When Mormon Missionaries Came to My House
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
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Shortly after #converting to #Catholicism, my wife and I were living in a neighborhood that had a fairly newly built #LDS or #Mormon church which meant that there was a persistent presence of LDS missionaries in the neighborhood - and considering my openness to wanting to learn about other religious persuasions, I was more than happy to welcome them in for conversation when they knocked on my door.
When they first arrived, I would say I knew very little about them, so I invited them in hoping I could listen to their explanation and become a little more fluent in what it is they teach and believe.
They often came back after somewhat intense discussions with new resources and arguments. In fact, they even brought back someone who, from what I could tell, was a bit of an all-star apologist - to answer my questions. But in the end we kept getting hung up on certain difficulties I had with their claims.
So I thought I’d share what some of those difficulties were in case they might help you if you’re an LDS believer or in case you have an opportunity to dialogue with one.
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Podcast Version: brianholdsworth.libsyn.com/
Mormon missions can be rough. They aren't usually treated very kindly by people when door knocking and many of their billets are pretty spartan. If you have time invite them in and offer food and drink. Don't be cruel, they are well intentioned. If you can, lead them back to the Church.
They are good kids.
@@flightattendantangela7248indeed they are. But very ignorant of the true faith. Just rehearsing memorized lines.
@@limoncellosmith7594 I agree. When they have questions, they are just told, “this is true. Believe it”. Something like that. What I like about them is their focus on family, chastity and morals. There are a lot of LDS converts to Catholicism. Not all make it because The “Francis” church contradicts the pre conciliar church. The ones who make it find the Traditional Mass and Traditional Doctrine……which Francis wants to obliterate. We are in scary times God is in charge and He wins as will True Catholic Doctrine, Tridentine Mass and Traditional Form and (Intention - Matter). Which I cannot judge. I only know the form changed. Impossible to judge Intentions…etc
I never thought of it this way, thank you for your comment.
@@limoncellosmith7594man, a few months ago I invited 2 mormon missionaries to my home because I had been interested in their theology since 2018.
Pretty cool people, we chatted a little about Bitcoin and other stuff… but when they started preaching…
I’d never seen such a mechanical preaching in my entire life. Every line was rehearsed and they even had pauses to complete each other’s phrases. Wow.
I wish I could go on and talk about how happy one of them was because he felt that he had finally found the true church and even baptized his (probably already baptized in the Catholic Church) late great-grandfather but I felt so much pity for how brainwashed he was that I simply can’t.
We had a joke in our neighborhood about the Mormons and JW’s. They’d work their way down the block but never got farther than #43. There lived a devout Catholic widow, Mrs. Vincenes. Her house was like a shrine, statues, little altars, holy water founts, home thuribles, Rosaries everywhere. She’d invite them in and they’d be there for sometimes hours. They’d leave and never make it to our house, #44, probably because they converted to Catholicism!
I bet they would just be hungry after that lol
@@joaop.barata6062 yes, they were definitely hungry. Plus they have a curfew, probably needed to get back home. 😆
@@joaop.barata6062 I’ll bet she also fed them. Probably loaded them up with homemade cookies too.
@@sandraelder1101 good point, good point. I served in Angola so, there weren't a lot of cookies
Haha but idols do not covert anyone. They met a bat crazy idol worshipping bead praying catholic. Haha now that is funny
I kind of wish they came to my door. Seems like the only people that come to my door are sales men.
Exactly that’s what Mormons are
Mormon missionaries are salesmen. 😂
Same lol. If they're "the truth" then I guess I'm doomed because they didn't do their job properly, and get to me on time, ha!
@@a.ihistory5879luckily that is what Latter-day Saint baptisms for the dead are for
They don't knock doors as much since Covid. More focus on public engagement / social media, etc
What's up Brian! My name is Marisa. I am LDS. I was raised in a home with a deep appreciation for many perspectives. So I actively seek out other religions to learn from them. I also attended a liberal arts high school which increased my appreciation for the Great Books and participating in the philosopher's Great Conversation. I dont consider myself an accomplished reader. I cant say that I've read all of Plato and Thomas Aquinas, though I did try. I was only a junior at the time. I should try it again now. Haha. But I do know the value of it. And in being well versed in historical questions and dialogues. Both in philosophy and in religion.
I have been dabbling in studying Judeo-Christian history and theology this past year, and I know enough at this point to understand why there are at least some of the deep questions that arise like this that you have asked of the LDS Missionaries. I dont feel educated myself enough yet on these subjects to answer the kind of questions you're asking, as they are very deep, built on a lot of theologically complex historical debates (like does God have a body. If He does, how can He also be eternal, which would go back to a very similar debate about the divinity of Christ at the Council of Nicaea with Arius). At this point I would consider myself a beginner at discussing a topic like that, since I am still learning the details of that debate. But there are other people who might be able to address it better. Whether you ended up agreeing or agreeing to disagree, at least you would have more clarity on the topic, so far as what Latter-day Saints actually believe.
If I could recommend someone that you might find interesting, I would recommend Jacob Hansen. He is the creator of the youtube channel Thoughtful Faith. It might be cool to have a conversation with him sometime. Like me, he's an appreciator of both philosophy and religion, and thoroughly enjoys a deep conversation like this.
And while I myself am not a catholic, I have been enjoying your channel and learning about the catholic perspective. And your deep philosophical questions. You create beautiful videos with very interesting content and well expressed ideas.
p.s. And Brian if I can just add that not only are your videos beautiful, but your faith journey, and your religion. I find great wonder and beauty and have a deep respect for Catholicism. When the dark imagery of the priests were shown in this video, I was thinking of Bishop Barron, and the magnificent love that radiates from him. He truly radiates the LIGHT and LOVE of Christ. I love that man. I consider him a profound blessing. Along with all the other priests that pray on behalf of the healing and protection of the whole world! ♥🙏🌎
I’d recommend him conversing with Robert Boylan as well
@marisajohnson2958 This was a very nice comment. Mormons are very nice people, the problem is the very core of your religion is false, and the founder of course a fraud. I am not seeking to be uncharitable, I am simply telling you the truth. The more you submerge yourself in history, the more you will understand this to be the case and that the Catholic Church is indeed the Church founded by Christ Himself, and that the Great Apostasy was a lie. I pray you convert to the fullness of the faith of Christianity which is Catholicism. Hansen should do the same.
I'd love if Brian would have a conversation with someone like Jacob Hansen or Robert Boylan, etc. That could help clear up some misunderstandings about LDS belief in this video (eg, 1. LDS does not believe in creation ex nihilo - "the elements are eternal"; 2. LDS believe many "plain and precious" parts of holy scripture were lost and not included by those who compiled the bible - mistranslations exist - it's not infallible... though mostly true and still revered as containing the word of God; 3. Apostasy did occur after death of the apostles, but corruption of truth was more gradual and certainly there were still many good people in the remaining church (the images of evil priests were a bit over the top); 4. technically, the principle of plural marriage remains doctrinal (ie, God hasn't changed it), but is not currently commanded or permitted. LDS have scriptural basis for this practice being something that has had a time and place and not always permitted - BofM Jacob 2:30, see also OT prophets, Abraham and Jacob).
