes in a Stone in Sharpening ?
DevInvest There are counterfeit Spyderco knives especially on eBay. Contact Spyderco and they will identify your knife.
Regardless of this outcome, sharpening is very therapeutic to some, including ME.. 😎
Intelligent approach and a well designed test. Thanks!
Thanks for putting in all that work. Interesting results.
Great video I thought you did this test video really well keep up the good work 👍🏻
Haha thanks! I'd like to do more of these with different steels. Just gotta grow more arm hair lol.
Love the dark wood furniture you got there. Good taste.
Thanks my friend! Its a table I made years ago out of scrap I got off a job. Still going strong😀
I work as a senior lead tech for a telecom company and during installs any knife comes in handy.
I carried a crkt m16 first gen for about 10yrs on the job. Cutting boxes, 0 gauge triple insulated copper, packages, etc I found regardless of how I sharpened at home I'd need to sharpen again during work. I used a 1000 grit stone at home and maybe a coarse diamond sharpener for any burrs. Cutting into that thick copper sometimes I would get a small one here or there usually at the end of the tanto. I'd carry a smiths carbide/ceramic quick sharpener while on the job and it lasted me for 10yrs. Knife is still good but I started to conceal carry and a big knife was just in my way
I now carry a benchmade mini griptillian for edc and work. I find the same method best for my line of work and pretty extensive use at times.
When I'm not working a project or expecting a lot of task I carry the kershaw shuffle 2. Opens my beer, cuts the limes, and handles any miscellaneous task the wife may think she needs AND I won't cry if it's busted up. It's not a working knife
I pretty much have the same problem. Any knife I carry usually needs sharpening halfway through the day. And usually when I get home I don't feel like spending 40 min sharpening. A quick working edge is all I need.
Really interesting to see that there is a difference, not a huge one but still I'll take any extra retention I can get. Thanks for doing this.
Thanks for watching 👍
Awesome! Try doing an edge retention test with/without microbevels
When I first learned to sharpen knife blades I would move to the second stone before I had a sharp blade and the apex was correct. I would work through 4300 grit and then strop. I had a mirror finish. When observed through a microscope, my edge was so flat it looked like an interstate highway. The moral of the story, you can have a mirror image but not a sharp blade. You must have a sharp edge before you move on from your first stone. R
I'm pretty much in that phase now . . . learning that a little patience gives much better results.
Yes, very true. I made a reference to that fact in another video. Mirror polish doesn't mean anything unless your knife blade is apexed. Thanks for the comment!
AD4MRick
OMG I've done the same, too quick to change to the next grit. I 😐
that is why I have a rig i find my angle then test the edge and keep going it even works on larger blades
You tube is getting ridiculous regarding what content is or isn't offensive. I am going to find out which advertisers are complaining abt these types of vids and let them know that I will be boycotting their products until they cut their crap. Ty for this vid, I WAS NOT OFFENDED.
I dont know what happened with this video. Its happening everywhere though. Hopefully they straighten it out soon. Thanks for that comment my friend👍
I certainly didn't get my feelings hurt. What the...
great vids by the way man.
First, your videos have inspired me to try knife making. Thank you. Next, a question. What is the blue tape you use? I've seen it on other videos. Just keep doing these please. Great information
David Bratcher painters tape. Removes easily with no adhesive left behind
Nice comparison, though I would like to see a few runs to confirm the precision and ensure that difference actually is significant. It seems reasonable in any case.
Id like to try it a few more time as well. Just gotta grow some more arm hair. Thanks for watching!
In my estimation, this was a fair enough test. The results are actually somewhat what you would expect across the board when you think of time and labor you put into something. You get a huge amount of benifits up front with the lower grits, and as you move up, the level of grit VS the sharpness and retention sort of asymtotes. I was still impressed enough with the benifits of the extra sharpening that I think it's worth it. I mean, the tenacious and resilience aren't even blades that hold tip top edges, so this makes quite an impression.
Edit! Really good video! I guess originally I thought that went without saying lol
Depends on the steel and depends on the task. Generally, high carbide steels like s90v like a more toothier edge to get better edge retention since it acts as a saw and exposed carbides can cut longer. Low carbide steels like Aeb-l, 14c28n prefer a more polished edge and do better with it. Steels in between? I guess it depends on steel by steel bases. Some might do better with a toothier edge and some with a polished one and sometimes it doesn't really make that much of a difference. People have done tests and you can go of those or just do what you like. Usually I like a toothier edge usually because it has more "bite" but I also get a lot of joy and relaxation going through the full stone progression on my Aeb-l chef and see it develop a mirror polished edge and split hairs in half with barely a touch. Does it need to be that sharp? No. Will my wife somehow ding up the edge even though I keep asking her not to use the custom kitchen knives? You betcha. Then its back to sharpening that knife again but now using my tears as a lubricant.
I always thought so, (the test results). I usually sharpen my knives to 1000 grit and strop. When I'm motivated I sharpen down to .3 microns and then strop. I never tested the different ones, but I always suspected that there was not a significant difference. Especially for every day use knives. Thanks for the video. I enjoy your knife sharpening videos the best. You're always coming up with interesting tests and methods. Always thumb up.
Yeah I think different steel would yield different results..but haven't tested anything else yet. Thanks for the comment my friend😀
i think you do good on the test videos bro! i never really pay too much attention to em dulling out as i always try n keep em shaving sharp (granted not nearly as sharp as you) usually if i use a blade as soon as i get home i strop it..
