In an apples to apples comparison magnacut is actually a tougher steel than 1095. I don’t know why so many hard use companies use so much 1095, they would be better off using 1074, or better yet 52100 or 8670. 1095 can actually be hardened up to 67 Rockwell, so to temper it all the way down to 56 or 55 you have very little toughness and very little edge holding. One of the things that the Knife community does as it relates the toughness is it kinda counts chips as failures but not so much rolls, or another way to put it if a knife cracks in half that failed if a knife bends, then it didn’t fail. bend, roll crack or chip they are all forms of failure. Keep in mind, some companies run these steals at lower hardness for reasons, totally outside of performance, like tooling, and wear on their machines.
Hey Creely! Love your stuff. Hoping to get a Mako (I think it’s called?) someday. Yes- companies say “for toughness” when they actually mean “to save us money.” I am hoping these videos enlighten people. It blows my mind when people advocate for 1095 being “better and tougher” than Magnacut. It’s HILARIOUS! But- THAT is what we have been spoon fed. So how are we supposed to know? Hoping this portfolio assists in educating the general knife public.
Im gonna say price. 1095 is cheap. Heat treatment done in huge amounts with a 3to4 point difference in hardness. That's enough to make 2 knives preform totally different. Then again id bet most knives never see real use.
@@ericasedc Magnacuts in a different class in many ways, but some of those other steels I mentioned are priced similar to 1095, but just a lot tougher. I have a few Magnacut makos which are from the original short run that was used for testing. The DBK boys think it’s the best Magnacut they’ve used.
I thought the benefit of 1095, O1, 52100 etc, was they could survive extreme bending when bashed through logs for pretend survival. And I have subscribed to that idea as a reason to hold some value in spring steels. I have certainly bent my Tramontina machete into some weird curves clearing fallen limbs in the back yard each year. Seriously, that machete surprises me each year. With that in mind, does Magnacut bend and then return to shape in this sort of abuse? Could it be used successfully in hard use thin bladed machetes?
The reality is that most people will never get close to even needing a "tough" knife to begin with. The other reality is that it is MUCH harder to manufacture knives with a high hardness. You either have to heat treat after milling which causes a lot of problems with warping, or you have to mill hardened steel which causes a lot of problems with tool longevity, fixturing, speed of cut paths, and waste due to failures. That's the reason knife companies don't do it, anything they say otherwise is marketing.
Dropping knowledge and not spoon feeding us the same garbage is why I’m here👍🏻You keep it honest…..I’m here for it and will be watching every test and video you do🙂
One of your best videos so far, with lots of good information to correct misconceptions. Even for us who knew this before, it's nice to feel validated.
Strength>toughness. Strength comes from good toughness at high hardness. Most of these super steels will still cut with a "dull" edge because of the carbides, if something like 1095 or 8cr goes dull it's basically the backside of a butter knife. I beat on my knives daily at a blue collar job, I pretty much only use super hard tool steels and I've never broken a knife.
Been collecting, using and making knives since the late 1960!s. Great to see the evolution in knife steel. Never been a huge fan of the thought that keeping it soft was good. No pun intended. Was good to hear you say as Latin says also “Geometry is more important than steel” I have several BGM and love them. I carry one everyday. Custom makers who are real pros know how to get the most from each steel. Good info doll.
THANK YOU, Erica!! I can't tell you how much I hear companies & makers claim they run certain steel softer for "toughness" and "ease of sharpening". I have not found a steel yet that I can't sharpen. Of course, a knife that is 40thou BTE takes longer to sharpen than a knife that's 10 thou. I also find harder steel (62 & up) often easier to sharpen. Where softer steel (that should be harder) more often has flaky or more stubborn burrs. I also don't understand makers that are selling $300 knives are saying they run it soft "for the customers" so it's not hard to sharpen. If someone buying a $250+ knife they can afford a decent stone or 2, a Naniwa Super stone or a Shaptopn Pro is about $40-50 and they can easily sharpen super hard steel like ZDP 189 at 67HRC. Also cheap diamond plates are available everywhere now. The makers are either stubborn and stuck in their old ways, or they want to save money on belts (in my humble opinion).
You are a well educated young lady and I love your videos I'm one thats been around for years and have so many knives and use them ,sharpen and test them all the time with different results so I know you know what you are talking about! I think you are great girl keep up the good work! Ken
Great video, and you're absolutely right, but also oversimplified the issue. You want to educate the average knife user, but knife users are not a monolithic block. You're young, and your experience revolves around your reality. I've been sharpening knives since I was 14. It's not hard at all. But your average knife user can't sharpen their knife properly. Maybe 3 out of ten can sharpen their knives. You're right about time. It just takes a little longer to sharpen hard super Steels. But time = effort, and effort = hard. So, to a survivalist the ability who will spend weeks in the bush the ability to sharpen a knife on a stone is valid. And you're not going to sharpen 3v on a stone. To a Hunter, who has to gut out and quarter game before night fall, 3Vs great. He doesn't have to stop and sharpen their knife. The other thing you're missing is that most people aren't going to spend $300 on a knife because the steel is better. What you're doing is good and important. But I would try to frame your conversations about the benefits of tough super Steels as an option rather than this is best for everyone. Knife manufacturers know their market's. Knife manufacturers don't sell more 1095 knives than 3v knives because 1095 is better. It's because most people won't spend $300 for a knife. 😊 loving the steel conversation, and you're right.
Great knowledge passed down to us viewers, greatly appreciated. I think you need to open up your own knife business!! ERICA’s EXCELLENT EDGES !! Thanks for everything, I look forward to your shows. Greetings from Southern California, this is Alan.
Hello Erica, I am looking forward to your coming videos. I think the subject matter you will be covering will be very interesting and enlightening. I can't think of another knife channel that is providing that type of comparative analysis. Anyway I just wanted to drop a comment to let you know that I enjoy listening to your thoughts and your presentation is always entertaining. Your a very bright person and I appreciate your channel.🙂
I think it’s hilarious when people talk about having to sharpen on a rock or on the side of a mountain and they spent $300 on a knife. Spend $35 more bucks for a diamond plate lol that’s silly. I hunt all the time and have never had to sharpen my knife on a rock in 45 years. For Pete’s sake get a field sharpener. Put it in your back pocket. I agree…if you’re charging premium prices for cheaper softer steel, that’s on the makers. I’m not paying $250 for d2 or vg10 or 1095 with low hardness. It’s a slap in the face to us consumers. They need to price accordingly. In the other hand if you’re selling me a knife in 01 tool steel custom made with a good heat treat I don’t mind paying $150. You go higher than that, I want a better steel and better geometry
I've already seen someone else bring it up here in the comments. Kinda at least. But if these companies really cared about toughness, they should probably stop using 1095, its not particularly tough anyway. If you look at impact toughness testing, at any given hardness 10v is actually tougher! If they really cared much about toughness they would run 1084, 1080, 80crv2, and go at a higher hardness even. But anyway. Great video so far. Edit: oh. So on the magnacut thing, you are loosing toughness the harder you get, its just not losing enough to actually be a problem, and probably not even noticable in use. You just technically are losing it.
Ill just reply to this. I think simple steels do have their place, particularly 52100, it actually in the 66 range should have very good edge stability, if done by a custom maker it can do a really good job. Other low alloy stuff can have other uses for reasons other than performance. Like guys that do really interesting damascus. Higher alloy steels can really complicate that process. Overall i agree with the sentiment, but I think its good to not overly generalize with it.
You're only like half right here. Soft treats definitely have a place on large chopping blades and things like axes that are subject to pretty crazy amounts of force. Some steels are also much tougher than others. Try making an axe out of Maxamet and see how long that lasts. Geometry can indeed go a long way to compensate, but at a certain point the steel composition presents a pretty stark limiting factor. Magnacut also *does* lose toughness as HRC goes up, and Larrin *does* state this in the charts on his site. It's only a few ft-lbs from 60 to 63hrc, but starts to drop more steeply the higher you go from there. I think you have a bias for small knives and the particular work you do with them, and it colors your perspective very strongly. I use knives in the woods and around the garden all the time. In my experience, I've had 20CV/M390 chip out pretty consistently even after trying different edge geometries. I've grown to hate that steel regardless of treat or maker. Something like 14C28N, on the other hand, chugs along like a champ even at lower angle bevels. Since "super steel" is a super general term that encompasses a very broad and diverse selection of steels, it really doesn't track to blanket them all as less tough, chippy, or shitty for hard use. A better distinction to make is that high carbide steels are not well suited to hard use and can indeed chip easily, whereas fine microstructure steels are tough. Interestingly, although Magnacut is considered a "super steel" buy the geek community, it does have a pretty fine microstructure and is fairly tough. As to what you said on sharpening, you're not wrong in that anything can be sharpened well and fairly easily with the proper abrasives. However, as you say, it does take longer and the longer you sharpen the more chances there are for you to be inconsistent with your angle and the quality of your edge can suffer. The better you are at it, the less of a problem it will be, but it's a factor. You also might not always have high quality abrasives on you in the woods, hence why ease of sharpening with basic abrasives is emphasized for survival and Bushcraft knives. I can also tell you that trying to sharpen out edge damage on a hard super steel on a small 4x1 field stone SUCKS. I do agree that a chunky Izula in a soft (relative to knives) treat is not my kind of knife, and I agree that many makers have unnecessarily soft treats and bad marketing. You're right on when you say there's an optimal middle ground and that rolling really isn't much better than chipping. A good treat absolutely does make a massive difference.
