Mail Coifs - not as simple as they seem
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- čas přidán 16. 03. 2016
- Mail coifs are something of a mystery. What shape were they? How were they worn? How should I make one?
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Here I ramble about the business of making a coif. My original idea was to make one as people normally do, and then have something to talk about, but once I was stuck into the task, I saw that things were not as simple as previously thought. Were coifs worn over padding? If so, how thick should it be? Did they cover the chin? If so, how did the cope with the under-hang of the jaw? I look at period art, and wonder how useful it is. I look at the little evidence there is from an actual surviving example.
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After putting on that padding, I didn't know if you were preparing to put on a coif, or bring Parliament to order.
I always thought Parliament was brought to ordure, my bad.
My thought was "So that's where judges' wigs came from."
or drive a WW2 era soviet tank for that matter
Lmao I knew what you meant when he stuck that on
Still waiting for a follow up on this coif conundrum, 3 years later.
oh darn, just saw this video for the first time and was gonna go look up the follow up video to this.
Same. I wonder if he made the cupped chin part and if it was illuminating.
Seems helmets are the better way to go. Very confusing stuff.
Check out Knyght Errant's video:
m.czcams.com/video/YJivNyTZv0Y/video.html
The coif clearly needs to have been at least thinly padded underneath, but I think that in order to cover the chin, it probably also needs to have opened at the front or the back and tied shut somewhere, either behind the neck or to the side of the head or face. Also, since coifs were clearly worn underneath nasal helms, and enclosed helms and great helms seem to have developed from the nasal helm, I think coifs were probably worn under those subsequent types of helms too.
As for why people apparently just went with the coif sometimes, I think it's because if you are wearing a great helm and you want to see better for some reason, you have no choice -- since great helms have no visors -- but to take off the great helm completely; I don't think men-at-arms actually *stopped* wearing helmets for a generation or two. Rather, I think it was just a matter of adjusting one's protective posture depending on the specific situation, since the need to see well and/or to communicate may have occasionally outweighed the need for maximum protection (as the same happens to be true in modern warfare).
Later on, people of course wore bascinets with aventails and either klappvisors or pigface visors, and those would have been a step forward from a great helm with a coif underneath it, since your head would have still been pretty well protected if you removed your visor in order to see better.
But before that, of course, many men-at-arms had worn a cervelliere, or later, a bascinet (which seems to have developed from the cervelliere) under a great helm, which would have also left your head pretty well protected if you took off the great helm, but clearly would have added up in terms of weight (coif + cervelliere/bascinet + great helm).
Thus, the bascinet with visor and aventail worn by later generations of men-at-arms would have been a step forward for this reason as well (i.e. less weight and a better ability to adjust one's own protective posture depending on the circumstances).
naggot, they wore the cervelliere under the coif, that is why it appeared that they were only wearing the coif. lindy is just ignorantly running his mouth like usual.
I cant stop laughing imagining lindybeige being the target of merciless bullying looking like that hundreds of years ago.
lol remove the hundreds of years ago and it’s funnier
what is 14th century bullying
pretty sure that didn't exist back then
He wouldn't get bullied cuz everyone who would try to bully him would get a sharpened steel pipe in there gut.
@@jinglebells3323 Uh. No, it existed.
@@jinglebells3323 It would be eerily similar to today. Walking into the chapel getting snide comments like ‘ed like a f*cking orange’ et cetera.
A Sword is essentially a big iron bar.
I can already hear the swords enthusiast screaming in agony.
It is technically correct though so...
Rallis technically no. Swords are steel. Which is an alloy with Iron as a main component. But it would be incorrect to call them iron.
@@lukericker8325 steel is just iron with carbon
Rallis I did say that. It is made of steel. Not “technically correct” to say its just an iron bar.
@@lukericker8325 well ok maybe not «technically» correct, but definetily essentialy correct. Iron and steel as almost the same thing, only steel is slightly better at being iron.
That padding looks like a Russian tanker's helmet.
+spigotsandcogs - same logic - it protects from blows
I heard that German tankers wore black berets that acted like a crash helmet.
Yeah but it wasn´t issued to the troops after the Polish campaign.
spigotsandcogs :
Also used by the Warsaw Pact after the war
German tankers did actually have a proper crash helmet, but it was an ugly, hot, and thoroughly uncomfortable leather affair that was quickly dropped in favor of berets and, eventually, side caps.
Your first piece of padding looks more like a soviet tank headwear
but soviets still used medieval technology in ww2. vatniks/fufaihas, i dont know how they call them are basicaly gambesons. tankist caps are arming caps.
it looks like one of those old fashioned powdered wigs they used to wear
Fabric still behaves like fabric and human heads haven't distorted over time.
Well, vatniks were warm AND offered some protection in melee, while staying relatively light, compared to what germans wore during russian winters. Although, it wasn't a uniform - militia/guerrillas wore it. Some people still wear them, actually.
BlackMasterRoshi
Oh dear lord, when you put that on at the start I nearly dies laughing.
