Calvinism Debate: Steve Gregg vs James White, Part 1
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- čas přidán 7. 12. 2023
- Day 1 of a radio debate between James White, the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries (www.aomin.org) and Steve Gregg, bible teacher and radio host at The Narrow Path (thenarrowpath.com).
White's bio from A&O: "James White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. He is Professor of Church History and Apologetics at Grace Bible Theological Seminary, and has taught Greek, Hebrew, Systematic Theology, Textual Criticism, Church History and various topics in the field of apologetics for numerous other schools. He has authored or contributed to more than twenty four books, including The King James Only Controversy, The Forgotten Trinity, The Potter’s Freedom, The God Who Justifies and What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Qur’an. He is an accomplished debater, having engaged in more than one hundred eighty moderated, public debates with leading proponents of Roman Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Mormonism, as well as critics such as Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, and John Shelby Spong. Before travel restrictions James debated in such locations as London, Sydney, as well as in mosques in Toronto and South Africa. He is a Pastor/Elder of Apologia Church in Arizona. He has been married to Kelli for more than forty years, and has two children, and five living grandchildren."
#calvinism #sovereignty #god #salvation #arminianism #stevegregg #jameswhite #debate #debates #theology #christianity #christian #church #biblestudy #bible #discussion #reformed #calvinist #johncalvin #saintaugustine #choice #freewill #fatalist #determinism
Thank you for cleaning up the audio on this. I listened to the original debate on am radio back in the day.
But here we all are… discussing the things of God. Don’t we all love it!! Blessings to all the brethren!!
I've been waiting for this!
Both of these men are a gift from God. I love Steve Gregg for his eschatology and I love James White for his teaching on predestination and election! Thank you for posting this!
They both have the same eschatology. Also you need to realize how wrong you are on Calvinism.
@@jasonbourne5142 You are quite wrong. Steve Gregg is Amillennial and James White is Postmillennial. And I am not wrong on what the Bible teaches of the doctrine of grace. You really must be a better student of the word of God.
@@SpiritualJewbyFaithinJesus78 both are idiots. grace means free. compelled is not free.
I enjoyed this. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Love and appreciate the efforts of both gentlemen. Gregg is an awesome teacher who is kind of a sleeper, in my opinion. The traffic on his online sources is disproportionately low compared to many/most other popular online ministries. I've learned a great deal from White, as well. I go to a small church and was surprised last year to look over and see him sitting not far away. Then he got up and gave a talk. Our pastor hadn't mentioned this at all and was something of a surprise to see this guy I'm so familiar with sitting right there. I'm inclined to agree with Gregg on this, though. When I look at the relational language used so frequently throughout Scripture...either in terms of marriage or in the parent/child relationship...I am compelled to then reflect on the relevant principles in my own marriage and own experiences as both a child and a parent. The whole of Scripture makes more sense to me in this light. With the exception of hyper-Calvinism, I think we can find a lot of common ground...and certainly don't see anything to divide the body over. Ultimately, every position runs up against brute facts and the limitations of the creatures knowledge/understanding.
one of the reason why Steve online traffic maybe slow is the fact he is not a Christian-Zionist
most western Christians worship the anti-Christ nation so called Israel Steve teaches the plain scriptures of the new testament which is fulfilled in Christ Jesus.
Such brotherly discussions are helpful to the body of Christ and direct us to what the Scriptures say and what they mean. I tend to support Dr. Whiter's position, but we all need to get back to the Scriptures and seek to understand them in a historical, grammatical, and literary way. I find such debates helpful. Thank you to both brothers. SDG!
Amen and Soli Deo Gloria indeed!
Question: Can God learn?
Answer: No.
Therefore, God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved.
There is one thing that God cannot do: stop being God.
Steve's series on Calvinism, called "God's Sovereignty and Man's Salvation" czcams.com/play/PLtzt3JhaK2U5h6pFtg8f2ZSPJVm3DgDvV.html&si=tXT79hqkuXYHWhpw where he looks at all the arguments for both sides, and even spends a lecture defending Calvinism...before he refutes them in the next lecture.
Steve's notes from an earlier version of this series: www.matthew713.com/notes/files/crombie_sovereignty.pdf (earlier series is here: czcams.com/video/qAgnP26M07o/video.html)
My respects to both gentleman.
Even as much as I have admired James white in debating other faiths, this one was not very convincing. Steve Gregg really laid it out clearly and convincingly.
Thank you for the dialog!
One side clearly pointed to scripture and what God has spoken while the other leaned on man’s understanding.
@@jp22344
Yes it’s a common tactic James use’s, proof texts loaded with Augustinian philosophies.
@@markshanehPlease show specific evidence of your assertions.
Uh…what? Lol
@@markshanehthat’s a strange way of saying you don’t have any idea of what you’re talking about.
Day 2: czcams.com/video/xfvFwZnQ2Vw/video.html will be available momentarily.
I have not been trained in theology. I have studied and talked about (debated?) many things over decades. My study has led me to accept Calvinism.
First time listening to you, Steve, and really enjoying it! 🙌🏻✝️❤️
Welcome aboard!
Hi, my name is Jason and I run this channel. I'm glad you've found Steve's teaching to be a blessing, as have I.
On my channel page (www.youtube.com/@stevegreggvideos), you'll have hundreds of topical and verse-by-verse teachings. My friend Tim also runs a channel featuring Steve Gregg (www.youtube.com/@thenarrowpath.com). Steve supplies with most of the videos.
Steve Gregg has many more free MP3 teachings and a daily call-in radio program called The Narrow Path at thenarrowpath.com/. You may find ways to contact Steve there, and he also participates in the Facebook group, "Steve Gregg - The Narrow Path (Facebook group ( facebook.com/groups/stevegreggtnp/ ).
If you have questions, you can search all the calls Steve has taken for years at www.matthew713.com/, where you'll also find more for many of his lectures.
Lastly, many of Steve's lectures are transcribed at opentheo.org/steve-gregg.
All of this is free and done organically by volunteers as a service to the body of Christ.
I am save by grace alone i hope everyone understand what this means.
No question about that. At the same time salvation is conditional.
Saved by grace THROUGH faith. God set the terms by which He will bestow His grace, not us. The terms are repent and believe.
Repenting and believing doesnt save anyone, those are but the terms. It is still God by His grace that chose to give eternal life to all who believe.
That is one of the calvinist's many misconceptions.That faith saves you, and since faith saves it must therefore come from God otherwise man has something to boast about.
Sounds logical, but it's based on a false premise.
How do non Calvinist deal with these verses?
Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
There is no “yeah but…” in these verses, nothing but grace. Not grace plus something else, not grace but something else, not conditional grace, etc….just grace alone through faith in Christ alone, the faith is not a condition or a work done by humans…this faith is a free gift from God. Any works being added can only be the works done by God, otherwise there is no longer grace. Salvation can not be both by faith alone and also conditional by works…it’s one or the other. Either God is completely sovereign over His Salvation or He needs man’s cooperation to achieve His plan of redemption. I think most if not all Christians agree, God doesn’t need or require anything from man to accomplish His will. He could cause the rocks to worship Him if He willed it. There’s no reason to add anything to this amazing grace, no reason except for pride, arrogance, and ego. Repent and turn from your wicked ways, your works based salvation. Even 1% of the work taken away from God is offensive and insulting to Him. Repent and trust in Jesus alone, 100% His finished work on the cross is the only way to salvation.
Spiritually dead men do not cooperate with grace. unless regeneration takes place first there is no possibility of faith.
It takes the power of divine intervention to save spiritually dead men.
Where does the Bible say that?
@@TrueLifeAdventures
It doesn’t, as I suspect you already know.
@@TheAhull15 Exactly!👍
Thank you and may God Bless your efforts Steve.
Gregg doesn’t exegete any scripture at all. That should tell an honest listener all they need to know.
Scripture is easy enough to understand on its own. White just keeps reading things into the text that aren't there and by starting with Calvinism he unsurprisingly ends up at Calvinism.
Actually, Steve uses Scripture to interpret Scripture, which is the best and proper hermeneutic. People like White want to get into the weeds so deep that you can make it say almost anything. He does so much gaslighting that only a fan boy would deny such.
As an silicone valley software engineer and a Christian, I can assure you Dr White doesn't understand two facts:
hardening does not put new configuration in, it simply doesn't allow existing configuration to be changed further.
You intended... I intended != I intended you to do... I intended myself to do otherwise
Good job, gentlemen.
As usual in Armenian be Calvinism debates. Former uses human philosophy vs former us the word of God. If I have seen once I have seen it a thousand times. Context vs human desire
Your comment is unclear. You use "former" twice...
I cropped myself out of both photos used above, that I had taken when each of these gentlemen spoke at churches in my area. Dr. White has has done a masterful job debating with atheists, muslims, jehovah's witnesses, mormons, king james onlyists, gay theologians, roman catholics, the likes of Bart Ehrman, etc., where I very much agree with him. There's great videos of him witnessing to mormons and others and appreciate how he responds to many cultural and social issues. But this is one area where I very much disagree with him. ~ Jason
What dates were these recorded?
EDIT: The dates for the 5 days are April 3, 4, 7, 8, and 9, 2008, according to the Wesleyan Arminian Wordpress blog.
Can or will JesusChrist EVER,,,, UN,,, redeem his own and ABORT THEM?
From 33:15 thru 47:00 Excellent response
I love how much Dr. White uses Bible. Sure he reaches a little but its noticable how much more Scripture James White uses. God's Word is truth and even in debates. I wish all of his opponents did the same.
The way that he uses the Bible is often to read a Bible verse as if that proves his position, when there are alternative ways of understanding the supposed prooftexts. Effective perhaps when someone presupposes Calvinism, not so much when it isn't presupposed.
When it isn't presupposed it's more like... "Ok, you read something that doesn't contradict my position at all, because these x y or z reasons"
"why does he believe? Maybe any number of reasons"
no.
One reason. You must be born again
Amen bro. The Arminians put belief before the new birth, which is totally backward. New birth is first, then faith is enabled and given by God.
John 6:44 LSB
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 LSB
And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” - John 12:32
Steve Gregg responds to a Calvinist caller asking about John 6:44 www.matthew713.com/petersen/call/2018031205
@@SteveGreggVideos
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” - John 12:32"
In this passage 'everyone' is not in the Bible; it just says 'all'.
@@tomthumb3762 Yes, rather than all men, Jesus meant all chipmunks.
@@SteveGreggVideosevery kind of.
Is this a recent debate or the same one from like 10 years ago?
I can speak for myself. While I'm not a Calvinist (because i dont exactly know what it ALL means, as i have never read his writings), I know for sure God had to predestinate me, and bring me to salvific faith because i wasn't going to believe.
But that's just me.
It's not just you. It's all who come to saving faith. If He hasn't predestined us, we will never believe. Amen ❤
GOD predestined all to be saved, you simply surrender to his calling thats the point.
@@BlessedFavouredHands That is universalism not the Biblical doctrine of predestination. If God predestined all to be saved they why are all not saved? Why do so many reject Christ and go to hell?
@@SavedByTheBloodOfChrist551that's actually not universalism!
@@rerichoj8712 It absolutely is. If you say God predestines all to be saved, that's exactly what universalism is. If you think my definition is not universalism then please explain what you think it is.
There is absolutely no discernable difference between the theology Calvinism and atheistic naturalism.
Both assert we have no free will and simply act according to forces beyond our control.
Interestingly Jesus stated:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
How much examination have you done in area of Reformed Theology? You comment on the surface appears very dishonest and very little understanding of Reformed Theology.
@@jp22344
Wow, that is a very dishonest assessment and clearly heavily biased.
@@sparkyy0007 🤣👍
@@sparkyy0007And yet you did not answer the question.
@@jp22344
Yours wasn't a question, it was just an ad hominem attack fallacy.
One also doesn't need extensive training in Islamic theology to know it's false.
Calvinism is a false doctrine for the reason posted in the OP, and there are many more.
Address that argument if you can, but ad hom attacks aren't arguments my friend.
Thanks Steve! I think you have the stronger position tbh.
None seek after God is in scripture, all are rebellious to God is in scripture, we are all children of wrath is taught in scripture, we all have a dead stone heart is taught in scripture. Now if none seek after God then what makes them seek Him? God draws them and Jn 6:44-45 teach that those drawn are taught by God and everyone taught by God come to Him so, in this case which is in the word of God, who is in hell?
24:12
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first COMMANDMENT. Mark 12:30 KJV
@@KeepingWatch95 I'm not sure if you'll find a Christian who disagrees that this is God's doctrine.
@@KeepingWatch95 Do you have point in posting these verses?