Can't wait to see where all the testing takes us. I have to admit, I do not know enough about all of the newer steels. Take care and you family is in my prayers. Live Long Prosper and Collect Your Own Way!
While i mostly agree with your perspective and approch towards knives, you should differntiate between toughness (=resistance to crack initiation) and yield strength (= resistance to plastic deformation). For people that use their knives as knives toughness is not the most important attribute, it primarily allows for thin geometry. Even batoning knot free wood does not require a lot of toughness. Toughness is very important for lateral stress like (incompetent) choping and prying. Yield strength (highly corellated with hardness) is very important for edge stability. It seems like you are mostly mean edge stability when you talk about toughness. While toughness is a small part of edge stability, it is mostly about yoeld strength. Larrin wrote a good article about the work of Roman Landes on edge stability. Appreciate your contribution to the Knife community, keep up the great work!
Another great and informative video, Erica. I have a Ferrum forge stinger in nitro v. It’s just a pocket knife so I don’t hard use it. Light tasks. Opening packages. And such. But I love it. I’m a relative noob. I just in the last couple of years got into knives after my buddy gifted me a master hunter in San mai. Before that I just had my grandads old timer and a little stone you could fit in your pocket. I need way more work on my sharpening skills. I have whet stones. Just got a strop and some compound. I’ve got about a dozen knives or so now in various steels. Have a Maxace Neptune in route and a K-Bar Snody boss and big boss coming as well. They were on super sale. Thanks again, informative video. Tell your mom I said hi. 😂🤣
Hi Erica, interesting topic. Blade geomety, type of steel, coating and heat treating always combine to a certain characteristic of the knife. With some manufacturers you still have to take quality fluctuations into account😂
After wanting it for about 3 or 4 years now I got an Esse Izula. I like the size. I also like my Mora Classic 1. I also carry a SAK with a cork screw (and not for wine lol). And I also have my Leatherman PST. I usually carry 3 knives at a time or more depending on what I’m doing. I have loved knives since I was 4 years old. That’s over 60+ years. Good video. I just found you.
You Young Lady are a Remarkable person. Definitely opened my eyes to knife steel. Really looking forward to M390 review, I have been wanting a Bradford Guardian 3, hopefully you will get your hands on one. 👍👊❤
You're correct to the extent that it relates to knives and knife uses like cutting things. Most of the steels we use are for drill bits and high strength/hardness applications where these properties and characteristics like toughness absolutely apply. You don't have a drill bit if it shatters every time you try to make a cut because you hardened it too much. Most of our knowledge comes from those applications since the knife community is usually the smallest consumer of these steels. To my knowledge, there have been very few steels specifically designed for knife makers.
Love this! Erica The Educator...The Debunker...The Demystifier.. Speaking FACTS! 🤣 I can't really blame people for not knowing the detailed info and minutiae of blade steels, etc. Most people are lazy (like me!) and don't have the passion that you have to quest for this knowledge thru your experience & exploration, E! All of the old school soft "tough" steel knife manufacturers like Esee and Tops always seemed to me like they were just trying to justify and rationalize to the consumer why they were using cheap, soft steels with catchwords like "tough" and old school imagery of sharpening your Esee "in the field on a rock" so people would buy their shit. Like how cigarette companies always conned people with the "rustic" imagery of the Cowboy smoking a damn Marlboro! Some cheap guitar manufacturers used to rationalize the high (borderline unplayable) action on their guitars as "sounding better", when in reality they just didn't want to spend the money on low playable action cause it cost more with higher skilled labor. Unrelated: green Seager beanie for the win!!! OMFG 😻 You're killing these recent videos, Erica!!! ❤
Hi Erica. Ty for info. I want to buy a couple more fixed blades soon. I would like a super ergonomic, fixed super steel big ass knife to wear on my hip camping. Im hoping buck will make a 119 special in magnacut. I also like the way the buck vanguard 192 feels in my hand!!! That feels awesome. Im trying to learn more about knives and find something great. Glad i found your channel.
You accurately describe where we are, but might have come across more calmly if you’d included (making the video too long) the history of how we got here. Many of the voices are at last as old as I. In 1975 the dialog about thickness/toughness was the same, Buck’s version, once they came out with it, of 420 SS and D2 - before it mostly came from China - were by a big margin the super steels, not including custom 5160, etc. We used D2 to cut metal in our factory for the 30 years I was there because it was the best thing. The guys at Crucible later spent a lot of time educating me over the phone, even though recommending against the products they were creating! In that last century (how we got here) if you hardened most things above 60RC, the steel might explode under much stress. Somewhere after the first decade of this century, the equipment, measuring and otherwise, has increased explosively. As so has the knowledge of metallurgy, etc. And that partly because the microscopes are much better. The old narrative made sense at one time, so we are due for an understanding shift. Therefore, good points! Alas, we used to buy work/daily driver cars and trucks (EDC) for the cost of our Izulas! I have several Esses (favorites for stimming), but think a hundred bucks is insane for 1095. Reckon the folks making them also need to eat. I would LOVE to get some CruWear tools and have wanted to ever since it first appeared on Crucible’s website. Often wonder if newer more expensive steels were worth the cost. BUT, old guy. Even that $185 you spoke of seems out of reach! I have to pick an outdated steel and be pleased one such knife is so much better than the 3-4 knives I used and sharpened daily 6 days a week at work! SORRY this is too long to read! Carry on!
Seems like you're on a good track for this series--education. For many moons there have been a lot of old-school ideas and myths in the knife world. But in recent years there's more science-based info and consistent test data available. One obvious example is Knife Steel Nerds/Larrin Thomas, who have published reams of solid data based on scientific evidence and careful testing. Also, Pete at Cedric and Ada Outdoors has done years of consistent testing on a wide range of knife steels. Carry on, Erica!
The knife that really opened my eyes to supersteels for harder use was my Rex 45 pm2. The thing feels invincible. Too tough and strong to chip and too hard to roll or wear. It does dull from wear eventually, but in my use it happens so slow it's hard to tell. Not like most knives you use hard once and they lose bite or roll or microchip. Granted I haven't tried batoning it but that's not relevant to me in a regular sized folding knife. I did chop some hard vines and pencil sized branches with it though, and the edge felt like nothing even happened after.
For a lot of people, taking LONGER to sharpen does equate to being HARDER to sharpen WELL. For a non-expert sharpener, it get harder to hold the same angle against the stone the longer the sharpening process takes. Think about the extreme case of a steel that only requires one pass to sharpen - it would be literally impossible to round over the edge bevel because that one swipe would make a perfectly flat bevel. The inverse is also true, meaning that a knife that requires a year to sharpen will inevitably have a rounded edge bevel.
This is really reaching and not realistic. And a negative mindset to be in toward sharpening. You are fully capable of holding an angle for 5 minutes to sharpen Maxamet- I am sure of it. Have a nice day!!!❤
@@ericasedcI’m just telling you what I’ve experienced in my daily life. I get worse results when I free-hand sharpen harder steels because the edge bevel isn’t crisp. No doubt I could put in some time and get better, but I prefer using fixed-angle systems. At the end of the day, at my current ability level, softer steels come out with nicer edges and cleaner bevels any time I have to hand-sharpen at work.
Watch BBB hammer knives through nails and bolts. Yep tough as heck. My son has used the Manix BBB 15V for over 8 months now and he is not easy on any knife. It has not even needed sharpening. No chips no nothing just cuts like a razor. My S11V native is one of the two I always use. No problems. And my Rex 45 is incredible. I use it for months with just stropping. My Rex 76 Mule is hard and tough as nails. I tried using my CruWear native and it is dull in a couple days. CTS XHP in my Chapparal with Maple handle is a great little pocket knife. Cuts and cuts and cuts.
As to the cruwear spyderco, try a couple good sharpening, spyderco uses belts and have had issues with the blade edge being over heated and a few sharpening will remove the cooked metal. Unless you got one with a bad heat treat to start with, but cruwear at 62+ is usually pretty good.
I love my Esee knives for what they are. Great assessment on toughness. It of course assumes folks wish to use a knife like an actual knife and not as a pry bar 😂 Those CCK knives are sweet but it seems they’re in short supply - will have to get my name down for one.
Glad I found your channel, I think I've heard stuff about you on other channels. I'm guessing it was you, or maybe a different Erica but I doubt that. Anyways I subscribe, you're very knowledgeable, can't wait to check out some videos 👍.
Wow...Definitely a lot of information here!!! You made me laugh at one point when you talked about old old steel....I guess I'm from the old old old old steel days or something. Most of the steels you mentioned I have never heard of. Honestly, I used to know guns. I used to know cars. I had a clue about knives but didn't "know" knives. But the only steel that comes to mind is 440. I'm going to have to find a chart showing the different steels. I love your thoughts about the thick blades and soft steel. Almost seems like a no-brainer. Especially once someone points it out!!! So thank you!! Also interesting that the hard steel knife you showed had no damage after your batoning. I wouldn't have guessed that. I would have thought a medium hardness would have been best for that. This hurts my brain!! lol. Thank you again for explaining stuff for those of us who don't know the stuff!! 🙂
Thanks for watching Bill! I just love shining light on different ways of thinking/educating ourselves. It brings me joy! I hope all is well with you. I’m really excited for you to get your present!
If you want to see charts comparing the properties of different steels you need to check out Knife Steel Nerds. It is A LOT of information, kinda overwhelming and brain hurty, but Larrin Thomas (who runs Knife Steel Nerds and invented Magnacut) is definitely the one to go to for that kind of info. Also here on CZcams, The Home Slice has a lot of good educational content and experiments with different sharpening techniques, steels etc. Pete from Cedric and Ada too, although he's not as focused on educational videos he's a big part of the movement towards people testing and experimenting with knives.
