Solid-State Dehumidifier: The Ultimate Filament Dry Box
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
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I got my hands on some fancy solid-state dehumidifiers from the company Rohsal and tried to build the filament dry box of the future, which is maintenance-free and very efficient. Yet how does this novel technology compare to regular silica gel and how often should you replace the silica gel in your dry box?
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Big Clive's video: • Incredible solid state...
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:39 How do Solid State Dehumidifier work?
01:51 Filament Moisture Problem
03:25 Choosing a Dehumidifier
05:13 Installing it in my Bambu Lab AMS
06:56 Sponsor
08:34 Empty Dry Box Test
11:21 How Much Moisture is in Filament?
12:44 Full Dry Box Test
14:11 Summary
16:33 Verdict
#3Dprinting #DryBox #CoolTech
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I see CNC Kitchen, I WATCH.
THIS is the content that CZcams needs. Experiments that push things forward = GOLD. Other content creators would do well to take note of this.
was just talking about this on lemmy today. his content actually gives us answers to questions we all have! relatively scientifically too
So much bro-science going around it's good to get real answers
Its nice that he has the knowledge he does!
Im always curious the background some of these smartie pants 3d print youtubers have!
Like the guy behind VORON printers has PHD in STEPPER MOTORS of all things lol. how neat! lol
I used to work on industry 3D printer dryboxes, and wasn't aware of these solid state dehumidifiers. Incredible technology, I wish i knew about this a few years ago.
This was a good treatment of the filament moisture load problem. I used to perform calculations and experiments to determine diffusion times of moisture into and out of filaments. It's a multi scale problem, since you have diffusion at the filament level (small dia cylinder, 1D radial problem), then you also have the fact that the spools have large thicknesses, so this becomes a more complicated problem. There is also the diffusion and convection/advection through any gaps, through the filament tube, the 1d transport along that, the forcing from variations in pressure over a given day which effectively pump on and pressurize the volume with some frequency, etc.
I would recommend doing calculations for absolute humidity, instead of relative humidity, to understand the desiccant moisture load of a given volume. It is straightforward to calculate how much moisture a dessicant can take up, and then relate this to how many times you can open the door to the drybox (because immediately, the air is exchanged), and evaluate how long desiccant should last at steady state.
I did so much math and so many experiments... Molecular sieve is the best... 4A is incredible stuff.
Also, how long a spool is in the air matters a lot for how much moisture it picks up. If you know the diffusion rate of water vapor in nylon for example, you can estimate how deep and how much water becomes trapped. Diffusion occurs radially inward and outward, because the spool starts dry, so the gradient drops at the surface when you place in dry environment, but some of the water still works its way inward since there is still low concentration there. If you catch it fast enough though, moisture can be pulled out very quickly.
Happy to share more details if needed, but it quickly rises to needing to build a numerical diffusion model, which isn't too bad if you have an engineer or physicist friend. There are analytical solutions for special cases (the mathematics of diffusion, j. crank...its a complicated topic), but a numerical solution can help accommodate a range of forcing functions like opening and closing drybox doors, having varying environmental temperature and pressure, and having some steady leak rates to estimate how long dessicant should last.
Wha do you think abuout the filament side of the electrolyzer being O2 rich?
Do you think having the filament soted in such an 02 rich enviornment would cause it to quickly oxidize and become brittle much faster?
I've been using Rosahl's M-3J1R membrane in my AMS for about a year. I placed it in the back of the base though, and put a 20mm fan drawing air through a hole where the desiccant would normally sit. Since they don't draw much power, I am just tapping into the power feed for the AMS and stepping down the voltage. It keeps the humidity in the AMS at 10-15% RHM, but does take a few days to come back down if I put rolls of hygroscopic filament that have been sitting out into the AMS.
Damn, and I thought I was the first to do this. Joke aside, great hearing that it works for you as well and tapping the fan into the AMS supply is a great idea. I considered hooking a 5V fan to the 3V of the SSDH, yet was uncertain if this might increase the ripple voltage of the supply.
How did you get a hold of the membrane? They only appear to be available to equipment mfgs.
Do you have a picture?
Do you have any pics or videos of this set up? I'd love to try this out.
Hi, would you be so kind and share your construction?
Been watching Big Clive for what must be over a decade now. His channel has given me so many ideas when working with electronics.
Only just noticed he has only recently made the 1m subscriber milestone after all this time. His channel deserves more love, he rocks.
I had the exact same thought when I watched that bigclive video, thank you for fulfilling that desire to test it!
Glad you liked it!
