Is Bayle FromSoftware's Best Dragon?
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
- Obviously a matter of opinion! But here I compare dragons from Elden Ring, the ER DLC Shadow of the Erdtree, and Dark Souls 3. Hope you enjoy!
#eldenring #darksouls3 #gaming #gaminganalysis
Let me preach to you the gospel of liking both Elden Ring and Dark Souls 3. It is possible. I'm doing it right now!
Wait! DS3 fanboys can't accept that. You need to say one is objectively better while downplaying the other.
@@enman009 I've got ER diehards talking shit on my DS3 videos as well, so it's a 2-way street lol.
@@jermergerg Ah, the Soulsborne Community experience: many Masterpieces but can't like more than one.
Or in general liking all Fromsoftware's Soulsborne games, they each have their own personality and thing that makes them good, it's kinda annoying when people just start downplaying other games
@@enman009 There are way more Elden Ring fans doing exactly that to Ds3
Bayle without Igon -> gold medal
Bayle with Igon -> platinum medal
Igon is the best character in Fromsoft with the best voice acting (including cut content)
@@weskintime4177nah patches is still the goat
CURSE YOU, BAYLE! I HEREBY VOW! YOU WILL RUE THIS DAY!
ur a summoning scrub
@weskintime4177 Igon is cool but he can't beat the GOAT Siegward.
there was a lack of hating on ancient dragons
They are so bad that people refuse to acknowledge their existence
We don’t talk about the “those” dragons for good reason 😊
@@brandinicole1372eh, I found Fortissax to be the best base game dragon fight.
Placi is just a slog with a runup that is way too easy to fall to you death to, or get f**ked over by the game and have it send you into the void after the getting up animation.
@@bigsmall2842yea I thought normal dragons were bad enough lol
I liked the wyverns on horseback but there was no redeeming ancient dragons for me, their hit box always feel so out of reach
If you’re not including Igon, it’s a tough debate, with Igon however, it’s simply undisputed (I am so very biased)
CURSE YOU BAYLE!!
Petition for FS to make a spin off Igon game.
I prefer fighting him without Igon as fighting a boss solo is more epic 😊
@@thepublicpotato3887igon doesn’t really do anything except scream lmao. When I used him, he only hit bayle like twice and I think he took aggro maybe one time for a split second or two
@@abrahamlincolnreal8166 I hereby vow! You will rue this day!
As a fan of Monster Hunter, I always found it odd that some players struggled or refused to ever free aim any boss encounters even when it's more advantageous to do so. However, when you mentioned that normal encounters very much don't demand that I understood why. I guess when a boss demands you use a skill that isn't taught, it can be quite frustrating.
As a console player, you need to use your right thumb to move a camera around. Most players will also use their right thumb the roll. When boss is doing an attack string, it can be nearly impossible to keep your camera focused on a boss whilst they do a complex attack strong whilst also dodging through the attacks with precise timing with the same thumb, which is why it's pretty annoying (at least when playing with a controller)
@@jamesbell1186 for enemies that don't move around so much like fire giant or placidussax you don't really need to move the camera much at all.
@@Ghorda9 That's true
Honestly most Souls vets learned to not use lock on back in DS1.
But I do see what you mean, it isn't necessarily taught by the game, however on the flip side of that same coin nothing really is in Souls games. 🤷🏻♂️
Just more base strategies are taught a little more intuitively, and not everyone is a vet.
That's exactly why I re-mapped my dodge to left trigger.
I can look around and dodge at the same time. Who the heck thought losing control of your camera was a good idea?
All three fights are great, but I do think Midir and Bayle presents powerful rampaging dragons much better than Placidusax.
Placidusax felt a bit too immobile and clunky despite having his teleport move.
Placidusax does feel more… special though. It’s hard to explain but when you get in his arena and he’s just… floating there with 3 missing heads and mutilated everywhere.
His nuke move is also much cooler than bayle one, even makes his ost stop in the meantime.
I do agree fight wise bayle was better though.
I personally think that works in Placidusax's favor, since I see him as conveying more of a run-down regal dignity rather than something that's brutal and rampaging.
Placidusax feel like he is a lord fight bayle and midir are wild animals that you are putting down while placidusax is a fight between lords
Yeah. I do think some types of players will appreciate Placidusax more than the other two, as some don't care to fully master the bosses and just want spectacle. The dragonlord will likely be their favorite of the 3.
I felt like that gave him more awe, like he is an actual wise elder lord of the dragons rather than a self-serving savage beast.
I think you should've talked about the laser attack of each boss, in my opinion they're the pinnacle and the tradition in the tough dragon fights of FromSoft. (Also the runback to bayle's arena is by far the shortest one which is a + for me)
Dude I knew some of the DLC fights were going to be tough when they put sites of grace right outside the arena instead of a stake of merika
@@StrappingYoungLadamBut thank god they did. I’m very glad they moved away from run backs, especially the really bad run backs
Midirs run back is very short, has no enemy's and one of the most Epic Entrances in the Franchise right after Burnt Ivori King. They even replicated this Fall and the look of his Arena with Putrecent Knight. Midir has many Inspiring things, that people aren't acknowledging. Bayle is a top Tier Boss, maybe the best in the Dlc. Wich is very unfortunate for Midir beeing next to Gael, the picnickle of the Dark Souls Franchise. Bayle is technically better, but Midir was the first true Outstanding Dragon fight, who is on par with Amazing fights like O&S, Alone, Ludwig, Gael and Godfrey. Bayle beeing the Second on the exact caliber is insane to me. Placidusax wore of after a couple of Playthroughs. He is Great and all, but not as refined and all other Dragons are to janky for it. Sry Kalameet, Sin and Fortisaxx Fans.
