Does reed position matter?
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
- The Saxophone Success Workshop: ►www.davepollack.com/ssc
00:00 Intro
00:15 Exciting announcement!
02:15 Explaining the comparison
03:58 "Misty" - which is which?
06:51 "Tenor Madness" - which is which?
09:34 Make your predictions!
09:41 "Misty" revealed
12:33 "Tenor Madness" revealed
15:16 "Results"
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• Improvisation Lessons
• Saxophone Lessons
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All reed positions sound legitimately good. Always reminded about folklore of the jazz legends playing on less than optimal equipment. And sounding fantastic.
Maybe...just maybe...we (all of us!) need to focus on PLAYING and less on GEAR!?
@@DavePollack yes. how many saxophonists have claimed that they sound the same on any mouthpiece they've tried?
@@DavePollackI feel like a lot of young musicians have a tendency to blame the gear when they don’t sound the way they would like to. I remember Patrick Bartley talking about this on his stream a few months ago I think.
I've often thought that gear and set up makes much more of a difference to the feel the player experiences, than to the sound the audience hears. Great post.
100000000%!
I like the sound you got from #2 the most. There is usually a position where I get the most comfortable experience per each time I setup (mpc/reed) to play. The age of the cane reed may slightly change this position over the lifespan of the reed. My best preferred positioning is usually #2. Others are #1 or #3 based on the strength of the reed if its not my usual setup (mpc/reed) combo.
Awesome! Dave, you always play Misty extremely soulfully. Awesome playing!
Dave, thanks, the differences are really obvious even though you are still making it work. Lateral displacement of the reed, not only at the tip but also at the table causing an axial mismatch between the MPC and the reed really kills the playability of any reed, and the tone follows. Reed below or above is a matter of what you are used to but it also depends on how much the difference is.
Unfortunately, a lot of reeds (especially Rico) are cut uneven from the factory with one side much thicker than the other, so I have to sand them down to make them playable.
Another great video Dave. FWIW, I use Legere reeds and for them, reed position makes a huge difference. If the tip is kinda far from the tip, the sounds gets very airy and a bit weak. If it's just past tip, the sound is way louder and more powerful.
Thanks for doing this comparison. I usually place the reed even with or just below the tip of the mouthpiece, but I'll try it a bit above and see how that works for me. On some mouthpieces and with some reeds it's hard to tell if it's lined up or not laterally. It would have been helpful to actually see the reed placements to visualize how much it affects the sound.
Totally agree. While I have certain preferences, it doesn’t impact the sound. Perhaps slight differences on the responsiveness which is enough to change my ability to focus on playing freely or not.
Thank you very much! Good to know, that you prefer a different position of the reed than my teacher does. Now I feel much more comfortable with my reeds. ;-)
It is a personal thing that is different for each person - experiment and find what's best for you!
Was a great test, and sound difference was really hard to discern, at least for me. I often feel it's more of "what does the player sounds like he's more comfortable using" vs what does it actually sound like to me, because they all sounded good to me. My subjective ear thought that #4 was the best sound, and I was surprised to learn that it was left of center. # 3 with the tip of the reed slightly above mp tip is how I place mine, and it's definitely now the most comfortable. With just the right reed strength, it's the best resonance. Pretty sure that's how I was taught so many years ago, but later on, realizing why it makes sense. Your embouchure closes the reed against the mp tip and this position provides the best seal. Press it down with your thumb as you place it and it ends right at the tip, release the thumb, and it's slightly above. All that said, I think I found that changing the reed placement can be beneficial depending on the reed. If you accidentally grab a reed from your case that's too soft and it's play time, and no chance to grab the right reed, you can adjust it up or down on the table (I believe down in this case) to make the reed feel harder as you are shortening the vibration/resonance length. Reed is too hard? try bumping it up on the table. I might be wrong on direction, but I think the theory is there.
I've long had my reed above the tip on my classical setup--I always figured that a strict professor might tell me to change it if I was a serious student, but I just haven't found anything else that works on my Rosseau 4R and I LOVE the sound I get from it :)
If it works, it WORKS!!
Enjoyed your test, Dave! For me, the quality of the reed dictates where the reed sits in relation to the tip of my tenor mouthpiece. The reeds I have been using are very consistent (D'Addario Select Jazz filed 3S on a Theo Wanne Slant Sig 8 mouthpiece), so I rarely change position. Most of the time the reed sits below the tip (1mm or less). If the reed feels too hard or stuffy, before I try adjusting the reed, I move the reed up even or slightly above the tip. A few years ago I was surprised to find that moistening the entire reed made a difference. Apparently, the moisture helps seal the heel of the reed to the table so all the air goes through the mouthpiece and doesn't leak between the two.
