How and why I use the Hoover Bullet Trimmer
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- čas přidán 26. 02. 2021
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You can buy these trimmers here bullettipping.com/products/meplat-trimmer/
I learn something new all the time! I had no idea that loading for F-Class was going to be so finicky! But I can see that keeping everything as uniform as possible & taking out as many variables as possible can lead to better scores 👍🏻 thanks for sharing! I’m not set up for trimming & pointing, but I will be soon 👍🏻
Awesome
I find this method of bullets prep can useful! 1990 my father and I was on a elk draw hunt north of meeker colorado, when we arrived at the outfitters lodge we was informed are ammo didn't arrive at the lodge in the mail, so are guide offered us Vietnam era 30-06 175gr non-magnetic that he had modded into hunting ammo by trimming 1/8" off the tip and serrated the jacket with a knife! Worked excellent! Both accurate and reliable!
Hope you and Eric realize how much you are appreciated. So much valued info. Thanks.
That’s very kind of you to say and I’m glad you find value in the videos.
John
Thank you for your reply again, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.
I’ve learned a great deal from your videos and look forward to viewing them.
Thanks again,
Nick Brown
Thank you I appreciate the kind comments.
Very interesting F-Class John . We appreciate you showing us all these precision tools and gadgets that F-Class shooters use . Cheers 🍻
My pleasure!
Thanks for sharing John. I know that to tighten my group, the next step will be in the bullets. Still in the research and learning phase.
Thanks for the information and video. I understand why you and others trim the points better.
Glad it was gelpful
I have the exact tool and do the same but I didnt know about that options on measuring! Awesome thanks!
Glad I was able to show you something new with your tool.
Thank you just the video I was waiting on!!!
Awesome. Glad it helped!
And I thought I was doing to much 😂😂😂 you wouldn't catch me "trimming bullets" F that!
"F Class" haha I had to
Thanks for your info
John,
Thank you for the reply to my question I really appreciate it. However that’s a rabbit hole I don’t think I’m going to go down it’s above my pay grade. The only thing left to do is to weigh the bullets or measure the base to ogive. My question is which one if either would be any advantage.
Thank you again for taking the time to answer my message. I really do look forward to getting your videos. I look for them every day.
Nick Brown
You're certainly welcome. I try to respond when I can to people. As for the processes, trimming is a nice to have but not totally needed at 1000yds compared to pointing. With some bullets like the 180 hybrids it's a huge difference at 100yds but with others like the 190 hybrids or the 183 SMKS it's not needed at all.
Sorry I had to enable the magnifying feature on my phone thanks for showing that little easter egg. The pointer is cool as well I’ll probably be looking into getting one. Great video as per usual
Best iphone Tip so far thanks
Glad you liked it. I use it all the time.
Thanks for the video. I just sorted 800 hornady 140gr 6.5s . I was surprised to find that base to ogive varied 15 thou. Don’t know what I’m going to do with case capacity. But I’m still learning
They look fancy. especially in that red colored, anodized aluminium. :D
Thank you John :)
My pleasure.
Before I saw this video I'd thought this was necessary.Kusr didn't know how to do it.Thanks
Thank you
Hey John, thanks for another great informative video. I am trying to get caught back up on your videos as i have been unavailable for the past couple weeks. So with the trimming end of your process i cant help but wonder how much bullet weight changes before and after trimming and if its a consistent weight from trim to trim on each bullet? I have never looked into this process so I am flat uninformed on this subject. If it does make a difference how do you incorporate it into you process.
"Pure Passion for Perfection"
I still have some fragmenting old corbon bullets with epoxy sealed tips that will not feed in any stepped chamber barrel and after 10 years I finally have two guns to feed it: CCP and PAK9. Even PAK 9 is “tight”. If I cut the tip short and repoint it they are fine. OAL isn’t a thing anymore usually but there’s still a place for it.
Thanks for video John! Could You please make one for pointing bullets as well?
Yeah I can do another one using the Zero Press. I have one already for pointing using a Dillon if you look at my past videos.
I sort however many I have of the same lot. I'll separate them into 1-2 thou overall length groups. Then I point them. Then I shoot. Can't get myself to trim them.