Yeah same, sometimes I can get away with just a strop. The other times I'm back to the stone. Still doesn't take long though, as I usually only sharpen to 600-1000. Thanks My friend😀
Love you sharping videos helps me alot is there you can teach us on sharping would be awesome. Just subbed awesome sharing videos thanks
Nice comparison!! 👍👍👍
Thanks!
Very informative video. I learned something. I always thought that a lower grit sharpened edge would protect itself better and therefore last longer. Now I see that was not correct.
Honestly it's a very interesting subject (if you a knife person). Although the more I dive into it the deeper the rabbit hole goes lol. Thanks for watching my friend!
there is no end to this particular rabbit hole my friend. You have loads of different grits to finish with as well as different abrasives. Then you have edge and blade geometry to take into account. Don't forget there are scores of different steel types to test (probably hundreds). You also have to take into account the hardness of the steels and can test at all different hardness's. On top of all that you have hundreds of different materials to perform all the tests on as cardboard is only one testing medium of which you only did one run. These are just off the top of my head but if you just take these into account and try every combination of all these things I am sure you could be done by the time you are 10,000 years old. That is if you start now. And hope they don't invent more steels in the meantime ;)
How much of an improvement over 600 would you get with a 2000 grit stone. Might be the best compromise?
What I take from this is. Roughly speaking your blade will last almost 40 % extra with the mirror polish. Compared to the 600 grit. However you will most likely spend more than 40 % extra time. When sharpening with the higher grits.
Yeah that was my thought as well. Although it took me 35 minutes to sharpen the 8000 grit edge, including soaking the stones. It only took me 5 minutes to sharpen the 600 grit edge, as the stone I used doesn't really need soaking. So I think it would be a little more than 40%, but the point is still the same. Thanks for the comment 😀
Your math needs work. 600 cut 60 ft and 8k did 98 which is almost 40 ft more. 40 ft is 66% of 60 ft, so it had 66% better edge retention.
I provide a small sharpening business around where I live. I've sharpened hundreds of customers knives and obviously all of mine. I do notice a difference between mirrored and non. I feel you nailed it right on the head. The mirrored edge definitely last longer..... But not so much that if I don't have time to polish it up fine that I will be s.o.l
Nice work!
Thanks!
Well done.
Running out of arm hair :DD As for the testing videos, I really enjoyed that :)
amazing content!
Thanks !
How do you not have a million subscribers??? Oh well, now you have one more. :)
which knife is having more of its base metal removed??if its the 8k grit will you wear out the knife sooner?but excellent video-I usually opt for the quick route,I just do free hand,however I do feel that I am not probably getting the best use of the steel?
Neither really removes that much material. The 8000 technically removes more, due to the fact it's been sharpened on more stones. I've had this particular tenacious for...I think 7 or 8 years. It's been sharpened HUNDREDS of times, I even sharpened it on a brick several times lol, and it's still going strong. I suppose after several decades of use it will start to wear out. I just restored an old kitchen knife that had a bow from being sharpened so much (I have a video on that restoration😉). A little grinding got the bow out and it's back in use. 😀 Thanks for the comment!
great video!
would be very interested to know which knife comes back to sharp with only stropping or if one/both needs sharpening. it could maybe justify the time spent polishing an edge if stropping regularly is all you need to maintain it for a long period VS regular 600 grit sharpening
Good though. I wish I would have tested that. Being able to bring an edge back easily is definitely important. I will say, I usually only sharpen to 600 grit, and can bring the edge back very easily. I don't have the data on the 8000 though as I normally don't take my edges that far. Thanks for the suggestion!
yeah im the same. i only ever put a polished edge on powdered steels & maybe thats where this question is best answered. with 8cr13, id expect both edges to respond well to stropping. keep up the great work!
Yeah I think I'm going to do this test with some much higher quality steels and see how they respond. Thanks!
Great video I'm a new sub
Thanks my friend!
Great video as always. Thanks. One question, I have been using a lot of sharpeners like the sharpmaker, worksharp, and edge pro. But I would like to buy a decent set of stones. Anything you could recommend? It doesn't have to be the cheapest or most expensive just something to learn and get the job done. Thanks for your time.
I use the edge pro stones by hand and have had great results. I also have norton stones. Both are good choices. King stones are also a good choice. Thanks for watching 😀
I would suggest the Eze-lap 600 grit diamond stone. www.amazon.com/EZE-LAP-46F-Diamond-Pocket-Sheath/dp/B000UVTDXY/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1503437126&sr=8-16&keywords=eze+lap+diamond+stone
I just sharpen the work knife to 600 grit and straps. What I have noticed is that 600 grit cuts rope and plastic around hay bales lighter than 1000 grit and up
I have found there to be a very big difference between mirrored and coarse edges on the same knife.
Another good video. I think you dimenstrated well in those steels the difference in grit finishes comparing apples to apples. I am currious thou if the materials used also have an effect on the outcome. Because I saw a vid a while back polished vs toothy and the outcome cutting fish was the opposite.
