Why Canon Matters
Vložit
- čas přidán 14. 04. 2021
- Living in an age of endless reboots, remakes and reimaginings, its becoming increasingly hard to tell what's official canon and what isn't. But why does it matter? Who cares about canon? Well, let's take a closer look and find out.
- Zábava
".. It needs to be 'more modern'."
"No. It doesn't."
Truer words were never spoken, mate.
@Sanguine You mean like King Lear (2018) movie? I love Anthony Hopkin but it's unwatchable.
Your second point is basically book burning by the fascist, ironic coming from people who think and yell they are against it but they just a pure form of it..
I guess : "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.".
Translation: "it needs to be post-modern."
It needs to be.....good. That's what these people don't get. They just want to sell politics.
I grew up listening to angsty political hardcore punk as a kid, but I grew disinterested with the "It's not about the music, it's about the *message*!" focus and got into other music genres that were more about writing memorable songs that stick around with you. The past 10 years or so we have been bombarded with activist screeds masquerading as films and often appropriating an entire beloved series or franchise to do so.
@Sanguine Student of theater here. There is a major difference between studying Shakespeare and performing Shakespeare. To study Shakespeare is to study theatrical history. To perform Shakespeare is to forgo MILLIONS of other, more modern and relevant plays that could have been staged instead, just to... do it? I guess? The only good Shakespeare adaptations, in my opinion, have been the ones that find a way to put formerly sidelined characters in the spotlight or tell their stories from a more modern perspective. That way, we are seeing firsthand how we have evolved as a people and are continuing to learn from history.
Now, I believe the same is applied to movies. To make Star Wars interesting in the modern age, you can’t just keep doing what they did in the original trilogy. You need to explore the force, the Jedi order, the political development of the galaxy to make it interesting. That’s why the Disney sequels fail. They try to perform Shakespeare as it was performed in the 1500s, which is boring, because Shakespeare plays are incredibly boring compared to most of the stuff that’s come out of the theatre since.
So yes, learning history is important. But don’t repeat it. We don’t need more James Bond doing what Bond has always done, just as we don’t need more Shakespeare plays. We’ve been there, done that, and we need to move on.
@@nickg5341 What is wrong with "just to.....do it?" especially if the people involved have never done it? It may be a actors first time in a Shakespeare play why deny them the experience? There may be audience members who have never seen a play by Shakespeare and just by watching will see and hear first hand how we have "evolved as people". If you "tell stories from a more modern perspective" you alter speech, clothing, etiquette, etc. to modern standards and remove any possibility for people to see "first hand how we have evolved as people" To perform Shakespeare as it was done in the 1500's may be boring but it highlights how theater, language and etiquette was during Shakespeare life.
I do not think anyone is asking for history to repeat itself, just because you and I may think there is no need for more James Bond movies or Shakespeare's plays and that
"we have been there done that" they will be made if there is a market for them. Our choice is not to go see them not to deny others the choice.
If people want participate In something they think is more "modern and relevant" go ahead and create it but don't paint the Mona Lisa with a nose ring and proclaim it is a more "modern perspective" . That's my opinion.
People think they're buying a fandom when they purchase an IP. They often forget that the fandom comes with expectations.
They obviously didn't get that memo when they made the Dark Tower movie. Good God, talk about shitting all over the fans... :(
Fandom is like authority.
Must be earned, can't be bought.
@@TH3F4LC0Nx You just had to remind me about that trash, yikes.
They buy up the original property because they're too lazy and untalented to create something new, and then they're like: "What? You mean I have to do just as much work to learn about and then write something good within this established setting? Screw that!"
Marvel knew that. That's why they're so successful.
"I could cover the Mona Lisa with red paint and people would pay millions for it, but that doesn't make my painting any good. The only reason my painting would sell is because they value the foundation it was built on, not the painting itself."- Joshua Evans
Smart
"Beauty lay not in the thing but in what the thing symbolised." - Thomas Hardy
@@fomorians that's how we got to modern art
And because 2022 was such a banger someone might actually wind up doing that since idiot children trained by the evil rich to push an agenda basically did just that lol
spot on
Something that still bothers me till this day is Anakin’s lightsaber which shouldn’t be in ANYONE’S possession at this point: it plummeted down a 100ft shaft in Empire, then 30+ years later it’s somehow in Maz’ possession in mint condition, then it literally blows up by Rey & Kylo, then it’s magically back in mint condition in Rise of Skywalker. Like, wtf????
And then a sertain NOT skywalker mary sue buries it into coarse rough and irritating S A N D that gets everywhere
Doesn't it fall off Cloud City, which floats above the Gas Giant Bespin? Those things have no ground; retrieval is impossible, and the saber would have been destroyed.
@@tastyfalcon1788 They're talking about Anakin's Lightsaber, not Luke's.
I haven't watched the original trilogy in a while, so please remind me: which scene was it where Darth Vader lost his light saber? I remember the "I am your father" scene where Luke lost his, but DV?
@@dorderre they are not talking about darth vader's lightsaber they are talking about anakin's aka the one that falls with Luke's hand
“It’s kind of disappointing to realize that your favourite stories and characters are only ever one corporate merger away from being wiped out of existence.”
Amen, brother.
You can't just... enjoy the material that they were in already? Ya'know, make a "head-cannon"?
@@jesser1070 not when instead of adapting it they give shitty stories while pretending they don’t exist. Fuck that
@@randalthekidd7006 If you really wanna just tread old grounds, you can just watch the original. I feel like it's better to tell new stories. Also, once again, make a head-cannon if you don't like the new stuff.
100% with ya on that one.
@Schlomo Baconberg yup
"By all means, create your own characters and worlds that tick as many boxes as you want and see how they stand on their own merits but stop trying to reshape the ones that already exist..." so true. This should be carved on a stone and displayed on Hollywood Boulevard!
But that's hard !!!!! easier to just say captain kirk . Ok let's make him black woman that is half klingon and half vulcan
Instead of just writing your own black klingon/vulcan that is first female captain of enterprise.
This point is the most relevant. Just make new characters, see how they go. Hijacking characters I like in order to completely change them and use them to tell me I’m a piece of shit, means now you have nothing to sell me.
Don't forget anime too! Even they are being ruined with this stuff!
@@ArcaniaSkyPirateDen9516 wait, really? Can you give some examples? I think anime industry is going quite okay (other than those rinse and repeat isekai harem animes)
I can picture a world where a character is written that checks all the boxes and uses their strengths to do something that's actually important, genius, humbling, logical, relevant to human nature or fulfill their role in a way that doesn't make me want to turn off my brain. Hell I may actually be able to empathize with that character and understand them and their point of view. Anime seems to be mostly disconnected from this problem... for now.
Cannon is important because it sets the rules for your universe and ensures your story is consistent. Otherwise, you'll have stories in wich anything can happen at anytime and nothing really matters.
The same people that say, "It's just a fake movie dude, calm down." Are the same people that cheat at board games, or sports, and say, "It's just a game dude, calm the f' down."
Nothing is sacred to these people, except the almighty $$$, and even that isn't sacred anymore.
And even Rick and Morty where Rick keeps telling you it's the case that doesn't really work that way :)
@@wolfrainexxx every work of fiction nedds inner validation at least, otherwise there will be nothing at stake amd at any time the hero can pull out some crap to defeat an op villain. It just ain't fun
Which is what has happened.
@@wolfrainexxx Canon is actually good for the studio, it means it's easier to milk nostalgia. It's why Andor/Mandalorian were so well received, it's why people love football, hell it's why the MCU was so popular. The problem is that the studio doesn't understand art and hire babbling idiots who aren't intelligent enough to even understand canon.
I’ve also never understood why we must change established characters and make them ethnically or sexually different. Why use someone else’s work??? Why take credit for someone else’s legacy only to destroy it?
Make your own characters. I’ve had people tell me that’s it’s what’s right or even necessary for equality? Really?! Because no one is capable of personally creating strong diverse characters? Isn’t that an insult to the very force you’re backing?
Why is the sexual orientation of a character in a sci fi film so important in any case? This isn’t pornography. Go somewhere else if you want a sex scene.
The funny thing is there are writers who create content for gays and lesbians, because they themselves like to read such stories.
Why is nowadays everybody forced to like such storys?
@@jerry3790 Absolutely!
George Takei stood up to JJ and said something along the lines of, "that wasn't how Sulu was written. He is imaginary, he is straight. I am real, I'm the gay one. Write a new gay character if you must pander, but leave established characters alone."
And it's just factually untrue that there aren't great roles for non-white actors. There are actors who respect themselves enough not to take these shitty race washing roles; Lawrence Fishburne, Morgan Freeman, Samuel L. Jackson, Denzel Washington. And you've got Jordan Peele turning out bangers in the horror genre. These roles are being written, these stories exist, and they're great, and they're not going anywhere.
