Not at all balanced with the trade offs. I have nothing against VFD systems, but the video is NOT balanced. VFDs are less efficient (use more electricity) than regular systems, and result in more cycles, not less cycles, during normal every day use! They always gloss over this fact by noting that once you start to use water the system stays on till you stop using water. True, that's good! But it also starts up every time you flush the toilet or wash your hands. Also, if the motor has to turn very slowly it's less efficient than going at optimum speed although admittedly a good VFD will minimize this effect.
Ive had both and have come to the conclusion that I would much rather have a simple pressure switch than one that turns the pump on every time I brush my teeth. I have 4 people that have constant pressure system that I know of and three have had EXPENSIVE problems, they are not DIY friendly for repairs and in my case the pump EXPERT sold my parts that broke because the orginal wiring was installed wrong. Pump installers love them because they make huge profit and future profit. Simple is sometimes better
So very true! There is a reason the Cockroach has been unchanged for millions of years, and a reason why standard pressure tank systems are still in use 200 years after they were invented! No need to change the design!
Hi Bee Cave, Why not just use a conventional system with a pressure switch setting of 40 to 60psi, then use a pressure regulator valve set to 35psi to get the constant pressure?
Pressure regulator valves can give you the desired effect for much less money. But, there are 2 main problems. First of all, you need to understand that this will greatly increase the backpressure on the pump. While that won't hurt the pump, it could easily damage the drop pipe (assuming we are talking about a submersible pump). If your drop pipe can't handle the extra pressure caused by the closing valve, then you could break that pipe and drop your pump in the well. The second issue is that it is impossible to have a pumpsaver or other dry run protection device when using a pressure regulator valve. When the valve closes, the amp draw of the pump will be very similar to a pump running without water and that will cause the pumpsaver to shut off the pump. You can have one or the other, but not both. The only way to have both is with constant pressure. I am not saying this is the best product in all situations. I am just saying that the pressure regulator valve is not necessarily the best choice. In the right application, you can get the results you want. But be careful.
@Bee Cave Drilling If the pressure regulator was after the pressure tank, how would it cause extra backpressure to the pump? Isn't the pump just turning on at 30psi when signaled by the pressure switch, them off at 50psi when the pressure tank is full?
This is what the azzhat contractor we have tried to sell us as a “constant pressure system.” Even after being told - in writing - by the county building official (also a certified plumber) that what they installed is not what my contract calls for, they have not replaced it. We are suing them as soon as our old house sells, for breach of contract in addition to other problems. (Don’t be like this contractor. Make sure people are getting what they agreed to pay for.)
@@spellcheckforyou Excellent idea. I need to try this. Best of both worlds: constant pressure, reduced runtime on the motor (in comparison to a standard constant pressure system), and reduced start-up surge power requirement (because of the use of a soft-start pump).
600 well 8gpm yield 10 ft static level. I've got a .5 hp pump in there now producing 5gpm. What would you recommend 4 people in a residential home, 3 bath laundry dishwasher and 3 sprinklers 4.5 months out of the year. 1.5 hp pump at 500ft.? 1 phase. Or a 2hp pump at 600ft 3 phase? Or a 1hp pump 600 ft down? Traditional system with a diaphragm tank 44 gallon tank? Or a 60 gallon tank? Or use a constant pressure system with the same pump setup. Pentair? Goulds or a Franklin system. I think I can get 12 or 13 gpm on the well What would be a good setup to use the well to or around it's capacity knowing it's a residential home. Thanks
Did you say you can put pressure tanks inline? I am dealing with a shallow well, so we’ve never had great pressure and we on occasion have a low water table too.
Yes, you can add a pressure tank to a system to give you storage of pressurized water. But, just adding a pressure tank may not be all that you need. If that doesn't fix the problem, consult a water well professional to help you set up a proper pumping system.
sorry if I'm way off, but.. if I understood correctly, (and I might be mistaken).. but, why not install a pump switch with a 5psi differential (instead of the 20psi standard differential).. ?? wouldn't that give you "constant pressure"? Don't understand the advantage of the fancy constant pump pressure system, when all it does is turn on the pump 'sooner' which can be accomplished by an adjustable differential cut in and cut switch? please educate me if I'm wrong. Thanks
David, you are right and you are wrong. If you have a hard start pump (normal single phase pump) then you have to limit the starts of the pump. For small pumps under 2 hp, we typically want enough pressure tank capacity to have the pump run for at least one minute. For instance, if you have a 10 gpm pump, then you need the pressure tank to hold at least 10 gallons of water. I am not talking about the total volume of the tank. Instead i mean the drawdown. For a standard bladder tank, that is roughly 30% of the total volume of the tank. So, an 85 gallon pressure tank (if the pressure is set up right) will give you 23 gallons of drawdown. That would let a 10 gpm pump fill it for 2.3 minutes. That is all based on a 20 psi spread between on and off. If you cut that down to a 5 psi spread, you will get 1/4 of that volume at 5.75 gallons. Then you would need at least 2 pressure tanks to get a one minute run time. The one minute run time is an absolute minimum. Most of the time we try for 2 minutes. If your pump is 2 hp, the 2 minutes is highly recommended. As your pumps get bigger, the run times go up. This is to allow the motor to dissipate the heat that is created during the start of the motor. You can certainly violate these rules, but you will pay for it with pump life. Where the constant pressure shines is on a site where you have big pumps. For instance a 5 hp 35 gpm pump ideally would have 4 minutes of run time. That is 140 gallons of drawdown. That is 6 of those 85 gallon tanks just for a 20 psi spread. If you wanted 5 psi, you would need 24 tanks. Or, you can run the whole thing on a variable frequency drive with a 20 gallon tank. So, this really depends on your circumstances.
Good vid. Thanks for the info. One small comment/Q; you said that's an 85g tank? No way there's 85 gallons of water in that thing. Looks like a 40, or less when you consider the air bag inside. Consider the size of a 50 gallon drum . . .
