Why Gollum Doesn't age like Bilbo after the Ring | Tolkien Explained
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- Gollum doesn't appear to age after losing the One Ring while Biblo does - or does he?! Today, we dive into the books to answer this very common question!
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#gollum #lordoftherings #tolkien - Zábava
When my dad read LOTR to me as a kid, he described the ring not as making one live longer, but making one die more slowly. This is why bilbo feels thin and stretched. Its not prolonging his life, its stretching out his death
Really interesting interpretation
That’s pretty much what the rings did.
This actually is probably a more apt description.
True. A gnawing discomfort as Mandos urges your soul to come to the halls of the dead.
That actually makes a lot of sense, in Tolkien’s world only Eru, the true divine being, can create life, Sauron’s master Melkor/Morgoth hated this and chose to pervert what life he could to make something of his own, orcs made from elves, but he could only alter, twist a life form already in existence, never truly create new life. So it stands to reason Sauron’s rings can’t give more life either, only prolong death.
Another passage that might be cited is the one when Gollum almost repents. The narrator says that if any had seen him at that moment, they would have seen an ancient Hobbit, frail and weal. He was impossibly old for his kind, but the Ring kept him going.
I think it's because of his diet. Fish are extremely healthy.
Sashimi without wasabi or soy sauce.😔
@@EnerdhilGiven his reaction to Sam's cooking interlude, I think he'd take wasabi as a poisoning attempt.
@@Eloraurora
"It burns our throatses!"😵
Goblinses are full of seed oils though
trans fatses and cholesterols, my Precious! * GOLUM,GOLUM! *
Bilbo is a sedentary creature, especially after going to Rivendell.
Gollum is physically active with a diet of raw fish and the occasional goblin.
The books say he loved long hikes and was out and about for days and weeks, and sometimes took Frodo with him. And they met Elves. That's why Frodo speaks Elvish and is educated about their culture and history.
Bilbo never lost his sense for Adventure and lust for travelling
@@CordeliaWagner1999yeah but was he eating fish and goblins
Even Gollum seems to understand this dimly. When he attacks Frodo and Sam on the slopes of Mt. Doom and Frodo leaves him for Sam to deal with, Tolkien writes that Gollum says, “Don’t kill us,’ he wept. ‘Don’t hurt us with nassty cruel steel! Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We’re lost. And when Precious goes we’ll die, yes, die into the dust.’ He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. ‘Dusst!’ he hissed.” Apart from the psychological toll of having his addiction taken beyond where he can reach it, he seems to understand that his survival only lasts as long as the Ring. He literally can’t live without it, which adds another incentive for him to make a last-ditch effort to get it back from Frodo. Yes, Frodo cursed him to fall into the Cracks of Doom if he touched Frodo again, but if he’s going to die anyway…. And Gollum doesn’t have much concept of unselfishness that would allow him to accept sacrificing himself for the sake of a promise.
Honestly...when you think how fast the decades caught up with Bilbo... dying in the fires of Mount Doom was probably a better way to go, compared to what Gollum would have experienced
I think Eru Illuvitar shoved Gollum at the end.
@Weiyinglou, it could be both.
Rankin bass return of the king did this scene very faithfully with the exact same dialogue
@@meganofsherwood3665
Yes. High speed, time-lapsed death.
I'm envisioning frodo casually dropping the ring into the fire, Gollum standing there and watching. Soon as the ring melts, Gollum just turns into a poof of ash and bone.
*Looks down in sadness*
'Aww nutssss'
*poof*
Yes. A kind of Saruman ending.
“Scheiße, precioussss”
*sad “gollum” noise*
poof
how awful if Gollum turned into a poof :(
@@papalaz4444244
🌬️
I don't agree with the idea that Bilbo hadn't aged significantly in the 17 years following giving up the Ring. He is certainly sleepier and more forgetful when Frodo first sees him in Rivendell - and he admits to feeling old and having given up travelling. That sounds like a much older hobbit than the one at his birthday party. Also, this idea that he wasn't travelling because Gandalf and Elrond told him not to... well, Gandalf only discovered the identity of the Ring a few months prior to this conversation, so it wouldn't make any sense for Gandalf to have warned him about the Enemy before this. I'm guessing that they told him that much later on during his sojourn at Rivendell - and only because he was too old to do much travelling anyway. Indeed, Bilbo is much more sleepy, more forgetful and more sedentary when Frodo meets him on his way back to The Shire, but he had already shown signs of all that at their previous meeting. At this first meeting, the effects of the Ring had been slowly weakening for 17 years, but at the second, the Ring had been destroyed along with most of its influence. But the Ring's destruction had still left wounds on both Bilbo and Frodo's psyches that couldn't be cured in Middle-earth.
