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I think one thing that could've made Ishtar sympathetic is having her believe there was a way to free Julius from Loptyr's possession, that he could be saved & the reason she stays by his side is to keep an eye on him while she tries to break him from Loptyr's control. It's a simple solution, sure, but i think it could've really helped Ishtar's case, at least to me.
i cant defend in game Ishtar but i finaly read the end of the FE4 manga and since it expands on characters interactions i think this is worth mentioning: when Ishtar was a kid and she first awokened her major holy blood she accidentaly killed a servant of house friege, ever after she saw herself as dangerous because she could accidentaly kill innocents and loved ones again against her will, then Blume dragged her to Belhalla for a party where she met Julius when they were both kids before he was possesed by Loptyr, Julius invited her to play because he noticed her deppressed in a corner of the courtyard and when Julius grabbed her hand Ishtar though she was going to accidentaly kill him too, but she did not and when Julius took her to play she regained happines, she believed that being near Julius was a way to stop her major holy blood to become unstable and accidentaly kill again, so i guess that she stayed with Julius for 2 main reasons being: she truly loved Julius for the time they spend togeteher before his possesion in false hope that he would return, and the second being her fear of once again becoming an unpredictable russian roulette although this one may be an unconscious excuse to support the first reason as its shown when she was defeated by Ced in the manga version of Chapter 10. as an extra: in the manga just after Ishtar is apparently killed by Ced in the manga version of chapter 10, Julius takes her body and goes back to Chalphy where Arvis, Julia and Palmark were escorting the kids out to safety. Julius got so shocked from Ishtar's apparent death that he regained consciousness for a moment and started struggling with Loptyr but then Loptyr starts Julia's mind control early and sends her to the battlefield, after this Julius's body collapsed and just when Arvis was about to interfere Manfroy reaches them and takes Julius away. After this, possesed Julia kills someone from Seliphs army and the despair that aroused from that healed Loptyr and restored his control over Julius this time apparently for good and then Manfroy informs that Ishtar survived due to Julius fast actions. My guess is that when Ishtar dies for good in the finale chapter she had alredy realized Julius was not going to come back and her fight was merely to seek death and await for Julius in the afterlife.
I think ishtar's design's too good to be hated. She could have as much personality as an archanea secondary character and she still would have a massive fanbase
no no no, I agree with you. Ishtar sucks (as a character or at least, a lovesick trope character) and its painful to see this character who is actively against Julius' (not even Julius, Loptous) wishes and desires of kidnapping children to make them pawns, still retains her love for a corpse. Hell, Arvis in heroes basically calls her pathetic in Ishtar's forging bonds convo because of her love of Julius and her intentions of being with him.
BigKlingy has made a comment about how Selena’s death could potentially be a s*icide by Renais Army with just nothing left to live for after being told that there is no hope for Vigarde
Recently played Valkyria Chronicles and one of the main adversaries, Selvaria Bles, combines like all of Selenas, Brunnyas and Ishtars characteristics, both the good and especially the bad.
Might get a bit spoiler heavy for Valkyria Chronicles but Selvaria really has cherry picked all of the Ishtar achetypes qualities and traits. Selvaria, like Brunnya and Selena, is one of the highest ranks in the empires army, promoted into the higher elite of three generals called "Drei Stern", similar to the Wyvern Generals of Bern and the Six Generals of Grado and is utterly devoted to a douche prince called Maximillian, who acts similar to Zephiel, if a bit more driven by his ego. Like Selena, Selvaria feels indepted to Maximillian for his (perceived) help from freeing and saving her from the lab where she had been experiement on for, I guess, a decade, helping him in the war effort as repayment. Although, contrasting with Vigarde, its pretty clear that Maxi was exploiting Selvaria from the start for his ambitions. From Isthar, Selvaria picked her unique ancestry, being a descendant of magical superbeings called Valkyria, not unlike Ishtars mastery over Mjölnir and being a descendant of the crusader Thrud. Also like Selena and Brunnya, Selvaria did a last stand under her Majesties orders, that resulted in her demise that, in the grand scheme of things, felt kinda pointless.
