This Technology Could Revolutionize Winter Jackets
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- čas přidán 11. 05. 2024
- The Jackets Tested in this Video:
L.L. Bean Aerogel Jacket: geni.us/saBd
Black Diamond Aerogel Jacket: geni.us/uo6Yp2
Arc'teryx Down Jacket: geni.us/4POQcBE
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L.L. Bean Aerogel Jacket: geni.us/ns6eG
Black Diamond Aerogel Jacket: geni.us/p4Kl3p
Arc'teryx Down Jacket: geni.us/Sw63m
I'd like to add a special thanks to Fred for his sacrifices in the pursuit of science and better backpacking technologies Fred you're a true hero
He says “it’s all in a days work”
that rig you designed will have more use the more jackets you test. Over time the data set you create can be compared to industry data and subjective opinions with patterns in the data being used to either correlate the data or to tune you own rig. In the end the use of a test you devised yourself covering these articles of definitely kept me watching.
@@MyLifeOutdoors we will never forget!!!
@@MyLifeOutdoors Is there anything you won't promote, given enough money?
Thank you Fred.
11-52 percent warmer- that's a hell of a range!
It's so wide it's almost meaningless.
A range that wide is indicative of a lack of, or just bad testing
Yeah, that range was already a red flag and indicative for marketing bs.
Makes sense if you’re comparing it against different existing insulation materials, which appears to be what they are claiming.
They just forgot to add that down was !
"People who have quite a bit of money"
Dude that arcteryx is like double the cost of the ll bean.
True. Arcteryx has also become a status brand lately too, so you pay a premium for them - tho arguably they have better tech and your dollar goes further than LL Bean (in my experience of gear with both brands.) LL Bean isn't about spending your money on quality of gear but more for the logo and what it 'stands' for to people who see it. North Face is the same these days despite previously being about top quality technical gear, and yes, Arcteryx is heading that way (also Fjallraven.)
Arcteryx products will make you feel warmer and dryer knowing you are better than other people. A feeling you can only buy with money.
I actually was going to agree with you but then I checked the links he provided to the jackets in the description and they're all comparably priced right now, but the down Arcteryx is on sale from 400.
true, although I only buy Arc'teryx when it's on sale :D
@@lolapplesauce Only because the ArcTerex is on closeout on one single color. Even that one closeout color is $80 more than standard retail LLBean pricing.
I just want to say I really appreciate how concise this video is. A lot of other channels would've stretched this to a 21 minute mini documentary with a bunch of unrelated filler
MLO solidifying its niche as the Mythbusters of Backpacking CZcams. Love these videos!
I’m honored
Rates right up there with Project Farm
Loved the fact that you mentioned straight forwardly that you're not tearing the jackets apart. It would be a deal breaker for some watching the video for the most exact scientific purposes, so I appreciate your honesty.
Interesting approach! The video is well done. I'd say at minimum you need a control though. Fred without a jacket so you could see how the heater behaves. Even better would be multiple measurements for each jacket. I definitely appreciate you buying this stuff so I don't have to!
Yeah, I question this methodology as someone who owns one of those chest freezers. They're like +/- 10 degrees before they kick on, meaning the freezer may not have turned on at all for the first jacket, just cooling it ambiently. If it reached it's +10 degree trigger temperature for the second jacket, it may have been working to actively cool the second jacket instead, and potentially to a considerably cooler temperature then the first even experienced in its hour.
Running the experiment for far longer and averaging each hour would be the easiest way to account for this. I think, if you wanted to absolute BEST experimental conditions though, not only is a control needed, but I'd recommend leaving all of the equipment in the freezer for several hours to let it all come to the same starting temperature, measuring the temperature in the freezer itself at the start of each test to rule out any large ambient temperature differentials between the tests, and THEN turning the heaters on with the freezer unplugged to rule out any interference from the freezer itself. Then you could measure the amount of energy it takes to bring each jacket to temperature, and the amount of time it takes to bring each jacket to temperature, which should give you cleaner data. Energy spent "maintaining temperature," as a real world reference, sounds good in theory, but there's too many variables to account for. This way you would also have the ambient temperature gauge in the freezer itself to provide a secondary data point, where a quicker rising, or higher overall, ambient temperature of the freezer itself would be the direct result of more heat loss from the jacket. Makes for a nice succinct experiment with three data points (time to target temperature, energy used to reach target temperature, freezer ambient temperature) that you can use to help isolate error as well.