As for Gollum, the book in fact says that he did suddenly feel old once he had lost the Ring, but he also felt better - and the fresh air and better food he was getting outside of his mountain lair also improved his general fitness. I don't think the manner in which he received the Ring had anything to do with the less marked effect in terms of aging of being without the Ring. How could it? I don't see any reason why it should. Maybe Bilbo's act of pity towards Gollum made it harder for the Ring to corrupt him and easier for him to give it up - but I don't see why this should also alter the life-preservation powers of the Ring. It's just pure speculation to suggest that it would. It was just that Gollum had had the Ring for far far longer than Bilbo, so its impact upon Golluim's lifespan was much more profound. Bilbo was still within the maximum hobbit lifespan when the Ring was destroyed - but Gollum had had the Ring for at least FOUR hobbit lifespans when he lost it and was more than FIVE TIMES the hobbit life expectancy when it was destroyed.
Listening to you tell the story with all the different voices and drawings makes me go back to the feeling of wonder I had listening to stories as a child.
"Butter scraped over too much bread" is such an excellent example of evocative writing, and is surpassingly beautiful in its simplicity and relatability.
I also believe that Bilbo was less affected because he didn't obsess over the ring as constantly like Gollum did. Picture 2 alcoholics, one that has a few shots scattered throughout the day, while the other is Nicholas Cage from Leaving Las Vegas
The Precious was Gollum's goddess. That was a 24/7 obsession for sure.👍😁
Bilbo gave up the ring willingly. The hunger still fueled gollum.
Willing, is doubtful. He was coerced more than convinced to give the ring up. As Bilbo is shown to constantly crave it still. While it took Boromir's infatuation with the idea of the ring, and Gollum/Smeagol's pitiful affections to turn Frodo to covet the ring at the end.
@@MrEmiosk Chances are Bilbo would have become Gollum 2.0 if Frodo had not taken the ring far from him.
@@silentecho92able you mean Gandalf.
Interesting. I had never given the issue much thought before but your thoughts make a lot of sense. And it fits with Tolkien's overarching belief. Also of note of course that Bilbo after giving up the Ring spent seventeen years, or the bulk of it, in Rivendell, a healthy, open air kind of place, where Gollum spent it lurking in underground lakes among the mountains. The Ring prolonged their lives but the look of them was probably due to the environment.
There are more factors involved in making Gollum look like he did besides lurking in a subterranean lake for 500 years.
(1) He was evil, having killed his best friend.
(2) He was totally under the power of his Precious.
(3) He ate mostly fish and Orcs
(4) He was suffering from schizophrenia
(5) He was tortured by Sauron
(6) He hated the sun and stayed out of its light.
Also Sauron had poured his own power (Maiar) into the forging of the ring. Golem had given into the influence of the ring, and probably wore it often while living under ground amongst the goblins. so he "absorbed" more of it?
@@sectureverothoughtcriminal7734
I doubt Gollum wore his Precious very often. I think only when he was fishing or hunting Orcs.
@@Enerdhil But he was down there a long time
@@sectureverothoughtcriminal7734
Yes 500 years of creepy love songs to his Precious.😣
Well done and thought out. I never questioned Gollum's non-aging before.
My assumption is that he was in possession of the One Ring for so long that he got overloaded with longevity such that even 60 years later he still had some spare years left
Do you mean Bilbo or Gollum?🧐
@@Enerdhil I mean Gollum, Bilbo had a fresh supply of divine power from the ring in those 60 years
Bilbo didn't really age until the ring was destroyed, something they skipped around in the movies.
That's what the video says
@@TheMinskyTerrorist Yes, but this comment doesn't take 10 minutes to read.
@@mariogallao There are also other details in the video. I'm sure you knew that though.
Bilbo does age a bit - he's sleepier, more sedentary and more forgetful when Frodo first encounters him at Rivendell. As though he was older and just wanted to retire there and hang up his walking boots. But he is still not as old as he should be - he only becomes his actual age once the Ring is destroyed.
@mariogallao I agree. These videos, while interesting, could easily but edited in half.
I've never heard this story told so vividly before. Thank you for bringing it to life!
The Ring seems to literally be like a magical corrupting drug. At first it makes the user more powerful and gifted but in time, even if it takes 100's of years, it eventually makes you more and more sickly and slavish until you're a wraith. One of worst parts of the Ring is that power and charm it bestows to the user seems to never become forgotten. Whoever has wielded it can't forget it's power, and they have a small (or very large in the case of Gollum) lust and yearning for it. It's only when it's destroyed does the psychological grip finally leave the Ringbearers.