How does it compare to 3A molecular sieve? I can pull moisture below 1%, with no heat, using zeolite. I look forward to that video
In energy efficiency not so great.
Another cheap option are calcium chloride bags - those seem to work really well according to those cheap humidity sensors.
They are sold as room dehumidifier bags.
Molecular sieves are likely really good at drying however regenerating them takes higher temperatures and maybe more specific atmospheric conditions.
Can we regen those calcium bags? @@schublade4
@@schublade4 Honestly, they're cheap enough, and last long enough (if you keep the filament in individual boxes, and print directly from the box, like I do. Don't constantly open the box to change filament color), that I just plan on throwing away the molecular sieve, after it's saturated. I have used 7lb to fill 11 boxes, and I've consumed probably 20kg of filament, and have only had to replace the molecular sieve in one of the 11 boxes.
I've got one small dry box right here with A3, where my professional data logger really showed 0.0% after a while 😅
Missed the opportunity to mention your deburring tools when making the cutout.
What I would do differently is mount the thing at the top of the lid. Water vapour is lighter than air and is the most concentrated at the top of the container.
depends. Not an expert on thermodynamics to explain the effect but if the bottom of the drybox is just a bit colder than the top the moisture will most likely condensate at the bottom and cause a local maximum there. Guess thats also the reason most heated boxes have the heating element on the bottom to force the moisture from bottom to top like a furnace. I think a bottom heater + that electrolysis thing at the top like you mention would be a great drybox!
i initially wanted to correct you, but then looked it up and you are right with water vapour being lighter than air 😮
thanks for teaching me 😊
In their installation manual, they explicitly state not to mount these on the top or the bottom of a container but in the center of a side surface.
It’s small enough this wouldn’t vary much throughout the space
Gasses don't stratify at room temp, the molecules are bouncing around too fast and stay mixed.
Maybe combining a bag of desiccants and the device would combine the best of both worlds, it can absorb a lot of moisture in a short time, and over longer timespans dry the desiccants out again..
there are hybrid dehumidifiers that use these things to dry the desiccant.
You'll just end up drying the desiccant. As the RH gets low enough, the desiccant will start losing water as well. Same effect as he had with the filament giving off water over time.
@@dentonator2010Yeah, thats the goal
Love your content. You don't just show off useless prints you made. Really love the effort in all your videos.
I appreciate that!
Nice video, one thing to add: Desicant is well capable of archiving humidities of 0-1%, but only when regenerated. In order to regenerate the material heat in the oven for 3h at 130 - 150°C. It is necessary to shake the desicant several times during regeneration or the regeneration will fail. For drying polymers you need to keep the humidity below 5%. This requires you to regenerate the desicant a lot. Usually you place your parts directly into the drybox from the packaging. Also: Any cardboard packaging has a hillariously high water absorption.
No, you're incorrect and even prove that to yourself in your own writing. It is NOT well capable.
If anything at all it's very poorly capable of achieving a low humidity at all.
And that doesn't even include the efforts in terms of manual labor required, additional sanitized equipment necessary (like a dedicated drying oven) and the absurd power consumption.
Also how many people even own equipment capable of measuring humidity of 0-1%? Let me tell you, it's about 0-1% of the 3d printing community.
You say this yourself, extended efforts of regenerating the desiccant would be required. Compatibility with materials used in spools (like cardboard) is minimal.
So wasn't that exactly the point of the video? It may be possible to achieve it with desiccant, but it's nearly impossible to maintain.
So no, desiccant is NOT well capable at all in my and your opinion. 😉
Skipping the antagonizing: You are almost correct, equipment capable of measuring 0-1% humidity is on amazon for about 15 bucks. You need 5% or less for most polyamides, so it is irrelevant whether this thing has a precision of 1% or 2%. Also: Regenerating the stuff is not that hard: I have it in steel containers, just put in oven for 2h and rotate ever 20 min every 3 Month or so, its not difficult. Again, that is almost the same thing you said, just polite and civilized.
Only takes a couple minutes in the microwave oven
Didnt know that, thank you! Albeit, i'll probably not put my stainless steel mesh desicant container into the microwave.
I have no problem to keep several boxes of filament below 10% humidity with desicant that I regenerate when the humidity in the boxes rises.
People without practical experience should refrain from lecturing people with actual experience.
I've had the equilibrium debate a few times and people insist that a dry box will not dry filament, only keep it dry.
My argument has been that the whole system must, according to Newton, attempt to reach equilibrium and therefore if you have patience, dessicant in a dry box MUST dry the filament too.
