Jordan Peterson: Autism
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- čas přidán 8. 05. 2017
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This clip is taken from Professor Peterson's: "2017 Personality 18: Biology & Traits--Openness, Intelligence, Creativity I"
The strange thing is that if you were to put a cow in the middle of Walmart (or some other large public area) everyone would stop what they were doing and look at.
Good observation, you’d be correct in that assumption. Really makes you wonder haha
because that doesnt fit in the abstraction :D
@Agent J are you miserable?
Most people in walmart are just standing around doing nothing anyway. If you found a way to stop them from what they were doing you might break the spacetime continuum.
That was a spark of genius, Phrygian.
How many parts of our society are engineered the way Temple Grandin engineered the slaughter houses?
I'm not suggesting that people are thought of as cattle, but isn't everything from our architecture to our schedules supposed to invoke some type of context?
Do you think this limits us, or aids us?
I hate when I encounter a cow that’s not supposed to be there.
Like in the street? I totaled a car because of that one time.
Hahahahaha
Scott Helms I would suppose you totaled the cow too?
@@daxpace : Nope. Didn't even startle it.
@@helmsscotta Sounds a lot like a thug life meme in the making.
In the Temple Grandin movie she has a blind roommate. This arrangement works out well in that both are most comfortable as long as none of the furniture gets moved.
lol true
horowizard it’s really hard to explain or understand why but even though autistics may be rude about people’s disability (i.e. holy shit fucking shit that man is blind!) but we don’t really “see” it in our minds eye and how we value people or pick friends (or negatively, who we dislike).
They say autistics lack empathy but that is a load of horseshit. When eye contact is painful, trust me, you aren’t doing a great job taking in other peoples feelings. Similarly, if a young lady has pretty eyes and I made a microsecond of eye contact with her, I didn’t notice her wheelchair, or back brace, or prosthetic leg, or hearing aids etc.
Can’t speak for everyone though.
horowizard how the hell do they pull chairs out to sit at the table?
@@dickrichard5579 I would think a blind person could sense the presence if a person sitting in a chair and adapt to that. We're talking about larger pieces of furniture like tables, desks, dressers and cabinets.
@@horowizard lol are u joking? he means autistic people. If that was intentional, then lol.
I heard Temple Grandin explain one key thing she contributed to the handling of cattle.
The cattle has to stand in line to enter a shallow pool to get cleaned. They can't really see the far side of the pool, all they experience is swimming in a straight line. In nature, this usually means you are getting further away from shore, which usually means you're eventually going to drown.
The cattle would freak out and feel that desire to change directions and swim back to the edge of the pool. Chaos would erupt on a regular basis.
Grandin designed the pool to run in an arch, so the cattle felt that they were swimming on a trajectory leading them back towards the shore. The panic response never struck them, and things flowed far more smoothly.
That's one thing that sticks in my mind.
unironically fascinating
The one I remember is where she discovered squeezing a cow calmed the cows nerves. She sesigned a device for herself which would squeeze her and it would calm her down.
@@Natashahoneypot Sometimes people also like hugs
@@MN-yb8un they do like hugs and they often don't get them.
Natashahoneypot I love my heavy blanket.
Rename this video to “Jordan Peterson roasts children’s drawing skills”
But it wasn't a roast at all, if anything it explained the deeper brilliance behind their "art".
"stick stick stick stick, it looks NOTHING LIKE A PERSON"
adamgm84 FUCK YOU, YOU DONT LOOK LIKE A PERSON.
It’s actually more about children muscle development and lack of time spent drawing.
Wow, did you draw this...?
*crumples drawing*
Yo this shit is traaaaash!
I had a thought: when you’re trying to learn something new, you learn it like an autistic person. You learn EXACTLY how to do it and if one tiny little thing is off from the way you learned it, you collapse and go “I don’t know how to do it anymore!”.
Repetition and experience allows you to be able to abstract, and mastery means you can take any situation, abstract it, and come up with an answer without having to think about it.
Dude yes. Autism has to do with synaptic pruning, where synapses and brain connections are selectively cut to make efficient patterns of processing. Thats precisely what learning is, refining patterns of processing.
Well if autism is a spectrum then wouldn't we all be on it? lol
Man, the things I find in the CZcams comment section. This is a great deduction.
Close-to-perfect summary of Autistic learning processes.
@@elvishassassin1yeah, just like sexuality is. Doesn't make everyone gay though.
Was it a leather briefcase?
James M. NICE LOL
James M. Cows may be able to decipher it. I've seen cows tremble whenever they see a butcher, who they've never seen before. Maybe its the smell of blood of their kind that kind of clings to the butcher.
This is bothering me because I want to say I recognize a reference
leather is made from cow's skin bro
@@arzterrent2321 1.43
IT DOES LOOK LIKE A PERSON
Billy real persons have curves!
i.ytimg.com/vi/2gqHmxYkcFA/hqdefault.jpg
Yup people look like that...
Billy That’s how I see people’s minds.
“Grown-ups never understand anything by themselves, and it is tiresome for children to be always and forever explaining things to them.”
-Antoine de Saint Exupery, The Little Prince.
Someone's having an identity crisis.
That cow standing around staring at something new or "odd" is so true. I grew up on a farm and as a kid we would lay down in the middle of the cattle yard and the cows would form a perfect circle around you and just stare. It was totally safe, as when another cow wanted to see what would happen and forced its way through. other cows would let him squeeze through or back out to let it in. They never came closer than the original circumference of that circle. They'll move sideways or backwards to let the new cow in. But never, ever forward. Not as if they never seen me before. When doing what i would normally do, they paid zero attention to me. But laying down had them all gathered round as if thinking "WTF is he doing?" Then i'll get triggered because they assumed my gender. I mean, I never told them i was a male. What if i identified as a female? Or a rabbit. Which reminds me of an old joke.
Lmao that was good
Interesting reflection except the end.
The ending is silly, it made me laugh
@@donbeech2564 pretty sure the end was a joke
@@walkerx1813 yeah a joke would be funny tho
My house was a rectangle, but I grew up in a trailer house
did you draw smoke coming out of the window?
@@karabinjr no, we actually had a fire place, but the chimney essentially just looked like a pipe coming up through the roof 😂
@@durt9872 with ya mate.
What’s a trailer house?
@@JV-cz2ve it’s a prefabricated house that can be trailered to any destination, usually a trailer park, but some people do live in them on private property, much cheaper than a house with a foundation
I met Temple Grandin. She's been critical to the development of humane slaughterhouses in the modern world. She's a really interesting person to talk to and her students all love her.
I heard her talk as well, and I thought she made a pretty good point... it as basically like: ‘If we didn’t eat these animals they wouldn’t exist. Would you rather never be born or be humanely killed at the end of your life?’ I mean, I’d rather neither but if I only had those two choices I’d pick the latter.
@@SpiraSpiraSpira they don't have much of a life though. they're born and some reproduce, some don't and they're all waiting for their turn to be murdered. how is that better?
@@gaj30 That could as easily describe humanity. We’re all waiting for our turn to die. Just because it is an absolute certainty that we will all die one day doesn’t mean our lives are without worth or pointless. I grew up on an active ranch with about 120 head of cattle on our 150 acre ranch. Their lives were as good as we could make them.
@@SpiraSpiraSpira i mean, that's your ranch but millions of other animals that are bred to be food do not get that type of life so it's quite unfortunate
@@gaj30 (Edit: Shit, didn’t mean to write so much. Sorry if you don’t want to read, but if you do heres the thoughts of a former farm boy (now white collar professional.))
That’s true, you can only do what you can do. I know exactly what you’re talking about too. We’d never sell our cattle to feed lots, nor use feed lots to “fatten them up” right before sale. I personally feel that feed lots and industrialized animal husbandry of all kinds (especially fowl) is evil - I wish more companies would refuse to buy meat that was made this way. I can almost taste the despair of the poor chickens anytime I eat a McNugget for example, which is why I havent in years.
I think if you bring any creature into the universe you’re responsible for making sure it has as good a life as can be reasonably be provided. I would rather pay twice as much for a hamburger if it meant that the cow that the hamburger used to be lived a fairly happy life and didn’t die terrified and in pain. That is achievable. I’m a capitalist but I think our current practice of capitalism is close to repugnant. It was/is supposed to be smaller businesses, owned by families or partnerships who care about the long view because they hope to pass the business down the family. Modern corporations, which rely on the exercise of government power to even exist, are so hyper-focused on this quarter’s or next quarter’s results that they become dehumanizing. The reason we aren’t cruel to animals is not MAINLY for the animals benefit, it is because hurting animals degrades and taints the humanity of the humans that do it.