The people who are just trying to paint their political agenda onto established franchises after ripping out all the guts of the thing are just hacks; plain and simple. Bad story tellers that don't understand the craft and can't take negative criticism, so they shut it down when they're in charge. Clearly nobody is telling these people what they need to hear, which is, "Look, this movie is shit, why are we making this? We're blowing the studio's money with this project. It doesn't make sense and it's nothing but pandering propaganda to an audience that wasn't interested in the IP to begin with. Making a worse version of it won't bring them in just because you refused to hire any white actors."
I don't know how they keep getting control of these film projects, and I wonder how much longer these film studios will continue to swallow down the lies that're being peddled to them. It's to the detriment of their wallets, and we all know that's what they care about most.
When Disney announced the Star Wars books weren't canon, I thought "Great! They've clearly got a very specific plan for the upcoming sequels." I was an idiot.
It took a lot of circle jerking to produce a trilogy less compelling than the prequels. I literally cannot watch them. They feel like The Holiday Special II, III, and IV.
No, they are idiots. What kind of morons wouldn’t have a plan with a sequel trilogy? KK, JJ and RJ.
When I heard they are making a sequel trilogy, I was excited to see Jaina Solo on the big screen. But then they de-canonized it.
@@bryede Right? They are shockingly bad. I grew up with the prequel movies. They are hammy and silly but they do enough things well enough that it still has that "Star Wars" magic.
Yes, you totally were. You should've seen their moves with Marvel before that. Cuz it was a red flag.
Crimson even.
"How does it feel to have lived long enough to see all your favorite franchises go down in flames?" - Rich Evans
"Pretty good, actually."
I am still hopeful to see my stories come to life and take the place of those fallen.
They say that nothing grows, until the oak has hit the ground.
But Captain Kirk had sex with Wonder Woman.....................
“Feels great......”
*wraps lips around Glock
My grandma was the biggest Doctor Who fan I ever knew. She was a round, sweet, old lady. She could play the clarinet and piano, write her own music, and cook. She was a nurse, loved people and animals, and loved fantasy and Science Fiction books/movies.
I took care of her with my family for three years and after she died I watched a David Tenet Doctor Who and some Tom Baker is when I got into the franchise. and when I saw the the first female Dr. I thought that this was shit.
Anyway I wrote a little fan fiction making the first female Dr. based off my grandma.
and that’s what I believe the first female Doctor Who should’ve been. A sweet old lady, like a grandma.
I love this idea. Maybe she would have a bit of Miss Marple in her, too.
@@phoebegilliland8897a touch of sass and class? Pray tell me more!
Galaxy Quest is not only a good movie, not only is it an exceptional parody of a famous science fiction franchise, it's also a commentary on the concept of canon and how emotionally invested fans can get in their favorite movies, TV shows, books, comic books, games, etc.
When they try smugly gaslighting you with, "Why does it matter if we change their race/gender/sexuality/ideals/etc?" I always respond with, "If it doesn't matter, then why do it?"
I wish humans would tell corporations that they don't matter to us.
I always respond with: "if that's how you feel I'll just keep my money then" ;-)
Outside of fiction I'm on your side though.
Try baiting them like that on twitter
remind me of the time when Neil Druckman answered about why he changed the gender of Nathan Drake son, Anita comment about his gender and he say, : " oh i didnt think about that." And he say it changed nothing at all so he swap the gender. I mean, it kinda silly, they acted like being female is something brillian or someshit but being a character dont. And if nothing change, by do it? They cant admit they wanted to please the minority.
As drinker says, they can go make their own stuff. The left is so infuriating. If their ideas are so amazing, let them create and proof it. No, they have to destroy everything.
I find it crazy that in the last 10 years, I have completely stopped caring about Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who. All things I loved as a kid.
Same here. I still love the classics, but all the new content is like the face melting scene from indiana Jones. Another franchise they ruined!
Discovered the Clone Wars animated series last year, it brought back Stars Wars for me. Star Trek/Dr Who are still lost.
I know kids that won't even watch movies, maybe the older generation are the last moviegoers
Add Terminator, Aliens, Jurassic Park, Batman, 007 to that list.
Aye. I now live in fear of someone like Kathleen Kennedy, Alex Kurtzman or Chris Chibnall getting their grubby paws on Stargate.
Its... really not difficult to write a story that includes a diverse cast without pandering. Just make the damn characters, don't change the characters and make your entire marketing scheme to be around their identity. I don't care that Rey is a woman, I care that 90% of the marketing and discourse around her is that she's a woman.
I don’t care that she is a woman. I don’t care much, even, that they make everything about her being a woman. I hate that she is not only a MarySue, but a MarySue with no personality. She has no flaws, no growth, no inner turmoil, no anything. She has earned nothing, but has everything. She is better at everything than anyone without needing to learn it or practice it.
It’s not only her (lack of) character that I hate, though. It’s the whole story.
It seems the toughest riddle in the world for them to tell the difference between a diverse character, and a character that happens to be diverse. And in case it's not clear it's the second one we want, when no one gives a damn whatever trait they have because that's equality (and that doesn't mean you can't represent some of the difficulties that can come with their traits but it doesn't define them).
Like, take a character who has cancer. It can be very handicapping in their every day life and influence them and their decisions, but it's not WHO they are. I really don't get what's so hard, maybe these people lack empathy (putting yourself in other people's shoes) or something
I'm pretty sure that's why Strange World failed.
The "F- it I just don't care about it anymore" line is EXACTLY how I feel about Star Wars now, despite being a lifetime mega-fan.
Same here. $adly, these companies don't care much that we oldheads have lost interest. What they care more about now is scoring points with _"Modern Audiences"_ - primarily younger fans who don't care about the OT, and whose lifetime of mega-fandom (i.e., $pending) is *_ahead_* of them, not behind.
Disney is so confident on its new Star Wars canon, they're about to cancel it and recanonize the Expanded Universe.
If they do i would give them another chance... but i don't see that happening.
@@brettloo7588 if they do they'll fuck that up too
The first thing they need to do is to fire Kathleen Kennedy. Until that happens, I'll be avoiding all Disney Soy Wars properties.
is this an April fool?
I will believe it when I see it.
"Fuck it. I just don't care about this anymore." Yep... When I was a teenager, if someone had told me that we'd get to a point were there were multiple Terminator films I'd never watch, a Ghostbusters movie I'd never see, and an entire Star Trek series that I'd abandon after just a few episodes, I'd never believe you. But here we are, and I'm oddly indifferent at this point.
If somebody told me as a kid that I would completely abandon Star Wars...
Star Wars...meh. Whatever.
I feel like only at the apex of civilization do people create art that must stand on its own regardless of the cost. At all other times we just milk that shit for every dollar we can get.
Our optimism of youth destroyed by the truth of adulthood.
If somebody years ago told me that i would never watch anything Star Wars related i would call them crazy yet here i am :(
This happened with Star Wars for me. I won't spoil it for others, but I just don't like the new trilogy and it dampened my enthusiasm hugely for any new star wars media.
I started watching doctor who during Tennant's last season. My mom was big into it since she started with Tom Baker, so we recorded all of New Who and watched it all from Eccleston through to where we were in weekly releases.
We made sure to watch the new episode every week, I kept track of new seasons and new doctors coming down the line. We were heartbroken to see Tennant go, but we both loved Matt Smith. I absolutely loved Peter Capaldi, she liked him less than Smith, but we still watched it every week, religiously. It was a great show and while she was bothered somewhat by Bill, I didn't think she was that bad.
Then we got Jodie Whittaker. It may have been that I was nearly finishing up high school, but I think it was just that the show was horrible, but suddenly we didn't care about the show anymore. I tried to give the BBC the benefit of the doubt. We watched almost the whole first season of Jodie, but it took much longer than our usual weekly viewings. We never went back for more.
Now I'm not sure I could ever enjoy new episodes of Doctor Who again. Maybe I've grown out of Doctor Who, but I doubt it since I still have all the seasons of New Who on Blu-ray and I watch them pretty regularly. This show was so damn good and in one season it went from exceptional to just... bad. Real shame, but I guess that's how things go now.
G'day Andrew, please let me tell you a little secret. No matter how old you are you never 'grow out' of a well written story that's played on TV or computer stream or even written and drawn in the original comic books. Really good stories will stay with you forever.
I'm nearly 70 and I'll never forget the very first episodes of 'Dr Who'. Old Bill Hartnell had made a good career as a character actor playing police sergeants, or army sergeants and other types of authority figures.
He was good value even in the cheesiest episodes with cheap sets that wobbled if anyone touched them. Bill Hartnell didn't really want to do a 'kids' program but the job was only intended as a temporary fill-in and he needed the work.