What would be the source of your claim? I don't see this rooted in any real world physics model we have, like thermodynamics. Could you elaborate what you are talking about? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're trying to say.
A great example to visualize this theory of a general equilibrium in specific systems for yourself are "bromine cubes" (just do a search) - where you have the same element in both a liquid and gas state in the same container.
I believe your assumption would have to be based on a system, where exchange of energy is always free or at least equal.
That however is not the case. A simple example would be the states of matter alone. You could measure yourself that the energy required to change the state or even reach intermediary states, is vastly different from each other. Like liquid to gas or liquid to solid.
A gas transfer requires energy.
So to extract water in a meta state from a solid into gas obviously requires way more energy than may be present in that system.
As we've seen in the video you could manipulate this, by applying heat for example. But that is the entire point of the video, is it not?
So yes, by applying enough external energy (e.g. by continuously replacing desiccant) in a completely sealed system you CAN "dry" filament. However, it will not be a completely equal state as due to the laws of energy conservation the TOTAL energy in a system has to remain CONSTANT.
So if there is ACTIVE work needed to be done (e.g. to "move" water molecules), this would only be achievable if we add EXTERNAL energy to overcome RESISTANCE and INEFFICIENCIES in the process. If you could make this work in any other scenario, you just invented the perpetuum mobile.
@@kontoname You have just stated my point. It would take time but in due course it would even out. Input of energy comes by absorbing heat. You say we have to consider the total system and that includes the environment outside the box, which can provide the heat needed
@@kontoname it's just vapour pressure. Keep the vapour pressure (humidity) low enough and the water will continue to vapourise. If you constantly remove vapour, you constantly allow for more vapourisation
@@NickBR57 yes and no, it depends on how much energy is needed to get the water out of the filament. If the surrounding air temperature is not enough you can wait for forever.
a vacuum box will keep it dry as well. Together they might be perfect. Vacuum boils off the water, and this removes it.
Convection for the win. An interesting technology. My level of failed prints dropped enormously by storing filament in air tight containers, dry before use, then place the filament in a dry box while printing. Anything you can do to protect the material from moisture is a win!
I keep mine in the packaging until use, then straight into the dry box after printing. That seems to work well enough, the filament I get is well packaged and pre-dried it seems (mostly Prusament, Real, Colorfabb). I have a dryer in case a spool turns out to be problematic, but I rarely need it.
I keep my dry box at 15-20% RH, which is plenty dry. I use 2 microwave-able regenerative drying packs I got from an automotive store; they do the job, they do need frequent regenerating, but that only takes a few minutes in the microwave.
You might be able to clean up the plots by plotting the dew point or moisture content of the air (mg/m3) instead of RH%. This isn't perfect since the temperature shifts the equilibrium a bit with the polymers but better captures the actual moisture in the air.
❤ @12:46 😂😂 nice view
🤣
😳😳
You beat me to it 😂😂😂, @CNCKitchen this video needs a PG13 rating
Oh no
Maybe he has a side job as a plumber :)
I'm glad to see you revisit this amazing technology! Some thoughts:
1. I noticed the potential for oxygen buildup right away. Fortunately, there are *many* materials that work as oxygen absorbers that are relatively cheap. For larger scales, 'oxygen concentrators' could be used to capture the extra.
2. For more utility, the SSDH could be built into a movable module that mounts to the _outside_ of a container and alerts you when the humidity has dropped sufficiently. At that point, you can seal the container and move the SSDH to another one. That way, you could prep multiple containers for long-term storage/printing directly from the container/etc. without needing to but a separate SSDH for each container.
3. I can see this being *INCREDIBLY* helpful and economical for those who--for example--use 5kg/10kg spools of things like nylon or large bins of pellets. (Post active drying, of course!)
4. I can now see the attractiveness of metal spools, as they _can't_ absorb moisture.
5. As high vacuum can help pull out moisture even faster, can you experiment with using a microcontroller with an induction burner to heat a vacuum vessel? (I'm assuming that the seal will be made of silicone.)
Cheers!
On the contrary, metal spools can and would still absorb moisture. This is why when doing a lot of metal work, preheating the metal to evaporate out moisture is important for quality of weld connections and other structural factors. If you look at sheet steel for example and apply even a small amount of heat you will see the surface darken, as that trapped moisture is forced to the surface to evaporate. Metal is still a porous material.
@@MattWeber "On the contrary, metal spools can and would still absorb moisture."
Hmmm... Good point. The next logical question would be "How much more or less water would plastic spools absorb in comparison to metal ones."