Why have we have a culture made efficiency and profit margin such a overriding value that all other values fall to the wayside? I wish Amazon.com had a button that said ‘charge me a little extra so that your delivery drivers don’t have to pee in a bottle to get this to me.’
I buy all my meat from a local butcher who sources it from local ranchers or I even buy directly from the rancher a few times. I would do almost anything to ensure that the animals we raise to eat aren’t needlessly tormented - we owe it to them for bringing them into the world and then killing them for our benefit. I differ from vegans in that I don’t think that is in itself bad, so long as we can give them happy lives.
If we ever perfect the technology to grow meat in a vat cheaply I would support ending most forms of animal husbandry because at that point we would have an alternative and I wouldn’t be able to rationalize killing animals when we didn’t have to. I’m convinced that will happen in 20-30 years and ranching will decline in the next 100. This type of “vat ranching” would also be a lot less carbon intensive for the environment (people joke but cow farts ARE a significant greenhouse gas.) I didn’t enjoy taking our cows, who trusted me, to the slaughterhouse or to sellers who would do that. However, if I had the choice between never existing and living a reasonably happy life only to be painlessly killed and eaten when I was 40 by aliens I would still choose the life of a domesticated animal. Where there is life there is hope.
Reminds me of something I had almost forgotten. When I was 11 or so my grandpa took me and one of our cows (one of the ones I mostly raised from a sickly calf) to the slaughterhouse, he knew the owner, and made me kill it with one of those captive stun/bolt guns (it used .22 blank cartridges rather than pressurized air.) I cried quite a bit because the cow could tell something was wrong and was anxious but made sure I didn’t fuck it up so it didn’t suffer. Today that might be considered child abuse, I don’t know. I think he did it because I got excited about getting most of the money for selling her and he wanted me to understand what selling a cow meant. I still cared for cows after that but that was the last one I gave a name to. Or rather, I called all of our cows Mitzi in her memory. Except the stud bulls, they got fancy names. (Seems sexist now that I think about it but people paid us for stud fees/semen so it was better if they were called cool sounding names.)
Grandpa grew up in the great depression, flew P-47s in Europe killing Nazis and again in Korea (had 2 aerial victories in WW2 and 1 MIG-15 in Korea) but would sometimes cry if a coyote or something murdered one of his geese or a cow got so sick he had to put it down. People DO need to realize where their food comes from. The funny thing is we made more money growing grass as we did with the cattle. I don’t mean the funny grass either, I mean alfafa hay. We were basically grass farmers with a few cows. After my grandpa died I transitioned it to 100% hay farm with a few cows and goats for ambience, they live their entire life there without being eaten.
In my Opinion success isn't about being rich and famous/renowned, if you're Happy and Content with your life and you're a decent human being, you succeeded.
Agreed
Some would be happy if they were recognized for the work they'd done. Myself included
You will probably look outward for happiness after you fix your inside, or the opposite, fix outside before inside.
Success is the continued practice of being entertained by life and the world in general.
I might add 'leaving the world better than you got it' to the mix
Terrible edit. There is a point he was getting to that was never included.
A common comment in his videos. Not sure if he edits them himself or different people have posted them
@@stuartnochance no dude. These videos are not posted by Jordan Peterson or anyone who works for him. It's just other people who cut up JBP videos and repost them with clickbait titles, like leeches, to get clicks from JBP's popularity.
I noticed that.
@@Gruuvin1 can you point us to the full version of this lecture? Or at least a way to identify it.
@@VMK86x have you found it ?
He makes a good point with the 'complexity of the world' chart. As an autistic individual, I often find it very difficult to take in an entire concept as a whole, at face value. As such, in order to be able to understand it, I need to break it down into it's base components, gain an understanding for each component, then rebuild it from those components.
So with that said, I have the same ability to understand even the most complex things, as a regular person, but it will just take me longer. However, once I understand the full concept, I will have a much deeper understanding of it than the average person.
I'm autistic also and you've just explained my learning style precisely.
@@RestfullyRenewed Just a shame that the public education system can't see this, and take it seriously. Because it's that system that's broken, not us.
You are so right! When confronted with any object or situation that seems random and could have thousands of possible algorithms to understand it, most people instinctively make a general assumption to grasp it. My brain goes into hyper modus and first calculates all possible options to get to the solution. Often very exhausting and time consuming, but in the end I always understand the algorithm. And I notice most of the times other people don't get my way of thinking untill we talk about the subject and often they look surprised when I point out their flaws in taking all details into the equation. Weird, they only need a second to make a conclusion, i use a few more seconds, but the math behind it at least is valid and it is so funny to see how people can look when their brains are overloaded... Autism is just as much of a disorder than not having autism is. It takes me longer, but at least my math is right. I am diagnosed with autism, but feel much more sorry for people who don't have it. Low resolution thinking must be boring as fuck.
@@kolonelfranz31 I do agree with that (the final sentence in your dialog specifically, but also everything else). Though I must say, I'm not great with math. I mean, I am, and can be, but something to do with how distracted my mind is due to the activity within in, I can almost never score more than an 80-90 on a test (despite perfectly understanding the math), cuz my mind effectively dropped a few packets (in internet speak). My mind kinda trips over itself sometimes, and that can be considered a bit of a disorder, but most of autism, and the reasoning that most of us don't get better/more functional over time, is because of how others reject us for thinking differently.
Also, when I was a child at the age of only five, and was asked what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I responded with, "I don't know, how am I supposed to know that? What are the available jobs? There must be hundreds or more?" When I gave that answer, I should have been put into a class for gifted (smart) kids, and pushed to utilize my unique mind. Instead I was shrugged off by the idiot teachers that couldn't even answer a question asked by a five year old..
And seriously.. Try explaining politics to normies.. That isn't exactly a short discussion, that's more like, trying to deprogram someone that's been in a cult.. The repetition in their arguments, when you look for it, is mind blowing.. It's like an episode of Tucker Carlson on repeat.. The best outcome I've been able to get from those discussions, is either A: they give up and stop responding, B: they hit with anther bit of repetition I'm sure we've all heard "Capitalism isn't perfect, but it works/is the best we've got".
Like, seriously, millions of homeless people, millions of suicide cases, millions of starving people barely scraping by from month to month, and a social culture that has us all perpetually at one another's throats, and THIS is the best we can do..? IMO, that sounds like an opinion spoken by a true patriot/Nazi.
There's so much history that categorically teaches us to be better/smarter than this, yet no one seems to get it..
@@sizlax I don't know where you are from and how old you are, but I am 50 and in my highschool days in the Netherlands there were no special schools or classes for smart kids. It was a struggle for me because my mind wanders off if any subject didn't interest me. Economic lessons? Blabla, Keynes and his theory and so forth were completely boring. But I used those classes to read Dostojevski, Tolstoy an Shakespeare. Or I was reading about old mythology in history books.. got me often in problems, and with my unfiltered mouth I got expelled from school for a week or so. And I fucking loved it! Just time to be by myself and read and listen music, for me a suspension was a treat, not a punishment. And I had the luck that my mom was a teacher as well so she never got angry, she was proud of me because I used those weeks productively by studying the subjects I liked to the smallest details. At my exams and in class that caused me some problems because I regularly had to answer questions that were were just not possible to answer because there were more possible explanations. And teachers don't like it when students point out their lack of multi dimension thinking.. But in the end I did graduate, but mostly they wanted me to fuck off because they were so tired of me.. And the rest of my education i got in the local library, costs me maybe 100 a year, but most of my friend have to pay back their study loans that run into tens of thousand euro's! And still often their theories are invalid.. but they know me and don't mind. More of them have said to me they use me as their Encyclopedia for whatever question they have, and use me as if i was google! So all in all, life can be a bitch, but I kind of like it a lot nowadays!
As an autist (and someone who didn't even realize their brain was different when they were younger, and it was only when I got older that i realized my brain worked differently and I looked up the symptoms of autism and 90% of everything I saw fit perfectly with how I was different from others) that church analogy was pretty cool. I was like "I could probably imagine a church without thinking of one" and then IMMEDIATELY when I tried it I realized my brain jumped directly to a church I've known and been to before, completely automatically. Very interesting talk.
are you diagnosed autistic? if youre not diagnosed youre not autistic, stop self diagnosing its not healthy
Do you have a diagnosis? Lol
@@naegleriafowleri2230tbh I was diagnosed and I hardly have any of the traits associated with autism 😂
I wonder if it extrapolates further than that. When I read something and imagine the scenes described they're always either literally something I've seen or pieced together from different elements of things familiar to me.
