BIKE CARB (itbs) conversion FUEL supply - how to
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2018
- When converting from fuel injection to bike carbs you are basically making big changes to two things. Once is the size and shape of your intake and the other is the way you deliver fuel to your engine.
You have to make changes to the fuel system because unlike fuel injection, carburetors require a much lower fuel pressure to run properly. EFI fuel pressure is around 70-80 psi at the pump and 35-40 psi at the fuel rail, while carburetors just need 3-5 psi to run properly.
To get that kind of fuel pressure you have two options. Make your stock efi fuel pump do its job and pump fuel and then reduce the pressure somewhere down the line by using a fuel pressure regulators. To do this properly you also need a fuel pressure gauge and a return line to the tank. This ends up being kinda complicated and makes the engine bay kinda messy. Also, good fuel pressure regulators, like those made by malpassi, are relatively expensive and cost anywhere from 80 to 100 USD. The good thing about this setup is that you retain your stock fuel pump and can easily switch back to EFI.
Now option number two, which is what I did, will also enable you to keep your stock efi fuel pump and costs a lot less. Option number 2 is to use an actual fuel pump from a motorcycle. These are cheap, readily available, super easy to install and don't need a fuel pressure regulator or a fuel pressure gauge or a return line to the tank. There is a bit of a catch tho, and that's that you have to somehow give them access to the fuel in your fuel thank without using the fuel lines used by your efi fuel pump.
There is a way to do this without removing the tank, and that's by using the fuel drain plug at the bottom of the fuel tank of the mr2 mk1. Once removed simply modify the fuel drain plug by drilling and welding in an outlet.
The install of the pump is inline, all you need is a hose going from the tank to the pump and from the pump to the carbs. I added a fuel filter between the tank and pump for good measure. These motorcycle fuel pumps need to be installed horizontally and as low in the car as possible. When it comes to the electrical connection the fuel pump just needs two wires. One is switched 12v power and the other is ground.
D4A shop: www.driving4answers.com/shop/
Intro music: Kiss by Escape
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Another excellent tutorial. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks so much for the shout out! Wish I had better footage for you to use, but still missing the old data. Hopefully soon.
Your plan sounds good, and at least your tank has a drain plug! My early one didn't Had to remove the tank 1/4 full.
So glad you don't have to remove the tank! As you saw, it's a massive pain. You could definitely handle it, but unless you suspect it is rusting through, probably not worth it. Yours has run recently enough to for the inside to probably be alright, and the fuel coming out did look good. Hopefully you can see how my tank was inside soon. It's shocking!
P.S. Your garage ain't even that bad! You've seen mine I'm sure. I am about 10% away from having one whole half free to work in though. MR2 SR20 engine swap incoming after that! Then I can have a messy garage that looks just like yours. ;)
802 Garage Going to your channel sub.
Thanks a lot! Every one counts. :)
thank god u made this am puting bike carbs on a mk2 vw golf and u gave me a lot of info
It'll be worth it 😉 my itbs (even though a diffrent build) are also taking their time.
thanks for your help! really good info
Hey man, great video as always! I really want to do this conversion to my phase 1 Peugeot 306 1.6 8V (street daily). Do you recommend using the same bike carbs you used in your build? If so I'll try to get my hands on them asap. Thanks!
edelbrock sells inline fuel pumps that are about 35 to 40 dollars. id venture to say it may have a bit more flow.
I’m going for it thank u
Good job👏
I replaced the stock fuel pump in my MR2 several times. A royal pain in the fkn ass for sure... I ended up adding a supplemental inline pump, to reduce workload on the in tank pump and this solved my issues...while also providing greater fuel supply to feed the engine I had worked over. Cams, port/polish heads, adjustable camshaft gears, full exhaust, CAI + I modded the MAF. That little beast was running with Mustang 5.0s in the short game and would crush almost anything going in circuit tracks. I miss it terribly :(
That sounds like one helluva build. Got any photos or videos of it somewhere, would love to see it.
No. That was nearly 20 years ago...and a couple life upheavals where I lost everything. Before CZcams existed.