@@Prisoner-gk6lr Coming to think of it, Maxi might be more of a scumbag than Zombie Vigarde, Julius and Zephiel for they at least never callously ordered their devoted subject to commit suicide to halt the enemy forces, at least as far as I can remember. Hell, Zephiel seems almost like a courteous guy in comparison who, when things get dire, ordered the two women, Brunnya and Idunn, to get away to safety while he made his last stand himself.
Regarding Julius and Ishtar, from reading various notes from the devs from interviews and such, there were so much more planned initially for FE4 which were cut due to limitations. In general I find that not only for these 2, gen2 is a LOT weaker than gen1, which might be due to all that potential cut content. Its nice to hear someone else being absolutely clueless at why Ishtar is so popular, even prior FEH, old Jugdral fan speaking here, she was already top ranking among FE4 fans. I guess because shes being some sort of qualified as that tragic Camus archetype even tho FE4 has much better ones, its surely actually something not that deep, aka people find her design hot. We never get to *actually* see Julius being himself in game, only scarce infos through some dialogues that he started getting possessed being about 7 years old, so maybe some people might theorize he and Ishtar could have first met during childhood, which while it could work considering Hilda's connection with the Velthomer family and an arranged union between the pair planned right since birth, but its much of a sketch with no canonicity within the game so yeah, I absolutely cant get either why she loves him considering his current actions. Not trying to be the apologist, im still kinda trying to find an explanation, a lot of FE4 concepts being wasted potentials due to limitations. Great vid anyway 👍
Perhaps the fabled FE4 remake will fix Ishtar. I sure hope so because it WILL make her more popular regardless, so hopefully they at least give her a reason to be
Fe4 has such a good story, but they really dropped the ball with the loptyrians and Juilius and Ishtar. A story of moral greyness and politics meets a super evil child sacrificing death cult who's redeeming factors only come from outside the game itself.
I've always wanted to see what happens if you replaced all the supernatural elements in each FE story with something that could happen irl. Instead of gen 2 being about a cult sacrificing kids to their possessed prince, instead it could be that one lie Julius told Ishtar about the child hunts in FE5 being about molding the next generation to take other countries/continents. You can than build on that with commoners debating whether its better to raise their kids or give them to the empire in hopes of a better future or which nobles support or don't support that for sociopolitical issues or whether or not the whole "taking on other continents to expand the empire" vs a more isolationist stance.
The most politics you get in Gen 1 is in regards to Eldigan and his very solid reasons for why he has to work for Chagall because Sigurd is being played by the Grannvale nobles Otherwise, both Langbalt and Reptor are power hungry fools ready to kill their own children if the need arises
thats why many authors make the evil bad guy look like voldemort. if he looked like tom riddle throughout the books people would probably side with him.
At least Ishtar follow her logic until the end, Padme fall in love with Anakin after learning that he murdered an entire village but is sad and surprised when he betrays the republic
You know the funny thing about this is I have seen fanart of at least 2 of the 3 women that you used in the thumbnail and I can't deny they are very very attractive woman despite being evil.
I wanna talk about Zephia, from Engage, because I think she's on the verge of being an awesome use of this trope, but is dragged down in her death scene. The idea of Zephia being motivated by a familial love for the Four Hounds is a really good one. It makes Veyle a fantastic foil to Alear. They were both victims of Sombron's abuse, but where Alear got Lumera, a kind mother who helped her heal and stay away from Sombron, Veyle got Zephia, an abusive mother who kept her near Sombron. And the idea of the Four Hounds as an abusive adoptive family is a compelling one all on its own. The way that people will stay with their abusers despite the harm ties into Sombron's children so well, the way constant abuse makes even the lowest form of kindness seem worth it all, how Zephia is capable of kindness and cruelty. But then they fuck it up at the very end with Zephia saying she just wanted Sombron's child, and saying that spiting Sombron was her motivation for helping the heroes. It should've been her love (twisted as it was) for _Veyle_ that motivated her to help us, really go into that contradictory, broken love, how hard it can be the reconcile someone's actions. And her wanting a biological child weakens that love, (thematically, by making it her motivation) and for Zephia, the narrative strength of the abuse needs the love to hit the hardest. We already have Sombron as the pure evil abuser, Zephia is the one that mixes kindness in. Though I think in general Zephia needed more moments of kindness for her and the Hounds to be peak.