Took me 3 minutes to recover, got into another round of laughter when he puts on the half finished mail XD
12:23 erm... I think I may have solved the mystery of that "tuck" shown in the Morgan Bible. This may be completely daft, but that arrangement looks exactly like the method for turning a tube of fabric into a balaclava. (The company Buff Headwear has a tutorial video on how to do this, mind you, it's not very intuitive.) Conceivably a tube of maille would be easier to manufacture and more resistant to degradation than a cap with the face cut out. And, the "lace" you pointed out would solve a crucial flaw that I've encountered with the arrangement, where the fabric on either side of the face loosens and bunches up in one's peripheral vision. I know it's been a while since you made this video, but I believe it bears some further investigation.
There must be some trickery here. The guys, who couldn't make pants wont make an intricate pattern for this stuf either.
Only thing is that mail wasn't manufactured, it was hammered by hand
@@furqueue9590 "manufactured" is not the same as "handmade" (by a professional)?
Did I miss something?
@@geoschorsch1875 Pieces of mail were hand-put together towards the exact fit of a person.
What are you finding hard - or are you just trying to be a smartass?
r3216100 I wonder if there wasn’t a degree of wrapping like a metal head scarf that may have been a stylish flourish picked up during the crusades as esprit de corps among crusaders
well the people found wearing coifs were dead...
Rachel Evans what about the knight in the last crusade?
Es dead now, isn't he? And was wearing one at the time - must've been rubbish.
then again, if they were saved by a coif they likely wouldn't be found dead wearing one.
Then they weren't much good for giving the owner eternal life then it seems...
Yes since they wouldn’t live for thousands of years
I have a couple of ideas on this topic. For one the main reason why mail coifs were big in the crusades is because even back then the middle east was hot, far hotter than what most europeens were used to. And in that wheather you don't want have to wear a metal bucket on year head which pretty much boils your brain. On the other hand does a coif have enough protection against attacks, especially when combined with a tightly bound turban, which would be my idea on what kind of padding they used. A turban can be very resistant while not being to big. also it is not as brainmelting hot as a padding cap. this also could explain the differently made coifs. maybe instead of an expensive preshaped coif they used scarf like pieces of chainmail to wrap around their heads, fixing everything with a bandana or circlet.
Also on the topic on why it was so popular during the crusades, besides the heat. Their enemys had very weak bows, different from an english longbow, they could barely penetrate any armor. and wouldn't penetrate a well made chainmail. their swords alike, they often had sabres, curved backwards. their primary focus is cutting not hacking, nor thrusting they too had problems penetrating chainmail.
And from what I know their primary focus in battle was to cut open wounds in the stomach or throat to kill their enemys. With a coif that is covering not only your head but also your whole neck and throat combined with a standart chainmail they couldn't attack the throat or the stomach rendering the sabres almost completely useless. The rest is fashion.
bump
Then comes the question, if they were avoiding wearing big warm metal buckets on their head, what stops chainmail from getting as warm? I mean, far as we know, the crusaders didn't wear tabards only because it looked good, but rather the reason that metal of any kind gets really hot when you're standing out in the glazing sun all day, and then feel like putting your hand down on your body. Not a very smart move.
Well, yes, perhaps it is as you said, and for all we know we both could be terribly wrong.
+Einherjar Skadisson
Well a helmet blocks air circulation much more than a coif would. A helmet probably would have become like a sauna, since it traps heat and sweat inside with very few openings that allow for fresh air to come in. A coif would allow the air to flow much more freely around your head.
That may be part of it, but crusaders also often wore helmets over padding and a coif.
I was thinking the same thing. No way would a small or weak arrow penetrate a coif. And wearing a buckets on their head in hot climate would cook their brains. Thus, coifs!
"How is a coif better than a helmet"
First thing that comes to mind if I am Crusading down in the desert of the Middle East a coif can breathe better since it's not a single piece of metal but several links and can allow air flow. It also can connect to the rest of the mail armor worn making it harder to knock off. Also whatever padding you wear under it would likely absorb moisture and sweat meaning you won't have it dripping down in your eyes like it might do with a helmet. It would also be easier to pack imo since a coif can collapse in shape where as a helmet is set in it's shape. Just a few things I would consider.
As far as the padding, you could probably wear that with a helmet as well, so whatever advantage it gives by itself isn't exclusive to a coif.
lindybeige is the only CZcamsr I can and do binge re-watch pretty much indefinitely ive probably watched this video at least 3 times
There are two basic things that we often forget about when talking about medieval armor.
The first is the fact that few people could purchase a full set of armor from the beginning. Because of this they would first purchase their padded armor and use it for basic protection, afterwards they would add on the chain maille layers over top which would serve to add more protection than just the padded components. Finally they would add on any plates or helmet that would be purchased at the end and likely be the most expensive part. This meant that each individual part had to be able to fit with everything else since you wouldn't want to purchase the same thing over and over again.
The second, is practicality. Many times throughout history people are willing to sacrifice Perfect protection in exchange for more Comfort, or the ability to go on the March for an extended period of time without being essentially killed by your own armor. As such people had to make compromises in terms of what provides the best protection, and what is light enough or easy enough to use to not hinder you getting to the battle. This is why Norman style nasal caps are incredibly common throughout all the ages, even when superior helmets are available. they do not provide great all-round protection, and in many ways are just a simple bowl over your head, but they're light and fairly comfortable without hindering your senses.