Crazy 8s Drums Oh, ok. Well.. You'll never lose the memories. Or maybe you can build one again :)
I did tons of cool stuff to it. My speedometer died so I just fabbed a carbon fiber panel and put a bunch of AutoMeter gauges in the dash to replace it, with a tachometer on the A-pillar. Springs/struts, polyurethane suspension bushings and a beefier sway bar. A little brake work. There was no need to go crazy with the suspension because it was really great to begin with. In the twisties, it would beat or keep up with anything, lambo, porsche, ferrari, NSX etc...though gearing prevented high top speed.
The short ratio gear set was both a blessing and a curse. I would have liked a bit more spread and maybe an extra 'overdrive' gear.
I have a 7 rib big port do I need a spacer to my bike carb set up?
I still can't get over a last week video :P
fila1445 You want more sexy dancing and less bike carb nonsense? Me too!
i have an 8p audi a3, can i convert that to run on bike carbs
i ask since i know it has two forms of injection
how has this system held up? I'm debating using a fuel pressure regulator on my bmw im converting to carbs
Awesome...
That's all I have to say!
Just a quick question why did you not just install a feul regulator in the engine bay to bring the pressure down from 10psi to 4 psi?
Stock efi pressure is around 37 psi. Yes you do have regulators for that but they're usually very expensive and don't last very long
For my AE85/6 I've found cheapo rear disks which appeared quite unexpectedly, and as I was not sure if they fit, ordered them just to check but they fit, there was Polish made disks made by Kager and cost something around $20 set
are the 4x114.3 bolt pattern used in euro AW11?
Mine are allegedly coming somewhere from Italy. But theyre cheap too, around 35$ per disc. Only ones I could find. My AW11 is 4x100.
Checked against toyodiy.com - www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_E_1987_TOYOTA_MR2_AW11L-WCMQFW_4102.html
and the 42431-17020 part number, on another page there were few cross reffs for this PN like:
Blue Print ADT34351
Optimal BS9042
Brembo 08A14010
but not really sure that they are fit...
I am in the process of converting my soles carb to keihin 41 carbs on my BMW 2002. I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction for how to get the correct jetting.
It's really not as simple as that. That's like sayin "I'm remodeling my home, can you point me in the right direction of what to do" :) Are the carbs CV carbs? What are the jets in them now? Any mods on your engine? There's a lot of questions and there is no general rule. But here's what I can tell you. Get a wideband gauge, that will take all the guesswork out of the tuning and make it a lot faster and more accurate. Reading spark plugs and tuning with your butt and ears can only be done by uber experienced veterans that have tuned hundreds of carbs. Young folk like us needs the aid of modern technology :) Start with whatever is in the carbs right now, then watch the afrs on the gauge. If lean at idle go one size larger pilot jets, if lean at mid throttle add 1 shim to jet needle (assuming it's a cv carb) , if lean at wot go one size bigger main jet. That's my basic logic at this point, but I might also end up needing to mess with emulsion tubes and or air jets. It's a dark complex art but once you master it and have your engine dialed in you will be able to enjoy the feeling of having done something differently and having a sexy old-school skill that is becoming increasingly rare :)
Need some advice
Great video by the way ,just wanted to know
I have a 1.6 golf running with Yamaha R1 carbs
Am I able to run unichip management with this setup
Reason I'm confused is because the carbs got a TPS but no fuel injectors???
The TPS is probably to adjust the ignition timing i think
Awsome ideas D4A :) Btw whats your intro song? Wish u all the best in this project :)
Song is Kiss by Escape. Also in video description :)
driving 4 answers Gotta buy new glasses my friend;) Thanks alot and stay awsome ;)
Love all your videos!!! I started my bike carbs conversion at the same time as you. Please make video about tuning the carbs, I would love to see how are you doing the tuning. And please write what jets and adjustments are you using. i had problem with owerflowing the carbs, I needed some time to solve it out. I am converting 1.1 engine, belive it or not. :D All the best from Serbia, I will keep watching and sharing!!!
Brate, odakle si? :D
I am in the process of tuning my carbs right now. There will be a really in-depth detailed video of the tuning really soon. But here's a really quick run-down of what I have gone through so far.