It wouldn't surprise me if Bilbo felt a huge weight lifted off his spirit at the time of the Ring's destruction, even though there was yet no news that it had been destroyed.
I really love how you use the works of so many artists in your videos! I am delighted not only by the tales you tell, but by the amazing art we get to see along the way!
I’m finally early on one of your releases. I have to say I LOVE your channel I have recommended you to several friends. Thank you for the great content keep it up!!!
This also explains neatly the way the Nazgul were destroyed (in the films, at least) after the One was destroyed. The One was the linchpin holding their existence together (since it controls the lesser rings). I don't even want to _imagine_ what it feels like to be a thousands-year-old lich, then have your phylactery destroyed and all those centuries catch up with you in an instant, yeesh 😱The Witch-king of Angmar had it easy...
I’ve been waiting for this topic to be covered for a long time. Thank you.
Bilbo possessed the ring, but the ring never stopped possessing Gollum
Great point!😁👍
Yeah I think that's a big part of it. Bilbo was never fully corrupted.
I have always assumed neither Bilbo nor Gollum aged significantly after losing possession of the ring because of the hold it still had over both of them, but the film's different interpretation didn't really bother me, because the ring clearly had a much greater hold over Gollum than it ever did over Bilbo.
That much is true granted Gollum had the ring for 500 years. Compared to Bilbos 60 years. With Gollums isolation mix with the ring made the ring be more attached to gollum then Bilbo.
I hadn’t thought that hard about this before. This was interesting and insightful.
Probably because you didn't need to think about it before.😅
Rivendell has the effect of preservation due to Elrond's ring no? When Bilbo is in Rivendell for 17 years couldn't that slow his aging in conjunction with the lingering effects of the one ring?
Why is this not considered
Because gollum was never there
The Ring has powers that extend beyond its proximity. I think just as Sauron held power over rhe Nazgul, who did not wear their Rings. The Ring itself hrld some kind of power of those who bore it, whether in their possession or not. Sauron accessed power frim the Ring because it still existed, so why can't Gollum and Bilbo receive that same power by extension? It seems to me that the easiest explanation to believe is that Gollum and Bilbo and Frodo all lost their "youth" when the Ring was destroyed and their hröar changed to look like their actual age.
I think Rivendale and Lothlorien also became diminished as soon as the Ring was destroyed.
This is the best LotR channel. Love your content, thank you for sharing.
Great analysis with strong logic and consistency, sir
This moc is fantastic, love the idea of single episode projects!
Thanks for that.
Influenced by the films I have to admit my thinking was primarily that Bilbo and Frodo came by the ring without evil, and at least in Bilbo's case gave it up freely. Therefore it held no lasting effect on them. But that's not what the books say at all.
Bilbo didn't physically age until the ring was destroyed and Frodo hadn't possessed it long enough to change markedly after it was gone.*
*Gollum knew this, as can be seen by his comments on Mt Doom. Being so far past the natural lifespan of a Hobbit, no doubt if he hadn't gone in to the fire with the ring he would have crumbled to dust on the spot.
Its no wonder people were so formal with things back then it could be 20, 30, 50 years before you see a friend again LoL
This is good video. God bless you mate❤
Before I watch I will speculate that it is because Smeagol possessed the ring much longer and perhaps used it much more than Bilbo did.
I don't think possessing the One Ring for a long period of time would have any benefit to one's longevity. It makes more sense that Gollum would have come crashing down to a skeletal pile in the same way that Barad-dür came crashing down to a pile of rubble.
Great post!
Damn. It almost makes me glad that Gollum never fulfilled Frodo's hopes by redeeming himself. Frodo would have been so happy for the wretched old Hobbit, only for Gollum to die and turn to dust right after the One was destroyed.
In the case of redemption, I think Eru would have returned Gollum's physical state back to pre-Ring days and maybe his buddy Dëagol would be reembodied too.😁👍
@@Enerdhil That sounds wishful. Has something equivalent ever happened in Middle-Earth before?
@@colinbaldwin313
Gollum never gave us a chance to see what would have happened if he had had 180° change of character. I just think that in such a "what-if," Eru Iluvatar would find a way to make that redemption meaningful.
Maybe the redeemed Gollum wrestles the Ring from Frodo and falls into the fiery lava. He died a hero. 😁👍✝️
Hobbits being, according to Tolkien, a variety of Men, a redeemed Gollum who promptly died when the ring was destroyed would have left the circles of the world, as would the actual Gollum who fell in to the lava. One could speculate that a redeemed version would have found his destination pleasant.