@@joshstarkey8883 Thanks Josh!! I'll look up the info for the chart. I'm not heavily invested in the topic (yet) but I think I'm way out of knowledge on steel compositions and etc. I like Erica's explanation of hardness, but still not sure about any of the steels. Thanks for the info!!
The only times I find a steel “hard to sharpen” is if it’s run too soft and I have to chase a burr back & forth all day. And it’s really more of a pain in the ass than actually being difficult.
Toughness "myth" was a fact in the 20th century, steels in the shape of knives of that era were rather difficult to made tough and hard due to technology constraints. Steels and technology of the 21st century have made possible what before was unthinkable.
Old cheap guy here, you are making great points, no offense taken, you present the situation very well, but some of us won't change as you know, i believe what will strike the biggest blow against this marketing thing with the toughness and bushcrafting and batoning, is when some of the big names in that world say "quit messing around and get a hatchet", thats what all the well known and respected names of camping and survival did in the days of yesterday. Carry on, i gotta catch up on my nap
1095 is cheap, and if it has a good differential heat treat it is tough enough to handle most anything you will find in the wood and hold an acceptable edge. It is't the end-all-be-all of toughness, but not everyone needs 3V (not sure I do).
Thanks for this video Erica! Two questions: Is it less costly for companies to heat treat to a lower HRC (I'm not talking about the cost of machining harder steels here)? What are your thoughts on 14C28N as an entry level steel like Nitro V?
More like less costly because the softer, the easier to grind. AKA spending less on abrasives (belts). I have never used 14C28N- but have heard great things about it!!!
Got an old camillus, believe it was made early seventies. Don't reckon it's magnacut but it's cut everything asked of it blades bit whittled down now,still razor sharp. The best knife or steele is what serves one.😊
As some one who doesn't have money to waste nor enough steel types to compare, it is very difficult to navigate the information constantly thrown at me. I have repeatedly been told the high edge retention steels will chip but ... I am not buying a $500 knife and beating the crap out of it to find out. For that, I appreciate you and others who have been starting to question the "facts" and put them to the test. Having said that - I laughed when you suggested making Cruwear the "entry" level steel. In an ideal world, sure, but for people who are struggling financially, that would effectively price us out of being able to buy a knife. Poor folk like going out into the woods too! I agree with what you said after. Lets stop using the cheap steel and charging premium prices for it. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience!
Erica I agree with Fook, I own a 240 Terrava Puukko, it cost $75 , it may not hold an edge as long as Magnacut, but I can sharpen it to hair shaving with a wet river stone and I would bet anything that it could out muscle the Callari knife, especially the tip. I can’t spend $500-600 on a field knife either, nor would beat on one that expensive. I also own an old gerber strongarm which is made of 420h… this type of knife as passed through 7 YT ers. They beat the snot out of it and it’s still alive. That knife cost me about the same as the puukko.
Erica, I wasn’t joking about the puukko especially if you use the 200. I have the longer 240. It’s about the toughest fixed blade made. Just like the folding blades like the cold steel 4 max scout or the SR 1 Lite clip point are virtual indestructible. That’s with AUS 10a (scout) and 8cr14mov (SR1).
Please beware that izula sheath can get sand trapped and can damage the edge. Izula is more like a gardening tool/mini pry bar , not really a slicer , but i like it for what it is .
Running it softer also makes it much easier to sharpen, especially in the field where you’re unlikely to have your chosen sharpening system, weight in the field is one of our biggest enemies, you’ll usually find something like a dc4, or teh work sharp field sharpener, some steels cannot be sharpened without diamond stones or a belt system. figuring out what hrc you run your steel, depends on what your goal is, it’s all a trade off, a really high hrc for the steel results in chipping or breaking,
I don't remember if this has been discussed before or not it probably has but what about D-2 steel where does that fall in the spectrum? I have heard a lot lately about it but never really heard the end result. Stay safe.
As with anything it depends on the heat treat, and if you are looking at Chinese D2 or something like cpm D2. It's a "semi stainless " but I've always had good luck with it. Medford knives used D2 on a lot of $600+ knives for a long time. For me at least, D2 isn't a bad choice for general use as long as it's a reasonable price point.
I generally agree but steels like Magnacut are a fairly recent development. Knife steel chemistry has taken some serious leaps forward in a relatively short period. While I have 1095 knives I generally steer away from them due to corrosion. I live in NH and spend a lot of time on the ocean. For the last few years I've been using a few Spyderco Salt knives in H1 and LC200N. Both have been great remaining corrosion free with minimal care even with direct immersion. I'm encouraged by the move by many companies to better steels like Magnacut. I'm looking forward to to comparing the Magnacut in that environment. So to your point different steels have their application. And certainly some will become obsolete, ATS34 was at one time the rage. But I don't only view it as industry propaganda. Its progress. While certainly some companies are coming slower than others.
I do this is true. To some extent. Though, a lot of peoples favorite steels aren't particularly new. Just not that many companies were willing to work with them before. 10v has been around since the 60's iirc, and s90v was around under the name 420v since the 90's. Though, heat treats on a lot of steels even from the custom makers tended to be softer back in the day, even for the guys that were always looking to use the latest and greatest like phil wilson. Who definitely was a pioneer for knife making imo. I think its guys like him, and companies like spyderco that have really been the driver for the progress we have gotten for steel choices, and then guys like shawn houston, and larrin thomas, pushing geometry, heat treatments, and information about the steels themselves.
@@_BLANK_BLANK I agree. I was meaning more to the particle metallurgy steel types. I realize there are great steels that are not PM. To Erica’s point and to yours. I have had similarly styled knives with the same steel type perform very differently due to their geometry, edge angle, hardness etc. I think overall companies are realizing they were being left behind. I know there have been excellent small knife makers that are ahead of the curve. A lot of that due to their passion. But not everyone can afford them. So when I see companies like Buck going to S35VN with better treatment or now Case about to introduce their Bridge Line using CPM20CV it makes me happy. I love some of the old school designs I grew up with finally using better performing steels. I don’t need every knife I own to make me look like I’m part of the John Wick cast. Icing on the cake when they are US manufactured.
@@user-ml4ry8zi7o oh yeah, i dont disagree with what you said really, just adding my own thoughts on it. The ones i mentioned from the past are actually pm steels, m390/20cv which you mentioned is another it came before 420v/s90v even. Mostly on that part is just highlighting that the steels have been there, just the driving force from the consumer, and the makers wasn't yet. But over time, that has thankfully changed.
I mostly agree with you. Tops and Esee are lasy. But i think you can make really good knives out of older steels when you treat them higher. 1095 is a different story to me. It is just a cheap bad steel and there are steels out there that perform better in EVERY aspect and don’t brake the bank. I think edge geometry and treatment are more important than steel (And i love my supersteels). If we as a market fix those to we can make quiet good knives even out of 8670 or 52100. something i like about esee and some other companies is the warranty. It encourages the user to really use the knives instead of babying it. Something we need to talk about is that a lot of companies and males only use one or two steels. I think that is only to cut costs (what is understandable but bad for the customers. Just logistically speaking a chopper can not have the same steel as a filet knive while it is the ideal choice for both of them. I think we should be willing to spend more money on companies that work with like 4-6 different Steels. I think this should become a consideration in quality. Probably you could make a video about this topic.😊
I guess if they make the blades very thin & low HRC they’d eventually bent, maybe that’s the reason for thicker stock? Also a fairly thick blade and still be a phenomenal cutter depending on the geometry. So I don’t think all knives need to be either thick & higher HRC or the opposite.
And as far as hardness, toughness, and geometry goes I really wonder where the current school of thought comes from. My grandfather was of the opinion - run the steel as hard as you can, if you need to worry about toughness you should be rethinking geometry first. And he got into knife making back in the 50’s.
If something takes longer to do, that equates to fatigue, therefore directly leads to a higher level of difficulty. Which, makes it more difficult. Sharpening M4 is a worlds different from sharpening something like 8cr14mov or 14c28n. Also, I’ve been using knives in the field since I was 6. The higher the HRC, the more likely it is your edge will chip. I’d rather a bend, than a break. I respect your opinion though.
If you get tired sharpening… man up. End of story😂 also you’re not correct. If the blade has the correct geometry for the task- higher HRC does NOT equate to chipping. Just reiterating that because your comment is misinformation ❤
Also, you should send that brown knife to Calculated Survival. See if it can handle a wack. That’s another thing, the higher the HRC, the likelier it is you snap your blade when prying or batoning.
