Explaining Marth & Lucina's Marvelous Hitboxes (Smash Ultimate)
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2022
- Hey everyone, today we are taking a look at another character that has been around for a while. And a character that has been cloned more than a few times over the course of the smash games. So because of that we are doing a bit of a double feature, having a look at both Marth and Lucina!
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Fun fact about marths up tilt, the last hitbox will always play the tipper sound effect, no matter if you hit the sour or the tip. I believe this was an oversight, but with how useful that late of a sour is for combos it doesnt feel completely out of place
@@TheRealBatabii ok
That's actually half correct. If you hit the tipper on the last active frame, you hear a normal tipper sound. If you hit a sourspot, it actually plays the same sound effect as Chrom's sword. Maybe it is still an oversight though.
@@Capris9x wow that's even weirder
@@Capris9x Yeah, I've also noticed that (I play most of the FE characters on the roster). It's definitely a bit odd, to say the least.
I've also noticed that Roy sometimes will get the tipper/hilter sound effect during Up-air when the opponent doesn't get hit by the hilter hitbox. There is also the fact that Roy's f-smash sourspot has basically no knockback (it cannot even KO GnW at 120, while even Marth's sourspot f-smash can do so) - but that is a different topic entirely.
as an aside, I've noticed that Chrom's sound effect is really just Roy's hilter/Marth's tipper sound effect played at a lower pitch - while Ike's happens to be the same, albeit at an even lower pitch than Chrom's. From what I can tell, it's to make Ike and Chrom's hits sound much stronger. I guess this could explain the strange oversight - the devs may have accidentally used Chrom's sfx while programming the move due to it being a derivative of Marth's sfx.
You could at least credit pkbeats lol
"The hitboxes are all the same, so that's nice. Saves me a bit of thinking" - Lucina mains
I still find funny how these are the more methodical or elegant sword users, and in their fSmash they completely slam the sword in the ground like they're trying to break it
I think the move is a reference to marths attack animation against the final boss of his original nes game so it makes sense that it would be more reckless and wild then his other attacks considering the final boss is a gigantic dragon 😭
Me when the Marth tipper hitbox actually fucking lands and kills at fucking 40% center stage
Me when Marth misses the tipper a ton of times and has to kill with up throw at 180%
@@jangamecuber Up-smash kills far earlier than that though, as does sour-spot fully charged f-smash (at least on GnW, which KOs at 120).
At least, for me, I tend to use up-smash if I haven't landed a tipper F-smash around 60 - 90% or I haven't gotten a shield break by the time I get the opponent over 100%.
@@icaruswindrune7116 Same. People rely on up throw far too much. You can easily confirm into Up smash with Uair or Nair 1, too. To me, not landing a kill with Marth until you get an up throw is a skill issue on the player's end, not a Marth flaw.
Marve-Lous for both Marth and Lucina is actually genius
Marth's hitbox priority is an inverse from Melee, where the tipper had a higher priority if both hitboxes overlapped
That's only true for dair and uair, for other moves the sourspot has priority. In many moves however, marth's animations give him more range than they do in brawl and forward and the hitboxes sizes in general are bigger in Melee.