According to rosahl, the O2 concentration goes up by 1% in the enclosure. I‘d say that’s not enough to get me worried 😉
What worries me slightly more is that they say the membrane deteriorates over time with a half time of 5 years at an ambient temperature of 18°, faster when warmer and slower when cooler.
Assuming that the SSHD needs replacement every 4 years if run in a normal workshop/office to keep up the performance, my guess is that you would have to compare that to the costs of desiccant over the same period.
@cnckitchen: What’s your opinion on that Stefan?
I almost never have issues with PLA or PETG in my area. I have a 12x12 shed with electricity, insulation, and drywall where all of my printers except for my Prusa (it's quiet enough to be inside) live. I am in a high desert, so the maximum humidity we ever really see is ~50% and indoors it is much lower. There are months where you have to use a humidifier in your bedroom while you sleep to avoid nosebleeds. I genuinely have empathy for how much people seem to struggle with keeping their filament dry. I've only had issues with it ONCE. Last year we had a VERY wet winter, and one of the windows in the shed had blown a seal and I didn't notice it. My PETG was sputtering and popping. I just dealt with the reduced quality and when summer came, it dried back out.
Connecting this to vacuum pump might be good idea. Getting even near perfect vacuum incredibly hard but can draw most moisture out without heating and can work faster. Getting partial vacuum but that air is very dry could speed up whole process compared to just dry air
Adding some silca inside as well
Believe I have seen a video on this; apparently didn't work well. One issue is that the absorbed water needs heat energy to break the attraction to the plastic filament, and without air convection that's only supplied by radiation and conduction through quite long, poorly thermally conductive paths in plastic (filament).
After watching all sort of channels, the only one I still watch regularly is yours. The way you explain everything, the overall quality and ideas you come up with are just top-notch!
I am very much looking forward to the dessicant comparison video. I did a lot of research when i was looking for a good way to store my large collection. I ended up settling on activated alumina. I believe I made that decision based on price, how low it can bring humidity, and ease of recharging. I can't wait to see the results of your testing!
This is next level . Exactly what we need in the community . Thank you !
Relative humidity is a function of temperature and absolute humidity as hotter air can hold more moisture than cold. The absolute humidity was likely dropping smoothly in the full dry box test without fluctuations.
Yeah, the bumps in the curves could just be from relative humidity changing due to temp changes. Doesn't mean that more H2O molecules evaporated from the spools.
I mainly print PLA, PETG and a bit of TPU. I have a heating drying box, but I really rarely have to use it and get perfect prints off of my Prusa MK4 and MK3S+ 😊
For about 6 years, I've been using an Eva-dry E-333 Renewable dehumidifier in my filament storage box and it works great. For drying filament like nylon and PETG (which I very rarely need to do), i use a food dehydrator.
Extremely thorough testing, thank you for your hard work sir
Of all the content on CZcams, I am most excited to see a new video from this channel.
I love the experiments and the pathfinding you do for the entire 3D printing community.
Interesting 👍😊
Be aware: Moist air is lighter (‼️) than dry air and therefore rises to the top. Oxygen is heavier than dry air and sinks to the bottom.
So together… without continuous movement of the air inside the box, the placement of dehumidifier may be very important for the outcome.
That's what I wanted to say. But no only oxygen, nitrogen too. Humidifier must be placed at top of a box, if without air curculation inside.
Yeeees!!!! I bought my husband a bambulab printer. I was looking for a dehumidifier as a following gift, but I could only find ones that were passive(silica gel) or didn't seem good enough for their cost. I was considering modifying a food dehumidifier. I'm excited for this video!!!
Today I finished building a PID controlled dehumidifier using an EliteGourmet food dehydrator and an SSR. I haven't seen ANYONE on the internet with even a remotely similar idea...until this was uploaded. I can't wait to watch this to see if Stefan has thought of something I havent!
Love your content. You're contributions to this field and this community are huge and you a true pioneer in 3d printing and manufacturing additives
Shoutouts to BigClive! That video’s where I learned about these devices as well!
i saw the same Big Clive video and thought about doing this, i just wasn't able to find the solid state dehumidifiers. kept looking for the wrong thing, like electric dehumidifier. Great job and thanks for everything you do for the community.
Yeah, no idea how we can get our hands on these elements..
Every time I see a new Cnc kitchen vid I get excited
Hope you enjoy!
@@CNCKitchen oh I will
Same!
Well dang, I was getting excited, even though I knew it would be a fat price tag, but that is a bit much.
Still, if this could work in a large filament storage bin I could see it being worth picking up a single unit for the purpose of storage and just pulling out my filament when needed.
