Upside-Down Printing like on Positron or Kokoni Sota: Tested on a Voron Trident!
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
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The Positron 3D printer and the Kokoni Sota 3D printer go upside-down.
I was curious about that, flipped my Voron Trident upside-down and check-out the differences in performance, printing and more! Possibly non-sense, but worth checking out on a CoreXY printer. Let's see how the Measured Resonances and Input Shaping react to the inversion of the Voron Trident - we also do extreme bridging, a 3D printing Benchmark-Test and of course comparing a 3DBenchy for default and upside-down stance!
Printer used:
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Premium LDO Trident Kit at 3DJake*: tidd.ly/4ckgyMG
Recommended Budget Trident Kit at AliExpress*: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DEF...
STL files used:
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Extreme Bridging Tests: bit.ly/3IBXFXD
Foot Adapter for Upside-Down: bit.ly/3V6fhCF
Videos mentioned:
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Uncle Jessy on Kokoni Sota: • Is this a scam? Kokoni...
Krailyn3D Positron: • A 3D printer unlike an...
*affiliate link
00:00 Intro and sponsor.
02:56 Upside-Down Conversion is Easy.
04:01 Resonances and Inputshaping.
06:24 Printing Tests and Extreme Bridging.
09:07 Verdict on 3D Printing Upside-Down.
#3dprinting #voron #247printing #trident #vtd #additivemanufacturing #diyprinter #diy #diyproject - Věda a technologie
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The main potential advantage is in automation, getting the part to drop off the bed directly into a bin without a complicated mechanism.
Hey 24/7!
I am the designer and creator of the Inverted CoreXY Bed Slinger converison kit! I need a proper name for it I know. Anyway, If you would like to hear a second testimony about printing upside down I have some videos posted to my channel from the last few weeks detailing the inverted printing process and its benefits/design choices. Something to keep in mind about your data; because you flipped the printer and left the majority of the electronics and mass on the traditional bottom of the printer, you actually raised to volatile mass which lead to the more severe vibrations! In printers where you lower the center of moving mass as well as the volatile mass you should see improved vibration measurements. If you would like a kit, I would love to send you one for more testing!
I love getting my cheeks rattled by other men 😩
The Invertron 9000 sounds good to me.
Retnirp D3
@@testboga5991 that even sounds like somthing said in reverso. nice.
AntiGravityPrinter 🙂
I want a positron solely for the portability factor. I travel a lot with large chunks of downtime sprinkled into my trips. Being able to chuck a printer in my suitcase would be huge for my mental health as I tinker when I'm bored. On trips I tend to just watch tv during downtime or eat way too much food. Being able to print on the go would be so cool. On the trips where I'm able to find a makerspace that does day passes, I am MUCH more happy.
Sounds awesome 👍
I would love to see a video of the bridging topic. Really curious to hear your thoughts why the bridging got so worse. 🤯
i think it got worse since gravity is still an issue but when putting the printer upside down it's just making it work less in your favor, what I mean is when the printer is right-side-up, the bridged material just droops down and doesn't collide with anything ( it gets further from the nozzle when drooping, making it not collide and not heat up as much again). when the printer is upside down, the bridging material starts drooping towards the printhead, which makes it drag on the nozzle/heatblock, and it makes the bridged material heat up again when the head is doing another pass of the bridge, since the material is drooping towards the nozzle now, instead of against it. I did not do any reasearch, but im pretty sure that is at least part of what is happening.
A huge Volume bridging test similar to the crazy stairs painting would be very cool!
Heat rises up
Aaaah could make sense that it is due to the heating and cooling
I am curious too.
Bridging could have 3 relatively likely different outcomes.
1. Bridges get pushed back into position, resulting in more accurate bridges/overhangs
2. Bridges sag more, because the heat rises...
3. Sagged bridges/loose filament get caught by the extruder and the print comes off the plate
Yo ngl I love the content u make man because unlike some other people you’re videos are easy to follow, keep this up man!
Thank you very much!