I'm not really interested in a debate about different interpretations of the bible - that's been done ad nauseam elsewhere - I'd be far more interested in seeing a respectful discussion. Let both lay out their beliefs ask questions, have different conclusions, but maybe talk more about the values we have in common, how we can work toward common goals - that's why I subscribed to Brian's channel long. He says a lot that I agree with and appreciate.
Although Bp. Barron is one of the most recognizable American clerical defenders of the Catholic faith, he clings to some errors himself.
@@JohnAlbertRigali Guess that's the case for everyone. But the closer we come to Christ, the more we reflect Him, and that is what I see Bishop Barron doing. A man who spends all day every day testifying of the Love of God. An entire life time selflessly dedicated to Him. Is there anything more beautiful?
I lived in Salt Lake City for the first six months of 1993 at the end of my neurosurgery residency to study pediatric neurosurgery at the Primary Children’s Medical Center. The people living there were all charitable and hard working. The few times they knocked on my door, I just told them I was baptized and raised Catholic. They didn’t feel the need to convert me and were very polite and left me be. The same has happened here in my Indiana home now, just one or two times. Exactly the same reaction. They didn’t even want to leave me any literature. One thing of which I have no doubt is that God will lead them home to Catholicism if they truly love Him with all their heart.
Who will God use to persuade them if you weren't even willing to engage? When God wants something done he inspires his faithful servants to action.
Oh brother . . .
Why would God need to lead Mormons home to Catholicism? We do love God with all our heart, that's why we keep the commandments including the abstinence from idolatry that is so prevalent in the Catholic church.
@@BrianTerrill You probably idolize science fiction and fantasy.
@@tuckerbugeater already resorting to the personal attacks?
When they came back they pretty much said to themselves "we need to bring in our strongest mormon".
*Mitt Romney suits up, responding to the Mitt signal*
They did this to me. I was getting into my points that I wanted to discuss and all that he had to say was "I just disagree with you there." I was hoping we would talk about it more, but he did a good job steering the conversation.
After a few discussions with the missionaries, I got a zoom call with the mission president, and we had a two hour conversation, discussing deep doctrinal issues and historical topics.
@@IndyDefense😂
@@charlesmendeley9823did you convert to LDS? Asking for a friend.
I have two granddaughters currently serving on missions. Please be kind to them! My husband and were not raised in church and we didn’t raise our kids in church either.
Our son got a degree in history with a religious studies minor at UC Davis, but he fell in love with a sweet Mormon girl, and bought it all hook line and sinker.
Our 7 grandkids were all homeschooled and are just the best kids. I’m so afraid for my sweet 19yo to be going to the Bible Belt next week and what kind of reception she will have.
BTW my husband and I took the Mormon lessons and through their prayers came to Christ - but we chose the Catholic Church instead.
Keep praying for them and live your faith in love and truth.
How sad.
@@user-fc1ld9ts8u truly terrible
@@user-fc1ld9ts8u Your comment, yes, very.
0h theres s0 many t0 ch00se fr0m h0w d0 y0u even narr0w it d0wn ?
Several years ago, two Mormon missionary girls (college-aged) came to my door and asked if I wanted to talk. I told them I study apologetics and have specifically looked into Mormonism so it's most likely a conversation that would not be fruitful. They said they would like to talk about it. I again told them that it was not something they would enjoy. They insisted. Well, okay…
After about 15 minutes, I wondered why they were doing mission work when it was clear they knew very little about Mormonism. They didn't know some of their most basic beliefs. They weren't aware of much of their history. I gave them more chances to retreat, but they just kept falling back to what seemed to be a script. So I continued.
Eventually, they realized they weren't making progress and settled for leaving me a copy of the Book of Mormon (I didn't have a print copy so I was happy to take it). I've had similar conversations with a couple of Mormon women online and they too were woefully ignorant of the religion to which they hold so passionately. I don't understand that at all.
I was in a Starbucks a few weeks ago and two college-age male Mormon missionaries were conversing with what were clearly two well-versed Christians. They were having a respectful but intense conversation. The Mormons did not fair well in that exchange either.
I wonder if Mormons or JW's would like to leave you with literature, if they would accept any from you as well? Or if they are trained to not accept books or writings from the people they cold call.
I was a Mormon missionary and received no instruction about taking or not taking materials from other faiths. I personally accepted a copy of the Quran and Protestant pamphlets from individuals I spoke to.
@@patrickvalentino600 As a former JW, they do not read anything you send them. However, they will gladly spam you with articles and videos from their website with their interpretations on various subject matters. They are told to be careful reading things outside of their own website as it contains "apostate" information lol. Once I studied church history, it was clear to me that a great apostasy right after Christ's death was just silly.
Woefully ignorant Mormons are no different to woefully ignorant Catholics. The difference really is that we don't send them out to evangelize others or at least I don't think we do.
yeah I totally believe your story dawg
The only time I ever encountered door-knockers, (not sure if they were Jehovahs witnesses or Mormons) I was 3, and answered the door completely naked.
I’m sure it’s unrelated, but I find it funny how our home has never been visited by missionaries a single time since then.
If they were mormon missionaries, they probably left a note on their area book along the lines of "beware of awkward naked kid" :D
If you would like a philosophical treatise on LDS theology, read Blake Ostler’s 4 vol set, “Exploring Mormon Thought”. To say you were not impressed by a couple 18 year old missionary’s prowess in philosophy or even theology is not saying much. 😊
If you prefer to read from a Catholic perspective, read Stephen Webb’s “Catholic and Mormon. A Theological Conversation” Any theological discussion you publish without having read and considered the two books above, is not taking an “informed” position on the LDS theology. In fact, I would go so far as to say you cannot avoid straw manning LDS “theology” without having read these books.
Good Bless. (1 Corinth 3)
@@bryanhaycock672 I keep hoping Brian will read and study as he feels that is what converts. The Grand Inquisitor he should read too. If Jesus returned would he listen or debate Jesus?
Why send these missionaries if they are inadequate?
My mother always has Jehovah witnesses in for a polite discussion whenever they come knocking. She hasn't been able to convert them to the one true faith yet, but give her some more time and she'll get 'em.
They are Very brainwashed. I can't converse with them.
I hope so. I was raised a Jehovah's witness. It's a very rough culture
I don’t think it’s a good idea to let them in. I’ve heard some disturbing stories about that.
@@margokupelian344 Careful with that mindset, remember that any stranger you turn away could just as easily be Jesus. I don't remember offhand but I believe there is even a verse about this very idea.
@@reinedire7872 Plz tell me of an international Christian faith that is not part of the world, involving itself in the political and military establishments of this world. I would be thrilled to learn more about them.
I have found that our LDS brothers and sisters are wonderful people. I am a practicing Roman Catholic that has many LDS friends. I've had many meetings with the local missionaries, and they have not proselytized. We talked about Jesus, his atonement and our lives. We have more in common with LDS members than we do evangelicals in my opinion.
I am sorry, you are being deceived. It doesn’t mean you have to be hostile to them, not state if that we serve the same God is herectical.
I have been shocked how close to the beginning of Islam and Mormanisn they compare!
