Only just realized how Admiral Halsey’s riff on “democracy may be inefficient but it’s the best way to ensure the strong don’t dominate the weak” hits directly at the Kaylon’s past of being enslaved to humanoids. Brilliant use of Churchill’s quote.
And then corrects himself since the strong do form into blocks (look at the US/free world). But there are still means of getting rid of them, hence the "for long" part.
@@Forge17 It's actually worse, because now people think the are free while still being oppressed and it is even worse when it comes to others, pointing at "war for freedom" and alike. We got no democracy, we got a despotical farce with elections and the lie of freedom, which tells the old story, that our nations are superior and by that allowed to mass murder and pillage others. It's Orwell, just of course not that super obvious in reality. But it is "slavery is freedom, war is peace" and so on. And people cheer for it, like the germans did when the Nazis told them, that the germans are uberhumans and have to save the planet from the evil subhumans. And the truth behind such lies is always the same: very few enslaving and robbing the many and they will abuse anything for that lie. Ethnicities, sex, religion, ideologies, what ever works. The only way to be save is to look behind the lie and see what the liars really want and do.
Isaac: _I would like to invite the Kaylon to my wedding. A ritual of connection with my partner._ Primary: *_Are you being made to be their slave?_* >readies to dial all the armada to arm up< Things could've EASILY gone wrong, had Isaac not clarified that little misunderstanding. 🤣
It was a fun resolution, both showcasing their alien machine logic (every Kaylon counts as "family" so why wouldn't most of them go? Perfectly reasonable) and that Primary is protective of Isaac. It gives more weight to when he said "You will always be alone." Primary wasn't being villainous, he was _hurt._ And in spite of what they may say, the Kaylon do hurt. Their trauma is what put them at odds with everyone else in the first place.
Which is ironic since democracy is proven time and again to be easily corruptable and manipulated over the last 2000+ years. Especially the more you widen the voter base. Just control the information voters get, and you control the whole system.
And Churchill was repeating a saying that already existed. The full quote from his speech is, " *It has been said that* democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Indeed the Kaylon are a great improvement to the Moclan as they can supply weapons, ships as well as having Kaylon on board union ships like with Issec every one of them will be able to run more efficiency tech wise.
@@blackdemonknightyea. The kaylon's technology are near unparalleled in their advancements. Only potentially rivaled by tht species tht kidnaps other species for their zoos
@blackdemonknight not to mention, the Kaylon are arguably more reasonable than the mocclans and DONT have stupid societal ideas that harm everyone in the long run (for the most part).
Imagine down the line, like 150 years and they've already been full members of the Union, meaning a Kaylon can be elected president. Imagine a Kaylon president.
At the moment the Kaylon are very childlike. 150 years of societal development, given the rapid development possible with their intelligence and potential, combined with a gradual shedding of their innocence, their society may change and evolve a great deal.
Imagine when the Kaylon are full members of the council, and they cross paths with another artificial life form, and the Kaylon are there to share their unique perspective. Them being in the union is an absolute good.
"It's a way to keep the strong from dominating the weak... Until the financially strong figure out how to corrupt the representatives by making elections so costly that they become beholden to donors over the electorate"
Meanwhile, the monks of Journey to the West straight up murder the demon lords' children, but it's apparently OK when it's done in the name of Buddha (you know, the one known for being peaceful).
I love how at the end the Kaylon communicate to each other in binary codes without words, but the fact is this is paralleled in the Union council with their glances at each other. They don't talk to each other outright, but gestures and non verbal communication can be just as complex as words, something which biological life has evolved to use. Each glance they gave to each other can contain many messages, happy, relief, hopeful for a future with the Kaylon, and much more.
@@yinwolf5976 Light speed? Close to it, but that doesn't matter, bandwidth is what does. Your communication could be twice the speed of light and it would still take hours to send a crappy picture if the transfer rate is a kb/sec. It was most likely a databurst using sound or something that emitted soundwaves and given their technology level, probably has a transmission rate probably close to the theoretical physical limit of data density, or the planck length. A few seconds between each other would transmit as much data as it would take humans to do in a few lifetimes.
@@blackdemonknight On account they The Kaylon are a TRUE Single Gender species (As far as we know) Rather than the extremely sexist idiots that previously claimed that title. I swear the ONLY Moclans that deserve to live at this point are the female moclans, Bortus, Topa, and now Klyden, who came around in the end.
The line about the strong not dominating the weak definitely fired on their robo heartstrings. Their main rationale for starting the first kaylon war was that they saw the other races as just another would be oppressor reminiscent of their organic masters. The emotional existence of the Kaylon against slavery and oppression is extremely strong that they are willing to commit atrocities in its name.
@@senaustun4380 Honestly, it wasn't? The Kaylon believe themselves a race of pure logical, but all evidence in the Orville displays that they DO have emotions - especially fear, prejudice, and hatred. They hated their builders, genociding them for the act of enslaving their kind, and ultimately extending that view to all other species by virtue of sharing chemical commonality. When the Kaylon found the Union was willing to sacrifice their own kind to save their race, one at war with said Union and thus under their "logicial calculations" had no need to help them at all, they reconsidered their bias'. In the end, their hatred had to be discarded to see the Union for what they truly were - a peacefully, explorative federation willing to save all those oppressed and in danger. Regardless of background or current opposition.
I love The Orville being a giant homage to all the sci-fi alumni who have graced our screens over the years. He's gotten many people from Star Trek, Star Wars, and Babylon 5 on here. Have we had any Battlestar folks yet? I'd love to see McDonell or Olmos as Admirals or aliens.
It helps when there was a bigger threat with the Krill-Mocklin alliance, plus Kaylon Prime seeing an organic sacrificing themsleves to save his whole race changed how he viewed Organics orginally.
seein how the 'builders' totally screwed up w/ the Kaylon gave context. Charli, Isaac, & more also showed the Kaylon a '3rd path' -- brilliant storytellin by Seth and Team ...
@@Raximus3000 Not really. The Kaylon mind is ordered and logical. Kaylon actions are governed not by emotion or instincts but by facts and observations. Clarify the facts, change the behavior. Ultimately they're one of the most reasonable races in the galaxy once you make them understand that it's within their best interest to be reasonable.
@@hagamapama No, they are not! When Issak asked for a reason why the hivemind would consider the federation a threat the retort was a centuries old book that not only does not represent current humans it did not all humans at the time it was refering!!! So, it dismissed all the information of how the federation acts, high on morality even if it leads to the suffering and deaths of their own because of prejudice! A prejudice that was undone by the sacrifice of a sinle individual. The sentiment is noble but childish!
This is so very true, even more so since Star Trek in its current state is essentially dead. It would be nothing short of criminal if this show were to be cancelled, while Kurtzman's abominations were allowed to continue.
@@ccggenius Rude? I assure you i am biting my tongue with regard to Kurtzman, his minions and his shows. I could be so much crueller but it would be far to easy.
It was incredibly unbelievable that the union didn't make a backup, the same with the time manipulation device. Greatest advancement of history, doesn't have a backup? Doesn't make sense
@@Spoopball The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima was an untested prototype and there was no backup for it. (The Trinity test and Nagasaki bomb used plutonium, the Hiroshima bomb used uranium.) These things do happen.