@@ericasedcYes it does equate to a higher likelihood of chipping. Literally nobody debates this except you. Lol… And I guarantee if we go free hand, I could sharpen 10 times the amount of knives you can. But regardless, it doesn’t matter… longer duration equates to more difficulty. That’s like saying “a 200 pound stone isn’t harder to roll than a 50 pound stone, it just takes longer.”. No offense, but do you realize how stupid sound now?😂
@@EDCPride no. Because I’m correct and you aren’t. And that’s ok! Geometry can override the chipping. And I’m sorry you do not know enough about how that works to realize that! This is what the video is for- educating people like you. 🥰
@@ericasedc Blade geometry plays a factor. But if you get two knives, same blade geometry, one with a lower HRC(50-55) and the other with a higher HRC(61-64), the blade with the higher HRC will also have a higher likelihood of chipping in comparison to the blade with a lower HRC. It’s okay that you think you’re right. The vast majority of this generation is delusional, you’re no different. 💛
Oh FAR FROM IT! I am NOT a metallurgist/ DR / professional. These are simple facts ANYONE could find if they researched and had the right resources available to them! Hence why I am trying to add to that resource database! 🥰
The same steel at a significantly higher hardness (such as 1095 at hrc 64 vs hrc 56) will have a lower yield strength. The steel industry has decades of testing data on this issue. Saying that "hard" vs "very hard" does not have strength trade-offs is not a great way to start this investigation. Knife makers have run tests and shown that poor normalization before hardening leaves a very coarse grain structure that breaks easily. Outdoors55 covered normalization very well with actual break tests. Poor strength due to excessive hardness often shows up as edge chipping. You are right that we are seeking the best middle ground between soft rolling and ultra hard chipping. Steel will eventually fail. Controlling how it fails is what we are after. A few years ago there was a plague of over hardened D2 that chipped a lot and was really annoying to sharpen well. That got sorted out because the knife makers listened to complaints and adjusted their heat treats. In bolt steel, they maximize strength some through the alloy choice and partly through heat treat - normalize, quench and tempering. The strongest bolts seem to peak out around 40 or 42 hrc. Of course they would rather see a bolt bend a little rather than snap, but in general, bolts in that type of steel are strongest around 40 hrc. Softer and they bend too easily and eventually shear or harder and they shear suddenly. They don't even try to harden them to hrc 50. For bolts, heavy on the toughness side of the equation, 40 hrc is the optimal middle ground. Knife alloys may push the optimal hardness up a little, but I doubt you're ever going to get maximum strength at 65 hrc. Bolt engineering is very focused on maximizing a combination of tensile strength and yield strength. Identifying the critical strength types to achieve knife toughness would be a good issue to clarify. It is likely to be complicated, such as edge toughness from side loads versus spine toughness from prying might be totally different optimizations. The metal forming industry has been working the hardness/toughness compromise for a long time in high speed and high temperature tool steels for die cutting and high speed cutters (e.g. M2, M3, M4, 3V, 4V, ...). They will have very good numbers on the hardness and toughness trade-offs. Good field knives have emphasized avoiding edge chipping (over-hardness) because it is such a pain to fix edge chipping in the field. Way too much grinding to fix a chip. You can strop or steel an edge roll back straight pretty quickly if you practice it a few times. To fix a chip, I need at least a bunch of 150 through 400 grit media and then some 600-1200 to finish. That's a lot of sharpening gear for the field. I would rather take a knife that doesn't chip, a small 400 diamond stone/card and a small 1000 ceramic stone. I think TOPS runs them a little too soft at hrc 56 or so. Most other outdoor tough knife makers get by just fine with hrc 58-60. My choppers take more of a beating and may be 5160 at hrc 55 or so.
Luckily that’s not how I started the conversation, and if you watch the series you’ll understand what’s happening. Nothing should be 55 HRC end of story. Thanks for watching!
@@ericasedc I see. I thought this was the launch of the topic. I agree no knife should be 55 hrc. I'm not sure about axes. Many axes are made from 1045 or 1050. If you harden those alloys up to 58, they might chip like hell on a cold tree in the winter up north. But I don't know it for a fact. It would be good to get actual data on such things. So you might have to dictate a better alloy like 5160 or so. So "should" becomes "you have to bring all your alloys up to my expectations", which is a stretch. There are budget axes for economic reasons. Big choppers are in between knives and axes in toughness requirements, but even then 55 seems too low. We do have to keep pressure on knife manufacturers to maintain performance standards. For example, the Buck 119 Special used to be made from 440C, then in the early 80s they changed to 425M to reduce wear on their dies and grinders. Then after a couple years they changed to 420HC. So they slid down as low as people would put up with. We need to put up with less BS. I bought one of the 425M models. The guy at the dedicated knife store (Merlo's Cutlery) claimed it was 440C, so even the retailer didn't know they had changed formulation. Just before OKC went under, they changed a bunch of their large knives from 1095 or 5160 to 1075, which was disappointing. Of course maybe they had a point about making knives where the customer wasn't covering the cost of production. I don't want to see any more U.S. knife makers go bankrupt. I've seen 3 major ones go under after I started collecting knives - Schrade, Camillus and now Ontario.
Erica my only magnacut knife came, and the entire edge rolled after cutting food on a cutting board and 63 HRC according to the manufacturer. The edge was ground uneven so maybe that played a role in it just folding over,
Sometimes they burn the edge during buffing/polishing at the factory. It happens on Moras now and then. Grind off the burnt layer with a mildly aggressive sharpening and you may hit the hard stuff.
Mr Thomas stated that the most important aspect of edge retention was Edge Geometry. I've heard him state this on several interviews. I respect his knowledge, and it sounds like you are in this school of thought as well. Thanks for your time and this video.
bingo. people focus exclusively on toughness when the real thing that matters is the edge stability. which requires a combination of toughness and hardness. prime example is something like m4, it’s a high hardness but also high toughness steel and thus is has great edge stability.
Well they don’t harden the 1095 because it’s more chippy when hard probably. I think there’s definitely some method to the madness even if they don’t have it all figured out yet
No. It’s because it’s easiest to grind when soft. Easy to grind means less abrasives(belts). Less belts means saving money. It’s alllllll a marketing tactic to save themselves money. But shhhh haha
In an apples to apples comparison magnacut is actually a tougher steel than 1095. I don’t know why so many hard use companies use so much 1095, they would be better off using 1074, or better yet 52100 or 8670. 1095 can actually be hardened up to 67 Rockwell, so to temper it all the way down to 56 or 55 you have very little toughness and very little edge holding. One of the things that the Knife community does as it relates the toughness is it kinda counts chips as failures but not so much rolls, or another way to put it if a knife cracks in half that failed if a knife bends, then it didn’t fail. bend, roll crack or chip they are all forms of failure. Keep in mind, some companies run these steals at lower hardness for reasons, totally outside of performance, like tooling, and wear on their machines.
Hey Creely! Love your stuff. Hoping to get a Mako (I think it’s called?) someday. Yes- companies say “for toughness” when they actually mean “to save us money.” I am hoping these videos enlighten people. It blows my mind when people advocate for 1095 being “better and tougher” than Magnacut. It’s HILARIOUS! But- THAT is what we have been spoon fed. So how are we supposed to know? Hoping this portfolio assists in educating the general knife public.
Im gonna say price. 1095 is cheap. Heat treatment done in huge amounts with a 3to4 point difference in hardness. That's enough to make 2 knives preform totally different.
Then again id bet most knives never see real use.
@@ericasedc Magnacuts in a different class in many ways, but some of those other steels I mentioned are priced similar to 1095, but just a lot tougher. I have a few Magnacut makos which are from the original short run that was used for testing. The DBK boys think it’s the best Magnacut they’ve used.
@@Creelyblades woah. That sounds awesome. I would love to try that!!!
I thought the benefit of 1095, O1, 52100 etc, was they could survive extreme bending when bashed through logs for pretend survival.
And I have subscribed to that idea as a reason to hold some value in spring steels. I have certainly bent my Tramontina machete into some weird curves clearing fallen limbs in the back yard each year. Seriously, that machete surprises me each year.
With that in mind, does Magnacut bend and then return to shape in this sort of abuse? Could it be used successfully in hard use thin bladed machetes?
Andthis is why we watch this channel. Thanks Erica, I learn something every time I watch your videos.
Wow. Thank you so much. Seriously. That makes me so happy.
Erica the new Mythbuster 😂
Instead of ghost busters. Mythbusters!
The reality is that most people will never get close to even needing a "tough" knife to begin with. The other reality is that it is MUCH harder to manufacture knives with a high hardness. You either have to heat treat after milling which causes a lot of problems with warping, or you have to mill hardened steel which causes a lot of problems with tool longevity, fixturing, speed of cut paths, and waste due to failures. That's the reason knife companies don't do it, anything they say otherwise is marketing.
Oh for sure!
I fully agree with you. My favorites are magnacut and cruwear because of the best balance between toughness and edge retention.
LOVE those two!
If you like those you’d love 4V
Dropping knowledge and not spoon feeding us the same garbage is why I’m here👍🏻You keep it honest…..I’m here for it and will be watching every test and video you do🙂
Hey thanks man!
One of your best videos so far, with lots of good information to correct misconceptions. Even for us who knew this before, it's nice to feel validated.
Cheers to that my friend!
Strength>toughness. Strength comes from good toughness at high hardness. Most of these super steels will still cut with a "dull" edge because of the carbides, if something like 1095 or 8cr goes dull it's basically the backside of a butter knife.
I beat on my knives daily at a blue collar job, I pretty much only use super hard tool steels and I've never broken a knife.
THANK YOU. Say it louder for the playdoh society 😂
Been collecting, using and making knives since the late 1960!s. Great to see the evolution in knife steel. Never been a huge fan of the thought that keeping it soft was good. No pun intended. Was good to hear you say as Latin says also “Geometry is more important than steel” I have several BGM and love them. I carry one everyday. Custom makers who are real pros know how to get the most from each steel. Good info doll.
Yes!!!! You know the deal! Cheers mate!❤❤❤❤
One of Erica's best vids!! I like Tops knives designs but paying 200+ dollars for 57rc 1095 just isn't reasonable to me
Right?! It makes NO SENSE!