@@naegleriafowleri2230literally anyone could if they wanted to and phrased their answers the right way. Im wonder how long this junk "science" will last
I'm 21 now, but I remember drawing houses with smoking chimneys as a kid. As far as I can attempt to remember, I drew the smoking chimney's because it's extra detail that's easy to draw, which felt like a good way to make it look more impressive. Also, it makes the house look more alive and grounded in the reality of the picture. As far as where my young mind got the entire concept of a smoking chimney from, that's probably because of reinforced conceptual cues I got through media like children's TV, existing paintings, storybooks, and school teachers' influences.
The stick person reminded me of the day my dad broke my brain. I drew something similar but my stick figure didn’t have a neck, my dad asked if it looked like him asking me were the fingers are etc. I just remember looking back and forth between my drawing and my old man and I couldn’t understand why I drew that stick figure person. I became a good artist as a teen as a result. Was very odd
Funny. My little boy drew his stick figures without necks or torsos lol. Just a face and limbs. I thought it was adorable and never said anything about it. Very soon he started drawing them the usual way on his own
My kid is high functioning autistic. She never had issues with language, quite the opposite. She often speaks like from a different time. She struggles with social skills though.
Yes because the difference in autism and aspergers is language and motor function. I have Aspergers which is now under the umbrella definition of autism, and many people wonder why I have zero problems with language and 'big words'.
Initially all Autists have issues with grasping the language fundamentals due to taking words too literally, but precisely because of that we constantly strive to enrich our vocab to be more articulate and often think of deep aspects of the language such as the word semantics, which in the long run makes us more likely to become extremely proficient with the language. As an evidence to that English is my second language, mostly self-taught, and has little to nothing in common with my first one, which is Russian, adding on a lot to the difficulty of learning.
Because "autism" isnt real, its just a convenient label for people to pretend what they are talking about
Its quite common for Autistic people to have a very high IQ in the Gifted range
The way Jordan Peterson says a child draws all those things is the exact way I as an adult would.
It is almost as if adults teach children how to draw.
@@clioaspinade9275 Do you think? I don't find most children need encouragement to draw. A lot are told to draw differently or to draw different things by adults, but I don't think adults tell them to draw things the way Peterson describes. There's a great Ted talk about education where the speaker says "We're all born creative but it's taught out of most of us".
@@qayttlynnequixano9613 How so?
Sara Wolfram What? Lmao Shutup
I agree that we are all born creative and it's taught out of us. Or shamed out of us if our ideas are just slightly out of line with our teachers/peers/parents.
Btw I think the children get the smoke from the chimney from watching cartoons and movies . I had a chimney and I’m only 18 . I seen a lot of those images on shows when I was a lot younger . So the more you know .
I’m a 23 year old man recently diagnosed with autism and just starting to lean about it. The thing that hurts me the most about it is the disability to properly learn to speak to just be able to put sentences together. Most people I talk to think I’m dumb or have a mental illness. It’s incredibly frustrating. I speak English and Spanish (both very badly)I’ve got a wide vocabulary i know a lot more words than an average person but still speaking feels more like a math problem than expression
Mars ~> If you have a mobile, you can text what you want to say. Even put it on speaker.
If you are attempting to converse with someone you don’t know, then write what you want to say in Notes.
For example a food order. The server will usually always read the order from your phone.
As a 46 year old who recently discovered his autism, I can relate. The problem isn't with you. You are awesome and sufficient. The problem is that neurotypicals don't know how to communicate without adding complicated unnecessary social fluff. There are what appear to you to be secret rules for you to follow. You aren't slow, you can probably communicate intelligently and quickly if you can get past the social language barriers that been erected in front of you. The problem is that you have to translate into a strange language for most of the population to understand you. That takes time and energy.
@@douglasedwards6830 I feel like I relate to this but can you explain what you mean with adding social fluff??
Feels like you are doing math equation? Words will have they own meaning but miss or replace with wrong one and the whole thought is out of portion sort of?
Jordan is absolutely right. I am 52 years old and I have autism. Just to pick out one point. If my wife moves anything to a different place in the house, it makes me very frustrated, and then I have to contemplate the reason why she would have done that.
Lol no, there is no such thing as autism. Its a meaningless label
@@enterpassword3313Someone got a diagnosis they didn’t like. Don’t worry, you’ll accept it eventually
Because she dislikes you and wants you to suffer.
Uhhh I’m 19 and I still can’t draw a house better than a pentagon
I can't always draw a good stick figure.
My 1909 house looks like that, just add the porch over the steps, 1& 1/2 story
Lmaooo same
You should need to be able to draw a house before you attempt to set the world in order.
yeahp same here
“Chimney with smoke,” in a drawing of a house or church represents “projection of inner psychological warmth associated with human emotion and nourishment.” This generic interpretation comes from Buck’s “House-Tree-Person Projective Drawings Test.” The H-T-P test is one of the more popular projective drawings tests given to patient’s to draw as part of a battery of psychological testing. Hope this comment is helpful.
It certainly is, thanks for sharing. I haven't heard of projective drawing tests before - I'll check out Buck's HTP test to start
I think it's a simple way of adding dynamics to a drawing or it's otherwise "dead". This is from artistic perspective and I think even children have that tendency to make drawing more livelier or in their mind more realistic.
Would be interesting to see if children who had been abused or maltreated add the chimney with smoke.
It also has to do with imagery kids see on t.v. and in children's books. Pretty much it's because of Disney.
Thats exactlx how children think! XD
As an autistic person, I find this very fascinating. You "normal" people think in strange ways.
@@lordjaraxxus663 Yes
I'm also an aspie/autistic. Would you care to explain how exactly this video facinated you? Like in general...what observations have you made on "normal people" that come off as strange to you? (As I'm sure we have both come to different conclusions and I'd be interested to compare mine to yours! lol)
@DAMIEN that's not normal people things it's dumb social unwritten rules things which- oh okay, I see your point...
Came here to say this, knew in my heart it had already been said. I wish JP were more studied in Autistic people, that would be an amazing video series.
@@Alienrun I just noticed your comment 4 months later and now I feel bad for not responding sooner. Anyway...
I've noticed that normal people LIE a lot, and that they expect others to lie as well. The most important thing I do to blend in with them is that I practice lying in front of a mirror every day. Practicing my lies has been really helpful because I learned how to control my voice and control my face. Now people are much more comfortable with me.
I still don't understand why normies want to lie so much. I can understand lying to strangers about your feelings, but then they'll go on facebook and tell millions of strangers their true feelings just because they think nothing will happen to them. The only conclusion I can deduce is that they don't believe their choices matter.
Finally, I have never seen or heard anyone describe what happens in my head. It's so emotional for me, I hadn't been able to pinpoint what it was.
Children are essentially trained by adults to draw the little house with the curly smoke. It's always used as the definitive example of a child's drawing, therefore children think it's what they're supposed to draw, and the cycle continues. It's the icon of an icon of an icon.
im not sure about that.. maybe ..also maybe its just logical to think that a chimney is used to make fire and smoke, and Santa comes down it
@@bobbyhulll8737 Sure it's logical that smoke comes out of a chimney, but it is also logical that toast comes out of a toaster but every kid with a set of crayolas doesn't draw this over and over again.
@@colywogable no one is asking a kid to draw a toaster, every kindergarten or grade 1 teacher asks for a house over and over .. i'm not saying you're wrong im just saying i don't know if you are right, it's an interesting thought
@@bobbyhulll8737 But that was exactly my point! Kids draw the chimney house because parents and teachers always show it to them as the definitive example of a drawing by a kid. Peterson was saying that they draw it for some primal reason. I'm saying that if we scrapped the house drawings and showed kids cute toaster drawings then they'd imitate those drawings and would never draw the house. Maybe....
@@colywogablewell JP didn't say why he just said it was interesting teachers don't tell you how to draw they just tell you to draw ..all i can say is I've done it I didnt even know that our house had a chimney at all..its weird
I can listen to this man speak about any subject. He’s riveting to me.
I watched a documentary last week about how ships are being made, it was riveting too.
