Did you know that your bullets might be moving in your ammo boxes?
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- čas přidán 7. 12. 2020
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I did a quick and easy to test to show how bullets can move while being transported and how some methods are better than others at preventing this from happening.
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#fclassjohn #ammunition #ammo - Sport
I'd be be inclined to attribute that to light neck tension, one of the hazards of running the light tension. I think Eric has the right idea in seating them long and then doing his final seat at the range.
Absolutely. That's what I've done for matches since last years Nationals. Typically you have two options, load with extra neck tension and then you're safer loading to length before a match OR load light tension but load long and push at the match. I know people who do each successfully.
Slight crimp should resolve this problem. Also, temperature fluctuations causes expansion / contraction of bullet therefore it causes them to sink slightly. Not worth loosing sleep over it.
Awesome thank you for taking the time to make this video john...
Glad you enjoyed it and found value in it.
with a compressed powder load they can grow also over time with a light neck tension
Interesting! Thanks for sharing this!
Glad you liked it.
Good test , Thank you # !!!JP
Glad you liked it.
Good point made !
Thank you and glad you enjoyed it.
Awesome test, I can see how the clam shells are better. I'm going to experiment with vacuum sealing ammo, maybe try ammo by itself and placed in padded container or sandwiched between foam within vacuum seal.
Thank you. My goal was just to show people what could happen under my particular circumstances so I'm glad it has you thinking about how to tailer that to your situation.
Running this analysis today!! I’m running 2thiu neck tension on my 6.5 hunting rounds on my precision rifle loads at this time with the 156 Berger load. My precision load I’m running right at a thou on the Berger 153.5 lrth rounds and I will be analyzing these rounds too. Love the experiment!! Love your channel and content!! Much appreciated!!
I'll be anxiously awaiting your results. I appreciate you taking my test for what it was and then making it your own for your purposes.
@@FClassJohn yes I will get back to ya. I was wanting to run analysis today, I still may, but I’m going to re check ballistics again , getting ready for long range doe hunting starting tomorrow morning and fir the next four days. I promise to get back to ya even if I can’t run the analysis until next Monday.
@@wvlongshooter3912 no worries take your time. I’ll be here.
@@FClassJohn I’m back again. I’m a retired chemist of 22 years, i do understand the scientific method processes. Analyzing the bullets growing has been interesting. From what I’m seeing, is after driving with ammo, my cbto’s are all over the place. Some have even shortened in length! Some have grown! Now, I’m seeing a growth or a shortening of a thou or sometimes two. I’m wondering if my measuring tool may be getting affected by temperature swings, possibly, and along with temperature changes in the ammo materials too. I’m not sure at this time. Further testing has to go on, I can’t really conclude any scientific evidence of what is actually happening to the cbto length changes.
I let an ol green mtm box of 223 plinker ammo ride around in a tool box in the bed of my truck for a year, out of the 45 in the box 11 of the bullet dropped completely down into case. Wasn’t really a test, they just got buried after a range trip and forgot about. So travel variance is a thing. Might not matter to some but most reloaders are perfectionists and there is not point in wasting time/components if one doesn’t do their part to minimize changes. Thanks for the video and info man.
That must of been a WTF moment when you, not only found the box, but when you opened it. Sorry but LOL.
Thank you for the kind words and I love your term 'travel variance' and I'll probably steal that from now on.... :)
@@FClassJohn hell ya go for it!
@@charlesbradshaw8673 it sure was a surprise, but it was a good surprise as I had forgot about them. Like getting a semi used box of shell😂
Thanks for the video, what foam are you using for mtm case and where did you get it?
It's actually just foam from my Peterson boxes that I've cut thinner using a jig but you can get the same foam at Joann's or Hobby Lobby. It's just a high density foam.
If you do this test again I would be curious to see what the results would be if you laid the clam pack sideways vs up and down. BTW I love your videos ❤️❤️❤️
Thank you. I've gotten some great ideas of ways that everyone would like me to test again so I may do a more thorough and rigorous test.
Brown Machine llc makes thermoforming tooling, like that clamshell container. If your running that product at your business.
Thanks John. Informative. Do you have a video on the bullet seater? Curious about the internal components of the die you use, adjusting it, etc.
Glad you enjoyed the video. I haven't done one on the die but have it on my list so I'm glad you reminded me. I'll work on doing it soon.