You are correct. The tank actually has a total volume of 85 gallons. But, with the air chamber, you will likely only get around 30 gallons of water in there.
That depends on how good your solar power system is. If you have a really good system with reliable voltage, then you can consider constant pressure. But, the controller requires a very constant voltage. If the power supply is not very consistent, then you will can't use a vfd. My guess is that for most people, you should stick to conventional pumps for this type of power source.
There are controllers that will work with your single phase power and run a single phase motor. There are controllers that will input 3 phase power and output 3 phase power. But, the majority of the residential systems that we install have a 1 phase 230 volt input and a 3 phase 230 volt output.
The constant pressure systems are more efficient. However, for small residential systems, the difference is minimal. For large commercial systems, they can see a significant savings on power consumption.
You always need a relief valve in any pressurized system. The relief valve is not there to stop water hammering or surges. Its job is to blow if the pump continues to run and builds too much pressure. That way you don't blow something up. The way to stop water hammering is with a properly placed pressure tank.
I have a large tank which supplies pressure to a shop and small apartment, and also pumps water up a hill about 150’ elevation to cattle water tanks. The cattle drink out of the tanks which have valves which open to allow water from the well to enter the cattle tanks when they get low, a few inches down. Anyway, whenever the water is used from either site, the well pump is constantly on-off-on-off. I am wondering if the rolls of line going up to the barn have too much compliance? Do I need to put backflow valves in my supply line to the barn?
i doubt that is the problem. i bet you have a small leak somewhere that is letting water out. Another possibility is that you have a small leak in your check valve letting water flow back into the storage tank. First, close all discharge valves and see if that fixes the problem. If it does, then the problem is in the distribution system. If not, then the problem is in the check valve.
A suggestion is to put a bigger pressure tank on your system. The really small tanks that normally come with those systems are too small in my opinion. A bigger tank will allow the pump to run a little longer each time and then run less often.
@@georgeswca GP, yes you are correct. PVC check valves are rarely the right choice for pumping systems. Most of them are not spring loaded and you always want a spring loaded check valve for pressurized water systems. Brass or Stainless Steel spring loaded checks are the right choice.
Hi I am trying to connect to a Franklin Electric SubDrive 75 which is a VFD for a well. Says it shouldn't be used with GFCI or externally regulated generator. How do I know if my generator is externally regulated? I have a 5000W Generac generator. Can I use an inverter generator?
I would reach out to the manufacturer of the generator to see. But, I would expect that it would run the controller just fine. Just make sure you start the generator first and let it warm up for 30 seconds before you plug the pump controller into the generator. And then make sure you unplug the pump controller before you shut off the generator. You never want to send power to the pump controller while the generator is starting up or shutting down.
@@NightOwl_Monitoring-tk6seAppreciate the response. I think I have a Honda generator that has Digital Automatic Voltage Regulation that might be closer to what Franklin Electric wants. I called Franklin and left them a message.
If the pump can't build enough pressure to turn off the pressure switch then you either have a leak downstream or the pump is not capable of building enough pressure. Close all discharge valves to isolate the system and see if the pump is capable of building shut off pressure.
Yes, in some cases. But it depends upon which motor you have. You probably have a 1 phase 230 volt motor running your pump. Most drives are designed to run a 3 phase pump. There are a few models designed specifically to run a 1 phase motor. One example is a Goulds 1AS15. You input 1 phase 230 volt power and it will run a 1 phase 230 volt pump with a range of 1/2 hp through 2 hp. But, in many cases, we have to change the motor to get you on a drive.
@@jimblair1 Thank you for your careful answer. I've looked into that Goulds 1AS15, I believe it's perfect for the pump we have. There's currently an 80 day delay in deliveries on those...
How far can your pump be away from your well or does it matter? My well and pump is under a deck I want to move the pump maybe 20 feet in to my garage.
It may not matter but i can't be sure. It depends on many things like the type of pump, the change in elevation, etc. I recommend you seek the help of a professional if you are not sure.
Most water well contractors sell and install standard and constant pressure systems. But you will have to contact your local well professional and ask them directly. That would be a little hard for me to know.
They are always saying there are less motor starts with a constant pressure system, but this is not necessarily true. It depends how you use it. Example: Suppose you are obsessed with always washing your hands. Every time you wash your hands with constant system, the pump will go on. With regular decent size tank, the pump may go on only once every 10 washes or so. If you turn your water on and off often (washing hands, washing dishes one at a time, etc, etc, tank is better. For something like watering your lawn, constant system is better. Taking a shower? Do you want to hear the motor on the whole time you are taking the shower? Most of these constant system videos have an agenda. They want to sell you the controller and claim it's better. It's better sometimes, and constant pressure is nice, but there are down sides. The controller is a sophisticated electronic piece of equipment, and can break. A mechanical pressure switch is extremely simple, extremely cheap and lasts a long time. The design of these mechanical pressure switches are like natures design of the cockroach. Unchanged for millions of years. Works perfectly, no need to change. The design of the mechanical pressure switches have probably remained basically unchanged for like 70 years.
Washing your hands does not turn a constant pressure system pump on as there is always enough water in the small pressure tank for these minimal use applications, i.e. using under a few gallons of water. If you can hear the pump while taking a shower you have an extremely loud pump, a pump that is extremely close to the shower with no wall/ceiling insulation or one that has been installed incorrectly.
@@davidmichael9696 Not true. You can only turn on the faucet for a few seconds before the pump comes on. And if it does not come on with this washing of hands it will come on with the next washing of hands. The pump HAS to come on very soon or the system will not be constant pressure! Come on! It's physics!
If you send power to your pump you will always have a full start on that motor. There is no variable speed to these sump pump motors. So could you explain how you would have a soft start?