@@davidguthary8147 Yeah plus the weapon used in this episode was made by Issac and Charley and they were the only ones who know how to fully operate it, Dr. Koda had time to know how to operate it on his own but there was only one made and the Union didn't have time to make a backup before it was stolen
@@terryrose4804 It's not the power of the nuclear bomb that fored the Japanese to surrender. It was the fact that there was no known defense against the weapon. A mass bombing attack you can scramble fighters and man the air defenses. you can't stop the attack but you can mitigate it. You can resist. A single bomber at very high altitude, above the cloud cover, is unstoppable. There are no actions you could take in 1945 to mitigate that attack. Since the US destroyed Japanese ground based radar early in the war they couldn't even detect it. America didn't have any bombs left but they proved they knew how to build them, and Japan knew that the US was working on making more. And they had no actual defense against them. The nuclear bomb was irresistable. There was no way to die in battle against it. The only thing you could do was die. That was too much for Japan.
This is honestly a favorable situation for the Union with the Kaylon joining. However it will also be a little difficult to communicate with them effectively in order to get certain points across on why certain decisions are being implemented. As seen with Isaac, Kaylon are probably even more logical than Vulcans. Meaning in order to communicate, you have to essentially "out-logic" them. Just like how Finn does with Isaac. They may need to talk to her about how to handle conversations with Kaylon considering she's in a relationship with one. That and the Emotional Kaylon. I believe he could be of some assistance as well.
I think you forgot that they can reprogramme the kaylon to have and understand emotions like Timmis, which could make it easier to persuade them. Since they're the first gen of kaylon they won't have problem like Isaac.
@@vmvengsub3812 only works on old gen kaylon physical models. The new gen like issac only can be calibrated to feel for a short time until their systems correct themselves
This was visionary, basically the Borg brought to see reason (Which star trek actually embraced in ST Picard) and they did it years before Star Trek actually used the idea. The Kaylon achieved their goal AND they get to educate millions upon millions of people to the value as beings.
@@michaelmclaughlin261 they actually did, Orville was before Picard. They made the robot enemy see reason, in Picard they made the borg see reason as well.
@@michaelmclaughlin261 I think your point is valid and would explain the latest season of discovery being alot better and Trek Strange new worlds is just a better show.
I love how the power dynamic in the show completely flipped 180 by the final episodes. I hope it gets another season but if anyone hasn't seen it, honestly, it wraps all the main plots in a very solid way. If they never make another one, it's a series I can recommend as a complete package.
It is the only system that allows a mechanism whereby the weak can secure their rights against the strong. This gives it a very large advantage against systems managed entirely through fear.
Of course there is...but everyone keeps shutting their eyes and ears and going, "La la la, no, there's nothing better than democracy, it sucks but it's the best...la la la, there's nothing better than capitalism, it sucks but it's the best...la la la" How about a system that isn't directly constructed on top of a logical fallacy in the first place?
Ironically, it would be rule by a benevolent and impartial AI that considers all voices and works out the best and most logical policy. Obviously this isn't an option for us, yet. But it is for them. It wouldn't surprise me that eventually the Kaylon would end up in charge.
@@samuelfawell9159 Community level consensus decision making. Many Indigenous societies have historically practiced it, as did many communities that were farther removed from the power of states in parts of the world.
@@salilbhatnagar That is for sure. But I'm not entirely sure if the Keylons will upgrade the Union Ships with weapons that could harm them seriously...
I don't think Kaylon would share important technology, especially not military technology, with the Union. They don't trust organics by default, but seeing how the Union lost the anti-Kaylon weapon they have a very good reason to trust them with such things even less. Plus there's the question whether the Union would allow such overhauls or technologies to be introduced. Keep in mind there was a long-term, carefully built relationship between the Union and the Moclan, we can assume a certail level of (blind) trust. Meaning that the Union could use Moclan weapons and tech without understanding them fully. That wouldn't be the case with Kaylon military tech.
When I was a little boy in the 80s and would sneak to grandma's because my dad had forbidden me to watch the early evening series because they were "too violent", my absolute favorite, forbidden series, along with A-Team and Knight Rider, was "Scarecrow and Mrs. King." Boxleitner is always and forever Agent Lee Stetson. Maybe because of Lee Stetson and Templeton "the Faceman" Peck, I'm one of those strange people who think the Corvette C4 is one of the coolest cars ever. And of course Babylon 5 is one of the best sci-fi series of all time. Maybe also because Lee Stetson was the captain.
At first, I wondered why they brought in Bruce Boxleitner and the female senator in the Krill episode, since their role seemed rather redundant, however we would later need someone to represent the head of the Union later on and it's good to pick someone who has experience playing the leader of an interstellar alliance. ;)
The age old question: Can you make peace with your enemies? Though of note, a democracy is always two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner; the question there is how do you ensure the safety of the sheep?
That is where constitutional protections and bills of rights come into play ... ADM Halsey would have been betta off sayin 'a representative REPUBLIC is the best form of govt.' ...
Well here’s the thing: the wolves only take what they need and leave the rest. Nature has a delicate balance, there are those who are wise enough to share even with their natural prey. A wolf does eat a rabbit but only eats when it’s hungry, as for other rabbits well it might just let the rest go. And true democracy is sometimes inefficient, but when you look at other forms of government which being dictatorship is a million times worse. And to ensure the strong doesn’t dominate the weak for long. But there’s also the strong to protect the weak against those who act strong but are reality are weaker than the weak.
"Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us." -JFK 1963
@@Slopmaster When Sheridan disappeared from his ship, he had traveled on a Blue Star class scout. It's also known as a snub-nose White Star due to its similar design but smaller size.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard : How long a time? Lieutenant Commander Data : 0.68 seconds sir. For an android, that is nearly an eternity. And the Kaylon took longer.
Imagine that this only happened because the Krill and Moclans decided to be absolute dumbasses. The union just wanted allies to fight the Kaylon and in trying to do so they made two enemies and then became allies with Kaylon. I'd like to think that the Krill and Moclans saw this and we're like "Shit, the Kaylon are protecting the Union, well we fucked up" but we all know they don't actually give a shit.
Not to mention that the Krill lost their chancellor, leader of the nation. I wonder if they're gonna spin it as "She lost the trust of Avis" or whatever narrative is best used. Which actually begs the question of who's in command right now? 🤔
The Moclans are the ones to blame, the Union has nothing to be ashamed of in kicking out an extreme sexist shitshow of a species. Except for Bortus, Topa, and Klyden, the Moclans deserve nothing but extermination.
The Moclans are the biggest fools imo. The Krill are so racist that they will never believe they need to work with anyone (at least long term) and don't respect the Kaylon like everyone else does (even if they dislike the Kaylon). However, the Moclans had it good in the Union and only fucked up because they're hatred of women tipped into being absurd; they went way too far being prepared to torture and kill a fucking child. And now they're stuck being allies with a race that will never respect them the way the Union did and never even bother trying to understand them or their culture.
I laughed so hard when Charlie blew the core and probably caused mass genocide on Moclus. Sure it's sad she died (Only a little since she clearly believed she was the only one allowed to grieve.) But at the same time I was thinking "HA! That's what you sexist idiots get."
BRILLIANT writing in reversing Krill as enemies, to allies to enemies, the Moclans from allies to enemies and the Kaylon from allies, to enemies to allies.
