Neutral is not Ground; Ground is not Neutral
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2021
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I appreciate this video!
Appreciate the video, because much of the misunderstanding regarding ground and neutral can be traced to the 3 wire dryer and range receptacles that were legal and widely accepted though the 1993 NEC (prohibited in 1996) and further complicating this configuration which I firmly believe should have never been permitted in the first place, was the interpretation from local inspectors. I have done renovations in the past and have found 8/2 & 10/2 NM for ranges and dryers respectively, with the ground acting as the bare neutral, this was never technically permitted per the NEC but was apparently permitted in some jurisdictions. Through the 1993 NEC stated that for frames of dryers and ranges grounded with the grounded (neutral) conductor, the neutral must be insulated or bare when part of an SE cable assembly, and shall be no smaller than 10awg.
The history of permission for neutral grounding can trace it's roots to 1942, when metal shortages and rationing during the war prompted manufacturers of electric ranges desperately wishing to sell their products to appeal to the code making panel and ask for special permission. Their request was granted in 1947 for ranges, and 1953 for dryers. Ironically Canada never permitted this, and always required a true ground from the time equipment grounding conductors were required on all 125 and 250 volt circuits in the early 1960s.
Thank you
Currently have 3 wire but my new stove requires a 4 wire. Can i just a ground to the existing 3 wire or does the whole wire have to be changed out?
We're so connect the ground from a microwave plug
😊
In the past, there were appliances that the neutral and ground were not separated (inside the appliance). That was a good while back, but you still run into them now and then. It was back when things were made to last. I don't believe I have ever seen a single person on an electrician chatboard address this. Is it because they don't know it exists? Or is it because they don't want to say it is out there but they have no comment on it.
240V cooktops, for example.
I think some really old radios and television sets (pre-1960) had a condenser connected between the neutral or what is assumed to be neutral, and the chassis. And because two prong plugs and receptacles, some of which were non-polarized, (meaning both prongs same size) typical of the era, you have a 50-50 chance of inserting the plug in reverse and having a live chassis. And even if the plug and receptacle was polarized there is no assurance that it was wired properly.
I work for an electrical company. I was made to i stall the outlet for the 50A 3-way plug using 2 hots and a ground on the neutral lug. It even said "neutral". I protested but eventually lost since his rationale is that this is the way motors are wired. A large device was going to be plgged into this outlet, not a motor. I feel it was the wrong way but I am a new hire, I had to just shut up. Am I wrong?
For three wire outlets, Ground and Neutral are tied together. For four wire outlets, Ground and Neutral are kept separate all the way back to the circuit breaker panel where they are bonded together.
Our house was built in 1980 and uses the older 3 wire 240v outlets for the range. I want to replace them with the newer 4 wire outlets. Luckily, they ran 8ga wire with a ground to the box. Unluckily, they cut the ground very short and screwed it into the outlet boxes. Would it be against code / unsafe to run a ground from the same screw on the outlet box to the new outlet? Or, does the run have to be continuous?
Thanks!
Not sure about the NEC code requirements but if the connections are done correctly, then electrically it would work.
If adding ground to an ungrounded recepticle, NEC allows you can add it by any means possible. It doesn't even have to be ran with your current cable. So in your instance yes that is acceptable.
Can I get some advice from you about replacing electric cooktop? My outlet has black, white, and red wires, but my new cooktop has black, white and green wires. How should I match the color wires in that case? My wall outlet doesn't have ground wire at all. Thanks
You’ll need to measure voltages to be sure but it sounds like your new wiring is only 120 VAC. You have L1 (black) Neutral (white) and Ground (green). Measure the voltage between black and white to make sure. I’m thinking you’ll only have 129 VAC there.
Hello! My Home has the 4 wire run from the Breaker box BUT my new stove only has 3 Wires and calls for the Neutral and House ground to be tied together... What should I one do when facing this? Thanks!!
For an electric stove supplied with three wire romex, your three conductors are: Neutral, Line 1, and Line 2. Neutral is bonded to the appliance chassis. This is not desirable because if you get an open Neutral in the power wiring, that means the chassis is no longer Grounded. So the NEC was revised to specify 4-conductor romex. This way, Neutral and Ground are separated and Ground has its own conductor all the way back to the circuit breaker panel where it is bonded with Neutral.
In your case with the 3-wire romex, existing installations are grandfathered in. The only way to upgrade is to physically remove the 3-wire romex and replace it with 4-wire. This gets real expensive real fast. As long as your 3-wire connection is done properly, just keep using it.
My Thoughts exactly! I'm very surprised these Brand new Dalxo stoves can be even sold in America.. Could you take the house ground and make your own chassis ground to the unit with it's own screw? Thanks again!@@AppliantologyOrg
I don't have two hot wires on my 3 wire range. House was built in the 80s. I only have 1 hot, 1 neutral, and 1 ground.
It sounds like you have a black wire (hot), white wire (other hot wire), and green (or bare) wire (ground/neutral) going to that 3 prong 240volt range outlet, but that's just my guess? If the outlet on your oven is truly 240 volt, then it almost has to be like that. If so, you need to take some red tape and wrap it on the end of the white wire to indicate it's a line (hot), and take some white tape and wrap it on the end of the green (or bare) wire to indicate that it's being used as a neutral. Not a good situation, and should probably be corrected by a licensed electrician.
My electrician refuses to ground to neutral on 40A three-prong stove hookup. But now there is no ground at all on the stove chassis. Isn’t this even more dangerous than tying ground to neutral?
I've found that many electricians know how to run romex and wire switches but they don't understand electricity. Sounds weird, but it's true. Get a new electrician.
Wires do not just burn on overload. The breaker trips first. Also if the neural were to break the case would become energized even without any other failure.
100% yes. I have a relative who got a shock from exactly that. The insulation of the electric heating element broke down over time. This caused stray voltage on the stove and a cooking pot on the stove, but there was no path for it. This person touched the cooking pot, and a grounded appliance at the same time, and *zap.*
When I looked into it I was like, "who the heck wired this up?" I guess now I know. ;p
I also ohmed out all the elements to look for other bad ones, but I do not remember the results anymore.
@@AppliantologyOrg I just bought an LG stovetop and its got 3 wires, red, green and black. Realizing the white is either white or tied to ground. Its an older apartment made in the late 1950s we think. The stove I had running, on a 3 wire plug shocked me as I held a stainless steel skilled I washed and set onto the stove with my hand in the sink/water somehow and got shocked. Noticing this stovetop might be wired so there is no ground either, idk. Previous renters messed with the wiring box and the city sued them, the panel is still off so the breaker wires are all visible Im not touching it; the GFI outlet next to the stove has a green light on? but doesnt work, plug in a coffee maker or ? nothing. Just want to connect the LG stovetop the right way.
Just had a new dryer installed. I noticed that when I touch the dryer and the
faucet at the clothes washer I get a shock. Why?
You have standing potential between the chassis of the dryer and your plumbing. Check the wiring and grounding on your dryer. Make sure the ground is properly connected.
I fixed it. Come to find out that the tech put the neutral wire on the hot side, dummy. @@AppliantologyOrg
I understand that when a neutral and ground aren’t separated in a sub-panel the current going through ground can energize metal parts. However if the two wires are separated and there was a fault, why is the current traveling through the same ground safe? Thanks
Thank you
You're welcome