USB Cables for Audio: Interview with Rob Woodland from Curious Cables
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- čas přidán 6. 07. 2024
- Do USB cables make a difference for audio? What factors influence the sound of a USB cable? This interview with Rob from Curious Cables explores how and why he designed a USB cable for audio and what he discovered along the way. Check out Curious Cables here: curiouscables.com/
Here's that @veritasium video we discussed: • The Big Misconception ...
00:00 - Introduction
01:07 - Where did the journey begin?
04:38 - Was the design process subjective or objective?
08:09 - What are skin effect and dielectric constant?
15:02 - What's your technical background?
20:21 - How can digital cables alter the sound?
27:15 - What to look for in a USB cable for audio
29:37 - What metals and wire types work best for USB audio?
33:31 - How is shielding affecting the sound of cables?
38:47 - What else should we know about USB cables?
42:56 - Do you do blind listening tests?
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#audiophile #audiointerview #USBaudio - Věda a technologie
Here's a link to that @veritasium video czcams.com/video/bHIhgxav9LY/video.html
The problem is information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. The fact that the wires end up making a circuit cannot be instantly known therefore the light bulb will not instantly light up.
No-one said it would light up instantly - there is a short delay, but the point is that it occurs in a shorter time than it would take for the electrons/energy to travel through the wire at the speed of light.
@@PassionforSound I think that theory is wrong
@@PassionforSound how long do you think it would take if you removed the wires altogether?
I love Passion for Sound, but often times i feel Veritasium is where Logic goes to commit Seppuku for the sake of clickbait...
I will always be grateful to Rob for the advice to use a linear power supply with the up tone regen, astounding sound...
He's a good guy 🙂
Golden rule for me with cable's in general is to use the shortest cable possible & especially with USB; a 2" USB cable can perform better than a 2' one etc...
Definitely good to minimise distance when possible - lower impedance, less chance of collecting noise, etc.
Yes, because the longer the cable the more susceptible it is to noise.
Thanks for doing this review. Much appreciated.
Glad it was interesting 🙂
I just recently discovered your channel and I’ve watched a handful of your videos already. I applaud your work and admire your articulation on the subjects discussed. Bravo. I look forward to watching more. Keep up the excellent work!
Thanks so much! I'm glad you're enjoying the content. 🙂🙂
This conversation reminds me of the videos with Danny Richie at GR research especially when he explains the benefits of tube connectors. I find cables fascinating because it defies the conventional logic of all good quality cables sound the same. I have a box of cables that I have lovingly called my box of shame. These box is mostly made up of cables I kept only because I did not return them within the return policy window.
Haha. It's like that, isn't it!?
Hmm, think you can still have expectation bias when not doing blind A/B test. Its good to take notes, but how sure you are that subjective experience is not influenced by knowing which cable you listen? Its easy to take 2 USB outs from computer, stream to both simultaneously with Roon, have 2 same DACs, and just switch between inputs on the amp...
Not saying there is or isn't difference in the sound, but just this way of testing looks so flawed.
There's equal arguments in both directions and you can control bias by acknowledging it exists and testing your own assumptions - seeking to disprove your assumed hypothesis.
The challenge with blind tests is equally as strong. When going in blind, there is still an expectation bias - either expecting no difference or expecting some difference. The expectations in a blind test can lead to trying too hard to find differences and therefore psychoacoustically making things up or expecting no difference and therefore not actively trying to hear any differences.
Ultimately, there's no truly perfect way in a subjective endeavour like this. I believe the best approach is to listen blind or otherwise and take notes with an open mind. I like to then revisit the same test and challenge each assumption I've made during the first round. I.e. is Cable A really better? What about with a different test track? In what ways might Cable B actually be preferable? Etc. You pretty soon get a balanced picture of both without the initial issues of unconscious biases
Interesting discussion. Thanks Lachlan and Rob. Stay healthy both of you.
Thanks JJ. You too 🙂🙂
A great interview. I bought the original curious usb to use between a dap and my Stax Srm-D10 DAC/amp. Superb sounding cable and very well built.
Glad you enjoyed it (and your Curious cable)!
I hope your srm-d10 holds up. My battery died after 2.5 years of having it.
@@dubsondubs so far so good
Here is one approach to measure jitter in a USB cable connecting a music server and DAC using an Audio Precision:
1. Connect the music server's USB output to the Audio Precision analyzer's USB input using the test cable. Ensure the server and AP are synchronized to the same clock reference.
2. Enable the AP's USB receiver and configure it to extract the recovered clock. This allows measuring the clock recovered from the USB signal at what would be the DAC end. When a digital signal like USB is received after propagation through a cable, the receiver must regenerate the timing information/clock from the received data signal in order to correctly reproduce it.
This recovered clock is what would then be used by a DAC to sample and convert the incoming digital audio. By extracting and measuring that recovered clock directly with the Audio Precision analyzer, it allows characterizing any degradation compared to the reference clock.
3. Generate a reference clock signal from the AP and route it to an analyzer input. This provides a low jitter clock to compare against.
4. In the AP software, set up a clock quality measurement between the extracted USB clock and reference clock. Choose the appropriate plugin based on the clock frequency (e.g. AES/EBU, SPDIF). The AP has the proprietary software used to control the Audio Precision measurement device and view/analyze the results, specifically in the Audio Precision analyzer's control and measurement software (e.g. APx or SMA), set up a clock quality measurement between the extracted USB clock and reference clock. Custom software that is used to configure the various tests and measurements it can perform. This includes plugins and options to analyze clock signals and quantify parameters like jitter.
5. Select the jitter metrics to analyze - peak, RMS, jitter spectrum. Setting a longer measurement time captures lower frequencies.