@@joannakeenan3355 I hope that even the unredeemed Gollum winds up in a pleasant enough place, after the misery that was his life.
Love your videos ❤
I was literally just wondering this yesterday
I have always wondered if Bilbo would have lived the extra years that he had the ring
If your ever looking for what if ideas I think a “what if Sauron defeated the last alliance” could be neat! Unless the outcome would be the same if Sauron got the one ring.
Or a “what if the Valar got involved in the war of the ring”
1:16. Wow! That’s a long habit!! Imagine his kick?
Yes, Bilbo looked quite happy, too (9-year-old me), when he launched himself at Frodo.
Unrelated but I still find it funny that two of your top Patreon supporters are named Tom Bombadil and the Mighty Mim
Mîm had a short shelf life.😂
Very interesting insights ✨
Gollum had the ring for 500 years. If bilbo had it for the same amount of time he would have endured the same
Possibly. But Bilbo did not intentionally seek the Ring out. Smeagol killed for it and I can't help but wonder if that played a hand in it. I don't doubt Bilbo might have eventually become this malformed creature, but I wonder if it wouldn't take a lot longer for him.
@@Tahkaullus01 yes i agree. But he almost couldn’t handle himself when Frodo had it at Rivendell. So eventually he may become gollum like. Maybe 750 years later perhaps.
@@Tahkaullus01 That's basically what Gandalf said. Because Bilbo did not acquire the Ring through malicious means, he wasn't affected by it as much.
@@Tahkaullus01
Are you saying longevity gained by malevolence is different from that gained by happenstance?🤔
I am not sure it should make a difference in the length of life, but it would impact the quality of life, me thinks.
This is very similar to a recent TTT Mailbag Monday! Nice to know you're on the same page on this question.
That's funny. haha. Good to know Alan and I are on the same page!
An interesting take which makes a lot of sense. Btw, what is the music in the background? It sounds Shore-like, very elegiac.
your Arwen voice stirs me
Now with the part of Sauron holding the Nazgul Rings, I'm wondering if anyone getting hold of those rings could controll them. or if it indeed has more to do with the link to the One Ring.
I'd like to think that Gollum, just before he was captured by the pool, was starting to find himself, really starting to come around, feel for him 😅
IDK John.... I'm afraid Gollum was beyond redemption... after all he had killed...so I wonder what he was like before he ' found ' The Ring
@@Donathon-qx8kq He wasn't a nice hobbit, his own family kicked him out the family home
@@Chow0012 I know.... kinda what I think also.... he killed his cousin (?).... before he even wore the ring.... makes you wonder just how evil the Ring wraiths were in life... Peace
@@Donathon-qx8kq Maybe it was more from a movie portrayal, see emotions on the screen which I didn't feel across the book, but yes maybe he was beyond many hundreds of years ago, at least he died with his precious 😅
@@JohnSmith-rw2yn honestly.... one could ask for worse
It seems to me that after the last great foe of the elder days was vanquished everyone touched by great Elven magic (except Aragorn and Arwen) had to leave Middle Earth - even Sam, who only held onto the One Ring for less than a day. That's why Sam had to leave for the Blessed Realm.
Sam never had to leave Middle Earth for the Undying Lands. He did it out of love for Frodo and because he had a place on a ship set aside for him. He could have stayed in the Shire.
Samwise didn't have to go, but because he was a Ring-Bearer the Valar offered him a boon to come to Tol Eressa and spend his last days there. He chose to go after his wife passed away.
One would assume Frodo would still be alive then but if not Gandalf and the Elves of the fellowship would be there to greet him.
What does he mean when he says that he's "passed the old Took"
The "Old Took" was Bilbo's maternal grandfather, Gerontius Took, who was famous among hobbits for reaching the age of 130, which was the longest recorded lifespan for a hobbit up to that time. When Bilbo reached the age of 131 shortly before he sailed to Valinor with Frodo, Gandalf, and the others, he "passed" the Old Took's record for longevity.
Age. He had one more birthday than The Old Took.
It seems to me that if Gollum had survived he would have perished immediately like the Nazgul did when the ring was destroyed since it was in his possession for centuries.
Gollum doesn't exactly look like a spring chicken
True. He doesn't have a beak.😜
@@Enerdhil lol
Because he had a part still yet to play
Is it certain the Nazgul did not wear their rings? I always assumed they did because there seemed to be no reason for them not to. That Sauron had gathered the nine rings to himself, and "held" them could be just figuratively speaking, as the Nazgul served him unquestioningly.