There's a very simple problem with Ishtar. It's not her. It's FE4 just not having enough dialogue and more importantly, no flashbacks. Once you read through the manga or novelizations you will understand why. As they provide plenty of backstory for Ishtar x Julius, including scenes where Julius isn't completely possessed. Because Gen 1 takes place when neither Ishtar nor Julius are characters, and Gen 2 when Julius is way too far down the possession line, Julius doesn't get any scene where he isn't heavily possessed because there's ZERO flashback scenes in the game, and by this point he's fully possessed, so that's all they can show him as. Julia does get a line in Ch10 where she says how Julius used to be pretty normal before Manfroy handed him the Book of Loptous, so that's the extent of non-possessed Julius because we don't get any flashbacks. Also, statistically, all you need to disarm Julius is a Silence Sword or Sleep Sword. Julius has more than 30 Res, meaning they are 100% effective on hit. Just hit him and yank his book away or something? Also Arvis has enough Magic to hit Julius with status staves if he equips Valflame.
I think Ishtar doesn't need to be playable to be better. She just needs to either: Get scenes where we see why she's so loyal to Julius or make it clear that Julius, like Zephiel, is merely using Ishtar too. Although you can make her playable with the latter if say, Tinne(or Linda) talks sense into her, or something
Algorithm! Also I like Zephia’s design but I think she ends up being kinda a flop, like she could’ve been cooler but… she’s kindaaa in this trope like you said, but it’s not like she’s great
FE 4's second generation has the issue of children's memory being impressive. The cast are too familial when they were 5 year olds. I mean they are teenagers who rarely leave their providences or within the war that lasts three years. The presented case of Julia stating that she remembers Julius' good hearted nature when he was a TODDLER. I mean before 4 years old. Even if he was 7 years MAX, that does not mean a literal mean streak will not occur. Ishtar ONLY knows that mean streak. She fell in love due to peer pressure. Her family introduces the pair. Ishtore has a lover who is a commander on the field. Julius and Ishtar IS that relationship from Ch.7 but for the finale. Of course she wants to salvage Julius from Loptyr but unlike Ishtore's lover had pride. So the writers literally redone that typecast. Maybe Ishtar just had the 'Anticlea' moment when Hilda died. The rest of her family had died as she last spoke to Julius. Ch.10 may indicate how she felt but even worse for her excuse, it was a game very late in the war. Like Tristan barely doubled her with the brave sword. Funny to get a ring but poor in writing.
"Ramza...what did you get in the end?" The fact that a Delita campaign was planned is sad. Would've been nice to get a clearer picture of his side of the war. I wish Matsuno could make a game again (or get him to write a fire emblem story)
idk if this counts but i really love orson and monica, their story is just so fucked up and the fact the love he had for his wife was used in such a way makes me feel sick to my stomach
Julius will literally go about being the most evil person in Jugdral (besides Hilda) and Ishtar is like "I can fix him"
What a useless goddess
Ishtar just had to say "stop kidnapping children or I wont give you any headpats for a MONTH" and it probably would've worked
Ishtar taking "love is blind" too seriously
I think one thing that could've made Ishtar sympathetic is having her believe there was a way to free Julius from Loptyr's possession, that he could be saved & the reason she stays by his side is to keep an eye on him while she tries to break him from Loptyr's control.
It's a simple solution, sure, but i think it could've really helped Ishtar's case, at least to me.
i cant defend in game Ishtar but i finaly read the end of the FE4 manga and since it expands on characters interactions i think this is worth mentioning:
when Ishtar was a kid and she first awokened her major holy blood she accidentaly killed a servant of house friege, ever after she saw herself as dangerous because she could accidentaly kill innocents and loved ones again against her will, then Blume dragged her to Belhalla for a party where she met Julius when they were both kids before he was possesed by Loptyr, Julius invited her to play because he noticed her deppressed in a corner of the courtyard and when Julius grabbed her hand Ishtar though she was going to accidentaly kill him too, but she did not and when Julius took her to play she regained happines, she believed that being near Julius was a way to stop her major holy blood to become unstable and accidentaly kill again, so i guess that she stayed with Julius for 2 main reasons being: she truly loved Julius for the time they spend togeteher before his possesion in false hope that he would return, and the second being her fear of once again becoming an unpredictable russian roulette although this one may be an unconscious excuse to support the first reason as its shown when she was defeated by Ced in the manga version of Chapter 10.