6. Note any difference in measured jitter between using the test cable vs a known high quality cable. Differences would indicate added jitter from the cable.
7. Vary test parameters like cable length, bends/twists, proximity to noise sources. Correlating changes in jitter can identify weak points.
8. To isolate the cable's contribution, subtract reference cable measurements from the test cable readings.
This process allows precisely characterizing the cable's impact on recovered clock quality at the DAC by comparing directly to a clean reference using the Audio Precision's powerful clock analysis tools. Measuring SINAD at the DAC output with different USB cables is measuring the impact of jitter/noise indirectly, whereas directly analyzing the recovered clock signal gives more insights:
- SINAD looks at overall noise/distortion performance, but doesn't isolate the USB cable's contribution from other factors like the DAC's jitter rejection.
- Direct clock analysis precisely characterizes jitter from the cable before it even reaches the DAC. This reveals weaknesses even if the DAC reduces their audibility.
- Jitter spectrum details are lost with SINAD. Clock analysis shows if jitter is narrow band periodic or wide band random to help diagnose sources.
- Threshold of audibility depends on program material. But direct jitter measurement ensures performance remains low enough for any DAC/system.
- Correlating clock degradation with cable variables like length/bends helps engineer a design immune to those stressors.
- SINAD change may be masked by DAC variation between tests. But extracting the same clock ensures a controlled comparison.
While SINAD can indicate overall audible impact, direct clock analysis is needed to isolate the cable's influence, understand root causes, and guide design optimization. Hence, the two approaches complement each other.
Great information! Thank you
I'm with Rob in the type of sound that he likes. To hear each instrument sounding as if it's in the room and as it would do if I was actually there. I would love to have that good a sound Rob can get. It's one of thoughs things we try for.
I find your programs interesting and informative. Thanks.
Glad you liked it! Thanks for watching and commenting 🙂
Thanks for a great and insightful interview.
My pleasure. Glad you liked it
Years back i made A/C cables from instrument cable where the wires were encrysted w/ magnetic particles for mega-shielding + heavy braid and foil. Swapping it out my GF said "What did you just do?!!? ". They'd probably measure better but they hampered the soundstage significantly. Maybe someday people will develop measurements for what our ears can detect. We just don't yet have to tools to measure so it's still a black art.
Yes. There is someone doing detailed measurements and scientific testing of analog interconnects now so maybe he'll get to power and digital cables one day too.
I am wondering if a Jitter-Filter has any impact vis a vis cable choice/investment.
Thank you for your hard work. That was one of the best interviews you've ever made, we need more videos like that so that we can come closer to solving the mystery of analogue and digital transmission
It's so difficult to find unshielded or properly shielded cables for a reasonable price, it will probably mostly be a DIY thing for the foreseeable future. What would you personally recommend - having a longer usb cable or longer interconnects? What is the max length of the descent-branded OCC copper usb cable that won't degrade the sound? Could you recommend some good interconnects or power cables with no or proper shielding? I need my soundstage intact, my new heavily shielded cables remove the sence of open space
Based on my limited understanding, I'd definitely go for a shorter USB cable (2m or less) and longer interconnects. There seems to be pretty clear evidence that long USB cables cause issues.
So glad you found this interview so helpful!
This was great! I really appreciated how things were approached with an open mindset (contrary to very binary/rigid beliefs).
Glad you enjoyed it!
I have to say that this video and your Objective USB Cable Comparison Video have opened up my mind a bit (pun intended 😀), to the possible affects of a USB cable between my streamer and my DAC. I am a bit skeptical…but I think that you are VERY sincere with your investigations and that you leave things open-ended AND are curious about feedback. I am receiving a Volumio Rivo this week and I have to switch from HDMI to USB to my DAC…and you have me wanting to experiment a bit. Thanks for making me more curious!!! 👍🏼
I'm glad I've piqued your curiosity. That's my entire intention when sharing my own explorations of the topic. The cable comparison video was flawed, but I decided to leave it up because it can raise questions and continue the discussion and that's all that's needed IMO so that people like you try it for yourself and make up your own mind. I hope you enjoy the journey and have some fun discoveries like I have. 🙂🙂
Very good interview...
Glad you liked it!
What a godsend this interview was! Such valuable insight. I'm going through this USB cable auditionIng process now which is somewhat more complex because I have 2 legs of USB to my DAC split by an iFi Audio iGalvanic 3.0. Its sounding best with a Pangea Premier SE MkII on the fist leg to the iGalvanic but then with the cheaper basic Premier on the second leg going to the DAC. Go figure? If I use the more expensive MKII on the second leg, it sounds harsh, not as natural, flat, and bass texture disappeaars. It,s trial and error just like your guest said. And, it may not make sense to the logical mind...while your ears always tell you the truth. Thank you for this interview. He's fascinating.
I agree. He's had a lot of experience trying all different things - some can be explained and some not so much, but our ears need to be the final judge as he says (and other more objective cable designers too)
THANK YOU for touching on one particular topic, note taking.
Everyone in our hobby holds this preconceived notion that ABX double-blind tests are the be all end all. But what if you sat several people down, had them listen to two different things and write down the differences they perceived? And what if there is consistency in the reports that we’re provided? Wouldn’t that be “blind enough” and proof enough that there’s a difference? I think so.
I love the exposure our community is finally getting regarding actual cable science. I’m going to continue to thank you (and everyone else) for diving deeper into why this matters.
So glad you found this (and the other discussions) helpful.
Here's another great video you might like - very technical, but interesting: czcams.com/video/v3nZM2BP9Ew/video.html
Nice interview.
Glad you liked it!