Less than half way through 'The Doctor' started to get fan mail from children and some adults. Bill Hartnell was really chuffed and there's a point in the first series when you can see he's bought into the concept as his acting and focus on the part clearly, increases.
Well, before the 'temporary' program was over the BBC had decided to keep it going. Sadly, Mr Hartnell was not a well man so, when he had to leave the show for health reasons one of the clever, original writers came up with the concept of 'regeneration'. It suited the sad circumstances behind the scenes and it actually became the secret to the show's longevity.
When you think about it 'regeneration' was a unique plot device and kept the tight group of writers and producers, plus whole crews employed and involved in a series that looked like it would run forever. Well, it almost did.
What the latest 'showrunner' did was run the entire story concept into the ground. It was invented, 'created' by people infinitely more talented than the present bunch of producers and writers.
In a story arch that routinely goes between the past and the future, 'Dr Who' can never get 'old'. For a long time the writers, producers and actors just got better and better as time passed.
As the show became more widely popular, around the world, the sets, the story concepts and the production values could only improve. And they did. Of all the science fiction types of programs 'Dr Who' is still unique.
It's true in life and especially in the entertainment industry; if it's not broken; don't 'fix' it.
After all the decades in which I've been a devout fan of 'The Doctor' I can tell you I was never, ever concerned about 'The Doctor's' gender or sexual preferences and all of 'The Doctors' I got to know and admire as characters, never spoke down to people or lectured them on how to live their lives, except 'The Doctor' was always a staunch promoter of peace, non-violence and the instant acceptance of any species no matter how different they might be.
How can a character based on such philosophies become 'out of date'?
The fact of a future 'Doctor' just happening to be a female was not a great issue to any of the show's hard core fans.
It only became a 'thing' when an ill-advised casting error was made. Faced with a female 'Doctor' the writers also went all screwy and imagined that, somehow, this female 'Doctor' had to 'right' all the incorrectly perceived 'wrongs' of the previous 12 male 'Doctors'. It was lunacy, pointless and preachy. That's about the point where entertainment and escapism just flies out the window. All you've got left is a 'social studies' update lecture on the 'naughtiness' of being male.
No one today who was working on the 're-jigged' 'Dr Who' bothered to look at the long history of extremely strong female characters in 'Dr Who'. So, when tasked with writing for a female 'Doctor' all the strong female characteristics, created by superior writers decades ago, were forgotten or, worse still, deliberately left out.
Andrew, I don't think I've ever been so genuinely disappointed and saddened by the 'gutting' of a great character as we have seen in recent years.
They just didn't get it that it was the inbuilt diversity of the different 'Doctors' that kept the program alive for around 50 years. It's a great pity. But we've got all the 'Dr Who' DVDs that one can get and we'll have to be happy with those.
Cheers, and all the best. Bill H.
Damn thats sad. Never watched it but that's depressing they ruined a series you loved so much
I'm glad I've never watched Dr Who...so they couldn't ruin it for me. But they've managed to ruin just about every other franchise I loved, most notably Star Wars and Star Trek. I quit Star Wars after the shitshow that was "Last Jedi". And thanks to reviewers who've suffered so that I don't have to, I know that Kurtzman Trek isn't worth wasting my time on.
Bill makes a good point though: we can still enjoy the good stuff that came before. I recently watched the entire original remastered Star Trek on Blu-Ray...and it was glorious. Even better than I remembered.
Happened to me with the new "matrix" (which no matter what you say, I'll never consider canon). I fell like trying to spread "the message" has only ruined movies. Makes me sad :(
Here, here! It never happened, as far as I'm concerned.
I never even heard that they made a new matrix so I'm content in my blissful ignorance.
Sjws will never be happy until everyone is just as miserable as them
The new one is bad because it was directed by women...
(Sarcasm)
I hate how continuity is like an allergy to writers nowadays. Like, trying to stay consistent with a fictional world‘s logic is too hard, so we can make up whatever bullshit we want and excuse it by saying, “It’s just magic, bro. Ain’t gotta explain shit.”
Supernatural had no continuity. The plot made less and less sense as it went, lol. I'm noticing that problem with lots of shows.
@@theramentumbleweed2523 That happens when you have long runnning series. Eventually you ran out of ideas so you start retconing stuff, bringing dead people back etc.
As Cinematic Excrement liked to say "Continuity is NOT a polite suggestion". Unfortunately too many new "writters" didn't get that lesson in school and think they can get away without it ......
because that requires a lot of planning. Plus they're always working on someone else's creation nowadays, so you would need to actually understand it in order to do a coherent continuation (whether into the past or the future)
Actually, continuity can itself become a problem for continuity. During Rick Bermans time in charge of VOY writers had to ensure that at the end of the episode no permanent change had happened or if so, that it had been reset. That was to assure that no story created by one writer could become a continuity problem for another. You can effectivly show most of the epsiodes of VOY in any order and wouldn't know any better. Only noticable major differences were Kes being swapped for 7of9. Downside of that: actions had no consequences, characters could not grow.
Every franchise has it's natural lifecycle:
1. Inspired creator makes something classic
2. Golden age
3. Creator loses touch, retires or dies.
4. Corporate control: churn out uninspired copies
5. Death
6. Weirdos with bad ideas take over and turn it into activism. Death becomes preferred.
Man, that last one was Oppenheimer level commentary.
1 - 'I am become death, destroyer of worlds'.
2 - 'Death becomes preferred'.
Intense.
That is pretty much the reality.
I have come to a point in life where I have seen that so much, I don't bother becoming a fan of anything. It all sucks, retroactively.
@@peterbelanger4094 Yeah or you consistently hold a small thought in the back of your head that at any minute things could go to shit, woke style. I'm just waiting for the last two episodes of Falcon and Winter Soldier to explode with political correctness.
OK bro
4b. Corporations try to build the previous success by using formulaic recipes and trying to implement elements of other successful shows, with the desperate attempt to get more -money- viewers, but only alienating all sides.
You hit the nail there. It's "much needed escapism".
The political money behind all this doesn't want us to be able to exist in a world where they don't hold absolute power. Not even in our own imaginations.
The first time I experienced this feeling of what I can only call loss, was when they decided make Mr. Phelps the bad guy in the first Mission Impossible film. I had grown up with the TV series in the 60's and could only think of the character as a hero. The experience soured me so much that I have not watched any other movie in the series.
"Yes. But the fan base are fans. And they like the source material because it’s the source material they like. So if you do something else, you risk alienating the fans on a monumental scale. It’s not Batman if he’s now a news reporter in a yellow trenchcoat with a pet bat." - Neil Gaiman
No batman needs to be a transgendered black woman
@@TheEpicDuck23 in a wheelchair with a lust for chubby and chunky blue haired whales.
April O'Neil is Batman?
@@TheEpicDuck23 lesbian black woman surely? Or is this the realisation that they didn't go woke enough with Batwahmen?
@@romarudarkeyes It's Batperson now.
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
― George Orwell, 1984
Next your going to tell me wrong think is currently a thing, oh wait... :( That's a scary and factual quote for sure.
@@flipneleanor7370 yep originally the narrative was that this crap is the new canon. Now they are retconning everything so that it always was canon because they have realised they couldn't write a good storyline if there subscription to The Guardian depended on it!
Sounds exactly like what the Radical Left is doing to America.
To be fair, the JJ Trek films were NEVER going to 'unwrite' the old Star Trek timeline - more exist alongside it.
Does that work with all prior Trek time travel logics? Not really, but they often didn't align with each other, logic wise.
@@chrissonofpear1384 true but I always saw those films as just a lazy reset button where they could bank on the popularity of the franchise without actually putting in the work of getting it to make sense in the preexisting story. Rather than redoing everything to fit a new ideological narrative.
These observations are so true. When the MCU started I was so excited about the idea of a shared universe with so many stars and things. Now most of these franchises have gotten so disjointed and unruly that it’s hard to keep up with everything, even as a super fan. It’s gotten to the point where I actually look forward to a simple one-off movie with good characters and story, that I can just enjoy and then go about my life. 🤷🏻♂️
When modern studios take over some successful fictional universe, they don't do it out of respect for the story telling which had been done. They do it with a sense of outrage that it has been so successful even though it didn't check all the boxes that they felt it should check. They don't want to build upon what's already there, they want to tear it down and *replace* it. It's not enough to just ignore it and build their own universes by writing new stories. They have to destroy the universes that exist, and make those fans feel bad for liking the original story.
*"It's geeks who really make or break a TV show or movie or videogame"*
~Stan Lee
Stan Lee was too good for this world
It sounds so fucking obvious, and yet companies nowadays still haven’t caught on.