Of course I understand his point. How is that relevant to the discussion?@@KeepingWatch95
White doesn’t seem to believe that God allows events without being the author of all such things, but God cannot even look upon sin, as Scripture says, let alone be the instigator of sin. Yes, he’s sovereign over all, is aware of all that goes on in this world, and can orchestrate events according to his plan, but he doesn’t micromanage us. That’s why we are responsible for our own sin! He stands with arms open, waiting for us to come to him for life, and forgiveness, like the Prodigal Son story shows us.White just reiterates his proof texts, and never offers a response appropriately to other texts that seem to refute his argument. It’s like two ships, passing in the night, when someone tries to debate Dr. White.
How much research of both positions have you done? What books have you studied?
Do you assume they have done no research because of their conclusions or is this a genuine question?
@@jameschappell-ih4cw nah he keeps pasting the same thing over and over to anyone he disagrees with
Again proof of the straw man, attach the man instead of addressing the scripture. God can do anything He wants, He wants free people to freely love Him, in my understanding.
@@NLASMINISTRY lol thats not what strawman argument means
Default position means not biblically informed
No, it means you believe what the Bible plainly teaches throughout thousands of pages, not what a thousand 6 in an ivory tower says you should believe.
I couldn't care less about the term "Calvinist" or the acronym TULIP, but predestination is clearly shown in many verses in scripture, I'm not willing to deny any scripture because I don't fully comprehend God and his grand plan.
Very wise reply. We don't have to understand everything, just believe what God has said. So often people try to figure out God's ways, and when they can't, they just say well God must not have meant what it says in the Bible. Or they just change it to say the exact opposite.
True, but vague .Who are predestined in the context of the scripture and what does the word predestination mean within the context of the scripture?
@@atyt11 The ones who are God's elect are predestined to salvation. The ones that the Father has given to the Son are the ones predestined to salvation. John 6:37-39
I don't know anyone who denies predestination is not Biblical. I know plenty (and I am one) who believe people aren't individually elected to salvation from the beginning of time. I do believe people who put their faith in Christ are "predestined" to go to Heaven. The destination is set.
@@SpiritualJewbyFaithinJesus78 again I don't think anyone should or would refute this. Who the elect are, and how they "become elect" or however you want to say it is likely the point of contention.
One side believes God has chosen to save certain individuals, others believe God has chosen to save individuals who put their faith in Christ.
Thank you for your clear presentation, Steve! I am still not convinced of your position because I don’t think your Biblical case is strong enough, but your clarity is a breath of fresh air in this particular debate topic.
They are both good and godly men, but I have to go with James White on this after over 30 years of studying the Word of God. I love to listen to Steve Gregg on other topics, especially eschatology.
@@SpiritualJewbyFaithinJesus78 I will stay with the Bible, any ism(Calvinist armanism)that's there stay away from them.
@@Joe-xg1yt I'm not crazy about the "isms" either but it's one way to categorize. I just prefer to say something is Scriptural or non-Scriptural. Labels are helpful up to a point though.
@@SpiritualJewbyFaithinJesus78 , I agree my friend but as for me, one can label me as follower of the way.
@@Joe-xg1yt Joe, is the way Mennonite?
Steve did a great job! His arguments were compelling and the other guy didn’t really address the issues.
Historically, Steve has said that certain people or denominations have their interpretations of Scripture becuase they come to the Biblical text with the lens of their denomination. Therefore, they are only willing to, and able to, see Scripture for what they want it to say and cannot fathom what it actually says or could say otherwise. Which is very true of so many. I think we see this clearly already in Dr. James White’s, and other Calvinists’, Biblical examples and their interpretations of them. It is such a strange thing to me how one person can read a verse and see its meaning so drastically different than another. Yet the Bible, in any verse, only says one thing. Looking forward to the entirety of this debate. Thank you, Steve. And also James.
In my case I was saved in an Arminian type of fundamental Baptist church and didn't know anything about so called "Calvinism". I was there for four years until the Lord providentially moved me to a Presbyterian church. For the first time I heard the doctrines of grace but still didn't quite understand. So I began to study, deep dive if you will. The Lord showed me what election and predestination actually mean. So I guess that after that I became a "Calvinist", even though I do not like that label at all. I hate that the body of Christ has to be so divided over this issue, but I do believe that most of us are defending what we believe God is saying/doing in the work of redemption, and at least for me, I will continue to defend God's sovereignty in salvation - it is His work and His work alone.
@@SpiritualJewbyFaithinJesus78 Though I can’t agree with, excuse the label, Calvinism, I thank God that, as many are, are saved having come to believe in the Person, knowledge and hope of Jesus Christ. And I agree with you that it is a shame that the body divides itself over these secondary issues. Which is why I chose not to debate doctrine publicly and scarcely in private unless I see a brother or sister’s views will cause them to stumble in some way. Unity in the Body/Spirit was such a key principle that the Apostle Paul so fervently taught, and that even Christ taught “by this the world will know you are my disciples, if you love one another” and prayed for in John 17 - that “they would be one.” How divided the Body has become has hurt our witness to the world. It is a shame, but such is that nature of sinners. Even those saved by grace. God bless you, brother.
Calvin's view flies in the face of LOVE! Love is a free will gift, to make someone love you is not love at all Dr. White
It's not calvin's view it's biblical doctrine. And god is not subjecting himself to your definition of love. You and I drink sin like water and have desperately wicked hearts. Have you EVER read your Bible?
God's thoughts and ways are higher than our ways.
@@dennis87885 Not these truths!!! These are plain, clear, emphasized in Scripture and only men who are carnal and unregenerate Are intellectually dishonest about these clear scriptures.
ARMINIANISM IS ANOTHER JESUS!!!
@SoundDoctrineToday I agree my friend.
@@dennis87885 What do you agree with?
This is a bizarre debate. Steve doesn’t use standard method of exegesis and hermeneutics. He just makes flat statements and to engage in the same level Dr. White is not using his masterful ability to use exegesis, knowledge in original language and tools of hermeneutics. As a result this is neither a scholarly debate nor a layman term debate between two believers. The method of engagement and its discordance is creating a fog over the substance of debate itself.
So good Steve!
Is this a recent debate or the one from years ago ?
2015
Free will is such an idol to so many people. And they get so angry with the idea of their idol being threatened that they’ll do anything, including twisting God’s word, to uphold their idol
Well Matt the early church was believing themselves and teaching to new believers idolatry. A new church built on an idol? There are excellent materials that examines free will in the early church. BOTH positions cannot hold TRUE.
@@lp4934 I didn’t realize you were around 2000 years ago. I’m also not talking about people who lived 2000 years ago. I’m talking about people today, who elevate the will of man above the purposes of God. And if you think the early church didn’t have serious issues, you haven’t read Paul’s letters. They also didn’t have the best theology. So I wouldn’t exactly brag about sharing their soteriological views.