@@FClassJohn Thanks! By the way, I have the Accuracy One depth gauge based on your previous review and love it.
@@wyattlarsen3880 awesome!
I hear my ammo talking in the middle of the night as well.
Conspiring😂
Needed a control group that were just left on the bench
Yeah good point. Forgot about a control group. Next time I do a test like this I'll be sure to include one.
Actually that's a excellent point.
Thx John good effort. When you think of it. If we stack our bullets up right a in a mtm box its a connectic puller in reverse. If you used the clams you could lay them flat, so they possibly wouldn't have the connection effect on ,eight anyway. Just a theory. Open to opinion.
@@anthonykhalil70 Absolutely. There’s been a couple people suggesting that I do another test that included both a control group as well as a horizontally position group so I am going to do some stuff in the future that showcases even more ways that they can transport and what happens for each condition. Thanks for the constructive help.
Try using a standard paper hole puncher and punch out some 1/4" thick pieces of sponge (like you put on top of the bullets) and put them in the bottom of each of the bullet holes.
Thanks! Now I have one more variable to worry about 🤣
Glad I’m doing my job 😂
@@FClassJohn That was an eyeopener!
The cartridges bouncing up and down in the MTM case would be like tapping a cartridge repeatedly on the bench. Hence why the clamshell case had less movement in seating depths, because it’s more pliable.
Is that black insert of the MTM case removable? If so, put a sheet of foam underneath it and reinsert. That, coupled with the foam on top, should reduce considerably the seating changes. Some milling of the underside of the black insert may be required to accommodate the foam and refitting.
A few people have mentioned this so maybe I'll take all the input and do a part 2 test. You have the right idea with taking out all those prongs that hold the ammo up and then the foam would work as you suggested. Thank you!!
How compressed is that load, out of curiosity? I have never loaded anything with neck tension that low so I'm trying to envision all of the additional internal dynamic forces involved here.
Thank you for all the hard work. Very interesting data!
Those load aren't compressed at all. I'd have to measure but there's decent distance between top of powder and bottom of bullet. Oddly enough I did actually do some compressed loads when I first tried this caliber and I can tell you that the compressed load actually pushed my bullets back out with the light neck tension. Obviously I don't use that load... :)
Thanks again John. Interesting test.
You seem a little worried about the validity. You shouldn't be. You packaged em up, drove around, measured them; they moved, it's that simple.
Absolutely proven, 100%.
1/2 thou is very little interference. Don't spose you know the actual seating force by chance?
Regards.........Rotus.
Thank you. I appreciate the kind words and support.
I'm with John thought there will always be someone out there that will say you did this or you didn't do that
have you ever tested using the MTM box in the tip down configuration where you push the bullet into the plastic cutouts (holder turned 90' as per MTM instructions) ?
Not recently but at the time I was doing this video I was shooting .284 and when put nose down they would hit the bottom of the box (or almost touch depending on my seating depth) and I didn't trust that they wouldn't hit.
Would there be a difference in bullet up or down in ammo cases.
John did you check the concentricity of the bullets that were laying horizontal? Just asking if they might have moved also. Thanks!
No I didn’t because for the most part I don’t bother checking concentricity anymore. I know what my process yields so I only check when I’m setting up something new.
I'm assuming since all the ones in the box were .0005 longer that most of that was due to heat, where the box stored the heat and the plastic vented. Anything stored for a long time is at risk for fusing the brass to the copper. I'd feel leaving them long and doing final seating when it comes time to shoot would be better.
Good to know. I wonder how much it helps prevent movement with say .003 neck tension vs the .0005 you are using. Maybe that would be a good test.
If F-Class John and David Medrano hadn't done this test, i would never known this about the neck tension!
This looks like an elaborate search for an excuse.
In my loading of a gas gun with 4 thou neck tension I get 1 thou movement long when chambering. At first I was startled, but I guess its expected without a crimp.
that was a great test, makes me wonder how my hunting ammo or ammo thrown into my eberly stock is effected. does a bullet binder solve this or make the ammo more exposed/susceptible? if you use a . 282 mandrel will that make the ammo more robust? id love to see what happens when you start shooting side by side groups.
Thank you. You are correct, no doubt that more neck tension would mitigate the effects and help prevent the settling.
Nice test. I plink and hunt. Think God I don't shoot competitively. Would be fun tho.