And synthetic vs synthetic not vs down. The reason synthetic is potentially better than down is that synthetic can still insulate when wet and down can't.
It would also have been cool to see Steven test under the lens of a thermal camera and time how long it takes down vs primaloft to maintain a certain threshold of body temperature under static conditions.
Have project farm run the test. He definitely had the engineering chops to design an objective test
@@UIairi This defeniterly deserves another more thourough test! The fact that the heavier jacket supposedly from the same material performed worse than the lighter one is already kind of a red flag.
I'm just glad to see that Fred got more work. It's been a long time since I am Legend.
lol…good one!
I love how you just crush their dreams with a casual experiment. Bravo🎉
It's so nice to see actual objective testing of outdoor gear. This video earned my subscription.
I agree, this was a really good test setup. I'm impressed!
I agree with Fred.
Thank you for going through the trouble!
Way to go Steven, that was quite clever!!! Love it!!!😊
Dude. This is the most rigorous outdoor apparel insulation review I’ve seen on CZcams, and I’ve seen _many_ . Great work! Much respect.
Out of curiosity, have you ever come across content specifically aimed at hotter climates? It was a pretty miserable year in Texas last summer and I was looking for central and upper South America outdoor gear. Strangely, I discovered Columbia seemed to have an extremely nice climate, even though in my mind, I always just assumed equator equals super hot. Maybe it's just a more intense sun. I found some Columbia hot weather gear but so much was kind ugly with American flags or fish or hunting branding. Thanks in advance!
@@jinxtacy I’ve started paying attention to this kind of gear too. Outdoor Research has a pretty amazing material, “Ferosi,” which I’ve used in a wide range of climates, including Subsaharan Africa. It blocks sun and dries very quickly. Helly Hansen’s sun shirts are very nice in hot weather. Sitka, a hunting brand, has some items for the heat… but your color choices are limited to earth tones and camouflage.
Drying time and protection from the sun seem, to me, to be the best indicators for how comfortable something’s going to be in the heat… covering up in the heat, while it seems counterintuitive, keeps you cooler than exposing skin; not least because sunburned skin is really bad at regulating temperature. I swear we’re all going to be dressed like the Bedouin soon.
@@chrisoffersen thank you for all the insight and recommendations on stuff to look into. I was actually looking at arabian clothes since I had some friends that went to do some work in Saudi Arabia and he was wearing one. I also saw some elderly female Indian immigrant women walking around when it was still quite hot out and it looked like they were wearing a ton of clothes. Been listening to some material engineer podcasts which started me thinking about various textiles. Seems like a pretty constrictive industry as they were saying one and a half cents per whatever unit they measure in can make an alternative material unviable in the marketplace so often the goal is to make a superior material that is equal or cheaper to the standard materials. It's super crappy to think about that we might be able to have much better materials for an extra few cents per garment, but they'll never manifest unless there's a potential marketing angle.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
There is so much marketing hype in outdoor gear it is good to see some exposed!
Interesting, I was just sat at work googling this topic today. I literally just pressed play, I'm so excited to see what you've got to say on this topic. Love your stuff man, high class content.
I really like your controlled environment testing. Thanks for doing these!
This was very informative. Can you use your testing chamber for multiple different brands of jackets? Would love to see the Patagonia range of jackets go against the Arcteryx range!
This!
Yesssss
Please!
Would be cool to see side by side w typical thickness wool jacket, down jacket, and winter fleece jacket. Nothing excessive thick, just sort of typical thickness each generally are sold as.
Yes I would love to see how the Torrid Apex by Enlightened Equipment performs. I’d also love to see how different layerings and different materials perform. Primaloft vs Climashield Apex vs Lamilite. Wool vs Alpaca. Omniheat vs non thermal reflective lined garments. I know Omniheat works but just how much better does it work? Love to see some numbers.
Thanks for this! Only thing is I wish you'd done a control with no jacket on the dummy on the freezer
Then the pad runs for 60 minutes. What do you learn from that?
@@PhilKulak base line cost. you're assuming it would run the full time.