It's funny because Stan Lee almost ruined Marvel Comics so many times over it's life. The biggest I think was him declining the rights to STAR WARS, even though George Lucas offered it to Stan Lee for free! Marvel was near financial collapse at the time, and George Lucas wanted to help spread word of his new fantasy movie saga by giving the comic book rights to Marvel, but Stan Lee refused. Smarter people within the organization saw the opportunity as a golden one however and got it made despite Stan Lee's protestations and it became one of the best selling comic books for years and saved Marvel Comics. So if you really want to thank someone for saving something for the geeks, thank George Lucas!
@Ludwig Paiste But the Prequel Trilogy is amazing
@@grantbridge22 This is where the fun begins....
My granddaughter and I are making a fan fiction about what happened to the 7 dwarves after Snow White and it was very important to her that the characters and the backstory be exactly right, which means a 5 year old girl understands this stuff better than show runners and executives making millions of dollars
There was only 4 dwarfes after the harsh winter an the loss of their beloved snow whites song who now lives in the princes castle... as their hearts grew cold, war would be waged, all the remaining dwarves chieftains came together like never before.... this is how warcraft came to be.. lol haha
@@peskylogicchillinsky6007Futube interesting theory but in my granddaughter's version they go on an epic adventure to rescue girl dwarves I'll stick to that
@@johntabler349 That's pretty based. Like The Hobbit but not boring.
@@akwardshark7621 a five-year-old's imagination is never boring
Cute!
"By all means, create your own characters and stories"
exactly!! THANK YOU!!!
George Lucas always had the final say on Canon in Star Wars. It wasnt perfect, had some contradictions and issues but he filled an important role that other franchises didn't have.
Without that single person to have the final say, essentially the head gatekeeper, Disney Canon is contradicting itself already and is adding things that just don't fit.
Lucas just washed his hands of the whole EU, and created different levels of canon, with only G-canon or proper actual canon basically just being (the most recent version of) the movies and the Clones Wars show.
That’s why Tolkien’s mythos was such a masterpiece. It was made by one person with one vision, and none of it was corporate. Star Wars even before Disney was still pretty convoluted, and Disney … didn’t exactly improve the situation.
Fan fiction over the last few years have been becoming more true to the source material, while the official releases are becoming more like fan fiction.
Everytime my boyfriend writes fanfiction he takes it super seriously and considers timelines and if things are in character with the characters personality etc etc and I swear there's more care put towards doing justice to characters by the fans than it is the corporations owning the franchises
Ain’t that the truth!
Most of the time the serious writers also have their own story in a back burner and fanfiction is just a means to practice, at least from the few people I follow.
True. I've read some fan fiction that was far better than what "professional" writers put out, across all genres. That's why I don't give much credence to the idea that writing a new Star Wars or whatever is hard. All you have to do is hire a half-dozen super-fans and they'll come up with a storyline that'd blow people away. Sure, they'd have to be wrangled by professional script writers and the like, but the fans will keep things nailed down tight because they love that universe and want to see it prosper.
@@pizzawashere8940 Fanfiction writers are passionate about the story, characters and universe they're writing about.
I think it can all be summed up as: "If they keep breaking the toys then no one will want to play with them anymore."
exactly, keeping with the toy theme, may I add: it's like breaking the toy and telling the kids "all the pieces are still there, all the screws, and plastic, and rubber... PLAY WITH THAT"
@@rowanblithe71 yes, and then saying IT'S BETTER THIS WAY! and you are terrible if you don't agree.
"why won't you share your toys with me?"
"Because last time you painted it bright pink, removed half of the working parts, and permaglued a cuddly toy to it. Then told me it was my fault that I didn't like it!"
That's the point. These are mostly boys and men oriented franchises, yanno, with positive role models. We can't have that. Crush it. No matter the cost. The idiots running the companies has no idea what vipers they have employed
I never had a problem with others "Playing with my favorite toy," but I did mind if they destroyed it.
Wow. This was so much more than the short bit of entertainment I was looking for. This was a deep and well argued defense of storytelling integrity.
Drinker, you sealegged socrates of story analysis, you've done it again
Love this comment
@lauracollins4195 thanks.
As a writer myself who loves stories... it really hurts me to see stories used against the messages and purposes that the story exists to portray. The vision that it was created with should be respected by all who did not create it and are trusted with its future
The eight deadliest words a storyteller can hear: "I don't care what happens to these people".
As someone who has a ton of characters and plan on them on a story. That will destroy me.
Oh Gos
@Josh C You've failed to make the reader care for your characters. Which is like the whole point you wrote the story around them most of the time
or say
Most shows follow Lost's example; kill off ALL the characters you love, refuse to kill off your villains until AFTER they've LONG outlived their welcome, and then, in the end, the only people left alive are the ones you don't care about.
“It can be terribly dangerous to meet other people expectations.” -David Bowie
“Don’t listen to your critics, listen to your fans.” -Michael Scott
I think the sweet spot is somewhere in between. You can never expect to live up to others expectations but you never forget who got you where you are.
What's important is to have consistency more than anything. Be creative and try new and unexpected things, whilst not dumping on everything that came before. If we were to compare; Knights of the Old Republic II vs The Last Jedi
They both try to tell the same core story and subvert the typical Star Wars themes, and try to be very introspective, asking big questions about the SW universe and its factions, but Kotor builds upon what is laid out, it challenges it whilst respecting it and maintaining character and lore consistency, TLJ tears everything down and direspects it and has no regard for logic or consistency.
The quote from Michael Scott is a catch 22, because the fans 'are' the critics today.
That last comment is pretty much the reason the old Top Gear was so successful. In an interview on 60 Minutes, Clarkson pretty much said that they get all this mail about how they’re doing this wrong, they’re offending this group, etc.. that they don’t pay attention because the show wouldn’t be what it is.
As a Star Wars fan especially of the EU, I realize that starting in could be daunting. But I loved talking about it and on more than 1 occasion I helped guide a young Padawan on which books to start with and which to wait on or skip altogether
"By all means, create your own characters and worlds that tick as many boxes as you want and see how they stand on their own merits but stop trying to reshape the ones that already exist..." This right here! 😎🥃👌
"Fuck it, I just don't care about this anymore" sums up my feelings about Star Trek and Star Wars these days.
Same with me, at least about Star Wars.
Star Trek still seems to have some redeeming qualities. The MMO is pretty awesome, too.
Life is too short to waste on it.
Amusing how basically JJ fucked both those franchises. A reminder that all Star Trek fans lowkey knew that Star Wars was going to get fucked up, but nobody would've believed them back then.
At this point, I just kind of want to see how much they’ll burn.
And all Disney and Marvel, etc...
"Fuck it. I don't care about this anymore." I've said this far too many times in recent years
That line really hit home with me. It's exactly how I feel about modern Star Trek.
Unfortunately, that's possibly what they want you to say/feel.
It's either:
1) I don't care about this anymore
or
2) Okay fine, I accept the "new" order of things
Either way, they win. But not if we keep fighting.
@@Scrobes I hope you win that fight. I won't stay where I'm not wanted, and there are still artists out there who truly care about their craft. I'll do my best to find them and support them. Disney won't get another dime from me, and I grew up throwing money at George Lucas like his name was Tatiana.
I feel you bro...
Yeah me too, most recently about Doctor Who sadly.
It's like something I saw elsewhere: if everything is canon, nothing is.
Canon is also the only thing approaching an objective standard for evaluating the story as it progresses because it sets the rules for the progression. The cardinal sin of any storyteller is having to retcon something they said or did previously, and it's a telltale sign of an awful storyteller.
“That’s not how the characters were written”
This is spot on. I completely agree!
I'd like you're comment, that would ruin the 69 upvotes though. Have a comment instead
And if someone wants to write a new original character that's different from the original, then that's fantastic!! Just DON'T change the existing one...
@@froJoss Exactly! If these lazy bastards actually tried to create a brand new character, they could make them as shitty (sorry......diverse) as they wanted. All we ask is that they leave established characters alone.
James bond's character traits is literally being a womanizer, how can they expect a woman to try to fit into the same character?
Just make a new one... Don't replace what we have with your shitty agenda
"Fuck it I just don't care about this anymore"
This line applies to so many things nowadays. So much has been ruined. It's quite sad honestly
That's my current relationship with Dragon Ball...
I thought the Battle Angel Alita was pretty decent. if they can make a good sequel, oh wait! Disney owns that now too ..,.... FUCK! (Sits back down)
Well we can all blame the pink haired gorillas
I feel you, man. So many things I used to love have been goofed up, it's quite sad indeed.
Same. Magic the gathering is getting like that for me which really sucks. Video games too
You touch on something deeply insightful here.