The ole lee factory crimp die will have to solve this for me. I am moving away from Lee sizing and seating dies. I can tell the difference between Lee and RCBS and even better seems to be Redding.
That is interesting... I wonder, if you lay the box on its side, what kinda issues may result, if any? Please note, I am so far away from being able to be this demanding on my self.. but, some day, I look forward to being this picky, as I try to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of my projectiles... Kinda like how I use to squeeze every inch out of drag racing a FORD 2.3 ltr inline 4 cyl turbo engine.. LOL I gotta crawl before I can run..
With just half a thou neck tension, can you move the bullet just pushing on it? If so, could just handling them also make a difference? Like when you pull them up out of the clam shell by lifting the the cartridge by the bullet.
Good comment. They’re tight enough that it’s pretty tough to move by hand but yeah loading that light you have to take all that into consideration.
Is that comparator from Accuracy One Shooting Supplies? I don't see it on your page.
Yeah that’s the accuracy one gauge.
Thanks John, I had no doubt the cbto/coal could change when you said how little neck tension you use. I imagine you don’t or can’t use compressed loads bc the round would be growing on the way to the range? LOL
Where in the load development process of a new set up, whether a new rifle, barrel and/or cartridge, do you settle on a final neck tension decision for F-Class? Or is this the default go-to tension for you and most shooters of approximately bullet diameter minus spring back from mandrel?
I'll try to keep the response short but first thank you for the thoughtful response.
First, no way I can do compressed loads. I've tried it when I first tested this caliber and the bullets pushed out badly in minutes literally.
Second, when it comes to neck tension I'm a firm believer that you have to test and see what works but ultimately most guys I know have a 'go to' tension that they always use and then do their development around it. Most guys I know will run anywhere from .0005" to .006" tension with the majority in the .001" to .003" range. Hope this helps.
Where can I buy these clam cases! Do they make the for bigger calibers, like my 33xc?
I have a link in the description where you can find them. They have a variety of sizes but I’m not sure if any will fit 33xc. You’ll have to look. Thank you.
Where can I get the tool you're using to take the measurements?
Accuracy One Seating Depth Comparator Gauge Review there’s a link in the description. Thank you.
Now we see why people final seat at the match!!!
Exactly. Especially if you run light neck tension.
What’s the measuring instrument? It’s certainly easier and quicker to use than the adapters on a caliper.
It's this one bullettipping.com/products/seating-depth-comparator/
2 things stand out to me from this video. Firstly it’s a shame you had to make it at all because people didn’t believe you. Secondly 1.5 thou isn’t that much of a change as you said but given all the work and expense that goes into getting it right in the first place I sure wouldn’t want it to change. I think from here on I shall be transporting long from here on
@Ran Dan Given that the measuring devices that reloaders use only measure to the 0.001" keeping that accuracy is literally impossible and also pointless in reloading.
@@MMBRM I totally agree but we still chase it the best we can. One thing I've learned during my time reloading is that you can really only consider an indicator accurate to the place holder left of the first value that measure a full 1-10 and lots of people don't realize that (and neither did I until I learned it). Lot's of people have calipers with 4 values but the last one is only 0 or 5 like the Mit's I use but really they're only truly accurate to the hundredth place since the thousandths is the first place that measures 1-10. Even at that we still use them to the fullest because the numbers are there so it's a give and take.
@@FClassJohn I think we're on the same page. I was only referencing the "stick to 0.0002(2 ten thousandths) tolerances" portion of the statement. I have spent countless hours loading ammo as accurately as my measuring devices can show me! Sometimes I wish I didn't have all the toys to do it...it would save me a lot of time! Since if they exist and I can measure it I'm going to try until I go cross eyed.
Interesting test John. Thanks. I have a few questions. Are your measurements 100% repeatable? I'm pretty sure I watched you measure the same bullet from the box twice and get a measurement 0.001" apart(First at 8:21 measured at .754 and then at 11:13 measured .755). Also a 3 foot drop is going to shock load them way more than almost any drive and would skew results. Seems to me that driving them on a padded surface(such as a back seat or carpeted trunk) vs shipping them is going to be vastly different and should be separate tests.