Yuck
He has what I call a "telephone book" voice: He could read out the names, addresses, and numbers in the phone book and it would seem interesting. (Successful preachers have that ability.)
@Koko Roko I see what you did there😅
@@superuberjedimaster Underrated joke.
This is very clearly someone who doesn't remotely understand autism explaining what autism is (poorly) to other people who don't understand what autism is. After this lecture, they continue to not understand what autism is, but now they think they know what it is.
You hit the nail on the head.
Autistic people are much harder to characterize than he suggests. Some autistic kids love people, to the point of being cuddly and clingy, and comfortable with holding strangers' hands.
No two autistics are the same, so to speak. My son and I are both autistic but we have differences in symptoms and behaviours.
For me, I never really connected with people for 21 years and I was not one for physical contact. Then I connected with someone... Who is now my girlfriend... I am very cuddly and stuff.
I guess this means your example is 2 ends of a very complex slider.
@Agent J ? What does this have to do with the original posters comment?
@Agent J
If I may ...
The following is conjecture on my part, thus what I elucidate may be wrong, and am willing to be stood corrected if that may be the case ...
Like yourself, the written word can sometimes be 'flat'. That is to say, without knowing the author, it may be, especially with internet comments, hard to extrapolate a person's intent, let alone intonation, tonality, and so forth behind said comment. As a former internet forum Administratior, establishing that, especially when a complaint has been made about a comment, isn't always straightforward ...
For instance, her first comment didn't, when I read it, come over to me as being too critical, but rather more confused. Ergo, it came across rather more as puzzled, and hence a request for further elucidation ...
That saying, a further comment you made ("I recommend you follow results, that are celebrated by your values") is well said. Most scientists would agree, that following results, using the base value of enquiry, if not curiosity, was the means by which, one can argue, most of the significant discoveries were made. Further, one can argue that asking "What if ...?" is part and parcel of the scientific method.
Trouble is, values can also cloud judgements. If one persuses results to validate personal values, it would be too easy to ignore some results, as one establishes said values. One can argue that the disagreements that E. O. Wilson, Stephen Jay Gould, and Richard Dawkins have had with each other over evolution, may well have been over how each interpreted, and extrapolated, results based off of personal values. Although much is known about evolution, there is still much that remains debatable, such as how the first unicellular life came to be ....
That, neatly, leads to "blame and excuses are only required when you're already wrong".
My query is how do you know when a person is "already wrong" ...? Granted, anything below post-graduate studies, and even at masters level, is easier, as the results come about from pre-existing experimentation, when the answers, within a specific statistical range, is expected, along with elucidation of those results, as an example.
But at post-Doctoral level things are not so clear-cut. It is why, at least within the STEM field, properly adjudicated peer-review in order that, say, a paper outlying a de-novo technique, is properly analyized, as to establish whether the results given are actually what the experimenters say that they are, barring any kind of fraud. Scientific fraud, in terms of published papers, are fortunatly, rare, although, as with the MMR scandle, complacency must be avoided ...
But I have digressed for too long ...
To be fair, the only comment I can see begins with "Nearly everyone defending insanity is fighting to feel right [;] those fighting to do right are always offensive to the lazy".
There may have been a further comment, but that is the only one that I can read on my (abet aging ...) smartphone. Thus contex becomes everything.
Yes, there is insanity in the world, especially in academia at the moment, formented by the aptly named "Grievance Studies"; a collective term for college courses, usually within the Humanities and Social Sciences, such as "Woman's Studies", "Gender Studies", and many more, that one can go back and see are branches from "Critical Theory", that itself came out of Post-Modernism, especially certain French Philosophers, that derived their work from the Frankfurt School. That we can agree on is not only "Grievance Studies" are insane, but, like creeping dry rot, threatens the very veracity, and structure of academia, even the STEM subjects, due to inculcation of students by certain radicalized instructors, whom were themselves radicalized as students ... the meltdown at the campus of The Evergreen State College, in Olympia, Washington (State) is a prime example of such insanity in action ...
But as the first comment in this thread was describing the variations in the way children with autism may behave/react, your comment seems ... out of place ...
In a way you seem to be right; many do, and have, chose to fight, and die, over what they have chose to believe ...
"[W]hose working for it, amazed how easy it is with such a great support system, to feel blessed?"
I am not sure where that connects with the first comment of this thread, which, as I mentioned above, is to do with how varied children with autism may behave, and react, towards adults.
Indeed, your comment could be interpreted in several different ways is possibly why she replied with her question, and why, based off of my individual values, didn't see it as being hostile, but rather confusion, especially, again based off of my own values, what you said is open to wide interpretation.
That it can be interpreted in many ways, some less charitable than others, thus leads me to this: since yours is seemingly of an empirical mind, might you expand upon it, and draw the correlation between what you said, and the orginal comment on children with autism ...? And may it possibly do with the current social security/healthcare provision vs anything proposed ...?
@Agent J you are not worth talking to
“Autism” presents in many, many forms. A number of individuals on the spectrum have no idea that their neurological predispositions are not typical.
Often we are not diagnosed, or diagnosed very late. Autistic people who are intelligent and high in openness and conscientiousness have the capacity to learn how to adjust their behavior as children so as to *NOT* be identified as “different.” We are generally referred to as Asperger’s.
And the ability to abstract (what he’s discussing here) is a spectrum of its own. Sometimes (unlike Grandin) we can over-compensate by taking the very idea of abstraction to extremes.
This ability, combined with an uncanny knack for pattern recognition (another autistic trait), is part of what makes Dr. P such an effective thinker and synthesizer of others’ ideas.
I’m not an expert diagnostician by any means, but I’m pretty sure that he is on the spectrum.
I've been told by a psychologist that I'm highly likely to be autistic but at the high functioning level, Asperger's. I think the world from a point we became focused on services rather than producing goods exposed more autism as the career entry was more social skilled, and interview based, than precise pedantic practical skilled where ones ability to accomplish was prized above ability to socially shine in an interview.
It's true that "normal" people are totally weird to us but I think "normality" is a socioeconomic construct to perpetuate a service focused economy. We are, in this age, redundant, when in a former Industrial Age our skills were essential and highly prized due to our fastidious nature of being perfectionist. I suspect many autistics were within skilled trades and never diagnosed as such because their ability was respected and admired.
For me Temple Grandin doesn't represent typical autism as we love animals far more than humans and slaughtering them is anathema to us. An eccentric Bohemian may be a better description. The caricature of an emotionless being without empathy defines traditional psychological approaches but it's been exposed as a lie because we lack the social skills to express such emotions and interact in more practical based solutions to emotional upheavals. It's a different perspective, not a fault. Carl Popper would praise our different view on seeing things.
The first few weeks of lockdown collapsed our structured life but oddly after the initial upheaval it looked as if everyone had joined us in our social world of fairly constricted scope as going out was restricted to what suits us. I'm guessing that many autistics actually engaged more within this formal process than in that usually dominated by overtly social peacocks, who, I believe, sat it out in isolation interacting on social media. A very odd social world that, for a month or so, was actually enjoyable. I'm within a rural suburban style place so perhaps cities were different.
Now, with masks becoming mandatory, I'm not doing so well as the facial covering destroys the area autistics focus on, the mouth, to gain some perspective on the intent of the speaker or face before them. It's a complex time for autistics and not at all uniform in how masks are viewed. Some actually enjoy the act of concealing their mouths given it disguises any inappropriate facial gestures that they can't control.
Dr P, if you search recent events, has only just emerged from an addiction issue. He's thin and pale on interviews conducted by his daughter. I'm unsure if he's autistic but his passionate focus on topics and breathtaking scope of knowledge mean he eventually burnt out. It's an OCD addiction to comprehending complex societal interactions that seems to have undermined his sanity, temporarily. That may indicate Asperger's and the inclination to obsess on specific topics however his scope was far reaching and mind bending in complexity. He overworked his brain.
@Frames P3rSecond I don't like them either.
