Choosing Gyroscopic or Fin Yacht Stabilization
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2024
- Choosing Gyroscopic or fin yacht stabilization
If you or your significant other have experience an outing where:
~the weather report turned on you
~You have had a quartering sea or a sea to your beam
~Spent sleepless nights at anchor being rolled
~You run a slower boat and have been waked by other vessels
~Have older stabilizers that don’t work at anchor
~Are Stabilizers worth the money?
~Should I buy a boat that already has stabilizers?
~Do I need to do a rip and replace if my boat has old stabilizers?
~What is better gyroscopic or traditional fin stabilizers?
~Do I even have enough room for stabilizers?
Stabilization solutions can range from ~$60K installed to hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending on the tonnage of the boat and let’s say we take a 50’ yacht like the Elli-Yacht its going to set us back $50-$100K. However, if you’ve sunk $400K+ into a boat to call home and look at similar sized new boats that are stabilized, finding a solution that is $75K doesn’t feel better but, might just pencil out.
My research on Yacht world directionally indicates that a boat with stabilizers vs one without drives about a $50K premium than boat without.
Traditional stabilization systems are hydraulic and mechanically driven and this is still the case with the exception of newer magnetic actuation and gyroscopic stabilization systems. The key part of the stabilization system that with current stabilizers, eliminates or reduces roll often up to 90% even while the boat is on the anchor.
If you have an older system with hydraulic fins and out dated stabilization control systems DMS of Holland that offers an expansive line of stabilization solutions offers a state of the art DMS Universal control system that can be refit for your existing stabilization hardware. It even advertises having zero speed stabilization as an option.
Examples are new options like the Magnus Effect for slower moving vessels as well as ‘All-In One” stern mounted fins that act like traditional fins at slow speed and high speed trim tabs at speed.
Seekeeper was the original gyroscopic stabilization system and still holds the largest market share in OEM builds but due to the extreme loads placed on the boats stringers and structures, I haven’t seen that many refitted into an existing boat. There have also been new entrants into the gyroscopic stabilization market with simplified and lower cost options. These are pretty cool for the following reasons:
~They can be refit to the boat without having to pull it out of the water
~Because it’s contained in the boat you don’t have to drill holes in your hull
~They are self contained and don’t require hydraulic pumps
~These are now the most competitively priced systems too.
~ They rule when it comes to zero speed stabilization like at anchor or fishing
Downside
~They draw a lot of power
~They aren’t small one from Quick that would be appropriate for the Elli-yacht would be 26” square.
~They take time to spin up and draw power constantly
~And their effectiveness diminishes over 8-10 knots
Fin Stabilization trade offs:
~ You have to drill holes in your hull
~Fins by design stick out from your hull and can collide logs and damage them
~ Traditional systems require a hydraulic pump, power supply hydraulic lines and all of the installation complexity that comes with them
~ Maintenance can be much higher with traditional systems
Upsides:
~Fins rule for at speed conditions
~Instant on/off
~ With new electromagnetic contactless actuators, maintenance, power consumption, space constraints and zero speed stabilization tradeoffs are largely solved!
CMC Marines STAB 20 that would fit the Ell-yacht
Shaftless design
~If its ripped off no intrusion
~Removes seal maintenance on the shaft
~Compact 14” x 6” tall inside the hull
~Needs 2” of hull thickness reinforced.
~Power consumption is the lowest of any solution at 1kW in motion to 2kW
~200-240Vac low amperage of 0-10amp (also 24V but the tradeoff of 83A)
~We can run this off of our 21kWh bank for 8 hours before the generator would need to recharge our LFE bank
~With the stated average draw at anchor of .25kWh we would have 60 hours before recharging!
We’re also seeing 24V electric options from Humphree.com with fin and rapid interceptor trim tab integration. Side Power has cool new fins that actually create lift and reduce drag to improve speed and fuel efficiency. Unfortunately, that solution is still dependent on traditional hydraulic actuation.
0:00 Why put stabilizers on a boat
1:01 Intro
1:12 Stabilization solutions
6:03 Gyroscopic systems vs fin systems
11:06 Why we chose CMC Marine Stab 20
12:02 How much power does it draw
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Looked into both. Went with keypower fins. Would never go without after having them. I did most of the work.
We indeed went 1 size up from what was advised. Reason was that other boaters (MY OLOH) explained that travelling at speeds below 10 kts reduces the efficiency of the stabilizers. So we decided to go with the stab 25 instead of the stab 20 for our boat size (50'). The difference between pre-stabilization and post-stabilization is immense. Before we had stabilizers we were rocking and rolling, it really wasn't any fun and we had to stay in port multiple times because the boat would just go beserk when in a heavy sea. Now ? We have no problem going out or getting caught in a storm boat is lying rocksolid and on anchor or even in the dock we lie completely quiet, very comfortable to have onboard.