Thank you for the constructive analysis. I think you're right on several fronts and of course I'm not doing this totally scientifically, just anecdotally. I have to work with the indicators I have and while they're good digital ones, they're obviously not perfect and I tried to be as repeatable as I could. What I was really looking for was an overall picture of how the two methods compared so from that front it succeeded but I could obviously be more stringent but dong like you said. I've had lots of great suggestions here that will give me great ideas for a more extensive test that I will work on. And yes that includes separete testing actual shipping of some ammo, driving ammo and maybe finding a way to send some on a plane soon. Thanks again.
@@FClassJohn Thanks for taking the time for a detailed reply. I agree that you can, at the very least, demonstrate a difference between the two options and also make the determination that seating depth movement is something we should think about. From my own experience getting repeatable measurements at that level of accuracy can be difficult on complex objects. As with anything though more data is usually better! Cheers.
What is that length measuring device called, manufactured, sold?
czcams.com/video/yikYkykMCcQ/video.html
my buddy tells me my arbor wilson combo is useless and his forester seating dies are just as good please give me a comeback lol
Good God if they are that fragile wouldn't you think he wouldn't hit the bullets with his hand. Wonder how much they changed with that?
Might be an interesting to the exact same test with the exception of storing the cartridges horizontally instead of vertically. But then again maybe not? 🤷♂️
Either way, great content!
Thank you I appreciate the support and that's an interesting idea that maybe I can flesh out another time.
Storing and transporting them while lying horizontally could introduce a new problem. Maybe it's possible that the bullets will start drooping and then you'd loose concentricity. Maybe.....
Test with a compressed or lightly compressed load to see if it will accentuate the changes..
I actually did that when I was first playing around with then 7ss and it was a pretty compressed load. It definitely caused erratic changes, way more than a non-compressed load.
Us regular reloaders, just use the Lee factory Crimp Die... stops all bullet settling/moving ;-)
Just saying :-)
AFAIK you shoot .284 Win. Is that correct? And which Brass do you use? Am getting a Barrel in that Caliber. Thanks!
Yep I’m shooting 284win and using Lapua now.
thank you John! maybe you might want to try a heavier taper crimp? lol
😂
Put the results in the mtm box with all of the cartridges. Put it in your vehicle, then test the same ones, 500 miles or so from now.
Yeah I might do a long term test. It'd be interesting to show the results.
Where can I order some of those clam shells? Thank you
clamtainer.com/product-category/ammo-buddy/
So does this mean you seat long and then reseat to correct length before the match?
That is correct.
What size round is that. The casings are huge
I believe it is a 7mm Shehane...an upgrade to the .284 Win
7 sherman short...saum improved
It’s a 7ss. The 7 saum and 7 sst have longer shoulders.
And now you know why real ammo is crimped
John will having a tighter neck tension of 2000th of an inch still move around? Very interesting video
Without a doubt the tighter the neck tension the better the ammo will endure during transport.
@@FClassJohn thanks John. I am waiting for my Creedmoor. Here in South Africa it takes a long time to get ones license. Started getting my loading goodies together. Already have a good idea of what and how I am going to load. All on a very inexpensive Lee Classic Turret press.
@@Electroal1y Sounds good and I hope you get it soon so you can start having some fun!
@@FClassJohn earliest expected date is June or July. Gives me time to save to get the best glass I can afford. Hoping to get a Delta Stryker
@@Electroal1y AWESOME!
I’m going to check my rounds later this week. I just drove 1700 miles!
50 rounds that had .002 neck tension measured the same.
50 rounds that had
@@davidmedrano8656 WOW, that was a long distance and it shows that they move when a light neck tension as to the tight neck tension, that is amazing. and if we aren't really watching the neck tension, it could be worse?
How do you sleep at night knowing your bullets are not what they use to be ! 😳
I did watch the entire Video out of interest , now I won’t be able to sleep . 😂
Good one 🤪. On a serious note I ended up shooting them and shot a 199-9 x so they definitely weren’t what they used to be.
@@FClassJohn I always think about the nut behind the gun , you just never know what you have from shot to shot , it’s the biggest verifiable !
@@hotchihuahua1546 Indeed it is.....
What are you going to change or keep it all the same?
I will currently keep doing things the same. I know how the parts work for my shooting and what I'm trying to achieve so I don't mess with it too much. It doesn't mean I won't change, but I won't be doing it immediately.
If you compress the charge, with they grow?
Yes they will.