Jordan Peterson has way too much insight to be on the spectrum. You have to watch more of his lectures to be able to understand that he is able to have insight to another person’s world by the way he describes things. Watch the videos that he discusses about relationships and intra-personal dealings. Having been in a relationship for five years with someone with asked burgers who is very highly functioning in a lucrative career and basically undetected and less up close and personal on a regular basis, there’s no way he could produce the insight that Jordan Peterson is here. Or in any of his lectures
Lee Baxter Inside is not created it is something you experience and understand. Creating insight is essentially falsifying so maybe I don’t understand your point. And none of it matters anyway autism is a spectrum just as people say. It’s only a disability as one poster put it if it limits your interactions with other humans on a regular basis to the point of sorting and causing frustration. Insight means being able to anticipate another person‘s needs, how they may react, it’s about being able to understand what the other person internal world is like without them having to explain it to you. It’s difficult to explain if it’s not something you’re able to do but it’s definitely not something you can synthesize. You’re either able to do it or you cant. Babies are able to determine this, toddlers and small children if you watch them play on the programs in the same way. If you’ve gotten to adulthood and don’t have the ability it’s not likely to ever develop
Our numbers are vastly underestimated, imho.
i LOVE how easy he makes issues broken down to the main ingredients its amazing
My favorite 3-year-old wanted to draw with chalk on the sidewalk. I had no idea what to draw. So I started drawing a house. I had just finished the basic pentagon and she goes “you’re drawing a house”
I then gave it a door, two windows, and a chimney with smoke. Because a chimney with smoke looks better.
She then said she was gonna write her mom’s name. I was impressed. Then she just wrote ‘Mom’
you have several 3 year olds and made one your favourite? I'm sure JP could lecture on that! (kidding: vb: engl - to make kids)
@@guyb7005 lol she’s my second cousin and the only (now) 4-year-old I know
It’s always so weird hearing someone explain feelings I have to other people
Im a 23-year-old black autistic woman and I love Jordan Peterson!
Child: "This is a person."
Jordan Peterson sticking his head out of a green screen: "ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT!?"
Tha pfp gave me some good flashbacks
@@manikn4585 cringe.
@@manikn4585 wait what show is it from?
@@BiscuitZombies how's that cringe
@@kartech6938 it's from a movie - A silent voice
This was good although Jordan was a little too general in his descriptions of Autism. I have a 21 year old autistic son (not Aspbergers). Didn't start speaking til he was 8. He was had difficulty socially and seemed to be lost in himself. By the time he was 13 things started to change. He began to become more friendly and happy. Now at 21 and just completing public school he's called by many the mayor of our town. You can't go anywhere without him knowing someone or someone recognizing him. He has countless friends both in Special Needs and the typical community. He's alo become very dependent and the most responsible person in our household. If there's one thing I can tell you about Autism is they are as different and individual as typical people...
My son is Autistic. he had at a early age a facination with letters, ABC and so forth. He learnt to read Swedish by watching youtube and other media all by himself at age 3.5. he is no 5 and communicate almost fluidly in English. Swedish is our native language
As someone on the spectrum myself, I believe I am an exception to a lot the unproductive traits associated with autism.
Somehow I am extremely capable of abstraction and can sometimes even abstract so much that I can almost instantly understand any system and even sense its meaning by intuition.
My theory is that its because my linguistic intelligence is tested to be my highest, which is very uncommon for people on the spectrum. It seems to have balanced the scales and makes my autism more of a blessing than a curse, making me highely functioning and more able to overcome social obstacles simply through relying on linguistic ability.
However, I do scope in on every single detail without it usually being necessary, causing me to be slow at solving certain problems or take long to make a decision, it does help that it decreases the chance of me making mistakes but it is often not needed.
Ty for your comment .. my youngest son is high functioning drives a car alone ( to drive thru and when school was safe) but when asked a question to choose he gets stuck. He does not have the gift yet to speak fluently and does rant or become depressed in the limitation. We as his family talk to him all the time he has two older brothers that include in surfing and biking and his dad is his best friend... just wish he could have friends that’s been lonely.... but you helped shine perspective along with this speaker.
I also test highly on tests related to vocabulary. It was also one of my strengths. I think language development is now known to often be very advanced in many with ASD level 1 and paradoxically lags in ASD levels 2 and 3. (For example, many "aspies" are known to have stunningly advanced vocabularies for their age. It is part of the reason why they are said to seem pedantic and were originally thought of as "little professors.") I think now this is more an inverse relationship in certain skill sets when we refer to what was once diagnosed as Aspergers versus other forms like CDD, PDD-NOS or classic childhood autism which more frequently presents with more difficulties with spoken language. All groups on the spectrum seem to have issues with how they use language, however, and those with ASD level 1 still are said to be weaker in areas relating to non-literal use of language, although many compensate with additional focus and can massively improve over time. This is why many are able to mask better as adults.
What Peterson fails to mention here is that autism is a spectrum disorder. So no two autists are exactly the same. They are as diverse in skills and thinking as neurotical people. They just have some common problems amd strengths sometimes
Me too verbal intelligence tested as being in the 99th percentile - and I apparently started talking early. Same with the abstraction. My work is in coimputing which is all abstraction. I also scope in on details, which in my field is incredibly useful in debugging issues, but does at times cause me to work slower on some tasks - and definately effects my abiloity ot make decisions in my private life.
That said the abstraction also makes me think about big picture better than some of my neurotypical peers at times - sometimes people don't really think about the solutions they are ofereing to problemsl because they don't understand or have forgotten what the problem really is.
Being able to ask the question "what is the real problem we re trying to solve?" and being able to answer it by abstracting the problem/question lets me see the big pitcure very well - at times.
We are all different but learning languages also came easy to me. English is my second language. I was never good with numbers. I’m good at writing and reading in other languages. I’m so high functioning that I appear normal. I don’t have any of these subtle autistic mannerism and subtleties I’ve noticed in most autistics especially body language. Ive heard autistic people say they are high functioning and pass as normal, but I can still sense and notice their autism through body language and facial expressions.
I remember meeting Temple Grandin, she was very interesting, but she definitely had some social deficits, when I met her, it was her birthday, so I said "Happy birthday" to her, and her response was "You too." Her mother was a delight, by the way, one of the most admirable people I've ever seen.
I have done this before
Yeah. It's got nothing to do with autism. Her mind was elsewhere and you caught her off guard. Hence, generic acceptable response.
I had my apt neighbor that I find creepy ask me if I’m staying home for thanksgiving. I said “you too” to not really talk to him so he thinks I thought he said happy thanksgiving 😆
I also heard Temple speak and she related that she thinks in “pictures” she has on “file.” Another way of thinking per Jordan.
I am autistic and i have to think like that. Thats why it takes so long to read a book if i want to understand it, i have to create an image in my mind for almost every sentence
I can very much relate to that-it’s like a file cabinet.
True, it was one of the things talked about in my diagnosis was that i described accessing a memory like using a filing system.
@@idonteven3712 damn, that ain't normal?
@@nightfighter7452 yea lol I guess we have autism too
The example of the kitchen reminds me of my grandmother when she was a child. Her mother had her hair cut short, and she said "you're not my mother anymore." It's not "my mother with short hair", it's "not my mother."
I automatically imagined an interior of a church
please tell me you've done that too
Only when someone asks specifically about the Sistine Chapel...
Or when I'm asked about the Inquisition, in which case I imagine a grand council of robed old men in a cathedral, holding gavels each, passing judgment on the horrified heathen in the room.
_On a wooden roundtable they all were seated, staring down the poor sot who had come under their radar. He feared death, punishment, torture, intimidation and possiblt worse, quickly looking back and forth between the various old men._
_Alas, their power came not from the full extent of the punishment they could dish, but the secrey surrounding it. The poor sot had no idea that the worst that they could do was banishment from the local county... No idea that they could only torture him _*_for_*_ information and not for converting him. No idea that already a council of cardinals in Roma were going through the thousands of cases the Inquisitors had processed through, attempting to root out any misdemeanour or corrupt action in this Inquisition._
_As far as he knew, they held the keys to life and death. They were the highest court in the land and had the power to do whatever they normally did to heretics... He just had no idea that he was simply being investigated for reading a mistranslated Bible and that the worst they could do was confiscate his Bible - possibly to replace it._
_Ah, but that was the power of these Grand Inquisitors. The secrecy, the cloak of power and mystery... the seemingly infinite amount of ways the imagination could blind one to what they were actually asking of him. Success! Success! He pleaded!_
_To which the man in the center asked "Wait, what? We didn't even ask for the exact name of the woman whom you had commited adultery with behind your wife's back... we simply wanted to ask where you had gotten your Bible from, because you've been preaching some heniously wrong mistranslations."_
The outside never occurred to me
When he said, church? Yes. When he rephrased to, 'front of a church'? No.
I imagined the interior as well.
what, you think you’re autistic?