Stock is 40 pilot, 145 main jets, 1 shim on needle. I started with 45 pilot, 160 mains, and three shims on needle. This ended up being very rich at idle and lean at higher throttle. So I went back to 40 pilot and 2 shims. This turned out to be lean. So now I will try 42 pilot and 170 main jets to see what happens. I have also given the carbs a super detailed cleaning and taken them apart completely. A video on the cleaning will be published tomorrow around 6:00 pm our time. I am in BiH, very close to you :) What engine and car are you converting? Got fb or instagram or something so I can see some pictures? I love bike carb conversion projects :)
Thanks for the quick answer. I will send you some photos via google. I haven't posted photos yet, until I succeed. When I finish, I am planing to write detailed text. I am converting 1.1 Zastava three door (Mediteran). :D My carbs are Honda CBR F1 32 diffuser, I started with standard jets, 35 pilot, 110 mains and no shims on the needle. By using dcoe/dhla calculator, for 32 diffuser, 110 should be ok. But I was running bit lean. I still need some testing, but time is a bit problem right now. On Idle it is ok, but lean is on higher rpm, and idle rpms are bit high. Have you heard, you can use smaller main jets by pluging main air correctors. Try it with 145 mains and pluged main air correctors. Or 45, 160 and less shims. I am having problems to finding pilot jets to buy. I found mains, but only smallers ones, so I need to drill them out, which I don't like.
My fb page is "Serbian Car Fans", I will post my work there when I finish and facebook.com/groups/zastava101klub/
At the time, Serbian Car Fans is on pause, because of my lack of free time. I will send you my private fb profile too.
You can also find me on facebook, feel free to get in touch on my fb page. Where can I find that jet calculator?
I will send it to you. ;)
King filter + facel cube pump + mechanical fuel pump ?
Is it possible to decrease the voltage of the efi pump in order to lower the pressure?
I like the way you think, but it probably wouldn't work. The pump needs 12v to run. You could somehow lower the voltage I guess to make the pump run slower...maybe. But it just isn't designed to work that way and I don't think it would last long, and the pressure would still vary to much and probably be too high. The pressure is 75psi at the pump, and the carbs need 4 psi at most, which means you would need to lower the pressure 16-17 times. Now this would take A LOT of experimenting with the voltage and a fuel pressure gauge to check which lowered voltage provides the right pressure. And I think the minimum voltage at which the pump would ever run would still produce too much fuel pressure. And you would need to buy a fuel pressure gauge, which is already almost half of the cost of the setup that uses an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. You would probably end up spending more on electrical supplies to lower the voltage than the motorcycle fuel pump costs :)
I'm planning to do this on my car with car carbs. Would it still work if I didn't use bike carbs with the superbike fuel pumps?
The carb on my 4G15 is an Aisan dual barrel carb if that helps. And do you need to connect the return line back to the fuel tank?
Can we use the mechanical fuel pump with the bike carburettor.?
You can use anything as long aa it delivers the correct pressure
I have a 200cc single cylinder engine, aand I want to install a fuel pump, since I want to mount my tank lower than my carbureator. Do you think I can get away with a 4-5 psi fuel pump or will that be too much? Btw Ive been watching your channel for some time. love to see it grow so fast. Congrats for nearly 70k!
Hey there, the 4-5psi will likely be too much. I don't know what kind of carb the engine is running but I would use a pump from a motorcycle, any carbed bike pump will be ok. After this vid I had the opportunity to test a bunch of these pumps and they're more than capable of pumping fuel up almost any height. It might shorten their lifespan if you make them pump really high up, but likely not significantly. My pump is mounted almost at the bottom of my chassis and the carbs are just under thr engine lid, zero problems ever, and it's a 2psi pump, I measured the pressure with a t-piece. It takes very little to blow fuel past the float valves, so lower pressure is always better. Almost any carb engine can pretty much run with gravity fed fuel, like you will find on many older bikes. Thanks for watching :)
You may run into issues with that plug in a few years. They allow water in and rust.
You need to run a Deutsche plug if it's in the weather. They are expensive and need a special tool but.