Unlike others he actually cares enough to read his comments. ;)
I think the future of 3d printing is placing the whole machine in a giant gimbal that allows it to be oriented in any direction!
But semi seriously, I wonder how well bridging would work with the machine tilted 90 degrees? If you are trying to bridge gaps that are perfectly vertical you might get actual good results since the first layers will probably not deviate from their intended locations.
Very interesting. Surprised that I've not yet seen a 3D printer that's flipped onto it's side to help with bridging!
What could the possible limitations be? Filament flow wouldn't be affected I think, maybe the additional gravity on the X axis could be a problem (doubt)
Or even a 5 axis system where the 4th and 5th axis are tilting the bed to print any overhangs
What you missed is a speed benchy from both configurations!
I suspect that bridging is solely influenced by cooling, lower down, the part cooling (and bambu aux fan) might interact with the bed surface. I can't imagine the temperature difference of a few degrees to make a big difference in relation to the temperature of the extruded plastic. If that were the case, pre-heating the enclosed build volume would also improve bridging, which might be worth a test.
Thanks for the great video! It would be interesting to see the effects if you have the electronics on the bottom. Will there be next video about that?
Thanks for testing. I was curious about the benefits of printing upside down and i am happy to not have to try it by myself. Thanks for the good explanation 👍
What do you think about the Positron, the Kokoni Sota or Upside-Down printing in general? Please tell me!
I would like to see super volcano hotends used in upside down printers. With gravity at your side retraction is possible regardless of how long the melt zone is. It seems no one who ever tried upside down printing thought of that.
3 completely different topics. One is a printer with very special constraints, one is a Kickstarter scam, and one is a matter of how gravity interacts with printing (bridges, stability of frame, etc.)
it is anyways... the filament results in a low pressure zone and thus pulls the moltn filament back @@marcellofialho677
I think the idea of a foldable printer is quiet unique, though i am not sure if this is a common use case
@@marcellofialho677 I think it's possible rightside up too. I'm using TL extender on VM for a total melt zone length over 40 mm, and retraction works fine. A lot of the old myths came from pre-PA era where everything with retraction was wack from trying & failing to incorporate pressure relief that varied depending on speed (which in turn varied depending on detail resolution).
Great video as usual.
Will there ever be a full release for the 247 beta 2 printer??
a note on the Trident, there is an Inverted electronics mod that makes them more accessible. Instead of flipping the printer over you just have to open the bottom panel.
This should honestly become standard in the next revision. Only thing that changes are 4 printed parts, the din rail brackets and front z stepper mounts
As said in your conclusion, upside down printing was mainly chosen by kralyn3d to limit the bulkiness of the frame as all acceleratig parts are mire or less directly supported by the base, except that and the better view offered to check buildplate adhesion there wasn't lots of difference with normal upside fdm printing
One advantage might be stringing, since the filament won't ooze out of the nozzle when upside down. A stringing test would be interesting!
Only issue is, now it could be oozing into the printhead...
Except for the positron. I feel that upside down printing could only be use full if the print detached it self after printing and thus the printer could start with the next part automatically.
This video is very interesting and makes me wonder about other angles and their impact on bridging. 45 degrees rotated? 90 degrees?
If you park the toolhead at the end of print and allow the bed to completely cool the parts will fall off. Have the "top" panel removed and a shoot below it. When the print cools and falls off the bed. It will fall into the shoot and into a bin. Then you can immediately start a new print without having to manually clear the bed.
I tried this with my 2.4. I switched back to regular after bed started to bend and required a lot more glue otherwise prints would fall. Especially PLA parts.
Why did you get equal input shaper graphs for x and Y? I think the reason for cleaner graphs upside down is because the cable chains and other cables are somewhat taken out of the equation when upside down. They are free in the air and more decoupled from the rest.
One major disadvantage of the upside down is that stringing or failures can damage the toolhead. Also you need quite the good bed adhesion for heavier prints.
I'm curious about this. Probably would see more benefit on tall and thin parts towards the top
Now i want to see a test printing these things on all positive/negative sides.
