I think I'll need to re read it in 5 ish years because I really struggled through it. I really enjoy some other classics, but I struggled with Montiel Christo, but I also don't enjoy revenge story's usually
I'm one of those who after a long break of many many years got back into reading via a classic. I read Wuthering Heights on a whim and was totally floored someone could write a novel like this more than 150 years ago. It was not what I expected at all but then again I didn't know what I did expect. Absolutely loved the book. While wouldn't say that classics are boring, I do agree that you probably need a certain mindset to get into some of them. Patience is a virtue that is not amiss here as many classics take time for the story to unfold. If one can get into them though, there is lots to discover. One thing that's so fascinating and why they survived to this day is their relatability. It may have been written more than 100 years ago but many themes, problems these characters deal with or topics are just as relevant today as they were back then. But then again, not every classic is for everyone and that is totally fine.
Following on the violence conversation. I think the way the violent/explicit scenes are treated by the author is really important. Following the torturer's example, to me The First Law by Joe Abercrombie (one of my favourite series of all time), even though it is explicit and the characters are despicable, it never felt that the book was praising this behaviour, and that's the line for me.
My top picks for adaptation would be; Sun Eater, Powder Mage, Gentlemen Bastards & First Law. Now im not saying these are the best or anything, but i think they could all be adapted very well for screen. Thanks for the discussion! Really fun to watch. (Oh and a mistborn video game!)
500 pages is too much. What I agree with tho is : Brando Sando could use a way stranger editor (or let the man/woman work) because for sure a cut of 20% would not harm his latest works but would force him write more careful. He might plan his books that’s true but not write them very carefully and check them. Someone did a check on Way of Kings and found a lot of typos that should not be in them. An editor should find them. Just an example. As for Harry Potter I would say for Americans and UK readers it’s hard to see how much the impact was outside the English speaking community. Because I saw on tv that entire families waited in lines for the next books… here? We didn’t have that. It wasn’t a thing. Before the movies the Harry Potter phenomenon wasn’t really strong. Then for a while (movie duration) it was very popular for sure, but now it’s not really… the adult (Harry Potter adults if you will) are not so found for it like the Americans or British pairs. So we have to see that part as impact. So when it comes to what we should give for the kids? Percy Jackson or His Dark Materials or whatever? Give something fun. And every country has his own version not translated to English. Classics are not dull or boring. Choose wisely. But also not every classic is an action or more like “impulse” heavy book just as we need today to be stimulated. Hence the take on Cosmere will be the greatest. No. But the classics need some knowledge on the era when the certain book was written. Put it to context. Different mindset to read it.
Hooray for more unpopular opinions! It would be boring if we all agreed all the time on every bookish topic. Wonderful to see Johanna and Tori for this episode!
Two amazing guests whom I enjoy tremendously! So happy to hear everyone’s take on LOTR. I don’t feel so alone. HP is everything to me, but can totally understand someone not loving it without all the nostalgia I have surrounding it. I really enjoyed the three-person format, it worked really well here.
Yep. I read the HOBBIT and that was enough 40 page descriptions of trees for me 😉 Harry Potter films are great 🙌🏻 it was not written for my generation 🤷♀️
The explicit language conversation was interesting since it seemed to ignore the fact that for secondary world fantasy, we're reading what would be an adaptation. So the characters in that world aren't saying curses as we know them, but in-world curse words that have been adapted so that we understand what they're saying. If that's the case, then why, or how, would that ruin the suspension of disbelief?
One of the things that irk me is when authors use modern day swear words in fantasy books. It's your own setting, go wild and be creative! Invent new explicit curse words and slang that fit the world.
@@Zivilin, but that's exactly my point. If secondary world fantasies are translated works, then the translator would do their best to find the closest comparable curse in whatever the work was translated into. For example, if you look at translations from English to other languages, the curses often change to something more recognizable in that other language/culture.
See, I just finished “The Old Man and the Sea” and absolutely loved it. Most of the negative reviews I’ve read complain about the “boring” or “dull” plot, but as someone who could care less about the plot if the characters are compelling I enjoyed it a lot. Classics, just like modern books, put different story elements in the spotlight (character, plot, setting, etc.) and they definitely depend on what you value as a reader. If you read “The Old Man and the Sea” for the plot you probably won’t enjoy it as much as someone who read it for the character of the old man.
I would not call Old Man and the Sea boring. I would say Old Man and the Sea has a terrible ending. TV Tropes calls this a Shaggy Dog Story. The whole point is to catch a big fish to survive.
@@samsampier7147i agree, not boring but the ending was too unsatisfactory. Either make it a fully dramatic ending or make it a happy one, which Hemingway didn't go for. 😢
@@samsampier7147 I can totally understand understand the disappointment with the ending, I too was disappointed. However I think the disappointment was intended and the loss of the fish may in some way represent the loss of the old man’s way of life being left behind as time went on. Was the ending satisfying? Certainly not. I don’t think that makes it bad. Not all stories have good or satisfying endings. At the end of the day I think the book was a “Journey before destination” kind of read and I get that’s not for everyone, but it worked for me.