An insight into my own brain. I'm autistic. I struggle with abstraction. The abstract image of a house, I recognize, but not as an abstraction of what a house is. I recognize it as a shape that conveys the idea of house, just like the word house does, but the word and the image both exist as separate objects in my brain and are not representations of a house. Where I really struggle though is reading emotion displayed through faces. I can't tell what people are feeling unless they say it. Then I typically ask why, because I don't always empathize with conditions that I haven't personally experienced.
And then there’s sarcasm and hypocrisy with which to contend. I commiserate. I’m considered “emotionally intelligent” and that is a struggle for me.
Im autistic as well. I'm really good in reading people's expressions and their emotional states, even I'm quite accurate to detect a lie or something untrue in a person - it was necessary for me to survive my upbringing.
I can spot every little change of tone, mimic, muscle tensions, eye movements - makes me someone, who always knows with whom I'm dealing with, of course I don't know, but oftentimes my picture of a person gets proofen after a time, but of course I do not always know - anyhow while many others don't and get into trouble for that later on.
I do also use sarcasm alot, because sometimes it's fun, I do get it as well when other people use sarcasm.
What I just don't get of people is how so many can be so interested in nothing, how they can't see the same details I see and how much they give about their ego. I sat already with superior managers, which calculated regressions in a not quite useful way, using the wrong models. So I explained that and pointed out, that that procedure appeared to me as not logical and I'd recommend my version, because it eludes some problems within the interpretation of the results. They told me I was wrong while I could see, that they knew I was right. Later then they corrected it and acted like I had never mentioned that.
It's so useless how many people do crappy stuff just cause of their ego and unresolved inner issues.
Well, but what I don't get is to express a woman, that I would like to get to know her better - even though I think I look really good. While other people getting compliments about their looks, I rarely get one, because my whole being in an working environment is masked - I'm just not that guy you do smalltalk with, I'm the one walking around, greeting nobody, though I want some informations or whatever else. I realize how they sometimes try to get into a conversation with me at the kitchen or at lunch, but I don't know about their stuff. I don't know about TV shows and lately I had to listen a conversation of 15 minutes length with a colleague about how much salt to put into boiling water - and this guy was my age, maybe 27-30. I mean what I'm supposed to say there - is that what some folks think about in their lunch pauses? Or they talk about women in a way I don't like and women talk about men in a way I don't like.
It's rare, that I find someone, I enjoy to talk to.
@@Gandalf_the_quantum_G
Hi, I agree with your points.
Sorry for long text and bad English (second language)
Actually self-diagnosed myself not long age (didn't went to professional doctor for diagnos, only asked one medical student who had experience of interacting with people who have autism (tho they were kids with really visible symptoms) I knew), but there is still thought that I'm overthinking, and your comment (and how similar your thoughts with mine) made me think, that maybe I do indeed have autism.
Anyway, I have questions (to which you may not answer, if you lost your account password and I'm talking to a ghost of user, or you free not to answer, I told myself not to expect answer)
Does everybody think you're emotional when you're calm (but probably pretending to be emotional for a joke or different reasons, maybe to fit in)
Do they think you're calm when you're truly emotional (but pretending to be calm to not show of too much emotions, but still hoping that somebody sees, notices that small gap in your mask, but when somebody does it (which is a miracle) they star to focus not on things you said, but how you said them, that you're hiding your emotions, trying to humiliate you)
It happened with (that's why there is so much detail) but with time I stopped minding it, actually, when someone tries to humiliate me it amuses me, because of how funny or sad their internal reasons to do so.
Oh, do you find funny how man and woman both call each other stupid, disgusting or too lustful, but they're the same, not because they're a man or a woman, but because they are humans, but that would be similarities, but they seek differences and a way to humiliate one another to feel more powerful?
(And now I humiliate them, fuck...
yeah, I'm human too, heh)
Upd. Oh, by the way, people have many beautiful sides to them, or just I so disappointed, that I see at least something as beautiful.
But that drive to help others, even when powerless or little power play or... shit, help me, it's really hard to remember something
@@arthurandstuff8677 hey mate, english is also my second language, next time maybe just give Google translator a try ;).
I do not quite get what you want to express in the end by all that comment, but let me try to answer your questions:
Nobody is humiliating me, because I'm a good person and never have bad intentions, what I try to do is helping humans being themselfs, which to many seems like a huge thing. So I don't engage in any humiliating action and nobody I deal with either in business or privately is having a bad thought about me, because I do not have any about myself and I am always authentic, if I do make a mistake, I am open and friendly and willing to see my mistake and take the responsibility for my actions.
That's by the way the reason why I couldn't have contact with my family of origin anymore since they didn't take any responsibility for themselves and their life's, thereby they also did not take responsibility for my own upbringing and alot of bad things happened, also that I never got diagnosed even though I'm a Kanner autistic individual, so I'm grateful that I even developed language and everything else that makes me now.
Second: I'm never unbalanced in my emotions. I am always calm, there is nothing which can bring me out of balance since I always know that I'm a good person, I do not think bad thoughts, I make my jokes of course, but I never attach to anything generally. So if my boss would tell me tomorrow "you're fired, I hate you" I'd not take that as something bad. It would say something about him, not about me. And I did live on the street as teenager and it was also not that bad, I mean I'm still alive, healthy, good looking and an authentic character.
I do mask of course at work since I am just serious at work most of the time, but sometimes my dry humor is coming through. People do like me at work, specially recently, since I didn't attach anymore to anyone I made huge jumps in that what people do call "career".
And to the last question: to me it is not funny when people hold their selfs in their personal drama and blame other people for their own shortcomings - it is generating bad emotions, sadness while I can see that that is just the surface of consciousness, the identification as a human, which is a "persona", it's not who one really is. It's just a construct. And it seems to have many benefits to survival, but stress, fights, violence, humiliation, sadness, mobbing - it is all product of that. And it's a completely senseless product since nobody actually benefits from it really.
Where u from by the way? We could speak in german, french or Italian as well :). Howsoever have a good one. I hope I was able to answer your questions to a degree.
This is some excellent camera work: it allows Peterson to move around the frame when standing in one place in the room, but follows him around the room by framing him in the centre.
Not positive, but I think he had an arrangement with film students to come in and practice camera work for credits. He used to film himself with a fixed camera up close and at a desk.
This helped as I'm always getting lost in orchards.
Thank you! Finally someone explained my trouble with all this!
temple grandin is the architect of the mootrix
Brilliant
"Some people doodle at work when they let their mind run. They draw houses... penises. Funny how the houses are always colonial and the penises are always circumcised. Don't you think?"
-Robert California
Hmmm.. I wonder if bored Chinese or Africans draw different things?
@@Mr1995Musicman I assume so... I do suspect the transparent cube would be found anywhere in the world
@@aix42 You know those native American tribe that lived(live?) in houses carved into cliffs? If you let their children doodle, and then asked an adult to explain the doodle, what would you get? Their houses aren't cubic structures in open space, and they definitely don't have smoke out of a chimney, so what would their childrens' house doodles look like?
@@Mr1995Musicman They would probably look very much like their own homes, drawn as simplified iconic representations. The transparent cube thing is my suspicion that it appears everywhere there is doodling. Like, just a cube for its own sake.
@@aix42 This stuff is totally interesting. Unfortunately I kinda missed the boat to become an anthropologist when I spent 4 years studying computers. Sometimes I wish there were 10 different clones of me that could actually pursue the answers to all these good questions
Where did this guy get the reputation he has?
As someone with Autism, this man is spot-on. :) Of course, I'm not severely Autistic, but I've always had trouble with sudden change. :)
Temple Grandin is an incredible woman who gives hope to the world's autistic people.
As someone on the spectrum, I don't like how his explanations and society's explanations revolve around children, as if it's something you outgrow
There’s a video floating around CZcams of a convention on neurological development and one of the talks involved the desire of humans to find patterns in everything. As a special guest, they invited Bobby McFerrin, a famous vocalist, to speak and in the middle of the talk, he stood up and demonstrated pattern recognition by standing in a certain spot on the stage and singing a certain note, urging with his body language for the audience to repeat the note. He used repetition to enforce that that spot was associated with that note. He then would move left across the stage to a new spot and made the next note up on the pentatonic scale. He would then jump back and forth between these two notes. Then, without saying a word, he went to the next spot to the left, but did not make a sound. However the audience had already caught on and made the sound without any impetus. He then went between all of these notes and the audience made all of the sounds.