@@anigodzapex9384I’ve always liked Placidusax more. And the issue with Midir is that he is incredibly simple and easy. He has very few moves, and only has 1 threatening move
@@Detriax Dont get me wrong. I love Placidusax. He is easily bettter then Rest of the Fromsoft Dragons. Dragon God, Gaping, Kalameet, Guardian Dragon, Ancient Dragon, Sin, Ancient Wyvern, Storn King, Oceiros (Nobody mentions the self created Half Dragon to resemble Seath), Divine Dragon, Lansseax, Fortisax. He is better then all of these, wich is a Lot at this Point.
His Teleportions look cool and are well Telegraphed, his Thunderstrikes are a well Designed get of me Move and his Stormcloud Assaults look Amazing and are satisfying to Dodge. My problem is, that he just Sits there for 50 percent of the Fight, his Flame Breath Hitboxes are weird and he is also to easy in Repeated Runs. Midir and Bayle have way more imposing Melee Comboes, more Dynamic Movement. The Build Up for both is as good aswell and the Themes are just Magnificent. Bayle Bombastic Track and Midir Tragic Melody will be stuck in my Head Forever. Placid´s theme gives me Monster Hunter Frontier Shantien Vibes, wich is a Big Compliment. Its just really classic "Epic Dragon Music", wich is very good, but not good enough. And i feel this way for everything for him.
BAAYYYLE! VILE BAYYLE!!!
Bayle fans rise up
SOLID OF SCALE YOU MIGHT BE, FOWL DRAGON
BUT I WILL RIDDLE WITH HOLES ,YOUR ROTTEN HIDE
BUT I WILL RIDDLE WITH HOLES, YOUR ROTTEN HIDE!
It’s spelled foul. Fowl means bird
*BUT I WILL RIDDLE WITH HOLES YOUR ROTTEN HIDE!!!*
@@buffoonustroglodytus4688 well he is a bird.
Midir best fought unlocked? Interesting take. I always thought staying locked on to the head is what makes the fight easier.
Way easier. Only have to disengage the camera for a couple moves but the rest the lock on makes the fight way easier
I agree, he is still my favorite
Midir, palcidusax, and bayle may be challenging bosses in their own right, but I don't think I've ever faced a boss as hard and difficult as the dark souls camera
Dark Souls camera + a corner, there is no more challenging opponent
+my controller with horrid stick drift, truly the worst experience lol.
Bayles fight was definitely the most fun and epic in the entire dlc, and unlike second phase Radahn, he actually felt fair
tell me what is unfair about second phase radahn? the only bad thing about him is the double slash attack which is nearly undodgeable, otherwise an extremely well crafted boss where everything is dodgeable, optimization is the games fault not radahns
@@gerwan9132the boss itself just doesn’t feel fair. That’s the issue. Well, it’s second phase doesn’t feel fair
@gerwan9132
The lights.
I genuinely couldn't see shit because of light pillars end explosions everywhere, not to mention that when Radahn spins, all I can see are Miquellas long ass hair (and you HAVE to dodge him on the sides, if you roll backwards the lights are gonna hit you).
His moveset per se it's fine, but the lights make everything so chaotic.
Fantastic first phase, the second one is more scenic but less suitable for a gameplay
@@santiagopepaj7525we need to stop using demon souls combat if the bosses are becoming more and more anime.
@@based-ys9um Demon Souls combat? Are you serious? Play it again and tell me with a straight face it’s Demon Souls combat, Elden Ring’s combat is literally faster than Bloodborne even.
I feel like it’s a dance with Bayle rather than a fight, and every thing he does looks so dramatic while looking like a feral wild animal at the same time.
My favorite part is his phase transition and his death animation, he tried his best to summon down thunder to charge his broken wing weapon but he didn’t realize he was already dead.
feels like a dance? Did we fight the same boss???
If by dance you mean wait for it to do a bloated combo, then get 1 hit in and repeat for the next 10 minutes that it takes to take his health down… then yes.
@@HEXBasmentBubbanot everyone has narrow skillset like you
@@Kaiji...Skill issue on your part, I literally kept attacking on the end of each combo, attacking the boss at least every 3-4 seconds. Stop making shit up, git gud, stop coping and misinforming people. I have video of my 6th attempt on a boss on my channel, I learned him much better on my second playthrough of DLC just yesterday, will post that too. That's if you're genuinely interested of course, and hopefully not a blatant troll trying to be different
@@Kaiji...Beat him with falling star beast jaw and didn’t take any damage till phase two. He doesn’t have a crazy amount of combos but his lightning after effect in phase two is pretty annoying. He’s really not that bad but then again using strength builds I can stagger him like 3-4 times in the fight.