Love this segment. Great idea! I still love Harry Potter and why I think it is amazing is that all these fantasy series we currently love will eventually be forgotten and Harry Potter will live on for generations. It'll be passed down for decades a la Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia.
@@xiiir838 yes, also, it’s imo easier to adapt in live action. I am afraid if they’ll be able to do the justice of the story and character in animation.
@Johanna - I had to read Hemingway in high school and found his novels unbelievably dull (If you thought Rhe Old Man and the Sea was dull, read For Whom the Bell Tolls) but his SHORT STORIES are fabulous. And Rebecca is fabulous. Jane Eyre is good too, but you either love her or want to slap her. Your comment about the classics not being for everyone is spot on. Many of them are very good but their style is significantly different than today's styles. If you are not a.strong reader, you will probably will hate them. However, if there is an audiobook (with a good reader), that may be an excellent alternative.
Thanks for recommending For Whom the Bell Tolls! I'm not the most well-read when it comes to classics, but aside from The Old Man and the Sea, I've loved every classic I've read so far!
I agree with how it is annoying how SA can be handled like Fantasy like how one of my favorite series, Berserk, does not do it particularly well. It is integral and important to the story but I’ve heard the depictions of people responding to it aren’t very good.
Lol... fun conversation, and many interesting questions/opinions out there! Think I was pretty much in line with most of your responses to them! It is refreshing to watch videos like this where we can disagree, but still point out why and be respectful of differing opinions. Wish more of the book community (and world) reacted like this! Thanks Johan, Tori, and Johanna!
I can't suspend my disbelief in a fantasy story unless it's completely written in a dead language. It's not any good unless I can't understand one word! That's real fantasy!
I finished reading Way of Kings recently and honestly it was too long. I kept reading about how great the ending was and I just came away feeling underwhelmed. There are lots of other books that are more respectful of the readers time with more compelling characters. I get why it has an audience, but I am not that audience
I started with fantasy and then migrated to the classics for a break. When I went back to fantasy 6 months later, I realised how badly written most of it is and have been reading the classics ever since
Great video. 24:30 For Deadwood HBO series the use of explicit language was changed from the realistic period language to modern curse words. 1870's people used cusswords like nincompoop or tarnation. Test audiences thought the characters sounded like the cartoon character Yosemite Sam. Call it translation convention. Like an in universe character translating all the fantasy languages and curse words into modern English. I do like the fictional swearing in Battlestar Galatica like, "Frak!"
Agree with Tori’s take on sexual violence in fantasy. Obviously she didn’t spell out the specifics but I do think it can so often be handled in a way that just isn’t appropriate given the seriousness of it. Obviously that isn’t to say that it can’t be used in stories at all, and it also isn’t to say that it should be tiptoed around (there is such a thing as being too sensitive!), but just that if an author is going to include it as an element in their story I think they have a responsibility to do some serious reflection on why they are including it and how they are choosing to portray it. There needs to be wisdom in how it’s handled basically, and the inclusion of it as little more than a source of shock value/edginess/darkness/whatever is not that.
Totally agree Rowan! It's not that it can't be included in stories, because as you said, it's an important and serious topic. But all too often it's treated as shock value or wish fulfillment. HOW it is portrayed matters.
@@ToriTalks2 thanks for the reply! I’m glad to see a booktuber bringing this up because I have had a lot of thoughts about it since getting into this genre and I don’t see many people talking about it (granted, I don’t watch that many booktubers so I may just be missing the discussion).
Agree! Bookborn has a really nice video talking about this topic " "It's historical": violence against women in fantasy", which I think adds a lot to this conversation
Hey that's my response on the Cosmere, thanks. Lol. While the cosmere isn't my favorite series, objectively speaking though, by the time he is done he will have written a series that includes 10 Stormlight, 13 Mistborn, at least 8 standalone, and at least 2 others planned trilogies plus who knows what else he'll randomly drop on us. I think that large of a resume with books that massively popular in the fantasy world, objectively speaking it'll be hard to say any simple Trilogy can compete in terms of objective greatness.
im a cosmere fan, but the thing is, what's popular now isn't necessarily what's gonna be considered great in the future. many classics weren't popular when they were released, so we don't know for sure if people in the future will still like the cosmere as much as people do these days.
My opinion on the subject has not much value but I read somewhere about authors who were hugely popular but no one remember today. Never read him but I always doubt the quality in such a prolific writer. Not like it is bad, but like, is he such a genius he can write a lot of great and long books? One time I saw a booktuber holding Ana Karenina and one of his, making that book, already big, seem small.
Here's an unpopular opinion for y'all: Rhythm of War is a very good book. I think it might be the best in the series. Edgedancer however can get yeeted into the sun. I'm glad I didn't interrupt my SA reading to read that novella.
My unpopular opinion goes with the dogearing discussion. I think books that have been read should look like they've been read and most of the time the wear and tear happens naturally. Dogearing is fine if you don't have a bookmark at hand, although I prefer grabbing a random piece of paper instead. If you're inclined to put markings in the margins, go ahead. I wouldn't break the spine intentionally but if it happens, it happens. It's a part of the copy's life and, personally, I like to see that. I buy most of my books second hand and, while it can be exhilirating in the moment to find something you want in a pristine condition, it's always more fun in the long run to find random notes or whatever the previous owner has left behind. Of course, if I borrow a book from a friend, I try to make sure I don't damage it.