Laughs in Roy main
Ok, this is an important thing from the start of the video. Marth's tippers are harder to hit, but not because the hitboxes are worse, but because you can actually move in ultimate. Yeah smash 4 had some nice tools for spacing in perfect pivots but ultimate characters have a lot more tools and access to just running around throwing moves out, while in smash 4 you generally had rely on fox trots, perfect pivots, and dash shield for the ground and how much your character could make use of the air varied drastically, whith many having very few safe and predictable options. All in all, that plus the lost setups made it harder without any need for nerfs
I mean i think it's moreso due to the loss of movement mechanics other games had, Marth was always a big beneficiary of Pivots
Marth’s tippers have never been easy to land consistently, in Melee oftentimes the sour spot is better for comboing so sweet spots only mattered for a kill(which you could easily edgeguard anyways), Brawl his sword was so short and the game was so slow it didn’t truly matter, and in Smash 4 he was incredibly reliant on Jab -> Tipper imagination alongside some movement tech like earlier mentioned
Correct me if I’m wrong, but they’re also harder to hit cause of how the hit box overlap works. With Roy if you hit both the sour and sweet spot the sweet spot will take priority but with Marth the opposite is true. Not sure if that was always a thing or if it’s only in Ultimate
I personally think that what has ruined Marth's relevance in this game is moreso the severe lack of microspacing tools, like perfect pivots, wavedashes, shield dropping, etc. And the hideous amount of hurtbox shifting present in this game. So, the problem with Marth is more related to the game's engine and mechanics (or lack thereof). So this is a problem that buffs aren't really going to fix, because it involves something greater. This is why I don't think Marth will ever be meta relevant (hell, Lucina also became less relevant), because precision and positioning are not greatly rewarded in this game, and with the direction the current meta is heading, it's going to be even worse for Marth.
@@tsynthetic It is something that Marth always had, only uair and dair in melee give priority to the sweetspot, but that was changed when brawl came out. It's necessary for roy's to be the reverse otherwise he'd never hit with his sweetspots.
Ironically, with Marth, you're better off not spacing at the tip, but focusing on using sours to combo into tippers. Or to cause tech chases which have set roll distances (which you can use to more easily land tippers). You should occasionally go for the tip when you need to fish for safe kills. Really good for ledge trapping, mostly.
@Saxon Eyles Tell that to the people who think you're only supposed to space for tippers. Cause it's a common misconception.
The issue is that the reduced damage of these sours spots also makes them less safe on shield. So you want the sweet if you expect to hit shield, and the sour if you expect to hit hurtbox. Sounds to me somewhat impractical in neutral. But I haven't played in a while, so my opinion may be similarly out of shape.
@@justinmullins1112 That's not really correct. Forward air is the same safety even with the sourspot and is safer with the tipper.(and that is your main pressure tool) Back air sour is 1 frame less safe with the sour, 1 frame more safe with the tipper (and if you hit with this one past 30, you get a free tech chase). Down tilt sour is 1 frame less safe, I GUESS, but still safe and with the buff, it's pretty easy to get tipper anyways (use this past 115 or something for a free tech chase and land tipper at 70 for an early tech chase). Up air is -4 with the sour and -3 for the tipper. All things considered, at worst, you are 1 frame less safe, but are still VERY safe, so as long as you just "kinda" space well enough, with the intention to follow up your sour spot when you do get a hit, then you'll be fine.
@@Patrick-bn5rp FINALLY I see someone else mention the sours aren't as bad on shield as people make them out to be. Like, if you're hitting a shield too close and/or - with Marth and get punished, you were very likely gonna get punished as Lucina in that same spot too
@@Patrick-bn5rp You’re right that a lot of people have that misconception and you gave helpful advice, there just isn’t anything ironic about it
I wonder if Ryu and Ken would be covered together or in separate videos, considering how many minor and major differences they have
I personally want to see what sort of jank is going on with Ken's shoryuken hitbox. Both in how it might scoop people up from ridiculously far away and how it sometimes fails to connect at point blank range.
@@equinox-XVI You want jank? Ken's Jab 3 has more range than Ryu's Jab 3 because he took his hitbox directly from Smash 4. And this change has no effect on gameplay because it's impossible to do Jab 3 without connecting with Jab 1
I would imagine they would be separate, because they straight up have multiple moves that are completely different
Explaining Ryu and Ken's Rough and Komplex hitboxes
I've been playing Marth since launch, and even though I felt like giving up on him multiple times, I still find him so much fun to play. Landing tippers with him is so satisfying and rewarding. Sadly, he will never be meta relevant because his problems lie within the game's core and not his frame data/hitboxes. So all I can do as a Marth player is for MkLeo to pick him up and wreck shit up. High on hopium, I know
Let's go. Marth was my main in smash 4 and lucina is my main in ultimate
i love marth and lucina, to play as them but also to play against them feels fair and fun
Still upset they took away the tipper down air spike on all frames just to make him consistent with Lucina (in Smash 4) rather than keeping a unique option that had been present since his Melee.