Not summoning Igon just for the voice lines is a crime
I did not summon him for my solo run but the next run im gonna have to summon him
Midir is still the best
I wholeheartedly disagree with the lock on take on Midir. I was fight him lock on right in front of him only dodging backwards until he finishes his combos and I never have problems with his camera. Of course it does swing a lot up, down and side to side but it just makes the fight more cinematic and it doesn't interfere on the gameplay. As long as you keep him always in front of you its a flawless camera wich is impressive for such a big enemy and seeing how fromsoftware struggled so much with camera in this last dlc
The lock on is constantly being removed with Mider which can be really annoiying
The Midir lockon works perfectly fine?? I never considered to have problems with it in some sort of way? What is wrong about him?
I could not figure out any way to stay locked on for the Bayle bossfight. With Midir, I never had problems at all
13:04 if this happens, Bayle falls apart as well
The camera spins fast around Bayle, yes..
But if you are behind him after this combo 14:25
14:27 this next hit likely hits you.
Thw camera is also too often inside of Bayle 14:33
Midir camera is the best because it's mostly close to it's head, the head is low so unless he's doing the overhead fire attack and then you can see it and move back the camera doesn't go funky with spin. Also the fight is designed so you attack the head, retreat a bit while he does some combo and then attack again.
I stayed locked on for the whole bayle fight except that flying fire breath and never had any problems except for when I made the mistake of getting under him
@@sirmaissi yeah.. I could not figure out how to fight with his camera. After two hours of trying btw.. I think I tried enough.
Only one attack I had where the lockon was shit was when Midir got onto his hindlegs and spewed downwards fire.
@@howdoyoudo5949 Agreed.. but when he spits fire, you already made a huge mistake..
This is only happening if you go under him, which is not the way you are supposed to do it.
If you stay infront of him, this attack will not even happen.
I would say, Placidusax becomes even more of a spectacle fight if you go into it with an ash of war like Raptor of the mists or Vow of the Indomitable! Being able to stand there as he readies his giant lightning nuke and just shrug it off, or land a jumping attack provided by Raptor of the mists is just so awesome. You can essentially avoid running away altogether with tools like those, as even with his divine breath attacks you can stay near him while he's doing and just counter the very end of it for even more damage.
After the first few attempts on bayle my thoughts were: oh damn midir and placi had a child^^
Midir all day for me, no disrespect to Bayle tho still an amazing boss fight.
If you have nostalgia goggles yeah, Midir in hindsight is a poorman's placidusax in mechanical standpoint and poor camera view. and lastly he's way too easy compared to the other two
@@fortress7493literally have no clue what you mean. Midir is so much more mobile than the other 2 which makes the fight feel more dynamic. Placidusax is a big blob who barely moves with his attacks almost always missing in the first phase. 2nd phase is better but that’s just because he actually MOVES. Midir’s camera is also better than Bayle’s but granted, it is worse than Placidusax (because he doesn’t MOVE). Difficulty is pretty subjective as well. You may have found Midir much easier than Placidusax and Bayle, but for me Midir and Bayle are hard and Placidusax is piss easy
@@fortress7493In terms of difficulty of midir, I would disagree. I beat bayle in 2-3 tries my first run, but it took me multiple days to beat midir. Not only that, despite me getting slammed by midir I never once thought it was unfair. Overall, bayle is a great fight, but I still think midir wins out, at least for dragon fights.
@alottadamage8192 considering how easy midir is I can tell you used summons on bayle. And that's okay, but it's unfair to even use that comparison considering DS doesn't have any summons.
@lewiscampbell8683 placidusax literally flies around in his 2nd phase. Idk where u got that he's a blob, and every 2 attacks Bayle moves to a different spot in his 2nd phase.
You didn't fully touch on it, but I think the music on Bayle also is top tier and elevates it so well. The way it changes in phase to make it seem like even more impending doom is something to witness your first time.
Long comment ahead:
Yeah, I had heard a lot about Bayle going into the DLC, so naturally I was intrigued to fight him and felt a sense of excitement once I realized that I was getting close to actually doing it. Now having fought and beaten Bayle, I can honestly say that I see the hype. He’s definitely one of the very best dragon fights From has ever done.
With that being said, Midir is, in my opinion, the closest that they have ever come to the perfect dragon fight. None of them are without flaws, however Midir to me is the one who has the least amount of glaring ones. With the dragon fights, especially when it comes to Bayle and Midir specifically, I really think that it simply comes down to whether you prioritize the spectacle, or the fight itself; visuals or gameplay.
When it comes to Bayle, I think it’s fair to say that he’s more of a spectacle than probably any other dragon fight they’ve ever made. The sheer amount of chaos going on and the visuals can attest to that. The reason why Midir is better is because the fight seems to be more polished in comparison, and it just feels more satisfying. Bayle has some very clear mechanical issues, some of which you already touched on in your video.
To start with, he shares the same flaw (in my opinion) that many Elden Ring bosses do, which is that he’s super spammy at times. He rarely stops attacking and gives you few windows to land attacks of your own. Another thing is that when he does actually give you a window to attack him, it’s very short-lived, then he goes right back to attacking constantly. And his positioning can be weird at times too, which presents issues when he actually does leave a window to attack him as well as when you’re trying to avoid his attacks. A big one is when he lands in front of you, giving you an opening to hit him, and he awkwardly moves his head around which causes your attacks to miss. He reminds me of King of the Storm (The Nameless King’s first phase) in this regard, albeit more tedious because he has way more health and leaves less openings. The last thing is that his hitboxes can be downright questionable at times as well as inconsistent (you already kinda talked about this).