THANK YOU, Erica!! I can't tell you how much I hear companies & makers claim they run certain steel softer for "toughness" and "ease of sharpening". I have not found a steel yet that I can't sharpen. Of course, a knife that is 40thou BTE takes longer to sharpen than a knife that's 10 thou. I also find harder steel (62 & up) often easier to sharpen. Where softer steel (that should be harder) more often has flaky or more stubborn burrs. I also don't understand makers that are selling $300 knives are saying they run it soft "for the customers" so it's not hard to sharpen. If someone buying a $250+ knife they can afford a decent stone or 2, a Naniwa Super stone or a Shaptopn Pro is about $40-50 and they can easily sharpen super hard steel like ZDP 189 at 67HRC. Also cheap diamond plates are available everywhere now. The makers are either stubborn and stuck in their old ways, or they want to save money on belts (in my humble opinion).
That is EXACTLY IT!!!!!
You are a well educated young lady and I love your videos I'm one thats been around for years and have so many knives and use them ,sharpen and test them all the time with different results so I know you know what you are talking about! I think you are great girl keep up the good work! Ken
That made my day Ken!!!!!
Great video, and you're absolutely right, but also oversimplified the issue. You want to educate the average knife user, but knife users are not a monolithic block. You're young, and your experience revolves around your reality. I've been sharpening knives since I was 14. It's not hard at all. But your average knife user can't sharpen their knife properly. Maybe 3 out of ten can sharpen their knives. You're right about time. It just takes a little longer to sharpen hard super Steels. But time = effort, and effort = hard. So, to a survivalist the ability who will spend weeks in the bush the ability to sharpen a knife on a stone is valid. And you're not going to sharpen 3v on a stone. To a Hunter, who has to gut out and quarter game before night fall, 3Vs great. He doesn't have to stop and sharpen their knife.
The other thing you're missing is that most people aren't going to spend $300 on a knife because the steel is better. What you're doing is good and important. But I would try to frame your conversations about the benefits of tough super Steels as an option rather than this is best for everyone. Knife manufacturers know their market's. Knife manufacturers don't sell more 1095 knives than 3v knives because 1095 is better. It's because most people won't spend $300 for a knife. 😊 loving the steel conversation, and you're right.
Thanks for watching!
@@ericasedc you betcha, your the best.
Great knowledge passed down to us viewers, greatly appreciated.
I think you need to open up your own knife business!! ERICA’s EXCELLENT EDGES !!
Thanks for everything, I look forward to your shows. Greetings from Southern California, this is Alan.
Hey Alan! Thanks for the kind words and for watching!
Really appreciate your perspective and dedication to information. That Seeker is a revelation! Mom says hi btw
Hi mom!!!🎉😂
Thanks Erica! You are great at explaining things clearly.
I appreciate that!
I like 1095,affordable holds an edge and easy to sharpen. I like it.
Yay!
Hello Erica, I am looking forward to your coming videos. I think the subject matter you will be covering will be very interesting and enlightening. I can't think of another knife channel that is providing that type of comparative analysis. Anyway I just wanted to drop a comment to let you know that I enjoy listening to your thoughts and your presentation is always entertaining. Your a very bright person and I appreciate your channel.🙂
Wow. Thank you SO MUCH for your kind words!!!!!
Thanks Erica! looking forward to your testing and insights. MaMA so happy she got some love!
Eyyyy mama!
Hell yeah. Love your work Erica I hope all is well
Hey thanks man!
Nice work Erica! Very cool to see your perspective and knowledge and passion in the “edge” community. You bring a lot to the table! ❤️💯
🎉thanks so much!!!
I think it’s hilarious when people talk about having to sharpen on a rock or on the side of a mountain and they spent $300 on a knife. Spend $35 more bucks for a diamond plate lol that’s silly. I hunt all the time and have never had to sharpen my knife on a rock in 45 years. For Pete’s sake get a field sharpener. Put it in your back pocket. I agree…if you’re charging premium prices for cheaper softer steel, that’s on the makers. I’m not paying $250 for d2 or vg10 or 1095 with low hardness. It’s a slap in the face to us consumers. They need to price accordingly. In the other hand if you’re selling me a knife in 01 tool steel custom made with a good heat treat I don’t mind paying $150. You go higher than that, I want a better steel and better geometry
Richter- this is one of the best comments on this entire thread. Excellent point- and I agree whole heartedly!
I've already seen someone else bring it up here in the comments. Kinda at least.
But if these companies really cared about toughness, they should probably stop using 1095, its not particularly tough anyway. If you look at impact toughness testing, at any given hardness 10v is actually tougher!
If they really cared much about toughness they would run 1084, 1080, 80crv2, and go at a higher hardness even.
But anyway. Great video so far.
Edit: oh. So on the magnacut thing, you are loosing toughness the harder you get, its just not losing enough to actually be a problem, and probably not even noticable in use. You just technically are losing it.
Another awesome comment❤
Ill just reply to this.
I think simple steels do have their place, particularly 52100, it actually in the 66 range should have very good edge stability, if done by a custom maker it can do a really good job.
Other low alloy stuff can have other uses for reasons other than performance. Like guys that do really interesting damascus. Higher alloy steels can really complicate that process.
Overall i agree with the sentiment, but I think its good to not overly generalize with it.
You're only like half right here. Soft treats definitely have a place on large chopping blades and things like axes that are subject to pretty crazy amounts of force. Some steels are also much tougher than others. Try making an axe out of Maxamet and see how long that lasts. Geometry can indeed go a long way to compensate, but at a certain point the steel composition presents a pretty stark limiting factor. Magnacut also *does* lose toughness as HRC goes up, and Larrin *does* state this in the charts on his site. It's only a few ft-lbs from 60 to 63hrc, but starts to drop more steeply the higher you go from there. I think you have a bias for small knives and the particular work you do with them, and it colors your perspective very strongly. I use knives in the woods and around the garden all the time. In my experience, I've had 20CV/M390 chip out pretty consistently even after trying different edge geometries. I've grown to hate that steel regardless of treat or maker. Something like 14C28N, on the other hand, chugs along like a champ even at lower angle bevels.
Since "super steel" is a super general term that encompasses a very broad and diverse selection of steels, it really doesn't track to blanket them all as less tough, chippy, or shitty for hard use. A better distinction to make is that high carbide steels are not well suited to hard use and can indeed chip easily, whereas fine microstructure steels are tough. Interestingly, although Magnacut is considered a "super steel" buy the geek community, it does have a pretty fine microstructure and is fairly tough.
As to what you said on sharpening, you're not wrong in that anything can be sharpened well and fairly easily with the proper abrasives. However, as you say, it does take longer and the longer you sharpen the more chances there are for you to be inconsistent with your angle and the quality of your edge can suffer. The better you are at it, the less of a problem it will be, but it's a factor. You also might not always have high quality abrasives on you in the woods, hence why ease of sharpening with basic abrasives is emphasized for survival and Bushcraft knives. I can also tell you that trying to sharpen out edge damage on a hard super steel on a small 4x1 field stone SUCKS.
I do agree that a chunky Izula in a soft (relative to knives) treat is not my kind of knife, and I agree that many makers have unnecessarily soft treats and bad marketing. You're right on when you say there's an optimal middle ground and that rolling really isn't much better than chipping. A good treat absolutely does make a massive difference.
Thanks for watching!
Your content is unbeatable..I get a good chunk of my knife education from you…especially about blade steels..keep it up!! 👊🏼🔥
Dude you’re the best
Very valuable information, thank you!
Informative and your passion is apparent Erica.
Will have to get a fixed blade or two this year.
Take care 'n stay well.
You sure need some Mike!❤
Can't wait to see where all the testing takes us. I have to admit, I do not know enough about all of the newer steels. Take care and you family is in my prayers. Live Long Prosper and Collect Your Own Way!
Thanks so much for watching ❤
While i mostly agree with your perspective and approch towards knives, you should differntiate between toughness (=resistance to crack initiation) and yield strength (= resistance to plastic deformation). For people that use their knives as knives toughness is not the most important attribute, it primarily allows for thin geometry. Even batoning knot free wood does not require a lot of toughness. Toughness is very important for lateral stress like (incompetent) choping and prying. Yield strength (highly corellated with hardness) is very important for edge stability. It seems like you are mostly mean edge stability when you talk about toughness. While toughness is a small part of edge stability, it is mostly about yoeld strength. Larrin wrote a good article about the work of Roman Landes on edge stability.
Appreciate your contribution to the Knife community, keep up the great work!
That is discussed in my most recent video. Thanks!
Wonderful video! The testing you've got coming up is gonna be fun to watch. Cheers, and have a great night, E!
Thanks for watching David. ! Enjoy your night!
Very good topic, I appreciate your views on it. Thanks for sharing, take care and Cheers!
Thanks for stopping by!
Another great and informative video, Erica. I have a Ferrum forge stinger in nitro v. It’s just a pocket knife so I don’t hard use it. Light tasks. Opening packages. And such. But I love it. I’m a relative noob. I just in the last couple of years got into knives after my buddy gifted me a master hunter in San mai. Before that I just had my grandads old timer and a little stone you could fit in your pocket. I need way more work on my sharpening skills. I have whet stones. Just got a strop and some compound. I’ve got about a dozen knives or so now in various steels. Have a Maxace Neptune in route and a K-Bar Snody boss and big boss coming as well. They were on super sale. Thanks again, informative video. Tell your mom I said hi. 😂🤣
Hey my friend! So glad you enjoyed the convo! Sounds like some fun stuff on the way!!!
Great content and very eye opening as usual
I appreciate you!
This was a great video! I Love It!
Thanks so much Chris!