No because most of the book released nowadays seems like they know what to write to get it to be instagram-popular, social-media popular like throw in some smut make it cutesy romance stuff, people will rush to buy them, regardless of how cliche it is. These kind of people are the ones who fail to appreciate good books/classics.
I think the group missed the nuance about the LOTR top ten list question. I agree with all of you that it may not work for everyone and in no way does any series have to be in one’s top 10. But the tone of the comment was that newer fantasy is better than older fantasy by definition. I hear that from a lot of people and it’s subjective and gate keeping from the younger reader community.
I definitely wouldn't say that new fantasy is "better" by definition than old fantasy. I think a good fantasy novel is a good fantasy novel, regardless of when it was written. :)
Can we stop talking about "representation" already? It's dull and tiresome. If someone writes good characters then it shouldn't matter if they are male or female or what ever. Representation is just another word that has been run into the dirt and I'm tired of hearing it.
The thing with classics is that opinions differ from generation to generation. I mean, our generation prefers watching the original Star Wars than 1930s Flash Gordon and younger kids prefer watching Avengers than Star Wars.
I remember as a teen reading someone saying they were the greatest thing, and I am not sure if it was what made me spite the notion. I kinda wanna never introduce them in my writings. I read dragon stories still tho.
Harry Potter is kinda undeniably one of the best fantasy series, like i ain’t saying you need to love it or anything and from what I’ve seen on this channel there more into epics so it makes sense in lines of there opinions and how they immediately disagreed on asoiaf being overrated, both of em I like, I feel like people just over hated on jk Rowling after her opinions were put into light which I honestly don’t get why people are mad about that, also lotr is in my top 10, but it’s completely opinion so whatever…. I feel like I’m on the spectrum when I keep going on to the point i don’t even know why I’m still typing, just stop typing, what is this, why am I up at 3:49am, I can’t stop, I was typing a story on docs and I can’t stop typing, why can’t I stop, help meee I need help, also anyone ever notice how we make fantasy a genre, despite it being essentially an amalgamation of other genres, but then it gets worse when you have things like dark fantasy or historical fantasy, so it’s just like what the hell does fantasy even mean at some point, and you can’t say it’s in another world and that’s the focus, but that’s an epic, and if you say mythical creatures, it can be placed in fiction…. Also I spent way too long reading shadow of the gods despite it being everything I love… maybe it’s the margins that get me… why am I still typing?… is this a rabbit hole? My left hand is literally falling asleep as we speak… hoping the video ends so I stop this torture…………..…………. ………….………….………….………….………….…………………………………………………………………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….………….…………………………………………………………………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….………….…………………………………………………………………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….………….ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 😕🙁☹️😣😖😫😩🥺😢😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😖😣☹️🙁😕😟😔😌😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🥲
Love lotr movies, saw them in my early teens, got into reading fantasy afterwards, and i hated reading the books, i liked the hobbuth though. Mught give it another shot down the line, way down the line lol
So many Gen X and Millennials were introduced to so much violence and sex that I can see how they would think classics are boring. They like flashing lights, tons of sex and gore in movies, mindless, vapid films.
Flashing lights don’t really matter We are talking about books and why classic books are boring in contrast to modern books. While there is some truth to it I don’t like classics mainly because they take too much describing things that I don’t care about. I tried reading Oscar Wilde but damn how long will he describe the stupid flowers and birds. I don’t need detailed description for my world to be alive quite the contrary if I’m honest. „Eery forest“ is enough for me to picture my vision of it. I don’t need „the forest was full of dark and long vines reaching from the barren thin branches“ for half a page to then move on to the animal noises that fill the forest.
I think it's partially outdated writing styles and partially subject matter. But it's tough for me to read "real" literature at all compared to something like fantasy. Even something like Dune, which I love, is a tough read though. Sometimes it does take a little more patience than people want to give these days.
@@foodsupply5071 LOL....yep, and attention span of the younger generations might have something to do with that. Now, after saying that, I also don't like things that go on forever describing things, but they have to be really, really long, like some of the books in Wheel of Time...the descriptions go on for pages sometimes, and as someone who has read lots and lots of the classics, I've never read any descriptions worse than that and that is not a classic! Now, if you want to read some really great classics, I suggest Dostoevvsky, Maugham, Steinbeck, Dumas, Bronte sisters, Dickens...good grief, there's too many to mention. But, I think you get the picture.
@@weregretohio7728 Sigh, I know...because of poor attentions spans now. I loved Dune, but you can look at the list I provided for someone else and give one or two a try. One writer who never gets mentioned any more and was one of my favorites as a young person was Robert Heinlein; you might want to give him a try.