Is that a bad thing? This is not the first time I’ve heard this argument. It is often given as if it’s the ultimate insult. I’ve known many amazing Muslims. There are a few similarities just as there are many similarities and crossovers between my faith and yours.
What an insane thing to write.
@@tylerahlstrom4553 The reason why it’s seen as a bad thing is because their similarities are the objectively negative aspects they share lol
@@tylerahlstrom4553yes it's a bad thing. Your founder was deceived by demons and so was Mohammed.
Ah yes, we conquered lots of lands too :D
Be kind to the missionaries. I live in a building with Mormon missionary kids. They are sweet. I am a Catholic. I love Mormons, Shike, Hindu, Jews and everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. It is my job to be kind, loving and helpful. Catholics are to minister to the sick and help the poor.
Be nice to Mormon missionarys! God is watching.
I live in ghetto East Oakland. NO ONE DARES bother the missionaries! God will rain hell on us if something happens to them! God bless the Mormon missionarys. Lord, always protect them.❤🙏
Thank you for such a kind and generous comment! God bless you!
We Catholics are called to love everyone, not their sins. Therefore, we must present the truth to them instead of accepting their deceitful thinking.
As far as the Bible goes, the LDS believe that the Bible was corrupted during the great apostasy. They still teach from it, but they dont believe that the Bible we have today is inerrant.
For the nature of God, they reject many of the things that christians accept about god: ex nihlo creation, creator/creature distinction. They teach that God and Humans are basically the same species, so god isn't ontologically unique. God is simply a more developed human in the same way that you are a more developed version of your children.
I'm curious if you know which scriptures are used to defend the "different species' argument.? Is like to cite those four a religious discussion
Thank you for a correct summation of our beliefs. It gets tiresome to keep contending against straw man arguments.
I should add that we not only teach from the Bible, but we believe it to be word of God and is part of our canon of scripture so long as it's translated correctly. We use the King James Bible, with added scripture references and summaries and such. We also have the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, or rather, small parts of it, which we also consider scripture, however they do not replace the Bible.
We also do not believe the Book of Mormon to be inerrant as it's translated and printed over multiple languages and editions, and we also accept that the original authors may have made human mistakes in writting, this is admitted in the book itself.
But for both, we believe them to be the revealed word of God, passed down through generations by God's hand, one way or another.
I am not sure what you mean by God being simply a more developed human.... Um. LDS don't really teach that. Yes God has the same human shape, but he's immortal, powerful, all knowing, and lots of other attributes including glory (glowing like the sun). The Bible in Genesis 1:26, 27 says that we males and females on earth were created to look like the God (the "us") in heaven. We actually believe that there's a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (males and females on earth, males and females in heaven -- the Godhead plus the other male or female appearing beings in heaven). It says in Genesis 1, Let US make man (mankind) in OUR image, male and female. US is plural up in heaven. However, in day to day life, we only address our "Heavenly Father" or Jesus. In Luke 3 it gives one of the accounts of Jesus' genealogy, going backwards in time. In verse 38 it says, "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." God is the father of Adam.
@@mysterypro_music I don't know if you're a member of the Church or not (I am, returned missionary, currently serving in a Bishopric and institute teacher), but allow me to reply to you before people start regurgitating anti-mormon talking points, in case you're not totally familiar with this doctrine.
What they are referring to, is the fact that we do teach the concept that when Christ said "I do what I have seen the Father do" (paraphrasing the scripture here), he meant that God the Father had been like Christ once before. Keeping in mind that this is a doctrine that is very barebones. We don't know much about it. It was mostly taught in early Church days, and if there were more in-depth teachings about it, they have been lost to time. But we still do teach it to a degree.
Critics of the Church take this teaching out of proportion and out of context. 3 things to keep in mind:
1. We don't believe God is just a regular old human who became God. At best we believe God the Father was a Christ, or a Messiah (where, how, when, we don't know), meaning we take Christ's words (as paraphrased above) literally. So no, we don't believe God was once equal to us, just as much as we don't believe we're equals to Christ. But Christ is equal to God the Father.
2. We don't believe we will become Gods equal to God the Father. We believe we can become (lower case) gods, so to speak, or priests and priestesses, in the Kingdom of God, meaning we will always be subservient to God the Father and Jesus Christ, participating in furthering their work, glory and creation for all eternity. So again, we take Psalm 82:6 literally.
3. We don't believe we will have our own planets (lol) as many suggest. But certainly if God the Father / Jesus Christ are to continue creation of other worlds (we don't know if that's the case, and we certainly don't know any details, but as per our doctrine of eternal progress, that would make sense) we will be participating in that creation and work and glory.
Matt Fradd has several ex-LDS guests who became Catholic, they shared amazing stories about their journey.
Just going from one false manmade abomination right into another one.
Brian, please read Stephen Webb and Alonzo Gaskill's debate discussion on Catholicism and LDS. Called. Catholic and Mormon a theological conversation. Webb also wrote on Mormon Christianity. Webb was Catholic and a prof of theology. But once he stopped the stereotypes and non serious reading about the theology, he was opened to a mind blowing, theologically congruent, rational theology. I am happy to send you a copy of Catholic and Mormon and can put you in touch with one of the authors. Brian, maybe you need to read the actual texts and study from an apologetics perspective. The missionaries are forbidden to debate and argue as God never shows up in contention. But I am very well read in Catholicism as an LDS lady and we have MUCH more in common than either of us with heretic protestants. Please feel free to DM if you wish a deeper theological discussion.
The only time we had LDS visit, we ended up talking about the Catechism of the Catholic Church - it was only a few years since it was published, but they hadn't heard of it before and they sounded pretty impressed that we were that organised.
I don’t know how many times my parents have talked to Mormon missionaries. It was way too often from what I recall.
@Marisajohnson: Hi Marisa,im lds also. I would recommend Robert Boylen, over Jacob Hansen. Even Jacob admits that Robert is our best apologist. Robert is brilliant in knowing the Catholic church history and the lds church.
I second that. Robert Boylan is brilliant.
@@awfulwaffle1341 absolutely, the best.
I haven't seen anyone quite as knowledgeable. Brian needs to make a video with him.
My father and I were born a few towns over from where Joseph Mormon founded the faith. He went to their founding of their faith ceremony when he was younger. He didn't like it at all. Every time they come around he would tell them off. Of course I have Mormon neighbors in my apartment complex. They don't bother me and I don't bother them. I start RCIA in a few months. So they see me carrying my rosaries around.
Joseph Smith.
As a member of the Church... Joseph who now? Founding of what now? :D
@@ZetaN7 why didn't he like it? Is it because they don't pray to their nativity sets?
I’m a member but I don’t know what a founding of faith ceremony is.
@@joaop.barata6062 Joseph Mormon, prophet and translator of the Book of Smith, of course!
I would venture to say that most 18-year-old American boys would not be familiar with Michaelangelo's work 🤷♀️
They would if they were attending schools that taught art appreciation and didn't shy away from Christian aspects of world cultures. I knew about the Sistine Chapel when I was a kid and I went to school in the South, in Alabama of all places.