Rick, the way these systems work is that the controller (called a variable frequency drive) varies the frequency of the electricity going to the pump. The speed of the motor is affected by varying the frequency of the electricity.
Hmmm, interesting, same concept as an inverter air conditioner. They also have cheaper controllers that don't provide a soft start. The cheap controllers vary the flow by varying the opening size of a physical valve. Obviously the inverter type sounds much better if you don't mind spending the money. I imagine you need a special motor compatible with the varying frequency. Am I correct? Or can you use any old pump motor?
so.. with constant pressure you don't need a big tank to maintain pressure.. because you are depending on the well and the pump.. entirely.. the pressure tank is nothing more than a 5psi buffer.. you could put a 300 gallon pressure tank on and the constant pressure system would not utilize it. Or anything. This means is your well had better be able to handle all the requests for water, because there is no built up storage. Whatever resides in the well bore is all you got. Slam your lawn with awesome pressure from the sprinklers.. until the well is dry. Not sure I like being left with no storage
I agree. Storage is always better. This type of pumping system is available as a submersible pump in your well or a booster system on your storage tank. So you can have the storage system you want and the constant pressure. But, constant pressure is not best for all applications. I use them only about 60% of the time. It depends on many factors.
A properly designed system will never run the well dry unless your well has dropped far off from its normal production. A good way to design a system is to size the pump to the well, so the pump running full out will not draw the well down below the pump intake. If you are depending on a large tank to keep your well from running out of water, you have a problem. We went thru that very situation, where the well slowed down and we were running out of water and would have to run and shut off the pump to keep it from burning up. So we put in a 500 gallon storage tank. It wasn’t long before we realized the tank was never getting full, and eventually we were running out of water again. That’s when the decision was made to drill a new well.
+ccoraxfan yes thats the way things are heading the monodrive system used to be able to handle 3k sf house 3 baths, family of 6 + irrigation. now the monodrive goes into a 5 min recovery timeout watering. well is 12yo. i figure add the storage tank for now
Yes, it is true that some wells will slow down and eventually completely stop flowing. This can occur for many reasons including, packer failure, collapsed casing, drought, screen clogging and many more. But, it is also true that some wells produce less water than desirable simply due to a lack of porosity. Depending what type of water production zone you have, the formation can restrict the flow. So, a well that is weaker than the pump is not always an indication that you have problems.
+Jim Blair yes we are in northern mass / southern New Hampshire. drought is classified as extreme currently. but the problem was first experience in the spring. so we shorten the watering cycles and increased time between cycles but some days it's very diminished. I do think part of it is the Franklin monodrive itself. all this talk about tiny little tanks the reason being there is a reliance entirely on the well. Because of constant pressure you could put a 300 gallon pressure tank on make no difference. Now that it's wired in my options are rip it all out or add the storage tank after the monodrive. which raises a whole bunch of other issues like float valves. can't use a float switch so I'm a little worried about relying on that vs electronics switch
Yes. To get that high of pressure, you will need a multi-stage pump. The most common are submersibles but there are booster pumps that can do that high as well.
Yes, the water cannon style of booster pump can easily do that. They are used mainly for car wash applications. I use the Goulds brand and the model they use is the GBC and GBS. You likely won't find them on the internet as they are usually sold only through professional dealers.@@bluestingerborg
The way less starts are achieved has to do with usage. For instance, if you have a 20 gpm pump and a 10 gpm irrigation zone running, a standard pump will cycle on and off every few minutes. But, a constant pressure system will slow down and continue running at slow speeds to maintain a constant flow and only one start for that zone. If your demand is small amounts just for a house, then you won't see this benefit. But, the other benefit is that none of the starts are hard starts, so they really don't cause the damage that hard starts do.
With constant pressure, every time the washing machine or dishwasher stops using water the pump will go off, and then when it starts using water again, the pump will go on. So it depends on the design of the appliances you are using. For example, some washing machines have a cycle where they spin the clothes and then inject water into the clothes at ten second intervals to make sure all of the soap is out of the clothes. Well with this design the pump will go on and off again every ten seconds if constant pressure.
Just buy a Cycle Stop Valve only $63 for CSV125 and install yourself or have handyman do it and enjoy the constant pressure and fewer starts longer pump life and cheaper power use in an hour or so. The cheapest controller he is talking about is over $300 plus service call etc. Then whenever your tank goes out change it out with a $100 or so 4 gallon tank. Saves lots of space and money. Or better yet just change it all out now with the sidekick CSV system or the smaller tank all at once all for less than service call to replace a controller.
@@jeromebrown8903 Yes you can. I used it with an 80 gallon in ground tank until it needed replacing and then I got a 4 gallon tank and redid my system so tank is above ground with stainless steel T setup and stainless high quality gauges etc , but its so small its easy to insulate. I made a cover for mine from a piece of plastic double walled 18 inch culvert I had lying around . I got a cheap tank a waterworks on amazon for about $60 but I can replace it easy in about 20 minutes or less. If you live in cold climate you could dig a hole and put the whole system underground but not in soil contact with a ribbon thermostatic pipe heater (powered from well wiring). If I lived up north I would buy one of the cheap small freezers and spray undercoating or line ex type spray on outside line hole with treated plywood and put the whole system in the freezer (used one is cheap)and put it down in the wooden box. Put a couple of unions on it for quick disconnect etc. lift the whole thing out if it needs maintenance. The freezer is just a well insulated cabinet. A large cooler would also work or just a heavy duty plastic storage container the only real difference in going to a small tank is they generally have a 3/4 inch fitting instead of a 1 inch or 1 1/4 inch , but this can be stepped down easily and a T also makes this easy. Just go to Cyclestopvalves.com and look the whole systems with T etc are more expensive but not much if any more than high quality separate components if you want to replace tank etc. Give them a call . They are more than helpful and I have called several times and have only talked to 2 different people Gary the owner and one other person. For more money you can also get an adjustable pressure metal housing valve. You can buy on amazon too if you know what you need. You do have to match the valves to the size of the pump if its IIRC 2hp or more need a different valve.