I will wrap it, I left it open like this just to show how it looks.
do you still use this second hand fuel pump? found any problems? or is it just fine and works perfect?
i also have a bike swap conversion(keihin cv carbs from an cbr900rr). Accidentally bought a fuel pump meant for webers(0,38bar) but cant seem to get it just right.
Still using this pump. Zero issues so far :)
@@d4a thnx for the response. Getting myself one of those then :)
Was it harder to get some blacktop efi individual throttle bodies?
Not really. I wanted something different. 20v itbs on a 16v 4age have been done to death. Plus it all ends up costing more than it should.
Will this also be a solution for a carb conversion with Weber IDF or DCOE carbs??
Do you know the exact fuel pressure requirements for the Webers or DCOE? If they need 3-4 psi I don't see why this wouldn't work, although I'm no expert for those carbs :)
we use like 5 or 6 psi in drag racing with those carbs in 1.6 engines here in argentina
Hello, just came across your channel. I too have an 87, mine has a 20v blacktop in it. It has a cheaper cold air intake right now. How easy is it to install "trumpets" instead of that? Just bolt them on? Do I need to worry about any sort of sensors? Thanks for your help!
You have the stock plenum on? Trumpets are easy to install as far as I know. Techno toy tuning makes really nice trumpets a.k.a. velocity stacks for the 20v.
driving 4 answers Yes stock airbox (I'm new at this type of stuff had to look that up)
No worries. Check out techno toy tuning's website and all will be clear soon :) You can shoot them an email too with any questions you may have.
So I have a base model corolla fx with a carbureted 4ALC, and I do plan to swap a 89 MR two 4AGE into it. I have Yamaha R1 carbs for my 4age, would this cut out a lot of work that you have done because you went directly from EFI and rebuild everything for carburetors outside of that could I use the stock EC you temporarily
The only thing you can probably use is the stock fuel pump, if it provides the right flow and fuel pressure for the R1 carbs. You didn't finish your comment, but I assume you wanted to ask about stock ECU. The stock 4age ECU might work if its MAP based and you have a suitable MAP sensor and harness. You might also do sone research to see if it's possible to use the 4ALC distributor since I believe it has vacuum advance.
driving 4 answers ah I see I think the 89's are MAF and not map so I might have to tweak the harness.
But I can get a map sensor from an 89 mr2 without a problem, and I meant if I could use the stock singlecam ecu and harness seeing as it is built for a carb or will the duel cam cause interference with the single cam ecu. Or is it better to get a nodiz like you did. My stock carburetor in my stock motor is a two barrel and bike carbs are carbs are technically so I don't think that should be much of an issue in terms of a fuel pressure management. I did manage to buy a Yamaha fuel pump from an R1
did you make the carb intake by yourself or was the carb amd intake came in a kit? im running a stock carb on my nissan sentra and i wanna do a 4 individual motor carb conversion on it. i just dont know where to start
I wish I could weld like that. It's all part of a kit made by DanStengineering. Check out my bike carb parts unboxing video. All the info is there.
+driving 4 answers (mr2 mk1 hero) i just watched that video just now. I can have someone fabricate the intake manifold for me but the quad motorcycle carbs i mostly see are hella expensive. Do you know any brand or model of cheap quad carbs? i really appreciate you taking time to reply to my comment. thank you very much
+driving 4 answers (mr2 mk1 hero) i just watched that video just now. I can have someone fabricate the intake manifold for me but the quad motorcycle carbs i mostly see are hella expensive. Do you know any brand or model of cheap quad carbs? i really appreciate you taking time to reply to my comment. thank you very much
Mine are CBR600 F4 Keihin carbs, they are around 150-200$.
Dang, I did zzr1000 carbs and I used bike fuel pump. Just as yours, the cheap ebay pump failed after few hours of use. I bought new one but that seems to overfill my carbs. Those are 100% clean I checked. You think I still need a fuel pressure regulator?
To push past the float valve seals the pump would need something like 8 psi, and carb fuel pumps almost never do that. Are you 100% sure your float seals are good?