Electricity usage is no problem. On anchor we use perhaps 400 - 500 W at 220 V or 20 - 25 A at 24 V and since we have a large battery bank (1400 Ah) we can run the stabilizers all night long with no need for a generator.
Underway, in heavy seas we can use up to 1 Kw total and the alternators plus solar panels have no problem supplying that.
In other words, the electric stabilizers, for us, are the best choice we have made. We made our boat safer, more comfortable and if we ever buy another boat..........it needs to be stabilized. Never ever again will we buy a boat without stabilization.
Thank you for sharing your experience! What is the tonnage of your vessel?
@@ElliYacht1 We have a Defever 49, which is about 28 tons. Normally we cruise at 6.5 kts and after I saw the video of the guys of MY OLOH I contacted them and they advised, because of our low speed, to size one up. Best advise we have had.
In your case you cruise at much higher speeds, above 10 kts, and that is what the stabs are calculated for as a minimum. So you will be absolutely fine.
We love our stabilizers, wife was about to throw the towel in the ring, she had enough of all the rocking and rolling. Also our dogs were getting sea sick all the time. Now we are a bunch of very happy campers (so to speak), we have a lot more comfort onboard.
Great videos you made on the installation and sorry to break into your channel like this, but I agree with you 100%, the electric stabilizers are complete game changers for boaters in our size.
I couldn’t agree more on the 25’s for a troller. Great choice. Interestingly, the actuators are the same on the STAB 20&25. The difference is the fin size.
Love this description. Very thorough and I look forward to seeing the actual installation!
Awesome overview video. Thank you!
Always love the videos! Thanks
Sitting on my own boat (72' Sportfisher) on the "hard" & 75% of the way through a Humphree Fin and Interceptor install. Great video and explanation of the subject and a carbon copy of what I have been dealing with for months and now doing the dirty work getting it all stuffed in the boat. I just hope it works lol
I’m excited to hear how it all works out! We thought long and hard about the Humphree setup. Beautiful system.
Since we’re a 48V backbone system and our 24V system is modest, we opted for the 240V inverted power sourced CMC system.
I think the integrated intruder setup is going to be well worth it. The additional roll and pitch control will payoff.
Great content, thank you! Looks like you spent a bit of time in the engine room to make this video, shows great dedication ;)
Can you share the cost of all 3 options for you size boat? Thanks again hope install went smooth.
Some boats are putting hydrofoils under the boat on multihulls, not so much for stabilization, but for better fuel consumption. But, like fins they are not conducive for shallow waters and seaweed, flotsam etc in the water.
It also depends on your local waters and what you will use your boat for. In my waters we have intracostal waters and ocean opportunities. 80% of my boating will be in intracostal waters, island hopping and exploring, which means I need to get close to shore in shallow waters and there are shifts in sand even where there are channel markers, so fins are out of the question for me.
I am looking at a new Princess yacht V55 with a seakeeper giro as OEM, which I think will be my best solution. Good video. I wasn't aware that giros lost some effectiveness above 10 knots. Good to know 👍
That’s a good call out. Congratulations on the Princess. Wonderful vessel.
Our fins will be 23” in height and won’t hang below our keel. However, our props and rudders do so vigilance is always priority one in the San Juan Islands…
@@ElliYacht1 👍
Nice job on this one.
Thanks!
Roll chalks might be another solution to offer. I have them on my 48’ Tolly. They make a big difference.
Thanks but we already cut the holes for the fins 😬
I am testing out my trawler to see it's seaworthiness. Well both crew (sailing singlehanded) and boat are not. These recent tests gave nice footage for my channel, but... when I want to get to the 'place where the sun always shines', I need stabs. So I did the same research as you describe, almost would go for the magnus, but one of my subscribers recently bought the 25 on a 49ft yacht and pointed out the zero-speed option. So I too will go for CMC.
Based on the info I gave CMC they also advised the STAB20. Lady Liselot is 50ft and weights around 35 tons. From (new) CMC users I understand it's better to have 1 size larger, so I also have a quote for the 25. What is your experience or thoughts about that?
Thx for this video and all th others you produce - super helpful! Do you mind sharing what the CMC Marine Stab 20 system you installed cost? Much like you we are trying to sort out among the systems and what you describe on your vessel is similar to us. We are a 1995 48' OA 486 PH which we recently purchased and want stabilization as live aboards, and at sea cruising etc. Looking at the Humphrey and Seakeeper solutions but have heard so much it's almost overwhelming on the other systems. We live in Seattle BTW...