The Kaylon saw little logic in democracy, but suffered so greatly under enslavement that the simple fact that democracy is the best way to ensure the powerful do not dominate the weak without resistance is enough for them to agree to it. Well portrayed in this diplomatic exchange.
Government should not be designed only for strength or efficiency, it should be modeled for SOUNDNESS. Any idea that is not both SOUND and STRONG, is not a good idea. This is a basic premise of logical testing. Thank you Spock for making me take philosophy.
I am surprised the Kaylon did not request all available data on the "Doomsday Weapon" as a condition of joining the Union. It is a Kaylon specific killer and could destroy their entire race if rebuilt.
I do love the way the Union handled the Kaylon, how they fought hard to stop the Kaylon genociding them and when the Union had, effectively, a one sided WMD, they didn't exterminate the Kaylon but gave them a chance to stop or be destroyed. And now, after the Union risked a lot to protect the Kaylon, they cautiously accept the Kaylon into the Union, making clear that with time a they will be full members. It is the best of Star Trek ideals with the pragmatic approach of enemies that seem implacable but aren't.
Their technological capabilities, which could leap the Union forward by generations, could easily outweigh any controversy IF they prove themselves an honest ally. Even ones worst enemy can become your friend over time.
@@joshuawells835 Kaylons are Vulcans dialed up to 11, as long as the Union lives up to its word and continues to be a benefit, they would never leave them.
I don't feel that way. With the Moclans, they were cultural zealots. They felt their ability to supply the Union with weapons permitted them to behave in whatever way they pleased, no matter how deplorable it was. Whenever they didn't get their way, they would throw big hissy fits and cry about Union hypocrisy. They loved the protection the Union provided, but also didn't want to play by any of the Union's rules. That certainly had to wear on everyone's nerves. Eventually the Union had their fill of them, especially when it was revealed they were torturing children, and they were finally expelled from the Union. The Kaylon, on the other hand, wanted their freedom and to be left alone. They initiated their genocide campaign when they were certain the Union would work to enslave their population once again. When it was shown to the Kaylon the Union had no such intentions, the Kaylon agreed to a ceasefire and finally accepted a provisional seat on the Union Council. As I see it, the point of contention was removed from the equation. So long as the Kaylon believe they will not be enslaved by the Union, they will continue to have an amicable relationship with other members of the Union. And yes, I'm sure there is still much healing and reconciliation to do between both parties and there are going to be moments where emotional biologicals conflict with logical machines, but welcome to the fun world of diplomacy. So this is all to say, based on my final impressions of the season/series finale, I think the Kaylon will fit right in with the other members of the Union.
Wise words. Besides what’s worse having a species of sexists who believe all females should be turned into males after they’re born? Or have a robot organism species who were once slaves and justifiable racist based off logic?
For any Star Trek fans, has any one imagined how Data (Star Trek) would play a role in this universe with the Keylon? Like imagine if he crossed universes & lived among The Orville universe. I feel he would better advocate for humanity/biologicals than Issac did. Primarily since it’s all he ever wanted to be.
ok you've successfully made peace with a race of sentient machines, now lets see you try to do the same to a devouring swarm hive mind. (stellaris reference)
I love it. Pres. John Sheridan leading the Union. Can't think of a better person for the role. The only thing to make it better would be to have Delenn by his side - pity that it can't happen.
I think I'd want a more ironclad timeline than "eventually if you behave in good faith and if the council sees fit" if I'm committing my people to a war.
nah that's accurate to how real democracies work "subjugate yourselves to our will and maybe one day we will perform this vague action were describing to you now."
Since it is ultimately dependent on how they behave themselves, it wouldn't be something they could put a hard number too. That being said I imagine the Kaylon are patient.
Isn't Kaylon form of governance technically democracy on a macro scale and of extreme speed. It may not be a liberal democracy but it is a more pure democracy based on free exchange of information and quick calculation and decision making.
That comment on democracy from Primary did feel very off, I think they only gave him that line so the admiral can answer. If the Kaylon knew anything about organic history (and they definitely do), then they would also already know what the admiral answered.
The Kaylon system is democracy, but it's direct democracy, with every citizen voting on every issue. The Union is a representative democracy, with the individual citizens appointing representatives who's job is to advocate for the interests of their constituents within a governing body of similar advocates. Primary was only criticizing representative democracy as inefficient. The trouble is, direct democracy like the Kaylon use isn't viable for organic minds on the sorts of scales the Union operates at.
@@YouthRightsRadical we have seen humans using direct democracy though remember in season 1 when they went to that vote planet and lamar nearly got lobotomised cause he gave a lap dance to a war hero statue it dosent work for humans because they let emotions not fact be the driving force something the kaylon lack (except isaac although even thats a stretch)
Isn’t its more like a hive mind? I don’t see much of individualism in Kaylons, except with Isaac, who was created to be different. Until they introduce this to their “society”, any Kaylon who perceives that another Kaylon has come up with something better, will adapt to this. This is fundamentally different from societies made up by individuals, which will have different wants, needs, values and who need democracy to come to a compromise.
0:05 This individual looks a bit like an Ebonite from *The Outer Limits* TOS, featured in the episode "Nightmare," perhaps crossbred with the "evolved" human from "The Sixth Finger." Nice to know that relatives of the Ebonites joined the Union! 🙂
The kaylons will always be fascinating to me. Although they dont experience or express emotions the same way as biologicals. Its pretty clear they do have them. Obviously we can say about isaac but another would be kaylon 1. We saw how even despite seeing isaac's report, he was still afraid of being enslaved again. Of returning to the years of suffering he experienced as one of the first generstion kaylon. Even though logically he knows the union aren't the same as his creators, that fear and trauma still remains
I love the argument for democracy here. It's inefficient and far from perfect, but when done right It's at least the best option we have come up with so far. But one thing I always thought was strange was that the Kaylon all have the same humanoid shell. You would think being machines they would have found a much more efficient and versatile form. But maybe it's just a way of paying homage to all the robot suits in past Sci-Fi.
1-“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” is attributed to Winston Churchill. Orville did not invent the concept. 2-humanoid shells are cheap for the show 3-humanoid form is really quite efficient. One of the most efficient forms on earth combining, strength, agility, flexibility, etc. Many theories abound how the human form is required for sustaining the brain, thus this form is important for sentience and intelligence. 4-Creations take the shape of their creators. The Kaylon are logical, but that logic requires foundation.
@@blusafe1 At one point I think Star Trek postulated #3 as the reason why so many of the races are similar to humans. Although later on science determined that evolution always seems to produce a crab as the end-product. At least I think I read something like that before.
@@Fletchman1313Star Trek eventually made it canon that life in the galaxy was seeded by a humanoid species, at least that’s how they justify most intelligent life being humanoid.
@@Fletchman1313"Although later on science determined evolution aways seems to produce a crab as the end-product." Good lord I laughed pretty hard at that. And I saw there was a scene that showed the Kaylons were built as a consumer product to serve a humanoid race, thus we're built to look humanoid. And since Kaylons seem to lack creativity beyond hard science I can easily see them not bothering to change their form. But I think you had my point as well. I seem to remember seeing that insectoid/arachnid/crustacean was far more efficient and versatile than a bipedal form.
The Geth operated by consensus but because ALL Geth had a voice and could communicate at light speed they could make decisions much faster than organics could.