Great video. Lovely testing.
> I was getting excited,
You saw it too? 12:46
Yea he REALLY buried the cost factor. At €169 that’s something that needs to be mentioned closer to the start of the video because it reshapes how you view the test results-Silica gel does a LOT for your money in comparison.
@@MrMartinSchou"LOL"!!! 😂
This is great information. I hope to build some filament storage modules in the future.
I have already designed a filament holder to put in my planner boxes. It holder has a space in front to place test prints and a place for a information tag.
I'm so glad you made this video. I live n a Coastal Community where the humidity 60 - 100% humidity. It's a serious issue and for me this solution seems to be the only solution despite the initial cost. Constantly heating up the filament degrades the filament no question. Silica beads are a huge pain in the a$s to manage plus somewhat expensive. To me, despite the initial cost, this is the best solution outside of a professional drying cabinet. So now I'm weighing the electricity cost of a professional cabinet or using something like this with the filament changer.nope I've convinced myself.
You raise a great question about durability though especially with the topic of microscopic plastics on the rise. Since there is movement in the filament changer there will be tiny bits of debris. If you were to add a fan to the panel it would need a pre filter to prevent premature degradation.
iv never heard of such a device.
It seems like quite a promising method for this kind of thing.
I am glad you addressed the increased oxygen concentration in the AMS. Higher O2 concentration and organic polymers is not a good combination. Did you try putting an O2 sensor into the AMS?
Air actually don't contains a lot of water. Even at 25C@100%RH , the water vapor only takes up about 3% of total air mass when oxygen takes up 20%. Using the ambient air condition in the video which is 20C@30%RH, the water vapor is only about 0.4% of total air mass. Assuming the container is sealed it won't change the O2 concentration by much.
Not yet, thinking about getting one.
Not just oxygen, but I'm sure the unit generates O3. Ozone certainly would degrade polymers.
@@CNCKitchen I am guessing, if you open the AMS once a week to change/replace filament spools it wouldn't be a problem. On the other hand, if you have an AMS you don't open for a couple of months the increase O2 concentration could be significant. The solid-state dehumidifier is very cool technology.
@@Ojref1 That is a valid concern, turns out someone did a related research before, your can search for this on google: A Note on the Evaluation of a Solid-State Air Drier
by Jeffrey P. Maish (2005). It raises the ozone concentration in a container by about 10.5ppb, initially sealed at 25% 90%RH. That is a noticeable difference but I doubt it will degrade the filaments though.
I was about to make this one years ago equally when I saw BigClive... but when I looked around for the part found it expensive for my budget and I also lacked the required resources to make this properly with a transparent container... glad to see that you've made one even if right now most of the scene moved from PLA moisture problems...
Hi Stefan, maybe you can try using a fan to circulate the air so I dry my silica and filaments by closing the hot bed of my printer and it greatly speeds up the drying times.
We are next to the Rio de la Plata and the humidity is almost 90% so it is something that we have to do often the humidity kills us
a big hug from Temperley, Buenos Aires, Argentina
I'll definitely try that!
@CHZ-Tec
I moved for a few months to Cambodia to work for a NGO. here I teach two workers how to use the 3D-Printer. do you have any tipps for when the rainy season starts. or just tipps in general.
@@jonathankohn8522 build dry boxes and print directly from them. Do as little as possible to prevent opening them unnecessarily, since it will immediately undo any drying you have done since the last time it was opened.
I live in Colorado so I do not care one bit about drying my filament, but still love to watch your videos. The humidity here routinely is in the 5% range 😂. And we have a whole house humidifier rather than a dehumidifier.
This IS the solution : everybody should move to Colorado. Or Sahara maybe 😂
From Arizona here... I feel you
Depends on where you do your printing.
If there is a humidifier in your house, and your filament is in the house (perhaps not?)...
@@ericpascual8913 That point does have another big pro argument: solar energy! So our hobby would get much more co2 neutral, too 😄
Swamp coolers work better as far as I am concerned.
when you release a video it's always super interesting, amazing work as always.
I think the real place for this is in addition to desiccant. The desiccant gets it fairly dry, and the membrane gets it even dryer, and also recharges the desiccant over time. You can also add a door to the outside of the housing to prevent moisture getting in when it's off.
I made a box in which I keep an incandescent light bulb on (when needed) with a slotted shelf on the bottom on top of a water container. My desiccant media of choice is Calcium Chloride (CaCl2), after it becomes a brine solution, I just boil it off. I believe you can also do the same with silica gel, putting it inside an oven in a baking tray, but if I'm not mistaken, the amount of water per volume or weight that CaCl2 can absorb is higher than that of Silica Gel.