@@PhilKulak well you personally could start by learning the purpose of a control
I appreciate all the time and trouble you went to to make a thorough test on these jackets.
Thank you.... Always appreciate your hard work and honesty!
Thank you! I am allergic to down so this may be my alternative (for casual hiking).
Regular synthetic insulation will also probably work just fine for your needs! If you're not backpacking, the slightly higher weight and bulk shouldn't be a huge consideration.
@@mitchellclark2786Agreed, synthetic also works. It’s just heavier and more bulky.
Fred should do a comparison with a primaloft gold jacket too. I’m not convinced the primaloft aerogel is much better.
The insulating properties of the fill are far less important than people are led to believe. What matters for an outdoor activity jacket in winter is how the humidity is managed. You can see on the LL Bean jacket with the aerogel that there is condensate forming around the underarms (3:39). This water then has to evaporate, and for this it will use the heat from your body, which is why you feel cold. The only way around this problem is to add loft so as to reduce the temperature gradient between the inside and the outside, so that the water vapor will not condense close to the body, but escape as vapor slowly through the outside of the shell. This is the advantage of wool, and why Scandinavians like to wear loose wool sweaters on the outside. It reduces condensate and reduces the heat loss in the process. The test model in the freezer, not sweating, totally overlooks this crucial problem.
what about his subjective test? he did swap back and forth for quite some time
Wicking base, merino sweater mid layer, loose Icelandic wool outer sweater is a GOAT setup
@@highviewbarbell sounds promising setup, but how about the wind?
@@cubertmiso4140 does better than you think even with the holes, but you can always put a thin windbreaker between the two sweaters (giant poofy one still on outside)
@@highviewbarbell thanks! just saw cheap merinowool underwear kit bargain, this pushes even more to finally test it.
I would love to see you test more winter gear with that setup. Awesome work.
Thanks for this. I have wondered the difference myself for some time. Being a down guy, I am cheered that I did not succumb and spend the extra money for the tempting new product. Thanks Again.
Nice! Really informative. Loved the method of testing, great idea.
Steven, your level of dedication to the outdoor gear is quite impressive! And hilarious too 😅 You make my total obsession with gear seem like a hobby. Great work! Also happy to see that down is still in front. Major respect to you!!
Be careful…my gear hobby became my job. But I love it.
I really enjoy your testing videos and your scientific method. Keep em coming!!
that was a great video! I'm thoroughly impressed . That was one of the most scientific test on jackets.
There’s a similar material/insulation used in some motorcycle clothing, known as Outlast, also developed by NASA to line spacesuits.
I have one such garment and it’s my go-to winter warmer, absolutely brilliant.
The Arc'teryx down jacket I got at a 1/2 price sale years ago has been a constant companion. It's patched and worn thin but is still my favorite insulating layer under a shell. They wisely made the top shoulder and bottom sleeve baffles with polar guard because these are the most likely spots to get wet. I'd buy another in a heartbeat except for the price which keeps me patching my old one.
their hard shell jackets are also top notch.. i had mine for 15 years now and only this year it got too shaby to really be useful.
Zero excuse for charging the amount of money they are. They are opportunists.
and "woke" mofos to boot!@@JoeyBoBoey
Eh
Legitimately impressed with the testing. Nice work!
They should make camping dishware out of that stuff. A lighter-yet-more-insulated mug or thermos would be a better use.
I think it’d be like making a plate out of chalk? Honestly, it’d be better to just use styrofoam and be careful with it. Super light, insulates well, and is extremely cheap.
He did say that Aerogel is very brittle.
it can be lighter by using plastic and aerogel instead of steel but vacuum is best instulator so it is very hard to make the existing ones better
@@toastreconso don't make a plate put of it...
A mug with a stabilizing external layer and aerogel insulation might be very nice, tho
@@squidge903 Yeah, that would work! I know my old JetBoil mug has a little insulation layer around it. Other people will make something out of "reflectix" that's very cheap. Would be interesting to find out the performance of that aerogel combo and one layer of reflectix.
Should compare the two when humid / wet.
💯🎯
Yup! And how breathable they are.
Thank you for doing your very best to as thoroughly test like this as you possibly can👍🏻
This info could possibly save a newbie or one that trusts manufacturers blindly from suffering hypothermia or worse.