@@matt_h_27 Lol I was not I can confirm that. My simple point was what did the early church teach ? I am not asking to win an argument nor convince you in fact the only thing I care about is the truth. What is the truth? Did the early church teach free will or did they teach non free will (to simplify)?
I have noticed that too. Freewillism is the default Arminian position of those who do not understand the nature of fallen man - total depravity. I myself was a "freewiller" until the Lord showed me from His word that I had nothing to do with my salvation, and that it was ALL of grace because He chose me before the foundation of the world. AMEN and happy new year to all.
@@SpiritualJewbyFaithinJesus78 Amen, all of His grace because of His sovereign choice to save us! Soli Deo Gloria!
Shall the king of heaven and earth not have His way?
Every non-Calvinist Christian I know believes that God gets His way.
Human will is more important than anything else
God's will is definitely not dependent on the will of any man. Psalm 135:5, 6 "For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps." AMEN
@@gerardgmz Man has always wanted to be God, that's for sure.
God's way is for humans to choose to love and follow him. He doesn't force them to be regenerated. He doesn't make them believe and trust and love because programmed love is not love. In order for true love and faithfulness to be possible, there has to be a choice between love and hate, good and evil, obedience and rebellion. Though obviously many resist his will and rebel against him, God gets glory and loving eternal relationship with billions of his creations. So yes, the King of heaven and earth does get his way.
When did this debate take place?
I was wondering the same thing
@@veritas2145think it was around 8 years ago!
2015
“When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying [praising and giving thanks for] the word of the Lord; and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].”
Acts 13:48 AMP
I've got the feeling that if Paul were here today, these men would debate the scriptures with him.
So Mr. White, God can do whatever He pleases yet according to you He can't give man free will?
So we are saved by our decision. Great is man who makes great decision then.
Man should make great decision, it is the test of man. But we are saved by Jesus through Gods grace, just as Abraham had faith and it was counted toward him as righteousness, even though Abraham had no knowledge of Jesus as far as we know. Is there any indication in Scripture that Abraham was dragged to faith?
@@tedbastwock3810dragged to faith?
@@bucky91361 Yes, thats the terminology of the Calvinists.
@@tedbastwock3810 no, sorry, that's not what a Calvinist believes. Would you like to hear what we believe about that?
@@bucky91361That absolutely is the Calvinist doctrine.
Man is born dead in sin but not a dead sinner. To say one is dead to sin doesn't mean he has no potential to recognise his fallen nature. Growing up in Zimbabwe as a child taught me that something was not right in me and my position with God. I had the conviction from childhood that I was a sinner needing salvation and hence on the 22nd of September 1984 knelt down as a drunkard and confessed my sins. I was forgiven and have never turned back .
My point being that before the 22nd of September 1984 I had regular convictions about my condition of sin. I knew I was a sinner and I always had this desire and expectation of repenting one day. So to say a sinner doesn't have the ability and power to realise their fallen condition cannot be applied in my life.
After getting drunk ( smoking weed and ordinary cigarettes ) I would get conviction about my fallen state .
So I don't believe that human beings cannot seek God in their fallen nature. As a drunkard I always knew it was not right and led to hell.
It was a happy day 22nd September 1984 repenting at 9 pm no preacher no bible no knowledge of ANY 1 bible verse.
My prayer was God forgive I am a sinner ....
That was it ...
This is my testimony ....
Dear Mr White. In giving mankind the right and ability to exercise FREE WILL is within God's will and purpose to establish his purpose and will.
It is God's will to allow mankind to have a will.
What is the natural state of mankind? Paul make the natural state clear. The natural man does not receive Spiritual things because he thinks that they are foolishness and because he lacks the capacity to know them. "But natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know [them] because they are spiritually discerned..." 1 Cor 2:14
When did this debate take place? Is this ongoing right now?
It was around 10 years ago I believe.
@@SavedByTheBloodOfChrist551 The (earliest) dates for the 5 days I've found are April 3, 4, 7, 8, and 9, 2008 (courtesy of the Wesleyan Arminian Wordpress blog).
@@garfd2 Oh okay. Thanks. I saw it posted on another website which had posted it 10 years ago.
@@SavedByTheBloodOfChrist551 Yep, I saw a few like that too.
I am a catholic but the majority of its theology and doctrines do not make any sense for me. So I adopt all of the Calvinist theology and doctrines. It is because the grace of God the Trinity alone, amen.
So God repented that he had made Man in Genesis but in reality this was his intention all along. This reminds me of the words of the serpent to Eve in the garden. _Hath God said?_
“Now God commands all to repent”. Calvinist “only some can repent if God makes
Them born again first.”
" There is NONE who seeks after God"
^
I have always wondered how non-calvinists think that prophecies are fulfilled.
Do they think that Jesus went to the cross by accident?
God is much more powerful than you and I. He knows the future. If you don't think he can know the future and know the future of free will individuals without causing all events, or making decisions for them, then I guess you don't think God is as powerful and intelligent as we do.
He knows the future because He looked into time to see who would believe? Then that would mean God is not all knowing He had to learn something?
@@terryburton6967
Wrong, God never learned anything.
Prophecy becomes entirely unremarkable under Calvinism because of this very wonder. It’s not hard to tell what will come to pass if you meticulously control every variable. Prophecy doesn’t actually mean anything if there’s no wonder at how someone could have possibly known that.
@@ryanwall5760
Isaiah 53 tells of Jesus going to the cross; do you think it was just a coincidence?
Many time in the Bible it says that prophecy must be fulfilled; do you think that happens by accident?
I don’t like labels but I have observed that God searches the hearts of people everywhere and reveals himself to those who are humbly searching for the truth and the chosen remnant of peoples names are recorded in the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE! and if one’s name is not written there in, they will never come to Jesus for salvation! This is why in every non Christians families some are believers and other family members reject the gospel! PREDESTINATION BABY!!!!
You don't need to teach a child to sin, sin comes naturally. How many times we were surprised children lies, steals etc. .As a matter of fact we try to teach a child how to be good, how to love others, how to respect others and how to love God because we are naturally sinner. The only thing we are freely to decide here is to choose lesser evil if we are being honest and unbiased. If it doesn't make you realize how we are so dead in sin i don't know what will make you see it.
The theme of the book of John says this over and over again and its consistent. And Jesus is saying this to his disciples, the very people who started church, the very people who wrote the bible, the very people we look up too and still Jesus says i choose you but no one in his disciple disagree with that statement.
