Load Development Test Made Easy!
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- čas přidán 4. 01. 2021
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Outlining my process for determine the seating depth on my loads from start to finish.
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#fclassjohn #reloading #seatingdepth - Sport
And to think you were a land chaser when I met you. 😂
That load is gonna kick some butt John! Good job.
One small edit to my method. I don’t wait until accuracy falls off to move. I often test 0.003” and 0.006” forward of my current seating depth to see if my node has moved forward. If it has, I change seating depth. Goal is to never fall out of the node.
Thanks Erik and I always appreciate the help and constructive criticism, it’s how I (we) get better.
You and Eric have the most useful and informative videos for rifle accuracy and precision by a huge margin. Thanks
Thank you, I appreciate that.
I like that what they say makes sense.
+1 to that bro you and Eric have been my guide for getting into precision reloading
Yeah...these guys have improved my regular hunting loads exponentially. I'm not a competitive shooter, just like good ammo tuned to my weapon system. So watching these vids have markedly improved my loads and I even wanna take down some of the ammo I have loaded already and start over!
The info you put out is straight up class room material!! Great info!
Thank you and glad it helps.
Between you and Eric C I learn something new every video! Thank you.
Glad it helps!
Great vid and it truly inspires me to get deeper into reloading for rifle. I don't quite understand all the technical terms but through your video I can stop, look them up and thus learn a great deal. Thank you from a true newbie.
Great video John, super consistent velocity spreads with groups to match the results excellent work ...nice..👍👍
Thank you.
I never comment but this was a great video, really appreciate the explanation about how you bracketed the jump and why you chose the closest.
Thank you. I’m appreciate the kind words.
Thanks so much for sharing. It‘s a great pleasure watching you work. There is a lot to learn from your procedures and the way you draw conclusions for a novice like me! Amazing insight!
Thank you and glad it helps!
Greetings from Germany and a happy and a healthy new year John
I started longrange half a year ago. The videos from you and Erik are so informative. I have learned so much from you and at the same time avoided many mistakes.
I started with .308 Blaser Tactical. Now I'm venturing into 300 WinMag. My wife surprised me at Christmas with a SAKO TRG 42. I now have work ahead of me.
Sharing your experience, your posts will make the road much shorter.
I learn from the best!!!
Many many thanks.
Kevin
Thank you and I really appreciate the kind words.
I have heard this many times, but it just never fully made sense. I now am confident that I can make this work for me, Thanks.
Thank you . You always make great videos!!!
Thank you for the kind words.
So well explained, thank you Sir!
Awesome video enjoyed every second of it, thanks for all the advice and thanks for all the information. Priceless .🇺🇸
Enjoyed the video! You did a really good job explaining!
Very thorough video and explanation, nice job John. Two quick comments: 1) The slightly lower velocity on day two may be due to temperature... 2) I will usually run two or three 3-shot groups for charge and seating dial in tests just to rule out human error (which never happens right?) or any component or load anomalies.
I love your teaching explanations!
Thank you
This is a wonderful video - understandable and actual data. Thank you.
Thank you
Hello, congratulations on your great result. Thank you for the good lesson and best regards from Poland
Thank you and I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Enjoying the show and can't wait for the tuner show.
Good information
Thank you and I'm working it on it now. Waiting to shoot a final 600yd target on Tuesday and then I'll post it.
Wery informative video. Amazing es numbers. Thanks for sharing great professional tips.
My pleasure and glad it helps.
The velocity consistency is incredible.
Perfect explanation!!
Very informative. Great job.
Thank you
Great stuff! Thank you.
Thank you.
You explain everything in simple turns. Everyone’s brains work a little bit different. Excellent stuff! You are going to cost me a lot of money!!
Thank you for the kind words and I'm glad my videos help you.
Happy Thanksgiving John and my wife is rolling her eyes at the sound of hearing your 30-shot segment coming out of my phone speaker as I watch this clip at the Thankgiving table. She's great because she knows I'll never change and she didn't kick me out yet🙄🤣. Holy Moses, those ES numbers are not what I get! I am like a sponge to this channel though and thanks for the videos from which we all learn and benefit👍
Thank you for the kind words Jeff and Happy Thanksgiving
Thank you.
Looks great to me. Thanks for the info.
Glad it was helpful
Great video John and a fantastic example of the accuracy required to perform at the top level of the sport. 1/3 to 1/4 moa elevation,, consistently. It's not bragging, it's necessary. At the 2017 WCs with with over 3500 points on the card the difference between winners and 1st losers was a whopping 5 points, 0.14%
In FTR it was 3400 vs 3394, 6 points, all credit to Bryan for waiting.