With Midir, as with any other large enemy in these games, the camera can be an issue at times, but apart from that I don’t really have any complaints. His attacks are generally telegraphed and easily readable, he leaves solid openings to punish and doesn’t awkwardly move around as much causing you to miss when you try to hit him (though I have missed him occasionally due to this issue, just not as often), he doesn’t attack spam you, and his hitboxes pretty much all feel fair and I never find myself questioning when I get caught by something. Aside from that, while I wouldn’t say that he’s as much of a spectacle as Bayle, he is a spectacle in his own right. His attacks and animations look really cool, his transition into his second phase is awesome, and in terms of design (purely dragon to dragon), I think Midir is actually the cooler looking one of the two. Not to mention that his OST is peak. As well as the way that he terrorizes the city, and the buildup to eventually fighting him.
As for Placidusax, to sum it up quickly, he’s another visual spectacle and one of the best they’ve done (possibly only surpassed by Bayle in that regard). As for the fight itself, he has some really cool looking attacks, and some of them are really fun to dodge. The main issues that I have are one of which you said already, that you pretty much have to spend the entire fight locked-off because it just feels awkward otherwise. The other is the positioning. Both Bayle, and especially Midir, practically force you to stay in front of them and hit them in the head through a combination of their movements and attacks which are clearly designed specifically to keep you in front of them. Placidusax on the other hand kinda discourages you from staying in front of him due to certain attacks (mainly his fire breath). Often times it just feels more convenient to circle around towards his back and attack him there. Which makes the fight itself not as fun in my opinion.
Bayle's phase two transition is so epic and also gets my #1 vote but yeah the dragons listed are 100% the top 3 without a doubt.
Good video dude
I enjoy midir tge most, but bayle is so unbelievable close. I like Midirs aesthetic and lore, and his fight is great, I love how his fight evolves, he comvos more moves together.
No. Too many of his attacks put him out of reach, which can often result in you running after him, only for him to jump away again before you can reach him. He’s a good fight if the AI doesn’t decide to screw with you, but he’s still not better than Midir.
The fight is much better with Igon.
Igon doesn't provide anything except distract Bayle. that's the same as saying Using mimic tear makes Bayle more fun.
The fight is straight up upgrade in every category: design, fight mechanics, fight build up, lore and ost. Also, boss being out of your reach means you're fighting cowardly and distancing yourself. On all of my attempts I kept applying pressure on Bayle and had no problems you mentioned. I say let's put nostalgia aside and see things for what they truly are
Great points. While I love Bayle and consider him my favorite ER boss, Midir to me is still the best dragon boss mechanically speaking. There are 2 problems with Bayle.
One as you already covered is the camera. While the camera does work sufficiently, it often takes you underneath him and you end up always being blinded or literally stuck inside the model, which can make for some janky moments.
Second, while he has a very dynamic moveset that makes for some cinematic moments, it does create problems thats often found with a lot of ER bosses. He can often extend his combos without a buildup or enough time for you to react. For example, for his biting attack, he can extend it by doing almost a headbutt, which comes out quite quickly. This just leaves me guessing or always assuming he's gonna do it, so I end up either rolling through it, or wasting a roll. As similarly stated, some attacks come more quickly than you have time to roll out of. For example, he can sometimes just roar right in your face and multiple lightning strikes will follow. My only solution was to just keep a fair distance away from his head.
? You just i-frame the roar and run away from the lightning.
@anonymousperson8903 "As similarly stated, some attacks come more quickly than you have time to roll out of."
@@zed6740 It doesn't come out too quickly though. It's a subtle tell but it's definitely there, and once you learn it you can dodge it every time.
@anonymousperson8903 Then that's the problem, it's too subtle to even tell it's gonna come out. It should be better communicated and telegraphed that it's coming.
@@zed6740 Debatable. I see your point, unsure if I agree.
You can still take an offensive approach during Placid's slam nuke. The tip of his tail is outside the shockwave. You can run back there and get in a bunch of hits
I love Bayle too, he got complex moveset that requires good timing on dodges, positioning, even jump attack. My favourite is the tail swipe too, but also the slam attack in phase 2. After the slam theres lava erruption, so after dodging it you have to position yourself fast enough to be right infront of Bayle's head before the erruption goes off to get your punish. Its great that that move Bayle actually recover slower compare to the phase 1 slam, you can even get a full charge attack off. Even his laser move he will end up right infront of you afterwards. You can also jump over his phase 2 nuke to get a free jump attack, mastering the fight is immensely satisfying to me.
Yup. When I first got to phase 2, after like 3d attempt, I saw the nuke, just how much ground it covered and straight up thought there's the way to , or ideally jump it. Overall, Elden Ring DLC highly demands the player to know perfectly the core mechanics of the base game, with a lot of bosses requiring you to jump, having moderate poise so you target stance breaking, a lot of bosses still have roll catching attacks. For example, jumping over Rellana's moons, over Bayle's aoe. Also, Bayle has very low poise for a dragon so being aggressive with him is the key, especially considering how the boss has frequent punish windows where you hit his head
@@Vengeance_Im true, I was using a great hammer fighting him. End up poise break him 4 times in a single fight after knowing when to hit him and go full on aggressive mode.
very nice video man, hope this blows up because its very well thought out
Midir is by far the best dragon bossfight and imo one the best bossfight ever created by fromsoftware tied by gael.
