Episode 52: Jonathan Pageau: Orthodoxy, Jordan Peterson, and the Symbolic World
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- Welcome to More Christ, where we seek to bring some of the world's most interesting and insightful guests to discuss life's central and abiding questions.
In this fifty second episode in a series of discussions, I'm joined by Jonathan Pageau. Jonathan carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images. He also designs products, teaches, and makes fantastic videos for The Symbolic World that explore how ancient patterns can re-enchant our contemporary life.
If you'd like to learn more about Jonathan and his work, please see the links below:
/ pageaujonathan
pageaucarvings.com/index.html
orthodoxartsjournal.org/jonat...
www.amazon.co.uk/Language-Cre...
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I like your little peeks at references, but I'm still not going to edit.
Between the sheer length of your videos and the amount of N.T Wright and Tim Keller books you seem to have read, I appreciate where you're coming from. Haha
these interviews are like nerd heaven. people talking and bookcovers popping for references, i'm squinting and furiously scribbling them down, probably will never manage to read it, but ... :D
That definitely happened to me! I just kind of woke up one day and realized I was a Christian now.
Great questions sir. Nicely done!
Thank you, James!
Post modernism as apophaticism really hit me. I can't believe I never drew a connection to that
Happy to hear that God's Dog is coming somewhat soon. And really interested in Jonathan Pageau's symbolism book.
Hi, great interview- I really liked the insertions of the book covers.
Q: In X book, there is an idea expounded upon by Y and Z book, all of which take weeks to read and understand. How does this relate to concepts in A, B, and C books, which take months to understand?
A: Here's a detailed answer and illustration because I've somehow read all of those books and remember them completely. Here's a thought that competes with the depth and complexity of all of those books put together, delivered in a near instant.
Q: Thank you, Jonathan.
Good interview! Finally got some answers out of Pageau regarding his view on the Perennialists and Guénon specifically. Been looking for that for a while.
Vladimir Nikolayevich Lossky (Russian: Влади́мир Никола́евич Ло́сский; 1903-1958) was an Eastern Orthodox theologian in exile from Russia.
Absolutely fantastic
Thank you Marcus. I get so much out of your channel. Pageau was a great guest! And a fellow Canadian . . .
Thank you, Jim! I'm glad you find it worthwhile and enjoyed Pageau. God bless y'all in Canada!
great job. lookong forward to this
@ Jonathan. I have read a bit about jewish thinkers and philosophers starting with torah, that like a pattern, it existed before the world was created. I love that idea about our living within the pattern.
My reading list is officially full for the summer. Thanks for that, Mark!
If I must suffer, you all must suffer. Haha
@@MoreChrist Hi there. Do you know the French authors that Jonathan mentioned at around the 7 minute mark after the Cherrubinic Wanderer? I can't quite make out their names or works.
Edit: found it! A Crisis of the Modern World, Rene Guenon.
@@cliffordduhh45 glad to hear it!
If Jonathan wrote a book on symbolism and I would cancel all my plans and read it from cover to cover.
good stuff
Great interview!
Thank you, Bob! Still hoping to do a book review special for you!
@@MoreChrist Hey, do not feel you have to hurry or under any pressure at all! I am so thankful for all the work you put into this channel, and it has been deepening my faith journey consistently. I know high expectations from audience can lead to more videos and better videos, but I also want you to know your work have already been a blessing to me, take your time, balance your life and find your rythm. Haha, I should follow my own suggestion too!
@@BobWangwenyi23 thank you, brother! I appreciate that. I'm delighted my small contribution is helping you in your walk with Christ. Plus, that is most sensible advice indeed.
Very interesting and arresting comment: ‘World War 11 was a reprieve because it was a shock. When we came out of it, it lasted a generation.’ How do you do this Jonathon?
Yah!
Paul Vanderklay CAN NOT be let into this room, we will need to enter him into Books Anonymous. Well done.
Hahaha thanks Petri! He'll have to take some time out of his 4 hour conversations. :P
Peekaboo! :)
Great book by Gerard Casey, Freedom’s Progress? Long but good.
I concur! :)
Beck is very interesting. After following his blog for quite a while I needed to take a break, particularly the latter part of the Trump presidency until now. He talked extensively about The Slavery of Death, and Old Scratch, though I’ve not read them. His personal faith journey is also quite interesting as he nearly walked away from it. Thank you for reminding me about Buchanan. I’ve read a few of his books, none of the later ones. I really enjoyed and held deep resonance with them some years ago. Have you read any John O’ Donohue or David Whyte? Their work and poetry enter the depths of my being in mysterious ways...Stay well.