John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
John 6:44 NO ONE CAN COME TO ME unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 15:16 YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit-fruit that will last-and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Lastly, we are not the owner of heaven, its Gods property so i guess all the rights to choose who enters His kingdom belongs to God alone. Besides have you ever seen an adoptee choose his adopter? Its the other way around the adopter chooses the child he wants to adopt into his family. Why? because of legal paperworks, the child has no capacity to do that, he is not eligible and entitled to do so, its the adopters duty to give all the requirements like Jesus did on the cross for us.
In Ephesians 1:11, we see that God “works all things according to the counsel of His will.” This “all things,” according to verse 10 includes all things in the heavens and all things on the earth. And according to Colossians 1:16, this “all things” both in the heavens and on earth includes all things “visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities,” so it isn't just physical things, but also actions, circumstances, and even the thoughts and wills of men (Cf. Psalm 105:25, Revelation 17:17).
The word translated into English as “work” is the transitive verb “ἐνεργέω” (energeo), which, as a transitive verb, it has a direct object (“all things”) and it means “to effect” that direct object. Since all “effects” must have a sufficient cause, this passage quite literally makes God the ultimate cause of all things in heaven and on earth. The same transitive verb construction is seen in Ephesians 1:19, 1 Corinthians 12:6, 11, Galatians 3:5, Philippians 2:13; see Thayer’s, pg. 215.
God’s ordination of whatsoever comes to pass often goes by the term “Sovereignty of God,” but also by some as “Exhaustive Divine Determinism.” Note that the definition of “Determine” is “cause something to occur in a particular way;” something that Paul explains that God does for all things in heaven and on earth. The notion of “free will” (self-determination) did not have its genesis in scripture, but in Stoic philosophy (“A Free Will: Origins of the Notion in Ancient Thought,” by Michael Frede).
If God knew all events prior to creation of the universe, and if God pushed over the first domino without having to do so, then all is determined.
Non of this, however, disqualifies genuine, compatibilistic free agency.
A limited intellect equates foreknowledge with determinism. I may know exactly how my son will react in a given situation, that doesn't mean I determined my son would eat the forbidden cookie.
That's just the thing... Why have some of us been determined to think that spirits - living souls (Gen.2.7) - *aren't like dominoes?* If creation is just a massive Rube-Goldberg machine containing billions of smaller Rube-Goldberg machines, why do many of said
Rube-Goldberg not believe that to be the case?
Compatibilistic 'free will'/agency is an illusion.
Dominoes aren't alive - they don't have the breath of life in them.
@@SpiritualJewbyFaithinJesus78 Not sure what connection you are trying to make between the start and end of your comment here, they seem not necessarily related, but the entire question here is whether the "elect people" are individually or corporately elect. Steve argues the latter.
@@PETERJOHN101 Just so we're not talking passed each other, so to speak, what do you think my intended premise was with the domino analogy? No offense intended at all; I merely want to clarify.
@@PETERJOHN101Foreknowledge establishes intent. My Foreknowledge that pulling a trigger would cause a chain of events that results in a bullet causing death or harm to another person won't actually harm anyone, but it sure looks bad in a court of law that I knowingly pulled the trigger anyway.
God knew what would happen if he created the universe the way he did. That alone doesn't cause the universe to exist with all its sin and wickedness. Absolutely correct. But question: who created the universe? A demiurge?
A thought in defence of God saying he intended something from an event, while at the same time not determining the event:
If I was watching my two year old and saw him heading towards a hot stove with his hand up in the air to grab a cookie off the tray that I just pulled out of the oven, and I was within reach to stop him, I could do so. But what if I read the situation in real time and then decided not to stop him, with the intention of letting him get a minor burn, so he would learn not to grab things off the stove and prevent worse injury in the future? My son had the intention of taking a cookie to eat, but I intended for my son to learn a valuable lesson for his future.
I did not cause my son to decide to take a cookie, and I did not prevent him from trying to take it because I had different intentions for the situation than my son, and I gave him the freedom to carry out his intention, so that my intention could be fulfilled.
Yes God can use situations to fulfill intentions he has that are different than our intentions in a given situation without determining the situation.
Romans 9:18 ESV / 1,509 helpful votes
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Is it just me, or does anybody else see an odd resemblance between the chosenness aspect of Calvinism and the chosenness which is central to Judaism? I dont really know what to make of it, and perhaps theres nothing interesting there at all, just something that occurred to me and havent heard discussed before.
Absolutely
@@ForrestS is it absolutely just me 😇 or do you also notice a strange resemblance?
@@tedbastwock3810 I notice the resemblance, though I don't find it to be strange.
With all do respect Steve but as of right now on part 1:
White: 1
Gregg: 0 😅
Dr White cited a lot of scripture and went into depth with most of them to explain where the philosophical points of reformed theology stems from (the Bible). You didnt really do that so far. Other than explain your interpretations of the verses that he already cited in his 1st open statement. Havent seen any other parts yet but lets see if that changes.
Regardless, God bless the both of you for doing this.
I'm not sure why those who are not Calvinist say something like "God saves some" rather than "God saves many" when speaking about Calvinism.
@@YuelSea-sw2rpokay. Doesn’t answer comment but thx
His blood was not shed for the ones who don’t declare him as Lord , they will die in their sins and perish.
Christ is the propitiation for our sins, he took our sins and bore them, he is the only way we are washed clean and accepted and reconciled to God. That blood is not covering those who do not accept him as Lord and Savior
Absolutely not, the precious blood of christ was not spilled for those who are not saved, but for the ones who are saved and will be saved, it is the blood of Christ that saves us and keeps us and we shall always look to and remember his FINISHED WORK. The question that needs a precise answer is this: Did He or didn’t He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn’t He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved. IT WAS FOR HIS CHILDREN WHO DECLARE HIS NAME, Why did Christ come to die? Did He come simply to make salvation possible, or did He come to actually obtain eternal redemption, Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst! because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
We are a dunghill of filth without the Blood of Jesus covering us.
IT IS ONLY FOR HIS PEOPLE THAT HE DIED.
It ties right into John 3:16-18 as mentioned
He died for our sins, it pleased God to crush him, this was the will of God that we may be reconciled and God save his people.
Very well stated sir!
The problem with James White's position regarding "whatever your hand determined to do" is he assumes God can only determine the larger details by determining all the smallest details. So to him, in order to have Jesus put to death God needs to control the number of olives each guard eats that day along with the size and weight of their bowel movements. 'If God doesn't control those things then how can he have control over anything?!' That's the problem with Calvinism. God is so inept at manipulating events that he has to predetermine every move, he can't actually outsmart his opponent.