Those royals sure are flamboyant.
I need to add this small correction: the headshot bonus damage is coded to be applied after the knockback calculations are done, meaning that it doesn't affect the knockback at all if you hit it.
It might not seem like much on paper but that extra bit would increase the knockback drastically were it to be applied. And Marth's fully charged shieldbreaker kills early enough as is.
A note about Dsmash - if you release the move from charging, it is only 3 frames. As such, it is one of their best moves to catch opponents air dodging to the ledge. If you hit say, Chrom or Snake off to a point where you KNOW they have to air dodge, charge that Dsmash near ledge, wait for their air dodge, and release for a frame 3 attack that’s incredibly easy to hit simply due to its speed
I HAD NO IDEA THIS WAS A THING. Thanks! I'm totally abusing this.
It’s actually only 2 since charging is frame 4 and the move comes out frame 6, good knowledge nonetheless
charging in shield or crouch? i never charged with marth before. can i charge while holding ledge?
I always felt like Lucina & Chrom suffered from a similar issue: hit boxes not being adjusted to compensate for their properties.
The scooping/body/arm hit boxes aren't as much of a problem on Marth & Roy thanks to their tipper & sword base hit boxes, respectively. With their hit boxes just being copy-pasted but no sour spots, you now have an arm/body hit box doing as much as the sword. For balancing, those hit boxes should've been changed, if not removed completely.
Hero's body/arm hitboxes do less damage (and as a result, less knockback).
But why would we nerf Chrom who is already significantly worse than Roy?
A thing to point up with up-tilt, I forget the exact patch, but the green/teal hitbox had it's knockback increased dramatically, causing it to kill at obscenely low percents!
I didn’t realise the tipper was so large
It has lower priority than the other hitboxes covering it, so really it gets cropped in most cases
Ooooooo marf and lucheena
Yes!! This is exactly as I requested! My prayers have been answered!
I'm crossing my fingers for robin next. I love them
Honestly, one of the hitbox analysis videos I'd like to see the most would be on one of the space animals. I am biased towards a video on Wolf's Wild hitboxes, as he is my main - but Fox's Fierce hitboxes or Falco's Fancy hitboxes would also be really cool to see
dash can kill and yield on stage gimps for recovering opponents to ledge so has potential. thanks for pointing out shield break headshot hitboxes i did not know that
Let's go another rekzius video the day is good now
I did not know any of the facts about the counter and I thought it used a tipper also I didn’t know there were range differences in neutral b. 🤯
Poggers
Finally! I got to learn why Lucina's down air doesn't spike while Marth's get a 100% chance of spiking!
I was convinced Marth dair was so much better and easier to tipper and spike, and I guess it is true
He said "Lucina has the exact same hitbox in this case," and he didn't say anything about Marth having higher priority. So what are you talking about?!
They're exactly the same, even with Lucina's Down Air only spiking on the tip.
@@hatboi124 Marth's dair in every game feels relatively easy to spike with, it's just nature ig
@@hatboi124 My point was that getting the tipper on this move felt so much easier because it is just the spike hitbox from lucina. It is also basically impossible to get the spike without the tipper, so Marth's is always just a stronger spike
funny how you said at the end there most likely wouldnt be a marth soon, just after this video ignaize beat elegeant and mkleo said he's going to start playing marth on twitter which makes me very happy.
Fun fact, Lucina Dancing Blade 4 Up and 4 Down are actually different knockback levels at the tip (only 4 Down does more KB at tip for her tho). All other Dancing Blades are equal KB with just angle differences barring DB3 Up inner hit which is very rare to get.
nice. hoping for a roy/chrom one soon too.