Ad a Gen X, I have to disagree with you about the lack of exposure to the classics. I had to read Plato, Socrates, Homer, Ulysses, Shakespeare, Nabakov, Bronte, Dickenson, Hemingway, and so many more in high school alone. Looking at that list now I am laughing about how many are actually banned books too lol. Also, I went to high school with an Amy Thompson lol.
Re adaptation. Once I saw the gom jabar scene in Villneuve's Dune I was like.... he understands and turned it off. Not seen Dune 2. I have the book, don't care about any other medium. Dune the cornflake, don't care.
I don't think so. His prose is too simplistic, his characters feel forced, his dialogue is average, his humour is unnatural. They're good but the only thing carrying this series is the world building and magic system.
Some fun ideas on here. Unfortunately I agreed with you guys on everything, so can't leave a different opinion. It was nice to see my boy @spacedoutwizard get a feature!
It's next to me they are using John Gwynne as an example of PG-13 lol. I could barely handle the Malice series by the end. All the disemboweling dear Jesus. What does that say about me haha
Totally agree with Tori about sexual violence. I don’t need it in the genre. I see it as the author getting their sick fantasies out in print instead of reality. It makes me sick and keeps from reading many books. I was appalled reading Wizards first rule. Just gross.
Classics: I read Moby Dick this year and it was horrible. I was expecting so much more given people's love for it and its idea of Ahab used in movies like a couple of Star Trek films. Then I read Frankenstein which was magnificent. I recall Niko @nikosbookreviews saying, "Who writes like this?" So good.
There are many people who agree with your take on Moby Dick, I think many aren't warned the narrative gets lost in the weeds about Whaling detail, which could be really cool if you're interested and prepared for that. Still, some the same people read the abridged version and love it, because it sticks to an exciting tale - just shows what editing can accomplish, though people might easily decry that as "censoring" the "classics". I have not read it, but I think I'll try unabridged when I do, but I can switch over if it doesn't work. Love Frankenstein so much though. And the Jungle Book. And Peter Pan. Lord of the Flies. Tolkien. Prisoner of Zenda had fun moments, but I got board with the upright monarchists (Tolkien at least had more going on). I like Dickens novellas stories so far, but sometimes must _really_ push myself though loong descriptive sentences. So many more to try.
@@MagusMarquillin I sometimes forget what are considered classics. I liked Lord of the Flies also, and for some reason never think of LOTR as "classic", but loved it too. And the original Dracula. I have never tried anything by Dickens, or Grapes of Wrath, and such.
@Montie-Adkins Yep, the timeline keeps shifting, even into my lifetime! I have a feeling SF/F turns over classics faster then vanilla lit. Everyone has their own timeframe they think of, but maybe it's generally Victorian lit they find too meandering or dry. Love Dracula, forgot that one. Haven't read Grapes but of Mice and Men is heartbreaking and short. Love to Kill a Mockingbird too.
Clearly you have not read the Count of Monte Christo if you think that classics are boring…
Greatest book
That's a classic I'd really love to read!
@@ToriTalks2you'll love it!!!
Or Don Quixote or Moby Dick or Utopia or... 😜😘
I think I'll need to re read it in 5 ish years because I really struggled through it. I really enjoy some other classics, but I struggled with Montiel Christo, but I also don't enjoy revenge story's usually
I'm one of those who after a long break of many many years got back into reading via a classic. I read Wuthering Heights on a whim and was totally floored someone could write a novel like this more than 150 years ago. It was not what I expected at all but then again I didn't know what I did expect. Absolutely loved the book.
While wouldn't say that classics are boring, I do agree that you probably need a certain mindset to get into some of them. Patience is a virtue that is not amiss here as many classics take time for the story to unfold. If one can get into them though, there is lots to discover. One thing that's so fascinating and why they survived to this day is their relatability. It may have been written more than 100 years ago but many themes, problems these characters deal with or topics are just as relevant today as they were back then.
But then again, not every classic is for everyone and that is totally fine.
Following on the violence conversation. I think the way the violent/explicit scenes are treated by the author is really important. Following the torturer's example, to me The First Law by Joe Abercrombie (one of my favourite series of all time), even though it is explicit and the characters are despicable, it never felt that the book was praising this behaviour, and that's the line for me.
My top picks for adaptation would be; Sun Eater, Powder Mage, Gentlemen Bastards & First Law. Now im not saying these are the best or anything, but i think they could all be adapted very well for screen. Thanks for the discussion! Really fun to watch. (Oh and a mistborn video game!)
Thanks for having me on, Johan!!! This was super fun.
Thank you! I had so much fun!
Thank you so much for having me as a guest for this one! I had a fun time chatting with you and Tori about our hot or not-so-hot takes! 🔥😄
Solid start in the video. 😂😂
@@nazimelmardi I couldn't resist! 😂
I loved it! Thank you for joining and sharing your hot takes!
500 pages is too much. What I agree with tho is : Brando Sando could use a way stranger editor (or let the man/woman work) because for sure a cut of 20% would not harm his latest works but would force him write more careful. He might plan his books that’s true but not write them very carefully and check them. Someone did a check on Way of Kings and found a lot of typos that should not be in them. An editor should find them. Just an example.