as an extra: in the manga just after Ishtar is apparently killed by Ced in the manga version of chapter 10, Julius takes her body and goes back to Chalphy where Arvis, Julia and Palmark were escorting the kids out to safety. Julius got so shocked from Ishtar's apparent death that he regained consciousness for a moment and started struggling with Loptyr but then Loptyr starts Julia's mind control early and sends her to the battlefield, after this Julius's body collapsed and just when Arvis was about to interfere Manfroy reaches them and takes Julius away. After this, possesed Julia kills someone from Seliphs army and the despair that aroused from that healed Loptyr and restored his control over Julius this time apparently for good and then Manfroy informs that Ishtar survived due to Julius fast actions.
My guess is that when Ishtar dies for good in the finale chapter she had alredy realized Julius was not going to come back and her fight was merely to seek death and await for Julius in the afterlife.
In-game ishtar is literaly less simpathetic than hetzel in radiant dawn, at least one of the two realizes they are on the wrong side of the war
I REFUSE to believe we could not have just taken Selena prisoner.
I think ishtar's design's too good to be hated. She could have as much personality as an archanea secondary character and she still would have a massive fanbase
no no no, I agree with you. Ishtar sucks (as a character or at least, a lovesick trope character) and its painful to see this character who is actively against Julius' (not even Julius, Loptous) wishes and desires of kidnapping children to make them pawns, still retains her love for a corpse. Hell, Arvis in heroes basically calls her pathetic in Ishtar's forging bonds convo because of her love of Julius and her intentions of being with him.
BigKlingy has made a comment about how Selena’s death could potentially be a s*icide by Renais Army with just nothing left to live for after being told that there is no hope for Vigarde
I like Ishtar because she is very hot.
And Mjölnir is a cool legendary weapon
Recently played Valkyria Chronicles and one of the main adversaries, Selvaria Bles, combines like all of Selenas, Brunnyas and Ishtars characteristics, both the good and especially the bad.
Might get a bit spoiler heavy for Valkyria Chronicles but Selvaria really has cherry picked all of the Ishtar achetypes qualities and traits. Selvaria, like Brunnya and Selena, is one of the highest ranks in the empires army, promoted into the higher elite of three generals called "Drei Stern", similar to the Wyvern Generals of Bern and the Six Generals of Grado and is utterly devoted to a douche prince called Maximillian, who acts similar to Zephiel, if a bit more driven by his ego. Like Selena, Selvaria feels indepted to Maximillian for his (perceived) help from freeing and saving her from the lab where she had been experiement on for, I guess, a decade, helping him in the war effort as repayment. Although, contrasting with Vigarde, its pretty clear that Maxi was exploiting Selvaria from the start for his ambitions. From Isthar, Selvaria picked her unique ancestry, being a descendant of magical superbeings called Valkyria, not unlike Ishtars mastery over Mjölnir and being a descendant of the crusader Thrud. Also like Selena and Brunnya, Selvaria did a last stand under her Majesties orders, that resulted in her demise that, in the grand scheme of things, felt kinda pointless.
@@Prisoner-gk6lr Coming to think of it, Maxi might be more of a scumbag than Zombie Vigarde, Julius and Zephiel for they at least never callously ordered their devoted subject to commit suicide to halt the enemy forces, at least as far as I can remember. Hell, Zephiel seems almost like a courteous guy in comparison who, when things get dire, ordered the two women, Brunnya and Idunn, to get away to safety while he made his last stand himself.
Regarding Julius and Ishtar, from reading various notes from the devs from interviews and such, there were so much more planned initially for FE4 which were cut due to limitations. In general I find that not only for these 2, gen2 is a LOT weaker than gen1, which might be due to all that potential cut content.
Its nice to hear someone else being absolutely clueless at why Ishtar is so popular, even prior FEH, old Jugdral fan speaking here, she was already top ranking among FE4 fans. I guess because shes being some sort of qualified as that tragic Camus archetype even tho FE4 has much better ones, its surely actually something not that deep, aka people find her design hot.