Its a perfect dance when you know how to fight it with absolute 0 dumbshit attacks that are undodgable or unreactable, its hp pool is more than enough and learning to fight midir properly (by staying next to his head) is so satisfying and the combat feels just insanely well. Talking about the Midir / Placidusax / Bayle laser beam attack, the midir one is the best also by far by the simple fact that midir doing his laser ultimate truely shows that he's giving absolutely EVERYTHING into that attack displayed by the fact that he is exhausted after doing it, it just feel fair, you play well against the boss that he's starting to struggle against you and then do that all out attack,
Placidusax laser is cool af and felt like a cool reference to midir but it feels goofy to dodge and it doesn't give that "i gave everything" feeling after. Also placidusax basic attacks are complete garbage in terms of dodging, spacing etc.. its just a nightmare to fight against his firebreath, however the boss looks fucking cool.
Bayle is insane and mix good references to midir moveset, i personally im sure i would love the fight if the lightning / fire effects didn't freeze my pc everytime he does an attack on phase 2. (also if you're a pc player, i prefer delocking when phase transition happens and just adjust the camera looking at each one of the fireballs that comes at you, it makes it easier to run away from it)
anyway i would say Midir, Bayle and Placidusax, shout out to kalameet
Personally, as much as I loved Bayle in ER, I think Midir is still Fromsoft's best dragon.
you deserve way more subs for an essay this smooth.
Midir is still my favorite simply because whilst Placidusax and Bayle are amazing bosses (Bayle is my favorite dlc boss) Midir is actually a dragon. The others are so mangled beyond belief that they are kind of slugs more than anything. I’ve always hated blob shaped bosses and both placi and Bayle are very much similar to the latter than the former, I.e. an actual dragon.
I don’t understand how Sekiro learned the art of camera zoom out yet ER does not. So many bosses would be better if the camera was just more versatile.
The camera is honestly way more with Midir than with Bayle and Placidusax
I find fighting while locked on to Midir's head extremely easy and natural, I'm surprised you don't enjoy it. He is still (at this moment) my favorite Fromsoft dragon boss, simply because of how engaging his fight is. There's no need to smack him in the ankles, his head is always present and there for you to take advantage of. With more practice against Bayle in the future I could see him rising, but for now he takes a close second. He has just a few too many massive AOE's that leave me feeling unsafe challenging him head on, but as I learn to deal with those I may find less of an issue with them down the road.
I can appreciate that at least you admit that your struggle with free-aiming is a skill issue. Camera management is one of the most important mechanics that separate good players from great players, and learning when to lock on vs when to free-aim is extremely important in both pvp and pve challenge settings. Would a perfect lock on camera that always framed the target be nice? Yes. Is it practical from a coding perspective? I highly doubt it. But we can hope that some improvements do come down the road.
With regard to the camera, do you think it would help if the camera zoomed out slightly? Similar to how Final Fantasy 16 handles large bosses but not to the same extent.
Gameplay wise it's Bayle, but holy shit Midir's soundtrack is unbeatable, it's straight up the best boss ost in the series imo (besides of course Ludwig's and Laurence's ost)
This is a cool video, I love the concept of dragons and even if some of the fights are janky I'm glad they are still making them. I like Midir's visual style more and the fact that he's super intimidating at first but becomes easy once you understand the fight is cool to me. Also seeing clips of how cool Midir looked was what convinced me to try souls games so I'm super biased. Bayle is awesome though, super close second from my very not objective point of view, great video.
its definitely Midir, like its not even close. the fight truly is the closest you can feel to fighting an actual dragon
that said Bayle is sick and Igon obviously gives it bonus points making for a fantastic fight (it also has a metric fuckton of recency bias which you have to take into account)
As someone who isn't normally a fan of fighting dragons, Bayle was so much fun and I loved learning his moves.
My perfect dragon boss fight should be:
- Atmosphere: Placidusax
- Music: Midir
-Moveset: Bayle
- Lore: A bit bias here, I love the battle of Placidusax and Bayle, but raising by gods and fighting The Abyss for eternity is really my favorite vibe
- Design: Dragon God (Although he’s a demon)
- Epicness: Divine Dragon
- Intro: Kalameet (We get a whole cutscene before fighting him is an absolute cinema)
And the boss fight shouldn’t have any camera issues like how we fight against Bayle (it’s terrible locking on him).
That is how I create my personal perfect dragon fight based on my previous dragon fights
nah music should be Foritssax
@@BlacklistedSoup That’s ur opinion. Midir ost is still the goat to me
Bayle ost is of much higher quality and more memorable imo. Overall, DS3 music often times sounds too generic and repetitive, it's like you're listening to a remix. Elden Ring covers big range of instruments and different genres in the OSTs
@@Vengeance_Im Appreciate your opinion, but can’t say the same to me. My opinion is quite contradictory to your opinion, Bayle’s OST is actually too jarring for my ears during the fight and when I listen it from youtube, I find it quite generic and doesn’t have the rhythm like Midir OST
Tbh the camera with Bayle is really good
What I find interesting is how most bosses in Elden Ring+dlc at close to their prime, with two major exceptions being both the big dragon fights. They are both rotting corpses of what they used to be and they are still insanely powerful. Goes to show how strong a dragon can be
Another big issue with the camera in Bayle's fight, is that for some reason, you can only lock on to his head, whereas you can lock on to the legs and body of all the other dragons. It's impossible to fight Bayle using lock on when you are very close to him, because his head will be directly above you or even behind you, making the camera to go all over the place. This should be such an easy thing for FromSoftware to fix, and I'm baffled it hasn't been done so yet.