Solid point on mobility over protection. In Iraq in close in cities, we would wear all four ballistic plates. Afghanistan on the other hand is a lot of up and down, running and gunning, so we take the side plates out and trim the fat of the gear we carry.
I feel like mobility might also be more important in melee combat because you need swiftness and manoeuvrable gear to get powerful, effective strikes in
nikolai, they didn't have plate armor at this time yet. that is not how it worked.
They would most likely buy a helmet first, seeing as one downward strike, or a lucky thrust would kill you.
There's a gravure in video which shows some plate protection. Full plate armor was invented and popularised much later, yeah, but people added some plates on their mail in 1300's.
Your coif is so well made, it can be enchanted with magic now.
xD
+Jack Walters SCIENCE!
hemp
and science. never underestimate science
+Jack Walters Is fortify illusion a good enchantment?
Freeze at 10:00
"We are in search of knights who will join me in my court of Camelot!"
The resemblance is uncanny
“It could grip it by the husk!”
Unladen swallows
I wore/wear alot of stuff on my hard hat.
At nights, which I spent 8 years working, there would be
2 head torches, ear defenders, safety goggles, safety glasses in a pouch on the back which also had spare batterys and writing implements. People would comment on how heavy it was but it never bothered me.
After being off work for 18months my neck which was a solid lump of hard muscle previously has become soft and I can easily squeeze my tensed neck as before I couldn't. You get used to the extra weight and your muscles grow, saying that I wore my helmet all for 8 hours a day sometimes 12, I doubt someone would be using a coif that much but it's something to think about
That padded thing looks like the Soviet Era tanker's helmet.
Form typically follows function.
I'd be sweating so much with all that shit on my head.
I guess the crusades did take place in a hot climate
+Propane Daddy still though. Hot as hell, regardless of outside temperature.
mail is pretty cool if you keep it out of the sun
Gloin79 in battle you'd probably be in the sun, though.
KIJIJI ALLIN better sweating than bleeding.
2 years later...Were any authentic examples of these ever found? What did you conclude? Did you make one in the chin-covering style? So many questions...
@@kristofantal8801 That is an interesting picture. It does seem quite unwieldy.
@@seabass8154 And that's how it works. Lindy was wrong, he didn't look after it on that topic. I would rather suggest you to watch Knyght Errant's (response) video.
czcams.com/video/0BvhLHnO9HE/video.html
The coif consisted of several parts and fit snugly on the chin because an extra element was attached to it, called "aventail". Their heads are so round because they put a hidden helmet (called "cervelliere
", or skull cap)
under their coif to protect their skulls. It’s in the Bible, too, only Lindy didn’t show it.
Have you considered using felt (the material rather than the past tense of the verb to feel). Felt packs a lot of dense padding into less thickness and is known to have been used in armour.
A coif might be cooler on a battlefield in the Middle East. Maybe the relative thinness of the padding and the use of a coif instead of a helmet was related to thermal considerations, hence why it was developed during the Crusades?
Also, maybe the reason some of them coifs have the mail going in different directions and have bands on them is because they weren't tailor made like the kind we think of, maybe some coifs were strips of mail that would be wrapped around the head, chin, and neck of the wearer, similar to a Middle Eastern head wrap? Maybe the Crusades were the inspiration for the whole thing...
I lke the heat explanation, though it may not be true. The different directions of mail were an art short-cut.
@@MonkeyJedi99 artistic short cut or not... some of the coifs in the pictures he shows look like there is a flap that goes over the chin covering the throat
My understanding is that armored fighters would take off their helmets outside combat but continue to wear the coifs for some protection at all times. So I suspect the coif and padding/leather would have more emphasis on comfort, the heavy metal you put over top of it would take care of the rest.
you are all idiots talking out of your asses like lindy. he is a moron. they were wearing cervellieres under the coif, so they had impact protection from a metal helmet. lindy just didn't bother to look into it, nor any of you.
Virginia Hansen I wonder if there wasn’t a degree of wrapping like a metal head scarf that may have been a stylish flourish picked up during the crusades as esprit de corps among crusaders
You think mail coifs are not as simple as they seem?
Try femail coifs!
Lol
Ba-dum-chh~~
I don't think they polish those....some give headaches😃
I see what you've done here...
10/10 90's hack comedian joke
The period when the coif-only look becomes more common in the contemporary artwork coincides with the time that the Cervelliere (metal skullcap) became popular. I believe this answers several of the questions that he brings up in this video. People depicted with what appears to be only a coif for head protection probably have a Cervelliere on underneath. This could also explain why the padded arming caps were generally not massive and stuffed with huge amount of padding like the one he made. In regards to the Visby skulls, I think the most likely explanation is that these soldiers were probably wearing helmets that were taken and the mail simply left behind. That, or they were simply poor and a coif is all they could afford.