I'm a 21 year old guy and this is purely anecdotal, but most of the guys I know would at least be able to tell you he's an artist and recognize his most well known works like the Sistine chapel and David because it's part of the culture, I remember watching cartoons when I was a kid that parodied or referenced both of them regularly, I'd say at least those two pieces of his are part of our culture that we pick up on indirectly, like how almost everyone in the west knows the basic story beats of Romeo and Juliet even if they never read it. So while I don't expect an 18 year old would be familiar with his lesser known works like Pieta, they should at least know of him and a bit of his work.
@@lee9953 Heck they would if they just watched early Simpsons or "Artful" on BYUTV.
Brian, thank you for your respectful discourse about your meeting with missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think the utility of our diligent missionaries may not stretch to the sorts of theological discussions you were seeking, I know I would not have been able to satisfy your answers when I was young on a mission. I can put you in touch with many people who would be able to have these conversations with you if you’d like. I’d also say that it isn’t fair to base your understanding of a whole faith’s relationship with Christian art on an individual young man’s experience with that piece of art. I’m from Britain and one of the greatest joys of my life is studying traditional religious art and music (and I would probably say it is more accessible here in Europe), I was recently in Montserrat and it was one of the highlights of my life! These missionaries are excellent young men who have been given a wonderful opportunity to teach and to learn at the primes of their youth!
I’m all for an LDS renaissance of religious art in all forms. I’ve loved Russian sacred choir music for over a decade and seek to incorporate a bit for of that style into our worship. Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, and Sviridov all evoke awe and reverence with their sacred works.
@@forallthesaintspod Makes me wonder at the disappointed Greek and Roman philosophers who wanted to debate but rubes like Peter, James and John were unlearned. Not impressive to the pagans then either
If they visit, just get them to watch this video together and ask them for an answer.
@@koolxhades I am happy to do a response video. Quite easy to respond. Missionaries have no time to debate. Did Peter not knowing Greek or Greek philosophers not have the truth? A mere fisherman.
This is a fairly interesting commentary, beginning with the framing: that a 19 year old isn't familiar with Michelangelo's 'Last Judgement' therefore, both he and his faith are sheltered, are provincial. This sentiment follows through to several of the claims made against the Mormon position. The counters offered are all problematic. I don't know if this will be read, so I'll just pick one as an example to reply to (though any would be candidates, as all are fairly easy to counter)
-The commentator asserts the Bible states God created everything from nothing. This is incorrect. The Bible makes no such claim. The commentator references Gen. 1:1. This indicates the commentator doesn't understand either Hebrew or Greek. Gen. 1:1 does not state creation came from nothing. The opposite is the case. This is the Hebrew " בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ׃." The predicate בָּרָא (bara) means to form, or give shape to, or to craft. It necessarily entails a prior X that is acted upon. Both within the Hebrew itself and the entirety of the Middle Eastern Ancient cosmological traditions, creation is formation. It is the bringing of order from what was chaos. This also applies to Greek Thought. There are no exceptions.
The commentator also references Hebrews 11:3. This is the Koine (or vulgar) Greek: "Πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ῥήματι θεοῦ εἰς τὸ μὴ ἐκ φαινομένων τά βλεπόμενα γεγονέναι". The predicate here is γεγονέναι (ginomai). It derives from the Attic (or Classical) Greek γιγνομαι (gignomai). Ginomai does not means something from nothing. The verb means to be produced from, to be born of, to descend from, or be the product of. It does not indicate being without a prior source.
Creatio Ex Nihilo is an innovation by Tatian (a pupil of Justin Martyr) circa 165 AD. This is found in his "Oratio ad Graecos" (Oration to the Greeks) Creatio ex Nihilo was also advocated by Theophilus of Antioch, Ireneaus, and Tertullian all within the Second Century.
Creatio ex nihilo is logically problematic. It is absent from the Classical Greek Intellectual tradition. It cannot be found in any of the Presocratic writers, or Plato, or Aristotle, or the Stoics etc.. This is because it violates basic principles of reason first presented by Parmenides: something cannot arise from nothing. Creatio Ex Nihilo's logical formulation asserts -P → P. God is outside this framing as God is neither the -P or P., but a distinct integer. Therefore, the framing adding God is: God, nothing, then something from that nothing: Y • -P → P. This doesn't assist the logical flaw as the Y is in addition to the core performative -P → P. . The only way to avoid the dilemma would be to assert that what is created, comes from God ontologically, and so is a part of the Divine. This would be a pantheism, or panentheism. The issue then turns to the question of evil. If what is created derives from God and includes evil, then by direct correlation, God is therefore evil. That undercuts the core notion of God and is a different absurdity.
The Mormon stance that is dismissed as provincial by the commentor, is actually the more coherent modeling. Creation from nothing is an assumed dogma that is void of reason and alien to scripture.
POPE BONIFICE VIII, in 1302, wrote: “We declare, we set forth, we define that submission to the Roman pontiff is necessary for the salvation of any human creature.”
THE CHURCH COUNCIL OF FLORENCE, in 1422, proclaimed:
“We firmly believe and profess and teach that no one outside the Catholic faith, neither the pagans nor the Jews, nor heretics nor schismatics are able to participate in eternal life. They will go to the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels unless they become members of the Church before they die. No man or woman, though generous in giving alms, though they shed their blood for Christ, is able to be saved unless they are in full communion with the Catholic Church.”
At 5:05 “both science and the Bible tell us”….
Where in science is it said something can come from nothing? I thought even in the Big Bang there was something in a very tiny compact space that then exploded.
Also where in science can matter be completely destroyed? Doesn’t it just change form, like there’s some matter left over or transformation of the atoms?
Great video! Thanks for sharing! God bless! 🙏
Thank you, Brian! I always learn and gain some food for thought from your posts.
Brian, my older brother is a real wit. One time he saw them coming down the road and changed into his bathrobe and grabbed a can of beer. When they rang the bell, he said, “I’ve been watching you. I insist you come in.”
They backed away, never too return. Haha!
@@rosezingleman5007 What a weirdo. A coward does such things. He could not defend his faith so played dress up.
@@suem6004 no mormon has ever successfully defended the conman joeseph "moron" smith
Somehow I got on the Mormon radar when I was early in my conversion to Catholicism, approximately 20 years ago. The missionaries failed to make good arguments to me for the Mormon faith and would depart from me with the assertion that God reveals to all who pray for steering to the “one true church” that that church is the LDS Church. I prayed for such steering, and I ended up in the Roman Catholic Church - how unexpected! 🤣
I later discovered that Joseph Smith is a not-too-distant relative of mine - 3rd cousin 6 generations removed, I think. 😏
@@JohnAlbertRigali Jesus would fail your Greco Roman philosophical discussions. So pagan you stay
missionaries aren't apologists, did you meet there mission president, I am interested in what all star apologist you meet we don't believe in sola sola scriptura, we also do have additional scriptures called the Book of Mormon, the pearl of great price and the Doctrine and Covenants.
I remember when I was in high school here in Canada I actually had a friend who belonged to the LDS church
I admire your ability to analyse and explain complex issues by using common words and easy to understand examples. Thank you very much and God bless you!
A young, ragtag LDS team actually appeared at our Basilica and pushed past me to get into the locked door as I left the social hall. They walked a circuit through the church and dropped off "literature" as they went. When I caught up with them and confronted them, they spent a considerable amount of time telling me that I wasn't a Christian. That changed my perception of them for sure.