We never get to *actually* see Julius being himself in game, only scarce infos through some dialogues that he started getting possessed being about 7 years old, so maybe some people might theorize he and Ishtar could have first met during childhood, which while it could work considering Hilda's connection with the Velthomer family and an arranged union between the pair planned right since birth, but its much of a sketch with no canonicity within the game so yeah, I absolutely cant get either why she loves him considering his current actions. Not trying to be the apologist, im still kinda trying to find an explanation, a lot of FE4 concepts being wasted potentials due to limitations.
Great vid anyway 👍
For the first 2, I wouldn't call it in love. A better description would be "devoted." They are both devoted to their leaders and will die for them.
Cool video! Selena(FE8), Brunya and Ishtar are my favorite female villains in FE.
Perhaps the fabled FE4 remake will fix Ishtar. I sure hope so because it WILL make her more popular regardless, so hopefully they at least give her a reason to be
Fe4 has such a good story, but they really dropped the ball with the loptyrians and Juilius and Ishtar. A story of moral greyness and politics meets a super evil child sacrificing death cult who's redeeming factors only come from outside the game itself.
I've always wanted to see what happens if you replaced all the supernatural elements in each FE story with something that could happen irl.
Instead of gen 2 being about a cult sacrificing kids to their possessed prince, instead it could be that one lie Julius told Ishtar about the child hunts in FE5 being about molding the next generation to take other countries/continents. You can than build on that with commoners debating whether its better to raise their kids or give them to the empire in hopes of a better future or which nobles support or don't support that for sociopolitical issues or whether or not the whole "taking on other continents to expand the empire" vs a more isolationist stance.
The most politics you get in Gen 1 is in regards to Eldigan and his very solid reasons for why he has to work for Chagall because Sigurd is being played by the Grannvale nobles
Otherwise, both Langbalt and Reptor are power hungry fools ready to kill their own children if the need arises
>moral greyness
Lol
Yeah, I was going to say this. Fe4 has a pretty clear evil and good side.
FEMSPaint, Your videos always make me happy, so I subscribed!
1. I thought of Pheros
2. I didn’t know Brunnya did the sparing their soldiers thing before Mustafa.
0:49 Hero Ogier isn't real, he can't hurt you!!!
Ishtar's hair is pretty, that's basically all I like about her. I am interested to see what they give us for Gen 2 in the eventual remake
Reverse Darth Vader
I remember reading some in game text about Julius having been a very kindhearted kid before he was possessed by Loptous.
If villain bad 🤨 why sexy?🙄✋
thats why many authors make the evil bad guy look like voldemort. if he looked like tom riddle throughout the books people would probably side with him.
When you mentioned being exploited by someone you thought you loved, I so thought it was gonna be a patreon segue.
Padme from Star Wars is just Ishtar, Kaga did it first
At least Ishtar follow her logic until the end, Padme fall in love with Anakin after learning that he murdered an entire village but is sad and surprised when he betrays the republic
Since you showed her in the intro, on what scale would you rate Alcina then? Cause that is for sure a mixed bag.....
10:44 I no joke thought this was leading into a Patreon shill
Selena is peak and I’m glad people agree
You know the funny thing about this is I have seen fanart of at least 2 of the 3 women that you used in the thumbnail and I can't deny they are very very attractive woman despite being evil.
which 2
@@davidgoldammer348 Ishtar and Brunnya.
The meme in the thumbnail sounds about right lol
i like selena's backstory. she owes her life to him.
Well clearly someone hasnt played FFXIV, even though it has a free trial that goes up to level 60-
I don't play MMOs or Gachas because I promised my Mommy I would never do drugs
@@femspaint2911”No drugs or gambling” - Man fishing for perfect levels and gambling units’ lives on shaky 70% hits
@@femspaint2911 i like this comment
I wanna talk about Zephia, from Engage, because I think she's on the verge of being an awesome use of this trope, but is dragged down in her death scene.
The idea of Zephia being motivated by a familial love for the Four Hounds is a really good one. It makes Veyle a fantastic foil to Alear. They were both victims of Sombron's abuse, but where Alear got Lumera, a kind mother who helped her heal and stay away from Sombron, Veyle got Zephia, an abusive mother who kept her near Sombron.
And the idea of the Four Hounds as an abusive adoptive family is a compelling one all on its own. The way that people will stay with their abusers despite the harm ties into Sombron's children so well, the way constant abuse makes even the lowest form of kindness seem worth it all, how Zephia is capable of kindness and cruelty.