Just as Postmodern philosophy argues that all we know are a myriad of different, personal narratives, and the various critical theories stretch that to the limits of aggressive alternative but often illogical narratives, so we are now seeing those expectations reflected in a non-canon of previously established characters and worlds.
It’s all about an expectation that any & every narrative can & must be subverted in service of The Narrative.
Yup. Who would've thought that relativistic weirdoes would have no respect for the canon of anything?
This was rather interesting and insightful. Thank you.
I hadn't really considered that cannon is one of the central unifying elements that help define a community of fans, though it feels obvious when you take a step back to consider it.
The humor makes the Drinker fun. The intelligence and clarity makes the Drinker great. Thanks!
Huzzah!
@MB Couldn't agree more!!!
This analysis was spot on!!
Well said! 🤗
Yeah but he liked the Snyder Cut. So... maybe not so intelligent.
Wiping out or retconning a beloved IP is like finding out your Dad died and your Mom is already dating someone else and then expecting you to love new Dad as much as real Dad without even getting to know him. If you even want to.
while it is possible to love a new father the same can not really be said about Disney SW. People must be given the opportunity to choose and like the stepfather, Disney must prove themselves first.
And new dad doesnt even try to be a good guy, he just straight starts beating your ass on day 1
Brutal but accurate
That's a spot on analogy. Well done.
Makes you wonder what else has been retconed in real history... 🤔
The thing with diversity is it’s not even a bad thing. It’s amazing to have a diverse cast and characters. We don’t have to go back and change characters who are already in place, just create new characters that represent their own motives and lifestyles. It really isn’t that hard.
Okay, maybe it's just me, but does anyone else feel as if the joy of "the movies" is that we can give ourselves totally to the experience, and then walk away feeling as if we'd had the best dream we can remember. No, it wasn't real, but the feelings were. The lows were real, the highs were real, and the characters were "realish" (we cared about them) even if the story wasn't real. We look back on it with those emotions still fresh in our hearts.
So, let's say that in 1983, the Washington Redskins won the Superbowl, and the Philidelphia 76's won the NBA championship. I say that because that's what I remember. Now, let's say that I look back on that with great fondness, but that doesn't matter because someone else wants to paint a different picture. They buy the NFL, and the NBA, and in their record books, Sacramento won the NBA championship, and the Dallas Cowboys won the Superbowl. They say, "we own the rights, so we decide what is and is not." Xcuse me? Doesn't ownership entail stewardship? If you can't handle the history, don't make it a mystery.
I remember when Simon Pegg was all giddy getting his rocks off going: "See, we made Sulu gay, because George Tekai is gay, see we did a good thing." And George Tekai was like "No, Roddenberry didn't write the character, you didn't do a good thing."
Wow
You know you fucked up when Takai says you're doing political correctness wrong.
If that's what Simon Pegg said then he didn't consider that it limits the amount of roles available to gay actors.
Because it stands to reason that if it's preferable for gay actors to play gay characters instead of straight ones, then likewise straight roles would be for straight actors.
@@CoffeeConnected Yeah, I understand complaining about underrepresentation in the past where people could be blacklisted for their sexual preferences. But asking for gay characters not to be played by straight actors or vice versa is limiting what an actor can, and should be able to play.
It's very strange to me that there is a situation where George Takei can be held up as an example of a reasonable person, but hey, there you go.
"Han Solo as a black, wheelchair-bound lesbian..." With that picture of Han, I just lost it. XD
And lets not even get started on Chewie ...
Oh gosh. That was going to be the diverse new Tarzan. Maybe Tarzan can be an Asian little person.
You tube on the ban brigade. What's offensive about a rainbow coloured Chewbacca with anus for a mouth? I'd feel empowered by that.
Actually it could work. Except that Chewbacca Would carry Han around on his back, just like he did with C-3PO.
(Cue Sam Neill Event Horizon scream)
As a person of classical european education, I would ALSO like to suggest this: *enforcing canon to be immutable, respecting the unquestionable autonomy of the author and instilling a sense of bitter shame into anyone who dares tamper with other people's work creates a climate of FORCING the creatives into necessity of creating THEIR OWN NEW THINGS*. Within and to the limits of the "inspired by", but working hard to NOT tread into the realm of "rip off" and "fanfiction".
Before anyone comes to murder me, I would like to say I have NOTHING against fan fiction, and am guilty of quite a few volumes of it myself. I do agree it is an absolutely delightful way of engaging with the worlds, characters, technologies and even themes we love. But is it innocent? NO. Work on fanfiction removes the sense of shame of tampering with other author's work, replacing it - perversely - with the sense of pride at one's own creation.
So a fanfiction author must consciously and diligently cultivate this shame and NEVER fall under the false pretense of their work being... ACTUALLY, their work.
Sadly, most of them.. .don't.
Big Brain 🧠
I commend you for being able to dig deep into the blurring of the lines between cannon and non-cannon. Well done, sir!
"By all means, create your own characters and stories"
"Evil cannot create, only destroy" - JRR Tolkien
They don't want to create, they can't create. They only have the drive to destroy existing beloved properties because those properties don't fit their worldview. And even when the changes are made, these people still aren't satisfied.
Yes!! Cs Lewis shared the same sentiment about evil! I’ve been puzzled and upset with the constant rebooting. This idea you connect is the key! Bravo!
It's amazing how melodramatic people can get sometimes. Yeah, there's obviously a sinister conspiracy of evil people who is trying to ruin beloved stories for ideological reasons. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the mundane capitalistic desires of some pretty ordinary business people.
@@swagromancer"Just shut up and enjoy male heroes being emasculated and replaced with women, white heroes being race swapped, straight characters being made conspicuously non-straight, stories being force-fed identity politics, etc. You're gonna take *[the message]* and you're gonna like it, even if every property that has this forced into it immediately begins losing money."
Did you even watch the video/this channel, or are you just baiting?
@@burnttoast26 Can you just talk in quotes, or what is your deal?
"They", whoever they might be, those evil people who want to destroy all your favorite IPs for the sake of being evil, don't exist. You're shaking your fists at nothing, and it's ridiculous.
@@swagromancer Either baiting or contrarian.
4:08 "they decided they wanted to take Star Wars in a whole new direction, and trying to work within the confines of the convoluted expanded universe would have required them to use brains and creativity" DAMN STRAIGHT
bro Lukas Film would sign on to just about anything being cannon if we had the original legends cannon for star wars Palatine would have come back from the dead like 20 times There would be whatever the hell anti-Force was supposed to be every side character would have at least 3 conflicting origins the force would be killable entities on some far away planet and every bit of explanation would contradict at least something from earlier
One reason they gave years ago for the de-canon was that Chewbacca was killed off. So now he's alive and everyone else is dead lol
@@squid-boy4178 The expanded universe was a funny thing. It had tiered canon levels. Definitely happened, most likely happened, probably happened provided other things didn't happen, didn't happen.
@@orangeapples G, C, D, S, N. (I don't acknowledge T-canon, nor the products that was made under that.)
I never had a problem with the EU being downgraded to the "Legends" umbrella. I read a lot of those books back in the day, and they were fine for their time, but after a while, a lot of those stories got convoluted as time went on. Yeah, I know there are people that hold those stories dear, and I feel for them, but when it came time to make new movies with the legacy cast, where would they find space in the time line for a new set of stories? It's just a shame LFL took a blank slate and completely screwed up with the sequel trilogy. A truly missed opportunity. Perhaps the EU fans have the right idea. I don't know.
8:50 to 9:40, truer words have never been said, and the ideals behind those words extend well beyond just the realm entertainment.
i haven't watched all of your vids, but this has to be one of the absolute best so far. keep up the good work.
This is why the "head canon" has always been the most reliable. All the things I've loved through the course of my life. Ninja turtles, sonic the hedgehog, transformers, and others have been put through so many different continuities and canons that I just pick and choose the parts I like and it's all part of the cultural zeitgeist. 🤷♂️
I do the same. It's just too much to keep up with.
J. Jonah Jameson's laughter is life.
So glad they've got JK Simmons playing him again for the MCU movies
That and Sam Neil's scream.
@@thelastmotel "You serious?"
Brilliant portrayal...absolutely jumped right off the pages of the comics.
@@LordVulcan93 -- Did you miss the ending of the last Spiderman movie?
"By all means, go create your own characters and worlds that tick as many boxes as you want and see how well they stand on their own merits."
I almost stood up from my chair and cheered....
Which is why I respect Steven Universe even though I have zero interest in it whatsoever. Regardless of whatever quality it is, it's at least original and not riding the coattails of something else while shitting on longtime fans.
They don't because they know nobody will watch it in the vast majority of cases.
They'd rather make James Bond agender than make their own spy action/thriller series about a genderless spy.