It definitely depends on the material being cut. I chose cardboard due to it being easy to source, and it's consistency. So I can continue to compare knive steel, without too many variables. Think of it as ballistic gel for knives. A lower grit edge definitely performs better on fish, or anything that needs "bite". Think trying to slice a hard crusted bread with a mirror polished edge. However that's is more towards a knives ability to cut. Not necessarily edge retention. Cutting ability and edge retention are two different things. I know I'm kinda confused too lol. Essentially a knifes ability to STAY sharp vs a knifes ability to CUT a particular material. Hopefully I explained that right😉 I think this video may have dove deeper into this subject than I might be able to go haha. Thanks for the comment!
Makes sense!
polished edges have less friction when slicing.. sharpening ANGLES and BLADE STEEL has ALOT to do with how long an edge will last ...more than polished or toothy edges i do believe 👍🏼
Yes very true! It is nice to see how one steel performs with two different edges applied though. Thanks for watching!
Interesting test. I sharpen woodworking tools like planes, chisels etc. I'm not sure what the grits are but I use 3 dmt diamond stones. Course, Fine, Super Fine and then strop with green chromium oxide buffing compound. Previously I just had a double sided oil stone that wasn't as fine and no strop. I found that some of my tools retain their edge considerably longer (mostly the old tool steel) others, like my cheaper set of bench chisels don't last much longer. But for me because they are a single sided bevel and most of the work is in the course stone it's really only 1-2 minutes extra per tool to sharpen through all the grits and strop to a mirror finish. I generally will sharpen up my 6 chisel set and a plane in 15 minutes. I always find knives longer and more difficult to sharpen to the same level.
I always felt like chisels are easier to learn on. I usually only sharpen mine to 1000 grit. They seem to do the job. Thanks for the comment!😃
KME 600 grit is the finest I go on most of my knives. I cut cardboard very seldom with my knife. That's what I have a box cutter for and those work much better for cardboard anyway.
What I do use my knife for often are plastic packaging binders. You're more prone to slipping from the really thick ones with a super fine blade than cutting them. A more toothy edge instead really bites into them and makes that kind of cutting much easier and less dangerous.
Both edges are sharp, sure, and a really fine edge may hold a bit longer for certain tasks, but for the time the rougher edge holds I find it cuts much better.
Yeah those packaging binders are tough to cut. For me 600-1000 is the sweet spot. Although I just got done sharpening a tenacious to 8000 and stropped on a green strop and then smooth leather lol. It's still fun to do every once and awhile. Thanks for the comment!😀
In my experience some steels doe really better with a very fine mirror polish, while other steels are benefitting from some coarser finish. I prefer Mirror finishes on Steels like O1, M390, CPM 20CV or CPM M4, while other steels like CPM S110V really don't benefit much from a mirror polish. CPM S110V doesn't hold hair whittling sharpens for very long but keeps the rougher toothie edge for a incredible long time (what it is design for with that many large carbides).
Yeah I think it depends on what your cutting as well. There are so many variables at play.
I would say that's because you're talking about high carbide steels. Carbides are very hard and common sharpening stones cannot cut them, so instead of getting sharper and sharper they will eventually just chip out. That's why those powder steels loose their high sharpness fast when sharpened on a stone that's not hard enough to sharpen carbides. But once you managed to polish the carbides as well, you'll get similar advantages over a rough edge than you get with softer steels. Not as big of a difference but a real polished high carbide powder steel is something that really lasts for a very very very long time. Drawback is, for some steels you basically need diamond and nothing else will properly work.
I think it depends heavily on the steel and heat treat. Both knives used in this video have a softer steel which takes a keen edge much faster, but since it's softer will dull faster. I personally prefer D2 steel, but I have all kinds in my collection. For me depending on the quality of the steel is equal with how I sharpen said knife. If I get say S30V and put it all the way to a 6,000 polish (about the limit I go to), sure it's gonna *look* fantastic, but even though it may gunk up from whatever it's being used on it still will take a lot longer to dull out than say 440C sharpened and polished to 6,000 grit. As your videos have shown you can pretty much get any knife to a razors edge with good technique and some decent equipment, but I stand by the idea that it depends on the steel and how it was manufactured. My current EDC is a Brous VR-71 and I haven't had to sharpen it for months. I hone it on ceramic when it dulls and it always comes back.
Yeah I agree.. this was just for 8cr13mov and different steels will behave differently. I plan on testing more steels in the future. Picking up more cardboard today! I'm really interested in testing s30v. I'm going to need a lot more cardboard though lol. Thanks for the comment 👍
Spend the money and pick up two S30V knives and do experiments on them, it'll be worth it to both you and your viewers.
Well... There's a bit of confusion about if a lower or higher grit will have a better edge retantion... Some say is better a lower grit and now in your test a higher grit performs better. This said, as long as I love seeing a mirror polished edge, and considering that with a guided angle system is going to take me just some minutes longer (of fun
😂) ... I will keep going as high as I can!
Thank you
Only thing I can think of is that you are shaving with it. Or maby they are offended you are cutting cardboard.lol great vid.
All things being equal i guess it comes down to time spent sharpening to get the same cutting work done , ie 2x 600 or 1000+4000+8000 would run about the same ? personally i prefer easy to sharpen quick & often v tough & expensive less often but more precise + extra time .
I have the same school of thought. It also depends on your cutting tasks. Some items respond better to a polished edge, and some are better with a lower grit edge. And personal preference. It's still nice to know the numbers though 😀
Indeed for high end knives lots of care & attention with polish finish just seems right but for everyday do it all knife less fussy steel & quick swipes of 320 = job done . Thanks for reply another great vid
Thanks!
Very good test sir. I actually own both knives and the Tenacious is one of the best knives ever for around $40.00.