Perhaps they switched during the Crusades because of the heat of the middle east and Africa, or because it was cheaper and easier to make/used less materials or lower quality materials
One thing about the thickly padded coif is that it looks absolutely ridiculous, which could play a part in the reason why people had thinner ones. Never underestimate the desire of a warrior to look cool. As someone in the military you spend a lot of your time around your close friends who will rip you apart with banter if you look stupid. Maybe they didn't want to be the guy who shows up for formation only to have his entire unit laugh at him for looking like a big headed buffoon.
if everyone had to wear thick padding to survive nobody would laugh wouldn't they? Same with the funny looking helmet's face covering in the other clip.
It's probably wiser to not underestimate a person's desire to live.
In the long run though, whatever looks badass is whatever works. The victorious guy always looks badass standing over the fallen enemy.
@@VanderNugget Mostly true. However really rich knights were known to have many types of armor. Including ceremonial ones. And if an idiot who was not that rich wanted to look (almost) as cool as a knight, he might have bought (he can only have one, since he is not rich) something that looked quite cool, but as armor goes it would be terrible. Stupid people exist, and vanity is not very rare, combine it with the luck, and you can have an idiot, with stupid but cool looking armor, who was among these people who won the battle, and even has the bruises to prove it - from chafing, but who cares? ;)
@@jannegrey593 agreed, who knows how much of the armor in museums today was actually just ceremonial or for showing off in parades?
That life of brian reference, i laughed my ass off :D
Biggus Dickus approved of this
What’s that? Love Easter egg like references can you explain what he said thy was related to that
Why did helmets stop having holes in the sides for your hearing? In ancient times we see them both in the Corinthian helm as well as the Roman helms. So why did they stop? It's not often you get stabbed in the ear from the side, and the holes don't have to be big enough for that anyway, so why not put holes in them again? Did they have something against hearing or something?
The Romans eventually did add ear protections on their helmets in the form of flaps and so did the Migration people have them.
For integrity
"Come on! Who threw that? Who threw that stone? Come on."
"She did! She did! He did! He! He. He. Him. Him. Him. Him. He did."
;)
Thanks for the Monty Python reference
Ni!
JEHOVAH JEHOVAH JEHOVAH
@@LordSniggles **throws stone with religious intent**
Get some thick Balaclavas and put on multiple of them to determine which thickness you would like to have for your padding.
The padding that was used with coifs was much more closely stitched, and far tighter. It was gambeson, and also served as armour over the body. Gambeson for the body was 10-15 layers of wool, and gambeson for the head was usually 3-5 layers of wool, which were stitched close and tight, to be about 12-15 mm for the body and about 5 mm for the head. It starts as being quite rigid, but softens over time to become quite pliable.
They might have been good against arrows or spears, they would be lighter and more flexible than plate helmets. Though they would still need padding (of course) to reduce the percussive effects of a projectile, the mail would stop the penetration.
Yeah, I think you're onto something. It seems like you're most likely to be struck by a spear or arrow, not a sword. The other thing is every depiction of the coif shows lots of neck. The coif is generally for neck protection and to fill in the gaps of a helmet in modern recreation, so I expect the depictions of guys without helmets were probably warriors who also had helmets but didn't want to use them or they were knocked off or damaged, or it was artistic license.
Arrows and Spears can easily pierce mail. But it can protect against slashing attacks. And most especially glancing blows
I just love this guy i can just listen to all his videos and be not only interested but reach a level of peace and meditative joy....
What about the femail coif? #lindybeigeissexist #yesallmongols #ottomanprivilege
lol
+Zachary Frankman that reply is stupid reported
+Helix Plays This comment is fucking awesome! Too awesome... Reported.
+Helix Plays Its already Femail.. as its made of iron
+Helix Plays dat pun
You say there are few male coifs left, but might there be female coifs? I notice (because of the patriarchy) chain male comes up a lot, but I've never ONCE heard of chain female. So much work to be done.
It must be lost to the pages of that misogynist His-story. Her-story was not allowed because of rampant sexism and the weekly double secret patriarchy meetings no doubt
+Imperator Augustus I changed my major to Herstory because fuck HIS-story. It was written by a bunch of misogynistic, cis males. Some people and not knowing their privilege, I swear by the bosoms of Anita Sarkisian.
This is a joke right
Joshua Brooks lmao.. u killed me hahahahhaha
I admit it: I was made preemptively mad by this.
PLEASE please post Part II as soon as possible! VERY interesting. Can't wait to see how you resolve this project!
You’ve gained yourself a new subscriber. I stumbled on this channel tonight and you’re SO FUNNY. But also SO INFORMATIVE.
Cheers from North Carolina! Great content!
Great info! Earned a sub from me!
wow, didnt expect to find you here
Ditto. But I didn't expect to find myself here either but here I am, about 50 videos deep into Lindybeige...
Lindybeige, Cody's Lab, now all we need is Grand Illusions.
Hi Cody! Love your videos!
Cody, I'm so glad you found Lindybeige because I've been watching Both of you for quite some time! Great minds truly think alike.
That padded under-hat looks like it would be brilliant for a serious night's piss up.
I believe that it's not that a coif was better than a helmet, it's that it was cheaper while still providing some basic protection
Four years old so IDK why I'm replying to this, but I think there's some nuance here. Mail is expensive as hell.