Here is Letter #246, on about the 6th page:
"Not wholly. I do not think they (the Ringwraiths) could have attacked him (Frodo) with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by {Sauron, who still through their nine Rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.}"
That last part is very clear that Sauron literally held the Nine Rings of Power. Why else would Tolkien even write those words "which he held," if he didn't physically hold them? That phrase between the parentheses is for clarification and additional information.
@@Enerdhil "held" can also mean "controlled". But I agree that it sounds like he had the rings himself. I wonder why though.
@@jiddro33
Actually, I used to believe the Ringwraiths wore their Nine Rings.
There is a quote by Gandalf at The Council of Elrond where he says, "the Nine [Rings] the Nazgul keep."
Steven Gibbs who used to be known as The Red Book did a fantastic video where he explained that Sauron actually held the Rings. The quote from the Letter is important because that was written by Tolkien after Lord of the Rings was published. Therefore it was Tolkien's last word on that issue.
As for why Sauron had to hold those Rings, that is another question for another video.😅
@@jiddro33
Also if "held" can mean "controlled," why are both words used in proximity to each other and in the same sentence?🧐
@NerdOfTheRings are you going to review the Barad Dur Lego set?
Golem aged like the cracked head down the street lol
What a description
That's what I call the crak hed down the street...Smeagol
If that ain’t the truth. The old lady that lives next door is a crackhead and she’ll never die. Idk how she does it. Super nice lady never had any issues and she keeps to herself and keeps her place clean. Shoutout to Lisa the world’s oldest most functional crackhead.
Yep. In another ten years, Hunter Biden will look like Gollum.
@@bighand1530 he i s kinda right though
What if the rings worked as Sauron had intended? In the end Mairon's demise was predetermined, but I like the approach still.
Thank you for taking us to Middle Earth, Matt ❤
We did, alas, omit three significant bearers of the One Ring:
Sauron, who perished in darkness;
and Isildur, who perished in violence and a repentance come too late... of that latter mortal, we can only hope that he can at last rest in peace.
And finally, Samwise Gamgee, who does also seem to have endured Some lingering effects of the Ring, even after its destruction: far outliving his (considerably younger) wife, Rosie, before travelling into the West... where, we are led to believe, he did get to see his beloved (and quite aged) master again.
I think we can reasonably conclude that while rapid aging definitely came upon Bilbo after the One was destroyed, a peaceful passage beyond the bounds of the world and escape from the toils thereof MAY have still required time and perhaps some balm only to be found in the Undying Lands....
[Oh, and we might also count Tom Bombadil as a Ring-Bearer... he undoubtedly had a difficult time of it... trying to recover from the fits of laughter he suffered whenever the subject of the One Ring was brought up. ;-) ]
Food for thought this one!🤔
I had a friend ask me "why don't the Nazgul speak or communicate? Why or how does Smaug communicate?" I also wrote a dissertation and gave a lecture on the spot!😂
🧝♂️🧝♀️🧙♂️🥔🥓🍻😁
The Nazgul do communicate briefly with those they consider worthy of their breath. Gandalf, some of the Shire hobbits, etc.
I don't think the Nazgul used telepathy to communicate with the Gaffer back when Frodo and his friends were getting ready to leave the Shire. He must have had a speaking voice. Also the Witch King spoke to Ëowyn.
Smaug can speak Westron
Interesting 🤔
@@CalebMay-bf1ci
He also speaks Dragonese.🤪
The destruction of the one ring must have been quite a thing from Bilbo's perspective. If, once the ring was gone, he was experiencing the ageing of years over the space of a few months, he must have felt the effects of age arriving far more rapidly than most individuals do - even if he didn't notice any other clues that the ring was destroyed. (I don't recall of he experienced any feeling of loss or other "psychic"/psychological impression of the ring's destruction.)
Almost immediately, he must have felt the twinges of age creeping upon him much more rapidly than they had done to that point. I guess that would have been bittersweet for him.
I just finished watching the LOTR Extended in theaters…… It was so much fun! 😊
Another great descriptive video Matt thank you.
Makes me wonder just why the dark lord would have put an element of aging on the ring when he created it. It also makes me wonder about all the other magical elements that the 1 ring possessed.
In lotr one is made aware of some of the powers of the 3 but the true full power of the 1 remains somewhat elusive.
Perhaps a video on the exact powers of the rings would be useful.
Did Sauron need to extend his life for example ?