When you put the bullets into the cutter body for measuring, what stopped them from going all the way through? Does it stop on the Ogive?…
I may give you crap on some of the things you use, cough cough, $600 primer seater. But this I feel is necessary. We spend so much time on case prep but forget about the most important piece, the projectile. Thanks for the video!
Thank you for sharing this very clear video.
I'm stuck with one (i hope not a stupid)question.....are you doing this with the already very expensive bergers?
Or is this a way to improve less expensive ones.
Please forgive my ignorance...I'm new to this...
Warm greetings from the Netherlands.
I've been trying some tests with bullet trimming few years ago. Even if the meplats were more consistent it gave slightly larger groups with pointed bullets vs trimmed. I suspect the "tuning" of my load has shifted a little bit because of the weight change due to the material removed (the load development was made with normal bullets). I also had to remove the tiny burrs left on the bullet tips by this operation. Maybe I should test it another time
Yeah you'll definitely see a POI shift. Trimming/Pointing is it's own little tuning process as (like you said) you figure out how much to trim, and how much to point. But once you have that set, you can really dial in your tuning on the load for sure.
@@FClassJohn if you trim & point all your bullets prior to load development it would seem that would save the POI shift as well as maybe having to repeat the load development? So I’m just starting out & just ordered the equipment to sort,trim & point my bullets, I haven’t started load development yet, waiting on rings & rail to show up to level & mount my scope. I bought some Berger 109 gn. Hybrids that match my twist rate but waiting on backorder! Seems to be the norm with components right now?
@@arronhamilton8091 I know it doesn't make sense but for me and many others it's just not worth the time and effort to trim and point for the 90% of shooting I do at load development. It doesn't make a difference and then I just trim and point for my final testing at longer range.
Question; which bullet do you use to know your overall length for trimming after you’ve sorted?
How do you know that the bearing surface sorting has the OAL tied directly to the disparity in bearing surface?
The trimmer should take care of that, right?
Hi John ! this is a great video . I have 300 200.20x bullets trimmed , however I am really nervous about tipping them . I heard ,it is easy to overdo it and ruin the taper of the bullet . Can you do a bullet tipping video please ?
I did one last year czcams.com/video/eVRI590RkF0/video.html and I also did an in depth pointing video over on my Patreon account yesterday.
@@FClassJohn thank you kindly !
I understand the concept of trimming and pointing,but i thought the point would be a bit sharper....more finer point. Or does it matter?
I have often wondered if that little bit of unevenness at the tip of a match bullet cause erratic flight. for me, only having a 100 yard range, I can't imagine it would make any difference. but at 1,000 yards, ??? so I have to ask. is the reason you point, so you can get a little bit less drag for shooting at 1,000 yards? or does pointing help the bullet cut through the wind?
Hi John do you recommend trimming before pointing
You should lub the shaft or it will wear quickly
Do you have to bullet point after trimming or can you just trim a little to get better groups for smaller calibers?
John,
I have been watching you and Erik now for quite a while. You both have taught me a lot about precision reloading! I have a question about how you sort your bullets. Watching the video I got the impression that as long as you have half a thousand variation you are good with that. I recently sorted every bullet previously weighed and then arranged them by each bullets base to ogive measurement. I now have 50 rounds aligned in 5 shot groups and each group is either the exact measurement or are within half a thousand of each other. Should I expect each 5 shot group to have same POI if all rounds are same brass, powder weight, and primer? Or am I wasting time? Thanks and I look forward to seeing your videos.
my guess, considering all the other variables and tolerance stacking, only way to know is to put some down range and find out. I look forward to the reply though.......
thank you for this and all of your videos, my question if I may is when shooting a match/relay are all of those rounds from the same "bucket" ( say +.001) then another match/relay could be from (say -.002) ? I hope my question isn't confusing. E
I’m a perfect world yes, that’s exactly right.
John, thanks, as always. You don't say this (or maybe I missed it...), but even though you trim all the bullets to the same length, you keep them and shoot them in the "cup group" into which they initially were placed, correct? Otherwise, sorting them would not make a difference, would it? In other words, after trimming and pointing, you don't just dump all the bullets into the same bucket and go from there, right?
Correct. I trim them all using the same setting on the tool but each sorted batch goes back into it's respective tube so that they're still together.