EVERY SINGLE POINT COUNTS.
Thank you and I appreciate what you said. It’s absolutely true. I shot a match last year where I shot a clean score of 600-34X and still wound up in 4th place. It’s a crazy discipline in that regard.
Dang those ES and SD would be awesome in a 5 round group. 30 rounds that's some serious consistency and skills. Nice job.
Thank you.
Amen!
Exact...ly, pardon the pun.
Quick stats note: While you would expect ES to increase with an increase in sample size, that relationship is not linear, it's logarithmic. In other words, diminishing returns as you increase sample size. Regarding SD, you would actually expect SD, all things being equal, to become smaller as sample size increases. As your sample size increases, the distribution of scores aggregates more tightly around the mean.
All of this, of course, is assuming a normal distribution. Given the dynamics of load data, we can safely assume a normal distribution of velocities.
I'm a statistician and I'm thinking of uploading a "Stats Class for Shooters" course. Polling for interest... does that sound like something you would watch? Please respond either way.
Sounds Well above my little brain but I'm definitely game to learn more on the topic
Geeking out here .... good content
Great video, thanks!
Thank you
Great job explaining
Glad it helped.
Very well done, awesome numbers, this is how accuracy should be chased. Extremely informative and helpful for us reloaders/hunters who want the best group to take accurate/ethical shots. Thanks for sharing, God bless
Thank you.
Thanks for this, really good info but more so thanks to you and eric. I am a shooting coach and a prs competitor and i love the shooting sports for the exact reason you do the videos. Simply put no secrets, everyone helps you get better. Kind of a heres how i do it now with all things being equal, now try and outshoot me one the line 😂
Exactly. I’ve been really fortunate to shoot with some really good people who have the same mentality and I think it’s like a lot of things in life. I would rather train a lot of people to be better than me then do my hardest to keep everybody beneath me. My biggest rewards are when somebody that I’ve helped out shoots me.
Great video!
Thank you.
Great video. Thank You🇸🇪
Glad it helped.
Great no-nonsense method. Also cool to see how seating depth had minimal to no effect on velocity and SD.
Thank you and you’re correct, seating depth has virtually zero if any effect on speed. It won’t unless you shoot some that jump and some that jam. Then you’ll see a slight variance in most cases.
Great explanation!!
Thank you.
I am wowed by your velocity numbers! Wow! I've never attained that kind of consistency. I will tho. 👍 Great video, again. 🙂
Es unbelievable 👍👍
Thank you for the very informative video. I might be blind, but I didn't see what type of powder you were using. Cheers
Hello F-Class John, I've watched your videos and i really looked at the meplat trimming and the setting the tip of the bullets, I have the tools you use Hoover , I shoot a 6.5x47 Lapua 24in barrel, with a Big Horn action, I use the Berger 140's Hybrid Match, I trimmed a couple of meplat and sized the tips, but the tips were Kinda ragged, I trimmed some more and looked at at the trimmed bullets, the nose was still ragged, the noses of the round from the box are really nice, no jagged edges, so, I just set them in my die and very gently sized the tips, they are perfect, no bulges or donuts, have you ever done this, and did you like the results? Thanks, Elmo.
Nice clean score can’t ask for more
Thank you
Amazing video, this is gold to a noob. Thank you
My pleasure. I’m glad it helps.
Excellent video
Thank you
Excellent!!
Thank you.
That SD is amazing!
Thank you.
Always fun watching vids like yours and Erik's but us gas gun PRS guys live in a totally different world when it comes to handloading. Magazine length is real. lol I can get single digit sd's and low teen es but there is no starting that close to the lands and grooves. (At least with a manufactured barrel from say aero precision) It's all good though. That's just a thing you accept when you decide to take the gas gun path.
Do you have a video on your powder test or do you just pick a charge, go up incrementally and look for a node, similar to this? Thanks!
My brother and I are just getting into reloading, and your channel seems like a great resource! Thanks!
BTW- I’m 99% certain we’re members of the same range. Hope to see you around!
Thank you for the kind words and hope to see you around.
@@FClassJohn Question: Where is the range you are shooting at located. Address Please.... Thank you
Great information, I was going to ask about the remote trigger but saw the info in another comment. Thanks for all the great content, I am learning a lot! Between you and Erik, I am dialing in some good loads. Would like to hear your opinion on neck turning.
jklprecision.com/product/labradar-trigger/
Jam Secant and jump Tangent, 20 thou off great place to start for jump, works just about every time
Assuming you have a good idea of where tuner will be set, do you crank tuner all the way in to do the jump test, or keep it close to last known good setting?