But here’s the kicker: after jumping around those three notes, he went to the lowest note on this scale he and the audience had made, and then took it to a lower note. This is the first time he had introduced a note that was lower than the note before. AND THE AUDIENCE SANG IT WITHOUT SKIPPING A BEAT. Without saying a single word to anyone, just moving to different spots on a stage and making a note for each spot, he had trained an entire group of over 100 people to sing a pentatonic scale. He proceeded to use the entire audience to play back-up notes while he improvised a musical performance over their melody. He only used his position as orders on which notes to play. Anybody that has played with professional musicians knows that a hall mark of a good musician is how quickly they can pick up timing and queues in rehearsal: professional musicians often can go from never having played with a group to sounding like they’ve been together for ten years in the space of a single hour-long rehearsal. McFerrin, however, had taken a room of presumably non-musicians and done the very same through the power of pattern recognition.
I say all of that to say this. He noted after that he had never done that experiment and had it fail. My hypothesis, however, is that these expectation/anticipation style of teaching would fail absolutely miserably if it was tried on a group of autistic children. And I think it would be an excellent illustration to society of the difference between normal-functioning humans and those on the spectrum. Anyway, that’s enough for today.
Charles Fisher ~> Pattern recognition is quite, very often a skill of autists. Also, in many...so is perfect pitch. Citations abound in PubMed.
hollywoodjaded perfect pitch and pattern recognition but not social pattern recognition
I understand the cows who stop when they see a coke can. We all know how dangerous that product can be!
Cow: "the gods must be crazy!"
math28s as an autistic it makes a sharp noise as it falls over. Doesn’t stop me from loving soda though.
Gimme dat Mountain Dew.
Just stop drinking coke. Eventually you'll get used to it so much that you have no impulse to drink it at all
But coke adds life.
I've met Temple Grandon. She teaches at Syracuse university NY. Amazing woman. Strange in her own unassuming manner.
i think she teaches at Colorado State University. Maybe she was a visiting professor at Syracuse?
Thanks JP. This helps me. I have an employee with autism and sometimes we have a little difficulty communicating. I have to remember to limit abstraction in the communication.
Very thoughtful
if only more employers was like you, thanks for being a good person its rare ❤
Don’t limit abstraction, instead think: More details are required, to understand big picture issues (neurotypical thinking works in the reverse). He shows that he fundamentally doesn’t understand autism by using the stereotypical 1990s model as his example…but I suppose it was a good try for someone without field training.
For sure one of, if not the, greatest minds of our time!
Thank you Jordan for your continued efforts to pass on your gifts!
Love ya!
He is a great mind, but this is not a very good example,. he got most of his information and generalsations about autisitic people in this clip wrong.
He has confused or portraited the experience of one autistic person with all austistic people which is just wrong. Autism is described as a spectrum, precisely because its effects vary so much amongst autistic people.
I wish we could have seen more, but you did point to the original lecture, so thank you.
I love Temple Grandin. Her story is amazing.
I thoroughly enjoyed his speech. As an adult in the autism spectrum I find his explanations intriguing and very helpful. The slide presentation was of most interest as my brain was trying to make more shapes from the illustrations in the presentation. Our brains are wired in a much different fashion compared to normal people. The neurological side of the equation would be a topic of interest.
I find the "autism spectrum" is just a convoluted mess of labels that provide more contradiction than explanation. As far as i can see there essentially is no such thing as autism, its a meaningless label, technically everyone has it. When you say you are on the spectrum, what are you trying to say?
i’d like to hear more about autistic thought process possibly being akin to animal thought process.
that seemed to resonate with me.
i only recently, in my sixties, found out i test high on the autism scale.
i’m both very high functioning and high failure rate historically, which being autistic explains much of; but understanding an atypical cognitive process is still an ongoing challenge.
Grandan worked with stressed out animals who about to be killed. It wasn't studied in a very scientific way as she didn't compare cows living at a sanctuary where they are not going to be eaten. Nor did she compare the behavior to any other stressed and non stressed out animal.
@@lillypilly6440
the methodology used might indicate researcher bias.
my statement was more addressing human thought modes and possible comparisons to animal-type cognition. the study mentioned seemed overly framed to a desired end.
@Haley Clyburn
animal thought is far less deranged than human thought at this point in divergence.
the mental processes that allow us to sublimate self to society carry inherent dangers.
I do not think in language. No words. I think in concepts, emotions, and ideas. However, I have very poor vision, so it’s possible I would think in images if I had normal vision.
@Haley Clyburn I understand where you are coming from - animals generally have little to no rights, and are subject to being mistreated, so some sociopaths might mistake the comparison as a sign to mistreat Autists as well. The difference between the two lies in the intelligence levels, so despite all the struggles, Autists are still capable of becoming functioning, and even successful members of society. The comparison of perception between the two is rather made for clearer understanding how Autists percieve the world, not in the way to excuse treating them in the same abusive manner some people treat animals.
This was very insightful
Ah, this is probably why autistic folk make such excellent software QA people.
Programmer: this screen has all the same pieces as the last version.
QA: It's a completely different screen! Look here!
Programmer: ah, I didn't notice that.
I believe autism can be reaction to too much stimuli in environment. My son and I have comprehensive problems when too much is given to process their a blockage until the information can be processed through. It makes it uncomfortable in a day of billions of bytes of information coming into our brains.
I definitely think general autism is caused by experiences of extreme over stimulation of a child's mind at key points in its early development!!!
No, it's genetic. It's not "caused" by something.
@@johnscanlan9335 No, just no.
It's the same thing he's saying: a constant highest resolution perception of the world where most people's brains learn to shut off and filter uneeded info that they've never had to use, to save energy and put energy into processing what they do process, a lot more efficiently
Am high functioning. My repeated nightmares when I was younger involved things not being where I had left them. Now, my immediate supervisor works opposite shifts with me. She moves something every day. Whyyyyy?
Because she is a shallow vindictive person. She knows it bothers you, so she does it to illicit a reaction. It is a situation you cannot control. What you can control is your reaction to it. Stop reacting, and most likely she will stop.
@@cawensil3264 That's reaching.. Unless you know something other than a random person in CZcams comments knows. "Normal" people are careless about details so even you might not see some things happening and so can't understand if someone focuses on different things.
It is called a pattern of behavior. Repetative bahior that illicit a desired reaction. Once is tolerable. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is a pattern. Still think I am reaching?
@@cawensil3264 Your point is that they do it to annoy, my point is that they might not know they are annoying anybody.
I've utilized some of her ideas in my cow herd .... I think she's pretty brilliant!
I’m unhappy to realize that Dr. Doofenshmirtz is kind of written in that way and that he cannot recognize Perry the platypus without the hat. Also it would seem that peekaboo is sort of the same way too and that you’re surprised that they’re gone and they came back again but it didn’t really happen that way, but it visually appeared that way.
Wow this is very insightful for someone who (I’m guessing) hasn’t properly studied psychology. What you’ve mentioned there is basically object permanence, babies don’t have this up until a certain point in their development. Without OP a baby will consider anything they cannot directly see as having ceased to exist. So yes, exactly what you’re saying, the baby reacts as if it is a whole new thing
What he is saying is slightly off.
Language can provide so many different meaning. The literal is so very used. Social instincts are required to interpret it. It is not a limit of abstraction, but rather, unsure of what main stream society will hone in on as the obvious interpretation. This is why Aspergers and Autism can be better over time-we can learn what main stream society will will opt for as an instinctual interpretation over time; which suggests that normal people aren't as abstractual, but rather agreeing on unstated meanings (singular thought even though not literal)
Bingo
As an autistic, I agree. It feels like being a foreign person trying to learn a completely new culture. It gets better with time, but there's always a clash with social conventions.
@Hans Hanzo and everyone agrees on those things, but you don't see and don't fully understand. You may get to the level of pretending, but there will be a situation in which it shows you didn't know certain thing was meant to be done or said.
@Hans Hanzo My husband is my "translator".
Yesssss!
In his example the levels of abstraction tend toward simplification. I think the opposite is true in autism whereby you notice more details than other people see.
I LOVE TEMPLE GRANDIN!!!! I read about her livestock equipment being circular in the 1970's in Western Horseman magazine.She would lay out with the cows.
My hubby and I were driving past some cattle pastures on the way to town, and a glider was drifting down into the field, the rider we assumed lived there, or were friends with the owners, the house was near the highway. There is a good mountain range right behind that section of highway, so they had to have come down from there. The fun part is that as the glider was landing, ALL the cows were RUNNING toward him. We should have stopped to see what happened, but we know cows are pretty curious, and we have noticed they do investigate things. When we came back there were two gliders parked there in the pasture, so obviously there was a partner and they both must have landed safely, and we assume the cows didn't hurt anyone.