Your explanation would be most enlightening
As Sauron is an Ainur, he had no need to extend his lifespan, as he was already immortal; however, the primary purpose of the Rings of Power was to preserve the realms and powers of their bearers, and the One Ring was no exception to this. As such, the use of a Ring of Power would preserve (and thus prolong) the lifespan of a mortal. However, as the Rings of Power were intended to be used by immortals, such as Sauron (in the case of the One Ring) or the Elves (in the case of the other nineteen Rings), the preservation effect was dangerous to mortals, given that immortals live at once in both the Seen and the Unseen realms. Over time, mortals bearing a Ring of Power would become wraiths, as their physical bodies fade and wither away, with their souls becoming bound to the Ring they bore. Hobbits and Dwarves would not fade however, due to their nature; instead, with Dwarves it simply amplified their greed and anger, often causing great calamity and ruin in the process - and Hobbits, who are unconcerned with the affirs of the wider world, just seem to live longer. However, Hobbits who bear a Ring of Power seem to become incredibly fixated upon it (moreso than other mortals), as well as developing seperation anxiety and paranoid tendiencies.
I've summarised it here, however there is a whole series of videos on the powers of the Rings, which goes into more detail:
Three Rings for the Elven Kings under the Sky: czcams.com/video/CH_hwIqeVJ0/video.html
Seven for the Dwarf Lords, in their Halls of Stone: czcams.com/video/g0LzuZb_FY8/video.html
Nine for Mortal Men, Doomed to Die: czcams.com/video/-JQK9GjcrW4/video.html
One for the Dark Lord, on His Dark Throne, in the land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie: czcams.com/video/kxMO8xTLeoc/video.html
Great analysis in this one especially. And further proof go to the books not the movies for the full facts!
Talking about the movie adaptation: It is said that the ring has consumed gollum. He cannot live with or without it. In a way it has become a part of him, so it makes sense that it would grant gollum unnatural long life as long as the ring exists in the world (so even if it is not close to gollum. Besides, gollum doesn't really wear the ring, but he has it close and not even on him).
Bilbo and Frodo were not yet consumed by the ring (well maybe Frodo at the very end?) so to me it makes sense that they would go on and age again after "willingly" passing the ring on to others. (the ring ultimately hasn;t been able to break their free will).
hallo sir...
can you talk about Battle of the Pelennor Fields........
Don’t mind me; i’m only getting my thoughts together before i watch the video:
Isn’t Gollum already aged? And in the books, there were many more years between Bilbo’s departure and Frodo arriving in Rivendell.
Sounds a lot like addiction. If you don't willing you usually last without it. If forced to give it up you constantly think about. Or go back to it.
I feel like Bilbo had a tragic story. He just wanted to see the world and yet got pulled in to a war between god like beings which damaged his soul permanently
Being unable to die and leave middle earth is a curse.
You miss the obvious arguement -- Sauron, who is destroyed with the destruction of the ring, so must benefit from the rings continued existance (its his power) in some way, even if its not in his ownership. Though if its his power, why did sauron put it in an object... mmh, and if its extra power, why did the destruction of the ring effect him so, unless the ring is more of a drug to which those who possess it are effected....
I don't know about not aging but Smeagol looked way beyond aged to me 😂
Can anyone pretty please tell me who did the painting of Frodo and Mithrandir in the wagon in Hobbiton ??? I checked the names in the description but I couldn't seem to find that particular painting 😢
Bilbo smoked weed a couple of years, then went to rehab followed by the best healers of middle earth.
Gollum has been a crackhead for all his life, then went in forced withdrawal for a couple of months
The real question is how did Gollum live for hundreds of years, using the ring frequently (and mostly for Evil purposes) then not become a Wraith and become permanently invisible and lost to the shadow world? Read HOME vol. VI Return of the Shadow as this was Tolkien's very own explanation of the effects a Ring of Power has on the wearer. Granted these were from his first drafts of a "sequel to The Hobbit" penned in 1938, but isn't that exactly what happened to the wicked Men who had the Nine and became the Ring-Wraiths.
I have often thought about Gollum's seeming immunity to the Ring's power in this respect that after nearly 500 years his corporal body is intact (tho' worse for wear) when he should have become a Wraith himself.
Are you referring to this passage in The Return of the Shadow, Of Gollum and the Ring?:
'Still, Gollum must have been, or be, very much older than the oldest Hobbit that ever lived in field or burrow, ' said Bingo.
"That was the Ring,' said Gandalf. 'Of course it is a poor sort of long life that the Ring gives, a kind of stretched life rather than a continued growing - a sort of thinning and thinning. Frighteningly wearisome, Bingo, in fact finally tormenting. Even Gollum came at last to feel it, to feel he could not bear it, and to understand dimly the cause of the torment....."