Bayle was an incredible fight. Took me about 6 tries and he was instantly my favorite dragon fight, and favorite boss of the DLC.
Regarding your self proclaimed “skill issue” with playing not-locked on due to struggling with camera management-have you ever tried playing while holding the controller with a claw grip (in your right hand only, left hand normal.) This involves slightly shifting your fingers so that your thumb is on the joystick, pointer finger has access to all 4 letter/shape buttons, and middle finger is on the bumper/triggers. That makes it much easier to whip the camera around while unlocked
I used to absolutely despise the copy-pasted wyvern dragon fights in Elden Ring, but at some point I figured out that it's much more fun to try and fight them like Midir, and almost exclusively go for attacks on their heads. They stagger and crit animation on wyverns is so satisfying. I just wish that they did a better job conveying that to the player. Midir and Bayle's fights are great because the game almost always puts their heads right in front of you during a punish window when they finish attacking. If you look at Bayle and Midir, you notice that their models are stooped over so that their heads are pretty much eye-level with the player. The main issue I have with the wyverns is that their heads are placed way too high up, and sometimes entirely out of reach for certain weapons. You can get a few hits in during the roar animation that always folllows a stomp attack, but sometimes that entire window is eaten up when the wyvern's head ended up behind you because you rolled forward and under the boss to dodge the attack. Obviously if you are under the wyvern you're going to attack it's legs instead of running up to hit the head that you probably can't even reach anyway.
And it's not even worth talking about the four-legged ancient dragon fights. Fromsoft gave up, and decided to make a 360° dragon fight where every attack has lightning or shockwave aoe cause the player has no incentive to be facing the front of the boss, and locking-on makes you want to throw up. Oh wait, there's a remembrance boss version with Godwyn lore? Oh, they just took the same shitty design, but added more aoe and deathblight. Thank you Dark Souls.
Placidusax is fine, idk. He's like a fat version of the ancient dragons, but less annoying to fight cause you can't go under him and mess up the lock-on camera really bad. His cool attacks are really fucking cool though, and I think it's fine to have a boss that exists just for that. Especially now that Bayle exists to make up for it.
I always thought the best solution for camera issues with big bosses would be to just zoom the camera out. Seems like a pretty straightforward solution.
Sinh from Dark Souls 2 is pretty slept on (ba dum tiss), hes one of my favorite dragon fights in the series.
For the time it was released, it was top notch. The dragons in the base game of DS3 couldn't compare, it took until Midir for that to change.
Sinh also loves spending anywhere between no and too much time in the air, there is so much RNG in that fight to determine wether you can even hit him or not.
great vid I really wish you brought Kalameet into the discussion though I understand this was meant to be about the 'modern' fights still I think it would have added something. subbed.
Appreciate it! Yeah not being able to discuss the older bosses in any detail is a weakness. Some day, I'll go through and replay them and get footage, but with the DLC and also working my job, I just don't have the bandwidth right now :/
idk what you mean about not being able to lock on midir bc imo the clips you showed without locking looked a bit disorienting. But I agree with your opinion although I am biased towards midir.
But Bale is the dragon I was praying for in this dlc and I was so happy to see him in the trailer as there was no dragon like midir because placidusax was cinematic and only cinematic as his moveset wasn't satisfying for me.
Bale's moveset was as vicious as Midir although the camera was a bigger issue for me than Midir while Bale also just looks really cool and has a fair moveset although some dodges are difficult but he has a lot of learning while midir was a bit more intuitive. (I'm so sorry this is so wordy)
Overall I rank your opinion as based.
Black Dragon Kalameet deserves a honourable mention for being the first decent dragon fight
Contrary to popular belief Midir is actually quite viable to fight while locked on, its how i fight him myself. To put it bluntly the statement that "locking on makes proper engagement extremely difficult." is complete f**king nonsense and you don't know what you're talking about there, and I'll go over why below.
The key to making it work is good postioning: you need to be close enough to be able to go in for attacks, but not too close either. Closer to medium distance which has some strengths, the biggest strength is that during the 5-hit berzerker combo atrack with this positioning all you need to do to avoid the last two hits is to simply walk backwards, no rolling required.
The only times i break lock on are the flying fire breath, the phase 2 laser (run under his tail) and the savage rush.
In fact i managed to beat Midir only taking three hits while playing mostly locked on:
Hit 1: me mistiming a roll through his fire breath after a combo (style thing i do)
Hit 2: getting too close while locked on (breaking my own rule) and getting hit by a humanity phantom that i couldn't see when he went for a fire breath, bad lock on postioning
Hit 3: bad postioning under Midir during his phase 2 laser attack getting hit st the end of it
Sorry if that was a bit of a rant, saying that locking onto Midir is bad is just wrong, with good postioning its an extremely viable way to fight him that enhances the specatacle of the fight.
I personally feel that Placidussax isn't a great fight, the runback is bullshit (its way too easy to fall to your death, be it into the void or to the next platform which is a lethal fall) he's an example of how not to have a boss teleport (Radagon is an even worse example) and the fight is just a slog. I actually think that Fortissax is the better base game dragon boss.