The point is to take away all alternatives not expand the diversity of characters.
@@s3studios597 it kinda did with steven universe future tho but ok
@@libertatemadvocatus1797 You're bang on the money there mate
I would never understand this Hollywood's obsession of turning every movie into PC content. I'm all about political correctness where it matters - in the movies exploring the subject, not in every freaking movie in existence. Its like if Hollywood would've been obsessed about Westerns and every single movie would have cowboys and Indians in it.
Slowly turning into all my favorite characters as well lately. Caps “do better” speech was the nail for me. He gave no helpful advice or a plan to even get them going with “the message”
It's like asking for help or tips for a video game and being told "Git gud". It's toxic and unnecessary.
It is the nature of humans to collect. Not just stuff but knowledge. It is some ingrained aspect of being a human being.
That is why canon matters so much to some people. It is because they invest their energy into understanding a story or character. People also tend to like things that make sense. It is why people prefer things that look nice and aren't broken.
Remember when there used to be "stories" rather than "franchises?"
That might be Critical Drinker's essential point, boiled down to a single, bumper-sticker/t-shirt compatible sentence.
And they are treating these stories exactly like that. Creating new mediocre movies every year like opening up a new McDonald's in your neighbourhood
Pepridge Farm remembers
@@rexs.5188 Each movie the same but new at the same time. Like a new flavor of Pop-Tart.
If only canon mattered to these narcissists. Its all about the 'platform'
It's just another skinsuit that they can swan around in demanding unearned respect.
Or Deplatforming as is the case
@@toby2581 Yeah, the showrunners for Dr Who and Star Trek have both used that word platform to describe the franchises they are in charge in. They either thought everyone wants this trash woke 'entertainment' or making money isn't a concern for them. But yet they act like victims as soon as long time fans voice displeasure or stop watching smh.
Yep just a trojan horse to carry their political /social fuckery to the masses.
Perfectly stated. Socialists are why we can't have nice things.
10:38 Rey Skywa- *huge explosion
Gold
Man this is 2 years old as I watch this and it is even more true than ever. Love you, drinker!!!
The thing these companies don't understand, is coming home and watching your favourite TV show or movie with your favourite characters can be like catching up with old friends. By changing them and pretending like they were never like they were originally in the first place, is like someone telling you everything you knew about your friends is a lie. Not surprising we react the way we do.
_To make a friend you must close one eye. And to keep a friend, you must close both eyes._
It's really a no brainer why people react so negatively, but some people just think it's because we're too narrow minded. Dare I say, these people can't be helped.
So, they are gaslighting us.
Disney has secretly been a Nazi front organization since the 1930's. Behind closed doors, Disney execs secretly give each other Nazi salutes. Today, they hide and deflect by accusing everyone else of being Nazis before anyone can point out the obvious.
Ooops.... did I just mess with their 'canon'?
Canon matters for the same reason stories aren't simply collections of random sentences. Regardless of how well those individual sentences are constructed they must act as part of a whole.
And that is why everyone needs to understand that the reason they are attacking these things is cultural genocide. They are trying to slowly rewrite and erase everything made by European men. This is just one avenue of that battle.
@@based9930 Whatever the reason, 2-hour-movie makers will always be at odds with the fans of the original work, because they're trying to make something complete that is over in about 2 hours of runtime. To the movie makers, it's always a one-off, and they'll add or subtract whatever they think they need to in order to make the one movie a success. I've seen this over and over, since long before critics started criticizing it.
While there are definitely some deliberate cultural genociders out there, in the main, it's the nature of the medium to butcher the original intellectual property. I'm always the geek who's read the book before seeing the movie, so I've seen how they butcher books in order to get a self-contained, 2-hour movie that'll make money.
I think it used to be relatively rare for someone to know "the canon" before the movie came out, and most people's only exposure to, say, Wuthering Heights, was the movie. The audience that'd be disappointed was always far outnumbered by the "normies," who'd never heard of it until they made a movie about it. But they opened up a can of whoop-ass when they took on the Marvel and DC Universes, with millions of comic-book fans coming out of the woodwork, angry at how they took great stories and, to be repetitive, butchered them, not for any story-telling purpose, but for some other purpose.
I think audiences are also a lot more sophisticated, generally, because of the glut of entertainment, the Netflix Binge Phenomenon, etc. There're still a lot of normies, but the number of people who are susceptible to just any old thing if it's got good special effects is dwindling. Hell, everybody's a critic.
@@harrymills2770 - Interesting. I find I don't mind differences between written sources and movie adaptations, even significant ones, if the story is substantially the same or conveys substantially similar messages, and major characters "feel" the same. The purpose of the movie should be the same as the purpose of the original. Hell, assuming I'm not in love with the characters as written, even if the movie is vastly different than the source material, I'll be happy if it provokes similar thoughts and conversations. Because the themes and philosophies underpinning the art are way more important to me than the plot.
That said, if I have become invested in the characters and the relationships between them, then continuity is paramount to me. How can a fan of the FRANCHISE remain a fan if the characters are so schizophrenic that they are fundamentally different people every time they're on screen? The Luke Skywalker in the original trilogy can't be an entirely, fundamentally different person in TLJ, for example. Not unless the material presents the story of how he changed in a compelling way. Lack of character continuity breaks my relationship with that character as a viewer (or reader), and then I don't care about that character anymore. But worse, I lose my relationship to the story and the franchise because I feel betrayed by the maker. My investment was abused.
What pisses me off is that this is storytelling 101. A viewer/reader cannot become invested in a character that they can't relate to and how can you relate to a character you can't understand because they keep changing in ways that make zero sense? Fans of a franchise want to see what happens next to their beloved characters. And if this is fundamental to good storytelling, literally the most basic thing after mastering spelling and sentence structure, how come so-called professional movie makers manage to fuck it up so spectacularly so often?
There are ways to pull off changing characters in non-linear ways, but then continuity still has to be there in a different manifestation. Like similar themes across the stories. Or discernable theme progression. Or an overt and recognizable examination of characters across their different versions. There has to be a cogent purpose to discontinuity that gets paid off. And the more artsy you want to go, the more precise and frankly fucking clever you have to be to drag your audience along the journey without losing them. I mean, judging by how loud a group exists who like TLJ, clearly there's a market for bullshit kaleidoscopes that take a blender to established personalities and history, shake the contents into a shallow bowl, and serve it up with a single chopstick, but is it really that large a market? I'm thinking that the small number of people who like that kind of shite get bored really quickly. And are anti-social and anarchist. Maybe with borderline personality disorder. Or have the attention span of a gnat.
The film Memento had twists and bounces and discontinuity and was hard to follow, but it kept everything interesting with good drama and great tension and a constant expectation that answers were just a few seconds away, all of which had the effect of fixing the discontinuous story elements in your brain until the ending pulled the story together into a cohesive whole.
Memento was jazz.
TLJ was 6 monkeys bashing a xylophone with hammers.
Continuity matters, even if, especially if, the story is presented in discontinuous bits.
@@icmann4296 I think he’s talking specifically about movies like eragon or Percy Jackson.
if there's anything the SCP Foundation has taught me its that canon is extremely important, not so much that there's only one canon, but that each canon is distinguishable and you can follow each separate canon
I wish I had found this channel earlier! Spot on!
My dad introduced me to Star Trek when I was a kid. Reruns came on at 7 followed by The Wild Wild West with Robert Conrad. My dad has been gone for 30 years and I miss him every day but I’m glad he’s not around to see what they’ve done to Star Trek.
I loved Wild Wild West (Robert Conrad) as a kid (I was a 90s kid). I was super disappointed when I finally saw the Will Smith version in the early 2000s, not what I had expected.
I agree. These new Star Trek movies are just mindless action, devoid of the science fiction and philosophical questions that made the shows, like TNG, great.
I'm getting more and more enamoured with the way Japan runs their shows. Primarily creator-driven, and the story usually dies with the writer. It might reduce the amount of content overall, but it usually keeps the work having a singular vision and avoids the sort of disastrous retconning and counter-retconning that goes on over here.
If only they can fix their issues with the oversaturation and normalization of pedophilia and blatant "fan service" pandering to pathetic demographic and allowing those incredibly well crafted gems that pop out every now and then.
@@fleeplayTV if it is not to your liking, so don't read it, if you're asking them to change their stories, you're no different than the sjw woke crow from twitter. if you use the argument, think about the children, let me tell you that there are thousands of investigations that prove that only people with terrible mental problems, confuse reality with fiction.
@@fleeplayTV Your kind is the only "pathetic demographic" to ever exist in entertainment.
@@fleeplayTV at least they recognize that various demographics exists, I'm not even sure if Hollywood even know what the term demographic even means these days.