Wouldn’t you go off the shortest bullet and trim to that? Great video
👍
Have you done testing before and after? Curious if your group size shrunk after trimming and pointing, or POI changed.
Yeah it absolutely makes a difference. I'll do some videos soon showing the differences.
@@FClassJohn That would be great John. I handload for hunting purposes but would like to try out Berger match bullets in my rifles to see what the rifles can really do with a proper match grade bullet.
John,
If you trim the meplats do you have to point them also ??
I've seen it done where someone only trims but it's not advisable. You really want to point after trimming to close up the me plat again. I've done testing on this topic and trust me, trim only is ALWAYS the worst of the testing.
OK. what deviation do you tolerate? do you guarantee a measure with a caliper to a tenth of a millimeter? Even if it is digital and shows you three digits behind the decimal point! you clamp the caliper from the side with a screw. That means he is canted. what do you think, how accurate is the measure that you read? But the anodized red still looks great! ;)
Good digital calipers precision is around 0.02. You can also use it to make comparative measurments to get consistent results (keeping a bullet as a gage to zero your calipers on it)
question for you, I have a Mauser model k98 and have shot various ww2 vintage rounds as well as more modern Remington core lock rounds and they all easily fit into the box mag well. I recently bought 80 rounds of 'FOM" 8.57mm-7.92 mm produced in Portugal 2008 production years. I measured the Remington rounds and some old ww2 era rounds overall length of case and projectiles seated from factory and I find that these 80 rounds I purchased are all 2 mm longer than my other rounds. Can I trim or grind down the tips so that they will properly fit in mag well? I hope didn't blow 140 bucks on junk. your feedback would be appreciated
I couldn't say for sure. Here's what I can tell you. When I trim I'm only removing .001"-.002" at the most whereas you're asking about 2mm with is about .078". That's a massive difference in what's coming of and could have a significant impact on the accuracy and reliability of the ammo.
Hi John. I want to buy a rangefinder, which one would you recommend?
In all fairness I don't have a lot of experience using them. I currently have a Sig Sauer for my NRL22 use but that only because it's the only unit in the price range I wanted that has ballistic solutions in it that can be programmed. I have played with Leupold, Zeiss and Sig in the past but I can't tell you why one or the other is really that much better. Sorry
John - How is the Hoover trimmer in terms of copper waste? I use the MCR trimmer - its great and love the chamfer feature but the work flow is slow, especially with a drill because I have to clean out the chamber way to often. Also is chamfering necessary if you point? It does make the inside of the meplat very uniform - especially with bullets with large meplats (basically everything but Berger)
Copper waste management is super easy on the Hoover. It all falls straight down onto your work surface and I’ve never really had to clean off the trimmer blade. I’ve seen the MCR and know people who use it but I’ve never tried one so I can speak to the chamfer aspect but people I know who use it seem to feel good about it but they say the same thing about how long it takes.
@@FClassJohn Thank you. I have an email out to Dianne for one. They really make amazing stuff. Their gauges were a game changer for me. Still waiting on their concentricity gauge to be available. Thanks again.
Where are the pictures that you reference in your video
Do you think you will ever try a PRS match?
I shot one several years ago. It was ok and I get the attraction, but it's an entirely different set of gear and skills and a totally different crowd plus there's hardly any PRS matches in the Northwest. It's emotionally taxing enough to shoot one discipline at a high level and I don't want my F-Class shooting to suffer right now.
Will this work with already loaded rounds?
Technically the trimmer will, but it'd be useless to do so because you need to point after trimming and there's no way to point a loaded round.
That is great. Does it make the weight the consistent?
Honestly don’t know. Never bothered to check since it didn’t matter to me. I’ll take a look and see.
Do you need to tip the bullets if you are shooting less than 400 yards?
I don't personally think it really matters until you get out past 600yds
The trimmer you are using has the slot and tension set screw for the calipers but the one on the web sight is not showing that... Is yours specially made ? Or.?
No that's normal. You have to click on the tab that says 'measuring...' bullettipping.com/products/meplat-trimmer/measuring-bullet-bearing-surface-length/
You mentioned that you didn't care for190gr pills. Is the extra recoil negatively affecting accuracy?
From what I’ve read the slight bc gain wasn’t worth the loss in velocity.