Imagine a printer rotated in a gimbal that always rotates the printer so that a bridge suffers positive G and the filament is always vertical when extruded!
One last bridging test that could be tested is taller pillars with unblocked bridging to determine whether it was the lower bridges shielding the hotbed from higher bridges or just distance away from hotbed.
So, what about on it's side?
Bridging is vertical, mass on both ends, could be a "best of both worlds" thing. I actually have a few prints with print-in-place features that stack, and I wonder if I could get better results with less parts sticking and lower break free forces if I flipped it upside down now.
Should of done the upside down electronics bay for the Trident. Maybe look at the FT EMS mod on printables but you will have to talk to the Fizzy to adapt it to the 250mm build. He has worked with Old Guy Melts Plastic to develop some already
been wanting to do this ever since I first saw the positron lol
I think printing sideways would be an interest test in addition to upside down.
what about a printer that rotates its position to benefit from the gravitational pull?
(5 axis 3d printing is beeing developed)
Hello 247 printing. I have another idea that you can test. I believe printing upside down can be beneficial for printing high temp materials like ABS. With a shield around the object it can trap hot air and resulting less need of closed chamber printers
Would actually be funny to see if hanging a wall along the edge of the bed could create a hot bubble against the bed. Might even need less power to keep the bed warm.
Have you done a comparison of your voron and ratrig yet?
I love my ratrig so much I haven't even thought of getting a voron but if its better then I might.
I would also love a comparison as both have a different design ethos. In theory the ratrig should beat the vorons in terms of speed due to their structure, bigger belts and lighter toolhead.
What i can already tell you is that a trident is quicker than a 2.4. My trident has roughly 15% higher recommended accelerations than my 2.4 at the same setup. My thoughts on that are that the frame of a trident is simply stiffer as the gantry is structural and not suspended on printed parts
thank you very much for testing it, personally i will stay with the normal orientation tho i believe xD
theres no major advantages and the paranoia of hotend blobs or other drastic failures when it loosens from the print bed... just gets higher 😅
If you do decide to move the electronics to the inverse then you should do a test with all electronics separate and not part of the print chassis.
I do wonder how this would improve speed and quality.
I actually wondered if having a high static mass and low dynamic mass actually dampens acceleration if done right.
The advantage in printing upside-down is not really in the printing itself, but in how you can simplify the design of the printer. That's why Krayln chose to go upside-down - to simplify the structure of everything above the base to make it foldable. I designed this 350mmx350mm large format printer (czcams.com/video/hdju_6XEHZ4/video.htmlsi=Dh0bzsGIzZTzsoCE) with a granite base for stability, but it required only a very minimal structure above the granite slab.
Have you tried zero retraction? Maybe drooping and stringing will be less or gone.
I think having the motion system on the bottom on the bottom of a machine such as the voron is sure to show little to no differences since the frame is so rigid and well built. The point of having it lower down is to negate the need for such a stiff frame in the first place, reducing production costs and complexity, which was clearly explained in the positron video. You should redo this test with a different frame than the Voron
Might be a nice way to do auto part ejection. Cool down the bed and the prints fall thru the printer.
Curious about performance with electronics at the bottom.
Is this the first step to 5 axis printing?
Fantastic video, Albert! Now please flip your Rat Rig V-Core 500 ;)
It’s quite likely that a printer would need to be designed with principle in mind before the real benefits become apparent. For example, since the distance between the moving mass and the foundation would be much shorter for the upside down configuration, stiffening the chassis would be much cheaper (bigger but very short extrusions and braces). Also, it’s really important what table the printer sits on. No point have a sturdy frame on a water bed.
The mechanics in the Voron Trident (and many other printers) may depend on gravity to work. Backlash in drive screws in the Z direction could be affected, as well as loading on the motors. 3D printing upside down on a build plate isn't a crazy idea, Resin printers operate in this way, so FTM printers should be capable of this.
One thing though, depending on the filament used, you might need to remove the parts from the bed soon after the print finishes. Othewise, once the bed cools, your print may fall off the bed, and shatter (PLA)!