Be careful with the constant pressure system. We bought a house with one. Also the well is close to the house. So with the pump always on, the noise from the pump resonates through the ground and into the house. So if you are sensitive to low frequency sounds, as my wife is, the noise can drive you crazy. Anyone else have this problem? We are close to pulling it out and replacing with a standard system. But we also have a geothermal heating system, and need to figure out if the constant pressure system is somehow necessary for the geothermal.
Ralph, no a cycle stop valve and a constant pressure controller are not the same thing. Although they can achieve similar results in most situations. A cycle stop valve is a mechanical way of maintaining a consistent pressure while a constant pressure controller is an electronic way of maintaining a constant pressure. Cycle stop valves work great as long as the pipe between the pump and the valve can handle the discharge pressure that the pump can generate at dead head. If the pipe is too weak to handle that extra pressure, then the pipe will burst. If the pipe is holding up a submersible pump, then you get to go fishing to try to get your pump back.
@@jimblair1 I'm curious on how many times you have seen the backpressure cause issues in total? Installing pumps on piping that cannot handle the pump's max pressure (dead head) rating isn't a good practice anyways.
@@samualosten5212 Backpressure never causes issues as long as you have the system set up properly. Always have a check valve in line to stop back flow. Always have a pressure tank and relief valve set to the right pressures. And make sure your plumbing is rated to handle the pressure you are making. Then you don't have to worry about those things.
Yes, the CSV will work in some applications. But, despite what the manufacturer says, they are not the perfect answer to every problem. For instance, if you put that valve on a well head that has pvc production pipe, you are likely to damage the production pipe due to the excessive pressure created when the valve closes. Yes, in some cases the CSV will work. It will never be as efficient as a true vfd, but it also costs a lot less to install a CSV over a VFD. Also keep in mind that water quality issues can damage a CSV over time so the longevity of the product can be an issue depending upon the quality of the water.
Yes you can use Cycle Stop valve for constant pressure and it works great I bought a 50 PSI one for $63 3 years ago and it has worked flawlessly Don't let these installers tell you otherwise. Use a 4 gallon tank also with no issues .I did buy a stainless steel T separately on amazon $134 tank $79 CSV valve $63 I installed the Cycle stop valve in a union to make it so I could replace it easily or put back in PVC in its place but I have never had to. Just do it you will be happy with it. I used the CSV125. I had a bad well motor before that 3 wire with control box and PVC 1 1/4 inch downpipes. so at the same time I replaced pump with soft start Grundfos 3/4hp 10 GPM well motor and replaced the pvc pipe with HDPE pipe and added a rope to pump. Now I can easily pull the pump up by hand but easier with helper for first 50 feet I rigged a block on a tripod to run rope through. Just tie it on back of vehicle or riding lawnmower and have one person guide pipe out while one drives away slowly or do what I do use a remote winch on vehicle and do it all yourself.I could now chang my whole system out in about 3 hours if needed. PVC gets brittle with age and crack when it bends mine was 20 foot glued sections not threaded.
No with the constant pressure system or the Cycle Stop Valve which is much cheaper you decide what pressure you want and set it but you can have 2 separate setups that Y off if you want lower pressure for something such as a lower pressure run for open loop geothermal to save well pump energy
Cycle Stop Valves have their place in a water system, but they have some downsides. We use them occasionally, but you have to be careful. The biggest problem is the backpressure that is created can damage the production pipe in a deep well that has pvc or poly piping. But, yes, they do work and they are much cheaper.
Great video. Explained in easy to understand terms. I am a well pump contractor in tulsa, oklahoma and I don't disagree with anything the man said.
Well balanced presentation! Really set forth the pros and cons of each.
Very helpful video. Great overview and much appreciated - especially the discussion of options, pros and cons.
Excellent review!! Great, really balanced summary of trade-offs. Thanks!!!!!
Not at all balanced with the trade offs. I have nothing against VFD systems, but the video is NOT balanced. VFDs are less efficient (use more electricity) than regular systems, and result in more cycles, not less cycles, during normal every day use! They always gloss over this fact by noting that once you start to use water the system stays on till you stop using water. True, that's good! But it also starts up every time you flush the toilet or wash your hands. Also, if the motor has to turn very slowly it's less efficient than going at optimum speed although admittedly a good VFD will minimize this effect.
Ive had both and have come to the conclusion that I would much rather have a simple pressure switch than one that turns the pump on every time I brush my teeth. I have 4 people that have constant pressure system that I know of and three have had EXPENSIVE problems, they are not DIY friendly for repairs and in my case the pump EXPERT sold my parts that broke because the orginal wiring was installed wrong. Pump installers love them because they make huge profit and future profit. Simple is sometimes better
So very true! There is a reason the Cockroach has been unchanged for millions of years, and a reason why standard pressure tank systems are still in use 200 years after they were invented! No need to change the design!
Top video....finally found one that gets right to the key points.
Great presentation. You made it very easy to understand. Thanks!
Thanks I found this video very informative and useful in designing my system updates nice of you to post this.
Hi Bee Cave, Why not just use a conventional system with a pressure switch setting of 40 to 60psi, then use a pressure regulator valve set to 35psi to get the constant pressure?
Pressure regulator valves can give you the desired effect for much less money. But, there are 2 main problems. First of all, you need to understand that this will greatly increase the backpressure on the pump. While that won't hurt the pump, it could easily damage the drop pipe (assuming we are talking about a submersible pump). If your drop pipe can't handle the extra pressure caused by the closing valve, then you could break that pipe and drop your pump in the well. The second issue is that it is impossible to have a pumpsaver or other dry run protection device when using a pressure regulator valve. When the valve closes, the amp draw of the pump will be very similar to a pump running without water and that will cause the pumpsaver to shut off the pump. You can have one or the other, but not both. The only way to have both is with constant pressure. I am not saying this is the best product in all situations. I am just saying that the pressure regulator valve is not necessarily the best choice. In the right application, you can get the results you want. But be careful.