Bayle on the other hand I'm still unsure about, the way he can just charge you from the monent you enter the arena is just cheap as hell. The spectacle is great and Igon's VA f**king kills it, considering that Messmer won me over (the grab hitbox being one of my few complaints), maybe Bayel will win me over. However I'm not sure about that.
However i find it ironic that you complain about locking onto Midir yet were fighting Bayle locked-on, seriously I feel that Bayle is what i think people claim fighting Midir locked on is like.
"good positioning is an extreme viable way to fight him" that literally goes for ANY dragon boss fight in elden ring. IF you're not in a good position then your view is messy.
There was a sign on the ground that said to use scarlet rot.
So I whipped out the flower, thank God I am a Faith build.
Igon made this fight legendary. You can't think of Bayle without hearing "Curse you Bayleeee" in your head 🗣
I could be wrong, but I image there is some middle ground they could zoom out so that the fight is more readable, and you can appreciate more of the visuals, while still being close enough to maintain scale
I think fights where it’s easier to unlock the camera are less fun. That’s how i started out with bayle but realizing you can actually stand in front of him and watch for cues was awesome
i wonder if they could incorporate a zoom out in conjunction with the snappier camera rotation, so if the boss is above you, it zooms out etc
I adore bayle as much as the next person but i personally feel like he's SO dilapidated and injured that he genuinely feels about a tenth as dangerous as he should. Depite the fact he's still fierce and definitely deadly, he seems heavily neutured just by his design to me. Still love him! But i put midir and even placi above him.
Bayle is literally Midir with better cinematics and worse camera angles and hitboxes. All they had to do was not allow the player to get under bayle and it would be the best boss fight in the game.
really good video, keep it up 👍
Midir’s epic phase 2 move is him doing his 10 second long combo twice that leads to you chasing him around the arena for 20 seconds
Bayle has a better leadup with the Jagged Peak, lore with Placidusax and the Dragon Communion, and quest narrative with Igon, and his fight’s pacing is far more consistent and exhilirating
It’s not even close.
Regarding the aerial attack at 14:43, I used Bayle's claw opening up as a visual clue for when to dodge. Seemed to work pretty well for me cause I don't think I got hit with that move after figuring out the timing.
So kinda like Romina's spike flash?
I actually found Bayle's camera to be the clunkiest of the 3 and stayed locked off for most of the fight while with the other 2 I did it locked on. I am very partial to placidusax so I still like the fight more however I see the argument that bayle is better. All 3 are fantastic bosses and for me at least were a huge highlight of their respective games.
For me Bayle was beaten the 6th try, and he wasn't hard
But Darkeater Midir was beaten after over 150 tries
He was the hardest boss i ever fought on the gaming history 😅
I want to make a comment about the content of the video and add to it, because I really vibe with the topic. Thing is, I have nothing to add, because I 100% agree with everything you said! Sub earned
I just finished dark souls 3 earlier this year and I feel like midir one of the best boss fights in the series he has the most damage multiplier on his head compared to other dragons who has less damaged multipliers on their head and incentivizes You to actually attack the head
It’s a shame that the DLC performance sucks and that it stutters a lot on bayle and on the final boss.
I think that this is the #1 thing fromsoft work on right now because a lot of people can’t finish the game.
Can we just also acknowledge how good the npc summon is for this fight? It would pain me not to use Igon.
The voice acting from him is amazing, the fight is 100% fair (looking at you gaius) and fun, the music is spectacular, and if your weapon doesn’t do enough damage, just like the stormruler in DeS and DS3 there’s a weapon it gives you for the fight. The arena is sick too
Amazing fight in every way
"i like bayle because i'm good and it's okay if you suck"
one thing i think helps both bayle and placidusax is their body shapes. because placidusax is flat to the ground and bayle is very hunched, youre less likely to end up under their body getting screwed by the camera anywhere near as hard as you can with almost every other dragon in souls history
Music foe Bayless fight is absolutely incredible
Camera tracking is probably the bighest issue FromSoft needs to fix. A lot of times, I don't even see the boss, I just react to the camera moving as a potential telegraph. The prime example of this being the Dancing Lion fight.
Also, I absolutely LOVE Bayle. He's my favourite boss in FromSoft's already impressive catalogue of bosses(haven't played bloodborne). But when I was trying to learn him in the initial 20 or so rums, I found the he just kept pinning me against the wall with no space to counter or dodge. Even the Dancing Lion is guilty of this. Though now, I can bait out attacks to get him back to the center, those first few runs were NOT fun
The transition descent has a very clear sound que for when to dodge if you lose visibility
I love that the peak of dragon power is a beam of pure fire it’s cool
Good video, but you should work on making it more cinematic . (Example at 5:40 you don't showcase Placi's lightning strike whatsoever) Otherwise it's alright, I just want to see the bosses epic moves.
People keep saying calling midir best dragon is being a ds3 fanboy who can't get past the glory days. I loved bayle but damn, I can't put midir on number 2. He's the og.
Bayle had such a terrible camera that it just ruined the fight for me. Even while constantly retreating his attacks put him directly on top of you. Midir handled the camera much better. You can easily do the fight locked on and his attacks keep his head in front of rather than on top of your. I don't think you need to do any camera magic here, you just need to change the boss animations so that the basic attacks don't put the dragon's body directly on top of you.