But then they fuck it up at the very end with Zephia saying she just wanted Sombron's child, and saying that spiting Sombron was her motivation for helping the heroes. It should've been her love (twisted as it was) for _Veyle_ that motivated her to help us, really go into that contradictory, broken love, how hard it can be the reconcile someone's actions.
And her wanting a biological child weakens that love, (thematically, by making it her motivation) and for Zephia, the narrative strength of the abuse needs the love to hit the hardest. We already have Sombron as the pure evil abuser, Zephia is the one that mixes kindness in. Though I think in general Zephia needed more moments of kindness for her and the Hounds to be peak.
as someone who really appreciates the Jugdral games storytelling, Ishtar is...eh. definitely inferior to the other two ladies on this list.
So does this make Sonia Reed the anti-Ishtar?
There's a very simple problem with Ishtar. It's not her. It's FE4 just not having enough dialogue and more importantly, no flashbacks. Once you read through the manga or novelizations you will understand why. As they provide plenty of backstory for Ishtar x Julius, including scenes where Julius isn't completely possessed.
Because Gen 1 takes place when neither Ishtar nor Julius are characters, and Gen 2 when Julius is way too far down the possession line, Julius doesn't get any scene where he isn't heavily possessed because there's ZERO flashback scenes in the game, and by this point he's fully possessed, so that's all they can show him as. Julia does get a line in Ch10 where she says how Julius used to be pretty normal before Manfroy handed him the Book of Loptous, so that's the extent of non-possessed Julius because we don't get any flashbacks.
Also, statistically, all you need to disarm Julius is a Silence Sword or Sleep Sword. Julius has more than 30 Res, meaning they are 100% effective on hit. Just hit him and yank his book away or something? Also Arvis has enough Magic to hit Julius with status staves if he equips Valflame.
Need me more male characters in love with villainesses. And I mean love, not brainwashed XD
Meanwhile, Zephia wanted Sombros' babies. If the Fe4 Remake is real I hope they fix Ishtar to potentially recruit her.
I think Ishtar doesn't need to be playable to be better. She just needs to either: Get scenes where we see why she's so loyal to Julius or make it clear that Julius, like Zephiel, is merely using Ishtar too. Although you can make her playable with the latter if say, Tinne(or Linda) talks sense into her, or something
Fe4 was mentioned. We won
Algorithm! Also I like Zephia’s design but I think she ends up being kinda a flop, like she could’ve been cooler but… she’s kindaaa in this trope like you said, but it’s not like she’s great
FE 4's second generation has the issue of children's memory being impressive. The cast are too familial when they were 5 year olds. I mean they are teenagers who rarely leave their providences or within the war that lasts three years. The presented case of Julia stating that she remembers Julius' good hearted nature when he was a TODDLER. I mean before 4 years old. Even if he was 7 years MAX, that does not mean a literal mean streak will not occur.
Ishtar ONLY knows that mean streak. She fell in love due to peer pressure. Her family introduces the pair. Ishtore has a lover who is a commander on the field. Julius and Ishtar IS that relationship from Ch.7 but for the finale. Of course she wants to salvage Julius from Loptyr but unlike Ishtore's lover had pride. So the writers literally redone that typecast. Maybe Ishtar just had the 'Anticlea' moment when Hilda died. The rest of her family had died as she last spoke to Julius.
Ch.10 may indicate how she felt but even worse for her excuse, it was a game very late in the war. Like Tristan barely doubled her with the brave sword. Funny to get a ring but poor in writing.
Seymour Guado is the best villain in final fantasy.
One question, do you consider Delita Heiral a villain?
"Ramza...what did you get in the end?"
The fact that a Delita campaign was planned is sad. Would've been nice to get a clearer picture of his side of the war.
I wish Matsuno could make a game again (or get him to write a fire emblem story)
8:46 Didn't expect to be the 20% but eh, its a privilege all the less
what no petreine
idk if this counts but i really love orson and monica, their story is just so fucked up and the fact the love he had for his wife was used in such a way makes me feel sick to my stomach
Honestly forgot Ishtar existed before watching this lma, she's the most whatever fe4 antagonist
Yes, say it. I can’t stand Ishtar either.