As for Harry Potter I would say for Americans and UK readers it’s hard to see how much the impact was outside the English speaking community. Because I saw on tv that entire families waited in lines for the next books… here? We didn’t have that. It wasn’t a thing. Before the movies the Harry Potter phenomenon wasn’t really strong. Then for a while (movie duration) it was very popular for sure, but now it’s not really… the adult (Harry Potter adults if you will) are not so found for it like the Americans or British pairs. So we have to see that part as impact. So when it comes to what we should give for the kids? Percy Jackson or His Dark Materials or whatever? Give something fun. And every country has his own version not translated to English.
Classics are not dull or boring. Choose wisely. But also not every classic is an action or more like “impulse” heavy book just as we need today to be stimulated. Hence the take on Cosmere will be the greatest. No. But the classics need some knowledge on the era when the certain book was written. Put it to context. Different mindset to read it.
Hooray for more unpopular opinions! It would be boring if we all agreed all the time on every bookish topic. Wonderful to see Johanna and Tori for this episode!
The Dragonlance novels would make an amazing TV show. There is so much content to choose from, too.
Two amazing guests whom I enjoy tremendously! So happy to hear everyone’s take on LOTR. I don’t feel so alone. HP is everything to me, but can totally understand someone not loving it without all the nostalgia I have surrounding it. I really enjoyed the three-person format, it worked really well here.
Yep. I read the HOBBIT and that was enough 40 page descriptions of trees for me 😉 Harry Potter films are great 🙌🏻 it was not written for my generation 🤷♀️
The explicit language conversation was interesting since it seemed to ignore the fact that for secondary world fantasy, we're reading what would be an adaptation. So the characters in that world aren't saying curses as we know them, but in-world curse words that have been adapted so that we understand what they're saying. If that's the case, then why, or how, would that ruin the suspension of disbelief?
One of the things that irk me is when authors use modern day swear words in fantasy books. It's your own setting, go wild and be creative! Invent new explicit curse words and slang that fit the world.
@@Zivilin, but that's exactly my point. If secondary world fantasies are translated works, then the translator would do their best to find the closest comparable curse in whatever the work was translated into. For example, if you look at translations from English to other languages, the curses often change to something more recognizable in that other language/culture.
I already lost four books lending them, one was Les Miserables. And my lotr single volume came broken.
See, I just finished “The Old Man and the Sea” and absolutely loved it. Most of the negative reviews I’ve read complain about the “boring” or “dull” plot, but as someone who could care less about the plot if the characters are compelling I enjoyed it a lot. Classics, just like modern books, put different story elements in the spotlight (character, plot, setting, etc.) and they definitely depend on what you value as a reader. If you read “The Old Man and the Sea” for the plot you probably won’t enjoy it as much as someone who read it for the character of the old man.
I would not call Old Man and the Sea boring. I would say Old Man and the Sea has a terrible ending. TV Tropes calls this a Shaggy Dog Story. The whole point is to catch a big fish to survive.
@@samsampier7147i agree, not boring but the ending was too unsatisfactory. Either make it a fully dramatic ending or make it a happy one, which Hemingway didn't go for. 😢
@@samsampier7147 I can totally understand understand the disappointment with the ending, I too was disappointed. However I think the disappointment was intended and the loss of the fish may in some way represent the loss of the old man’s way of life being left behind as time went on. Was the ending satisfying? Certainly not. I don’t think that makes it bad. Not all stories have good or satisfying endings. At the end of the day I think the book was a “Journey before destination” kind of read and I get that’s not for everyone, but it worked for me.
Love this segment. Great idea! I still love Harry Potter and why I think it is amazing is that all these fantasy series we currently love will eventually be forgotten and Harry Potter will live on for generations. It'll be passed down for decades a la Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia.
Thank you! Yes, I agree!
My (maybe) unpopular opinion, Piranesi should be adapted as a live action instead of animation.
Or never adapted
I guess it's signed up for an animated film.
Because it's more mature?
@@Ash.s24 I've only just started it 🤓
@@xiiir838 yes, also, it’s imo easier to adapt in live action. I am afraid if they’ll be able to do the justice of the story and character in animation.
By this point The Cosmere is my favourite fantasy world followed by The First Law World and The Banished Land's Tales + Bloodsworn Saga ! :)
@Johanna - I had to read Hemingway in high school and found his novels unbelievably dull (If you thought Rhe Old Man and the Sea was dull, read For Whom the Bell Tolls) but his SHORT STORIES are fabulous. And Rebecca is fabulous. Jane Eyre is good too, but you either love her or want to slap her. Your comment about the classics not being for everyone is spot on. Many of them are very good but their style is significantly different than today's styles. If you are not a.strong reader, you will probably will hate them. However, if there is an audiobook (with a good reader), that may be an excellent alternative.
Thanks for recommending For Whom the Bell Tolls! I'm not the most well-read when it comes to classics, but aside from The Old Man and the Sea, I've loved every classic I've read so far!
I agree with how it is annoying how SA can be handled like Fantasy like how one of my favorite series, Berserk, does not do it particularly well. It is integral and important to the story but I’ve heard the depictions of people responding to it aren’t very good.