That's because Japan respects there culture, respects people who bring them proper entertainment, not diluted by forced patronizing political grandstanding in what ultimately boils down to "I need a break from Reality, let me go on an adventure that brings me into a heroic and crazy journey before gently dropping me back off in reality so I can once again, Feel like I can survive a new day"
Wow. This more serious version of you is as compelling as the old one. Good thorough work, in this one! 👍👍👍. I'd like to add that to me, a good story/creation is a work of art. You can't just add a moustache to the Mona Lisa without losing something in the original work. The good franchises start as finely crafted visions created by an expert craftsman with a very distinct take on things. That stands alone. Derivative works either mesh with the original vision to the point where they appear to have the same author, which to me makes them eligible (not guaranteed) for "canon", *OR* they diverge and explore different paths which the original creator definitely did not include or even hint at. Which puts them in the category of re-imaginings like Shakespeare with motorcycles and shotguns. Not canon.
For fun, let's exercise hobbies we had when we were kids or hobbies we had a few years ago, and why we stopped paying attention to them.
I, for example, loved Star Wars. I had 3 separate copies of the OT on VHS, and I grew up when the prequel trilogy was released. As a kid, I loved them, but I saw their flaws as an adult. But overall, they still added to SW. The new trilogy, book of boba, and other recent creations have me hating the hobby so much I stopped listening to the Bane audiobooks halfway through the third volume and walked away from the franchise overall.
Another hobby I've had since a teen. Warhammer 40k. I enjoyed the dark, depressing, almost cruel universe it's housed in. Stories of betrayal that likened to greek and Shakespearian tragedy. Best friends are turned against one another by corrupting influence. Struggle to try and save each other, only to be torn apart by the rift that has formed between them.
Games Workshop is ignoring/revisiting past cannon and making highly unrealistic changes to a primarily realistic sci-fi setting with rigid rules. Polishing out the dirty, gritty, and characterful aspects of the franchise for mass-market appeal as well as a younger audience. (literal children's comics being made about the universe.) That and other bullshit caused me to walk away from the hobby as a whole DURING the pandemic. A modelling hobby when we're at home with free time. Wtf.
Now they're coming after "Lord of the Rings." I've watched a franchise many times and was starting to read the books. When "Rings of power" was announced, I began to question whether I wanted to get invested in this franchise, sensing it about to go through the same war I've experienced so many times before.
List of other franchises I knew the canon of and quoted religiously: Star Trek, Terminator, DC, Marvel, Harry Potter, Yu-gi-ho, Video Games.
I fucking feel like Bella Manningham, as the corporate owners of my hobbies, gaslight the shit out of me while I point and scream at the murder of my hobbies.
I watched the old 80s teenage mutant ninja turtles shows and the live action movies so often as a kid. Like every time we went to blockbuster that’s what I would pick. When Michael Bay even suggested making them aliens, I absolutely refused to watch it. And Megan Fox didn’t want to be a redhead. Maybe it’s cause I’m a redhead myself but that decision kinda stuck with me in a bad way.
It's one thing if you want to play with my toys, I love sharing, it's another if you want to take the arms off and replace them with spaghetti noodles because that's what you like. Make your own toys with spaghetti noodle arms!
They'll change all the things you like about your toy, and then have the nerve to tell you that that's how it was all along.
Exactly. And it's not like minorities and diverse characters can't be fun. In the Umbrella Academy show I love Klaus and hate Vanya. And they're both gay. It's about the character qualities and how they're written, not if they are of a certain color or are attracted to certain people. If you want representation don't change what's already established, create your own and make them compelling and fun and people will like them.
But the thing is if that one kid that eats the glue says it loud enough one of the day assistants at the kidsplace might just give in to that and even if the normal staff at the place don’t agree with that they will end up backing the assistant so as not to admit they made a mistake leaving that person to oversee that situation
This. This so much. It's like inviting someone into your home and they rearrange your furniture while you're in the kitchen.
Warhammer kitbashing in a nutshell.
He actually showed Warhammer when he mentioned boardgames
It's a great day to be a Calvin and Hobbes fan. In fact, its always a great day to be a Calvin and Hobbes fan, because Watterson knew better than to allow anyone to usurp his total executive authority over his work, no matter how much money they were offering to throw at him.
Any update on 'Bone'?
@@jumhed994 ...you talking about the series by "Jeff Smith"? I love that stuff, and I barely hear of it, so I kind of assume anything with that name might have to do with the books.
Very true.
I was just thinking about that the other day. As a kid I was sad I couldn’t have a Hobbes stuffed animal, but now I’m thanking my lucky stars he was smart enough to say no
@@PocketRowlette Yeah, I think there was talk of Netflix maybe doing a series
"It is fiction so it is fine to change it"
I seriously can't believe people think this is a good argument.
This guy has a point.
If they want to preach a message in a story create new characters; do not use the ones we love just because they are too lazy to create new characters.
This is such a refreshing channel -- The Critical Drinker has such a sharp mind, and he delivers his ideas with such fluid comedy. Love it.
@@carl_weatherzzz7386 only gods reach that level
@@carl_weatherzzz7386
Many geniuses have to dampen their intellect to fit into society. I know I do.
80% of people are below 100 IQ.
@@carl_weatherzzz7386 Maybe that's why he IS sharp ha ha
@@justtime6736 anyone who brags about IQ is stupid.
Especially those that have to say their smart.
@@albinobama5744 People....please, let's all be kind to one another. I started this as a simple compliment and acknowledgement to the Drinker for his stellar reviews. Let's stay on this positive path, we're all not here for very long, let's ride this ride together.
I remember when we were worried Daniel Craig wouldn't make a good Bond because of his hair color.
I still think he's a shit Bond. But not because of his hair colour. His Bond has an edge that previous Bonds never had. Talk about breaking the canon. Craig's Bond absolutely breaks all of the canon.
@@Marco_Onyxheart He makes a compelling character though. I can empathise with Craig where I can't with Roger Moore or even Sean Connery. There are consequences for his actions and he can feel them, where the others would just breeze on through until they inevitably overcame the villain. You always knew the old Bonds would win the day. With Craig, you suspect he will, but at what cost? He carries that baggage with him and it lends him gravitas, much like Jason Bourne or Smiley in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.
I'm a lifelong Bond fan and I love the Craig films. I don't think they break canon at all, but simply come at it from a different angle.
Why would you worry about a blond Bond when he was originally blond in the books?
@@teabearchurchill5600 Ian Fleming specifically described Bond as tall, slim built and dark haired. I think you must have picked up the wrong book...
This just might be your best one yet.
The death of Doctor Who was truly one of the saddest things. I miss that show every day.
As a former graphic artist, I found this to be true. You cannot go back and change an artwork for the better. Once created an artwork stands on it's own as a complete, separate thought/idea/concept, a document of that time. Changing it, fiddling with colors, textures, etc DESTROYS it. Because you're not the person now that you were then you can never recapture what that piece of work was about. Seeing your artwork after a time, is like looking into your past and seeing the person that you will never be again.
Exactly
@@octomancer Yup. As a fellow programmer, I concur.
@@octomancer Yep, my favorite is when I'm criticizing some code and then git blame shows I wrote it. whoops
Castle Bravo. Enuff said.
Apt analogy
It's this odd dichotomy of wanting people to treat something seriously enough that they become fans, and then sweeping the rug out from under them by claiming they're taking it too seriously.
Gaslighting.
It's because they only see "fandom" as a commodity, like a "princess" line, and as long as "fans" cater to nostalgia (with their disposable income), it'll continue until the heat death of the universe. As soon as that commodity wanes, they look for new ways to make bank.
This teaches us that we have to never get too attached to works of fiction, charakters or canons. Producers and writers have their own ideas about how the stories are to be continued just like fan fiction writers, only that there's money on their side. When we watch franchises with expectations we will therefore inevitably be dissapointed.
Just watch the movies as individual stories made by different people, who dont care about what fans think in their heads.
Never get invested in a franchise, because you will never get a proper return on investment (unless your disney)
Basically, these stories are fun fantasies and enjoyable fictional universes to play in, even sources of inspiration, but we cannot let them dominate our lives. I think Disney and most of these woke corporations saw us, nerdy fanbases, as worshippers at some temples to various gods. And so they sought to gain that same love and devotion (and money) by twisting and destroying these gods, thinking we were just mindless sheep. And it's funny, the people who think like them and agree with their politics are hanging on... But they're not enough to sustain their product, and they chased all the would-be "mindless sheep" away. Because we didn't love the franchises for the superficial things, we loved them for the deeper meaning, the characters, and the stories. And while they are still dear to us... We're not going to devote our entire lives to it if it's been ruined, twisted and destroyed. We can move on... But they will be outraged that we have left them in their ruined kingdom. They will keep ruining everything, demanding our fealty, simply because they cannot grasp why we love and enjoy things. Or perhaps, in their incomprehension of such simple things as joy and love of a good story... They simply seek to make us all as miserable as they are.