Would 0.0015 make a difference shooting 1000 yards? Considering that a average cigarette paper is 0.002 inch thick.
It's a variation. As John mentioned some moved, some didn't. On an actual trip, some might move more, might not, who knows? The point is that there is introduced unknown variation.
I would never of know this I seat at 2tho neck tension in my fclass 284 so hope they don’t move much
.002" is a lot tighter than .0005" so the likelihood obviously decreases considerably. I certainly wasn't implying that bullets would move as much under all circumstances, simply that it's a really thing and people should be aware so they can adjust for their particular needs.
@@FClassJohn I load 100 at a time and shoot 25 at each match so 4 match it’s 160mile round trip for each match I interested to see if they move much now
Whats the name of that specific tool? I like how fast
It's the Accuracy One Depth Gauge. Here's my review on it. czcams.com/video/yikYkykMCcQ/video.html
@@FClassJohn thank you so much, ill look it up right now.
I wish we still had the private message option we use to have. I would have rather sent this message to you using that. You tapped your hand on top of the loaded rounds in the MTM box 4 times before you put closed them up for the test. Could that have moved the bullets with that light of a neck tension?
Please don't take this wrong. A little about myself. I am 60 years old and have been reloading for 40 years. Probably 95% for handguns. I have just recently started trying to learn more about loading for long distance rifle. So I have been binge watching you and Eric's videos and learning so much. Thank you for going to the time to teach us the tricks.
@@Uncle_Bucks_Forge No worries, I'm pretty thick skinned and I always appreciate constructive criticism. That's how we learn. As for your comments, I didn't even realize I tapped on it to be honest so I guess you never know but I'd have to guess it was minimal if any. I've had some great comments here on things to do in order to conduct a much better and more well rounded version of this test and I'm going to see what I can do. Glad you enjoy the videos and I appreciate the kind words.
The clam would have done better, even, probably, if it was flat, the way you would likely pack then, instead of vertical?
Yeah I agree. I packed mine both ways for Nationals and it really just came down to how the clam packs fit in each container. One lent itself to vertical and other to horizontal.
Where can I get them?
Here ya go clamtainer.com/product-category/ammo-buddy/
Add Thin foam INSIDE, on the bottom of the MTM case.
Great Info!
Yeah that might work but you'd have to drill/cut out the bottoms because MTM has little plastic prongs that hold the ammo above the bottom so you'd have to remove them.
Let me just say yes they will move !! But not if you factroy crimped them.
Exactly! :-)
hi John thx for getting back to me still an not contact them I have tried and no reply I have called them and email them so could you try and call them to see if they are OK all you may get one for me and I can pay you for it
The test was flawed, you mentioned UPS but failed to steal the ammo!
😂 that’s a good one. And sadly all too true sometimes....
Obviously we cant trust anything he says. Hes left handed!
LOL, but at least I'm in my right mind. :)
@@FClassJohn I dunno man.... eric said the jury is still out on it
@@scarecrow6292 on my brain or my hand? 🤪
If you have to ask then yo know the answer 🤣
Does he realize that the paper he is writing on is most likely .004" thick so a perceived difference of .001" or .0015" is not much at all.
On paper at 3000 feet it is smh.
@@MrT13 as a machinist I can tell you you can measure the same piece of Steel and get that much variance between the measurements it depends how you hold the measuring equipment and what you're measuring.
Maybe it makes a difference maybe not.
I know when I measure powder I use mechanical so I can eyeball it to within a tenth of a tenth grain. When I measure concentricity I also use a dial type so I can watch it and usually get it to stay still or about a quarter of a 001. Seating depth is harder cause it’s somewhat of a non adjustable one shot deal. But within 001 for sure. I weigh bullets out to within a tenth of a tenth also and lot them. Brass to within 1 tenth only. Try and get neck tension to within a half 001 and use .0025 maybe we are just wasting our time.
When I stretch a round to test lands about every 50 rounds. I only go up 002 increments twice so 004 above my most accurate seat depth and col. if I couldn’t measure better then 0015 that would kinda be a waste. That’s how ppl get sub quarter. It happens everyday.
Bro you have to be an engineer in your professional career…as an engineer myself, nobody else can be this meticulous and detail oriented in their craft to the level of being OCD. Even your testing methodology screams engineer or scientist, but I guess that’s what’s required in F class.
Not saying that in the intent to dox or anything haha