Great info! I like trying out little things like this (or like you said, moistening the entire reed) because they are cheap and easy to do, and *could* have an effect on the playability/sound.
Yes, I feel the same way, mentioned in my comment above. A reed too hard or too soft can be made playable just by moving it up or down on the reed table, at least IMO. Makes me feel a little better coming from someone else. And I ABSOLUTELY do moisten the entire reed, starting at the butt end, then ending at the butt end again. Seems to help it stay moist longer, and the equal moistness of the fibers throughout helps keep it consistent.
That was illuminating. Keep up the great work!
Listening to your play is also informative.
Thank you so much!
Interesting video! I like my reed a little above the tip also.
Great reed lesson. Hope to join you for up coming lessons.
Joel B
Awesome!
Reed alignment matters especially left or right alignment. But if the reed is too hard, move it down, too soft, move it up towards the tip. A well aligned reed provides an optimal seal.
Thanks Dave, very interesting. I must say that what I always want is easy blowing. Size 2 reed, yay; Meyer 5 small chamber, yay, so the mouthpiece set up has always been where it seems to blow easiest, and that's lined up. I would now say I need to push the reed forwards a bit. I'll do some experimenting, thanks again!!
You're welcome! I had played a 3 reed and a 5 mouthpiece for almost all my life, but recently I've wanted a bigger and fatter sound, so I experimented a bunch and I've settled on this for now. It takes a bit of air, but I absolutely love it!
They all sound very similar, but I thought #1 or #3 was with the reed above the tip. And #2 & #4 sounded the same (slightly darker, so I thought one of them must be with the reed below the tip). The only draw-back about placing the reed above the tip, as far as I can see, is that the reed wears out quicker. Looking forward to the Master Class!
Thanks - see you there!
In my experience with Wanne mouthpieces, using Legere reeds, it’s crucial to get this right, as tiny differences make a huge difference to projection and tone. Basically, lined up with tip of the mouthpiece is what’s needed, but you can only judge by playing , not by seeing it as in line, as this depends on angle of vision.
That's the key - PLAY it to find out, not just look at it!
I think I liked #2 and #5. It's quite difficult to judge; at college one lecturer would take 4 orchestras playing the same piece, play them through and then replay towards the end of the class change the order. More often than not the first version played was the one the class chose as the best rendition. The other thing is your playing is very distracting; melodic facility and agility, I sort of forgot what I was supposed to be listening for, which I think, pretty much, your tone was good throughout. Great video thanks.
Glad you liked it!
wow.. Ok i gotta try placing my reed slightly above the tip rail and see how it goes :) I do agree that you had the biggest fattest sound with the reed slightly above.
I found this very interesting, im a clarinet player and i prefer my reed just slightly below the tip of the mouthpiece, i feel like i have more dynamic control when i do so. My loud is louder and my soft is softer. And just in general ive been paying way more attention to my reeds since ive started playing oboe about a year ago because reeds are just waaayyy to sensitive to the slightest change in anything. You would think since oboe and bassoon are both double reeds they would be similar in that way, no. Apart from the wack fingerings bassoon is so much easier than the onoe at least from my perspective and the little experience i have with playing bassoon
i only listened to the first 4 of the Misty ones but thought #3 was best and 1# second and then a tie between 2# and 4# - the nuances with intonation, the core of your sound etc. was just slightly better in my opinion - clear you were more comfortable. Had i heard one of the other positions without a comparison i wouldn't have thought about it at all - you sound great anyways. :)
Thanks so much!
I love to adjust my reed to which gives me the best airflow and least air resistance and most reed vibration
And the only way to know where to place it is to test it out and see!
For me the differences are huge. I can’t even line the reed up visually, I need to feel it with the tip of my tongue.
Same😂
Same here, and the fact that the legeres i'm playing on are semi-transperent is somewhat of a struggle 🙂
Sometimes if the reed is uneven or has more fibers on one side (holding it up to a light will show this), moving it slightly right or left can have positive effects. For most reeds that the fibers are even you won't need to do this but I've done it on a couple of gigs when I didn't have another reed on deck. Moving it up and down has its benefits depending on your reed strength and mouthpiece combination. I also move up my reed slightly because my reeds are generally a little softer.
Sidenote: Synthetic reeds change drastically when you make any of these adjustments, far more than cane.
Good to know! If a reed doesn't play well right out of the box I just move on to the next (I always have a ton on me) but if you want to work on reeds, etc. that's good info!