I have one and never worked on my setup. Too expansive to return back to usa (I live in canada). Was the curius Link (6 inch) so I don't know if working one is good or not.
I haven't tried the Link. That's not good that it didn't work for you. I've had a number of their cables now and all have been perfect so I imagine it's a very unfortunate one-off. Sorry to hear that it happened to you when you're so far away for the return process ☹️
Ok but when we need some short usb C to usb C or micro to usb c quality sound cables for lets say dongle dacs what are our options? 😊. Curious doesnt make those short usb C cables as far as I am aware. And maybe we can also upgrade sound of our earman sparrow or the hidozs s9pro... 😁. And yes also many of those dongle dacs use asynchronous usb but quality cable still can make a difference right? What do you think for example about ADL furutech cables?
I haven't yet tried any quality, short OTG type cables. There's no reason that they shouldn't be just as important though.
What a great interview and learning experience! one question, do you think there might be a break in period for USB cables?
Glad you liked the interview. I'm not sure about burn-in on cables, but I do know that many of the manufacturers use burn-in machines to do this before they ship cables which makes me think there must be some benefit. Whether it's significant and audible is another matter and I can't answer that one.
@dhlabs Hello. Here's my question: micro usb to usb c cable, is that in your catalog? (I need to go from Android cell into SMSL M3 dac/amp) Thanks
I'm not sure what they make, but take a look on the Curious Cables website as I'm sure what they make will be listed on there
@@PassionforSound Thanks
I find that a better dac or cable also improves coherency, PRaT, and what's happening between the musical notes that affect transients, dynamics and soundstage.
I agree
I thought it was very telling that Rob isn't a fan of blind testing. I totally agree with him on the value of taking notes. Taking notes about sound without any presupposition has to be better. Being aware of our biases doesn't necessarily remove them. Very enjoyable video.
So glad you enjoyed it!
I know why he is not a fan of blind testing. And it's very simple !!!!
So you can measure the different frequency travels at different depths, but somehow you can't measure what comes out of a dac. Strange world audiophiles live in.
I know this is NOT relate it to the subject but PLZ do a comparison between HQplayer vs m scaler ... Thank you
I looked into that a while ago, but I honestly loathe HQ Player and can't bring myself to sift through all the settings and options so it's unlikely. I think someone would have to setup a Go Fund Me page and raise money to pay me for that one because I'm just not motivated to wade through it - sorry!
Whats that youtube video you mention?
Thanks for the reminder - added to the description now.
czcams.com/video/bHIhgxav9LY/video.html
Appreciate the insightful video!
One thing I wish you would've asked was the difference between active and passive usb cables and how they worked (the ones with a separate 5V line, for ex). I'm aware it has to do with some type of handshaking but other than that that's all I know.
My understanding is that some devices rely on the 5V lead to know that the DAC and source are connected - others don't. If you don't need the 5V handshake then removing the 5V power lead can help remove a noise source from the signal path, but there are too many DACs that rely on the 5V which is why most audio cables still include the 5V and aim to deal with the noise using insulation, separating from the main cable, etc.
@@PassionforSound thanks for some clarification! Too many dacs rely on them? The ones I've seen are mostly in the higher-end of things, but I could be wrong.
When I was testing the USB cards (Matrix, JCat, etc.) I found that none of the many DACs I had here would recognise the PC if the 5V power wasn't activated. I'm not sure about all the ins and outs of it
To see if your DAC does not require the 5v handshake - The + -5v pins on the USB cable can be de-activated by just a sliver of insulation tape.
If the DAC is recognised then you have effectively reduced noise down the USB cable -Nice tweak
Would like to know the system Rob uses for his listening tests thanks.i also think it should be manditory to provide hearing test results for all reviewer's...
I didn't think to ask him that one!
Knowing someone's exact hearing profile would be interesting when evaluating their opinions on products - great idea!
Samsung galaxy > $550 USB cable > apple dongle dac > earbuds that came with his phone
🤣
16:00 I keep echoing this sentiment. I just don't listen at the level where I, as an audio-enthusiast WELL vested in this hobby, can hear enough of a difference in cabling to spend a couple of hundred to improve my chain. Even though my listening is 100% digital. Even though I believe (don't know, believe) that cables can modify the sonic characteristics of your setup, it still doesn't make sense enough for me to spend the money there. I'll pad roll. I'll acoustically mod. I'll EQ. I'll maybe invest in a separate power supply or conditioner. Whether I'm right or wrong, I just do what makes sense to me in this hobby and refrain from condemning anyone else for their choices. Even if you want to buy the same Doorstoppers Darko uses. Doesn't affect me one iota. If you think it sounds better then more power to you.
When the laws and statutes are passed that requires you to buy a $600 dollar cable within 30 days of purchasing an audio device over $200.. then I'll grab my pitchfork. Can't remember where I put the torches though.
No need for the torches, just stick to the stuff that makes you happy 😉
The bare minimum usb cable requirements should be shielding and grounding. I think this makes the biggest difference. There are some cheap custom made cables on Chinese sites that are using the Canare cable.
i have 3 of those in various usb formats....Really nice cables,
Was very curious... Then I saw the prices.. I'm cured. I'm sure they are amazing but I'll leave them to you rich people. Great video though as always, very informative.
Yes, these aren't cheap. More of a last piece of the puzzle type purchase 🙂
That is a man who lives the life of a fanatic in his audiophile quest! For it takes one to know one!! I wish you could bring him in for an indepth look at this man's journey specifically with power supplies!!! You and I are on this quest currently...love yah. Don't pay attention to the cable critics that come out like roaches when the lights are out (in their minds!!)