The king returns!
This can’t possibly be true. Marth’s tipper hit boxes HAVE to be smaller than that. There must be an error here. Marth sucks according to the best Marth in Smash 4, but these tipper hit boxes don’t look too bad
What i find odd is that while the frame data is practically identical, it looks like Marth’s falchion looks or pokes out just a hair shorter than Lucina’s with the same hit boxes on certain attacks. I know it might not make much of a difference in a vacuum but every move in a match certainly adds up. Could lend to why Marth’s tippers feel or look a bit deceptive.
I remember hearing that if the tipper hitbox and sourspot hitbox both hit on same frame, sour spot takes priority. On Roy however if both collide "tipper" takes priority since his sweetspot is at the handle of the sword
They are correct, the reason why marth sucks is beacuse of ultimate engine. Everyone in this game has better movility so it is harder to actually land the tipper
The thing about tippers in this game is that they are harder to land because hurtbox shifting goes crazy in this game. Now this is something that has been in every game, don't get me wrong, but that coupled with the lack of microspacing tools like perfect pivots makes tipper harder to land. Every character in the game has access to a initial dash cancel which allows you to cancel your initial dash into any attack so everyone can easily enter into the overlapping hitboxes of tipper and sourspots, which means the sourspot will land instead.
Also, Marth has one of the longest initial dashes in the game and the fastest walk in the game, which severely hinders his ability to use dashes and walking as a microspacing tool. I believe that is the reason why his tilts were buffed, since ground mobility felt stiff and made tippers not land as often. Walking with Marth, though, is still regarded as his best microspacing tool.
And, lastly, the tipper hitbox of his final Dancing Blade forward is outside of the attack's visual, so to land the tipper you basically need to hit the air, which for someone who isn't used to it might seem like a bit of a coin toss, as you can't visually see where the tipper hitbox is
I run into 2:43 so damn often when I play marth it's infuriating
Also another thing with his hitboxes, a lot of the sword swings you can see he leads the swing with the hilt of the sword and the tipper trails behind, and since the priority of the hitboxes has been switched since 4 it really makes getting closer spaced tippers inconsistent as heck
The height difference is true in smash 4 but seems to no longer apply in ultimate, so disregard this comment .
-It's probably important to note that despite Marth and Lucina having the same hitbox spacing and size in most of their moves, while in-game, Lucina is a bit smaller than Marth meaning that even if two moves look identical and have the same relative range, he has a bit more reach than she does and it's what makes the marth-lucina matchup advantageous for marth.-
That’s not true. In the transition from Sm4sh to Ultimate the sized Lucina up to be the same portions as Marth, so now they are the same height and have have the same range **except** for Counter, where Marth has significantly more range than Lucina due to their different animations.
@@jason_n_black Accurate information, I'll edit my original comment, thank you.
Well with Marth and Lucina done, I can't wait for Roy's and Chroms
I've heard that hurtbox shifting in Ultimate makes tippers in Ultimate harder to hit, especially for big characters like Ridley or Bowser
I think the biggest change Marth received over the years has to be the swapped priority on tippers vs sourspots. I don't remember which game did it, but Marth's tipper definitely used to have higher priority than sourspots and it made it MUCH easier to hit. When Marth was getting buff in Ultimate, I was surprised they decided to move the hitboxes instead of just switching the priority which would have been a much more substancial buff.
Marth tippers always had less priority than the sourspots with the only exceptions being Melee dair and Brawl upsmash, i dont know where the priority switch misconception went from but its false, if that would be the case Marth sourspots would be almost impossible to hit, making moves like fsmash outright broken, you can easily check it booting up any of the previous Smash titles and checking it on training mode
4:23 dawg Snake NEEDS to have a burst option in front of him, his kit would be incomplete without something like that, at least it isn't a broken auto-cancellable aerial that combos into his tilts - oh wait his nair....