I just sand down the thicker side of the reed when it's uneven like that.
Good video. I've found that with me, a cane reed is much more forgiving of position than, say, a legere.
Thanks! I haven't played them (or any fully synthetic reed) but I've heard that as well.
I don’t think reed positions should really change the sound as much as it changes the overall ease and comfort like you said. I’m not one to fuss around and try to find the “perfect reed”. I play them all as they come out of the box and keep them on my mouthpiece until they die, however I think the positions can really change the outcome of feel. Typically a reed just above the tip makes for a more resistant feel and I’ll suggest my clarinet students to move it up when they’re squeaking a lot. I find that the kids can push more air without distorting and crossing that threshold. When the reed sits below the opposite happens, more free blowing and in my experience, less stable and more susceptible to chirps and squeaks. I feel both these effects are much more exaggerated on clarinet as opposed to saxophone, but still all factor into the feel of your horn. All said and done it’s about comfort. I wear mine either even or just above like you.
It would be nice if you enabled us to actually see the positions of reed that yoo were talking about.
How much is reed really displaced? "Slightly" is relative term...
Anyway, great and interesting video as always!
Yea my bad on that...I definitely should have shown pictures for each setup 🤦♂️
like #2 most...thanks for your videos!
You're very welcome - I'm glad you like them!
It is like asking if. "Does physics works??? " sure it matter and in a big way.Period.
And Btw, there a a lot of variables involved like they type of reed, your mouthpiece, dental shape etc etc. For me down from the tip even 3 millimeters is where I can play well all over the instrument.
And, last but not least, When I see a musician setting up the reed while the have the saxophone hanging it means that they do not have the least amount of common sense.
The right way is: take out the neck, put it upside down , put the mouthpiece, put the ligature and there is where you will have the right view to put the reed evenly side ways and where you want it to be, over the tip, aligned with the tip, or bellow the tip.Then you can put the neck on the body of the horn.
Ps, sorry about my poor english.
Well I guess I don't have any common sense either, because I always have the sax put together and hanging from my neck when I put the reed on. Oh well!
I always push my reed tip to the table tip of the mouthpiece to control the position, does anybody do it the same way? Because if I let it be as it is without pushing, I cant see the exact position... Different angle of looking etc. matters
I'm a big fan, so I want to hear the live sound❣️
How many markvi cereals do you use?
I have a few thoughts before I listen to it all. The first is that jazz mouthpieces are a lot more forgiving with reed placement. If a student of mine had the reed off, it may take me a while to notice. Conversely, when doing classical lessons, I can tell immediately. A student walks into their lesson, and before they get to a second note, I ask to see their reed placement and am correct that it is off literally around 99% of the time. As soon as it is fixed, the sound and response issue goes away. So I am confident reed placement makes a difference, at least when playing on a classical setup. (I mean specifically something like a Selmer S-80 C* or a Vandoren AL-3, not a 4C or other generic mouthpiece)
For jazz, once I am confident there is a sound issue, the reed placement being fixed also solves the issue most of the time.
The last thought is that I am confident you (Dave) can adjust your embouchure and air to make your setup work no matter what. I imagine it will be hard to tell which placement you have from the listener’s perspective , but you can probably tell immediately from your perspective.
Anyway, I am going to listen on now!
Thanks so much for that info! Yes, the feel was way more apparent to me than the recording would lead you to believe. For a more beginner student though, it can be a real issue if it's not lined up properly - they will be FIGHTING the setup, which is rough.
@@DavePollack, you have already proven you would sound killer even if your saxophone were stuffed with skittles. (New video idea??)
It’s great that in the video you spoke about the response from your end.
It’s funny, because for me, I always choose to put the reed a hair down.
Anyway, as always, incredible video!
And that's the important thing - try different things so you can find what works for YOU!
When my reed feels too soft, I typically move it more over the tip to have my lip on a thicker piece of the reed. I do this all for responsiveness and not sound though.
That's a great reason to do it!
I also wonder if it matters more on a comparatively shorter facing/closed tip than a wide open mouthpiece?
It'd be great for someone to try and let me know!
Actually except for #1 which some notes sounds a bit strange. I think for most people, we can’t tell the difference.
It would be interesting to know what "a little bit" means.
Dave, I liked the sound of # 5. I've always been taught to have the reed tip the width of a hair below the mouthpiece tip. Which begs another question, where should the ligature pressure be placed? just behind the heart of the reed, or other. Maybe that's another lesson?
To an extent, higher for a brighter tone, lower for darker. Well that’s what it at least sounds like for me.
Very worthy (and easy) to test yourself and see which plays better.