@@jimblair1 thanks for the overview on the pros/cons.
@Bee Cave Drilling If the pressure regulator was after the pressure tank, how would it cause extra backpressure to the pump? Isn't the pump just turning on at 30psi when signaled by the pressure switch, them off at 50psi when the pressure tank is full?
This is what the azzhat contractor we have tried to sell us as a “constant pressure system.” Even after being told - in writing - by the county building official (also a certified plumber) that what they installed is not what my contract calls for, they have not replaced it. We are suing them as soon as our old house sells, for breach of contract in addition to other problems. (Don’t be like this contractor. Make sure people are getting what they agreed to pay for.)
@@spellcheckforyou Excellent idea. I need to try this. Best of both worlds: constant pressure, reduced runtime on the motor (in comparison to a standard constant pressure system), and reduced start-up surge power requirement (because of the use of a soft-start pump).
No comparison! My constant pressure system is awesome. Grundfos all the way!
Im not a plumber but i love plumbing and loved this video lullz
I did 120 storage with grundfoss soft start pump .
Thank you for your video!
600 well 8gpm yield 10 ft static level. I've got a .5 hp pump in there now producing 5gpm.
What would you recommend 4 people in a residential home, 3 bath laundry dishwasher and 3 sprinklers 4.5 months out of the year.
1.5 hp pump at 500ft.? 1 phase.
Or a 2hp pump at 600ft 3 phase?
Or a 1hp pump 600 ft down?
Traditional system with a diaphragm tank 44 gallon tank? Or a 60 gallon tank?
Or use a constant pressure system with the same pump setup.
Pentair? Goulds or a Franklin system.
I think I can get 12 or 13 gpm on the well
What would be a good setup to use the well to or around it's capacity knowing it's a residential home.
Thanks
Hi please make video on normal and standard flow difference.
Thanks in advance
Did you say you can put pressure tanks inline? I am dealing with a shallow well, so we’ve never had great pressure and we on occasion have a low water table too.
Yes, you can add a pressure tank to a system to give you storage of pressurized water. But, just adding a pressure tank may not be all that you need. If that doesn't fix the problem, consult a water well professional to help you set up a proper pumping system.
If you had a 40-60psi pressure switch and then a pressure regulator set to 40psi after the switch and tank, would you have a constant 40psi?
Yes. If your goal is just constant pressure, then that would achieve the results.
sorry if I'm way off, but.. if I understood correctly, (and I might be mistaken).. but, why not install a pump switch with a 5psi differential (instead of the 20psi standard differential).. ?? wouldn't that give you "constant pressure"? Don't understand the advantage of the fancy constant pump pressure system, when all it does is turn on the pump 'sooner' which can be accomplished by an adjustable differential cut in and cut switch? please educate me if I'm wrong. Thanks
David, you are right and you are wrong. If you have a hard start pump (normal single phase pump) then you have to limit the starts of the pump. For small pumps under 2 hp, we typically want enough pressure tank capacity to have the pump run for at least one minute. For instance, if you have a 10 gpm pump, then you need the pressure tank to hold at least 10 gallons of water. I am not talking about the total volume of the tank. Instead i mean the drawdown. For a standard bladder tank, that is roughly 30% of the total volume of the tank. So, an 85 gallon pressure tank (if the pressure is set up right) will give you 23 gallons of drawdown. That would let a 10 gpm pump fill it for 2.3 minutes. That is all based on a 20 psi spread between on and off. If you cut that down to a 5 psi spread, you will get 1/4 of that volume at 5.75 gallons. Then you would need at least 2 pressure tanks to get a one minute run time.
The one minute run time is an absolute minimum. Most of the time we try for 2 minutes. If your pump is 2 hp, the 2 minutes is highly recommended. As your pumps get bigger, the run times go up. This is to allow the motor to dissipate the heat that is created during the start of the motor. You can certainly violate these rules, but you will pay for it with pump life. Where the constant pressure shines is on a site where you have big pumps. For instance a 5 hp 35 gpm pump ideally would have 4 minutes of run time. That is 140 gallons of drawdown. That is 6 of those 85 gallon tanks just for a 20 psi spread. If you wanted 5 psi, you would need 24 tanks. Or, you can run the whole thing on a variable frequency drive with a 20 gallon tank. So, this really depends on your circumstances.
Good vid. Thanks for the info. One small comment/Q; you said that's an 85g tank? No way there's 85 gallons of water in that thing. Looks like a 40, or less when you consider the air bag inside. Consider the size of a 50 gallon drum . . .
You are correct. The tank actually has a total volume of 85 gallons. But, with the air chamber, you will likely only get around 30 gallons of water in there.
wow you really explained it all in details thanks... but which one is better for off grid power (solar)?
That depends on how good your solar power system is. If you have a really good system with reliable voltage, then you can consider constant pressure. But, the controller requires a very constant voltage. If the power supply is not very consistent, then you will can't use a vfd. My guess is that for most people, you should stick to conventional pumps for this type of power source.
Do VFD controllers convert from single phase household to 3-phase power to the pump?
There are controllers that will work with your single phase power and run a single phase motor. There are controllers that will input 3 phase power and output 3 phase power. But, the majority of the residential systems that we install have a 1 phase 230 volt input and a 3 phase 230 volt output.
which uses more power?
The constant pressure systems are more efficient. However, for small residential systems, the difference is minimal. For large commercial systems, they can see a significant savings on power consumption.
great video.. thanks..
Do you recommend a VFD as part of the constant pressure system?
in constant pressure system, do you still need Pressure relief valve for surge o r hammering.