And honestly, I can't remember the last time I turned the lightbulb on, I think it isn't needed.
Yes you can dry SilicaGel in a oven. In summertime I use a DIY solar dryer. In winter time I dry my SIlicaGel when my oven is hot anyways.
Some folks use even microwave ovens... not sure about this.
@@michaegi4717 Microwave ovens are just ovens with a microwave function, doesn't mean they are using the microwave setting though.
I have a similar setup; 75 W incandescent rough service bulb + PC fan in a 5 Gal bucket. Can confirm that this is the best bang/buck method. I don't use decicant, I just use the light, convection and heat do the rest.
Cautionary: CaCl (sidewalk deicer salt/rock salt) is quite corrosive, especially as brine. Use only non-metal container for your brine catch tray
@@ErikRedbeard You can dry silica gel in a microwave, but it's very easy to overheat the gel since there is no way to regulate the temperature and it doesn't heat evenly. If you are careful, you can dry it a few times before it's trash. With an oven, you can dry silica gel hundreds of times.
I've honestly thought about doing this for years, but when these first came out you couldnt source them and the one i read about was tiny and designed for like trail cameras or something small. Time to revisit this!
Oh man you have the greatest ideas and make the coolest experiments - very thorough and educating! Never stop being you! This is a very interesting project... and I just bought an extra dehumidifier so now I have 2 - but I think I want to replicate what you have done here, for a more effective dry box for storage.
As always solid data and quick presentation with positive attitude ...
Thanks for engineering level of content ....
Very interesting video and perhaps something to watch for in the future for this kind of drying. Currently i have been using the Slice Engineering Desiccant and it works very well.
THank you for finding this. I am going to build a dry box using them.
Well done, Stefan!
This is a great work
Yet, it’s the best I’ve seen
I've been designing my own dehumidifier for quite a while now and I think this could definitely be an interesting technique to look at. Thanks for sharing Stefan!
One thing you might want to do differently than @CNC Kitchen is to have the airflow go into the box. This "dehumidifier" will create no water but instead splits the water to hydrogen and oxygen. likely be faster and safer to flow the dehumidified air into the box pushing out all the moisture.This will not be pure hydrogen as you will be creating positive pressure in the box with a fan. The dehumidifier is acting as more of a filter to break down water to reduce humidity. Afterall, who wants a box full of flammable oxygen lol
@@acters124 I would be curious just how much it actually increases the oxygen amount. If its just 1-2% its likely not an issue as air on average is already roughly 21% oxygen, but if its like 5+ that would be concerning. All my googling was able to find is according to OSHA if other combustible gases are present its not allowed to have excess of 23.5% oxygen.
@@Awrethien I would imagine that it would be roughly equivalent to the proportional mass of the water in the air.
Amazing work, mate!
Didn't know these existed, great to know! I think the power usage might relagate these to on-printer active use dry boxes.
Even if not for drying filament, it can have other applications. So good to know about this cool product. 👍
I would love to know if oven “reactivated” silica performs as well as fresh new silica or if it slowly gets worse.
Silica gel works as well as new and barely degrades when regenerated. One type of dehumidifier uses a desiccant wheel with embedded silica gel that is continuously cycled between adsorption and regeneration and those wheels last for years before they needs to be replaced.
Yep, it does not degrade when regenerated at ~140°C
@@BarsMonsterI’d love to see some data on its longevity. I just bought my first 3D printer so I don’t know yet.
Very cool. I would still just go with a solution like dry tote: recharging those packs take 3 minutes in a microwave at 80% duty. Assuming a 1200W microwave, it takes as much power as running the solid state dehumidifier for 15 hours. I only need to charge the bags once a month, but normally charge once a week for reliability. That is 10% of the power needed and the bags are relatively easy to replace.
1200W microwave!??!? Never seen that power! Standard in my country is like... 800W :P
@@Megamannen 1200W microwaves are common in North America. They’re bigger, which is really handy so you can use large plates.
YESSS this is so perfect! i hope they implement this in V2 of the AMS eventually. it is the future!
this would make the AMS cost like 150$ more per Unit.
I love your videos so much. You discover so many interesting and sometimes useful things. This looks really cool. You should release a dry box product and bring per unit prices down.
Knew exactly how this was going to end, since I loved that bigclive video. It gave me some project ideas as well, only for them to be immediately buried as soon as I saw the price.
Excellent idea and video! Shared it on the Bambu Lab forum.