Thanks for the support and comradery! 😉
What most people don't get in the whole cable controversy is that anything electric can have a high efficiency or have low efficiency... Once you know that, you know that all cables don't all sound the same, depending on the tech, materials and implementation. It's like a car... A car that's warmed up works at a higher efficiency than a car that just started up...its true if you believe it or not
Great point!
I have done a few usb cable shootouts and the consensus is that usb cables can sound way different with different dacs. We did a shoot out with a $600 Wire World Platinum 7, a $150 WW Starlight Red, a $600 Lightspeed and a $40 Pangea. The DAC used was my Luxman DA-06 a $5000 DAC. The Platinum 7 sounded the best. The Starlight Red sounded muddy in comparison. The Lightspeed was the most detailed but way too bright. The Pangea sounded thin and bright.
Interestingly, the person that owns both the Platinum 7 and Lightspeed, uses the Lightspeed in his system because it does not sound bright. The Platinum 7 uses solid silver wires. It sounds detailed, yet smooth at the same time. It is musical with a buttery top end, liquid midrange and good heft to the bottom end in my system which includes a Pass X250 amp, BAT VK51se preamp and Magnepan 1.6 speakers with dual Martin Logan subs.
I love your video's by the way. They seem very honest and true.
Thanks for sharing your experiences!
Oh no boi, you done did it.. 🔌💰
Lol. Yep 😁
So I finally got a decent DAC and I am wondering if there is a potential dip in audio quality if my bit depth is too high for the source? The Topping Dac defaults to 32 bit 48000 but most music is 16 bit 41000 and I hear much of games are 24 bit 48000. Is 32 helping or no?
You'll generally want to use an exclusive, bit-perfect connection to your DAC via a dedicated music playback software. If you're operating system is resampling the audio it will degrade the quality so it's not about the bit-depth or sample rate so much as the poor quality resampling being done by your OS.
You can check out simple, free software like Foobar to setup a bit-perfect connection and see what difference you can hear.
@@PassionforSound Okay but will that work for games or only music?
Only music. It will be good enough for gaming though that I wouldn't worry too much about it for that. Maybe try changing your OS settings to output 48kHz, 16-bit and see how that sounds because I'm pretty sure that's the native sample rate for most computer audio and might therefore have less meddling from the OS. Just an idea.
@@PassionforSound Thanks will do. :)
This topic is interesting. Unfortunately, I can't hear the difference between cables. I tested many different cables along the entire audio chain, from the computer, to my dac, from the dac to my amp, and from my amp to my speakers. I've never been able to detect a difference. I can tell the difference between different dacs and amps, but never between cables. I'm not sure if I should feel jealous or not since I can use the cheapest cables with no perceived loss of sound quality. I can just buy the ones I think look the coolest.
Sounds like you're lucky not hearing the difference. It's a rabbit hole AND a can of worms 😁
It's the Bermuda triangle of audio....
Yep 🙂
After watching this video I swapped USB cable in my DAC. Unfortunately there is no audible difference.
Cheap USB cable that came with my DAC sounds as good as expensive audioquest cable LOL
Upsampling to 1.5 ghz in HQPlayer also works just fine.
In my system I like 7notes audio. Has great synergy with chord hugo dac
I haven't tried 7notes yet. Thanks for sharing your experiences
Try a Ghent usb cable. It is silver plated copper and it sounds great with my son's Chord Qutest and it won a usb cable shoot out with this DAC. It was very surprising as 1 meter costs $40 usd. It beat out a WW Starlight 7 Red, AQ Carbon and Oyaide Class d+ Class A version 2.
Cool. Thanks for the tip!
I thought the Supra Excalibur was your go to USB cable? ;)
Nope. I discussed at the end of the Excalibur review that it depends on the DAC. Overall the Curious Evolved is my favourite USB cable so far.
@@PassionforSound Did you ever tried the FTA Callisto USB cable? It can be interesting to compare them.
Hi :), many people could hear the difference but somebody just cant realize what he is hearing. It all comes down to training. Just to realize what to focus on. But many people just dont have their hearing sensitive enough🤷♂. Thats also alright though. But it is tuff sometimes to convince somebody that you can hear what he cant, and than everything is snakeoil of course 😄
Very true. As I understand it, everyone has the physical ability and it just comes down to learning/understanding and practice.
I still don’t understand why these cables are so expensive in general. I got that this cost in the annealing process though. Why not just eliminate the power cable portion I just use the USB connection without it since you’re not powering anything
A lot of the expense will come down to the R&D time and expense plus the resulting performance level (i.e. not just parts costs).
You can't always remove the power wire because lots of devices use it as a handshake device so the two ends of the signal path won't recognise each other without it if it's gone.
Because they are shameless scammers.
have you seen my comment in your other video about this usb cable here in your channel?
please do not make confusion between magnetic field and electrical noise... the first one has to be fighted with geometry of the wires inside the cable... the second one is mainly RF (like that one from you mobile...or fromthe fridge... or neon lamp etc) and can be fixed via shield, shield do not work against magnetic noise unless you use very special material, very expensive, normally used in military application.
Anyway...very interesting video, the cable I've done use 7N cooper... I will check about silver wire and maybe will do another one just to compare
Unfortunately, CZcams seems to have deleted it ☹️
There's no confusion between magnetic fields and electrical noise. We're talking about the electro-magnetic fields (two different, interacting fields). Check out the video in the description for a link to the video we're referring to - it explains it far better than I can.
@@PassionforSound I tried right now postagain the two patents but... incredible... 20 sec after I posted the info youtube cancelled them... crazy!