Under Calvinism God determined all of Satan's moves. In reality, God outsmarted Satan and used Satan's moves against him. By putting Jesus to death Satan defeated his own cause.
Great comment.
My question to James would be did God cause Joseph’s brothers to sell him into slavery, or did God allow Joseph’s brothers, by their own sinful desires from their own evil heart, to sell his brother into slavery ?
If God caused Joseph’s brothers to sell Joseph into slavery then God would have caused evil and this goes completely against what scripture teaches. God does not tempt with evil nor did He tempt or cause Joseph’s brothers to do evil.
He did however allow them by their own sinful desires to do what they did, and He used this evil deed that they clearly did, as Joseph said what YOU did was evil. He did not blame God. But God meant the evil that you did, for good.
That is the problem with Calvinism in my opinion it makes God the Author of evil. If God so meticulously determined all things whatsoever comes to pass then He would author evil, and this is not what scripture teaches.
Let God be true and every man, and every man made creed be a liar.
I agree God is not the author of evil. I also agree many Calvinists are hard determinists in this way, which I think is dangerous if not just flat wrong.
Im not sure if James holds the same view as me, but I am a compatibilist. I would say God did not cause the brothers to sell Joseph to slavery. He actually held back their sin, allowing Joseph to be sold instead of killed like they originally wanted. The brothers freely chose to do the evil, and God allowed it to happen. God allowed it because he intended good purposes in the end. God was in control of what they did, but they did it.
I think of it like God gives boundaries to the evil that men do. The desire was there, and they acted on their own desire, but God oversaw it to work with his plans
I'm coming out of Calvinism, and this debate has been helpful so far.
Hallelujah!
Part 5 may have been my favorite. I bet I will be rewatching to go through the scriptures in depth. Exegeting is everything.
Both use the critical text so I wouldn’t bother
Man, White wiped the floor with Gregg’s arguments on this one. I really hope the other days of this debate go better for Gregg.
“Wiped the floor?” What does it benefit a man to “wipe the floor?”
It would be more godly to hope that truth prevails and Christians are drawn closer to Jesus Christ and that some sort of unity between brethren can come of this, rather than one man "wiping the floor" with another man. That said, I do think James White presented the better argument. But Steve Gregg is a good and godly brother just the same.
I find it really interesting that, toward the end of the video - White is emphasizing that this refers to ALL men, the WHOLE WORLD, etc. (that they are all guilty, they're all equally worthy of condemnation, all dead in their sins, etc.) --- so, he believes that God can say (through the inspired writing of apostles) "all/every/world" THERE & it actually mean all/every & world. But, when scripture says that Christ was the propitiation for our sins, & not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world, that Christ was a ransom for every man, that Christ died for all, etc., etc. -- now all of a sudden, God, for some unknown reason, can't be clear & these alls, everys, & worlds (& there are many more than what I listed) - none of them actually mean what they say, they really mean all kinds of people. The 'every'? Not sure, every kind? There's always some excuse for why scripture doesn't mean what it says.
@Gregg, I don't think that there is a verse that says all people are lost..
Roman’s 3:10. Romans 3:23
@@user-nn4bc9pv5f, all have sinned but not all are lost, Jesus redeemed us from our sins but after redemption some are lost because they don't believe that Jesus redeemed us...
Who said you must believe, is it not God? Therefore it is His condition, His ultimatum, believe or perish. That's s decree is it not?
I’m not a Calvinist and have never been a fan of James(not that it matters) but he his good when taking on the KJVO crowd and muslims
I can agree with that
Free will is a red herring. Why? Because the will is a derivative. Your will is free. My will is free. Our wills are free only in the sense that they are a derivative of our nature. Every creature's will is bound by its nature. Cats freely will to kill birds because it is in their nature to do so (even if they are not hungry). Being very pedantic about the issue, we only will things that our nature allows. In my fallen nature I say things of the Spirit of God are foolish but further I have no capacity to receive them because they are not within the realm that my nature understands. In 1st Corinthians 2 & 3 Paul lays down the definition of 3 kinds of mankind. Spiritual men, natural men and carnal in that order. Spiritual men are "partakers of the Divine nature". Natural men do not possess the Divine nature. Carnal men are like the Corinthian believers. They are babies and are feed milk that they may grow. They possess the Divine nature and will grow into the full grown man in Christ. How do I know that they possess the new nature in Christ? They are being fed. You do not feed dead things. So, think nature first and think of will as a second order thing that is governed by nature.
Seems some are ok with trusting the limited portrayal the Bible gives of our Potter but others are limited by their own logic who then try to make things make sense.
God does what He does and we are not to question Him . Pharaoh had his purpose and so do the rest of us.
Even if you use words like “He allows it”, God is still in front of it and not surprised by anything . He knows the beginning from the end before time as we know it.
I'm not questioning God. I'm questioning you and your understanding of what God said.
God did choose in his Word who would be saved and who would be lost. Pharoah, Esau and many others do we honestly think God has changed how He deals with his creatures? He is immutable and determined all things before they began. For His glory.
Actually, the Bible doesn't teach that. czcams.com/video/qods4PrFlB8/video.htmlsi=4Utqg4ub-Zl_4RJx
@@SteveGreggVideos examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. God is Sovereign, completely.
@@SteveGreggVideos I listen to your narrow path program and you are an egotist and full of yourself. Study and humble yourself.
and so full of yourself
@@jonathanfreeman4607 Gladly! We should all do likewise.
@@timothyvenable3336 I'm not judging if he's a believer or not. I'm just saying his doctrine off.
I can already tell you White won this debate hands down. "A Natural reading of Scripture" is an interesting phrase by Gregg. Reminds me of a fella when I asked him how he came to Christ. The "natural reading" or natural statement biblically was simply, "Christ called me" He opened my eyes and heart to see and understand and THEN I responded. But no. Gregg thinks that all we need is a toolbox and we should know exactly what to do. I've listened to his broadcast before. I'll stick to the more reformed theological podcasts because this is where God lead me from the more "natural" position of thinking incorrectly, to a more orthodox, faithful rendering of "his ways are higher than mine".
@@YuelSea-sw2rp Exactly. I think a "natural" reading of those passages can also be easily understood when you have a high view of who our God is.
I struggle to understand how you can be postmil...and Arminian. How can you exegete Matthew 24 but plainly eisgete 2 Peter 3:9!?