Enjoy each of your videos and learn from each.
Fred, that one got me chuckling😂😂😂😂
Great video, and very interesting way to test the jackets! I would say testing against other synthetic jackets would be the next step. Time to get "Project Farm" all up in this!
I think aerogel might have its uses, for example in shoe insoles where down is not an option. Jacket insulation is feasible but more development is likely necessary to outperform other solutions
Good idea. It's a bit stiff however so aerogel may detract from cushioning. Plain old foil works well in such insoles with a fleece top layer. The only aerogel insoles I've seen use this primaloft version which is actually sheet insulation with some aerogel fibres woven in. Lundhags sell trekking insoles with primaloft "aerogel"
Well done. Interesting test.
Well-designed and -conducted studies. Thank you.
What a set up Fred! The other conclusion is your subjective test in the woods is actually pretty good.
Jack Wolfskin had an alternative to down. I think they called it microguard superloft. Basically it should have the same properties as down while being hydrophobic, so it still does it‘s job when wet. Never had one of these jackets though.
If your jacket is getting holes in it you have bigger issues than getting wet.
Aerogel was first created in 1931, not sure what NASA had to do with that.
Aerogel works well when in encapsulated in a static structure as it's very fragile. Not so well when the structure isn't static, like a coat. It also doesn't pair well with other materials as it loses its insulating properties when there is any interruption in the coverage.
I've owned a Shivershield coat for years. It retains heat amazingly well....and weighs about 5 lbs due to the lining required to maintain it.
@@joewee I mean aerogel was first developed in 1931 and continued to be developed for decades before NASA became a customer of one of the developers.
what needs to be done, if not already, is to create tiny little packets of aerogel, like tiny beanbags or those silica gel packets you find in medication bottles and everywhere else, and pack those into jacket voids. Thereby you would have isolated little nuggets of warmth but it would not impede vapor or gas transmission if you want that as that all can pass around the packets. And you can make the packets sealed waterproof and tight in these little packet nuggets so if they get crushed or whatever it will not matter as I imagine it would last a long time before crumbling into nothingness. If you want to take it further you make the aerogel into a more rigid scaffolding like the pockets of waffles then seal that material. Lots of options could work. Even if the aerogel is crushed into 0.1cm pieces the particles of air trapped are still much much much smaller, so it would not affect the properties of insulation that much at all.
@@johnjingleheimersmith9259 Aerogel doesn't just crush. It collapses into dust.
@@wisenber all that matters is that the "dust" particle sizes are larger than the air voids.
@@johnjingleheimersmith9259 No. The structure is where the insulating properties exist and the structure traps the air. A pile of silica dust doesn't offer any meaningful insulation value as the airvoids no longer exist.
Amazing video! Wow, the work that went into this was impressive. Well done. ✌️
Having worked with them quite a bit in grad school, I just want to say how cool it is that you essentially made a homemade single-zone thermal mannequin!
Now test them whiled wet!
That's when you really need the warmth.
That chamber is terrifying.
One feature that might make a difference in the performance of the down vs the aerogel is that the down is fluffier. That would create slightly less contact between the interior of the jacket and your base layer, and those areas where it’s not touching would form more air pockets.
If you had an aerogel jacket of the same volume and weight as an unpacked down jacket you might get a different result.
The problem is Primaloft are not selling aerogel jackets. Aerogel is stiff and dense. I own one of those Oros Aerogel jackets and a Haglofs lightweight primaloft aerogel insulator. The Haglofs one is pleasant to wear and pretty packable as it's using aerogel infused sheet synthetic insulation. Sheet insulation can be better than down for wind resistance (stitching issues in light down jackets) but it's not as good an insulator. Adding aerogel merely closes the gap to a hugh quality goose down of day 750-800 fill power.
The Oros jacket is an amazing insulator for its thickness. It is heavier than any of my down jackets. It's comparable in weight to my old school waxed cotton and wool insulating coats. My wife sent hers back because she didn't like how hefty it was.
Indeed it's like wearing a suit of insulating armour. There's not a huge market for heavy insulating jackets anymore, no matter how "high tech". Oros seems to be in financial difficulty and are out of stock. Primaloft have produced a good piece of marketing which also insulates well. It's not comparable to pure aerogel or even Oros' tech but it's more marketable.