You always need a relief valve in any pressurized system. The relief valve is not there to stop water hammering or surges. Its job is to blow if the pump continues to run and builds too much pressure. That way you don't blow something up. The way to stop water hammering is with a properly placed pressure tank.
I have a large tank which supplies pressure to a shop and small apartment, and also pumps water up a hill about 150’ elevation to cattle water tanks. The cattle drink out of the tanks which have valves which open to allow water from the well to enter the cattle tanks when they get low, a few inches down. Anyway, whenever the water is used from either site, the well pump is constantly on-off-on-off. I am wondering if the rolls of line going up to the barn have too much compliance? Do I need to put backflow valves in my supply line to the barn?
i doubt that is the problem. i bet you have a small leak somewhere that is letting water out. Another possibility is that you have a small leak in your check valve letting water flow back into the storage tank.
First, close all discharge valves and see if that fixes the problem. If it does, then the problem is in the distribution system. If not, then the problem is in the check valve.
A suggestion is to put a bigger pressure tank on your system. The really small tanks that normally come with those systems are too small in my opinion. A bigger tank will allow the pump to run a little longer each time and then run less often.
@@jimblair1 Always install a BRASS check valve. PVC often breaks and causes problems.
@@georgeswca GP, yes you are correct. PVC check valves are rarely the right choice for pumping systems. Most of them are not spring loaded and you always want a spring loaded check valve for pressurized water systems. Brass or Stainless Steel spring loaded checks are the right choice.
Hi I am trying to connect to a Franklin Electric SubDrive 75 which is a VFD for a well. Says it shouldn't be used with GFCI or externally regulated generator. How do I know if my generator is externally regulated? I have a 5000W Generac generator. Can I use an inverter generator?
I would reach out to the manufacturer of the generator to see. But, I would expect that it would run the controller just fine. Just make sure you start the generator first and let it warm up for 30 seconds before you plug the pump controller into the generator. And then make sure you unplug the pump controller before you shut off the generator. You never want to send power to the pump controller while the generator is starting up or shutting down.
@@NightOwl_Monitoring-tk6seAppreciate the response. I think I have a Honda generator that has Digital Automatic Voltage Regulation that might be closer to what Franklin Electric wants. I called Franklin and left them a message.
What would make pump not cut out? New pressure switch was put on thinking it was faulty
If the pump can't build enough pressure to turn off the pressure switch then you either have a leak downstream or the pump is not capable of building enough pressure. Close all discharge valves to isolate the system and see if the pump is capable of building shut off pressure.
@jimblair1 thank you I'll try that
Alright, now is it possible to use the same pump you had with a 40/60 system and upgrade only the controller to drive the same pump you had?
Yes, in some cases. But it depends upon which motor you have. You probably have a 1 phase 230 volt motor running your pump. Most drives are designed to run a 3 phase pump. There are a few models designed specifically to run a 1 phase motor. One example is a Goulds 1AS15. You input 1 phase 230 volt power and it will run a 1 phase 230 volt pump with a range of 1/2 hp through 2 hp. But, in many cases, we have to change the motor to get you on a drive.
@@jimblair1 Thank you for your careful answer. I've looked into that Goulds 1AS15, I believe it's perfect for the pump we have. There's currently an 80 day delay in deliveries on those...
@@wwindsunrain i have one i can sell you. Contact me directly. Jimblair@beecavedrilling.com
How far can your pump be away from your well or does it matter? My well and pump is under a deck I want to move the pump maybe 20 feet in to my garage.
It may not matter but i can't be sure. It depends on many things like the type of pump, the change in elevation, etc. I recommend you seek the help of a professional if you are not sure.
Can you tell me if the people who sell the standard wellheads sell the constant pressure system?
Most water well contractors sell and install standard and constant pressure systems. But you will have to contact your local well professional and ask them directly. That would be a little hard for me to know.
Worst mistake of my life was putting in a constant pressure system in a new house.
Why? I am about to maybe do the same "mistake"
They are always saying there are less motor starts with a constant pressure system, but this is not necessarily true. It depends how you use it. Example: Suppose you are obsessed with always washing your hands. Every time you wash your hands with constant system, the pump will go on. With regular decent size tank, the pump may go on only once every 10 washes or so. If you turn your water on and off often (washing hands, washing dishes one at a time, etc, etc, tank is better. For something like watering your lawn, constant system is better. Taking a shower? Do you want to hear the motor on the whole time you are taking the shower? Most of these constant system videos have an agenda. They want to sell you the controller and claim it's better. It's better sometimes, and constant pressure is nice, but there are down sides. The controller is a sophisticated electronic piece of equipment, and can break. A mechanical pressure switch is extremely simple, extremely cheap and lasts a long time. The design of these mechanical pressure switches are like natures design of the cockroach. Unchanged for millions of years. Works perfectly, no need to change. The design of the mechanical pressure switches have probably remained basically unchanged for like 70 years.
Thanks boomer
Washing your hands does not turn a constant pressure system pump on as there is always enough water in the small pressure tank for these minimal use applications, i.e. using under a few gallons of water. If you can hear the pump while taking a shower you have an extremely loud pump, a pump that is extremely close to the shower with no wall/ceiling insulation or one that has been installed incorrectly.
@@davidmichael9696 Not true. You can only turn on the faucet for a few seconds before the pump comes on. And if it does not come on with this washing of hands it will come on with the next washing of hands. The pump HAS to come on very soon or the system will not be constant pressure! Come on! It's physics!
If you send power to your pump you will always have a full start on that motor. There is no variable speed to these sump pump motors. So could you explain how you would have a soft start?
Rick,
the way these systems work is that the controller (called a variable frequency drive) varies the frequency of the electricity going to the pump. The speed of the motor is affected by varying the frequency of the electricity.