I usually just put it in the middle of the fat part of the mouthpiece - that might have to be another comparison video!
I thoroughly agree on pretty much all ponts. Cockeyed is terrible and i start chirping a bit also.
100%
I could tell the #2 was even. The main thing it changes is the responsiveness of the note. Like playing a video game with better WiFi. Other than that I don’t think it causes much other changes.
But it doesn’t feel nearly as good as hanging it over the edge, and i don’t think it sounds as good either!
You are now my saxophone myth buster
🙏 Thanks so much! I have other comparison videos as well, so be sure to check them out!
That’s exactly what I thought !!!
I really couldnt hear the difference Dave. You play so good it didnt seem to affect you at all. If i would have tried that as the novice i am, it would have been definitely noticable. At the end of the day i position my reed just a bit either up or down depending on the mouthpiece tip.
Thank you! I could definitely FEEL the difference way more than you can hear on the recordings.
Left and right really sounded like you turned down the high harmonics of your tone. Low just sounded muted. Surprised that you like extending the reed over the tip since I find it makes the reed a bit stiffer and requires more air. Cool cheap experiment that anyone can do!
And the left/right ones felt really BAD to play, hah.
Great video, thanks. What harness do you use?
Thanks! It’s a Boston Sax Shop neckstrap
I like listening to your playing, it’s very good. Ok, my comment now before continuing to find out which was which. My ears never do well at tests like these, but to me #4 sounded a bit muffled and #5 sounded a bit too much reed like you get when you take in more of the mouthpiece than you should. Now to find out how wrong I was.
Ha! I sure was off. LOL. Dave, I sure you could sound good with any old slab of wood in there.
Hahah, thanks so much!
Dave I was hoping for more noticeable differences in each of the positions but since you’re really great at manipulating the sound they all sound good with only very subtle, hardly noticeable differences (at least through my iPhone speaker). When I saw the title I wanted to use this as an example video to show my students, especially the beginners, to help reinforce the importance of putting the reed on correctly. You kinda nixed that idea! 😂
Ah, sorry about that! Well you can teach them that even though they sounded similar, one of them felt wayyyyy better than the others, so it made playing A LOT easier.
Gonna watch it.
🙏
Armatures vary I suppose 🤔🎶🎵🎶🎷
Oh yeah, I recently had some altissimo success - high G and the D above that - same fingering. And I was foolish enough to try to play them at a recent jam. Complete silence. Hard to make it look like you intended complete silence! ;-)
Ha!
Very interesting…I have actually found that if I use a reed that feels too hard, I prefer it like you, a little long….if I’m using softer reeds, I’ll line it up a little shorter to get it to sound better, and if a reed is just right, I’ll do it just about even…wonder if you prefer it longer because you play a wide tip with fairly hard reeds to give it a softer feel? I use either 2.5 or 3.0 Boston Sax reeds…usually the black box, but testing the silver box…my only gripe…you can’t tell a silver from a black reed once you take it out of the box! At least I haven’t noticed any marking that distinguishes them; you?
Yes you can tell the difference! There are 2 horizontal lines above and below the BSS logo on the reed itself - compare them side-by-side and you'll see!
@@DavePollack BOOM! So right!!! Didn’t notice that! Awesome!
What is that one orange mouthpiece you used to play on alto
10mfan alto madness - "ultem" material
Dave, with the reed above the tip, don’t you worry about cutting your tongue on the sharp edge?
Hasn't happened to me yet! I also don't articulate with the tip of my tongue, so maybe that's why?
I'm not sure I would like to play a synthetic reed placed higher than the mpc tip, in case it caused some damage to my mouth. Pros can sound good playing anything compared with us mere mortals. An ex-teacher of mine (top UK pro), would hardly ever throw a reed away. He even sounded great with large piece of reed missing (but that was after 5 pints of beer). With regards to my fingering, my wife says I have room for improvement.
A 19 minute video about reed positions. I didnt know it could be done.
Saxophonists are weird
Yeah now that you mention it I suppose I am weird
Actually I didn’t hear much of a difference in #1-4, only #5 sounded a bit muffled to me. Obviously you compensated heavily.
Now I wonder if you want to try the same with synthetic reeds? I love my legere reeds but they are not forgiving if you don’t place them properly, especially left or right.
I’m good with my BSS - no need for me to play those other ones! Someone else can try it, though
There definitely are wrong positions for a reed. Just try various positions and figure out what you prefer. Probably down the road you’ll find another that pleases you.
For me 1 3 sound bad 2 5 sound good
Yeah it matters. You don’t find that sweet spot your horn ain’t gonna blow right.
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