Yeah, YT is pretty harsh with the deletions. Sorry about that
@@PassionforSound so I've tried again putting the info about documents in different way, in a way that I'm having doubt the IA is able to recognize... and has been deleted again... interesting
Yeah, I don't understand it. I've had other viewers get deleted comments for completely innocent posts - it's strange
Honestly I couldn't agree with most of this interview, many arguments seem to suggest that you should fool yourself into believing an expensive cable will make a difference (you shouldn't do blind tests, you shouldn't listen to measurements, you should have a high-end system to hear the difference). I'm not a 100% objectivist, but when it comes to cables it's totally measurable. I used a very cheap RCA cable before and then upgraded to a Mogami one and found no difference, I also had the Sundara stock cable and then upgraded it to a custom cable using Mogami as well, still no sonic difference, big ergonomic difference though.
I think cable manufacturers should be more honest, if there is a measurable advantage then they should talk about it no matter how small it is, if not then talk about the prestige, both have a fan base and a place in market, nothing wrong with that when you are fully transparent that you're selling art not science. Great video though, I like to hear all sides.
One of the challenges here is that there are things which are measurable (some manufacturers like Iconoclast rely heavily on these), but there is a lot that's not fully understood about what we can/can't perceive and what aspects of cable design can affect those perceptions. Sadly, it's difficult or maybe even impossible to say what is definitively correct from a measurement and theory point of view so there is a need to rely on what the designer hears. Add to that the fact that there is then no definitive way to determine what sounds "right" and cables remain as subjective as every other part of the music playback and listening experience.
@@PassionforSound When it comes to DACs, Amps and similar devices, I agree those are too complex to say for sure if measurements capture the whole picture, but when it comes to cables I don't see the delicacy. The cable should simply deliver the signal without distortion and most decent cables do that. I respect the designer choices and opinions and would like to see them prove the benefits, because what I'm seeing (and I'm not specifically talking about Curious Cables) is dismissive of science and mostly trust-based.
Rob is a different kind of designer because he's not an engineer. That doesn't mean he can't make a good cable though.
On the other hand there are manufacturers building excellent cables based on measurements and data rather than listening tests so both approaches can be valid IMO.
As for the delicacies, consider that a cable designer has to balance the following things I know about and more that I don't (changing one of these cascades into changing the others whether you want to or not): resistance, capacitance, inductance, speed of signal transfer (which varies with frequency), interference and the need for shielding, dielectric constant (how much energy the dielectric absorbs and then releases back into the cable), cable thickness, cable material, longevity and usability. It actually might be more complex than designing an amp or DAC, particularly a simple integrated chip-based product where you can follow the chip manufacturer's specs and produce a solid measuring, solid sounding device fairly easily (in the scheme of things). There is definitely an art and science to balancing all those interacting variables in a cable. How that's achieved will vary from one manufacturer to another
@@PassionforSound Physically a cable cannot add anything to the signal, it can only take from it by acting as a high pass filter or a low pass filter or both, those effects are caused by resistance and capacitance, the other variable is poor shielding that let noise distort the signal. The reality is most decent cables ($20 or so) do lower all those effects to inaudible range. I respect your point of view but this whole cable thing is not shady IMO, I would love to see a designer pass a randomized blind test.
Every cable on the planet is a filter. The question comes down to HOW each cable is altering the sound, not whether or not they are.
Check this video out to better understand what I mean: czcams.com/video/v3nZM2BP9Ew/video.html
This video didn't push me to get a curious cable because they are super expensive. But it did motivate me to buy a $50 cable people online have said worked well. So what the heck, won't break the bank and I can give it the old subjective, non blind test and see what all the hoopla is all. Should be fun to see if a USB cable that cost real money and has fancy stuff vs one that is thrown in with a dac has any sound differences. Love the content though! Even if I'm not convinced on this part yet, USB cables mattering. We will see what happens.: )
Good on you for trying with your own ears. Drop back in and tell us how you go...
@@PassionforSound Thanks will do. I know I gotta review the 5 key things: Bass, Mids, Treble, Soundstage, and transient's/leading edge of notes. Pretty sure that was your list. I will try to give it the honest try. I am just at the point of almost believing everything ASR has been saying that it could be all in our heads, a lot of these tweaks. But I am also in the middle, because I know and have heard how much soundstage can change with filters/tweaks or at least I thought it did. So this will be a key test for me. This is fun! I’ll try to report back by next weekend.
All you can do is try. Also, try doing extended listening if you can. Give yourself time to forget what you're listening for and just take in the music. That can help to then notice if there is a difference once you switch
@@PassionforSound Will try. Of course, Amir would say that's because when your focus changes, you hear differences. Even he notices them. It's not the spoon that bends, only yourself. But I'll see what I think. :)
@@PassionforSound My initial thoughts with the Pangea Audio Premier XL USB cable (signal end plugged into computer USB, and power end connected to Topping P50 LPS) compared to the USB cable that came with my Gustard r26 dac...and my thoughts are very positive towards the Pangea XL. Who knows if I would be able to tell in a blind test, but it does "seem" like it's a more powerful sound, with better imaging/better timbre, and less cluttered. Now is this just me imagining all of it... I don't know. But I know why people get into this.
Dont lie on Silver being way more conductive Silver is 105 and copper 100 !! 😊 Nice cable . I might buy 1 even tho all my usb cables are open and no wall of sound ! My soundstage is huge open airy ! Oyieda cable slightly dark not as open as Audioquest charcol ! It comes down to open or dark blackish cheapos present the wall some shitty base control n transients . 😊
What if you live in an area being served by a Internet backbone router that is not Hifi?
Hi Jonas, I don't understand the question - sorry! Can you explain a bit more what you mean?
@@PassionforSound My point is, why is the digital protocols used for local data transport not as error resistant as the tech used to send data from the streaming servers to our homes?