In LOTR, Gandalf muses on this and notes that hobbits have a different constitution to men
@@Enerdhil No, that is not the same passage.
@@fueledbylove
I guess I'll keep looking.😅
@@Enerdhil Just wanted to say in Return Of The Shadow Chris explains in those early drafts of FR his Dad was making repeated revisions of his story. But JRR always was striving to eliminate inconsistencies in his work. Love Chris' efforts but the additional information that he has dug up also can be an "overload" of sorts, so what I was picking up is that in the first mentions of the power of the Rings, men or Hobbits were equally vulnerable to being overwhelmed and possessed utterly, swallowed up into the Wraith-world - AND especially so if the victim was already of an evil nature.
Those writing are my basis for questioning why Smeagol - Gollum could go so long and not be consumed, he killed to get the Ring and was wholly wicked.
I am not losing any sleep over this, I guess he changed his mind somewhere that Hobbits were more resistant to the lure of the Ring than Men. Whew,. long post.
If I remember correctly: the Nazgul still have claim over their rings (and vice versa), but possibly the rings being physically held by Sauron.
When being stated by Tolkien that Sauron held the Nine, that can be understood in two ways: 1) He held them physically, they were gathered to Sauron. 2) Sauron held the Rings under his control through his will. The Nazgûl still wore them, but the Rings were controlled by Sauron.
It was usually my interpretation that they still wore them... thought thinking about that more now, they were not found (or even searched for) after the wraiths were discorporated / unhorsed at the Ford of Bruinen, nor after the Witch-King was slain by Eowyn & Merry on the Fields of Gondor. In retrospect, it seems odd that Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn and others would have neglected the Nine Rings' whereabouts unless they were fairly sure they were under Sauron's physical control. They care about the locations and activities of the Nine Riders, but not their Nine Rings - even when they have reason to guess they might be separated...
@@usotsuki5 There is a subtle difference in mastering/dominating, claiming ownership and just wearing a ring of power.
In my interpretation, Sauron mastered/dominated the 9 rings and probably physically held the 9 (by reasoning of absense of mentioning after the Witch-king died), but the Nazgul definitely in some form were still the owners of their rings.
Just like Frodo, throughout his journey he held the ring but never claimed the ring until Mount Doom and clearly he never mastered the ring. Similarly Isildur also held the ring, but was unable to bend the ring to his will.
At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf said that the Nazgûl "kept" the Nine Rings, ("the Nine the Nazgûl keep") which led me to always interpret the meaning of Sauron "holding" the Nine Rings as being option 2, that they still wore their rings. As far as individuals searching for the rings after the Nazgûl were defeated, I would assume that those searching for signs of them after they were overwhelmed by the magic of the Ford of Bruinen would also have searched for the rings, but not found any due to the fact that the Nazgûl themselves were not slain, only deprived of their steeds and the cloaks they wore to make themselves visible in the physical world. Thus they would still have carried their rings with them as they slowly made their way back to Mordor from the ford. In the case of the Witch King, I expect that his ring was indeed left behind on the battlefield with his empty armor after he was slain by Eowyn. In that instance, the reason no mention was made of a search for and possible recovery of his ring was due to the fact that only a handful of individuals would have known about his ring and these individuals (Gandalf, Aragorn and the other members of the Fellowship who were present in Minas Tirith at the time) had far more pressing matters to attend to, such as preparing to march out and attack the Black Gate to draw Sauron's attention away from Mt. Doom. I do think it could make for an interesting fanfiction if some random Rohirric or Gondorian soldier found the Witch King's ring of power. It would have quickly lost its power, though, as the Ring was destroyed only a few days later.
@@DamonNomad82 But given that Gandalf even calls the lesser rings dangerous for mortals, he definitely would be wary/aware if Witch King's ring was on the battleground next to King Théoden and a gigantic Hell Hawk.
Come on! Tolkien never minced words. He was a contributor to the Oxford Dictionary. He put a lot of thought into what he wrote and that includes his essays and Letters. Sauron absolutely had possession of all of the nine Rings of Power that controlled the Nazgul.
I like the spiritual idea; that because Bilbo was able to give the Ring up willingly, it's effects on him lessened. But in Gollum's mind the Ring was always his
Sam also carried the ring bearer, he should also count. He is as worthy as an elevator, an elevator that carries a great & mighty hammer.
Before I watch this, I will guess that Bilbo only aged after the Ring was destroyed.