Kalameet from DS was a pretty amazing fight, considering the back story. But Bayle and Plasidusax are a whole nother beast.
While being incredibly cinematic and cool, i think Bayle suffers from some issues like wanky hitbox,not enough punish windows on the head,awful camera. I think midir has a better moveset than bayle that allows for more counterplay and more damage to the head. His moveset feels more fair and challenging to me. I am also not a big fan of excessive aoe usage in the second phase of Bayle. Overall really cinematic boss tho.
Fighting Bayle genuinely fear me, big ass dragon with scary face, and buffed too, but my fear was gone when i summon Igon
CURSE YOU BAYLEEEEEEEEEE
Just saying
Midir doesn't have someone screaming "CURSE YOU"
I play claw and can use thumb to aim and look around while ready to dodge with index finger and attack with middle finger, helps a lot with those look off moments
Midir is still my favourite, I agree with a lot on what you said with Placidusaxx which is why Bayle is generally a better fight than him, because it’s similar to Midir’s aggression. But Midir’s fear factor is what does it for me, I’m genuinely scared to face him and unlike mostly every other Souls boss I’ve only ever beaten Midir once. Even though he’s probably easy by comparisson to most Elden Ring bosses, like Pontiff Sulyvahn and Ludwig I find him psychologically tough because of the fear factor.
Placidusax and Divine dragon are the best imo. Yeah they're easy but goddamn those are some of the most epic boss fights FromSoft has ever done
Functionally Midir is still the best dragon boss fight. In terms of presentation and themes Bayle takes the cake.
Bayle's snappy camera just makes me nauseous :(
Bayles very close but midir might be my favourite bossfight ever
when an enemy is large i lock on when theyre in view and turn it off if theyre going to make the camera wonky. That's the trade off when youre playing 3rd person games against large enemies. i think its also a result of the impatience to win and get the battle over with. If we were more patient, which im not, we wouldnt put ourselves in those compromised positions just to get an extra hit in. Thats also why its tough to critique bosses because some may agitate you because of your particular play style and habits. I'd love a video where you get two players discussing what bosses were hard for them and then you give each other advice/watch each other's fight against it in real time.
Why would zooming out ruin that sense of scale? You would see how tiny you are compared to the creature.
OG kalameet is my personal favorite even if he wasn't in the video discussion. As cool as the massive, beast like dragons are I would like Fromsoft to revisit the smaller agile dragons like kalameet again.
I realise I'm in a tiny minority but I honestly think Sinh from DS2 is the best dragon.
from a cinematic perspective = placidusax
from a gameplay perspective = midir
from a lore perspective = bayle/midir/placidusax
bayle kinda sits inbetween placidusax & midir
A good note of scale is the difference between Monster hunter World vs Rise. The monsters, while remaining similar in proportion to world, seem so smaller in scale because of the camera
What’s your opinion on consort radahn?
The visuals are by far my favorite of any dragon fight, but mechanically I still prefer Midir.
Could be interesting to see a fight againts a human size opponent from a dragons persepective. Do they even see anything during a breath attack?
I personally prefer midir as he feels less janky and I don’t feel like I have to lock off except for the move where he runs across the arena and will climb over you. If locking off was how fromsoft wanted us to deal with these moves then I think they should have added a sign in the tutorial saying that some attacks are better dodged locked off.
"I think they should have added a sign in the tutorial saying that some attacks are better dodged locked off."
I disagree. From was always about figuring it out yourself, and that continues here.
Bayle has become my fav boss.
Would've liked if you mentioned DS1 and DS2 dragons too. Theres some cool (and terrrible!) Dragons there
DS2 has Snith in a DLC which was relatively nice, but DS1 dragons are too outdated and feel too one note at this point.
@@Leonhart_93 maybe, Kalameet is still top tier tho
@@Malxer I remember Kalameet very well. The moveset is too basic for this day and age, and the player character is so incredibly slow to compensate. The stamina even regenerated at half the speed it does in Elden Ring, it felt quite turn based.
The part where you talk about Scale, I had always theorized that it should be possible to zoom out the camera and it would work much better, It Does, but you lose a bit of the Grandeur, But i recently started playing Genshin Impact (Flame me if you want, I was bored waiting for SotE so i played it bc it has some souls like elements... i've already played Nioh series, Wo Long, Remnant, Lies of P and other games like those.) And in the 4th act of the game, you fight a Boss named Shouki no Kami which everyone called Scaramouche. And in that fight, they zoom out the camera and pull it upwards... It does lose a bit of the grandeur since they zoomed out, but it got me thinking about the "Pull it upwards" part. So, I asked a friend of mine that knows how to Mod DS3 a little bit to just... change the lock on nodes for Midir. We made them higher, and me moved them backwards a bit, locked on his upper body, this inadvertently zoomed in the camera, so we zoomed it back out a bit so it was at the right scale... and it worked... Really well as well... We kept the grandeur, made it so the camera didn't throw its self on the attacks where he moved his head a lot, it also made it so there were less times the camera was pressing into the ground.
The lock on in Midirs fight is so jank, it always fails.
Baylee’s lock on only fails when he’s doing his phase transition.
yeah he definitely is. Fromsoft never had a perfect dragon boss before but I think this is it, his only issues are the camera being bad when against the wall and the lock on sometimes breaking during the phase 2 opening attack.
the main fix for bayle is to be able to move the lock on target between his chest and torso