Could also place a catch tray underneath and call it a feature
Oh shit just realized I'm spamming your comment section!
Well its good for the algorithm. ;)
Future is the resin printer. I think few year and we will have 24k screens and not "toxic " resin. Is just much faster,better and stronger partts in all direction. No vibration and quite.
Maybe for mass production? Theoretically, prints could just fall off the build plate into a bin once the plate has cooled.
Can you print on the Water and upsidedown? For fun. Just asking😅
Upside down printing is an old hat by now. The oldest example i've seen was more than 10 years ago, it was the early wooden Ultimaker that got its Z axis expanded to span 3 or 4 meters in height, but because the printer at home position and toolhead needed to be at a human accessible level, they flipped the printer and simply extended the axis in mid air above the printer. It was of course a joke build to an extent, because if you try to print something as heavy as the height would support, well it'll be trying really hard to either fall off the bed or break it.
Other early upside down experiments were by Lulzbot and James Bruton, Tinkerine and Maker's Muse, and an improvement in overhangs and bridges has not been observed.
But of course we didn't have the tools that you're applying today to judge dynamic performance.
Can you avoid support with upside down printer's?
I guess you need support at different places than a regular printer.
I thought that the whole upside down thing was to make the system portable. At least that's what the Positron was designed for, I've never heard of the KOKONI. I guess people think since resin printers are "upside down" they should make FDM printers the same.
The Kokoni Sota is a kickstarter project. There are some very irate people who backed it since it hasn't delivered; there were wiser people telling them they were being foolish so no sympathy for them. The giant sized red flag was that they never provided any working machines to respected reviewers to try. They did take one to Naomi Wu, but they couldn't get it to work in her presence. All they seemed to have were flashy graphics and claims.
Printing in mineral oil allows unlimited support-less bridging angles.
So the question is: what would the bridging look like with the printer is on the side so that the bridges are vertical oriented.
I might just have to flip my bambu lab p1s and see how it goes XD
I managed to get 75 degree overhangs and significantly better overhangs on the positron than even my P1S with the aux fan. Not sure why your results weren't similarly impressive going upside down.
Try to flip the P1S upside down and repeat with the exact same gcode to see if it’s an upside-down effect or if it’s one of the many other variables in that game when comparing Positron vs. P1S
also imagine a print coming loose on an inverted printer...i wonder what inverted spaghetti looks like. heavier prints pull more and more on their base as they progress which might become an issue in some cases. wiring on top is nice but when the printer is finished and working one doesnt need to access them often.
247 Printing has some catching up to Monika to do if he wants that world record sub 2 minute benchy 😁
247printing wants to go for speed at quality first ☺️ we can add some motors later ;-)
@@247printinghaha, looking forward to that and some friendly competition :D
Did you try printing a tall print to see the difference in performance in printing upside-down for tall prints? I feel like that's where the difference will actually show itself.
im curious if you have tried just a linear rail on the y axis. Of course that would mean you should probably reinforce it with something stiff, but i would like to know how valid it would be, seeing that you may have considered it at some point in time.
Try unfilled nylon. This could stop the oozing.
17k Y axis on a stuck trident? theres something really weird going on, the usual is 5 to 8k
I was surprised to see that as well. I finished my 300mm LDO Trident kit a few months ago and have never seen my input shaper results recommend higher than 6-7k accel even though my resonant frequencies are nearly the same as his (slight over 70hz on my X and slightly under 70hz on Y).
Something odd is going on, he got higher recommended accel for Y than X...
Try sideways, changing orientation based on print
Now install TAP upside down 😂
There is Positron printer.
Welp, someone got the Positron bug lol #UpsideDownGang
Upsidedown is bad concept because gravity. Try print some weights about 5-6 kg and garant adhesion with larger weights...
What’s your secret pla
this was supose to be a video about printing upside down, not about your random printer
...which showcased...printing upside down... ;-)
Whoooooah
flip the bambu
Now do it sideways!
Hello Steve? Someone tortured your machine….
first :)
Congrats 😜
Look up law of headlines and stop promoting vpn trash.