They had no idea what they were walking into! To be fair, not everyone is cut out to be a philosopher who questions and answers the foundations of their faith.
@@tlewis84able Ask Brian about LDS Articles of Faith and he would not be able to recite. Ask which chapter and verse Brian disagrees with in the Book of Mormon… Seems he expects one way erudition
How much further would the church be if Catholics were this devout?
Hey Brian, you should talk to David Alexander and Ward Radio. They would be happy to talk to you.
Also Robert Boylen.
Robert Boylen used to be Catholic and is a Catholic scholar. He could answer all your questions since he knows everything about the Catholic church and the Lds church.
We at Ward Radio would love to chat with him, and so would Boylan
@lukehanson_ Hey brother, I love your work.
Ward Radio rocks!
@@frankszulakiewicz5826 thanks! We love to hear when people say it is beneficial to them
Grasias for sharing
Hey Brian thanks for the video. I too have had my conversations with Mormon people some here at my house others out in salt lake where I go skiing from time to time. The points of information you've given in those video will be very helpful to me when talking with other Mormons and evangelizing to them as a Catholic. I would like to let you know how grateful I am for you and your videos for you have given me many mediums and options and evangelization tools. Keep up the good work and God bless you and your family.
That painting really is amazing. Especially in person! So beautiful to hear how he was so moved by it. Prayed and “Ave” for that guy!
Having lived a a heavily Mormon city, Mesa AZ, for over 10 years, I can confirm LDS kids growing up are largely steered into their own faith circles for socializing. Other than things like school sports, Mormon high school kids are expected to go after school hours to "seminary" which are often right across the street from the public school. Said seminaries are actually pretty light on content, its more for LDS boys and girls to imprint upon each other under adult supervision. A lot like Luther League, but more so. When LDS kids go on their mission , THAT's when they get a crash course in their evangelical sales pitch, and largely, that's what it is. A sales script.. Get them off that script, and they flounder.
The most important purpose of LDS missions is not evangelizing never Mormons into LDS. Rather, it's an initiating common experience, much like military service. Get these young adults out of their comfort zones, in often psychological hostile and very different cultures, where really they have no choice but to rely upon their fellow missionaries and local "bishop". It's a very strong reinforcement of cultural cohesion and loyalty, a mild grade "ordeal" that often lasts all their lives, one in which they can share stories about at their local stakes.
As someone from Mesa who did all those things...it's good to learn how it works from an outsider. Thank you for that. 😉
As a member of the Church from outside of the United States, please do tell me more about how I live my life :D
@robertlehnert4148 for us in California, it was early morning seminary, it was my favorite part of high school. It's nice being with others who are not doing underage drinking and premarital sex like everyone else is doing. I had one friend who was and is devote Catholic. The rest of the Catholics were Catholics on Good Friday when it got them out of school.
LDS have their own after school class?
Wait till OP learns Catholics built themselves separate high schools 💀
There are some distressing testimonies on CZcams about young missionaries who have to bankroll their own missions and often miss meals due to lack of funds. So it’s probably a good idea to at least offer them a sandwich when they come to your door.
As a Latter-day Saint, I've noticed that Catholic and Orthodox apologists all too often are pretty late to the game when it comes to addressing my religion. Secular and Protestant critics have been at it for longer. So their arguments have become more sophisticated over time (although there's A LOT of variability regarding Protestant critics. Their criticisms can be pretty pathetic too depending on the source). Catholic and Orthodox critics all too often reinvent the wheel when addressing my religion and they aren't aware of the strongest Latter-day Saint scholarly responses to those criticisms.
Meh. My late Dad warned me about LDS posthumous baptisms way back. My godmother left the Faith when she married an LDS guy, and Dad listened to them respectfully, then responded, "You don't have the authority to present me for baptism whether I'm alive or dead, and I forbid you to baptize me after I'm dead."
@@jacobmayberry1126 Indeed. They are as Stephen Webb learned woefully stuck in tropes, stereotypes and lazy study of our LDS faith. Brian is upset the missionaries do not know his religion but he did not know theirs. Seems one who values reading and scholarship out of others cannot expect it put of himself.
@@suem6004 Yeah no joke. "I was surprised that they weren't aware of these ancient debates on creatio ex nihlo and the corporeality of God".
Meanwhile, he seems completely unaware of the work of LDS scholars like Blake Ostler who have written extensively on both subjects. He should be held to a higher standard than a bunch of 18-20 year old boys given that he's had more education and experience than them on the subject.
Brian I wonder if you might tell me what the stain glass window-like soft light is called on your bookshelf to your left?
I catches my eye on most of your videos so I’m really interested.
Thank you.
This video was really helpful.
I tried finding something like it after watching his videos, no luck. I would love to know as well.
You would go on ward radio and talk with them, easy to. Distort when people aren’t there to defend their beliefs
We would be happy to have him on!
When they came, they left sad and confused.
🙏✝️🙏🕊
I think Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints described the missionaries very well. He said, "They are more like tour guides." Missionaries are often young, just out of school, and don't really know everything. They are simply going around, providing service to others, and sharing the opportunity to look into The LDS church. If you want to debate doctrine, you'd have a better time talking to someone with more authority or someone who's done more studies.
If you want the Lord's own words, they are among the "weak things of the world", the "unlearned and despised", called to "thresh the nations" (Doctrine and Covenants 35:13).
Minor correction 2: Mormons indeed believe in eternal matter, which God only organized but did not create ex nihilo. Neither did he create our spirits. Source: King Follett Discourse.
That's still illogical. If God did not create that matter then God has a creator and is therfore not God.
@@emouselOregon No, according to this teaching matter is eternal. There is no necessity that matter has to be temporal and created by someone/ something else. It is just a different approach.
Very good video, thank you for being respectful all times.
Brilliant. Very helpful thank you!
Another problem for the LDS is the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5:38,39 "let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God."
The following that they claimed to exist in the New World was dead and gone when Smith supposedly discovered the plates.
Gamaliels counsel is often cited for why they have been able to out resource the Catholic Church in 10% of the time and are one of the few Christian churches whose membership is not shrinking.
Is that an undertaking of men or God? Time will tell.
Interesting. I’m sure you have noted that Mormonism is the fastest growing Christian belief system then?
@@scottm4975 do you seriously not understand the criticism?
Surely, you are smart enough to see the problem with the claim you are making here. Right?
I read this comment a few times, and maybe it's because I'm not a native english speaker, but I swear I could not understand what the heck you mean
@@scottm4975 Hmm pretty sure Pentecostalism is growing faster than Mormonism.
@476429; at least you are not as bad as Jeff Durbin. 😂
But seriously, young missionaries are basically spiritual tour guides for the lds church. They are not Apologists in anyway.
Also, most lds members do not like to cause contention, so they are non-confrontationual. But you being an Apologist, you should definitely talk to Robert Boylen. I assure you that the outcome would be different. 😊
Exactly! “Let’s dogpile on 18 year olds to prove that Mormons are wrong!” Weak. The missionaries present the Book of Mormon along with a basic understanding of our beliefs so that the reader may know how to follow the truth by praying to God and following the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Unfortunately, too many are ever learning but unable to come to a knowledge of the truth.