Gollum’s raw fish-based diet provides both high protein and omega-3 fatty acids. This explains his long lifespan, long health-span and perfect skin complexion!
I believe the main difference between Bilbo and Gollum is that Bilbo gave up the Ring willingly. He severed that connection, but Gollum... never let go. Smeagol still possessed it in his heart.
This may be a bit outside your wheelhouse, but I'd kinda like to see a video on how Tolkien's legendarium influenced modern fantasy, D&D in particular.
In fact, the Tolkien estate sued its creators because some of its monsters and concepts were ripped straight from the legendarium.
Having watched the movies before I read the book. When Bilbo disappeared at his birthday, I thought that's how Hobbits died lol.
What if urwen daughter of hurin and brother of Turin survived her sickness
The thing I've always wondered about Gollum is why he never put the ring on? At least in the movies he never did.
He knows the wraiths and other dark creatures will sense him if he does it
That could be it, but frodo knew the consequences of putting on the ring but he still could not resist the precious.
@@royalecrafts6252in the hobbit, the wraiths weren’t abroad, so this wouldn’t have been a problem.
@@Eagle-eye-pie Thank you! I'm not a LOTR expert but maybe that's why the ring affected Gollum differently. Both Bilbo and Frodo both actively used the ring as opposed to Gollum.
It still bugs me that sailing to the West only seems to bring elves to Tol Eressea and not all the way to Valinor. A line in Unfinished Tales, Galadriel rejects the pardon and says "Why should I live in Eressea, one who once called Valinor home". It just doesn't seem like they shouldn't have just as much right to go anywhere in Aman they want.
Coincidentally I was reading FOTR last night, specifically the chapters The Council of Elrond through A Journey Through the Dark, and I took note of the fact that Bilbo in Rivendell before Frodo’s departure was described in such a way that one would reasonably assume that he appeared relatively young, with him writing and reciting poetry and everything, and his apparent willingness to be ringbearer again to take the ring to Mt.Doom, if no one else was willing. When he gave Sting and his mithril shirt to Frodo he didn’t say “I’m too old to use these anymore” instead it was more that Frodo would likely need them more than he would. Not the comment of someone who felt old and decrepit.
I'm not sure i agree with everything you say. If possession of the ring pauses ageing -maybe transferring the degeneration into more wraith-ness (for want of a better word), then I think it is possible for ageing to resume once possession is lost. If Bilbo effectivity stopped ageing at 33, the 17 years after he gave up the ring would make him the equivalent of about 50 - still sprightly for a hobbit. Bilbo calls himself old and uses the phrase "tottering about" a phrase which, in England at least, is used for the movement of older people. Frodo catches him sleeping, although Bilbo denies this, again something older people do, even down to refuting it. The first time I read it, and always since, I've seen Bilbo as older. The case for Gollum is harder to justify though, if we assume he's younger (is there an estimate of his age?) say 20 then he'll be about the equivalent of 90 at the cracks of doom. Old, but again hobbits live longer. He is described as wiry I have seen old wiry men (particularly those who have hard physical lifestyles and avoid injury), who still have considerable strength into old age. It's possible that part of the effects is that diseases and injuries less affect the wearer, reducing additional ageing effects. I do agree that destroying the ring largely removes any benefit that had been accumulated leading to rapid ageing.
Question/video idea:
In RotK (extended) Saruman accuses Gandalf of seeking the crowns of the seven kings… I was wondering, who are the seven kings/crowns Saruman is referring to??
Maybe the 7 dwarf kings who each got a ring? I know those rings still held great power, it’s possible he was referring to them.
Plot twist: He went to the beach that makes you old.
👍🏻👍🏻
Could it not be that, like Sauron, the bearer’s spirit would be held in the ring and, as long as it remains, so would they?
Certainly in the books, the transition from young Smeagol to old Gollum entailed a lot of aging. The movies dialed this back, making young Smeagol look a lot more than Gollum than I think Tolkien intended. Smeagol was supposed to be very hobbit-like.
I never got the "swift sunrise" part, isn't Valimar more to the West, thus related to the twilight?
Valinor is on a flat Arda though, so the curvature of the globe doesn't affect its' sunrise
I think the fact he was in the presence of the ring for hundreds of years is the simple reason.
The key here is how they acquired the ring- Gollum by killing, Bilbo by mercy and pity.
What if the Three Houses of the Edain staid built there Nieuw kingdom in Eriador instead of numénor and the valar didn't built it
can you do a bolg video
Wait. I thought when Bilbo and Frodo went WEST, they live there forever, becoming immortals (As long as they stayed there). Is that not the case?