Hi Erica, interesting topic. Blade geomety, type of steel, coating and heat treating always combine to a certain characteristic of the knife. With some manufacturers you still have to take quality fluctuations into account😂
Haha yes!
Got it, good talk. Makes so much sense.
So glad you enjoyed it!
After wanting it for about 3 or 4 years now I got an Esse Izula. I like the size. I also like my Mora Classic 1. I also carry a SAK with a cork screw (and not for wine lol). And I also have my Leatherman PST. I usually carry 3 knives at a time or more depending on what I’m doing. I have loved knives since I was 4 years old. That’s over 60+ years. Good video. I just found you.
Awesome carry! Welcome aboard!
You Young Lady are a Remarkable person. Definitely opened my eyes to knife steel. Really looking forward to M390 review, I have been wanting a Bradford Guardian 3, hopefully you will get your hands on one. 👍👊❤
Wow thank you so much for the kind words!!!
Excellent video! Subscribed 👍
Hey thanks- I wicked appreciate that. Welcome!!!❤
You're correct to the extent that it relates to knives and knife uses like cutting things. Most of the steels we use are for drill bits and high strength/hardness applications where these properties and characteristics like toughness absolutely apply. You don't have a drill bit if it shatters every time you try to make a cut because you hardened it too much. Most of our knowledge comes from those applications since the knife community is usually the smallest consumer of these steels. To my knowledge, there have been very few steels specifically designed for knife makers.
Thanks for watching!
Love this! Erica The Educator...The Debunker...The Demystifier.. Speaking FACTS! 🤣 I can't really blame people for not knowing the detailed info and minutiae of blade steels, etc. Most people are lazy (like me!) and don't have the passion that you have to quest for this knowledge thru your experience & exploration, E! All of the old school soft "tough" steel knife manufacturers like Esee and Tops always seemed to me like they were just trying to justify and rationalize to the consumer why they were using cheap, soft steels with catchwords like "tough" and old school imagery of sharpening your Esee "in the field on a rock" so people would buy their shit. Like how cigarette companies always conned people with the "rustic" imagery of the Cowboy smoking a damn Marlboro! Some cheap guitar manufacturers used to rationalize the high (borderline unplayable) action on their guitars as "sounding better", when in reality they just didn't want to spend the money on low playable action cause it cost more with higher skilled labor. Unrelated: green Seager beanie for the win!!! OMFG 😻 You're killing these recent videos, Erica!!! ❤
Jesse! I love you!❤
Great points here I moved away from the thicker soft outdoor knives a few years ago because the edge geo was just not what I wanted
I hear ya!!!!
Hi Erica. Ty for info. I want to buy a couple more fixed blades soon. I would like a super ergonomic, fixed super steel big ass knife to wear on my hip camping. Im hoping buck will make a 119 special in magnacut. I also like the way the buck vanguard 192 feels in my hand!!! That feels awesome. Im trying to learn more about knives and find something great. Glad i found your channel.
So glad you are part of the fam!!!🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Erica deserves a larger following, great for the edc community. This is the content we need
Awh thanks!🥰🥰🥰🥰
Very nice content thank you 🤩👏🏻
Thanks for watching!
Geometry cuts, and until everyone buying knives understands that the "toughness" arguments for under performing heat treatment will continue.
Very true
You accurately describe where we are, but might have come across more calmly if you’d included (making the video too long) the history of how we got here. Many of the voices are at last as old as I. In 1975 the dialog about thickness/toughness was the same, Buck’s version, once they came out with it, of 420 SS and D2 - before it mostly came from China - were by a big margin the super steels, not including custom 5160, etc. We used D2 to cut metal in our factory for the 30 years I was there because it was the best thing. The guys at Crucible later spent a lot of time educating me over the phone, even though recommending against the products they were creating! In that last century (how we got here) if you hardened most things above 60RC, the steel might explode under much stress. Somewhere after the first decade of this century, the equipment, measuring and otherwise, has increased explosively. As so has the knowledge of metallurgy, etc. And that partly because the microscopes are much better. The old narrative made sense at one time, so we are due for an understanding shift. Therefore, good points! Alas, we used to buy work/daily driver cars and trucks (EDC) for the cost of our Izulas! I have several Esses (favorites for stimming), but think a hundred bucks is insane for 1095. Reckon the folks making them also need to eat. I would LOVE to get some CruWear tools and have wanted to ever since it first appeared on Crucible’s website. Often wonder if newer more expensive steels were worth the cost. BUT, old guy. Even that $185 you spoke of seems out of reach! I have to pick an outdated steel and be pleased one such knife is so much better than the 3-4 knives I used and sharpened daily 6 days a week at work! SORRY this is too long to read! Carry on!
Thanks for watching!
Seems like you're on a good track for this series--education. For many moons there have been a lot of old-school ideas and myths in the knife world. But in recent years there's more science-based info and consistent test data available. One obvious example is Knife Steel Nerds/Larrin Thomas, who have published reams of solid data based on scientific evidence and careful testing. Also, Pete at Cedric and Ada Outdoors has done years of consistent testing on a wide range of knife steels.
Carry on, Erica!
Here we go!
The knife that really opened my eyes to supersteels for harder use was my Rex 45 pm2. The thing feels invincible. Too tough and strong to chip and too hard to roll or wear. It does dull from wear eventually, but in my use it happens so slow it's hard to tell. Not like most knives you use hard once and they lose bite or roll or microchip. Granted I haven't tried batoning it but that's not relevant to me in a regular sized folding knife. I did chop some hard vines and pencil sized branches with it though, and the edge felt like nothing even happened after.
Oh I LOVE REX45!!!!
For a lot of people, taking LONGER to sharpen does equate to being HARDER to sharpen WELL. For a non-expert sharpener, it get harder to hold the same angle against the stone the longer the sharpening process takes.
Think about the extreme case of a steel that only requires one pass to sharpen - it would be literally impossible to round over the edge bevel because that one swipe would make a perfectly flat bevel. The inverse is also true, meaning that a knife that requires a year to sharpen will inevitably have a rounded edge bevel.
This is really reaching and not realistic. And a negative mindset to be in toward sharpening. You are fully capable of holding an angle for 5 minutes to sharpen Maxamet- I am sure of it. Have a nice day!!!❤
@@ericasedcI’m just telling you what I’ve experienced in my daily life. I get worse results when I free-hand sharpen harder steels because the edge bevel isn’t crisp.
No doubt I could put in some time and get better, but I prefer using fixed-angle systems. At the end of the day, at my current ability level, softer steels come out with nicer edges and cleaner bevels any time I have to hand-sharpen at work.
Watch BBB hammer knives through nails and bolts. Yep tough as heck. My son has used the Manix BBB 15V for over 8 months now and he is not easy on any knife. It has not even needed sharpening. No chips no nothing just cuts like a razor. My S11V native is one of the two I always use. No problems. And my Rex 45 is incredible. I use it for months with just stropping. My Rex 76 Mule is hard and tough as nails. I tried using my CruWear native and it is dull in a couple days. CTS XHP in my Chapparal with Maple handle is a great little pocket knife. Cuts and cuts and cuts.
Yes. Spyderco is doing INCREDIBLE things with their steel offerings. Highly impressed with them.
I made a 10V edc blade and I was very surprised on stable the edge is and love that I can get go over 6 months without sharpening.
@@TheScrawnyLumberjack can’t wait for mine!
As to the cruwear spyderco, try a couple good sharpening, spyderco uses belts and have had issues with the blade edge being over heated and a few sharpening will remove the cooked metal. Unless you got one with a bad heat treat to start with, but cruwear at 62+ is usually pretty good.
With the amount of testing that you and especially Super Steel Steve has done I will believe you guys over anybody or any website 🤘🤘
Wow that is a compliment. I will never be at Steve’s level. He is Elite. So grouping us really is a huge acknowledgement ❤ thank you
Come on Erica you are the bomb!!! Besides I found super steel Steve through your content so thank you!!!!🙏
@@Commander_Cody7 everyone needs to know Steve!🥰
100% agree give me all the edge retention i can get with minimal intervention!!!
Super Steel Gang!☠️🌞
@@ericasedc K390... just saying lol
@@57HEMIviken my FAVE
I hope Benchmade is watching this video, and they get a reality check on their prices
Oh this won’t change anything for them trust me❤😂
Heh, you can get a Redoubt in CPM-D2 for $180! I think I might be needing more fixed blades, in 3V and for the same $, in my life.
I love my Esee knives for what they are. Great assessment on toughness. It of course assumes folks wish to use a knife like an actual knife and not as a pry bar 😂 Those CCK knives are sweet but it seems they’re in short supply - will have to get my name down for one.
Get on the books. You need one!!!!!!
Glad I found your channel, I think I've heard stuff about you on other channels.
I'm guessing it was you, or maybe a different Erica but I doubt that.
Anyways I subscribe, you're very knowledgeable, can't wait to check out some videos 👍.
Haha! That’s me!!!🥰
Wow...Definitely a lot of information here!!! You made me laugh at one point when you talked about old old steel....I guess I'm from the old old old old steel days or something. Most of the steels you mentioned I have never heard of. Honestly, I used to know guns. I used to know cars. I had a clue about knives but didn't "know" knives. But the only steel that comes to mind is 440. I'm going to have to find a chart showing the different steels. I love your thoughts about the thick blades and soft steel. Almost seems like a no-brainer. Especially once someone points it out!!! So thank you!! Also interesting that the hard steel knife you showed had no damage after your batoning. I wouldn't have guessed that. I would have thought a medium hardness would have been best for that. This hurts my brain!! lol. Thank you again for explaining stuff for those of us who don't know the stuff!! 🙂
Thanks for watching Bill! I just love shining light on different ways of thinking/educating ourselves. It brings me joy! I hope all is well with you. I’m really excited for you to get your present!