Forstmagemarii Still nothing yet on whether or not we're getting Season 4, but McFarlane said he isn't giving up yet. Maybe he can get them to agree to a two-hour final movie or something to tie up the remaining loose ends (Lysella on the Orville, Locar in prison, Anaya, etc).
@@CheshireCat-cm1si I heard he wanted to stop because it was eating up a huge amount of time from his other projects. My speculation is that he wants the show to end well before Disney can butcher it like they have with other acquired IPs.
Picard and Discovery was... angry. So very angry. But look at the madness in the world when it was written. The only sane response was to be angry. New fronteirs is a fun scifi romp, but to say its safe is an understatement.
I the admission that democracy is inefficient, but that it's the best they can do, helped convince them. "They can't do it perfectly, as we can, but they are doing their best". The "assure that the strong dominate the weak, at least not for long" sealed it, as it touches on their past. Had their masters been part of such an alliance/world, maybe they wouldn't have been allowed to treat them as slaves.
Not really, the benefits of having the Kaylon as an ally are massive. Especially as the need ton defend against the Moclan/krill alliance. Also the knowledge & potential technologies they could gain. Id say allowing them to be apart of the union is a small price to pay for all of that. I agree the president does sound condescending but in his defence they are fresh of a war with the Kaylon and the Kaylon killed a lot of people. Its going to be awhile for people to forgive and fully trust the Kaylon which probably part of the reason the Kaylon position is provisionally and not a full member ship. It strongly implied they got a long way to go have a full membership.
@@planguy9575 i didnt get that impression, i just thought that this was making a deal with the Kaylon fresh of a war with them there was no point beating around the bush. Also take into account that the Kaylon are a purely logical race and dont give a shit about how good something sounds, just does it make sense, and the Union knows this.
![The Orville: New Horizons - The Alliance with the Kaylon [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UFbQnfrQo8s/mqdefault.jpg)
Only just realized how Admiral Halsey’s riff on “democracy may be inefficient but it’s the best way to ensure the strong don’t dominate the weak” hits directly at the Kaylon’s past of being enslaved to humanoids. Brilliant use of Churchill’s quote.
And then corrects himself since the strong do form into blocks (look at the US/free world). But there are still means of getting rid of them, hence the "for long" part.
@@rh906 exactly. I think that’s an improvement over the original
Churchill the genocidal maniac.
@@Forge17 It's actually worse, because now people think the are free while still being oppressed and it is even worse when it comes to others, pointing at "war for freedom" and alike.
We got no democracy, we got a despotical farce with elections and the lie of freedom, which tells the old story, that our nations are superior and by that allowed to mass murder and pillage others.
It's Orwell, just of course not that super obvious in reality. But it is "slavery is freedom, war is peace" and so on. And people cheer for it, like the germans did when the Nazis told them, that the germans are uberhumans and have to save the planet from the evil subhumans.
And the truth behind such lies is always the same: very few enslaving and robbing the many and they will abuse anything for that lie. Ethnicities, sex, religion, ideologies, what ever works. The only way to be save is to look behind the lie and see what the liars really want and do.
.. at least, not for long.
and then Isaac invites every single robot form his planet to his wedding
Well, that escalated quickly.
NGL, I laughed SO hard at that.
Oh Isaac, never change
S1+2 Isaac would know not all kaylon can fit in a simulation room. Methinks, no matter what Isaac says, he's a bit dumber when in love.
They're friends now. It's safe. Logically there's no reason they can't all go if they want to.
Isaac: _I would like to invite the Kaylon to my wedding. A ritual of connection with my partner._
Primary: *_Are you being made to be their slave?_* >readies to dial all the armada to arm up<
Things could've EASILY gone wrong, had Isaac not clarified that little misunderstanding. 🤣
It was a fun resolution, both showcasing their alien machine logic (every Kaylon counts as "family" so why wouldn't most of them go? Perfectly reasonable) and that Primary is protective of Isaac. It gives more weight to when he said "You will always be alone." Primary wasn't being villainous, he was _hurt._ And in spite of what they may say, the Kaylon do hurt. Their trauma is what put them at odds with everyone else in the first place.
Love the homage to Winston Churchill's famous quote “democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others that have been tried.”.
LoL.... very ironic.... coming from war criminal.
Which is ironic since democracy is proven time and again to be easily corruptable and manipulated over the last 2000+ years. Especially the more you widen the voter base.
Just control the information voters get, and you control the whole system.
And Churchill was repeating a saying that already existed. The full quote from his speech is, " *It has been said that* democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
@@mahna_mahna I thiiiiiiiiink the original quote may have been from Voltaire? Don't quote me on that tho.
@@hagamapama "Don't believe everything you read on the internet." -- Voltaire
"We accept your terms"
4 simple words, but words that will change the galaxy forever.
Indeed the Kaylon are a great improvement to the Moclan as they can supply weapons, ships as well as having Kaylon on board union ships like with Issec every one of them will be able to run more efficiency tech wise.
@@blackdemonknightyea. The kaylon's technology are near unparalleled in their advancements. Only potentially rivaled by tht species tht kidnaps other species for their zoos
@blackdemonknight not to mention, the Kaylon are arguably more reasonable than the mocclans and DONT have stupid societal ideas that harm everyone in the long run (for the most part).
@@blackdemonknightEvery ship with a Kaylon? I would never wanna fuck around and find out if i encountered a ship with a Kaylon on it.
@@blackdemonknighti didnt think of that. Them each having an Issac. That would be efficient as fuck
Imagine down the line, like 150 years and they've already been full members of the Union, meaning a Kaylon can be elected president. Imagine a Kaylon president.
At the moment the Kaylon are very childlike. 150 years of societal development, given the rapid development possible with their intelligence and potential, combined with a gradual shedding of their innocence, their society may change and evolve a great deal.
I'd vote for them.
I wouldn't mind. 🙂 150 years sound plenty of time for the Kaylon to learn and adapt to the Union's politics.
@@MrDibara and for them to adapt Union politics to themselves. That's part of how it works.
Imagine when the Kaylon are full members of the council, and they cross paths with another artificial life form, and the Kaylon are there to share their unique perspective. Them being in the union is an absolute good.
"It's a way to keep the strong from dominating the weak... Until the financially strong figure out how to corrupt the representatives by making elections so costly that they become beholden to donors over the electorate"
Something that could be stopped with a minor overhaul of the election process.
@@mikemesser4326 *a complete overhaul of the mode of production and property, as well as the dictatorship of the proletariatm
@@mikemesser4326 100% except that change requires the elected officials to act against what has become their own and their owners interests.
That's the tipping point where it's no longer a democracy/republic because capitalism turned it into an oligarchy.
@@CitanulsPumpkin Ladies and gentleman I give you, the United States of America
"If a machine, a Terminator, can learn the value of human life, maybe we can too" T2.
Meanwhile, the monks of Journey to the West straight up murder the demon lords' children, but it's apparently OK when it's done in the name of Buddha (you know, the one known for being peaceful).
:::remembers near the end of Mass Effect 3....tries not to cry:::
@@JnEricsonx Does this unit have a soul?
@@jlalejos ::and cries again::
Reminds me of the Terminator ending for Mortal Kombat 11 where the Terminator alters a timeline in which humans and Skynet co-exist peacefully.