Everyone seem to take for granted that the bits reaching our local applications are perfect. But that we are also utterly incapable to build local data transport that delivers data in a conveyor-agnostic way.
Ah, that's because of the importance of timing at the final stage. For whatever reason, USB audio doesn't buffer the file before playback. That means there's no chance for error correction. My understanding is that the buffering that occurs when you commence streaming allows for error correction in the file transfer from the server, but once the transport sends the USB signal things are different.
I can only imagine that USB audio is not buffered due to the need for very low latency playback in situations such as recording, editing, etc.
@@PassionforSound " for error correction in the file transfer from the server" - i recommend you read a book by Candace Leiden , Marshall Wilensky about TCP/IP.
Ummm. TCP/IP is a network protocol. We're talking about USB audio.
SPC cables always sounded harsh for me
I feel the same in almost all cases. That's for analog cables though. It seems digital cables might be a little different
No measurements?
No! And don't talk that foolishness, you've got ears so use them!! It's obvious.. (I'm just kidding and I'm same time wondering about the missing measurements too.. 😀)
This is a, well-placed, brick within the wall that is the, audiophile, institution.
Too bad that a, great, many are, so, adamant (just-ah-spinning-their-wheels) about such a, subjective, field.
‘Nice treat...
I agree that it's a shame many can't move beyond what can be measured without realising that measurements are an incomplete picture. In the end, the best thing is for people to try it for themselves so long as they can do so with an open mind
In 17.30 it's that some RMA noise??!
It's all too vague. He can't say why USB makes a difference. That's not good enough when you charge a lot of money for a short piece of cable. I've been into music since I was 9. A passion for music comes with real top end kit in time. I've checked out msny cables Inc USB. I could never tell the difference on a blind listening test done with friends. The Dac is the bit that matters. And you will need appropriate speakers and amps. Any shielded USB will sound exactly the same as the top cable in his range. Try it yourself. I've not tried his cables, but USB cables by other companies costing even more. I couldn't tell the expensive cable from the unbranded shielded cable that was 8 UK pounds. Don't be misled. They are businesses out to make loads of money. Spend the max you can afford on the kit and some on decent shielded cables.
czcams.com/video/u6lx1ntNoxE/video.html&ab_channel=LinusTechTips
I don't really understand the subjectiveness to these usb cables. Either they are not changing voltage fast enough that they are flipping bits they shouldn't be, or they aren't. A cable can either be good or bad no? there are expensive cable testers to check these exact things. If a digital cable is "colouring" the sound isn't that just the cable failing to be accurate. Flipping bits seems like the wrong place to be trying to colour the sound anyway, should we be leaving that for later in the audio chain.
Theoretically that should be true, but there's definitely more going on because I've tried lots of cables and they all have their own character. The better cables (not necessarily the more expensive ones) tend to produce a smoother and more spacious sound. As to exactly why, I still can't say.
I think human hearing is so subjective and imperfect that some people hear differences in sound where there is none objectively speaking. I don't think anyone has ever demonstrated they can hear any difference in blind test. I have nothing against cables. I have some pure silver headphone cables, audioquest usb cables, audiophile AC cable. Nothing of this makes any difference whatsoever.
You're right about our hearing. One of the challenges we face is that the same biases that can lead to people hearing things that aren't there will also lead to people not hearing differences that are there - it all depends on your starting expectations. That's where listening and not taking without worrying about which is which, which is better, etc. is so important. If we just evaluate each product for its own sound qualities and compare later, you're likely to get the best, most accurate results (recognising that personal preferences, sensitivities, etc. are all still at play)
The secret to a good cable is having all those relaxed molecules that is so chilled out that they add a sense of Euphoria to the music.
Haha. You might be onto something
Rob is also displaying the nuances of his retail background-He raises both eyebrows very often.
This indicates "Are you Listening" or "Do you Believe me"
He is not too dissimilar to an American evangelist
The Curious USB cable is over priced period.
The Supra Excalibur USB cable has been tested by this reviewer and found to exceed the SQ achieved by the Curious , at half the price.
Its a no brainer for me.
Are you saying I thought the Excalibur was better? If so, that wasn't the case. The Excalibur is great, but the Curious Evolved is still my favourite USB cable.
nice shirt
Thank you 😁
After watching this I’m actually quite concerned. A product that is mass produced for less than 10 bucks are priced 100 times that and the person developing and building them have a. ZERO subject evident of it being better than $10 and zero scientific testing during the development phase and b. Has no electrical engineering background but has “good ears”. And so many people are praising it’s philosophy and have no doubt about it whatsoever
Don't mistake him not being an engineer and trusting his ears as meaning that no research or theory went into the designs. The point he was making was that he selected wire and shielding based on scientific principles/theories and then tested the results by ear because there are elements of our hearing and perception that can't be measured for still because we don't yet understand them.
I'm not defending his approach as optimal, but the results speak for themselves however he arrived there.
tRuSt tHe $ciEncE!
😂🤣
snake oil sellers are fascinating ....
snake oil commenters arent 🥱
I was disappointed Rob was not challenged more on his claims.
After 10 minutes I had enough and had a list two pages long of comments
Where are his test results or at least double blind tests of this cable?
The public are becoming more astute with CEO's making claims, without evidence of objective testing -Claiming having "great Ears" is not enough.
ASR found that the biggest measurable reduction in USB cable noise was in fact the length of the cable.
The best, being significantly better ,was a combined Type A/B USB adapter- Not really practicable -although interesting to see the noise floor drop away.
I'm not qualified to challenge and debate technicalities of the cables (or other gear) so my approach is to ask the questions that I and my patrons have about a product to hopefully get a range of responses and then let viewers decide for themselves. I'd you're not a fan of the product or the designer's approach, that's totally ok
Cool story. So the cables aren't truly engineered to solve a problem, rather curated from bits of EE theory and science and ultimately, a subjective listening test to determine quality and success.