Well that's why he was top tier during early ultimate
Well this aged well lol
Most of the issues with hitboxes people complain about are actually issues with ultimate's jank hurtboxes and their shifting/jostle.
YO it's Marf and Loukina!
The problem with Marth is that he's clearly designed to take advantage of having the most range in the game, and keeping your opponents outside theirs effective range with the sword is rewarded. But with more and more swordies with bigger ranges and non-swordies with insane intangibility, it makes it more and more difficult for him to execute his gameplan
Now he is the one who has to get in inside of the opponents range and find a way to perfectly space tipper without getting hit, and it's just very hard against a lot of these characters. Lucina, even if her range isn't the biggest, can just run in I'm bigger ranges characters and hit them with pretty strong moves without having to put herself in an telegraphed space
You should add large for lucina's first letter for basically marth and lucina's marvelous and large hitboxes
Fun fact but if you hit the front of marth's up smash and the other character its facing the other way and its not that close then the up smash will straight up miss because not being active for long enough, that happens to me in sets quite often and its really bothering
The comments of marth being underused and MkLeo tweeting a couple of days ago about using him are funny. Lets see if the Goat can make it work
He made it work in Sm4sh I'm sur ehe can do it again
MkLeo said in his tweet that Marth is not good, but his practice with Marth can potentially transfer over to Lucina.
I do find it sad that Marth is one of the only characters from Leo's arsenal that he tried playing seriously but ended up not working, especially since he was the Marth God of SSB4.
I am from the future and Leo did defeat Riddles' Kazuya and Larry Lur's Falco with Marth. Marth is bacc, baby! And so is the Joker.
I find it weird Rekzius pointed out Sour Up Smash as weak when it has the lowest difference between kill% to itself and Lucina than any other move in their entire kit, and by far.
Sure dash attack might be bad but I do kill with the tipper sometimes
See I knew about Counter but I had to test Shield Breaker. Exact same range. So you just put the GIFs over each other?
Separately, your Lucina GIF for the uncharged was actually the fully charged making Marth's uncharged look like bigger hitboxes (but this doesn't account for the massive range diff you reported, why I said "separately")
So, very start of the video you say Marth’s hitboxes weren’t changed between 4 and Ult. So what… actually changed to where everyone suddenly believes Lucina is significantly better?
It’s a double whammy:
1. Ultimate’s relatively limited spacing options compared to Smash 4 hinder Marth’s ability to space tippers, which isn’t a problem for Lucina since she obviously doesn’t have that mechanic to begin with.
2. Lucina herself received a myriad of buffs in the transition to Ultimate that combine well with the 1v1 damage multiplier and Ultimate’s shield mechanics.
Marth is still perfectly functional and has the potential to be a terrifying character, but Lucina’s consistency takes priority in this case.
They did change a little bit, mostly his Neutral/Forward and Back air
Mostly a bit smaller sizes and z offsets which added up makes a difference
Basically Marth has less range in his core neutral moves in an enviroment which wasn't needed
The sweetspot of his aerials isn't that stronger or safer than Lucina while the sourspot are a lot weaker and less safe
So yeah this is the reason why Marth is a lot worst than Lucina because Lucina is more consistent in Neutral, killing, combos... and Ultimate rewards more aggressive play than distant spacing
@@CokeMilkYT I wouldn't say a miriade of buffs but she got the better deal I guess
Basically yeah all of this is true
Yes, since Lucina's balanced blade is preferable in Ultimate's more aggressive engine and Lucina has a much lower skill ceiling.
@@ameliabaroni2650 Plus they nerfed the knockback on his sourspotted forward smash, a key KO tool.
Plus while both characters received the same jab 1 nerf, Marth got hit by it significantly more since it was key to his consistent tipper set-ups combined with perfect pivoting.
tl:Dr Marth got it very rough this game.
I’m so curious why in almost all(or all) videos there’s always a Shanna from fe6 hidden somewhere
niice
I've NEVER heard about the 'headshot' hitbox on Shield Breaker, what!?!? How long has that been around?