With a typical helmet like you would've seen earlier in history, sure your dome is safe, but if someone nails you in the neck it's all over. A mail coif gives you significant neck protection which soldiers in earlier times wouldn't have had. In fact everything but your face is protected. Sure, if someone whacks you over the head it'll hurt more than it would have with a solid metal helmet, but you'll survive, probably.
Of course if you wear a helmet on top of it all, which is what nobles did a little later in the late Crusades, even better. But if you had to choose one, not getting your jugular sliced is pretty convincing.
I stop by this video every now and then it always cheers me up
And he never came back to this.
He didn't?
can you blame him?
@@captaintyrrell6428
Well, it would have been interesting, and he was clearly on to something.
After all, it could set a new and true standard for live-action movies and reenactments.
@RubberyCat- In this instance he was out of his depth and waffling a lot (and he knew it). There are literally hundreds of medieval British tombs featuring knights wearing coifs in both 3d statues and 2d brass panels... His experiment/abortion of padding could have been averted by a bit more research than a probable Google image search.
@@captaintyrrell6428
You mean he was utterly wrong this time?
I suspect that the section that runs under the chin is a flap that is attached near the ear, thus allowing the coif to be snug fitting whilst also being able to be removed.
This is real history, investigating and testing, rather than simply accepting what we're told or presented with on TV, and it's ongoing, not concluding neatly as TV programmes think they must do. I love your videos. Sooner or later the TV people will come with a brilliant deal, but never forget these CZcams roots because the TV trade-off is a sacrifice of control. Others always think they know better.
Cheers ...first laugh I had today was you putting that on
Hope you actually see this, but as it seems nobody else has made any suggestions to how you would make a coif that could fit over your chin and neck, I propose that you might make a coif that opens in the back; the point that should see less action would be the structural weak point, and you pull the coif onto your face and hook it up at the back of the head and neck. I don't particularly know of any great disadvantages to this, and only strikes to the very back of the head and neck could potentially jeopardize your safety. *Again, I hope you see this comment, Lindy*
Maybe those skulls had thin padding because those with thicker padding didn't get killed?
Looking forward to actually seeing the finished stuff.
laughed out loud from the end credits joke! Brilliant video as per usual!
My theory is that the mail coif was intended to protect you against pigeons.
+Renkin42 (thebluemarauder) but wouldn't it's air speed velocity also be a factor? also if it's laden or unladen?
+Renkin42 (thebluemarauder) yes but if some European swallows were carrying a coconut that would be pretty bad too
In the german historian museum in Berlin there is a Persian armour used by the Ottomans and they wear huge helmets because underneath it they had huge turbans. That must be uncomfortable to move your head...
***** What do you mean by that?
***** It was a Persian armour and the helmet was huge and in the little information was written that it was because of the helmets. Come visit Berlin and check the museum out. It is worth it. "Deutsch historisches museum".
Anthony ofWindsor Mmm! Interesting!
The original bigwigs perhaps
Mmm! Quite.
New sub here, thank you so much for making these videos! Extremely, extremely interesting and I really appreciate your efforts.
Ahh, nearly three years later and I keep coming back to this just for that reveal of the super-padded coif that looks like a cross between a boxer's guard a high court wig.
First time I saw that I thought I was going to pass out from laughter.
One of his finer moments. :)
A possibility for wearing a coif instead of a helmet may be that the crusaders wanted more air flow to their heads in the arid regions of the Levant/Anatolia.
+Virtrial Except there were battles (such as Hastings) where knights wore coifs on temperate conditions.
+PcGenie2 I am not aware of armored men being depicted without helmets at Hastings, all of them are depicted with helmets.
+Neutral Fellow And didn't they have coif underneath the helmet?
Tholfend Some did, some others perhaps did not.
Neutral Fellow Yeah, but head would be pretty heavy then, right?
"you MUst use padding otherwise they're FLIPPING useless" favorite line.
Mr Beige! I hail from new york city and there is a fantastic special armor exhibit featuring a collection of Maximillian (1459-1519) at the Met, where a coif is on display much like the one you made in this video. I couldnt help but think back to when i saw this and found a huge amount of appreciation for their inclusion of something so rare. they also included armor made specifically for jousting with mechanical parts in the breast plate that im sure you would appreciate. cheers man i love your channel! let me know if you would like pictures from the exhibit
"I will be coming back to this subject when ive got a little bit further."
Siri; play "Sounds of Silence."
Congratulations, with the big wolly you arrived at a knock off of Soviet tanker cap, more or less..
Look forward viewing your whole catalogue.
Brilliant Life of Brian reference.
+Nate Wynd (ThatNateGuy) why so few likes???
I imagine a cloth lined leather headpiece under it would have been practical enough.
I think one advantage of having mail that isn't so closely tailored to your neck is that it offers more protection. It creates a buffer space. The weapon has to move all that mail in towards your neck in order to make contact, which will slow it down. In addition, as it's doing that, the mail will inevitably fold in on itself, effectively doubling the thickness. Sure it's slightly more unwieldy, but I think it's definitely a worthy trade off.