This doesn't mean we have to abandon real science to evaluate the end result. Since all these cable sommeliers state they can instantly hear the improvement and their cable is best, how about a scientifically controlled blind AB with the creator? Can he successfully pick his cable over another without benefit of sight?
And why don't we have this data or perform these tests?
Answer: the results won't favor those selling expensive USB cables.
That's my final answer. I'd love to be shown otherwise, as a man of reason and science. I'll even grant you that there are limits to our scientific measurements or understanding of transmission line and cable signalling. But why should I abandon science for anecdote when you could still put the subjective preference test under the scrutiny of real science, and publish meaningful results?
I agree that a combination of science and subjectivity is preferable (and many brands take this approach). The reality is that science is limited in what it can measure and our ears and brains are fallible as well so no one approach can be perfect (including blind AB testing which is let down by other issues like our brains seeking potential differences which may not be there and creating errors as a result that aren't helpful data, but just processing errors)
@@PassionforSound I agree that our brains and perceptions are fallible, that's why I cringe at the subjective sommelier approach to cabling. Especially when these aren't $40 instead of $4. Some are $40,000!
And we get pseudo-science about dialectrics and strand geometry, when in most cases the resistance, impedance, and conductance values are what matter (e.g. speaker cables). And yet some of the manufacturers selling exotic speaker cables don't even bother to measure and publish those knowable and important scientific values for any given length of their cable! Those values could absolutely impact the synergy between, say, a given amp and speaker, and research in that area would be welcome to understand the type of cable that would best perform for your particular setup.
I'm hoping that more informative users will drive the industry away from voodoo and more towards solid research and science. Repeatable, proven results.
I'm sure it's fun for wealthy folks to curate and experiment with pricey cables. I'm sure the wine collector market are prime candidates, as they too regularly fool themselves with imagined results from the rare and expensive. But hey, if you believe it's better, it's probably better. So what do I know.
The power of placebo is a very interesting topic of its own. I believe there's a balance somewhere in between where there are things we can't easily measure (or predict from the measurements due to the complex interactions of variables) and things that we can. I think it's important to have an open mind about the things we don't fully understand while also referencing what we do understand and then, ultimately, making up our own minds based on our personal experiences and preferences. There is no number on a page as yet that can tell the story of how any audio device will actually sound and there is no definitive way to know how someone else is perceiving a piece of equipment compared to how you or I might.
@@PassionforSound all good points and I agree. I can't shop for speakers solely on a preference score and replace that with actual experience. But we do know that speakers will change the sound in a room, with a given system, at a given position, etc. I'm not sure we can always say the same with cables. It's .. murky waters.
I'd be impressed with the high end guys that claim they can pick out cheap cables in a system if they stepped up to the plate.
There's a story that reminds me of the high end audio world that was published some years back. Again, with the expensive wine crowd. I believe it was at Harvard or another university where certain professors fancied themselves as connoisseurs of expensive wines and had a club where they would invite certain select graduate students to join and bring new fine wines to taste. I suppose that one of the students was fully done with the colorful language of the fine wine enthusiasts (the likes of chocolatey mid range, airy highs and the verbiage we often hear in audio) and decided to purposely bring in cheap wines to see if the "experts" would pick them out and to confirm that they indeed had trained their tastes for these expensive wines.
Or rather, that there WAS INDEED some special, immeasurable quality to these fine wines not present in the cheaper lot. Well, you probably guessed the results. From an academic perspective, it was random. Imaginary. Made up. They would sip cheap wine and proclaim some of the same masterful language about its character and construction. And were wholly embarrassed that the student was recording the findings and would later publish the results.
I'm wondering how far the results would be from that experiment if we blindly listened to $30, $300, and $30,000 speaker cables on a nightly basis?
I definitely think that there are cheap products that perform as well or better than some expensive products. I also know that there are expensive cables that don't sound better than cheaper ones. Beyond that, it's all about what makes a person happy I think.
I don't want to be that guy and I do appreciate the video and have nothing against anyones opinions, but I feel very confident in claiming that this is absolute bollocks.
The mentioned electrical phenomena have absolutely nothing to do with digital transfer. Any up to standard spec digital cable will work identically to any other (long lengths a separate issue) unless there are design issues in the devices at either end and that would be related to noise/interference that a subpar DAC design, for example, allows to happens, but definitely not to the actual signal itself as it is infact data in analog form. There are no dimensions of variance that matter.
Whether the data comes in via optical, USB cable, bluetooth, ethernet or in hand written letters that are then manually written into a buffer with a keyboard shouldn't have any effect on how it is translated into an analog signal. That is the very purpose of digital information transfer. It would be the same as claiming that that routing your Tidal lossless stream via a VPN through another country to avoid the under-sea cables is a good idea since that makes the music sound wet.
There often are very minor differences due to issues with DAC design for example, but the cable doesn't affect this unless there are severe technical design failures. Like in this video, no one can even come up with a fantastical potential explanation.
It is effectively certain that no one can notice a difference between a 1$ USB cable and a 1000$ one in a double blind test on a system that doesn't have noise issues in the design.
That said, having good quality, well designed products made from good materials is, of course, a great thing and can cause a subjectively worthwhile experience since the listening experience is comprised of many things beyond the sound itself.
Also you can buy an AC cable for 1$ so surely the regulations are not an impediment to producing a high-end one? Unless the claim is that the regulations don't allow for a superior design then the most basic stuff on the market.
Enough for the rant, I like your channel and even this video. Keep it up!