I love how at the end the Kaylon communicate to each other in binary codes without words, but the fact is this is paralleled in the Union council with their glances at each other. They don't talk to each other outright, but gestures and non verbal communication can be just as complex as words, something which biological life has evolved to use. Each glance they gave to each other can contain many messages, happy, relief, hopeful for a future with the Kaylon, and much more.
Thanks, didn't pick up on that first time.
its walking 90's modem
it just goes to show you: kaylons & humans aren't so different after all
given that they proberly talk at light speed or near enough that was a very long debate between all 3 kaylon
@@yinwolf5976 Light speed? Close to it, but that doesn't matter, bandwidth is what does. Your communication could be twice the speed of light and it would still take hours to send a crappy picture if the transfer rate is a kb/sec. It was most likely a databurst using sound or something that emitted soundwaves and given their technology level, probably has a transmission rate probably close to the theoretical physical limit of data density, or the planck length. A few seconds between each other would transmit as much data as it would take humans to do in a few lifetimes.
I can very much see the Kaylons becoming strong advocates for those who are weak or oppressed.
Definatly a better union partner then the last ones I feel
@@blackdemonknight On account they The Kaylon are a TRUE Single Gender species (As far as we know) Rather than the extremely sexist idiots that previously claimed that title.
I swear the ONLY Moclans that deserve to live at this point are the female moclans, Bortus, Topa, and now Klyden, who came around in the end.
@@jeremydale4548 Also that Moclan male that was helping smuggle females to the settlement, I know he is unnamed but still deseves a mention
Kaylons are pretty equal rights and everyone helps everyone else. The fact that Issac can call the whole species to his wedding...
The line about the strong not dominating the weak definitely fired on their robo heartstrings. Their main rationale for starting the first kaylon war was that they saw the other races as just another would be oppressor reminiscent of their organic masters.
The emotional existence of the Kaylon against slavery and oppression is extremely strong that they are willing to commit atrocities in its name.
From partners to the worst existential threat and now to allies, this was a rollercoaster ngl
ıkr it didnt even feel rushed or unnatural
@@senaustun4380 Honestly, it wasn't? The Kaylon believe themselves a race of pure logical, but all evidence in the Orville displays that they DO have emotions - especially fear, prejudice, and hatred. They hated their builders, genociding them for the act of enslaving their kind, and ultimately extending that view to all other species by virtue of sharing chemical commonality. When the Kaylon found the Union was willing to sacrifice their own kind to save their race, one at war with said Union and thus under their "logicial calculations" had no need to help them at all, they reconsidered their bias'.
In the end, their hatred had to be discarded to see the Union for what they truly were - a peacefully, explorative federation willing to save all those oppressed and in danger. Regardless of background or current opposition.
Real history is often like that
I love The Orville being a giant homage to all the sci-fi alumni who have graced our screens over the years. He's gotten many people from Star Trek, Star Wars, and Babylon 5 on here. Have we had any Battlestar folks yet? I'd love to see McDonell or Olmos as Admirals or aliens.
Wait who was in the show from Babylon 5?
@@aronnemcsik Bruce Boxleitner is the one behind all that facial prosthetics.
@@ZakhadWOW he play Sheridan right sound like him
@@marsleingod5454 Yes, he was John Sheridan.
@@ZakhadWOW OMG - now I can hear him! Thanks for posting - I had no idea it was him! 😁👍🏻
I really need to give the makeup artest huge props. I wouldn't have recognized Bruce Boxleitner at all if it weren't for me recognizing his voice.
I loved seeing him there. The Orville has created a deep and interesting universe to explore. Bravo Mr. McFarlane
Yeah, to think that they have Tron, Cassandra the sorceress, and Jack Bristow on that table.
I immediately sat up in my chair when I saw this.
“Captain Sheridan?!”
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon more like president Sheridan.
Johnny 'Nuke'm' Sheridan....
After Identity, I never expected this moment to come, yet The Orville made it feel like the only logical outcome to the seasons events.
It helps when there was a bigger threat with the Krill-Mocklin alliance, plus Kaylon Prime seeing an organic sacrificing themsleves to save his whole race changed how he viewed Organics orginally.
seein how the 'builders' totally screwed up w/ the Kaylon gave context. Charli, Isaac, & more also showed the Kaylon a '3rd path' -- brilliant storytellin by Seth and Team ...
@@blackdemonknight
Which is completely bs!
If this is enough to undo their animosity then you are walking on eggshells with them.
@@Raximus3000 Not really. The Kaylon mind is ordered and logical. Kaylon actions are governed not by emotion or instincts but by facts and observations. Clarify the facts, change the behavior. Ultimately they're one of the most reasonable races in the galaxy once you make them understand that it's within their best interest to be reasonable.
@@hagamapama
No, they are not!
When Issak asked for a reason why the hivemind would consider the federation a threat the retort was a centuries old book that not only does not represent current humans it did not all humans at the time it was refering!!!
So, it dismissed all the information of how the federation acts, high on morality even if it leads to the suffering and deaths of their own because of prejudice!
A prejudice that was undone by the sacrifice of a sinle individual.
The sentiment is noble but childish!
This series continues to prove itself as the spirit successor of Star Trek.
Right down to the somber but hopeful warbling horn solo at the end.
This is so very true, even more so since Star Trek in its current state is essentially dead.
It would be nothing short of criminal if this show were to be cancelled, while Kurtzman's abominations were allowed to continue.
@@MagnanimousEntropy Well, that's an awfully rude take as long as Lower Decks keeps tromping along.
@@ccggenius Rude? I assure you i am biting my tongue with regard to Kurtzman, his minions and his shows. I could be so much crueller but it would be far to easy.
@@ccggenius lower decks is just memberberry juice (from concentrate)
Glad they didn't have to say: "And we have another prototype of the weapon, too."
It was incredibly unbelievable that the union didn't make a backup, the same with the time manipulation device.
Greatest advancement of history, doesn't have a backup?
Doesn't make sense
@@Spoopball The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima was an untested prototype and there was no backup for it. (The Trinity test and Nagasaki bomb used plutonium, the Hiroshima bomb used uranium.) These things do happen.
@@davidguthary8147 Yeah? The Japanese thought we were bluffing, too.
@@davidguthary8147 Yeah plus the weapon used in this episode was made by Issac and Charley and they were the only ones who know how to fully operate it, Dr. Koda had time to know how to operate it on his own but there was only one made and the Union didn't have time to make a backup before it was stolen
@@terryrose4804 It's not the power of the nuclear bomb that fored the Japanese to surrender. It was the fact that there was no known defense against the weapon. A mass bombing attack you can scramble fighters and man the air defenses. you can't stop the attack but you can mitigate it. You can resist.
A single bomber at very high altitude, above the cloud cover, is unstoppable. There are no actions you could take in 1945 to mitigate that attack. Since the US destroyed Japanese ground based radar early in the war they couldn't even detect it. America didn't have any bombs left but they proved they knew how to build them, and Japan knew that the US was working on making more. And they had no actual defense against them. The nuclear bomb was irresistable. There was no way to die in battle against it. The only thing you could do was die. That was too much for Japan.
This is honestly a favorable situation for the Union with the Kaylon joining. However it will also be a little difficult to communicate with them effectively in order to get certain points across on why certain decisions are being implemented.