Thanks! I love the tenacious. Spyderco does it right with the 8cr13mov and super strong liner lock. Mine is somewhere around 6-7 years old and still going strong! Thanks for watching my friend 😀
Now all you need to do is take that bad boy up to 30k grit with some diamond paste and a piece of denim glued to balsa. My neighbor showed me a kitchen knife sharpened that way that would push cut wet newspaper.
Wet news paper...I'll have to try that. Haha I'll look into diamond paste. I've got plenty of old denim laying around!
Now repeat the test swapping the two knives to see if the difference isn't in the particular batch of steel or the heat treat.
Both knifes are 8cr13mov steel. So I don't think it would make much of a difference.
That shows how little you know about the manufacturing of steel, the importance of heat treatment, and how slight differences in the steel can have a considerable effect on the blade post heat treat.
Didn't think of that. I suppose that could make a difference. Thanks for letting me know.
The engineering spec for 8cr13mov is really tight, so metallurgically they're both within .05% of eachother. And both knives are form the same spyderco manufacturing facility, so the heat-treat would be done on the same machine. You would not expect to see any difference in performance between the two and if you did that would mean a faulty blade from spyderco and not say anything about the grit of the edge. You're almost certainly making mountains out of molehills, rocket. And before you claim I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm a mechanical engineer so just don't unless you want to have a long argument about equilibrium, martensite, and alpha ferite.
sam oberg You are dead on with this👌I was thinking but it's the same steel? From the same company? Using the same heat treat 🤔
For my straight razors u go up to about 14000 grit and then strop, but that is just for comfort when shaving. For a pocket knife it seems that going into really high grits doesn't actually help that much. Seems to be just for collectors won don't actually use their knives.
Yeah, straight razors are a different story!
600 has roughly 60% of the edge resilience of 8000 on a 8Cr13MoV blade. Sounds about right. Thanks for the thorough test, accounting for the steel and edge length.
The one thing I would bring up is the 35 min vs 5 min time investment for any kind of normal sharpening practice. Working through all those stones and two different stroppings might have taken a while for your test, but I'm not sure how often all that would be necessary for regular edge maintenance. Bringing that Resilience back up to 8000 shouldn't take much longer than brining that Tenacious back to 600. Certainly not seven times longer.
Two stones and a strop doesn't take much longer than one stone and a strop. Unless there are some big nicks, I hardly ever find it necessary to go through more than two stones. I think what most people who insist on a mirror edge miss is that higher grit finishing stones aren't usually necessary. The harder the intended use of the blade, the coarser the finishing stone. The lighter the intended use, the finer the initial stone.
So one thing to keep in mind as far as time goes, and I don't know if this is true for every stone on the market, but I accounted for the stone soaking time, as the larger stones need soaking for around 10 minutes. The little 600 grit edge pro stone I used only needs a dunk in water and it's good to go. That's one reason I use it. The bigger stones just need time to soak. Something else I've noticed, I can almost bring back an edge on a 600. I'm a pretty "hard" knife user, and I usually have to go back to 1000 to bring an 8000 edge back. That's just my experience. Everyone's needs are different. If all you are cutting is soft things, then it wouldn't take much to bring back the 8000, probably just a strop. If your cutting carpet, good bye mirror polish lol. Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching 😀
Thanks for replying. I'd kind of like to see you do the same test, but do a 1000 grit and a strop VS the 600 and a strop....that is if you have a 1000 grit stone similar to the 600 in the video that doesn't need soaking. Also, go two rounds to test what it takes to bring the edge back and what the retention is on the second round. Seems like the investment time would be the same with a better retention, right?
Yeah, 8000 is def overdoing it for a carpet cutting knife. Still, you don't normally go further than 600 for your EDC? If you need to go down to 1000 to bring back the mirror edge after your every day use, seems like you'd be using a 1000 grit number and calling it quits.
Definitely agree about the use. The thing about EDC is that the E is different for everyone...If your gentleman's folder gets used primarily as a letter opener, a mirror finish might be a nice looking compliment to the knife and provide a smooth gratifying experience when slicing through an envelope. Doubt it'll need sharpening more than once a year. Nothing wrong with that.
Personally, if I'm doing more than a few cuts on something, I'll go grab a job-specific knife for the task at hand. When I'm doing anything wilderness related, there's usually a sheathed knife on my hip. My EDC usually stays in the pocket for what ever random thing I encounter...wood, wire sheathing, vinyl tape, rope, plastic bailing cord, cardboard, paper, etc. My delica probably sees less than 10 cuts/day and I'll spend maybe 20 minutes once a month sharpening the things with a 1000 and a 4000 (Norton stones like yours).
That would be an interesting test. One thing I struggle with is finding something that is more consistent to test how sharp the knife IS or ISN'T. I'm kinda going off of feel.. shaving arm hair and cutting paper isn't exactly scientific. I can tell if it's sharp or dull but the line isn't that thin. Meaning it's kinda hard to tell sometimes whether one knife is sharper than the next. With this test it was easy to tell what was going on. With edges more closely matched it may be more difficult.