When I visited the Sistine Chapel I wondered what had become of The Last Judgment, and now I know.
My personal encounters with Mormons and cause me to have considerable respect for them, though I also find their doctrines flimsy. I've found the Mormons I've encountered to be admirably decent people. They have produced their share of violent outlaws, gifted con-artists and other anti-social types, but so do all sects. I got to know a couple of them in law school who were highly educated and very high functioning indeed, even brilliant.
I assume Trey Parker and Matt Stone are not practicing LDS members. I think they are among the best contemporary satirists of our nation, perhaps the best. In 2012 Mitt Romney's Mormonism made me hesitant to support him, which I feel very silly about now for what I think are obvious reasons.
According to Wikipedia, there is no mention of either having ever been Mormon, so I think you are likely correct.
Parker and Stone were never members from what I recall (maybe their family somewhere was, but not them). Mittens (Mitt Romeny) is to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Joe Biden is to Catholicism. They are both highly corrupt politicians who are religious in name only.
@@brettmajeske3525they weren’t ever affiliated on any level, one just dated an LDS girl in high school.
You are a very wise diciple! The Holy Spirit is with you . God bless you !
Excellent! Thank you!
We live in Utah, and my son was told by a girl in his elementary school that Michelangelo was “naughty”. We do classical education, so my son has lots of so-called naughty art in his curriculum 😂
@@limeOjello 100 years ago? Stop spreading lies. Today’s Catholic. Let’s talk about that. Virgin Mary showing her whoo haa to all? Classy. Homoerotic Jesus? Right.
Thankfully we haven't had any in our area for decades, but everyone has a basic understanding mormonism where I live and knows not to entertain their beliefs. As a matter of fact, the last ones that did visit my town asked an elderly devout Catholic Lady about Jesus and she said "Come on in, I'll tell you everything about Jesus" and when they returned they brought their "elder" which he soon gave up too. They haven't returned since.
@@theearlofelm9168 Cite our articles of faith. Our Creed. Know LDS so well? Then recite them. Which article do you disagree with? That we believe on the Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Or about the gathering of Israel?
Mormons that come to Brian's door: Why do I hear boss music?
He has never met me. No amount of idols or beads tie back to 1st century Jesus. I hope to debate Brian someday. In the meanwhile he needs to read Stephen Webb and Alonzo Gaskill two scholars debate Catholicism and Mormonism. Webb, the Catholic, was blown away by LDS theology once he actually read and discussed fluently.
@@suem6004 I would gladly debate Brian.
Former missionary here, surprised the missionaries you met didn’t know matter is eternal. While it’s not a missionary lesson to prepare an individual for baptism it is quite clear in our doctrine. Creation is simply organizing existing matter. God the father is the father of our spirit, other heavenly beings assisted in the creation of our earth. Jesus is the son of the father and therefore existed after God. We do not know who created God the father but since we know matter can neither be created or destroyed it’s my belief his existence could be the result of another God. We are created in his image so it would make sense that God would have a father like we do.
@@watchd Amen
Very interesting.
that's the main objection I have to the Chosen - even though it seems to be a good series, there is a LOT of LDS funding involved...
The Chosen went off the rails this season. I am very uncomfortable with the show now.
@@christinereich6050 I haven't been following it, what happened? Did it get really heterodox?
@walter1383 no it got more catholic if anything. Shows one part of the hail mary prayer and shows Jesus establishing His church on Peter.
Angel Studios was distributing the show but they are no longer connected, are they? I haven't been following it closely but I did enjoy the first seasons, accepting it for what it is and on its own terms.
@@sethlikes2lift They quoted the Bible.
LDS missionaries are no theologians, they are 18-21 year olds straight out of school. But we do have many theologians within the Church. Maybe you should converse with one of them.
Yeah, the Great Apostasy can be a huge hurdle for Christians to overcome, especially Catholics. Both the LDS Church and the Catholic Church believe that God gave his apostles authority to lead His church. We just have different ideas of what it looks like and what happened to it.
Tried to make a nice comment before and it got taken down within seconds with no explanation. Just testing here to see if it happens again.
I live in Utah and have studied the LDS Church for over 40 years. When missionaries knock on my door, I will offer them a cold drink of ice water or lemonade on a hot summer day and I'm nice to them. I will NOT allow them in my house or allow them to talk about their faith. Please proceed with extreme caution when dealing with them.
Yes, proceed with caution, we could have a dog back home that bites.
@@kevins4254 Oh how broad minded you are towards others, grand inquisitor
To have a chat with Robert Boylan or Blake Ostler. They have have plenty of answers for you.
I remember i asked a mormon i ran into about Matthew 16:18 and how "the gates of hell will not prevail" doesnt contradict Mormonism
He said (paraphrasing) "It's my opinion that that passage applied solely 2 Peter"
yeah, that makes no sense lol
That's among the dumbest things I've read
Do you know what hell is?
@@scottm4975 the land of the dead and the place of torment.
Do you know what hell is?
I'm a member of the Church. The response you were given is pretty pathetic and really does not reflect our beliefs.
Our belief is that Christ, and His gospel are eternal, and that scripture is partially fulfilled in the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith, because despite the apostasy of men causing the fullness of that gospel to be lost and corrupted, it ultimately prevails both in the Restoration and the fact that good Christians continued to live that gospel to the best of their knowledge throughout the ages causing Christianity to become a worldwide religion spreading the word (the Bible) throughout the nations.
We would argue that while parts of the Gospel and the Priesthood Authority were lost, Satan never really prevailed over anything. The darkness was only temporary, and the glory of God prevails in the end, as the fullness of the Gospel will never again depart from this Earh until He returns and finishes His work.
I'm sure you won't agree with more than half of what I said, but I'm simply offering an accurate representation of our beliefs and doctrine.
@@marvalice3455 have you seen it? Have you been there? You know nothing about hell other than what you interpret it to be. Don’t pretend to understand what these things mean and then judge others by your limited understanding
Would leave a lot of comments on LDS reels on instagram.
Eventually, one reply lead to a continued dialogue with one Mormon.
Pray for her. She’s been studying St Thomas Aquinas’ 5 ways and the attributes of God
I’m a Latter-day Saint and I have really enjoyed many of your videos. And I take no offense in hearing your objections to the LDS faith. I’ll attempt to answer your questions.
1. We reject the doctrine of creation ex nihilio. Therefore God is not the creator of the physical universe. God organizes from existing matter, thus bringing order out of chaos. God’s spirit is eternal but His body is part of the material universe.
2. The apostasy was not Christ’s church failing. Christianity made the world a better place. Historian Tom Holland has had a lot to say about this. The Restoration is evidence that the gates of Hell did not prevail.
3. We embrace the KJV bible because we embrace all truth from wherever it comes and don’t believe in a closed cannon.
4. Plural marriage is an exception. Monogamy is the standard. Plural marriage is only a subset of the doctrine eternal marriage. Unlike Catholics, we don’t consider the leaders of our church infallible. So we shouldn’t expect perfect consistency in doctrinal matters. Course corrections happen. The church is lead by God despite the fallibility of those running it.