If you want to see charts comparing the properties of different steels you need to check out Knife Steel Nerds. It is A LOT of information, kinda overwhelming and brain hurty, but Larrin Thomas (who runs Knife Steel Nerds and invented Magnacut) is definitely the one to go to for that kind of info. Also here on CZcams, The Home Slice has a lot of good educational content and experiments with different sharpening techniques, steels etc. Pete from Cedric and Ada too, although he's not as focused on educational videos he's a big part of the movement towards people testing and experimenting with knives.
@@joshstarkey8883 Thanks Josh!! I'll look up the info for the chart. I'm not heavily invested in the topic (yet) but I think I'm way out of knowledge on steel compositions and etc. I like Erica's explanation of hardness, but still not sure about any of the steels. Thanks for the info!!
The only times I find a steel “hard to sharpen” is if it’s run too soft and I have to chase a burr back & forth all day. And it’s really more of a pain in the ass than actually being difficult.
Ah yes!
Toughness "myth" was a fact in the 20th century, steels in the shape of knives of that era were rather difficult to made tough and hard due to technology constraints. Steels and technology of the 21st century have made possible what before was unthinkable.
I love when you get all sciencey 🤣
YAY😂😊
Old cheap guy here, you are making great points, no offense taken, you present the situation very well, but some of us won't change as you know, i believe what will strike the biggest blow against this marketing thing with the toughness and bushcrafting and batoning, is when some of the big names in that world say "quit messing around and get a hatchet", thats what all the well known and respected names of camping and survival did in the days of yesterday. Carry on, i gotta catch up on my nap
Hahaha awesome comment here😂❤
1095 is cheap, and if it has a good differential heat treat it is tough enough to handle most anything you will find in the wood and hold an acceptable edge. It is't the end-all-be-all of toughness, but not everyone needs 3V (not sure I do).
Thanks for your input!
1095 is a wonderful steel to hand forge knives with, especially for beginners.
Thanks for this video Erica! Two questions:
Is it less costly for companies to heat treat to a lower HRC (I'm not talking about the cost of machining harder steels here)?
What are your thoughts on 14C28N as an entry level steel like Nitro V?
More like less costly because the softer, the easier to grind. AKA spending less on abrasives (belts). I have never used 14C28N- but have heard great things about it!!!
I have a Fairbairn-Sykes in MagnaCut on my dream-up-a-knife list. I wonder if I could add one in K390?
K390 is my FAVORITE STEEL
@@ericasedc You, Jared, and Pete. That's an impressive group of minds.
I have the same izula with those scales; but my blade is red. I love the knife for a pocket fixed blade. It’s a backup knife.
Awesome!
@@ericasedc yea it is awesome. I forgot to mention I rit dyed those macarta scales black.
Got an old camillus, believe it was made early seventies.
Don't reckon it's magnacut but it's cut everything asked of it blades bit whittled down now,still razor sharp.
The best knife or steele is what serves one.😊
A2 has equal if not better edge rentention than AEB-L. I don’t like AEB-L for EDC but for kitchen use it’s a good performer.
I like A2 actually! Just don’t have a ton of it on hand
Facts!
Hey man!!
Maxamet Native is my favorite knife
Yes!!!🎉
As some one who doesn't have money to waste nor enough steel types to compare, it is very difficult to navigate the information constantly thrown at me. I have repeatedly been told the high edge retention steels will chip but ... I am not buying a $500 knife and beating the crap out of it to find out. For that, I appreciate you and others who have been starting to question the "facts" and put them to the test.
Having said that - I laughed when you suggested making Cruwear the "entry" level steel. In an ideal world, sure, but for people who are struggling financially, that would effectively price us out of being able to buy a knife. Poor folk like going out into the woods too! I agree with what you said after. Lets stop using the cheap steel and charging premium prices for it.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience!
Nitro V and AEB-L are great options for entry level too like I said. And cost effective. Thanks so much for watching!!!!
Erica I agree with Fook, I own a 240 Terrava Puukko, it cost $75 , it may not hold an edge as long as Magnacut, but I can sharpen it to hair shaving with a wet river stone and I would bet anything that it could out muscle the Callari knife, especially the tip. I can’t spend $500-600 on a field knife either, nor would beat on one that expensive. I also own an old gerber strongarm which is made of 420h… this type of knife as passed through 7 YT ers. They beat the snot out of it and it’s still alive. That knife cost me about the same as the puukko.
@@lymedog3176 thanks for the laugh and sharing your thoughts!🤣🥰
Erica, I wasn’t joking about the puukko especially if you use the 200. I have the longer 240. It’s about the toughest fixed blade made. Just like the folding blades like the cold steel 4 max scout or the SR 1 Lite clip point are virtual indestructible. That’s with AUS 10a (scout) and 8cr14mov (SR1).
@@lymedog3176 thanks for sharing!
the girl is dropping some knowledge on the peeps
Trying to help that’s all!
@@ericasedc I’m double your age and I’ve heard all my life soft and thick means toughness. Thank you for correcting that
Please beware that izula sheath can get sand trapped and can damage the edge.
Izula is more like a gardening tool/mini pry bar , not really a slicer , but i like it for what it is .
Yes that’s why I call it a sharpened pry-bar!
good info
Thanks!
Erica go get you a Mcnees Mac 3.2 in magnacut. There are hrc ar 63-64. They are really great knives
Not my jam. But they look really neat!
Does cpm d2 generally fall under the over priced steels, or is it a higher performing steel?
I mean I would not really pick CPM D2 because there are better options at that price point for me- but that’s just me!
@@ericasedc benchmade is using it on expensive knives recently
What’s the HRC of tru-sharp? (CASE stainless)
I think like 55😂
Toughness is not a myth, it just needs perspective.
Thanks for watching!!!
Running it softer also makes it much easier to sharpen, especially in the field where you’re unlikely to have your chosen sharpening system, weight in the field is one of our biggest enemies, you’ll usually find something like a dc4, or teh work sharp field sharpener, some steels cannot be sharpened without diamond stones or a belt system. figuring out what hrc you run your steel, depends on what your goal is, it’s all a trade off, a really high hrc for the steel results in chipping or breaking,
Not true.
I don't remember if this has been discussed before or not it probably has but what about D-2 steel where does that fall in the spectrum? I have heard a lot lately about it but never really heard the end result. Stay safe.
It’s a sub par steel. I put it a hair below Nitro V/AEB-L
As with anything it depends on the heat treat, and if you are looking at Chinese D2 or something like cpm D2. It's a "semi stainless " but I've always had good luck with it. Medford knives used D2 on a lot of $600+ knives for a long time. For me at least, D2 isn't a bad choice for general use as long as it's a reasonable price point.
And thats why you're the best EDC channel on CZcams, thankyou for this
FAR from it. But thank you so so much!!!!!!
Excellente ch a nnrl👌💖
Thanks!
I generally agree but steels like Magnacut are a fairly recent development. Knife steel chemistry has taken some serious leaps forward in a relatively short period. While I have 1095 knives I generally steer away from them due to corrosion. I live in NH and spend a lot of time on the ocean. For the last few years I've been using a few Spyderco Salt knives in H1 and LC200N. Both have been great remaining corrosion free with minimal care even with direct immersion. I'm encouraged by the move by many companies to better steels like Magnacut. I'm looking forward to to comparing the Magnacut in that environment. So to your point different steels have their application. And certainly some will become obsolete, ATS34 was at one time the rage. But I don't only view it as industry propaganda. Its progress. While certainly some companies are coming slower than others.
GREAT COMMENT🎉❤
I do this is true. To some extent. Though, a lot of peoples favorite steels aren't particularly new. Just not that many companies were willing to work with them before. 10v has been around since the 60's iirc, and s90v was around under the name 420v since the 90's. Though, heat treats on a lot of steels even from the custom makers tended to be softer back in the day, even for the guys that were always looking to use the latest and greatest like phil wilson. Who definitely was a pioneer for knife making imo.
I think its guys like him, and companies like spyderco that have really been the driver for the progress we have gotten for steel choices, and then guys like shawn houston, and larrin thomas, pushing geometry, heat treatments, and information about the steels themselves.
@@_BLANK_BLANK definitely
@@_BLANK_BLANK I agree. I was meaning more to the particle metallurgy steel types. I realize there are great steels that are not PM. To Erica’s point and to yours. I have had similarly styled knives with the same steel type perform very differently due to their geometry, edge angle, hardness etc. I think overall companies are realizing they were being left behind. I know there have been excellent small knife makers that are ahead of the curve. A lot of that due to their passion. But not everyone can afford them. So when I see companies like Buck going to S35VN with better treatment or now Case about to introduce their Bridge Line using CPM20CV it makes me happy. I love some of the old school designs I grew up with finally using better performing steels. I don’t need every knife I own to make me look like I’m part of the John Wick cast. Icing on the cake when they are US manufactured.
@@user-ml4ry8zi7o oh yeah, i dont disagree with what you said really, just adding my own thoughts on it.
The ones i mentioned from the past are actually pm steels, m390/20cv which you mentioned is another it came before 420v/s90v even.
Mostly on that part is just highlighting that the steels have been there, just the driving force from the consumer, and the makers wasn't yet. But over time, that has thankfully changed.
Taking longer to sharpen = harder to sharpen. Needing diamond stones = harder to sharpen. That's what people mean when they say harder to sharpen.