I agree, it's nice to have options for different cutting tasks. I tend to fall into the one knife fits all group. Usually I have a lot of other stuff on me so I like a knife that will do everything OK. 600 grit is the sweet spot for me. Mainly because it's a one stone system. I can almost always bring and edge back on a 600, and it still gives you a good working edge. But that's just me everyone is different and has different needs. 😀
kinda funny to think about how we start out wanting to learn to sharpen and get to the point of hair splitting and mirror finishes, believing it is the top end of the sharpening spectrum, only to really learn it is normally a huge waste of time and there are many disadvantages to a mirror high grit finish, that are negative in both performance and other factors such as time spent to make. It took me some time to really comprehend what matters most in my little sharpening journey and it comes down to how much time does it take to sharpen by hand, how much money is the equipment going to cost, and mirror edges are just for show and tell for the most part. Honestly when you really understand what is going on when it comes to sharpening an edge, what matters the most is making that apex,(a burr is a sure sign of such) and removing that burr if there is one as much as possible. THese two factors almost regardless of finishing grit determines 100% sharpness and really is the only factor that matters any for a cutting tool, this is actually a fact, but you could say it is my opinion if you'd like. hope this helps someone.
No you are correct. Apexing is the most important thing regardless of grit. Its a misunderstood subject as most seem to believe that grit size determines apex size. And thats not necessarily true. I like mirror edges but for me they are a wast of time. And with modern super fine grained steels not necessary in most cases outside of straight razors. Just my opinion though. 🙂
I agree and feel the same way. take it easy man keep up the great vids.
When you make push cuts mostly ,than polished edge win fir sure,but if you make slice cuts ,than polished edge will be about 3 times worst than 600 grid edge.I already made that's test on the same edge with different grind...
Interesting. I may have to retest with slicing cuts. There was a small amount of slicing. Even though the blade was taped off. I still see what you're saying though. Thanks for the comment 👍
Try changing the angle. I dont do knives for cardboard but I do meat knives. Skinner and butcher 320 grit at 30 degrees, trimmer and boners 600 at 20 degrees. Filet the same except I strop off with Green compound on a balsa board. My butchers love it based on repeat business. Nice toothy edge that comes back with a steel and last.
I have a cheap Wiltshire kitchen knife that doesnt shave my arm hair off, but cuts paper with ease. Sharpened it with one piece of 220grit sanding disc lying on a kitchen counter by hand. Finished off with about 10 swipes on a leather belt to strop. Cuts meat like a mofo though, and the edge seems to last too by normal standards in a regular home. Watching your vid and other sharpening vids on CZcams on the same subject resulted in different outcomes. Sometimes the less sharpened knife does better than an identical knife sharpened to a much higher grit side by side (as tested by the "paper test" after all cutting done). So, given my experience with a simple and quick sharpening by hand being effective, I am wondering if a lot of this sharpening is done by enthusiasts who just enjoy the process as a whole. Also, maybe, bragging rights.
Maybe, although I think it just a fun hobby to mess around with. There's so much more to a knife being sharp, than a knife being sharp... hundreds of variables. I wish there was some sort of standardized test for sharpness we could do at home. Other than that it's just arm hair and paper lol.
Should of sharpen the bigger knife with the 600 grit instead or use the same knife
Yes that good and all, but what did it take to get them back to sharp?
I didn't really test that.. I ended up resharpen if these both back to 4000 grit on norton stones.
I would like to see how easy it is to bring back the edge.
both Of these were brought back on an aggressive strop. I didn't notice any difference bringing either one back. On different steel the results may be different though.
You may already know this but, I've read on many sites that edge pro stones aren't comparable with Japanese water stones. They say a 1000 grit edge pro stone is a bit finer than and 8000 grit Japanese water stone. I believe it to because I'm not the best, but I'm pretty decent at hand sharpening. I can get a knife a bit sharper with an edge pro sharpening to 1000 grit, than I can sharpening the same knife on a 6000 grit king stone. Also I can feel that my 6000 grit king stone is a bit coarser than a 1000 grit edge pro stone. Next water stone I buy will be in the 10,000-12,000 grit range so hopefully I can out sharpen my edge pro.
I have heard that as well. Not all grits are the same, I realize that. They seem pretty compatible to the norton stones grit to grit. Meaning the 1000 grit nortons seem compatible to the 1000 grit edge pro. I'm basing that on how fast they remove metal and how the edge looks and feels. It's not an exact science or test I realize that. Thanks for the comment 👍
OUTDOORS55 Your welcome. I've never used any Norton brand stones so I don't know, but definitely trust you on that. By the way, I MO you are a very good hand sharpener and I love watching your videos. You explain everything well and give good visual examples of what your saying. That's what really helps people learn. Keep up the awesome videos.
Thanks Cody! I try my best explaining things haha. Thanks again I really appreciate it 😀👍
"about exactly..." :D
So you get 160% improvement for 30 minutes of labor - for me, this is definitely worthwhile. I use my knifes bushcrafting/hiking so re-sharpening isn’t always as easily available. I also tend to favor harder steel that naturally keeps its edge longer by nature, it good to know that putting in that extra time upfront matters.
Depends how you look at the math, and how you like to use knives to determine if there is a benefit. if you are bushcrafting you prob want a finer edge for woodwork anyway, but...
160% sounds great if you don't actually look at the numbers.