Try it yourself and hear the difference.
I think that's the key in the end - try it for yourself and see what you think. There's insufficient understanding of hearing science to say definitively what is/isn't audible so the only way to truly know is to listen for yourself with an open mind and test biases for and against your experiences.
@@DrJum Okay, I have here the USB cable that came with a Playstation 3 controller and a Supra USB cable that is commonly sold in hifi shops. The Supra cable also costs literally a 100 times more.
Could I, or a few studio professionals I could ask to try, hear a difference with these or do I need something fancier? Any song suggestions that might help reveal the difference or certain aspects of the sound? Soundstage was mentioned in this video a few times so maybe that's one.
@@hartyewh1 After being in this hobby for some time and having a good enough system and training my brain enough I can hear many differences between all sorts of cables. I used to not hear a difference even when trying in the earlier days. I have spent more time than I’d like to admit comparing USB, XLR, RCA, headphone and speaker cables and I have not found 2 different models that sound exactly the same yet. The differences I can observe are purely tonal. Eg more or less bass, midbass, mids, highs, etc. when it comes to spatial difference in cables it generally if not always related to the tonal difference providing that spatial variance. For example a cable that lowers mids a couple dB will make everything sound a bit more spacious and less intimate. Hope this helps.
@@hartyewh1 Use a song you know well so you’re not surprised by random sounds and instruments popping in. Doesn’t have to be audiophile quality. Try to test just a short period like 3-5 seconds and try to remember what you hear by describing it… is it chesty, is it harsh, is it realistic, etc. then quickly switch cables and listen to that few seconds again and describe again. Sellers of Flowers by Regina Spektor will tell you a lot about a cable in the first 6 seconds. Focus on her sibilance from the S sounds. If you’re highs are high they’ll be harsh and grating. If they’re too low it won’t sound harsh or resolving. You want to try and find a sweet spot to your preference. If you don’t hear a difference in those 2 specific cables there may not be a difference or maybe it’s too small to pickup on. Once you’ve heard a more stark difference the smaller ones will be easier to pickup on.
Congrats.....You "Interview" a guy "Hearing" more auditory Hallucinations than you do !!
You ask a guy who makes $350.00US (.8Meter) cables about how important cables are to sound? Really? Snake oil comes to mind.
No, I asked him what goes into them and how he approaches the process 🙂
I already know they're important because I've tried a whole bunch (good and bad) to see what's true and not true for myself
Why don't you invite a telecom engineer or an electrical engineer for a change?
I'm actually hoping to do that, but it needs to be an engineer with some audio experience (i.e. not a telecom engineer). You wouldn't ask a dermatologist for expert advice on brain surgery, but they're both doctors.
@@PassionforSound Audio engineering is a branch of telecom. And telecom is what deals with signal propagation in general. Especially USB (audio engineers usually don't deal with gigital USB signal propagation because they know it just works)
Ah, sorry. I didn't realise and thought telecom was general voice and data transmission
@@PassionforSound Yes, though you can specialise in audio engineering. Digital signal propagation however is a very general and well understood topic under telecom.
EQ is free and makes an audible difference, so why spend money on expensive cables that no one hears a difference in blind tests?
For one thing, EQ damages the signal fidelity by altering phase and truncating small signals.
Thanks for confirming this. Definitely unsubscribing from this snake oil place. This is like Alex Jones of audio.
Audio cables is the biggest snake oil ever xD yes there is a difference between a cheap unshielded £1 cable and a £30 cable made by a good company like chord , audioquest , atlas etc but all the magic cables that cost £30 and above is pure snake oil and sound difference is negligible and you only believe that it sounds different for better or worst due to your preconception of having a new cable
I remember working for BB in undergrad and buying Monster cables at employee discount for pennies while their consumer price was quite quite more. Yes there is a difference like you said from a cheap cable to a well made less cheaper one. Never worth hundreds of dollars.
I would also like for reviewers to have a hearing test and show that too since sound perception is based on hearing perception.
Here's a video that clearly explains the types of science behind cables sounding different AND showing the lengths of testing and research required to properly design a true, high-end cable. No snake oil here - just science and lots of time and effort: czcams.com/video/v3nZM2BP9Ew/video.html
haha it is snake oil IMO
Did you watch the video I just linked in the comment above?
@@PassionforSound thanks , no I haven't watched it yet it's 3h long and you posted it 20min ago .
I was talking from my own experience , I might not know all the science I am no engineer but I had a chance of trying expensive cables not only usb but also rca cables and headphone cable upgrades .
In my experience in order to notice the slight difference in sound the cables offer you must trully have a high end system and by high end I mean 1k dac + 1k amp + 1k headphones if we are talking about speakers 3k won't cut it.
The majority of people don't have this kind of setups , headphone wise people settle for the likes of sennheiser hd650 + 500$ DAC/amp and the cables do not matter there
Unsubbed, you already know why.
Nicely Done.
You seem to genuinely enjoy these interviews and I usually come away with a tidbit. Good on you.
Patricia Barber :)
The point that stood out for me - You can hear the difference in a good quality system.
IMHO I don't think reviewers ( in general ) stress enough that anyone with a dac from $100-$500 maybe till $1000 is not in that category and most likely won't hear any difference.
Not resolving enough might be the term.
I think Rob mentioned ( I'll paraphrase ) This is for a person with that good quality system that is looking to squeeze out the last drops of goodness from there system.
Your thoughts ?
I completely agree and I often stress in my accessory reviews (cables, power supplies, etc.) that these types of upgrades should generally be the last thing you buy because you'll get more bang for buck from upgrading components than cables, etc. I do think cables can improve a lower level system, but the improvement will be much less obvious depending on just how high or low level the system is