As to your last point, that’s something these Catholic commentators always get wrong. We believe prophets have the keys to administer the church. That is not the same as treating every statement they make as dogma.
Wow! is that really your living room ?
We dont see as many as we used too...still my fondest impression of the LDS was watching one of their.young lady missionaries watch the end of Rogue One and working out it was the begining of Ep IV....go Brinley
Once when I was a smaller kid I was helping my widowed grandmother do some work in the yard. Some Mormon missionaries came by and somehow she had them in the yard working with me, and there they were in the dirt wearing what a lot of guys wear to church. My grandma would tell that story throughout the years before her death and laugh that they never bothered her again after that day.
If you don’t have time for them, just be kind and polite. In our times, anyone who believes in God automatically deserves respect. And we don’t know what path God has planned for them in the future…
I'm from a small rural town. Grew up Catholic and stepped away from religion when I went to college.
Living in a bigger city, I occasionally would get JW and Mormon missionaries come to the door. I'd offer them snacks and drink, stay polite, and tell them I'm not interested. This was my younger years when my small town innocence (or naivety) formed my trustful nature LOL
6:38 mormon theology teaches that God the Father was also once subject to a mortal existence like ours and that when he created our universe, it is independent from the universe that he himself inhabited once as a mortal. It is also taught that our eternal mission is to become glorified to godship through the atonement of Jesus Christ and further learning in the eternities. I say this as someone raised in the LDS church and served a mission myself and membership into my 30’s. I’m no longer a believer, but offer this as insight into the God having a physical body concept.
Just realized when this post came up in my feed that your channel had been dumped off my subscriptions by CZcams
Missed you
I don’t agree entirely with Mormonism but they are always kind people.
The Bible does not state ex nihilo. The LDS view is that God's body is perfect, eternal, and indestructible and must have such a form to be God, it is an essential component of Godhood. Indeed, one purpose for man is to obtain a body by being born on Earth. This is a marker of progression/power between Man and the devils who are condemned to eternal spiritual form.
Matter exists and is ordered by God. God does not create matter in the Mormon view. The Bible does not state that God created everything in the way in which we imagine. God's creation in Genesis is Earth-centric, it does not speak of the universe as we know it, the heavens are Earth-centric and limited in that sense. So, God can be the creator of all we know and see but also caused by something outside that space. Also, given material is made up of that which cannot be seen including atomic, and subatomic particles, and in the Mormon sense spirit, then there really is no contradiction. This physical world did not cause God to be, but a physical world and an endless process of creation, redemption, salvation, and sanctification caused him to be. That God is the creator of all that we know can exist within this idea, as long as we are open to endless creations, possibly in ways we do not see, i.e., the multi-verse, multiple dimensions, infinite universes etc... Modern physics currently is exploring all of this, which fits well within Mormon doctrine.
Concerning Divine Simplicity. Aside from it directly contradicting multiple passages in the bible that describe the physical parts and attributes of God, and Christ himself, the man God, we must wonder that this concept is firmly lodged in Greek philosophy not the teachings of the prophets or Christ. The unchanged, unmovable mover that cannot be known and is inexpressible, contrasts very much with the God of the Bible. And if this is the being YWH, one wonders how such a force cares for anyone or anything and why that would be so?
Mormon doctrine is one of eternal progression and famously there is the quote, "You are as I once was and I am as you may become". God was once human and went through all that man goes through progressing to his present state. The eternal nature of being is another question and ultimately is unanswerable.
In traditional Christianity, the idea of a God of spirit, unmovable and outside of time and space, poses significant questions in terms of his ability to do anything or why he would want to. It also speaks to an existence of eternal boredom and stagnation. All of this is not really grounded in Judeo-Christian original teachings but upon Neo-Platonism.
The concept of the Trinity is also fabricated and non-Biblical. The idea of Christ being flesh and God and yet praying to his father, who he gives glory to and is temporarily abandoned by, as well as the end state of the three in one God, is so problematic as to boggle any comprehension. It's all a mystery.
The teachings of Christ are fundamentally lost very quickly after his death and those of the apostles. This is undeniable and one must be historically ignorant of Church dogma and traditions which come late and fly in the face of the simple faith and church established by Christ and his disciples. Also, if the Church did continue, when comes the great apostacy spoken of and foretold in the scriptures? Also, what about the whole of mankind left without the word of God for millennia prior to the birth of Jesus and still left unaware of him in India and China and the Muslim/atheist world but previously in the pagan landscape? Is a small sliver of Jews and then Christians enough?
Of course, it is a profound failure that Christ's word fell, much as that of God's word failed in the Garden and then again with the Flood and again with the Tower of Bable etc...Man always has the choice to accept or reject God and frequently has chosen the latter.
The Gates of Hell will not prevail ultimately against Christ's church but in the short-term Lucifer wins. The Great Apostasy emerges after the Apostles are dead and shortly thereafter when their authority also disappears and multiple false doctrines arrive, which destroy the essence of Christ's message. He is no liar.
The KJV is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. That is the Mormon view and of course, it has not been. Also, numerous books referenced in the Bible as scripture are absent, so we know we have an incomplete version. Exactly right that the Bible did not exist at the death of Christ and was only composed by committee and indeed still exists in multiple forms throughout Christendom, and these decisions as to what would be in the canon and what was excluded, was a secular decision and ultimately made by a Roman emperor, and pagan, Constantine. So, how does any of that work for traditional Christianity? Yes, the Apostasy accounts for the Bible, which is why it is a mess and often self-contradictory. The Mormon Church does not believe that all the men engaged in the creation of the Bible were evil or that even most of them were. It holds that they were engaged in a work which was not under Christ's authority. Good men (generally and with the obvious exception) doing the best they could and creating a flawed work which is in need of revision and expansion.
Mormons trump all of this by having modern-day Prophets and revelation as well as additional scripture.
Young's pronouncements on Polygamy and other topics as well, were not canonized by the Church. Every word that comes from a man who is a prophet, secular leader, etc...is not the same as that coming through revelation. This means his views were his individual opinions and not those of the Church. That is a big difference. Prophets through the ages have had similar difficulties. Obviously, Popes also have a lot of issues in this regard. Still, the polygamy doctrine is a good criticism.
Also, regarding bowing to the pressures of secular authorities, one need only look at the role of Constantine in the formation of many essential Church doctrines. One could also mention the secular influence of Charlemagne who essentially transformed the role the Church in the West v. that of the East where the Emperor (very secular power) held final authority over the Church in his empire, dogma, doctrine, appointments of priests, bishops and even the Archbishop of Constantinople. We also ought to acknowledge the Great Schism of 1054 and the secular components there and why this great division between East and West exists. I don't think this criticism holds very well in light of these historical deficiencies.
Terry Givens' "Wrestling the Angel" is the best intro to the background and teachings of the LDS. He made clear for me a lot of things which were murky. LDS has a totally different cosmology from RC: the universe itself is uncreated and eternal and consists to two basic forms, matter and "intelligences". As well embodiment is not an obstacle to divinity but a positive necessity. In shorthand, the LDS God is much like the Buddha, someone who did not create the universe and its laws but who illuminated and fulfilled them. Fascinating stuff. LDS is the most original and creative religious movement of the last several centuries. (PS I am neither Mormon nor Christian).