No. They’re generally referring to creating a burr and the deburring process being apparently difficult when it’s not generally.
I mostly agree with you. Tops and Esee are lasy. But i think you can make really good knives out of older steels when you treat them higher. 1095 is a different story to me. It is just a cheap bad steel and there are steels out there that perform better in EVERY aspect and don’t brake the bank. I think edge geometry and treatment are more important than steel (And i love my supersteels). If we as a market fix those to we can make quiet good knives even out of 8670 or 52100. something i like about esee and some other companies is the warranty. It encourages the user to really use the knives instead of babying it.
Something we need to talk about is that a lot of companies and males only use one or two steels. I think that is only to cut costs (what is understandable but bad for the customers. Just logistically speaking a chopper can not have the same steel as a filet knive while it is the ideal choice for both of them. I think we should be willing to spend more money on companies that work with like 4-6 different Steels. I think this should become a consideration in quality. Probably you could make a video about this topic.😊
I actually did! I hope you check it out. Thanks for your input!
I guess if they make the blades very thin & low HRC they’d eventually bent, maybe that’s the reason for thicker stock? Also a fairly thick blade and still be a phenomenal cutter depending on the geometry. So I don’t think all knives need to be either thick & higher HRC or the opposite.
Thanks for watching!
And as far as hardness, toughness, and geometry goes I really wonder where the current school of thought comes from. My grandfather was of the opinion - run the steel as hard as you can, if you need to worry about toughness you should be rethinking geometry first. And he got into knife making back in the 50’s.
Right?! Geometry cuts!!!
If something takes longer to do, that equates to fatigue, therefore directly leads to a higher level of difficulty. Which, makes it more difficult. Sharpening M4 is a worlds different from sharpening something like 8cr14mov or 14c28n. Also, I’ve been using knives in the field since I was 6. The higher the HRC, the more likely it is your edge will chip. I’d rather a bend, than a break. I respect your opinion though.
If you get tired sharpening… man up. End of story😂 also you’re not correct. If the blade has the correct geometry for the task- higher HRC does NOT equate to chipping. Just reiterating that because your comment is misinformation ❤
Also, you should send that brown knife to Calculated Survival. See if it can handle a wack. That’s another thing, the higher the HRC, the likelier it is you snap your blade when prying or batoning.
@@ericasedcYes it does equate to a higher likelihood of chipping. Literally nobody debates this except you. Lol… And I guarantee if we go free hand, I could sharpen 10 times the amount of knives you can. But regardless, it doesn’t matter… longer duration equates to more difficulty. That’s like saying “a 200 pound stone isn’t harder to roll than a 50 pound stone, it just takes longer.”. No offense, but do you realize how stupid sound now?😂
@@EDCPride no. Because I’m correct and you aren’t. And that’s ok! Geometry can override the chipping. And I’m sorry you do not know enough about how that works to realize that! This is what the video is for- educating people like you. 🥰
@@ericasedc Blade geometry plays a factor. But if you get two knives, same blade geometry, one with a lower HRC(50-55) and the other with a higher HRC(61-64), the blade with the higher HRC will also have a higher likelihood of chipping in comparison to the blade with a lower HRC. It’s okay that you think you’re right. The vast majority of this generation is delusional, you’re no different. 💛
agreed 100%
Cheers!!🎉
The biggest thing to think about when buying a supersteel knife is the cost.
here in New Zealand supersteel knifes are way too expensive.
That’s too bad. Here in the states they aren’t!
@@ericasedc your spoilt in that regard 😊
I'll just make do with my cheap Sandvik steel knives😏
I would like to test a edc fixed blade from very good knife co
Nice!
You’re sounding like Dr. Larrin Thomas now - that’s a good thing 🙂.
Oh FAR FROM IT! I am NOT a metallurgist/ DR / professional. These are simple facts ANYONE could find if they researched and had the right resources available to them! Hence why I am trying to add to that resource database! 🥰
Yeah some of these knives are thicker than my mom. They get almost as many rolls as she has too.
Haha!
To sharpen ,diamond stones or actual stones?
Listen to my videos to find out!
The same steel at a significantly higher hardness (such as 1095 at hrc 64 vs hrc 56) will have a lower yield strength. The steel industry has decades of testing data on this issue. Saying that "hard" vs "very hard" does not have strength trade-offs is not a great way to start this investigation.
Knife makers have run tests and shown that poor normalization before hardening leaves a very coarse grain structure that breaks easily.
Outdoors55 covered normalization very well with actual break tests. Poor strength due to excessive hardness often shows up as edge chipping.
You are right that we are seeking the best middle ground between soft rolling and ultra hard chipping. Steel will eventually fail. Controlling how it fails is what we are after. A few years ago there was a plague of over hardened D2 that chipped a lot and was really annoying to sharpen well. That got sorted out because the knife makers listened to complaints and adjusted their heat treats.
In bolt steel, they maximize strength some through the alloy choice and partly through heat treat - normalize, quench and tempering. The strongest bolts seem to peak out around 40 or 42 hrc. Of course they would rather see a bolt bend a little rather than snap, but in general, bolts in that type of steel are strongest around 40 hrc. Softer and they bend too easily and eventually shear or harder and they shear suddenly. They don't even try to harden them to hrc 50. For bolts, heavy on the toughness side of the equation, 40 hrc is the optimal middle ground.
Knife alloys may push the optimal hardness up a little, but I doubt you're ever going to get maximum strength at 65 hrc. Bolt engineering is very focused on maximizing a combination of tensile strength and yield strength. Identifying the critical strength types to achieve knife toughness would be a good issue to clarify. It is likely to be complicated, such as edge toughness from side loads versus spine toughness from prying might be totally different optimizations.
The metal forming industry has been working the hardness/toughness compromise for a long time in high speed and high temperature tool steels for die cutting and high speed cutters (e.g. M2, M3, M4, 3V, 4V, ...). They will have very good numbers on the hardness and toughness trade-offs.
Good field knives have emphasized avoiding edge chipping (over-hardness) because it is such a pain to fix edge chipping in the field. Way too much grinding to fix a chip. You can strop or steel an edge roll back straight pretty quickly if you practice it a few times. To fix a chip, I need at least a bunch of 150 through 400 grit media and then some 600-1200 to finish. That's a lot of sharpening gear for the field. I would rather take a knife that doesn't chip, a small 400 diamond stone/card and a small 1000 ceramic stone. I think TOPS runs them a little too soft at hrc 56 or so. Most other outdoor tough knife makers get by just fine with hrc 58-60. My choppers take more of a beating and may be 5160 at hrc 55 or so.
Luckily that’s not how I started the conversation, and if you watch the series you’ll understand what’s happening. Nothing should be 55 HRC end of story. Thanks for watching!
@@ericasedc I see. I thought this was the launch of the topic. I agree no knife should be 55 hrc. I'm not sure about axes. Many axes are made from 1045 or 1050. If you harden those alloys up to 58, they might chip like hell on a cold tree in the winter up north.
But I don't know it for a fact. It would be good to get actual data on such things. So you might have to dictate a better alloy like 5160 or so. So "should" becomes "you have to bring all your alloys up to my expectations", which is a stretch. There are budget axes for economic reasons. Big choppers are in between knives and axes in toughness requirements, but even then 55 seems too low.
We do have to keep pressure on knife manufacturers to maintain performance standards. For example, the Buck 119 Special used to be made from 440C, then in the early 80s they changed to 425M to reduce wear on their dies and grinders. Then after a couple years they changed to 420HC. So they slid down as low as people would put up with. We need to put up with less BS.
I bought one of the 425M models. The guy at the dedicated knife store (Merlo's Cutlery) claimed it was 440C, so even the retailer didn't know they had changed formulation. Just before OKC went under, they changed a bunch of their large knives from 1095 or 5160 to 1075, which was disappointing. Of course maybe they had a point about making knives where the customer wasn't covering the cost of production. I don't want to see any more U.S. knife makers go bankrupt. I've seen 3 major ones go under after I started collecting knives - Schrade, Camillus and now Ontario.
@@martinhafner2201 gotta hope for the best!
Erica my only magnacut knife came, and the entire edge rolled after cutting food on a cutting board and 63 HRC according to the manufacturer.
The edge was ground uneven so maybe that played a role in it just folding over,
That doesn’t sound good😮
Hopefully it gets better with sharpening. Sometimes factory edges are just that bad even with a good heat treat.
Sometimes they burn the edge during buffing/polishing at the factory. It happens on Moras now and then. Grind off the burnt layer with a mildly aggressive sharpening and you may hit the hard stuff.
I'm in my 40s and this is one of the videos I've seen
🥰
Mr Thomas stated that the most important aspect of edge retention was Edge Geometry. I've heard him state this on several interviews. I respect his knowledge, and it sounds like you are in this school of thought as well. Thanks for your time and this video.
From my usage and testing- I 100% believe geometry cuts. Geometry is most important. Thanks for watching!!!
Magacut is an awesome steel but for a budget alternative you probably can't beat DC53 tool steel
bingo. people focus exclusively on toughness when the real thing that matters is the edge stability. which requires a combination of toughness and hardness. prime example is something like m4, it’s a high hardness but also high toughness steel and thus is has great edge stability.
Yes!!!!
Well they don’t harden the 1095 because it’s more chippy when hard probably. I think there’s definitely some method to the madness even if they don’t have it all figured out yet
No. It’s because it’s easiest to grind when soft. Easy to grind means less abrasives(belts). Less belts means saving money. It’s alllllll a marketing tactic to save themselves money. But shhhh haha