I eat this data up!!!!! I ran this same analysis yesterday, actually I’ve been running it for the past three days. I appreciate what you are doing !! Still scratching my head on the cbto’s changing on the driven loaded ammo, I think there are measuring tool and environmental issues changing my cbto’s slightly.
Thank you and glad you enjoy the material.
@@FClassJohn Erik cirtinia was my first patreon and I’ll be one of yours as well if you go that route.
@@wvlongshooter3912 thank you. I’m working towards that.
Sick ES!
Mr. John, Starting off with "combustion/powder" testing, where are you seating the bullet? .009" ? Then for "seating depth" testing, begin .009" off as in this video? Just trying to figure the seating depth Starting point when performing the powder testing. Thank you sir.
interesting. thanks
Absolutely love the fact that he's a Lefty shooting Righty..
Does seating depth still make a difference if you are shooting something like an AR where maybe it’s not possible to get the bullet close to the lands? Say for example your mag length is 2.26 and the bullet doesn’t touch the lands until you have a 2.35 OAL.
Do you Always shoot that slow. Haha. Great video my man. Thanks
Be careful of getting too close to the lands if you are going for velocity closer to lands equals higher pressure. Look at Roy Weatherby’s data, he loaded max powder and had the bullets .02 to .03 off the lands in order to reduce pressures, new bullet design negate seating depth issues. How close are your loads to max powder?
What powder are you using and is this in a straight 284 we use rs60 in most are 284 or shehanes over here in the uk 51.7/52 g 2850
Back in the waggon wheel days like 40-50 years ago the general consensus was to seat the projectile until it just touched the lands so I guess there is no bullet jump. The only downside is if you are using a high power there is no margin for error and pressure can escalate quite rapidly. I know that one of the reasons Sako idiot-proof their firearms is by machining the lands deeper in the barrel so magazine length does not allow you to do this.
Great video! One thing I found the hard way was not to trust the micrometer on the seating die because it measures from the point of the bullet and different lots have variances from point to ogive. But, I see you use both so all good.
Thank you
Awesome video always look forward to watching and learning, keep them coming. Have have you thought about doing some prs?
Thank you. I’ve shot PRS once but didn’t have the best setup for it. Maybe someday I’ll go back and give it another run.
Love the videos. You do a great job explaining all the different techniques. What is the purpose for de-priming first before you resize the brass?
@John Beige I gwt that part but why not resize and de-prime at the same time then clean the PP. I was just wondering because I see a lot of guys deprime before they reaize. just trying to see if there is a reason or just personal preference. Thank you John.
How far away from the lands from the ogive do you seat the bullet when doing the powder charge testing?
Thanks John! Have you filmed a video all about "Node"?
What die and case you using and how you do fing the rest over a seb neon
Finished load development and the seating test.
Don't own an EC Tuner but do have a Harrell's to try. Hope you post your Tuner video soon so I can try to get my .346 groups a little tighter in my 7mm08.
I'll try to get one done this week but here's my last video on the tuner. czcams.com/video/7kWNe5tOBek/video.html
@@FClassJohn Thanks F-C J, that gives me a place to start. The Harrel moves up the barrel instead of adding weight forward but the concept should still apply. Will know more on Friday.
Always looking forward to your next video.
How do you determine what node to load
To and how do you find the where the node
It would be interesting to repeat this exact test and compare
With a rapidly as you’re firing, wouldn’t the hot barrel have more of an impact than your load development?
Hi John, what powder are you using and your 2.50 starting what are you measuring to?
Are you going to post a video of the tuner test? Would be interesting in seeing the next step. Thanks for sharing!
Here ya go. czcams.com/video/7kWNe5tOBek/video.html
Jesus those are some consistent velocities !
Thank you.
Gotta love a 3 holer.
Awesome
I always come away from one of your videos with useful knowledge, thank you.
I have two questions for you. First where can I acquire the targets you are using, and second, you set your LabRadar back further from the barrel, and at a greater distance to the side of the barrel than LabRadar covers in their instructions. Please explain. Thanks for your time.
Here's the targets. www.autotrickler.com/uploads/6/3/4/4/63444023/load_development_target.pdf
As for the Labradar, I use a remote trigger so it doesn't matter where I put the unit.
It’s going rise up as the velocity increases it’s flattening the trajectory curve
Was there a powder test vid? I searched but didn’t see it.
What seating depth did you use to find the powder node?
Do you have also the powder charge test video?