They are both excellent books, imho. His journey and willingness to admit when he's wrong, even about some central points, is something I find inspiring. I am listening to his recent one on walking now and find it good. The reader on Audible is excellent. I read Anam Cara years ago and remember finding it worthwhile. He seems to have serious philosophical credentials, as well as being a good poet and spiritual writer. He based that book, in part I believe, on Dr William Desmond's work. Which David Whyte book would you recommend?
Thank you for your well wishes and I hope you are blessed as well, Gregory!
@@MoreChrist Anam Cara is good.
Eternal Echoes and. Beauty: the invisible embrace are excellent, along with the book on/of blessings To Bless the Space Between Us on the lost art of blessing. I can testify to offer up blessings during various seasons of folks lives has universally granted access to areas of their lives not otherwise made available.It seems to be a key hidden in plain sight. I’d suggest Consolations an excellent entry into his writing style, religious, and philosophical leanings. House of Belonging is among my favorite poetry books. As he lives very near me in the Pacific Northwest I’ve had the privilege of hearing him in person a few times. He held a deep abiding friendship with John for many years until his death.
As requested, More Christ episodes will now be available on Spotify and Anchor:
open.spotify.com/show/2yZi5JhUZeuynCOn5jqiKo
anchor.fm/mark-connolly5
You can use a platform called RedCircle, they host podcasts for free and distribute it to all the big podcast providers, spotify, apple podcasts, stitcher, google podcasts etc. Im just mentioning this in case you are paying to host your podcast
@@joshuasy10 Thank you! I appreciate it but Anchor's free for me.
@@MoreChrist Oh right very good, I haven't heard of Anchor. I think your doing a good job, so from one Irishman to another, keep up the good work 💪. I also own a podcast that is still in it's early days and I'm still trying to find my niche. I have some videos similar to Jonathan's where i explain symbolism, but also some that are testimonial styled videos. I'd appreciate you giving it a listen and leaving some feedback. It's called "Accessory To Thought" with a burning rose logo. I'm planning on infiltrating this strange Jonathan/Vanderclay/James K/Derek/ etc etc community, so I'm building a hitlist for guests lol, maybe we could colab sometime down the line. You can watch my refutal of Materialism and my episode on the Burning Bush, I'm most proud of those episodes. I also have a cohost who takes on his own episodes too and he has a different style. So if your curious of his style watch the recent David episode. Regardless keep sharing More Christ 😉
Natural heiloeachy of importance or values. Marginal economist Carl me get and boom-Bowery and Austrian School economics Ludwig con Mises discuss how human action is rooted in causality and telos, and demonstrates the truth and reality the Subjective Value Theory in economics.
Great stuff. keep up the good work and good fight.
The categories the tJonathan is talking about sounds a lot like Apriori knowledge. Empiricism and science cannot exist without Apriori theory. Apriori categories Of knowledge are inherent within humans and form the basis of the in way which we can view/perceive reality. The categories are causal and purposeful (telos).
Great stuff.
Thank you, Brandon!
@33:33 🔥
Serious question. I don’t get the difference between orthodox Christianity and Catholicism. I get the basic difference in Catholicism and Protestantism.
Is “orthodox” one of those things which can’t be spoken or captured or understood fully. Like how people conceptualize God ?
A big question! Haha …Check out David Bentley Hart's article on the myth of schism. It's very helpful.
In book form, two contrary theses about the similarities and differences can be accessed: Fr Laurent Cleenewerck and Dr Eugene Webb.
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware does a great job sharing the Orthodox way and Bishop Robert Barron, the Catholic way.
Can someone tell me how morality flows from christian cosmology? How do we go from God the origin of everything and Christ "assuming things and embodying them and taking them into god by descending into them" all the way to love your neighbor and don't covet your neighbor's wife?
Why would we want to seek the infinite if the infinite is ineffable and inexpressible and unknowable? At least Christ was human so you have something to follow.
Good question. Staniloae deals with this in his work on the Trinity. "Existence is justified by love." What we call the 'moral', the cosmological, and all meet in love. As you say, the infinite is too abstract. Reality is ultimately trinitarian.
I was a Christian before Christians were cool...😎
Me too....but doesn't that make us cooler though?
39:30
33:30
26:47
"regular people on the street ... they can't perceive they're given a moral pattern"
regular people don't think about this stuff, they just take it for granted
what's so weird about Sam Harris and his ilk, is here is a smart guy who has thought about this exact topic a ton, written at least one book about it, yet still has this huge blind spot that to many is self evident
it's _weird_
Forest for the trees
Are you orthodox Or R.C. or a different church M?
That would be an ecumenical matter! Haha
@@MoreChrist In other words, THAT would be telling... ;-)
ha ha, as long as you dont have your own private church 😀
Jordan Peterson knows he will die if he recieves Christ. Dying is scary.