The video was so good i forgot i was looking for a jacket! So much knowledge, thank you!
I'd love to see a comparison between fleece, down, merino and some other materials with Fred.
Maybe also just a direct comparison of different down qualities, eg. 1000, 900, 800, ... cuin with the same weight per jacket or sleeping bag.
great video, combining new tech with scientific methods is always a good idea :D
Aerogel was created in 1931, 27 years before the creation of NASA.
Wow, this is one of the rare times someone says they’ll investigate something scientifically, and actually does it scientifically. Great video!
Unfortunately, not peer reviewed or tested widely like science would.
And that's what I can call PROPER TEST. welldone. Keep it up.
Thanks for making the video. And I loved the attempt at scientifically testing how warm each was. But it feels like there should be a follow up video comparing aerogel to other synthetics.
i doubt that a normal freezer will give repeatable results. they try to keep the temp in a (somewhat broad) range and only turn on for a short time. so, sometimes, the freezer is just colder than other times. to determine the insulation quality properly, you need to measure both the hot side AND the cold side. thats ∆t. good insulation means a slow rate of change and little energy needed to keep status quo. but if one side is unknown, then ∆t is unknown and the entire experiment becomes meaningless. the higher ∆t is, the greater the rate of change.
tldr: if fridge temp is not repeatable, then it might be warmer or cooler than before. if not measured then numbers do not matter
also, why the mannequin? it just introduced points of error. if the jackets were folded(all the same way), then it'd be better for accuracy
I kept track of the freezer temperature too. It stayed between 9-11F for both jackets. Ironically it got up to 16F for the BD jacket which performed the worst.
@@MyLifeOutdoors ive always wondered: how repeatable is a comercial freezer? when the target is 5F and one where to start at room temp, how much would it overshoot its target (if at all)? would it always take the same time? how close does it stick to its target over a period of time?
such variables need to be known to interpret the numbers correctly
Arc’teryx is just on a whole different level. I’ve worn their jackets through everything. Back country boarding in blizzards, the stuff is just better.
I own an Oros Jacket and they've been making aerogel jacket for many years now. They are a bit heavy though but it keeps me completely warm at sub degree temperatures.
Thanks for the test. Good information!
Given how cruel the production of down is it would be amazing if something could perform better than it.
A lot of down is ethically sourced and I would wager that all the top brands are using GTDS or RDS certified sources which are the strictest. All that cheap ChinaCo. crap on Amazon that ignorant people suck up like water because "Name brands are a rip off!" is where the force fed and live plucked down is going. Even Decathlon uses RDS down and they're able to keep their prices low by using duck down instead of goose or eider down.
I agree down is totally cruel which is why I had a custom made aerogel winter coat made by Prez Atelier and it’s warm and cosy to -10 degrees Celsius. Please understand not all aerogel is created equal. The hybrid material like the aerogels jackets used in this video are not as effective. My jacket is full aerogel blanket 3mm thick and I have used it for 3 years now living in Norway. So for him to say aerogel in general is not as warm as down feather is misleading. Proper aerogel lining which is a bit spongy like mine works brilliantly and I feel the cold easily. It can also be ordered in other thicknesses for colder than -10 degrees Celsius temps. Also, some companies cheat by just using aerogel panels and this doesn’t work either, needs to be full coverage of the whole garment. When NASA made it work for their spacesuits it obviously works and it absolutely works for me.
Id been waiting for someone to do this comparison. Thank you!
Thanks for the honest truth. This actually help us viewers, to decide if it’s worth buying.
Always enjoy your videos, but I'm puzzled why you kept pointing at the LL Bean logo and insinuating that it was super expensive, but didn't mention that the other two jackets are way more expensive than the LL Bean jacket you used in the video. Arc' Teryx is some of THE most expensive gear you can possibly buy.
The whole thing is lame and misleading, from the thumbnail to the actual content of the video.
I never buy down products and I think they're way overhyped.. In addition to the ethical considerations in my opinion a material that becomes essentially useless when it gets wet isn't worth considering for outdoor activities. Obviously this is subjective and depends on what kind of activities are being done but for me I'd much rather have a jacket that I can wear out in the rain and which stays really warm and be a little heavier or to just pack an extra base layer on top of what I would have to with down. I know you can weatherproof gear too but I watched one of your recent videos where you and a friend almost got hypothermia because it let you down and plus I have no interest repeatedly applying chemicals to all of my kit
Re down and ethical considerations: Down is a byproduct of the meat industry, FWIW.