I got a $30 small food drier from AliExpress and fixed it to a side of IKEA Samla box. Can dry filament, before, after, and during printing just by clicking a button on the thing. Inside there is a big blower fan and a heating element. With cheap enough fans and heating elements, one can turn a dozen Samla boxes into dehymidifiers for filament - no desecant is required really.
Link?
Worth every penny.
I really don't mind paying the early adopter tax, as long as it pays off eventually.
Great Video! I saw that same Big Clive video and wondered the same thing, but yeah, could never get past the price of those things. Really great execution on the build and good to see that it could actually work!
Maybe next try a Peltier to make a solid state condenser that can collect and drain to outside the box? Would be interesting to see how this cheaper solid state alternative stacks up.
Great video! To extend the dry time, you could cover just the dehumidifier with an airtight lid when you turn it off. Might prevent it from reabsorbing moisture.
Talk about timing! I've been working on a way to directly measure relative moisture content in filament. The big drawback is that its readings can only be compared between two samples of a given filament: it can say "sample A has 0.1% more moisture than sample B," but it always needs a per-spool baseline. The design is surprisingly simple, and is sensitive to fractional percentage changes in moisture content using under 3m of filament. The main testing routine has been cutting samples, drying them using the heated bed technique and/or soaking them in water over time. The sensor is verifying out nicely, but the results are basically "Common filaments just don't get that wet."
This mostly matches what Thomas Sandlanderer found in his video: storage doesn't matter much for the most common materials. Nylon is great at absorbing moisture, so it's a good test subject, but only 2 out of 12 spools of PLA seem like they absorb meaningful amounts of moisture. PETG picks up a bit, while ASA has stayed surprisingly dry in my garage.
I'm still figuring out if this is worth developing into a product, but once that's sorted out, I'll be very happy to share the details. (If it's a product, there are a few patents I should get. But once those patents are out there, anyone who does electronics can build their own in an afternoon for ~$25. And if it isn't a product, I'll release all my documentation on the web.)
When I ran a lab with several printers in it, I used to keep at least the nylon spools in vacuum garment bags with small silica packs; they had so little air inside and they worked well as humidity barriers so the packs never needed to be replaced while I was there (just under three years).
This is even better because I could run them off energy harvesting of some type (the noise you hear in your office light ballasts is collectable 🙂) so they could be self contained and portable without having anything extra inside with the materials.
Please tell me more about powering stuff using the noise from the light ballasts.
For the money of those dehumidifers you could just buy and constantly use normal dryers like the Sunlu S4.
But this video clarifies a lot and is extremely helpful!
Thank you very much!
Awesome research, thanks! 👍
Seriously, this is some good stuff.
Something about indicating silica gel that I wonder: the blue/pink it uses looks very similar to the moisture indicators I get shipped with electrical components form digikey. I put that humidity detection card inside of my own dry boxes and wonder if that will work as an indicator if my desiccant doesn't. I don't see why it wouldn't!
Interesting - I think it's cool. I didn't know about these devices, and hope we will see boxes with them come to market.
I would also install a small fan that lets circulate the air in the box just to be sure that the air is evenly dried (as you mentioned at the end of the video). I think that would also increase the dry time at least a little bit.
Super video, danke für dein Research. Cheers, Heiko
Thanks for sharing Stefan! I’m always interested in emerging technologies how they can solve everyday problems. It would be cool to see how we can use old technologies made more efficient/effective using modern methods implemented in an atypical way to improve all various facets of 3d printing
Excellent overview and experiments. If I were implementing something like this, I would probably run a small amount of forced convection on both sides of the membrane.
Now I want one of these for my repbox.
Electrolysis also creates ozone (O3) when used in the open air like these work. The devices are intriguing, but may need venting for long term use depending upon your circumstances. Mixed with a heating and ventillation system, they would probably work very well, but the price would need to significantly drop to around 10% of their current price point.
Yes I did find this video interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it
I try to keep my filament in vacuum bags with desiccant packs. The desiccant is reusable when baked at low temps. Orange when good, brown when need recharged. I hope that it helps. I have a few plastic boxes also, much easier than resealing.
Very nice! Let's hope those dehumidifiers will drop in price over time!
Im gonna be honest, i dont have a 3d printer or will ever own one, but these videos are just entertaining
You can make an attachment for your soldiering iron that can hole a thin but sharp blade that will allow you to cut steady and nice clean cuts while also leaving a smooth final finish on the work material.
You have multiple 3D Printers you want to make this modification onto so giving this method a try will be a good idea especially if you have the cut out of the first printer piece you did this experiment/modification on.