That's interesting, but Brian says they regard the King James Bible as authoritative (infallible, I think he was implying) in which case, they must accept that God created the universe.
But most people, of all faiths and none, hold contradictory positions, even ones you'd think were blindingly obvious. There's nothing surprising about the fact Mormons do it, too.
@@alicepavey974 They are clear that they accept the Bible "insofar as correctly translated" and JSMith himself had a project of re-writing it. And yes, complete consistency is mostly a dream. Consistency is not what most people need out of religion.
@@alicepavey974 we don’t think the Bible is infallible. The Bible does not teach creation ex nihilo. Show me where it does. That was a Greek idea that snuck its way into church teachings during the apostasy.
Fun fact: the LDS outright reject the book Song of Songs as uninspired. St Bernard of Clairvaux would be shocked...
@@cameronbailey9704 And LDS would reject Cardinal Fernandez’s Kissing a witch smut. And reject Catholic homoerotic art. And blasphemous Mary in birth statues. Show modern Catholic smut, I mean art, too and LDS would reject. No good Catholic art since the Renaissance?
I am a Mormon. I would love to discuss these topics with you sometime
White and delightsome
The simpler version of the Bible question is this: If the King James is the infallible translation, then it happened WHILE the Great Apostasy was in force.
As a former Mormon and now an Evangelical I really appreciated your perspective and the problems you point out in Mormonism.
FYI, Joseph Smith did teach that the Song of Solomon was uninspired, and so he did alter the canon in at least one way, though it's so still included in LDS Bibles.
And in the Book of Moses and the Joseph Smith Translaton he of course added, tweaked, and changed the Bible however he wishes incluidng added prophecies of himself...
Keep searching and you will eventually find what you are looking for in the Catholic church. In fact, you'd be well advised to start right here on this channel. 😂
@@emouselOregon
I can't accept the many false teachings and acretions introduced by Catholicism as doctrine. And having been subject to erring "prophets" I'm not going to subject myself to false "Popes" like Pope Francis who clearly does not understand the Gospel.
I was a Protestant for years and it wasn’t until I prayed asking for the truth and reading as much as I could on church history including all the early Church Fathers that God opened my eyes and heart. Scripture makes more sense than ever now that I’m Catholic. There will always be flawed, sinful people, including those in leadership. I saw many in the evangelical world. God used even sinful men. Truth is truth no matter what. I was so ignorant about what the Catholic Church actually teaches. I based my opinions on things I heard and my wrong presumptions. First read and studied and then came to your conclusions. 😊
Could you please walk us through the painting and explain it?
If they ask about the Savior, just say what would y'all cuties like to know?
Hey Brian, get hold of Robert Boylen. He's interested in talking about the Book of Mormon with you.
Great opportunity to learn about the Book of Mormon from our best scholar. It would be a friendly discussion, no debate.
How do you view modern Lutheranism vs. Modern Catholicism post Vatican II?
The hierarchies seem to love cozying up together
9:35 The apostasy was foretold by Paul.
2 Thessalonians 2 verse 3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
Beautiful living room
I think the whole issue with an LDS acceptance of the biblical Canon reflects a poor understanding of how Latter-day Saints think about Scripture and revelation to begin with. Having an "Exactly right" canon isn't super important. More books could have been included or excluded and that would have likely been fine so long as the overarching messages and theology are retained, which is the real challenge with some aspects of the bible in Latter-day saint thought.
Furthermore, the idea of evil and corrupt leaders being how we view the great apostasy is overly simplistic. Were there evil people who corrupted soem elements? Probably. But for the most part it probably wasn't led by explicitly evil people. Thats a bit of a slippery slope fallacy if we make it that simple, therefore they could still produce an acceptable Biblical canon.
How did they jump to kjv bible? From what source|translation?
Because that was what Joseph Smith had to work with
(16:01) What happed with wine during proabition of alcohol ?
I never considered LDS a Christian denomination. They dont have a Biblical worldview
They don’t believe in the Trinity either, as far as I’m aware.
Explain a biblical word view
@@John_the_Paulbecause the trinity is nonsense
@@frenchfriedfish1990 a worldview which is coherent with either the literal meaning of scripture, the spiritual meaning of scripture.
The literal meaning in this context means what the human writer meant when he wrote. The spiritual in this context means the entirety of what God meant and explicitly includes the literal.
Mormons reject the literal meaning of scripture on numerous levels, such as Trinity as revealed by scripture, God's transcendence over the universe and the indefatigability of the church.
@@scottm4975 there is nothing contrary to reason in the Trinity.
The materials have always existed. But Joseph Smith taught that the father received a body as Christ received a body. The father’s body is not eternal, but the elements are.
So I have some personal insight on Gods eternal nature garnered from my life's seeking. My understanding is that God, being eternal has no cause, and is not the effect of anything, God is uncreated, and was never brought into being, because to be eternal means to have always been, to have no beginning and no end. Now as to Gods structure and composition in relation to his eternal nature, while I do not believe that the Father has a tangible form that we could perceive, I do believe that He has a form, as we are made in his likeness, that form, I suppose could be material, or not, and it would make little difference, as God's substance has no impact on his ability to create something from nothing, nor does his ability to do so impact His form or substance, and his overall eternal nature we think in terms of our limited perspective as created beings with finite worldly existence, and so we tie our finite nature to our overall nature of form and substance, making the mistake that because God created something from nothing, that he himself has no substance and is essentially nothing, being pure spirit and having no form or substance, yet those are the qualities of the holy spirit, not of the Father. We think in terms of parts, flesh and bone, yet both are the same substance, the living word spoken upon the waters of the deep, and so God could have what we would think of as parts, yet not compromise his being one in his being, having no constituant parts or separateness within Him, just as we are of one substance, the living word, he IS that one substance.
I would like to add, I am Catholic, Dominus vobiscum,🙏🏾✝️🙏🏾
At least we could agree that if the Father appeared to you that construction would vanish instantly.
Joseph Smith taught that Jesus Christ was in perfect similitude to His Father... Mirroring the teaching of Christ that if _ye have seen me you have seen the Father._ This would also meet the hosts doctrine of gospel/doctrinal simplicity...ie that we needlessly overcomplicate things.
It would make an immense difference if God's form is material or not.
I get that you are speaking from your own lived experience, but we don't have to start over every generation. We can build on what came before. The assertions the church makes about God are not for no reason. She only speaks if what she has to say is important
Really enjoyed this video, there’s been a huge influx of cultist specifically Mother God cultist. Would love to hear your thoughts on them next ❤ God bless brother
Psalm 82
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Also John 10:34
Brian, you are straw-manning what we believe on the apostasy. Our leaders have been far more charitable to your faith than you're claiming. I'd recommend reading the article "Reflections on Apostasy and Restoration" by Robert L. Millet
Where did you learn allThis? Including books, like dedica and others
The Didache is a well known book throughout the world. Are you just hearing about it now???
@@limoncellosmith7594 I have heard of this book, but very few have that’s why I was surprised to when I heard it mentioned