Wow! You can't get any more Arminian than 2 Peter 3:9! It is plain and straightforward. How do you twist, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." to support Calvinism?
@@SteveGreggVideos 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward US, not willing that any (of US) should perish, but that all (of US) should come to repentance."
2 Peter 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto US all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called US to glory and virtue:"
1 Peter 1:2 "ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
The US in these verses are the elect of God whom He predestined to salvation, not to all men alike.
This is a very good and civil discussion.
The bottom line of synergism will always lead to open theism and an assault not just on the sovereignty of God but also the knowledge of God.
Since God declared the end from the beginning, He knows who will be saved and who won't be saved.
Therefore, there are people that cannot change their eternal destiny
@ Joseph Conckle 3947,
Every person in this world are born either to be saved or the be damned, therefore every person can never change their destiny...
However...Men's choices are included(immersed) in the plan God knows will take place. The two are not seperate. If they were...then every command by God to man, and every punishment on that man as a result of disobedience would be completely non sensible and without justice. We haven't even touched the surface on the impossibility of "love" in a Calvinistic reality.
@filmscorelife4225 sounds like you are a compatiblist. I have no problem with that as long as we start with God and His other attributes.
@josephconkle3947 Yes sir. God is soverign and He has a right to rule. We can either obey or disobey Him.
@@filmscorelife4225 does God know what we will do before we do it?
no no no it’s not force it’s a gift of grace and mercy to the undeserved so that we might glorify him as he made us to.
This is all spoke of in scripture , recorded and decreed in the living word of God and I would not ever want to stand against it I plead you with , stand with Gods word and accept it and quit putting man on a pedestal we are a buncha rotten dirty smelly flesh who has no idea the true supremacy of God and the little divine revelation we do have you won’t agree with?
No one comes to me unless the father draws him, if you truly don’t believe the words of our savior, GODS PLAN OF SALVATION FOR ALL ETERNITY.
What do you do with Ephesians 1-14? Romans 9? They are elect its true, and I never ever thought I wouldn’t be never would I have chosen and I praise my savior all day long for the work HE HAS DONE AND I DESIRE TO PURSUE BECAUSE HE CHANGED MY HEART, I want zero glory it is his.
Why can’t man see this? He even recorded this in his word, you see his sovereignty from genesis 1:1 to the very end of revelation and you want to say mans free will is over his sovereignty and the doctrine of election isn’t so? Brother please stop giving credit to humans we do not deserve it
You both did a great job representing but one side gets to use Gods word and one side gets to use what they think about God
If you stand with God, stand with his word
Whether God ordained certain people to believe or not or whether God simple allows the unbeliver to sin or falls under Gods ordinational hand ,the outcome is the same .Bottom line everyone that is unsaved does not believe untill God does hos work of giving you belief ,Jn 6:29.Its a work of God and not of man .Nor can unsaved man manufacture belief apart from God's work .
Amen. A new birth is first required, then belief of the truth can and does take place.
Once I realized I was offended by God's sovereignty, I had a change of heart about God's word - and also discovered I was the problem, not God's election.
@@gerardgmz And that too is a work of God's grace in the heart! He is so good and so merciful!
Amen and well said.
@@gerardgmz Disagreeing with Calvinism is not the same as being offended by Gods sovereignty. I would guess that the problem you have with Steves stance is a disagreement on the word sovereignty.
If God loves everyone why would he say in Rev He hates the Nicolations and praises those who hate them as well?
Bc he hates what the Nicolations do and stand for? Would God hate a Nicolation who turned from the Nicolation way?
@@tedbastwock3810 if they repent yes. God's love isn't displayed like people like to think with hugs and kisses. His love is in admonishment, rebuke, judgement, forgiveness, gentleness and much more.
Love is hating evil because evil not of Christ.
One of the problems with Calvinists and Mr White is arguing outside the premise. Who says God is limited in power knowledge etc?
Who says that ? Now for Mr White to say it is a problem for us to view God as limited in power is wrong .....
When God knows a thief is going to break in my home in 2024 December and steal does that equate to limitation to power?
When a person hears a preacher preaching and hardens their own heart does that show God's limited power? No. So your argument about people claiming God's power to be limited is baseless.
What does the Calvinist say sin is? The Biblical definition of sin is missing the mark. Not doing God's will. How can there be sin if God is CAUSING everything to happen? What is sin if EVERYTHING that happens, ONLY happens because GOD CAUSES it to happen? Also, how can there be obedience if EVERTHING ONLY happens because, AGAIN, God causes all to happen, even "obedience" to God's commands? What about verses like Joshua 24:15, "... CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve..." AND Jeremiah 19:5, where God says, "...they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did NOT command or speak, nor did it come into My mind." You'll NEVER convince me that, as hyper Calvinists believe, God causes EVERYTHING to happen, even murder, rape, child molestation, LGBTQ lifestyles, anti-Christ religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, atheism etc.
I had this series in my Watch Later, but am listening in now on the good word of mouth by Braxton Hunter
I’m confused in scripture Jesus calls his followers Sheep . And the unbelievers are referred as goats. And in Matthew he will separate the sheep and goats ,Jesus says he lays down his life for the sheep , but are there any scriptures that say Jesus lays down his life for the goats?
@@YuelSea-sw2rp so we are all goats and then we become sheep after we believe, or are we all sheep and then become a goat when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. And John 10 states that the Father has given them ( the sheep) to Jesus , and the sheep have gone astray until they hear his voice
Sheep can be lost.
Too bad for this. I liked Steve`s Sabbath debate. But on Calvinism he fails..
Election is God's choice. If you believe then He will choose you to be conformed to the image of His Son if you don't believe He will reject you and be unable to conform to His image.
Good remaining Soverign.
Calvinism doesn't even stand up to common sense😂
In my non practicing Jewish family growing up my parents never taught us about our Creator certainly not our Messiah and we only had Hanukkah and I had a bar mitzvah. As soon as we left the nest I and two of my four sisters were chosen of God to believe in Jesus but our parents oldest and youngest sister were not chosen for salvation. Oldest sister died by her own hand and mother died in rejection of messiah and now father at 88 is on hospice and still uninterested in the truth living with youngest unbelieveing sister! Bottom line is God chooses those to whom He reveals Messiah to in each family gentile or Jewish! Eph 1:4 John 6:44,65! I don’t like to be labeled but if this is called Calvinism, sign me up!
it’s better to start at John 3:14/Numbers 21:9, And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
Anyone who looked upon the serpent lifted up by Moses was healed , just as Moses lifted up the snake on the pole so that all who looked upon it might live physically. those who look to Christ, who was lifted up on the cross, will live, spiritually and eternally.