You can use a blade from a box cutter that has multiple breakaway blade pieces to remove the Old blade piece of the remaining blade.
For making the attachment you want something similar to a hand saw that has a removable blade you need to make something close to a hand saw blade holder with a blade slot but only for one box cutter blade.
These things are neat! I absolutly can see lots of applications.
If O2 build up is a concern maybe add some iron fillings! Its a very visual and easy to read oxygen getter!
Although for the price I think the best choice for hobbiest will remain a well sealed steel box and a few packets of the forbiddin snack labeled "Do Not Eat"
What is missing is a test with filament from the dehydrator and then print from a closed box with silca. I have had very good experiences with it.
I just frankensteined a dehydrator, 60 litre sealable storage tub and added a couple of closable vents, it turns on for around 2 hours a day and all my most hygroscopic filament is consistently at between 8-12% humidity in the box. I haven't noticed any degradation in the filament storing it this way, I have 2 year old petg and nylon in there that I used a couple of days ago that printed beautifully. I have measured the temp of the box and at different levels it reached different max temps PETG goes in the 55c area and nylon goes in the hotspot which reaches just under 70c. I also have around 500g of desiccant in the box which keeps the moisture under control between cycles.
Nice info.
I'm curious if you just toss your silica, or if you reuse it? I'd love to see a comparative on reusable silica, to see if it maintains its properties after multiple heat cycles.
Wieder ein super interessantes Video. 👍
@CNC Kitchen thank you so much! So oxygen buildup and the need for convection means the search for the holy grail of effective and maintenance free dehumidifiers continues. I look forward to your next video on the topic!
A fan is pretty maintenance-free, but the oxygen can become problematic depending on the filament (though they say it rises only by about 1% compared to outside)
Intresting technology as well. What I miss is the comparison of costs when we dry out (1kg)color swapping silica gel once or twice in a year in the microwave like I do.
Anyway your tube based filament shelf is a great inspiration 👍 maybe we should rather build a housing around our whole filament storage and put a dehumidifier in there 😉.
Really interesting ide, while i have never worked with anything that is particularly hygroscopic, i always just store my pla /petg in the original bag with the original silica. and have never had an issue, i even added some hydrometers in them and they kept their humidity after a year of just sitting in storage. (after having been used for like a week.)
You got me thinking of TEC based dehumidification.
I use 100% silica cat litter as my dry box desiccant, it is dirt cheap and it works OK I think. Hopefully it is in your upcoming video as well :)
Here you go: czcams.com/video/1JBQMfS4los/video.html
Result: Works, but is alot worse than silica gel balls, its just not made to remove humidity from air.
btw, the plastic your boxes are made of is moisture-permeable too. So if you want ultimate low humidity, use metal or glass (covering a plastic box with aluminium tape seems to help quite a bit)
finaly! You are the king of 3D printerz! Danke schön ❤ Ich liebe Sie 😂
Great video. Cant wait to see the next on on Desicant!
10% RH is an average winter day here in Colorado. Many hygrometers bottom out at 15% lol. I actually run a steam humidifier to get humidity up to 30-35% in my house so we don’t dry out, spark and crack through the winter! Helped my kids’ eczema when they were younger too.
Pretty awesome. I was wondering if someone was going to install a heating element or 4 heating elements into the AMS, I’m sure working together with this would make it ultimate.
Very nice work Stephan.
An interesting approach for sure; I would like to see it with a solar cell option, and you could really go ham with programming a little environmental measure box to trigger it within set parameters. Personally, I prefer swapping out desiccant beads as a mostly passive option. Color-indicating types make for a quick visual reference, and you can dry them out in the oven quite a few times before needing to change them out for 'virgin' material. With my bead-type storage boxes, I'll also supplement the container with a heating pad designed for reptile cages which you can set up with a timer to only run every so often. Seeing internal measurements at 3.5% RH is not uncommon but totally needed when it comes to injection molding for instance. There's also a few other materials that I've tried in the past, one being super absorbent polymer gel, the other unglazed but fired clay. The clay needs to be rotated in and out slightly more frequently, but it is very effective at transferring moisture if you live somewhere semi-tropical as it's by nature moisture seeking.
I think you did a very good job in testing this new product. However, there might be something say about using one of these and silica gel. The silica gel could be used to quickly remove the moisture and the solid state device could be used to ensure the humidity stays low.
If I were to replace the silica gel in my AMS, I feel the large one would be necessary. But if I were to use solid state as well, I could get away with the smaller one. The smaller one would be easier to place and you could use more than one. This will be an interesting topic going forward.