That's why they wear out quicker.
Hmmm, interesting, same concept as an inverter air conditioner. They also have cheaper controllers that don't provide a soft start. The cheap controllers vary the flow by varying the opening size of a physical valve. Obviously the inverter type sounds much better if you don't mind spending the money. I imagine you need a special motor compatible with the varying frequency. Am I correct? Or can you use any old pump motor?
Which one will give you a better energy consumption/gallon?
Constant pressure will give you the best energy efficiency in most situations. But, on a residential size system, the difference is minimal at best.
so.. with constant pressure you don't need a big tank to maintain pressure.. because you are depending on the well and the pump.. entirely.. the pressure tank is nothing more than a 5psi buffer.. you could put a 300 gallon pressure tank on and the constant pressure system would not utilize it. Or anything. This means is your well had better be able to handle all the requests for water, because there is no built up storage. Whatever resides in the well bore is all you got. Slam your lawn with awesome pressure from the sprinklers.. until the well is dry. Not sure I like being left with no storage
I agree. Storage is always better. This type of pumping system is available as a submersible pump in your well or a booster system on your storage tank. So you can have the storage system you want and the constant pressure. But, constant pressure is not best for all applications. I use them only about 60% of the time. It depends on many factors.
A properly designed system will never run the well dry unless your well has dropped far off from its normal production. A good way to design a system is to size the pump to the well, so the pump running full out will not draw the well down below the pump intake. If you are depending on a large tank to keep your well from running out of water, you have a problem. We went thru that very situation, where the well slowed down and we were running out of water and would have to run and shut off the pump to keep it from burning up. So we put in a 500 gallon storage tank. It wasn’t long before we realized the tank was never getting full, and eventually we were running out of water again. That’s when the decision was made to drill a new well.
+ccoraxfan yes thats the way things are heading the monodrive system used to be able to handle 3k sf house 3 baths, family of 6 + irrigation. now the monodrive goes into a 5 min recovery timeout watering. well is 12yo. i figure add the storage tank for now
Yes, it is true that some wells will slow down and eventually completely stop flowing. This can occur for many reasons including, packer failure, collapsed casing, drought, screen clogging and many more. But, it is also true that some wells produce less water than desirable simply due to a lack of porosity. Depending what type of water production zone you have, the formation can restrict the flow. So, a well that is weaker than the pump is not always an indication that you have problems.
+Jim Blair yes we are in northern mass / southern New Hampshire. drought is classified as extreme currently. but the problem was first experience in the spring. so we shorten the watering cycles and increased time between cycles but some days it's very diminished. I do think part of it is the Franklin monodrive itself. all this talk about tiny little tanks the reason being there is a reliance entirely on the well. Because of constant pressure you could put a 300 gallon pressure tank on make no difference. Now that it's wired in my options are rip it all out or add the storage tank after the monodrive. which raises a whole bunch of other issues like float valves. can't use a float switch so I'm a little worried about relying on that vs electronics switch
Are there any Irrigation Pumps that can produce up to 480 psi?
Yes. To get that high of pressure, you will need a multi-stage pump. The most common are submersibles but there are booster pumps that can do that high as well.
@@jimblair1 Do you know of any booster pumps that can boost that much pressure?
Yes, the water cannon style of booster pump can easily do that. They are used mainly for car wash applications. I use the Goulds brand and the model they use is the GBC and GBS. You likely won't find them on the internet as they are usually sold only through professional dealers.@@bluestingerborg
@@jimblair1 Can those be used for residential use?
Yes they can. @@bluestingerborg
Smaller tank, pump turns on with 5 psi drop, compared to a bigger tank pump turns on with a 20 psi drop. How is that less starts?
The way less starts are achieved has to do with usage. For instance, if you have a 20 gpm pump and a 10 gpm irrigation zone running, a standard pump will cycle on and off every few minutes. But, a constant pressure system will slow down and continue running at slow speeds to maintain a constant flow and only one start for that zone. If your demand is small amounts just for a house, then you won't see this benefit. But, the other benefit is that none of the starts are hard starts, so they really don't cause the damage that hard starts do.
@@jimblair1 Oh, so the pump speed is regulated? Sorry, I did not see that mentioned the first time around. That's the key to whole system.
Would a smaller tank with constant pressure work good for a dishwasher or washing machine?
Yes, it will. But, something that small can usually be handled by a standard pressure system as well.
With constant pressure, every time the washing machine or dishwasher stops using water the pump will go off, and then when it starts using water again, the pump will go on. So it depends on the design of the appliances you are using. For example, some washing machines have a cycle where they spin the clothes and then inject water into the clothes at ten second intervals to make sure all of the soap is out of the clothes. Well with this design the pump will go on and off again every ten seconds if constant pressure.
Just buy a Cycle Stop Valve only $63 for CSV125 and install yourself or have handyman do it and enjoy the constant pressure and fewer starts longer pump life and cheaper power use in an hour or so. The cheapest controller he is talking about is over $300 plus service call etc.
Then whenever your tank goes out change it out with a $100 or so 4 gallon tank. Saves lots of space and money. Or better yet just change it all out now with the sidekick CSV system or the smaller tank all at once all for less than service call to replace a controller.
Hi Kay, my well-pump went down last month. Got 80 g tank already installed. Can I still use this Cycle Stop Valve on this big tank?