I just wasn't happy with how they flew. You can speed them way down around 2730 and that's where they're happiest. You're offsetting speed for BC at that point but errant flyers just left me without confidence. It's weird. They're great looking bullets and maybe someone with a magnum will figure them out and unlock the code but it wasn't worth the time and effort especially with a straight 284.
John are you tipping as well? And if you are, is it before trimming or after?
I always point after trimming.
@@FClassJohn Thanks John. Thats what I suspected!
John if you were shooting at 400 yards and under would you go thru all this or would it be a modification to these steps in some way? I'm primarily a hunter but wanted to shoot some Berger/Sierra match bullets thru my hunting rifles soon to see what the rifles can actually do and help me set expectations for my hunting loads from there. With various hunting bullets, I'm struggling to consistently get one MOA at 200 yds and my groups definitely open up beyond one MOA at 300 yards, with 3 different rifles. Probably the shooter of course but I do feel that I have a good set up for benchrest shooting and my handloading. Learning a ton from you, Eric and Handloader magazine and greatly appreciate all you do to put this content out there. Thanks a bunch.
Honestly no. Under 600yds I doubt you’d see much difference going through all these steps.
@@FClassJohn Thank you for the reply. Would you recommend I sort my hunting bullets in any fashion for range practice at 400 yards and under? I am primarily shooting the Barnes LRX & TTSX, Hornady GMX, Nosler Accubonds and Sierra Gamekings fyi.
@@willfalkner4936 I’m not familiar with quality level on most of those bullets but if it was Berger I wouldn’t bother sorting in any fashion for anything under 400yd.
@@FClassJohn Ah very good. You answered a question I have had for years. I have been sorting my bullets by weight and put them into bins like you do based on length but thought maybe I should sort them by length (measured to the ogive) instead or not at all. Thank you very much.
@@FClassJohn I know I'm "late" to this video but I shoot a lot of short range (100-200 yards/meters) and just this year will be shooting some 600 yard matches, most shooting will be
What about pointing only without trimming ?
Yeah plenty of guys do that as well and so do I. The only thing I won't do is trim only.
thank you.
I don't understand what is the point of sorting bullets if you then trim them all with the same cutter config?
You are correct. In a perfect world you want to sort and then adjust the cutter accordingly as well as the pointing die. Sometimes it's just not possible do you do your best.
@@FClassJohn Fair enough. Thanks!
I’m confused why you sorted base to ogive and then suggested once trimmed to the same base to tip length, the bullets could used the same. This doesn’t add up. Base to ogive is the only true sort method no?
Since the time of making this video and after testing, I now don't worry about BTO at all and only sort by OAL and then trim or point accordingly. I know there's plenty of people sorting BTO and if that works for them that's great and I know people who do and that's cool. But for me now, sorting OAL helps ensure that trimming and pointing is more consistent.
@@FClassJohn thanks John. I appreciate your response. I agree that as long as you have consistent loading when done, the only thing that matters is being consistent on your ogive to tip length. Such interesting things come up in reloading; should be simple but we all know it’s far from simple at the long ranges. Like anything I guess, the difference between good and excellent if often difficult to even measure and has many small details generally not considered relevant until added up. Good work
Have you seen Erik Cortinas giraud bullet trimmer set up? I’m pretty sure you have a giraud. Surprised you didn’t do the same as him
I used to have that setup and I just didn't like it. I know he gets it to work just fine but as much as I love my Giraud, trimming bullets on it just wasn't for me.
@@FClassJohn I’d love to hear why you prefer the Hoover. I wish I’d have known about the giraud before I bought my Frankford prep centre. It works great but one operation would be better than 3
What I found with my Giraud (which is great for trimming brass...) is the following: the bullet trimmer bit on the Giraud is basically a four flute end mill. All fluted end mills necessarily have a small hole in the middle. When pointing a bullet centered up on the end mill - as it must be with the Giraud - you end up with a little nub on the end of the bullet because of that center hole on the end mill. I tried 8 ways to Sunday to remove that nub uniformly, and ended up just ruining bullets. So now I use a Hoover. I think a Giraud with a single flute cutter might work as well as the Hoover.