They announced that in the trailer for Marth before the game came out
@@cowcat8124 Wow, that was a really long time ago, so I'm not surprised I forgot. Thanks!
Inkling next plz!
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Marth
Am I crazy!? I always thought Marth was supposed to have more range than Lucina.
Continue the rest of Hero's Hitboxes Plsssss
Lucina has Marth’s grab range?
Can you do bayos hitboxs
Anyone here after the MKLeo/Riddles set
Weird how Jab and Nair are so inconsistent for Marth in Ultimate despite the hitboxes being the same as in Smash 4.
True, I land like only 3 nairs in games even against shields, the first couple of weeks when the game came out I thought the move was programmed wrong.
@@c.w35t87 The fact that the tipper almost never connects with both hits of Jab and Nair is what gets me.
The hitboxes are the same but the animation is different, in smash 4 the animation for the jabs were more vertical and covered a much bigger area for both characters. The outermost hitbox also keeps opponents grounded and pull them towards marth and lucina like most jabs in the game while in smash 4 they sent opponents into the air with a vertical trajectory so they kept their distance and were hit by the tipper of the second jab.
marth's hitboxes have to be one of the worst. his trails go right through people all the time
Please do ken next
7:40 *sad chrom noises*
Lucario please
I still dislike that the random game footage he puts while explaining the move do not highlight the move at ALL
I believe it could be interesting to compare Marth, Lucina, Chrom and maybe Roy. I still thinking about chrom is an easier and stronger Lucina just with Ike's up b.
11:25 oh my goodness WHY!?!
I hate these characters so much
bro 12 seconds after upload
I was first hehe
I'm here to deliver the obligatory;
Marth would be a solid top tier if they programmed his hitboxes properly, as it is right now you miss the tipper even if you hit it perfectly half of the time. (Check out Streetch's matches, jesus.)
roy
:)
Great video!! Glad I got to see a hit box video on my main! Up-Smash is awful! I often hit the scoop hot box only when I use this attack. I did a video about: czcams.com/video/pm38tqpJ5I8/video.html
The tippers are actually still harder to hit in ultimate compared to smash 4 because the sourspot hitbox now takes priority over the sweetspot, effectively decreasing the effective sweetspot area on most of his moves. I believe this was not the case in any other game, at least on most of his moves that have tippers.
I don't think smash 4 had different tipper mechanics. I played Marth back then and the tipper felt about the same. I think you are mistaking it with Melee, which had the tipper take priority over the sourspot.
@@cowcat8124 That's not true in melee as well, only dair and uair have higher priority on the sweetspot in melee.
With all the buffs, and the fact that the hitboxes are the same as in Smash 4, I wonder why people still think Marth's tippers are harder to hit in Ultimate. Like honestly, you'd think it's actually easier and he's better than people think. Maybe it's the overall speed of the game making things harder?
The game being faster than 4 hurts Marth a bunch, yes.
@@chordalharmony It benefits Roy by a lot since he's essentially a brawler with disjoints.
As a former Marth main, turned secondary, then dropped, I will always be pissed about Marth’s Dair. ONE FRAME?! ONE FUCKING FRAME TO SPIKE?! WHAT THE ACTUALLY HELL IS THAT ABOUT, SAKURAI?! PYRA AND IVYSAUR GET AMAZING SPIKES ON THEIR DAIRS, BUT MARTH GETS ONLY ONE SHITTY FRAME?! WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU NEUTER HIS DAIR THAT HEAVILY?! I can’t forgive the smash team for doing this to him
The non spike hitboxes are REALLY good for combos and kill confirms though so tbh I'll take it over having it spike more
And here we have a way to not make a completely different character.
Which is to take another one's moveset and remove the fun part in it. You made a simple character, sure. But also very boring
Yeah marth players need to step up their game so much potential wasted because people want to play the ez mode version