5min to do 600grit for 60ft, and 35min to do 8k for 98ft.
that's 12ft of work per minute of sharpening for 600grit, vs 2.8ft of work per min of sharpening of 8k. now if you were paying an employee to work, which would you think is the most beneficial? if you had an employee whose job involved 8hrs of knife work a day of this nature, do you want 12ft per min or 2.8ft per min?
apart from anything, it's unlikely during a day or an outing that each resharpening is going to required 5min on 600grit. typically it would be 30seconds to restore the edge at that level in the field on a pocket stone or small steel hone.. these are soft steels easy to restore.
if you are out for a multi day trip, then that 8k prob wont survive a weekend of work if it can only handle 98ft cutting. so you are going to need to resharpen anyway. in the middle of the dark in the forest, do you want 35min or 5 min to get an edge back.
@@knivesandstuff With the time, however for the 8k edge (Not really an 8k edge, the Norton 4k/8k stone he uses there, the 8k side is 3u, with is closer to 5-6k JIS) 35 min to sharpen, even on a fixtured system is a very long time. If you use scrubbing strokes the job with get done a lot faster, it was just a 1k, 4k, 8k three stone progression, I can knock that out in less that ten minutes if I want a shiny, pretty edge. If I 3-Step or Plateau Sharpen, I can get a 8K edge in under 5 min.
@@JDStone20 do you think your time for sharpening is an avg time for most people. do you think his time is wrong? or just not as good as yours? would other people be slower? so if you can get an 8k edge in 5min, what time would your 600grit edge be?
@@JDStone20 also. he factored in time to soak the stones which was required to do the 8k.. now of course, you might use stones that done need soaking. who knows. but its all time. you also then would need to factor in a similar test to see if your sharpening, being faster gets similar difference, or better.
@@knivesandstuff Ok, that makes more sense. You can however, speed up the time for your stones soaking by putting them under running water, cuts the time by half. Like you said, you could also use splash and go stones, or diamond plates.
Google/youtube is cracked. This has to be one of the LEAST offensive videos on youtube. Grow up google/youtube. Stop trying to censor everything you don't agree with! *Sidenote* Good job on the vid my friend. I'm rooting for you and all other small youtubers!
Yeah they are getting crazy. Thanks for helping to support us!
This may be more worth-while with higher grade steels. If a 50(+)% increase in edge retention scales 1:1, or at least close enough, with better steels I can see sharpening with higher grit stones being worth it. The question is how well does that performance increase scale.
When I first did this test I would have said the opposite. I was thinking the lower grade steels would benefit more as they have more to gain. I'm definitely going to test some better steel in the future. Just have to wait for more arm hair lol😀
I have a question: In the video you say that the longest lasting knife was sharpened to an 8000 grit Japanese Waterstone, and the other was sharpened to a 600 grit Edge Pro stone. However, in my favourite knife shop, they say that the Edge Pro grit cannot be compared to Japanese Waterstone grits. Apparently, Edge Pro 220=Waterstone 700, Edge 600=waterstone 5000, and Edge 1000=Waterstone 8000. So are you saying that sharpening to 5000 waterstone grit really has that much of a difference to sharpening to 8000 waterstone grit? Does that mean that Edge pro stones arent very fine?
Honestly I don t know... I’m not sure any company REALLY knows what grit they are putting out. It seems to range all over the place with stones (even between the same stones from the same *reputable manufacturer). I know there’s different grit scales but the scratch pattern is more telling. Sand paper seems to be the most consistent so that’s what I compare everything to. The 220 grit edge pro stone leaves about the same scratch pattern as 220 grit sandpaper. Same with the 600. The 1000 edge pro seems closer to 2000 grit sandpaper. This is why I haven’t done any more testing with this. It’s all by feel and what not. Just not accurate enough.
OUTDOORS55 okay, well in that case, id like to talk about different types of stones. On the knife shop I was talking about (called knivesandtools.com) they say that Naniwa and edge pro use the same material: white aluminum oxide. The problem I have, which is why I wanted to more about the edge pro stones, is because I just find it simply too expensive to go down the line of Waterstones. I currently have a Skerper 220(brand from the shop), a Naniwa combination 1000/3000 stone, and a strop. It costs a lot money to get a 5k stone and 8k also very expensive. My other question, is if stone type affects the ability to sharpen hard steels like 3v? I heard that Naniwa combination 1000/3000 stone is very soft and won't have good results when sharpening 3v and other powder steels. And apparently the sake thing goes for King stones as well. I am very confused because I don't have enough experience or the money to buy many types of stone to try it out myself.
I would really like to get to the bottom of this, because it lets people get the most out of their knives. Can you make a video comparing Edge Pro to a Waterstone? What about the difference in finishing with a 5k waterstone vs finishing with an 8k waterstone?
Should have used the same knife bro... do the test with the resilience at the 600 grit stage and then resharpen it to 8000 and do the test again...
If these that much of a difference between these two knives with the same steel than the testing doesn't matter anyway. It would come down to heat treating quality control. And thus screw the results no matter what blade i used.
@@OUTDOORS55 but the same knife has the same heat treat, so the only difference would be edge finish. It gives a point of comparison
Some steel has better advantages with a 600 grit vs 10000 grit. Some steel also requires diamonds due to the carbides in super steel. Your test is just for 8cr13mov with that blade geometry.
Question, is the edge angle the same on both of those?