Chimney with smoke is common in Alberta in the winter. When the heat comes on, it looks like smoke coming from a chimney
Kind of explains why Stephen Wiltshire can trace vast city landscapes from memory. He can't visualize it any other way.
Never thought of it that way
I always thought it was just because he had an amazing memory due to his autism, but your explanation really gives a fuller picture as to what’s going on inside his head. He *literally* can not visualize anything other than what he has seen. Fascinating.
Just listening to snippets of Dr. Peterson tells me that students fortunate enough to have him as their professor are truly being enriched, not merely taught content.
Really? I feel the opposite.
2:23 "I don't know where kids that exactly" This is super funny. I find this question super intriguing cuz I drew houses like this a lot as well. And I live in the tropics so we definitely don't have chimneys 😆 guessing it's the influence of the entertainment industry
The thing about the church/ house thing, I related really hard when I heard the whole "Can't imagine an abstract version of a church". As someone with Aspergers, I remember whenever I read books, especially ones with schools in them, I can't imagine the school looking like anything except one I've been to. Weird.
I'm wondering if you also happen to have aphantasia, or is your mind's eye able to easily imagine things?
Hm...I thought that was normal. Every time I read a fictional description of something, I picture it looking like something I've actually seen and don't really fabricate a new image usually. If it's not comparable to anything I've experienced (e.g. Chamber of Secrets), then it might be a little bit easier to imagine it without a reference getting in the way. Well, until something happens in the book that can't work with my mental topography (uh oh, it said she turned left into the kitchen...now I have to rebuild the whole thing)
I can picture a generic house, church, etc. though.
This is weird to me. I allegedly have aspergers, but I have a very wild and vivid imagination and have no problem visualizing things that I have never perceived before.
That is strange. I just imagine the description they give in books but its context is usually there from the setting. I can always imagine any structure regardless if I have seen it before... For example, I've never seen a magical cape of doom but I can imagine what it might look like, you know.
im also autistic and i cant relate at all to what hes saying :P im really good at abstract and catching the gist of something. But remembering specific details etc is suuuper hard
My daughter is severely autistic. She’s so highly intelligent, and she has an unbelievable photographic memory, but cannot apply her knowledge to life. That’s a more general description of a severely autistic person. Add no language, imagine the frustration. Although, she can read perfectly. They are all different. There’s not a simple template to slot them in. So many countless factors & issues, also. She’s extremely happy because I made sure she was always around a lot of people. I exposed her to the things that bothered her...to desensitize those issues. It was a great success. She’s now 30 yrs old and her only real issue in frustration is “waiting” for something. Like being in a line. That bothers most of us, but it’s intolerable to her.
Children's drawings of a person look so little like a person that anyone who lays eyes on these drawings immediately knows it's a representation of a person.
we learned about Temple Granden in lectures at Griffith Uni Australia (Human Services Maj Disabilities).
I love the tangents he goes on.
7:08 my favorite quote
Haha i checked this time stamp as he did it, sounded like a skipped record
Here in NZ most houses have a chimney and they get used. Many in the UK too where I grew up.
Ya same here in ireland
I’m an adult with autism and some of the stuff he says is similar to how my mind works: if something gets changed, my subconscious believes it to be completely different from the previous state
Were you ever worrying about his power of persuasion, then just listen to this then think, my man.
That time Jordan Peterson, a man you hold in very high regard, used the word 'littler' instead of smaller.
so...?
@@aaronwalterryse4281 so it's funny
This guy should be awarded an Oscar
What's funny is I grew up in a small A-frame style house and we had wood heat so the house I lived in kinda DID look like the "iconic house" drawing.
Love Jordan! Perhaps the most important person of the late 20 teens😀
So much want to see Thomas Sowell and Jordan communicate!!
Chimney with smoke is easy, man. The house isn't a house it's a home. It's warm and it's working, and someone is inside keeping the fire burning.
Or it's one fire and the family are dead.
Modern children have never seen a house with smoke coming out of the chimney, at all.
@@MWilk098 I've seen a chimney with no house.
(It burnt down)
@@MWilk098 Its a pretty direct association for many kids between fire and smoke, and by extension a smoking chimney with a burning fireplace underneath.
Doesn’t matter if children haven’t seen a real house/chimney/smoke combo. They’ve seen it in a million picture books.
With their first drawings they were probably lead by the nose to draw the house that way, with mum and dad stick figures, a peculiar two dimensional cat/dog creature, a yellow sun with radiating lines, clouds, trees like broccoli, etc
And McDonalds has been working for 50 years to get the Golden Arches included in the iconography, haha.
Normally, Dr. Peterson is brilliant and well read on subject matters that he addresses in presentations. Albeit, autism includes an extremely wide spectrum of behavioral tendencies that may or may not include good communication skills and reactions to change in a far less predictable fashion than he presents in this video. I have worked with people on the spectrum of autism for over 15 years and have completed two baskets degrees that are related to working with people with a wide range of behavioral and learning methods; I was a psychotherapist for over eight years and have been a learning specialist for over 15 years.
Dr. Peterson‘s gross overgeneralization would be more than acceptable if this video was made about 15 years ago before we knew far more than what is the case about people on the spectrum of autism. Hopefully, this video reflecting two years ago is inaccurate, and that he actually made this presentation something in the order of 15 or more years ago.
Temple Grandon is one of my favorite people in the world.
Dr. Peterson is correct about her inventing a path for cattle to not see their own shadows and therefore not have anxiety anymore than is necessary before slaughter.
To be fair, this is a 7 minute video. I suspect his views are more nuanced than this.
To be fair please listen to the broad generalizations that he makes about autism and replace his statements about any other sociological group...
People who make such generalizations do not responsibly characterize those with autism and then at a later point with nuances that contradict sweeping generalizations. Dr. Peterson has fallen into a horrible trap of the ego, which is because he is brilliant in men and woman issues, he presumed to be an expert in an area that does not reflect his psychotherapy specialty. Unfortunately, he did something similar before on a presentation regarding climate change; he grossly minimized the significance of it.
Many people with autism are terribly discriminated against by such stereotypes as Dr. Peterson asserts as generally true.
Hopefully Dr. Peterson will stick to what he is superior at, and not pair an accurate statement about Temple Grandon with gross generalizations about autism....
I personally drew smoking chimneys because i thought its a cool addition of detail. I just didn’t know what else to add.
I never drew smoke in the chimney, but I did draw chimneys, and I always draw a square window on the left with a cross in it, and a door to the right with a door handle. And sometimes a circle window in the middle top with a cross in it as well
Peterson is always uncovering/revealing concepts and ideas that were hidden in my mind.
Claire Danes played Grandin in a film.. It was done well I think.
I am neurodivergent and I don't dislike people. As a child I was more indifferent to people, generally. But I did not dislike people. (Of course I dislike bullies. I imagine most people do.) Now I actually like quite a few people, but what I find difficult is knowing who to trust because with many people what you see is not what you get. So I guess I dislike that.
Her book is amazing
Wehat he is talking about with abstractions is called "theory of mind". He understood the concept.
Pretty sure "theory of mind" refers to the capacity of understanding what other people think and feel, ie. empathy. It can also just mean the capability to understand that other people have their own ideas, personalities, motivations etc. which differ from your own, even if you can't know what they specifically are. Understanding concrete, but not abstract concepts is a whole different matter, though autistic people stereotypically struggle with both, theory of mind AND grasping abstract thinking.
I love how he briefly touched on why AI isn’t going to happen, lol.
I’ve said this for years, we don’t do ANYTHING because we’re intelligent, we do things because we’re ANIMALS.
Without simulating all the complex mechanisms that make us want to eat, sleep, fuck, and all the specific ways that manifests in the human animal; you can’t build an artificial intelligence.
There's literally no reason advanced AI need to be even slightly like us to completely overtake us in intelligence
Those things can be simulated. I certainly feel it's possible to emulate a human mind with enough processing power.
@@imzjustplayin : 2025, according to Kurzweil
AI isn't meant to emulate a human its meant to be better in what we are bad at.
It's extremely easy to give the ai goals.
Without goals there’s no perception. That’s fascinating!
I wish the complete lecture was uploaded. I was just beginning to settle into it and the clip ended.