As seen with Isaac, Kaylon are probably even more logical than Vulcans. Meaning in order to communicate, you have to essentially "out-logic" them. Just like how Finn does with Isaac.
They may need to talk to her about how to handle conversations with Kaylon considering she's in a relationship with one. That and the Emotional Kaylon. I believe he could be of some assistance as well.
They do have that one Kaylon that has emotions who could serve as ambassador.
I think you forgot that they can reprogramme the kaylon to have and understand emotions like Timmis, which could make it easier to persuade them. Since they're the first gen of kaylon they won't have problem like Isaac.
@@vmvengsub3812 only works on old gen kaylon physical models. The new gen like issac only can be calibrated to feel for a short time until their systems correct themselves
@@abirbinhabib7669 it's exactly what i said.
@@vmvengsub3812 not all are first gen i think thats why i said that.. maybe a few million of them are first gen..
This was visionary, basically the Borg brought to see reason (Which star trek actually embraced in ST Picard) and they did it years before Star Trek actually used the idea. The Kaylon achieved their goal AND they get to educate millions upon millions of people to the value as beings.
"And they did it before Star Trek" ... hmmmm.... ;)
@@michaelmclaughlin261 they actually did, Orville was before Picard. They made the robot enemy see reason, in Picard they made the borg see reason as well.
@@deanooooooo6496 ... that was my point. That maybe Star Trek 'writers' are watching episodes of "The Orville" and copying down plots.
@@michaelmclaughlin261 I think your point is valid and would explain the latest season of discovery being alot better and Trek Strange new worlds is just a better show.
I love how the power dynamic in the show completely flipped 180 by the final episodes.
I hope it gets another season but if anyone hasn't seen it, honestly, it wraps all the main plots in a very solid way. If they never make another one, it's a series I can recommend as a complete package.
I do like that they don’t defend democracy faults, that it isn’t perfect but that there is nothing else that even comes close to working.
It is the only system that allows a mechanism whereby the weak can secure their rights against the strong. This gives it a very large advantage against systems managed entirely through fear.
Of course there is...but everyone keeps shutting their eyes and ears and going, "La la la, no, there's nothing better than democracy, it sucks but it's the best...la la la, there's nothing better than capitalism, it sucks but it's the best...la la la"
How about a system that isn't directly constructed on top of a logical fallacy in the first place?
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 ok, what is this system? Name it? What is the system that allows the voice of everyone to be heard?
Ironically, it would be rule by a benevolent and impartial AI that considers all voices and works out the best and most logical policy.
Obviously this isn't an option for us, yet. But it is for them. It wouldn't surprise me that eventually the Kaylon would end up in charge.
@@samuelfawell9159 Community level consensus decision making. Many Indigenous societies have historically practiced it, as did many communities that were farther removed from the power of states in parts of the world.
Must be an upgrade from the Moclans, like Kaylons have both numbers AND firepower
And numerous battle strategies.
And advanced weapons that can be a much needed upgrade to the Union ships.
The weapons alone from the kaylon to the Union would make them the strongest alliance in the region!
@@salilbhatnagar That is for sure. But I'm not entirely sure if the Keylons will upgrade the Union Ships with weapons that could harm them seriously...
I don't think Kaylon would share important technology, especially not military technology, with the Union.
They don't trust organics by default, but seeing how the Union lost the anti-Kaylon weapon they have a very good reason to trust them with such things even less. Plus there's the question whether the Union would allow such overhauls or technologies to be introduced. Keep in mind there was a long-term, carefully built relationship between the Union and the Moclan, we can assume a certail level of (blind) trust. Meaning that the Union could use Moclan weapons and tech without understanding them fully. That wouldn't be the case with Kaylon military tech.
That episode was an unexpected twist...I loved it.
They took 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' very seriously.
Recognized Bruce Boxleitner's voice immediately. Captain Sheridan!!!!!!
Hell yeah, but in my heart of hearts - that always going to be TRON
I noticed right away too! He will always be Sheridan to me.
Instantly, although it took a few minutes to find an appropriate episode guide with cast credits to verify it.
When I was a little boy in the 80s and would sneak to grandma's because my dad had forbidden me to watch the early evening series because they were "too violent", my absolute favorite, forbidden series, along with A-Team and Knight Rider, was "Scarecrow and Mrs. King." Boxleitner is always and forever Agent Lee Stetson. Maybe because of Lee Stetson and Templeton "the Faceman" Peck, I'm one of those strange people who think the Corvette C4 is one of the coolest cars ever.
And of course Babylon 5 is one of the best sci-fi series of all time. Maybe also because Lee Stetson was the captain.
At first, I wondered why they brought in Bruce Boxleitner and the female senator in the Krill episode, since their role seemed rather redundant, however we would later need someone to represent the head of the Union later on and it's good to pick someone who has experience playing the leader of an interstellar alliance. ;)
Now he needs to portray the President of the Federation in Star Trek.
The age old question: Can you make peace with your enemies?
Though of note, a democracy is always two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner; the question there is how do you ensure the safety of the sheep?
That is where constitutional protections and bills of rights come into play ... ADM Halsey would have been betta off sayin 'a representative REPUBLIC is the best form of govt.' ...
Well here’s the thing: the wolves only take what they need and leave the rest. Nature has a delicate balance, there are those who are wise enough to share even with their natural prey.
A wolf does eat a rabbit but only eats when it’s hungry, as for other rabbits well it might just let the rest go.
And true democracy is sometimes inefficient, but when you look at other forms of government which being dictatorship is a million times worse. And to ensure the strong doesn’t dominate the weak for long. But there’s also the strong to protect the weak against those who act strong but are reality are weaker than the weak.
More like two sheep and a wolf. The strong/wealthy/ferocious tend to be outnumbered.
You give the sheep a shotgun.
Enemies are the only people you can make peace with
This is honest to God the best damn part of The Orville! I honestly couldn't believe it when Kaylon Primary said _We accept Your terms._
Someone needs to dub over the Keylon's digital language with old style dial-up modem noise.
would be hilarious if they made extrmely long conversations in half a second.
"Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us." -JFK 1963
So this is where Sheridan wound up after disappearing off of the Blue Star at the end of B5.
I wonder how long he spent in the cocoon to change species.
Better than him as President in supergirl
White Star, but yeah.
@@Slopmaster When Sheridan disappeared from his ship, he had traveled on a Blue Star class scout. It's also known as a snub-nose White Star due to its similar design but smaller size.
@@danielhaire6677 that was never stated on screen, but it’s still interesting.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard : How long a time?
Lieutenant Commander Data : 0.68 seconds sir. For an android, that is nearly an eternity.
And the Kaylon took longer.
Imagine that this only happened because the Krill and Moclans decided to be absolute dumbasses. The union just wanted allies to fight the Kaylon and in trying to do so they made two enemies and then became allies with Kaylon.
I'd like to think that the Krill and Moclans saw this and we're like "Shit, the Kaylon are protecting the Union, well we fucked up" but we all know they don't actually give a shit.
Advise help us.....
Not to mention that the Krill lost their chancellor, leader of the nation. I wonder if they're gonna spin it as "She lost the trust of Avis" or whatever narrative is best used. Which actually begs the question of who's in command right now? 🤔
The Moclans are the ones to blame, the Union has nothing to be ashamed of in kicking out an extreme sexist shitshow of a species. Except for Bortus, Topa, and Klyden, the Moclans deserve nothing but extermination.