5:59 "Ghostbusters 2016 just straight up ignored the previous 2 movies." Solid, solid burn on Ghostbusters 3 my friend
I loved that time Han Solo activated her chi and his power level went over 9000 and defeated the nazis after they invaded narnia.
*their
*its
I loved that time when Han Solo was a black wheelchair bound lesbian who liked getting pegged by hot german girls in latex, cause strongwoman
I love how conservatives seethe about Dr who not being a straight white man for once
@@shanky1751 and look at what you replaced him with, a woman with the personality of a boiled egg.
The day just got a thousand times better now that the Drinker uploaded.
I agree 100%
Nothing like a funny dunk guy on CZcams to start your day
"I concur, doctor"
Hear hear!
Agree..
9:26 Was that Detective Pikachu? I haven't seen you do a review on it before.
Maybe you'll talk about it in a future video about video game adaptations replacing the superhero genre.
FINALLY, I've seen a Drinker video where someone actually "goes away" at the end.
The fact is in the case of Star Wars, the Legends stories are 10 times better than what we got in the Sequel trilogy.
Even the bad EU (Legends) material is better, because the people writing and creating those stories understand Star Wars and understood what was expected.
Yes, i was so excited to see the Thrawn series in movie form when Disney announced new movies. Then it all got flushed.
all they had to do was take what were considered by the fanbase to be the best books and make them movies. But no, they weren't woke enough.
Also how is it even possible we don't have a movie yet that is simply titled "Vader" and shows what happened between the Prequels and the OT? That seems like an absolute no brainer.
Well some of the legends are better than even the originals and even rival clone wars
One of my favorite writers once said the most important element to establishing your fictional setting is consistency. You are open to write any fantastical and outrageous themes to your world, but you have to maintain them throughout your narrative to ground and establish a foundation for the reader. This is why canon is so important, especially in the Fantasy / Sci-Fi genre.
Exactly this. Otherwise you get teh 4 year olds imaginary play fight where that one kid pulls out the "invinsivle swurd ov des trucktion" killing the fun for all of the others
But then you get rabid LOTR where the story can't change and it's done. You do need some leeway but not too much that it invalidates the entire story like mouse canon does.
Stan Lee said the same thing. If you want to make a character's superpowers believable, you have to provide a logical base as to how they get that power
Clearly nobody in Hollywood went to writing class
I take exception to describing us as "overly attached" to canon. It's not unreasonable to expect a story not to betray itself. If you don't want to have to stick to canon, make your own story instead of lazily latching onto something that's already established.
I can speak for myself regarding Star Wars. From the age of 6, I listened to The Phantom Menace on tape, every night when I went to sleep, for a staggering amount of time. Since then, I was probably one of the biggest Star Wars fans on the face of the planet.
I've bought all the movies (1-6), animated show DvD box sets, toys, action figures, lightsaber models and a set of Stormtrooper armor. I've bought and played pretty much every Star Wars video game ever released, and I've read ALL the books and comics and even a bunch of fan-fiction. I was an avid editor of wookiepedia for several years.
The amount of time, effort and money I've spent on Star Wars throughout my life is absolutely staggering! I've basically willingly been paying a Star Wars tax my entire life. Before I even turned 18.
And when Disney destroyed the expanded universe, I was very upset.. but slightly hopeful that they would at least replace it with something worthwhile.
Episode 7 came around. I was not impressed. Thought was just episode 4 with a new coat of paint. They didn't need to wreck the expanded universe for that. Just remake episode 4 instead!
For the first time in my life, I did *not* buy new action figures, the new lightsaber models, Lego sets or whatever else I might've bought after the other movies. I didn't even buy the DvD when it came out.
Then... Episode 8 killed ALL. I repeat. ALL! interest I ever had in the franchise. I didn't just not buy the DvD. I SOLD everything starwars that I owned. I mean ALL of it. I was done. One of my life's greatest passions gone. It wasn't just that the movie was shit. I was the complete lack of respect for the IP, for the fans, and the fact that it was so MUCH worse than pretty much anything in the expanded universe that was in spirit destroyed to make way for that flaming pile of garbage.
I didn't watch Ep. 9 in theathres like I did all the rest. I didn't buy the DvD. And I dont intend to ever watch it. Same with The Mandalorian. And anything else released in the future with the Star Wars logo. I'm just not interrested anymore.
THAT is why cannon matters. Continuity is the only thing that gives a story any meaning. If the owners don't give a shit about it, why the fuck should I? And If I don't give a shit about the franchise, I sure as shit don't intend to purchase anything related to the franchise. Dinsey's disrepect for the star wars cannon, has cost Disney roughly 6 years worth of my spending money since episode 7 came out.
I highly recommend that you give The Mandalorian season 1 and 2 a chance. The shows creators have poured their heart and soul into it and I personally think it shows. Is it without flaws? No, but still great.
Lastly, I hope someday you'll be able to get back some of that love and passion for Star Wars that you once held.
- A fellow disgruntled nerd :)
what a sad strange little man
As a history teacher who frequently rants about the Disney Star Wars universe, any time a student asks me why I care so much about canon I promptly tell them they have no hope of passing the class as you have missed the entire point of it.
Why do you rant about Disney in class?
@@AzureSymbiote It actually started after we had a free day after finals but before Christmas break so I asked if they wanted to learn about anything in particular and the first student to speak asked me about Star Wars in general (as it is well known I am a huge old school nerd) and I went off. The kids found me getting heated and ranting so hilarious that they petitioned to have me start an activities club (20 minutes at the end of every day for clubs and stuff) where we discuss sci-fi and fantasy pop culture.
@@lucusaugustin4003 You are the best kind of teacher. (Well, one of them.)
Exactly, these stories may not be real, but the inspiration that created them was real, and the inspiration they gave to others was also real. It's no different than reading about historical events that are dead and in our past.
If you ignore fictional and mythological stories just because someone else told you it was ok to ignore them, then you have no independence or maturity.
@@lucusaugustin4003 Hah, you remind me of my Dutch teacher in high school (Dutch being our primary language; not some foreign language class I was taking). At some point during the lesson plan, the notion of the "quest" came up. Instead of doing a boring lesson on the subject, he rolled in the TV and VCR, and popped in a copy of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, which we then got to discuss during the next class. Thirty years later, I may not remember much from high school, but _that_ I do. Fondly...
Stay awesome! :)
Fan fiction is the thing that companies that CBS fail to grasp, they feel the need to crush and cancel fan fiction because they see it as threatening their official canon when all the fans know that it isn't canon.
Then again, The Last Jedi come across as fanfiction...
That because they're trying to make money off what a lot of fanfiction does. Some write gender/race/orientation changes for the "see myself on screen" idea that the studios and SJWs jump all over.
Fan fiction doesn't need to be grasped by the companies who own the properties, it needs to be fought. By the companies and by everyone else.
Fan fiction is nothing more than shameless copyright infringement. It's illegal, it's immoral and it's deceiving.
Fan fiction is only a threat to canon because it exploits canon, which can ultimately lead to the discontinuation of a media franchise alltogether.
@@EFreD-ed4ds I mean, I agree that there can be some really poorly written fanfiction, cringe inducing to the max. But oh boy, it isn't copyright infringement, every fanfiction is labeled as fanfiction and tells what property it is a fan fiction of, it is non profit and non intrusive. If I made a fan fiction of the Avengers, and tried selling that without Marvel's permission, that would be illegal. Nothing's illegal about writing something for free, specifically labeled as fan fiction. It's deceiving in no way, everyone knows that fanfiction is precisely that, fanfiction. Not immoral in any way conceivable. It's not a threat to canon in the slightest, in fact, the more fanfiction something has, the better, because fans are engaged with the property and that is something companies generally speaking like to see.
You personally may not like fanfiction, that's fine. There's certainly a stigma about fanfiction and generally speaking it does earn that, because for every one fanfiction piece that respects the source material and seeks to make their own spin on it, there are 100s that seek to change a character's sexuality, and pair them with someone who they were not meant to be paired with.
@@Theendman42 Correct. Fanfiction (even if it's terrible) is an indicator of how vibrant a fan base is. Fanfiction should be encouraged by TPTB, as long as it stays in its lane. Companies who think it's "infringing" on something and try to shut it down are cutting off their own noses.
2 years on and it’s only getting better with age mate, you called it
I took up metal casting (aluminum, bronze, copper), bought a forge/anvil to play with smithing, and a few other interesting hobbies... As all my shows get destroyed it seems the simple physical world is more interesting.