@@d4a the float needle seals look brand new and if I put the carbs upside-down and blow down the fuel hose it seals very well. I'm quite baffled tbh.
Thanks for quick response, I didnt expect that!
@@d4a I did a leakage test with water without changing anything and now they hold up to 1 bar. which is weird but imma put them back on the car
Your fuel filter at the pump is mounted backward tho
never clicked sooo fast.
So what kind of advantage do you have with bike carbs?
Better sound, more responsiveness, a tiny bit more power if tuned right. Generally a more fun engine to drive. Mpg suffers on the other hand.
is there no need for fuel return lines for a carb conversion?
There is a need for fuel return lines yes
what about the fuel flow? 1.6L engine should need more fuel than 0.6L engine
Bigger jets/nozzles on the bikecarbs take care of more fuel in the cylinder. Fuel pressure is not an issue, all old cars with carbs ran with low fuel pressure no matter the engine size
I was kind of curious about that too though. If at full throttle the 600cc engine may require say 5 LPH of flow, what if the 1600cc engine requires 15 LPH of flow? Yes, it only needs very low pressure, but if it can't maintain the 3 PSI required, there may be problems. I'm sure he probably considered this and the pump can handle it, but I was also wondering.
I made a 16min video and forgot this. Here's how it works. The vacuum generated by a piston going down in the cylinder is what pulls fuel from the carbs. The sport bikes that use these pumps all rev well above 10.000 rpm, and the pump has no problem keeping up. The 4age doesn't rev beyond 7600 rpm. Now imagine how many times more is fuel drawn out of the carbs in case of the sport bike. Now a 1600 engine may have bigger cylinders and pistons, but it doesn't really need more fuel than the bike engine does. I tested the fuel pump and it fills a 1 liter bottle in less than 30 seconds. Since there is no pressure in the hose when it's filling an empty bottle it works at full speed and it clicks really fast. When it's pumping fuel for the carbs it generates the pressure required within seconds and starts clicking really slowly, like once every second. I also tried keeping the engine at high revs (4k to 5k) and it does click faster, but still nowhere near as fast as when it's at its max speed. So, to sum up this stupidly long response, a 1600cc car engine on bike carbs cannot exceed the capacity of this and similar pumps. :)
Sounds like it should work to me!
Ako bude problema sa diskovima javi mi se na fejs ili mail, imam ti ja rijesenje, kroz mjesec dana ih mozes imat jer ih trebam direkt iz tvornice narucit, ali imam mogucnost nabavit i prednje i zadnje, naravno ako ti ta opcija odgovara, nadam se da ces ih dobit cim prije da konacno sklopis taj ovjes :)
Samo jako dalje!
Hvala care. Ako ovi zakazu zovem te. Koji brend mozes zbaviti?
Brembo, textar, delphi i ima ate, ali nazalost samo za naprijed
Ti zadnji diskovi od ovog auta su jebena nocna mora :)
Ma nene, krivo sam se izrazoo, ima prednje i zadnje od svega navedenog, ali ate ima samo prednje
Why cant the cars fuel pump be used? Surely a 1.6 requires the fuel pressure and fuel delivery a 1.6 needs? Why would a fuel pump for a 600cc engine be needed?
Because these are motorcycle carburetors and like any carburetors they need very low fuel pressure, 3-4 psi or so. Fuel injection requires 10 times that. The stock high pressure fuel injection pump can not work with carburetors for that reason. It's not about engine displacement, it's about the type of fuel delivery.
driving 4 answers I see. Thanks for the reply. Im thinking of converting a Micra to an ITB set up.
yeah the tank is a pain in the ass to remove i needed over 4 houers to remove it
Same here! Overall with filming it was at least 6 hours to get it out in my driveway. Always just a few things that make it so difficult.
the hose for the fuel thatr get in ,myyyyyyyyy god that thing is so anoying
The big bendy fuel filler neck hose? My god it was a pain. All the small hoses at the back. XD
but that moment when the engine runs and nothing is leacking is such a satisfaction
No need of a fuel return supply?
Nope
Lol I thought you had an AE86
Your pump is sitting extremely too far away from your tank the pump is made to push the fuel not pull it