@@renetatro547 Center cutting end mills are a thing. Maybe you guys should be pressuring Giraud to use such a cutter in their bullet trimming set up, or maybe you can swap the cutter for a center cutting end mill. I'm not familiar with the set up.
@@renetatro547 yes you're dead on. In fact I've seen some guys modify the Giraud to hold the hoover tool and it's pretty amazing.
Surely bullets as expensive as Berger should offer perfect consistency?
Did you watch the video? There was variations over .004” in the few he sorted
They're really good (and honestly the best out of the box in my opinion no matter what other companies tought for the BCs) but stuff happens in the manufacturing process so I sort. Is it totally necessary, NOPE. If I was pulling them straight from the box and shooting them (which gets me 98% of where I want to be) then I wouldn't bother sorting or measuring in any way because those variances don't mean enough to cause a problem. But when it comes to trimming and pointing then taking the extra steps are needed. But I'm talking about the difference in shooting a 1/2MOA vertical (which I can do with out of the box bullets) versus shooting a 1/4MOA vertical when trimmed and pointed. That level of accuracy what it takes to win on regional and national levels.
I won't buy it unless somebody proves it makes a significant difference on paper. Can you perform a test of a group size at 300yds of let's say 20 rounds Berger Hybrids trimmed vs untrimmed?if not @FclassJohn, maybe @Bryan Zolnikov can?
It isn't worth doing and won't show up making a difference at 600yds or less and even at that it's not for everyone. I only do it for my 1000yd rounds. I've done videos in the past showing it at 1000yds. But for sure it's a process that can do more harm than good if you're not careful. I always tell people don't bother trimming unless you've got everything else dialed in and it takes practice and time to get comfortable trimming.
@@FClassJohn You are perfectly right. I am lucky I shoot only up to 600yds. :)/+.
I could buy 4 of these for the price of 1 Tubb Nosering cutter lol
Show the end so we can see what it does
Glad I dont have to do this for my hunting ammo.
Does anyone remember pencil sharpeners .
Yeah I always think the same thing. 😂
Just sharpen a bunch of different colored ones yesterday
How does one get sponsored by big brands 🙃 because i need a sponsor.... That's if they give me free stuf
It's pretty rare I get anything for free although it does happen on occasion, but I'm certainly not sponsored by anyone. If you want to get sponsored, shoot and win like Cortina does, that's how you do it. I pay for almost everything you see, but sometimes I get a discount or a random item for free but I don't really sweat it too much. I like making the videos and don't count on free stuff to do them. In today's economy, the EVERYTHING FOR FREE model doesn't happen like it did a few years ago. There's too much noise on YT anymore for it to be as effective as it was unless you're a top level channel.
@@FClassJohn i see, at this stage (as per usual) i work for what i get because im at university - ill probably settle when i have a job after my degree
There's an easier way...buy Hornady A-tips.
Different strokes for different folks. I’ve been there with the A-tips, didn’t like them. Glad they’re working for you. I have some friends who like them too.
A pencil sharpener for bullets 🤔
Exactly. It's hard to use it and not see the correlation.
Positive name recognition takes one second. Negative recognition is forever...Multiple ad interruptions, so far...advertisements louder than video...I will not support any advertiser whose ads do not have an option to 'opt out' immediately. I encourage all other readers to re-post this statement to start pushing back these interruptions...For a while I listed by name the companies who sponsored these ad's, but now the 'system' will not allow listing of the companies!
target bullets🤦♀️
Please be careful with your sorting process. It’s not how I would of done it. You choose a bullet at random, then you use that as your ‘mean’ or zero as you call it. You have no idea if that’s the true mean or close to mean. You have no idea of the standard deviation. If the standard deviation is low then your process will probably work as you have enough buckets to cover the range of values. But if your standard deviation is high then this is not going to yield a good result. Example: if the first bullet you choose is the farthest from the true mean, every bullet you choose afterwards is going to the waste bucket. So if this happens you have to declare your zero bullet bad and start over. Summed up if your standard deviation is low your good, if it’s high then your wasting time. Try this, sample 10 bullets from your batch and determine a better stating mean, or as you say your zero bullet. This should help you. Of course if your standard deviation is high you should find a new supplier of bullets.
One would think for 75 cents a bullet they would be made properly