It is two pieces of mail. The chin piece ties to the head piece like a head band type thinger. Also coifs were cheaper. That's why they went back to them. The rich still wore the helmets and even coifs under the helmets at times to protect their chin without limiting vision. Your channel is awesome btw, I hope this helps!
you padding looks like a soviet style tank helmet
+DUKE NUKEM
I was reminded at an good ol victorian jugde...^^
+DUKE NUKEM I was going to say the same
The mail flopping around when you move your head is oddly intriguing
+Dr. Gazooks agreed upon
it really is, isn't it
I vividly recall the day this video was uploaded.
Golly, it’s been 5 years.
Those skulls with the mail coifs still on them look badass!
A year on from the original publication of this video Lloyd. Any chance you'll revisit this topic soon? I'm curious to see if you've made any progress or drawn any new conclusions. Love the content btw. Cheers.
I'm from the future, and the answer is no
Im from the further future... still no
@@thrand6760 I'm from the further further future, still no
MegaMGstudios sadly
lol
It's also worth noting that Lindy's ultra-cap would get EXTRAORDINARILY hot during combat. I do a spot of re-enactment, and the arming caps we wear under our helmets (we use solid helms because of the mercenary company we play) are no more than a centimetre of quite dense padding.
+Beet McGee I did not have such experiences. It does get warm but not so extreme as to use caps lock.
Neutral Fellow I think you've misunderstood me
Beet McGee Oh, now I re read and saw that you meant the very thick Lindy cap :) My bad.
hahahaha love the nod to Python.... again brilliantly informative, keep it up!
I have a mail coif of my own and every time I look down I have the front part of the mantle dangling in front of my face. I then got the idea of tying a bit of string around my neck to keep it in place. Now along with the mail staying in place where it should be, I can move my head about more easily because I didn't have to deal with the extra weight of mail dangling off my chin like you were describing.
11:18 When you shake your head with the half finished coif on you look like Uma Thurman in Pulp Fiction, it's lovely
+sonny19931 Now THAT, I did not expect.
Hyped for the next video on coifs.
It's been a few years since this was posted - did the coif chin cover ever get made and is there a link to what it looks like?
The amount of memes you can make from this episode... Pausing at nearly any moment with Lindy in the frame is a goldmine.
Didn't they have a flap of some sort that would be fastened on one side of the face, and then pulled across the chin and the mouth, and then fastened on the other side? I remember seeing images where this reaches under the chin, and seems to hold the coif closer to the neck
+eyegrinder94 Yes, sometimes called a 'ventail'. That does not seem to be what is pictured in the examples I gave, though.
+Lindybeige Maybe the strap across the temple was what the ventail attached to, or held a flap that hung down over the ventail attachment point? That would explain why the paintings looked like the chin section looked 'wrapped' around the fact. Doesn't solve the neck issue though, nor does it resemble the statues.
avintail seems to come in at later century around the 13c 14c and the maile of the avintail was often sewn on to the edge
+Lindybeige I think it appears a lot in "Byzantine"and Turkish art though, albeit I'd have to check some examples.
+eyegrinder94 Yes(and no). What your describing is a variant. Widely used, but by no meanings universal.
send this padded coif to skallagrim for cut testing.
+Sean Lynch My thoughts exactly!
I love your silly looking home made padded hat. Thanks for sharing!
I made one many years ago with chin protection, and an undercut. I left some slack on the sides of the neck to aid turning the head, and laced up at the back of the base of the skull to be able to get it on and off. The undergarment was quilted, about 4 layers of blanket thick (same as the undergarment for my chainmail tunic).
That thing ended looking like a powdered wig XD
Keep up the good work, Lindy ^^
When you turned your head to the camera wearing the mail coif, the chainmail flapped about i wanted you to say " Armor, because i'm worth it"
Just discovered this channel. Very informative, and love the way you present this. Is there a sequel where you have your finished coif?
He is wrong with the coifs... I reccomend you to watch Knyght Errant video.
Lol! I love that you got that far before realizing it was too big.
"You're not going to cut through it!"
Don't tell that to the katana fan-boys.
+Lord Roc *didnt get the joke*
***** what the... bruh, my comment was telling you that he was making a joke, what are you still doing here
Essentially a metal ski-mask in design. Also, it looks like - in that bible - the artist depicts them wearing the mail as one does a Keffiyeh or similar 'desert' style head scarf oh-so-popular with the tacticool folks nowadays. Much similar 'tucks' and folds. Perhaps they actually could be folded in such a way. Perhaps they are not 'tailored' to a certain shape at all but are just a large rectangular sheet. This would make production easier - I do not mean ALL mail coifs of course but it makes perfect sense that a 'knight on the cheap' would find a way to make it work sensibly. Simply a square or rectangular sheet of mail folded like a keffiyeh or similar head scarf. Someone with an authentic sheet let me know. I'm dying to know if I've discovered something.
I'm with you on that. The way they look in the images is very much putting me in mind of a hijab, which is much the same as what you're suggesting. Just without being wrapped around, though, as I can't imagine the extra weight would be workable.