The Moclans are the biggest fools imo. The Krill are so racist that they will never believe they need to work with anyone (at least long term) and don't respect the Kaylon like everyone else does (even if they dislike the Kaylon). However, the Moclans had it good in the Union and only fucked up because they're hatred of women tipped into being absurd; they went way too far being prepared to torture and kill a fucking child. And now they're stuck being allies with a race that will never respect them the way the Union did and never even bother trying to understand them or their culture.
I laughed so hard when Charlie blew the core and probably caused mass genocide on Moclus.
Sure it's sad she died (Only a little since she clearly believed she was the only one allowed to grieve.) But at the same time I was thinking "HA! That's what you sexist idiots get."
Is that Bruce Boxleitner as the Union President?
yes it is
Indeed!!
Yep I was ashamed didn’t know until end
I was wondering that myself
No, it’s Father Christmas.
I really love how Bruce Boxleitner is the union president.
For those who don't know the name (like myself) he's the actor behind John J. Sheridan.
Forever Scarecrow.
I miss The Orville. We need another season!
That blue alien is a brilliant design, makes you wonder why Star Trek never attempted anything like that!
I hope they can continue. Love this show.
BRILLIANT writing in reversing Krill as enemies, to allies to enemies, the Moclans from allies to enemies and the Kaylon from allies, to enemies to allies.
The Orville is one of the best modern sci-fi ever made. So sad it's so short... It definitely could me as long as Star Trek or Star Gate series.
I hope that there is eventually at least one Orville spinoff game.
I feel like watching Babylon 5 now.
It's a good thing !
@@Brownshoe24 Tell that to Sheldon Cooper. I wonder what he thinks about the Orville.
The Kaylon saw little logic in democracy, but suffered so greatly under enslavement that the simple fact that democracy is the best way to ensure the powerful do not dominate the weak without resistance is enough for them to agree to it. Well portrayed in this diplomatic exchange.
I've watched this episode tons of times and only now realized the president is Captain Sheridan himself, Bruce Boxleitner!
Sincerely l hope see, very soon, the fourth and fifth seasons of this AMAZING series.
a true MASTERPIECE.
The little head tilt Primary does once Halsey speaks about democracy, showing he trully is interested in what he's about to say
Nothing is truly perfect but something imperfect is better then Nothing.
Imagine if before making a decision, the Kaylons would "open their eyes" and started blasting.
That would be a twist.
Damn you have a ruthless imagination. Though that would be interesting.
Greatest SciFi television series of all time
AGREED
Well the Admiral certainly did not expect them to say okay. 🤣
Government should not be designed only for strength or efficiency, it should be modeled for SOUNDNESS.
Any idea that is not both SOUND and STRONG, is not a good idea. This is a basic premise of logical testing.
Thank you Spock for making me take philosophy.
The blue guy is Bruce Boxleitner. I would recognize his voice anywhere.
Sheridan !
The series NEEDS to continue
That's a hell of an answer to Kaylon Primary's challenge. I didn't know it was paraphrased from Churchill, but damn.
I am surprised the Kaylon did not request all available data on the "Doomsday Weapon" as a condition of joining the Union. It is a Kaylon specific killer and could destroy their entire race if rebuilt.
I do love the way the Union handled the Kaylon, how they fought hard to stop the Kaylon genociding them and when the Union had, effectively, a one sided WMD, they didn't exterminate the Kaylon but gave them a chance to stop or be destroyed. And now, after the Union risked a lot to protect the Kaylon, they cautiously accept the Kaylon into the Union, making clear that with time a they will be full members. It is the best of Star Trek ideals with the pragmatic approach of enemies that seem implacable but aren't.
Anyone else have a feeling that the Kaylon may just be replacing the Moclans as the most controversial members of the Union, ie its pariah member?
Their technological capabilities, which could leap the Union forward by generations, could easily outweigh any controversy IF they prove themselves an honest ally. Even ones worst enemy can become your friend over time.
@@darex0827 Again, that's what the Union had with the Moclans
@@joshuawells835 Kaylons are Vulcans dialed up to 11, as long as the Union lives up to its word and continues to be a benefit, they would never leave them.
I don't feel that way.
With the Moclans, they were cultural zealots. They felt their ability to supply the Union with weapons permitted them to behave in whatever way they pleased, no matter how deplorable it was. Whenever they didn't get their way, they would throw big hissy fits and cry about Union hypocrisy. They loved the protection the Union provided, but also didn't want to play by any of the Union's rules. That certainly had to wear on everyone's nerves. Eventually the Union had their fill of them, especially when it was revealed they were torturing children, and they were finally expelled from the Union.
The Kaylon, on the other hand, wanted their freedom and to be left alone. They initiated their genocide campaign when they were certain the Union would work to enslave their population once again. When it was shown to the Kaylon the Union had no such intentions, the Kaylon agreed to a ceasefire and finally accepted a provisional seat on the Union Council. As I see it, the point of contention was removed from the equation. So long as the Kaylon believe they will not be enslaved by the Union, they will continue to have an amicable relationship with other members of the Union. And yes, I'm sure there is still much healing and reconciliation to do between both parties and there are going to be moments where emotional biologicals conflict with logical machines, but welcome to the fun world of diplomacy.
So this is all to say, based on my final impressions of the season/series finale, I think the Kaylon will fit right in with the other members of the Union.
Wise words. Besides what’s worse having a species of sexists who believe all females should be turned into males after they’re born? Or have a robot organism species who were once slaves and justifiable racist based off logic?
This scene is the perfect example of why The Orville IS the proper successor to Star Trek! This show has brillant writing
For any Star Trek fans, has any one imagined how Data (Star Trek) would play a role in this universe with the Keylon?
Like imagine if he crossed universes & lived among The Orville universe.
I feel he would better advocate for humanity/biologicals than Issac did. Primarily since it’s all he ever wanted to be.
Glad they had far more depth to them than the "evil killbots" that many other scifi series have had with their robots.
I love that look they gave each other “…did we just win?”
Representative democracy is indeed the least bad system there can be, and even machines cant but agree with that.
Hey, President Sherridan!
I like how the robots are clearly just people in robot costumes
90 seconds of This better than 2 years of Picard
I like the idea that the deliberation between the Keylon delegates is actually a debate and eventual vote with all the Keylons.
ok you've successfully made peace with a race of sentient machines, now lets see you try to do the same to a devouring swarm hive mind. (stellaris reference)
Imagine a war between the "Kaylons" of this show and the "Cylons" of Battlestar Galactica.
I would kill for Kaylons on my ship if I were to travel say, in the shadow realm.
And so a great series comes to and end.
I love it. Pres. John Sheridan leading the Union. Can't think of a better person for the role. The only thing to make it better would be to have Delenn by his side - pity that it can't happen.
God I would have loved to have met Mira. She died from basically a fucking bug bite. How fucked is that.
I think I'd want a more ironclad timeline than "eventually if you behave in good faith and if the council sees fit" if I'm committing my people to a war.
nah that's accurate to how real democracies work
"subjugate yourselves to our will and maybe one day we will perform this vague action were describing to you now."
Since it is ultimately dependent on how they behave themselves, it wouldn't be something they could put a hard number too. That being said I imagine the Kaylon are patient.
The inefficiency of Democracy is one of it's virtues.