Christ himself is telling us here -as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the son of man be lifted up, so that whosever believes in him will have eternal life, for God so loved the world the he gave him only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life, for God did not send the son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not judged he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed, in the name of the only begotten son of God, this is the judgment that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness, rather than the light, for their deeds were evil for everyone who does does evil hates the light and does not come to the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
The word world is used in 12 different variations -78x all together just in this gospel, Greek work kosmos, a lot of people say LOOK HERE IT SAYS WORLD, but we know this is not what was being said. The son has a mission before the world began, it is bound up in the LOVE OF GOD, for our sinful fallen evil world of humanity. To offer a savior to a world that is rebellious against God. The word “so” emphasizes his Love, he gave his ONLY SPECIAL SON, his beloved, to die on behalf of sinful men in order that his will be carried out, for he said in Isaiah, Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. “I alone am the LORD, the only one who can save you, everyone who is called by my name,whom I created for my glory,whom I formed and made. I, even I, am the Lord,and apart from me there is no savior! (Sorry, I love going to Isaiah 🙏)
It should also be noted, our translations have totally added whosever , which I agree with completely whosever come , amen to that, it is translated the believing ones shall not perish but have everlasting life.heres a link biblehub.com/text/john/3-16.htm
James White certainly won this debate
Even though I side with some substantial points of James White's on determinism here, his point about the premise of determinism as necessary for the logic of the Good News/New Covenant is just ridiculous... at least how he phrases it.
Edit addition:
Not to mention... hardline Calvinists, James White included, seem to have difficulty with reading and understanding idiomatic phrases and figurative expressions.
"I take the position that most people would take if they weren't trained in theology". That statement right there tells you everything you need to know. When you approach the Scripture without proper training, you'll come up with all kinds of wrong ideas. No, you don't have to be a PhD in theology, or know how to speak Greek. But there are right and wrong ways to interpret Scripture, and there are definitely more wrong ways than right ways.
The point is, he takes scripture say it's plain reading, as it was intended, and was not brainwashed and does regurgitate whatever a large institution wants people to believe.
It sounds like you'd take the position of the priests in Acts 4 regarding the "unlearned" disciples.
So you are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox?
God uses satan to also bring about His will, satan can influence people to accomplish God’s will. God in the below passages says to the lying spirit (satan). You shall persuade him (being Ahab),and also prevail! God said it with certainty that the lying spirit would prevail therefore God’s will was accomplished. Where is the free will of Ahab to resist when God says that the lying spirit (satan) with certainty would prevail against Ahab thru the mouth of the lying prophets?
1 Kings 22:19-23 NKJV
Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. [20] And the LORD said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. [21] Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' [22] The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' [23] Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you."
Isaiah 55:11 NKJV
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
I stand with Whites position. You only need to look around you to see the evidence. What makes one man choose God and another reject Him or ignore Him? Nobody would willingly choose God as the scriptures point out therefore if left up to mankind everyone would end up in hell and heaven would be empty after judgement day.
Edit: I want to expand on this line of reasoning. Usually the next thought would be so why would God willing create mankind knowing some people would end up in hell left to their natural state and without his interference? Well the scripture says it is for his purposes and Glory. How can we appreciate what he has done for us in redeeming us if we cannot see the other side of the coin? That is, we see those on the road to destruction and we feel immense sense of gratefulness and love that we can barely put into words but we can only fully appreciate it if we know the alternative is at the extreme end of the scale. Let’s face it, if the 2 options we had was either we go to heaven if we believe in Christ or we stay on earth as sinners for eternity, who would willingly choose going to heaven when you can live your sinful life on earth without consequences? So it comes back to the question why would God create a world where some people will end up in hell without his intervention? The scriptures are fulfilled in this when it says “what if God desiring to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy. People do not accept this verse due to what they see as unfairness or what seems unjust on Gods part so they will find an interpretation that would fit their bias or preconceived view of God that is they will put him in a box and say things like the Calvinism view is evil etc because in their minds and hearts their standard is higher than God. That if these verses were true then somehow God has failed and so they twist the scripture so that God doesn’t fail, by their standards. God has created what he has created in such a way that his nature and his attributes can be known, his love, holiness, wrath, righteousness are all on display equally balanced, we need only trust He knows better than us what he is doing and do our job which is to preach the gospel message for at the end of the day only the Lord knows who will accept the message and who will reject it but we leave that in his hands and trust him.
The scriptures tell us after judgment day the earth has been renewed and people and the church will once again live on earth with the Lord and how amazing that by that time looking back we have known him intimately but we had to walk through his plan and purpose first.
these two lack in so many ways.
Love both of these guys, so when Isee them together I have to watch. When it comes to things like reformed covenant-ism, dispensationalism, and eschatology Steve is amazing, I watch/listen to his videos for hours straight. He really understands the context of the old testament and the new testament and the events they described through history. Here on this topic I still lean towards the Calvinistic view point though. When I read scripture I read that God is ALL powerful, infinite and outside of time, as he "laid out the beginning from the end" as he put it. That said I do notice there is scripture that points to both views. So I see this issue being one that goes to "only God thinks like he does" situations. Thank goodness this is not a salvation issue, well as long as nobody goes to the EXTREME side of Arminianism and thinks we become Gods (Mormanism, etc), word of faith, and no longer need grace for salvation at a certain point. Either way great discussion Steve, and thanks for your videos.
if God did not choose to save, no one would be saved, salvation starts with God choosing whom he will save, every man left to himself will never choose God, the greatest thing we could ever hear is that God has chosen to save a vast number that John is revelation could not number them , but man cannot ever choose Christ on his own . What a glourious truth it is that God chooses because if God did not choose , no one would ever be saved. We would all die in our sin and perish forever , that God would choose us to be saved is grace upon grace upon grace and whom God chooses to save are the worst people on the planet , not based on anything “good”that God would for-see,all he sees is spiritually dead, spiritually blind, spiritually dead, spiritually rebellious, totally unable to believe upon his Son Jesus Christ, God must choose whom he will save and sent his son to die for their sins , and send the Holy Spirit go to those who he has chosen and awaken within them their need for Christ and bring them to the kingdom. By the way, What did you do to be born spiritually?
God grants and gifts Repentance and God grants and gives faith!
God must bring about the birthing process of bringing people into the kingdom to believe upon his son, and it all begins in eternity past with God The Father choosing.
I agree with all you just said, so I hope you didn't mistake me saying the opposite with my last message. @@jeremynethercutt206