@@jeromebrown8903 Yes you can. I used it with an 80 gallon in ground tank until it needed replacing and then I got a 4 gallon tank and redid my system so tank is above ground with stainless steel T setup and stainless high quality gauges etc , but its so small its easy to insulate. I made a cover for mine from a piece of plastic double walled 18 inch culvert I had lying around . I got a cheap tank a waterworks on amazon for about $60 but I can replace it easy in about 20 minutes or less. If you live in cold climate you could dig a hole and put the whole system underground but not in soil contact with a ribbon thermostatic pipe heater (powered from well wiring). If I lived up north I would buy one of the cheap small freezers and spray undercoating or line ex type spray on outside line hole with treated plywood and put the whole system in the freezer (used one is cheap)and put it down in the wooden box. Put a couple of unions on it for quick disconnect etc. lift the whole thing out if it needs maintenance. The freezer is just a well insulated cabinet. A large cooler would also work or just a heavy duty plastic storage container the only real difference in going to a small tank is they generally have a 3/4 inch fitting instead of a 1 inch or 1 1/4 inch , but this can be stepped down easily and a T also makes this easy.
Just go to Cyclestopvalves.com and look the whole systems with T etc are more expensive but not much if any more than high quality separate components if you want to replace tank etc. Give them a call . They are more than helpful and I have called several times and have only talked to 2 different people Gary the owner and one other person. For more money you can also get an adjustable pressure metal housing valve. You can buy on amazon too if you know what you need. You do have to match the valves to the size of the pump if its IIRC 2hp or more need a different valve.
I live in Amsterdam NY how can get that In stall in my area????
i suggest you contact your local water well company. Good guys i am sure. That is a bit far for me to travel from Texas.
@@jimblair1 So I guess you're saying the Philippines is a little too far, also? :)
@@pineapplehouseonline2750 Which Philippine are you talking about? Yes, I think all of them are out of my service area.
@@jimblair1 Hahaha! We're about 20 miles from Manila, but it is much cooler here than there, so maybe you'd like to make a visit??? :)
Be careful with the constant pressure system. We bought a house with one. Also the well is close to the house. So with the pump always on, the noise from the pump resonates through the ground and into the house. So if you are sensitive to low frequency sounds, as my wife is, the noise can drive you crazy. Anyone else have this problem? We are close to pulling it out and replacing with a standard system. But we also have a geothermal heating system, and need to figure out if the constant pressure system is somehow necessary for the geothermal.
Is a constant pressure system the same as a cycle stop valve?
Ralph, no a cycle stop valve and a constant pressure controller are not the same thing. Although they can achieve similar results in most situations. A cycle stop valve is a mechanical way of maintaining a consistent pressure while a constant pressure controller is an electronic way of maintaining a constant pressure. Cycle stop valves work great as long as the pipe between the pump and the valve can handle the discharge pressure that the pump can generate at dead head. If the pipe is too weak to handle that extra pressure, then the pipe will burst. If the pipe is holding up a submersible pump, then you get to go fishing to try to get your pump back.
@@jimblair1 Thx...
@@jimblair1 I'm curious on how many times you have seen the backpressure cause issues in total? Installing pumps on piping that cannot handle the pump's max pressure (dead head) rating isn't a good practice anyways.
@@samualosten5212 Backpressure never causes issues as long as you have the system set up properly. Always have a check valve in line to stop back flow. Always have a pressure tank and relief valve set to the right pressures. And make sure your plumbing is rated to handle the pressure you are making. Then you don't have to worry about those things.
This is how an RV pump works.
couldn't I just use a (CSV) cycle stop valve ?
Yes, the CSV will work in some applications. But, despite what the manufacturer says, they are not the perfect answer to every problem. For instance, if you put that valve on a well head that has pvc production pipe, you are likely to damage the production pipe due to the excessive pressure created when the valve closes. Yes, in some cases the CSV will work. It will never be as efficient as a true vfd, but it also costs a lot less to install a CSV over a VFD. Also keep in mind that water quality issues can damage a CSV over time so the longevity of the product can be an issue depending upon the quality of the water.
Yes you can use Cycle Stop valve for constant pressure and it works great I bought a 50 PSI one for $63 3 years ago and it has worked flawlessly Don't let these installers tell you otherwise.
Use a 4 gallon tank also with no issues .I did buy a stainless steel T separately on amazon $134 tank $79 CSV valve $63 I installed the Cycle stop valve in a union to make it so I could replace it easily or put back in PVC in its place but I have never had to. Just do it you will be happy with it. I used the CSV125.
I had a bad well motor before that 3 wire with control box and PVC 1 1/4 inch downpipes. so at the same time I replaced pump with soft start Grundfos 3/4hp 10 GPM well motor and replaced the pvc pipe with HDPE pipe and added a rope to pump. Now I can easily pull the pump up by hand but easier with helper for first 50 feet I rigged a block on a tripod to run rope through. Just tie it on back of vehicle or riding lawnmower and have one person guide pipe out while one drives away slowly or do what I do use a remote winch on vehicle and do it all yourself.I could now chang my whole system out in about 3 hours if needed. PVC gets brittle with age and crack when it bends mine was 20 foot glued sections not threaded.
if you have constant pressure system, is it avisable to install pressure reducing valve in pipeline?
No with the constant pressure system or the Cycle Stop Valve which is much cheaper you decide what pressure you want and set it but you can have 2 separate setups that Y off if you want lower pressure for something such as a lower pressure run for open loop geothermal to save well pump energy
constant pressure = constant electricity usage
Switch to decaf.
Steve, that is the funniest reply I have ever received. I love it. For me, its Dr. Pepper and I don't think they make a decaf version. Sorry.
@@jimblair1 - Glad you liked it..just messing with you, I’m kind of a Mountain Dew guy myself. Definitely no decaf version of that either!
Wrong, soft-start relay should ALWAYS be installed in std. pressure system.
It makes no sense to pay thousands for a short-lived controller that extends the life of a pump that costs only hundreds.
cvs is a cheaper & better option
Cycle Stop Valves have their place in a water system, but they have some downsides. We use them occasionally, but you have to be careful. The biggest problem is the backpressure that is created can damage the production pipe in a deep well that has pvc or poly piping. But, yes, they do work and they are much cheaper.
Trashy power, lol. You mean equipment that doesn't conform and work within ANSI standards.
Stick to the standard.