Isn't Kaylon form of governance technically democracy on a macro scale and of extreme speed. It may not be a liberal democracy but it is a more pure democracy based on free exchange of information and quick calculation and decision making.
Lol maybe they can teach the union a thing or two.
That comment on democracy from Primary did feel very off, I think they only gave him that line so the admiral can answer.
If the Kaylon knew anything about organic history (and they definitely do), then they would also already know what the admiral answered.
The Kaylon system is democracy, but it's direct democracy, with every citizen voting on every issue. The Union is a representative democracy, with the individual citizens appointing representatives who's job is to advocate for the interests of their constituents within a governing body of similar advocates. Primary was only criticizing representative democracy as inefficient. The trouble is, direct democracy like the Kaylon use isn't viable for organic minds on the sorts of scales the Union operates at.
@@YouthRightsRadical we have seen humans using direct democracy though remember in season 1 when they went to that vote planet and lamar nearly got lobotomised cause he gave a lap dance to a war hero statue it dosent work for humans because they let emotions not fact be the driving force something the kaylon lack (except isaac although even thats a stretch)
Isn’t its more like a hive mind? I don’t see much of individualism in Kaylons, except with Isaac, who was created to be different. Until they introduce this to their “society”, any Kaylon who perceives that another Kaylon has come up with something better, will adapt to this.
This is fundamentally different from societies made up by individuals, which will have different wants, needs, values and who need democracy to come to a compromise.
We REALLY need a 4th season!
I'm pretty sure that what the Kailons say to each other is something like "they are so delusional about the nature of democracy haha"
This was such a strong Star Trek moment. 🥺
That took them longer than a second, they must have really been talking it out for a long time.
Will you please post the rest of President Alcuzan's Scenes? I'd love to watch them in a binge and put them in a playlist for quick reference.
0:05 This individual looks a bit like an Ebonite from *The Outer Limits* TOS, featured in the episode "Nightmare," perhaps crossbred with the "evolved" human from "The Sixth Finger." Nice to know that relatives of the Ebonites joined the Union! 🙂
u know who that is rite?
The Line about Democracy is bad but its still the best form of government was a Winston Churchill Qoute.
The kaylons will always be fascinating to me. Although they dont experience or express emotions the same way as biologicals. Its pretty clear they do have them. Obviously we can say about isaac but another would be kaylon 1. We saw how even despite seeing isaac's report, he was still afraid of being enslaved again. Of returning to the years of suffering he experienced as one of the first generstion kaylon. Even though logically he knows the union aren't the same as his creators, that fear and trauma still remains
Bruce has been president of the galaxy twice now
Bruce Boxleitner in The Orville?! Legend!
Was his choice of face paint an homage to Babylon 5's colour scheme? 😚
We can learn to live with each other or the survivors and forage though the ashes.
We've detected an X-Wing approaching 😂
I love the argument for democracy here. It's inefficient and far from perfect, but when done right It's at least the best option we have come up with so far.
But one thing I always thought was strange was that the Kaylon all have the same humanoid shell. You would think being machines they would have found a much more efficient and versatile form. But maybe it's just a way of paying homage to all the robot suits in past Sci-Fi.
1-“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” is attributed to Winston Churchill. Orville did not invent the concept.
2-humanoid shells are cheap for the show
3-humanoid form is really quite efficient. One of the most efficient forms on earth combining, strength, agility, flexibility, etc. Many theories abound how the human form is required for sustaining the brain, thus this form is important for sentience and intelligence.
4-Creations take the shape of their creators. The Kaylon are logical, but that logic requires foundation.
@@blusafe1 At one point I think Star Trek postulated #3 as the reason why so many of the races are similar to humans. Although later on science determined that evolution always seems to produce a crab as the end-product. At least I think I read something like that before.
@@Fletchman1313Star Trek eventually made it canon that life in the galaxy was seeded by a humanoid species, at least that’s how they justify most intelligent life being humanoid.
@@Fletchman1313"Although later on science determined evolution aways seems to produce a crab as the end-product." Good lord I laughed pretty hard at that. And I saw there was a scene that showed the Kaylons were built as a consumer product to serve a humanoid race, thus we're built to look humanoid. And since Kaylons seem to lack creativity beyond hard science I can easily see them not bothering to change their form.
But I think you had my point as well. I seem to remember seeing that insectoid/arachnid/crustacean was far more efficient and versatile than a bipedal form.
The Geth operated by consensus but because ALL Geth had a voice and could communicate at light speed they could make decisions much faster than organics could.
We better get a season 4 or in gonna be mad
That's good old Captain John Sheridan underneath all that blue make-up!
It's like the mechanicus from Warhammer 40k in some ways lol
I keep having to remind myself this was supposed to be a parody.
The look on their faces was like wait that actually worked
Oh dang, it’s like if the Geth from Mass Effect got to join the Citadel Council!
This show really deserves a new season. It's better Trek than Trek has been in a long time.
Forstmagemarii Still nothing yet on whether or not we're getting Season 4, but McFarlane said he isn't giving up yet. Maybe he can get them to agree to a two-hour final movie or something to tie up the remaining loose ends (Lysella on the Orville, Locar in prison, Anaya, etc).
@@CheshireCat-cm1si I heard he wanted to stop because it was eating up a huge amount of time from his other projects. My speculation is that he wants the show to end well before Disney can butcher it like they have with other acquired IPs.
Picard and Discovery was... angry.
So very angry. But look at the madness in the world when it was written. The only sane response was to be angry.
New fronteirs is a fun scifi romp, but to say its safe is an understatement.
They sound like yhe asgard from stargate sg1 when he said "we accept your terms
This is history in the making, bois!!!!!
"...and if you don't accept these terms -- Get the hell out of our galaxy!"
Gotta love Star Trek. I loved this Orville season
I the admission that democracy is inefficient, but that it's the best they can do, helped convince them. "They can't do it perfectly, as we can, but they are doing their best". The "assure that the strong dominate the weak, at least not for long" sealed it, as it touches on their past. Had their masters been part of such an alliance/world, maybe they wouldn't have been allowed to treat them as slaves.
The Union president sounded pretty condescending. Like even considering letting the Kaylon join the Union was generosity.
Not really, the benefits of having the Kaylon as an ally are massive. Especially as the need ton defend against the Moclan/krill alliance.
Also the knowledge & potential technologies they could gain.
Id say allowing them to be apart of the union is a small price to pay for all of that.
I agree the president does sound condescending but in his defence they are fresh of a war with the Kaylon and the Kaylon killed a lot of people. Its going to be awhile for people to forgive and fully trust the Kaylon which probably part of the reason the Kaylon position is provisionally and not a full member ship. It strongly implied they got a long way to go have a full membership.
It's a negotiation. Why would you act as if though what you are offering doesn't have value?
@@planguy9575 i didnt get that impression, i just thought that this was making a deal with the Kaylon fresh of a war with them there was no point beating around the bush.
Also take into account that the Kaylon are a purely logical race and dont give a shit about how good something sounds, just does it make sense, and the Union knows this.
Sheridan making peace in a different way than saying "GTFO of our galaxy!"
Are those the two top admirals?
The top 2 remaining admirals.
@@Paragon231 RIP Ted
is that Bruce Boxlinger i hear in the first part.
Is that Bruce Boxlighter in the blue makeup?