Lol... fun conversation, and many interesting questions/opinions out there! Think I was pretty much in line with most of your responses to them! It is refreshing to watch videos like this where we can disagree, but still point out why and be respectful of differing opinions. Wish more of the book community (and world) reacted like this! Thanks Johan, Tori, and Johanna!
I can't suspend my disbelief in a fantasy story unless it's completely written in a dead language. It's not any good unless I can't understand one word! That's real fantasy!
I finished reading Way of Kings recently and honestly it was too long. I kept reading about how great the ending was and I just came away feeling underwhelmed. There are lots of other books that are more respectful of the readers time with more compelling characters. I get why it has an audience, but I am not that audience
I started with fantasy and then migrated to the classics for a break. When I went back to fantasy 6 months later, I realised how badly written most of it is and have been reading the classics ever since
As someone who's trying to get into the classics, do you have any recommendations?
Great video. You three were so awesome and respectful to each other. I don't have a lot of friends who read, so this was very welcome.
My unpopular opinion is that Rhythm of War is my second favorite Stormlight Archive book.
Great video. 24:30 For Deadwood HBO series the use of explicit language was changed from the realistic period language to modern curse words. 1870's people used cusswords like nincompoop or tarnation. Test audiences thought the characters sounded like the cartoon character Yosemite Sam.
Call it translation convention. Like an in universe character translating all the fantasy languages and curse words into modern English.
I do like the fictional swearing in Battlestar Galatica like, "Frak!"
I'm team non-dog ear! That's book abuse! Johanna and I have the same Stormlight ranking, but I really hope that Wind and Truth changes the trend.
My books, when I could physically read, lived in my back pocket. The more abused, the better 🤪
Not only do I dog ear, I lay the book flat on the pages that I left off on. 😈
@@Farmynator yes!!
You're all monsters lol
@@RedFuryBooks 😈
HP is still one of the best fantasy series of all time. That much cultural impact alone puts it there.
Agree with Tori’s take on sexual violence in fantasy. Obviously she didn’t spell out the specifics but I do think it can so often be handled in a way that just isn’t appropriate given the seriousness of it. Obviously that isn’t to say that it can’t be used in stories at all, and it also isn’t to say that it should be tiptoed around (there is such a thing as being too sensitive!), but just that if an author is going to include it as an element in their story I think they have a responsibility to do some serious reflection on why they are including it and how they are choosing to portray it. There needs to be wisdom in how it’s handled basically, and the inclusion of it as little more than a source of shock value/edginess/darkness/whatever is not that.
Totally agree Rowan! It's not that it can't be included in stories, because as you said, it's an important and serious topic. But all too often it's treated as shock value or wish fulfillment. HOW it is portrayed matters.
@@ToriTalks2 thanks for the reply! I’m glad to see a booktuber bringing this up because I have had a lot of thoughts about it since getting into this genre and I don’t see many people talking about it (granted, I don’t watch that many booktubers so I may just be missing the discussion).
@@RowanAldridge I'm hoping to do a video on the subject at some point soon. I've been trying to put my thoughts in order.
@@ToriTalks2 looking forward to hearing your thoughts 🙂👍🏻
Agree! Bookborn has a really nice video talking about this topic " "It's historical": violence against women in fantasy", which I think adds a lot to this conversation
As for adaptation, if it sucks you can ignore it. So there’s really nothing to lose as a consumer. A bad adaptation doesn’t ruin the source material.
I think it’s fun to read series that are in progress because you grow with the characters
Agreed. Plus there are so many things in life that never find resolution, good practice 😉
Hey that's my response on the Cosmere, thanks. Lol. While the cosmere isn't my favorite series, objectively speaking though, by the time he is done he will have written a series that includes 10 Stormlight, 13 Mistborn, at least 8 standalone, and at least 2 others planned trilogies plus who knows what else he'll randomly drop on us. I think that large of a resume with books that massively popular in the fantasy world, objectively speaking it'll be hard to say any simple Trilogy can compete in terms of objective greatness.
im a cosmere fan, but the thing is, what's popular now isn't necessarily what's gonna be considered great in the future. many classics weren't popular when they were released, so we don't know for sure if people in the future will still like the cosmere as much as people do these days.
My opinion on the subject has not much value but I read somewhere about authors who were hugely popular but no one remember today. Never read him but I always doubt the quality in such a prolific writer. Not like it is bad, but like, is he such a genius he can write a lot of great and long books? One time I saw a booktuber holding Ana Karenina and one of his, making that book, already big, seem small.
Here's an unpopular opinion for y'all: Rhythm of War is a very good book. I think it might be the best in the series.
Edgedancer however can get yeeted into the sun. I'm glad I didn't interrupt my SA reading to read that novella.
Edgedancer is by far the worst fantasy book I've ever read, just unbelivably horrendous
I think as a youtuber/reviewer you should have read the big epic popular series as they are usually the series that impacted the whole genre forever.