Thanks for mentioning the ethical considerations. Down production is absolutely horrendous and I'm not sure people are aware of it. Yes down performs really well in dry conditions but at what cost to your conscious.
Excellent job and great to know! Leave this to the city folk
Excellent video. Thank you for doing the hard work for this comparison.
Great video, thanks for the effort in testing.
That's one of the most impressive gear tests I have ever seen.
Yeah, I love my down Arc'teryx gear. I don't see why anyone would want anything warmer. Down is absolutely amazing.
Sitka already uses Aerogel in their jackets. It works pretty good.
Not the hero we deserve, but the hero we need. Thanks for the info as always
Thank you, I always thought I’d buy an aerogel jacket one day, mistake avoided.
The arcteryx jacket has some insane technology inside. I have one and its as light as a raincoat while being warmer and more comfortable than any other jacket I've owned, kinda amazing.
Thank you. These tests are great
This is a perfect collab opportunity with Project Farm!
Cool test. I can imagine that one variable is the fit of the jackets. Like a looser-fit might leak warm air.
Thanks and I do appreciate you for making this video!
That's a great result for a technology in its first iterations!
This only shows that synthetics are headed in the right direction.
Technology only gets better from here
Great test! I'm no scientist but that seems really reliable and scientific!
Great work! Todd from Project Farm would be impressed 🙂
You’re awesome!
Your content and videos are so helpful and entertaining.
This had been my experience with my prima loft jacket. It's almost as warm as my down jacket. But because it is thinner and doesn't have the puffy jacket look, I wore it all the time and I end up layering it with my light down jacket when I needed the extra warmth. The two very light and packable jackets ended up being way better than the thick and heavy jackets I owned in the past.
Outstanding! Very informative video. Thank you for sharing.
columbia jackets with the omni heat always work very well for me over all the other down jackets I've tried.
I have the L.L. Bean jacket he has, same color, but just normal polyester insulation. It's freakishly warm and lightweight. I wouldn't wear it in wet conditions, but as a normal winter coat, it's wonderful. It's about as heavy as many windbreakers, but good down to 0F. At warmer temperatures, it doesn't feel hot, either.
This in a softshell outer layer with a light down mid layer would probably be a nice sweet spot for most situations in the midwest.
I have an Oros aerogel jacket and pair of gloves. Not well outdoor hiking and camping gear (they say for skiing) but they are warm. Very warm.
What I especially like is how compactable it is. It can stuff flat into a A4 mailer. I am allergic to down, so I need a synthetic alternative.
I remember seeing this in a Popular Science magazine in 1990 as a option for winter jackets and home insulation.
Thank you for the scientific approach 🖤🤓
As a vegan, I’m happy synthetic options exist even if they’re not as warm. I’ll keep supporting it and hopefully one day it’ll be as good.
Good video, short and informative. Thank you!
Wednesday, February 14th; Interesting video. I have always been a fan of down. Thanks for sharing. Happy Trails! Ross08
Really ingenious test you devised there.
i wouldn't be surprised to see the aerogel hybrid insulation become the new standard in the synthetic game. even if it's not warmer than down, it's great to see improvements in the synthetic space.
Incredibly well done!
An impressive testing procedure. I have used LL Bean primaloft jackets for 5 years and they are my go to jacket when the temperature is above 25. I wear a base layer, regular shirt, polar fleece vest, then my primaloft jacket. If it is windy I might put a windbreaker over the jacket. I have been impressed with the jacket’s warmth and durability. The jacket is too expensive, but I bought them on sale. I find down is often too warm and so this layering system seems to work fine, but if it is below 25 then I go to down.
THANK YOU!
Your testing methods seem VERY fair, and thorough. What a great video!
I have that same Arcteryx jacket. It is insane how warm that thing is and weighs nothing.
You do crazy test haha, loved it, thanks ! 😅
great JOB! Keep on doing the REAL research. Awesome Job!
Great test platform! I have an Oros jacket and I'd love to see it go up against a down jacket. Please make a follow up video if you can 😊