Hi Andy, thank you for the encouragement! The hardware is $55k. We’re still doing the install so… the labor costs will be released shortly :-)
The 48 OA PH is one of my favorite. I hope to see you on the water this year.
Good video!! My only comment would be maintenance. The Sleipner (Side-Power) fins require maintenance at 4,000 hours. That's a lot of use, years for many. Otherwise, great explenations!
One question- in your conversations did you ever talk to the fin sales guys about planing hulls? Can planning boats like our 49'6" Cruisers Yachts express cruiser use them, does a planing hull allow for fins? Or stick with gyros? Just curious if that ever came up. Thanks! Just found ypur channel, now a subscriber.
Great question. The CMC fins are designed to accommodate high speed planing hulls. The GPS adjusts the fin angle real time based on speed. It’s like a magic carpet.
Gyros actually become less effective as speed increases, 8 knots is starting speed of degradation.
I'll install both types
It has merit.
With regards to a gyro stabiliser not working while the vessel is underway, especially at higher speeds, what makes you think that? If you size the stabiliser for small magnitude and frequency waves while stationary it will be under powered while underway, but if sized correctly, I don't see why it would not work as well at higher speeds.
The reduction of roll stabilization effect as speed increases for gyroscopes isn’t an opinion, it’s a law of physics. During our design research period it was stated by every gyro manufacturer we engaged with. They can provide more information, if you are interested in debating their product capabilities with them.
@@ElliYacht1 If you understand the reason and agree with it, are you able to explain it? Just curious as to why and how.
When a boat is at-anchor or underway, both systems will improve stability in both situations if sized properly. Fin stabilizers work best when the boat is moving, but bigger fins are needed for optimum at-rest performance than for underway performance. That’s a trade-off that may lead to different decisions, depending on how a boat will be used. Gyros, on the other hand, work best when the boat is stationary, or moving at slow speeds; larger gyros are needed to provide good stabilization when the boat is underway. This also requires analysis of how the boat will be used and when the best performance is most important.
The fundamental difference between the two systems is that fins generate greater and greater force as the rate of water flow increases (i.e., the faster the boat is going). This force increases exponentially with speed, which is a massive advantage compared to gyros. A gyro system generates the same amount of force, no matter what speed the boat is moving, so it is less effective the faster you go.
When a boat is planing, it is hardest to stabilize; the boat becomes more rigid on a plane, so it wants to assume the angle of the wave. That is, it wants to roll with the wave. Due to the tremendous force generated by the foils at speed, here’s where you can take the greatest advantage of the fins’ underway capabilities. The fins have more power to stabilize the boat exactly when the boat is hardest to stabilize, and as an added benefit, will counteract list from crosswinds or weight distribution. Conversely, as mentioned above, a gyro’s force remains constant, restricted by the size and speed of the gyro flywheel, and it can’t correct for list.
@@ElliYacht1 Okay, I agree with the listing. A gyro can only compensate momentarily for roll, where as fins can compensate continually for list. The lower power consumption of the fins is impressive, though for a motor yacht with large output, even 10kw is not all that much for an engine. I think the fins are a good addition (depending on orientation) for the use of a kite also. I think the stability at speed would largely depend on the centre of gravity, if very low it would be less of an issue and the deadrise of the hull. Thanks for your response and time. Be safe.
What about zipwakes? Much cheaper just no help at 0 speed but i had a friend with a 40ft boat install him self for 4500$ gained 1 knot and stabilized under way.
We might be adding those next year. Do they help with the bow pitching too?
If you can afford it, get both.
We would have had to cut the cockpit open for the Gyro. That was a show stopper for us, along with having to run the Genset.
Slightly misleading in as much as you said no need for a haul out when fitting a gyro system, wrong, Seakeeper is cooled by sea water and therefore needs a haul out to fit through hull components. Quick on the otherhand is air cooled and can be fitted while the boat is in the water. Otherwise a good informative video, thanks.
@keithhughes problem with the seakeeper is that the bearings need to be changed every 3000 - 5000 hours and in order to do that you will need to completely disassemble the gyro. On top of that, they guzzle electricity, so you almost need a special generator to be able to run them. For us those 2 items made us decide against the gyro system.
👇 'Promo sm'
Words only - not worth the time. SHOW ... don't Tell.
Everyone learns differently. Watch the sea trial.
WOKEN!
Huh?