I love Gardens of the Moon but I also love Elantris 😬😜
My unpopular opinion goes with the dogearing discussion. I think books that have been read should look like they've been read and most of the time the wear and tear happens naturally. Dogearing is fine if you don't have a bookmark at hand, although I prefer grabbing a random piece of paper instead. If you're inclined to put markings in the margins, go ahead. I wouldn't break the spine intentionally but if it happens, it happens. It's a part of the copy's life and, personally, I like to see that.
I buy most of my books second hand and, while it can be exhilirating in the moment to find something you want in a pristine condition, it's always more fun in the long run to find random notes or whatever the previous owner has left behind.
Of course, if I borrow a book from a friend, I try to make sure I don't damage it.
No because most of the book released nowadays seems like they know what to write to get it to be instagram-popular, social-media popular like throw in some smut make it cutesy romance stuff, people will rush to buy them, regardless of how cliche it is. These kind of people are the ones who fail to appreciate good books/classics.
I think the group missed the nuance about the LOTR top ten list question. I agree with all of you that it may not work for everyone and in no way does any series have to be in one’s top 10. But the tone of the comment was that newer fantasy is better than older fantasy by definition. I hear that from a lot of people and it’s subjective and gate keeping from the younger reader community.
I definitely wouldn't say that new fantasy is "better" by definition than old fantasy. I think a good fantasy novel is a good fantasy novel, regardless of when it was written. :)
I think you guys reached a pretty reasonable consensus on all of these😂
Can we stop talking about "representation" already? It's dull and tiresome. If someone writes good characters then it shouldn't matter if they are male or female or what ever. Representation is just another word that has been run into the dirt and I'm tired of hearing it.
Agreed
The thing with classics is that opinions differ from generation to generation. I mean, our generation prefers watching the original Star Wars than 1930s Flash Gordon and younger kids prefer watching Avengers than Star Wars.
Sorry, i try not to leave multipul comments but - read Dawnshard before Rythem of War! Its actually a decent novela (I hated Edgedancer)
I agree that the cosmere will not be the best, but inreally hope it will get better because i really like it
Idk how unpopular this opinion is, but I think Dragons are the most boring thing Fantasy has to offer.
I remember as a teen reading someone saying they were the greatest thing, and I am not sure if it was what made me spite the notion. I kinda wanna never introduce them in my writings. I read dragon stories still tho.
Reminds me of how I always described D&D as "best game ever, apart from the Dungeons and the Dragons" :D
Agreed!
As with most things i think it depends on how they are utilised in the story.
@@Eluarelon My favourite d&d monsters are beholders/illithids/aboleths/balhiir :D
Im starting Powder Mage later this month 🤓
Harry Potter genuinely is one of the greatest fantasy series of all time
Harry Potter is kinda undeniably one of the best fantasy series, like i ain’t saying you need to love it or anything and from what I’ve seen on this channel there more into epics so it makes sense in lines of there opinions and how they immediately disagreed on asoiaf being overrated, both of em I like, I feel like people just over hated on jk Rowling after her opinions were put into light which I honestly don’t get why people are mad about that, also lotr is in my top 10, but it’s completely opinion so whatever…. I feel like I’m on the spectrum when I keep going on to the point i don’t even know why I’m still typing, just stop typing, what is this, why am I up at 3:49am, I can’t stop, I was typing a story on docs and I can’t stop typing, why can’t I stop, help meee I need help, also anyone ever notice how we make fantasy a genre, despite it being essentially an amalgamation of other genres, but then it gets worse when you have things like dark fantasy or historical fantasy, so it’s just like what the hell does fantasy even mean at some point, and you can’t say it’s in another world and that’s the focus, but that’s an epic, and if you say mythical creatures, it can be placed in fiction…. Also I spent way too long reading shadow of the gods despite it being everything I love… maybe it’s the margins that get me… why am I still typing?… is this a rabbit hole? My left hand is literally falling asleep as we speak… hoping the video ends so I stop this torture…………..…………. ………….………….………….………….………….…………………………………………………………………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….………….…………………………………………………………………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….………….…………………………………………………………………….………….………….………….…………. ………….………….………….………….………….ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 😕🙁☹️😣😖😫😩🥺😢😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😖😣☹️🙁😕😟😔😌😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🥲
Love lotr movies, saw them in my early teens, got into reading fantasy afterwards, and i hated reading the books, i liked the hobbuth though. Mught give it another shot down the line, way down the line lol
So many Gen X and Millennials were introduced to so much violence and sex that I can see how they would think classics are boring. They like flashing lights, tons of sex and gore in movies, mindless, vapid films.
Flashing lights don’t really matter
We are talking about books and why classic books are boring in contrast to modern books.
While there is some truth to it I don’t like classics mainly because they take too much describing things that I don’t care about. I tried reading Oscar Wilde but damn how long will he describe the stupid flowers and birds.
I don’t need detailed description for my world to be alive quite the contrary if I’m honest. „Eery forest“ is enough for me to picture my vision of it. I don’t need „the forest was full of dark and long vines reaching from the barren thin branches“ for half a page to then move on to the animal noises that fill the forest.
I think it's partially outdated writing styles and partially subject matter.