It's called an aventail
I was thinking a similar thing. If you look at the ladies head gear or wrapped scarves they have the similar wrap lines. This would also make the thin strip a more purposeful as if the end tapered and one tucked the tie under their chin it could tie the end and also act like a somewhat chin strap to keep from unraveling. Think of a tapered banner shaped mail strip and then just simply start by holding the thick section on your cheek and then wrap it around maybe starting to go over your head after going around your neck would give a usale wrap of armor. These would then also be very easy to make as they would be maybe just two lengths and would fit anyone.
Maybe that kaffiyeh design was taken during the Crusades.
I was thinking the same thing. To cover the face with a kefiyeh you need to fold it diagonally tho. Seems kinda shitty wearing a double layer of chains...
from the research I did when I made mine, and I found illustrations that showed that the part that covers the chin is actually constructed as a flap that is contiguous with the right side of the cheek mail and is pulled up and laced to the leather band that sits alongside the left temple. This allows the lower half of the coif to fit closer to the neck and provides the larger area through which to fit the head as you put it on.
Every video is excellent and I’m coming to terms with that
Your padding coif looks like a Renaissance wig, maybe that was the other function of those wigs, to protect agains slashing things :D
Court wig.
Knowlage
blunt trauma, they were useless against slashing things. Which backs up your comment if the toffs of the time were defending against stones and bottles etc lol
I would not use your first impression of the weight of the mail on your head and neck as an indicator that your first design must be too thick or heavy. Always your equipment will feel too clumsy and heavy when you first try it on. It can take a week or more before your muscles become accustomed to an unfamiliar load.
I am reminded of the clutch on Ducati motorcycles which feel absurdly stiff and heavy if you have not been riding for a while. They almost feel unusable. In fact, I would get cramps in my forearms when riding in city streets where I had to use the clutch a lot. A lot of people go through a lot of trouble replacing the clutch cylinder to “fix” this. But if you stick with it and ride with the clutch as designed you will find that after a week you don’t even notice it at all... it’s the same when pulling a cross-now. At first it feels wrong. Soon it feels right. And shooting slugs out of a shotgun - at first you get bruises on your shoulder and the whole experience just seems crazy. After some regular practice it’s no big deal.
Hearing that last one about the shotties makes me warrant giving shotguns another try.
I'm a dishwasher where I work at the moment. I used to whine and groan at sticking my hands in sanitizing solution hot enough to poach an egg, but now I barely feel it! As long as I don't keep them in there for long, that is. Also, I don't get wrinkly grandpa hands from the water anymore either!
Fun fact: when your hands get all wrinkly from the water, it also makes you much more vulnerable to cuts! I don't know the science behind it, but that's what happens to me!
Ah, the heady days 0f 1978 when I carried a pocket of Ducati 450 clutch springs to replace (in the car park) the ones that I de-tempered on my ride to the pub. The standard SS ones just didn't cope at all. My left hand could crush even really big biscuits. I could almost operate a Jota clutch. I now have a hydraulic clutch as I am old and feeble, and operate it with one finger.
Nah, padded stuff really only needs to be thick enough to take the sting out or at least prevent the rings being driven into you. Ultimately it isn't meant to soak up blows, it's meant to act as a defence to all the blows you don't block with your shield - given that we're in the mail era.
Another thing is that thinner padding means a blow is more likely to slide off the mail. Too thick and the blow can sink into the padding plus too thick and you're adding a massive heat sink to your head.
Gambesons can be thick, at least the ones worn on their own with maybe jack chains, but anything under armour would have been thinner as chain takes a huge amount of force out of a blow and doesn't need a lot of padding underneath to be effective.
@@Catubrannos Not a thing that I would care to test unless I was the one with the mace or axe, testing which was best at absorbing a crushing blow. Newton rules.
Hello Lindy! I recently did some research and experiments myself and came to a revelation regarding the coif shape and how to get it from today's "movie version" (11:00) to "closely historic" (05:40).
It can be done with normal padding (as well as that metal brain cap) underneath, only adds two laces, and only needs the wearer to tie one bow, in the same spot you'd tie a modern hoodie.
The best of it: You can still throw the coif back like a hood easily without undoing any laces!
I gathered the first thing to rot away and never be recovered were probably laces, so I added two to make the coif look and work very much like in the paintings. (Although the top concentric looking part at 12:38 almost certainly is an added coifette ontop there, and I don't have one here.)
It makes the entire thing very comfortable to wear and allows for a lot of head movement.
Would you like me to tape how its done?
lindy, you are very entertaining to listen to.
Who is this guy? How come he has 190000 subscribers and i never heard of him? How come he's so unknown and yet so informative and funny? Whence did he appeareth unto my recommendeth listh?
Subscribed.
Yeah he's all over my recommended vids, very suddenly. And yeah, totally subbin dis
+Cristi Neagu Welcome, you will enjoy this channel.
+Cristi Neagu "informative" is arguable
The best coif channel on youtube :D
Lindy, please do consider giving us updates to your old videos. Such as this one!
Seems the most reasonable explanation is that the combination of the mail coif with 3-4 layers of padding achieved the greatest protective effect.