I would say that's probably true, that it's only for 8cr13mov. I'd like to do more testing with other steels to know for sure. I think you'd have to look at the percentage of improvement, rather than the footage. The blade angle was as close as I could get to being the same. Funny thing is I've never needed diamonds for any steel. Even m390 and m4. They do take a lot longer to sharpen though lol. Thanks for the comment!
i agree with that. depending on the stones. an india stone isnt going to sharpen many high carbide steels... but most water stones etc just take a lot longer. tho... when you think about carbides, diamonds will cut them while other media might pull them out. might being key word, just depends on the stones tho. i agree your end result shows that there is little difference between the two. that may be different with different steel tho, would love to see. have you watched cedric ada gear and out doors? or read Jim Ankersons steel testing on bladeforums?
No is don't get on any forums anymore. Theres a lot of good advice and also a lot of really BAD advice. Sometimes its hard to sort out the mess lol. Im definitely going to try some different steels and see how it pans out. Should be interesting!
great video I know this was very interesting too me I think the same way is a gradual progression sharpened blade better than a 600 grit and stropped blade..
Is 440 stainless garbage?
How about doing some scissor sharpening,you know how to do knifes better than most.
Does nylon strap work same as leather for stroping?
Not sure, never tried it.
thanks for your reply just finished sharpening my pm2 with m390 once again with my kme took a little bit longer this time make sure the bird was removed completely before switching to my next Stone each time and also took the factory 23-degree Edge or so down to 19 degrees per side came out razor sharp. the other thing I was doing without even noticing was testing the sharpness on my arm hair well my arm hair like anybody that has a knife addiction or sharpen knives the hair isn't that long anymore and well short hair just doesn't come off as easy as you would think when short
Awesome! Glad you got it figured out 👍
Get Rogain for a sponsor. Arm Hair formula.
What steel do they have?
mountainhobo both of these come with 8cr13mov from what I remember.
Thanks. I was curious since some steels react differently, so I think it should be a recommendation for that specific steel. I have not verified it myself, but I have read it repeatedly that for example S110V does not benefit from the mirror sharpening.
Yes sorry, I forgot to put that in the video. Both are 8cr13mov.
Offensive? I'm offended by the stupidity floating around youtube's higher ups. there crazy anymore. O by the way great video
I have never seen a low grit edge last, on any kitchen knife test, longer than a refined edge. I know low grit sharpening has it's huge share of fans, but I could never confirm this in any way, no matter the test itself. Thing is, as you go up, starting even from a perfect apex, it's easy to ruin the blade while it might look good at first. And my guess is a lot of people do this. I've been working with hundreds of kitchen knives, not one to be any different on low grit - fine grit comparison. There should have been enough steel differences to cover all aspects. In Japan I haven't seen low grit edges anywhere anyway and they do have a good reason why.
I think it really depends on your primary use. Kitchen knives are different than edc blades. For kitchen knives it makes sense to go to a very fine grit, as the worst thing you can do is come in contact with the cutting board. In a hard use folder even at a VERY fine grit, if your cutting carpet, it's gonna dull SUPER fast. You would spend all your time sharpening. Just my opinion. Thanks for watching and the comment 😀
OUTDOORS55 True, different types of knives. Wasn't my intention to put them on the same level. Just giving extra info on the matter. That being said, you would be amazed by what some people in a restaurant kitchen do with knives, cutting even metal cans. I still go high grit with the best apex I can and moran edge. I've spent months testing this and searching for the proper knive since most knives (if not all as I modify the edge to get there) aren't made for such usage in the first place. Was quite fun and interesting stuff.
I think is about finding an edge that works for your individual needs. It's definitely not a one size fits all deal!😀
OUTDOORS55 this is so true. I wish more people would consider this.
How much grit I need to get a mirror polish?😉
At least 8000. But grit progression is just as important for mirror polish as the ending grit used.
As a beta test, i purchased the Resilience, I DID NOT BUY FOR THE VERSION OF STEEL...i made my purchase based on two elements, one....it was waaayy less than retail...two...I can practice my skills without destroying a higher quality knife. If i completly trash the knife in my quest to hone my skils.....i won't loose any sleep over it, if i learn how to get this knife tuned up to the best of its ability, then i will move on to my SW. Im out....
I actually like the tenacious/ persistence/ resilience line. The steel is 8cr13mov but spyderco does a good job with the heat treatment and I think they leave it a Little harder than other manufacturers. I’ve had my tenacious for 7-8 or so years and it’s still going strong. It’s been sharpening, literally 1000s of times and has served me well. It’s a solid knife for the money. And like you said if it’s lost/broken, no sleep lost. Thanks for watching my friend 😀
Thanks for the reply Alex. The truth is...taking advice from the general public about knife steel is like asking someone what is the perfect shotgun or rifle?? "me scratching my head" Anyway... a working opnion is the one i look for. This is my first of many Spyderco's, I did not have an interest in their begenning because they all seemed very cheap. Today they seem prettttyyyy competitive. I'm out!
What blade steel does the resilience have?
Both have 8cr13mov. Sorry I forgot to put that in the video😀
Keith Gemmill 8cr13mov
Where do you get your stones
I can't remember where I bought my norton stones. My edge pro stones came from edge pro website.
His father really had a set of stones. He inherited them.
I process a lot of game and I find a lower grit edge holds better
I think a little bit of a toothy blade helps with meat and skinning.
Can you please make a video, Edge Trailing vs Edge Leading strokes in a Stone in Sharpening ?
DUDE!!!
60ft vs 98ft, a 61% increase in performance
Alex: "it's not worth using a super fine stone..." like wtf? 😅😅
There may be a 50-60% increase in performance, however theres easily a 300% increase in the time it takes to sharpen in order to gain the 50-60% increase. That easily = not worth it for me.