But it's tough for me to read "real" literature at all compared to something like fantasy. Even something like Dune, which I love, is a tough read though. Sometimes it does take a little more patience than people want to give these days.
@@foodsupply5071 LOL....yep, and attention span of the younger generations might have something to do with that. Now, after saying that, I also don't like things that go on forever describing things, but they have to be really, really long, like some of the books in Wheel of Time...the descriptions go on for pages sometimes, and as someone who has read lots and lots of the classics, I've never read any descriptions worse than that and that is not a classic!
Now, if you want to read some really great classics, I suggest Dostoevvsky, Maugham, Steinbeck, Dumas, Bronte sisters, Dickens...good grief, there's too many to mention. But, I think you get the picture.
@@weregretohio7728 Sigh, I know...because of poor attentions spans now. I loved Dune, but you can look at the list I provided for someone else and give one or two a try.
One writer who never gets mentioned any more and was one of my favorites as a young person was Robert Heinlein; you might want to give him a try.
Ad a Gen X, I have to disagree with you about the lack of exposure to the classics. I had to read Plato, Socrates, Homer, Ulysses, Shakespeare, Nabakov, Bronte, Dickenson, Hemingway, and so many more in high school alone. Looking at that list now I am laughing about how many are actually banned books too lol. Also, I went to high school with an Amy Thompson lol.
Re adaptation. Once I saw the gom jabar scene in Villneuve's Dune I was like.... he understands and turned it off. Not seen Dune 2.
I have the book, don't care about any other medium. Dune the cornflake, don't care.
I don't think so. His prose is too simplistic, his characters feel forced, his dialogue is average, his humour is unnatural. They're good but the only thing carrying this series is the world building and magic system.
Some fun ideas on here. Unfortunately I agreed with you guys on everything, so can't leave a different opinion. It was nice to see my boy @spacedoutwizard get a feature!
How is John gwynne PG-13?
It's next to me they are using John Gwynne as an example of PG-13 lol. I could barely handle the Malice series by the end. All the disemboweling dear Jesus. What does that say about me haha
oh and I also think it should be normalized talking about visual novels like you do about "real" literature, because they are
Visual novels?
Wich ones?
I only know the xxx ones.
Same with interactive novels like Fallen Hero: Rebirth, Wayhaven Chronicles, Breach: The Archangel Job, A Study in Steampunk: Choice by Gaslight.
@@adamnesico Demonheart, Ebon Light, Red Embrace Hollywood, Andromeda Six, The House in Fata Morgana, The Expression Amrilato, Cinders.
Great video once again!
Unpopular opinion: mistborn era 1 book 2 was unnecessary. Could have completed the series in 1 long book or 2 books.
Totally agree!
Sanderson will never ever be more than a 7 out of 10 writer. He's fine but never great.
Closer to a 4 or 5 for me. Some of his books are a 6.
Capitalism regurgitates old things
I didn’t enjoy Mistborn….😐😐. I’m now nervous to continue on. I’ll be spending my time elsewhere.
No.
Cosmere is not even top 10😅😅😅
Totally agree with Tori about sexual violence. I don’t need it in the genre. I see it as the author getting their sick fantasies out in print instead of reality. It makes me sick and keeps from reading many books. I was appalled reading Wizards first rule. Just gross.
Sanderson is THE most overrated author since Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.
Like the video 🎥
My unpopular opinion. Lords of the rings is overrated.
Harry Potter is better then lord of the rings.
Classics: I read Moby Dick this year and it was horrible. I was expecting so much more given people's love for it and its idea of Ahab used in movies like a couple of Star Trek films. Then I read Frankenstein which was magnificent. I recall Niko @nikosbookreviews saying, "Who writes like this?" So good.
There are many people who agree with your take on Moby Dick, I think many aren't warned the narrative gets lost in the weeds about Whaling detail, which could be really cool if you're interested and prepared for that. Still, some the same people read the abridged version and love it, because it sticks to an exciting tale - just shows what editing can accomplish, though people might easily decry that as "censoring" the "classics".
I have not read it, but I think I'll try unabridged when I do, but I can switch over if it doesn't work. Love Frankenstein so much though. And the Jungle Book. And Peter Pan. Lord of the Flies. Tolkien. Prisoner of Zenda had fun moments, but I got board with the upright monarchists (Tolkien at least had more going on). I like Dickens novellas stories so far, but sometimes must _really_ push myself though loong descriptive sentences. So many more to try.
@@MagusMarquillin I sometimes forget what are considered classics. I liked Lord of the Flies also, and for some reason never think of LOTR as "classic", but loved it too. And the original Dracula. I have never tried anything by Dickens, or Grapes of Wrath, and such.
@Montie-Adkins Yep, the timeline keeps shifting, even into my lifetime! I have a feeling SF/F turns over classics faster then vanilla lit. Everyone has their own timeframe they think of, but maybe it's generally Victorian lit they find too meandering or dry.
Love Dracula, forgot that one. Haven't read Grapes but of Mice and Men is heartbreaking and short. Love to Kill a Mockingbird too.
Huh? At least it will be completed. I would rather support a writer who cares about his fandom than support arrogant idiots like George R.R martin