She is right on what the people want
Very good info and an outstanding run (and X count) on your match. I couldn't help but notice you have your rifle set up to eject to the left...do many set their rifles up like that?
I've noticed that on several of these custom bench rest rifles. I assume it's for ease of loading since they are single shot but I don't have a clue tbh
Once again, great video John, but if I may and I don't know if you have a video on this matter but can you make a video on how you get to the powder charge node that you choose?
I usually go in .5 grain increment ladder until pressure is found, but I also shoot that at 300-650 for my precision shooting I do and look for the bullets that land closest with the closest velocity reading.
Almost speechless, the information you presented and the way you presented it is exceptional. I have been doing similar development with powder charges for a few years, but never thought to do it with jump (and I have no idea why). The idea of staying a the front of the bracket makes total sense. I do have one question. Your sweet spot is at the very back of your test range so why would you not keep going to find out just how long that sweet spot might be?
Thank you for the kind words. As for the sweet spot, I could keep going but I’ve never really found much use in doing that and it can lead to a lot of waste barrel life and components. Sometimes less is more.
How did you get the Labradar app to work for you? Mine won't work no matter what device I try to use it with.
Wow John awesome work thank you! This is why I get up an hour early before taking the kids to school lol one question how long do you rest the rifle between shots/groups?
Thank you. As for the groups I just shoot all 30 in a row. It’s not much different than shooting a single relay and the barrel never heats up enough to hurt any data.
What do the numbers 25, 28, 31, etc on your target represent?
very useful information. I learned a lot. What is the machanical rest you are using?
This is an older video and at the time I was using a Seb Mini. I am now using a Seb NEO X.
Is this a jump test from “ touch” or did you start from hard jam?
Your editing of the test shots made me chuckle, gun going off with the bolt open and no hand on the trigger, couple of doubles even.. Nicely explained process, decent looking results too.
No, those shots are another guy on the range.
Straight 284 & 180s? What powder?
Nice videos and thank you for the time you put in this. Question: you mentioned that you have a problem with the vertical strings but not with the horizontal... why is that?
Because for the most part vertical indicates an issue with the load while horizontal is condition. I can adjust for condition but not for a bad load.
@@FClassJohn Thank you. So a bad load can give you a vertical spread, but rarely a horizontal spread.
@@justice1327 i guess it’s a little conditional. If your horizontal matches the vertical then it’s still a bad load but when the vertical is a fraction of he horizontal then I can often feel comfortable that it’s conditions and same this with vertical being the load when the vertical is excessive compared to the horizontal. Does that make sense?
@@FClassJohn Perfect! I have just started verifying my 6mm Comp Match load data at 300yds and 600yds. I am better informed now, thank you.
I would pick the depth in the middle just to make sure I stay in the accuracy node if I have slight fluctuation in seating depth accuracy
In accordance with your post, I wonder how I can know for sure which way barrel wear will affect my position relative to the node. Will I be approaching the slope or moving away from it?
Excellent as always John. I didn't see this being answered yet, maybe I missed it. Are you cleaning between every session? Thanks, keep it up!
Oh boy, the cleaning question 😱
Sooooooo I don't clean nearly as often as you would think. In fact I've only cleaned this barrel once around 30rds in so far and it's got over 200 rds on it.
My Model 70 hunting rifle that I bought 40 years ago was interesting. I scoped it for giggles when I got my borescope only to find 40 years of copper choking the bore. I did a video on the barrel and cleaning since this barrel had never seen copper solvent. I got a lot of flak from folks telling me how I had ruined the accuracy or wasted my time. Never mind this barrel was so choked it was causing accuracy issues and needed the copper cleaned out. My competition pistols get cleaned about every 1K rounds (a match weekend and practice).
Hi John. Thanks for this informative video. I was curious how or if you consider barrel fouling and barrel heat in your testing.
I always try to have a clean barrel, then run a couple fouling shots before starting. I don't focus on area heat as much as I used to but in a perfect world I just want the barrel to be in the same state as it would be during my matches.
@@FClassJohn Great answer, thank you.
Always helpful John... thanks for the education! Two questions: 1) what range do you do sight-in work (100m?); and 2) Do you have a commercial source for those targets? I assume you sight in to warm up to the center “X” and then dial down? Have a great day!
Thank you. I do all my development at 100yds. As for the targets here’s you go, just print them out and yes I shoot the X to reset my zeroes on the scope for the new load and then dial down for the tests.
www.autotrickler.com/uploads/6/3/4/4/63444023/load_development_target.pdf
What is your powder drop setup for the 550?
Did you do this test with the barrel tuner on?