Maybe they went awhile without much conflict and just started doing coifs since they seemed like they would offer protection but be lighter. Then once real conflict came again, they realized they needed something that worked.
Perhaps they changed to coifs during the Crusades because of the heat? And maybe they became glorified in the Military, kind of like the Bayonet and was used past it's time. IDK, just a thought I had.
IIrc, remembering back into the 80's , I think the Higgins Armorial Museum in Worcester Mass. USA has some coifs on display. I went there, and was awed by their collection!
I made a mail byrnie and a coif based on the pictures of the Bayeaux Tapestry from Nat'l Geo photos.
Cody at Cody's Lab has made a nice suit of mail too.
Really good stuff. Love your enthusiasm and delivery. You remind me of someone...maybe Robert Llewellyn ?
Interesting. Regards your, as not yet revealed, hypothesis. Throughout history there has been and always will be a trade off between protection vs manoeuvrability, sight, hearing and breathing. Finding the right balance is always difficult. I have worn many different helmets from across the centuries. throughout human history, if I had to choose one, I would choose the classical Roman Legionary helmet. (Maybe using kevlar rather than metal but that is just hypothetical). I say this because I think it has got the balance right. The helmets from the medieval that encase the head, offer great protection, but you can't breathe, see or hear - they feel quite claustrophobic. The visor was improvement but being able to hear is a problem. Obviously modern warfare is quite different because bullets and bombs are the order of the day, helmets are designed to deflect bullets and shrapnel rather than stop them.
Another point, which is often overlooked, is the effect of concussion. Any blow to the skull, be it a pole arm, sword or even an arrow has the ability to knock you out. While the arrow, for example, may not penetrate; it is heavy and travelling at c.150 mph; it is going to hurt. How many cricketers have been concussed after being hit in the helmet by a cricket ball travelling at 80mph? A few. There has been a big thing about it right across sport, particularly the NFL, even as they wear padded helmets.
Going back to the padded coifs, the big advantage over the helmet, is for the two aforementioned explanations. Visibility, hearing and breathing is greatly improved. The mail, coming up round the chin is akin to the styles of plate. Like I said, it doesn't matter what you wear on your head, one blow and you could be knocked out, then finished off.
Using the information of head trauma, that we have through modern science, set up some mannequins in different armours and helmets and measure the force from direct impacts to the head of different weapons, a poleaxe, axe, mace, sword, morning star, arrow and bolt. Examine what the results be in terms of concussion, not just cuts and breaks.
+falcons1988 Yes, the aspect of balance in armour is a rather important one, and is at times overlooked even today when building modern armour. We have loads of examples from the last several decades of soldiers simply ditching vital parts to armour systems that would have otherwise saved them on the grounds that they're flipping heavy and hot to lug around.
The amount of time that one spends IN combat, even while out on war, is relatively small. As such it is very easy to decide that "Hey, this heavy, hot, and awkward thing? yeah,... It really isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things, so I'll just leave this here..."
Another important aspect to armour is that it isn't something that only needs to protect you, but also needs to allow you to still fight. We've had the technology to make effectively armoured barrels, which would be dreadfully difficult to kill a man hiding inside of, but would be rather useless when it came to trying to kill someone while you're protected by it.
So Lindy's first go at the armour? Honestly I don't think the biggest flaw is the strain on the neck, as getting more of the coif done would make it far better balanced than it is, and offset some of the currently exaggerated force, but rather I think the biggest flaw in armour like that is going to be heat stroke.
I'm Canadian, and I don't wear clothing that would insulate as much as that thing must even in the dead of winter here.
+RealLuckless Heatstroke or heat exhaustion is important. In the Northern European cold winter climates is one thing, but certainly in the middle-east. The 'great-helms', jeepers imagine fighting in that thing in the middle-east. Hearing, Breathing and Sight is difficult enough, but the added heat as well. Fair play to the guys who fought in it.
it'd make more sense if the padding and the mail was sewn together so that the mail does't move around too much so it's probably one piece.
Do you sew your underpants to your jeans?
Or your jacket to your shirt?
Or your shoes to your socks?
Alexander but those are day to day accessories, while a padding and mail are military grade gear, albiet outdated, and if it's true what Lindy sais, those two things are to be always used together
They weren't always used together; mail was always worn with padding, but padding wasn't always worn with mail, so sewing them together would be counterproductive.
I don't believe that's relevant. If you attach two pieces of layered clothing together you restrict mobility and decrease comfort. Two things you don't really want to do.
That's why smithing evolved over the time I think, trough finding ways to fit stronger protection in less restricting ways
I feel so enlightened and sophisticated
The leather cord around the head stabilized the coif such that it would not shift out of position, acting as sort of a headband. The mail was attached to the padding underneath, making a composite. The lower face (chin) mail was pointed to the upper section, and could be removed on one side for better ventilation when not needed. A coif needs a mantle to protect the neck, and this was also lightly padded. The amount of padding was somewhere between what you demonstrated, as it was a compromise. This is probably the best interpretation out there because it WORKS. I am an armourer myself, and if there's one thing we know, if it didn't work, it wasn't done that way.