Why 8000 grit 2 mirror polish on a edc ... Ta show off the look on the average Joe's face when the knife cut like there was nothing there is price less
I notice you sharpen with pull strokes opposed too push strokes on the stones is there a reason for this decision
I tend to sharpen back and forth for the first couple and then only go backwards. I feel like it allows me to maintain an angle better. I've had noticeably betters results if I sharpen on the pull strokes. I don't know if there's any science to it. It just works better for me. 😀
here's a question for you and I hope you can answer it on my higher in knives save my zero tolerance with CPM 20cv blades and the Spyderco paramilitary 2 with the bowler m390 on my Lansky turn box I get a sharp blade but it's just sharpening just the edge because the sticks are around so you don't get the whole sharpening edge but if you sharpen with the kme you get the whole sharpening edge aka the secondary grind grind and sometimes it doesn't feel that sharp when coming off of the kme and that's using 100 through 1500 diamond going to a 5000 Belgian Blue and 8000 lapping film on glass Blanc and finally a 12000 green agate stone. and by the way all of those stones fit into my kme stone holder so no freehanding so the ankles constant and consistent the whole time but some knives this doesn't feel that sharp when coming off of that Kme and I make sure to spend the time and remove the Burr so any ideas thoughts sorry there's so much to read here but I have a lot to say LOL any response would be appreciated thanks
It's hard to say what's going on. I don't have any experience with any of the "machines". All I do is freehand sharpening. It's also hard to say without seeing what's happening.. I will say m390 is a b**** to sharpen. When sharpening m390 I've noticed that my norton stones don't work that well. But my edge pro stones work much better. It may be the specific diamond stones your using. Again it's hard to say...super steels are almost a different story altogether as far as sharpening goes. Seems like some things work and some don't. Without any real explanation. I was talking with another youtuber who couldn't even sharpen his zdp-189 spyderco... even with a kme. He finally sent it to someone with a wicked edge system and that seemed to work OK. I still don't think they got very good results with it.
also I can sharpen a knife on my kme and touch up that edge on my lanskey turn box and have that edge feel more sharp than when finished on the kme the first time does this make sense?
Yeah that sounds strange. It may be the different stones giving the better results...
seems like you're gonna need some test subjects to donate some arm hair next time
Lol for sure!!
i'd volunteer but I am running low as well :(
Is sharpening worth it seriously why ask of course it's worth it
Is sharpening to 8000 grit worth it?
Stropped wrong oO
No
I have an legit old WW2 army knife of my granddads, just like the one in the pic below but mine is perfect, was kept wrapped in a sock for 60 years, I know its not an awesome knife but it means a lot to me....i have a cheap £5 180/350 grit stone and a more expensive fine 1200/2000 Norton oil stone , im going to make a strop like the one you show in one of your videos.....i have always struggled to keep the edge on this knife and its getting very frustrating.
Do you have any tips for sharpening stainless or is it the same process as everything else?
www.collectarea.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/291.jpg
Nice knife! The process is exactly the same regardless of steel type. Good luck sharpening! 👍
Thanks, yeah like i said i know its not a Bob Kramer but its well made and has survived this long...i just want to put it to some use.....legal use btw
res1492, the can opener part looks kind of like a grumpy turtle.
lol, it does...or a bald headed eagle
8cr13mov is shit steel, thus making a complete waste of time sharpening up to 8,000 grit. I just sharpened my Kershaw Emerson Launch 5 to 8,000 grit. It's blade is CPM-154 steel which is a powder version of 154CM. The blade has an excellent heat treatment also. The edge retention on my knife will outlast 8cr13mov by 100 times more. My work knife is basic 440C Stainless steel. This knife I sharpen on a V Porcelain knife sharpener and a few strops is all it needs. No need to over sharpen low quality steel which won't retain an edge for very long. Thanks for the great video brother!
I actually like spydercos 8cr13mov, it's super easy to sharpen, has good corrosion resistance, and I think it holds an edge very well for how cheap it is. Now don't get me wrong, there are MUCH better steels out there, but for the price, it's a great budget steel from spyderco. Not all 8cr13mov is the same. Spyderco seems to do it right. Never been a fan of kershaws 8cr13mov. Different manufacturers treat their steels differently. Quality control also plays a big factor. I've never worked with cpm154 but I hear it has some really good qualities. Maybe I'll come across a knife with some cpm154 soon...lol 💰 Thanks for the comment! 👍
+OUTDOORS55 I wouldn't doubt that Spyderco's 8cr13mov is better than most. Of course, there are very few Spyderco knives I even like, and none of those have 8cr13mov steel. After many years of owning knives, I'm getting closer to probably purchasing one of the few Spyderco knives I like. It's the Spyderco Military. Other than that, the lowest steel I would even bother to purchase is 440C. People say that 8cr steels are the same, but that has not been my experience with it.
8Cr13Mov, is a medium carbon stainless steel. It actually has higher max obtainable hardness than most stainless steels, and a higher carbide volume than many tool knife steels like A2, O1, etc. .
The apex stability is also likely higher than 154CM (PM or Ingot, makes no difference) and so the ability to hold a high polish is similar. See Roman Landes work for more details on apex stability.
mister smith I agree with you, 8cr is terrible. One day of use at work and it's dull. It's sharp to begin with too. Finished off with black Arkansas and leather strop with green compound.