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LS | PODCAST WITH C9 MAX WALDO - Coaching, Coaching Prices, LoL Drama & Living In Korea
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- čas přidán 6. 08. 2024
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Chapters:
00:00 Warmup
16:40 Coaching Prices (& Neace)
01:00:39 Evaluating People in League Proplay
01:40:36 Drama in LoL Scene (Neace)
01:51:05 Drama in LoL Scene (Professor Akali)
01:55:57 Drama in LoL Scene (Mr. Beast)
02:00:45 Drama in LoL Scene (Professor Akali Contracts)
02:10:10 Drama in LoL Scene (Nightblue3)
02:19:47 Drama in LoL Scene (Odoamne & Rogue)
02:21:06 Conclusions
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Editor : tenki
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#LS #MaxWaldo #C9 #Cloud9 #Coaching
Man what a sick podcast. It's a shame that LS never got to talk considering that Max just told the full 2 hour rendition of the Mouse Story.
I can’t believe Max & LS just went on a 40 minute tangent about Fudge’s high school grades.
which minute ?
@@xXHotaroXx it started at minute 3 and just went on the entire rest of the podcast
Imagine if MrBeast hired LS to be a general manager and LS built a BeastEsports with all rookies.
Imagine if LS would be coaching a team again.
@@rs4cool My freaking dream come true man, the few games we've had with LS coaching have been the most interesting in league since a long long time, WE NEED IT BACK
Currently there's no incentive for most teams to 'go out of their way' to improve in the theory of league (because they all handshake it real fast), but just one team in their league doing things to strive for improvement would set off either improvement in the field or forfeit, and I am all for it
LS one idea for content for you would be to do “celebrity” coaching sessions. Its a big part of how chess blew up on twitch - Hikaru and daniel naroditsky coaching xqc, hafu, imaqtpie live. There’s already a bunch of popular streamers that are gold/plat (Mango, akaNemsko, not to mention some of the big TFT guys), but im sure coaching someone who’s brand new would make for good content too
good idea
he did xqc coaching but didnt get much traction iirc
He used to do that with chess and magic players wayyyyyyyyy back, would be nice if he did bring it back but probably hard to sched during comp season
The Destiny incident 2.0
@@jojowastaken what?
Those interested in the discussion at around 1:00:00 about methods for non-experts to evaluate experts and ways of converting domain-specific knowledge into general knowledge should read David Sirlin's book "Playing to Win". Sirlin himself describes it as a retelling of the Art of War through the lens of fighting games, and League players will recognize basically all of the concepts as being applicable directly in LoL. Many similar concepts in play.
Wait but LS and Max hate each other did you forget? /s
Super stoked to watch this when I get off work today! Thanks for sharing and best wishes to y'all!
Max Waldo's Mike is messed up because he has his microphone way too far away from his face. He is using a dynamic mic which is designed not to pick up sounds that are farther away from him. This is a good thing because it avoids picking up other mics and echoes that might be in the room.
This means you get a clean sound without the need for sound treating the room. The downside is you need to put your face physically closer to that microphone.
Alternatively you can get a condenser mic which would pick up your voice much better from that distance, but the trade-off will be that the sound conditioning of the room will be much more apparent in your audio recording.
In addition I do not know how you have that microphone amped it has an notoriously low pickup to be in with. You could consider a cloud lifter to lift the base recording volume
Awesome podcast and always a pleasure seeing Mr. Max!! 🐀
mad love ls hope im early enough for u to see it! Inspiration!
LS otherwise known as Lost Socrates is a well know modern day student of the ancient philosopher who regularly engages in dialogue about hypothetical teams, players and systems in League of Legends eSports. Unfortunately he also goes off on tangential topics and engages in a multitude of euphemisms especially related to gay sex to confuse his audience. It often takes a professional coach or player such as Max "Kaisen" Waldo to make LS return to course.
I'm gonna get a coaching for LS so he can get confrontational with me and randomly say "yes hurt me daddy"
Good to see Mex and LS, I remember the IRL stream where you two sold Magic cards to the horny korean dude, good times
omg that stream was wild didn't he like octopus stuff
@@kakuja77_ yup
That was hilarious
The podcast you've ALL been waiting for: AT LAST...hear exactly what happened behind the scenes of C9 that led to LS's sudden and shocking departure from the team. I really can't believe it!
Do they even bring this up though
@@emplore yeah if so put the timeline here
I fucking love Max and how his thought process is ❤
i enjoyed this talk, ty
There is a well know method in education by a Nobel prize winning physicist called Feynman technique (what Max is eluding to around 1:07:30) which consists of 4 steps:
1. Pretend to teach a concept to a child
2. Identify gaps in your explanation
3. Organise and simplify
4. Teach it to someone else
It is a technique to both learn, understand but also teach a topic by simplifying it.
Max is clarifying LS's thoughts that certain people are only able to understand and explain topics in their specialised field (league of legends). Those with skillset/aptitude to teach are able to explain topics to regular people who have never interacted with the concept before (explaining wave management to someone who has never played MOBA).
Good example to bring up is what Ferruccio Lamborghini said : " We don't do commercials ,because our target audience isn't sitting around. watching TV." .
So I can relate to the answer from Max about "the natural splitting" . If ppl have that high of an income and want to purchase this type of service that's on them.
GOD I FUCKING LOVE MAX WALDO AND LS
Contract part was really interestering. A friend of my father got offered a World Rally Championship spot in a well known team back in the 00s. The owned of the team offered him a drive and in return my fathers friend would have to pay 50% of all his future earnings in anything related to motorsports...
Talking about results rather than looking at steps taken to get to the result is putting cart before the horse. What Max and LS are trying to identify is thought process behind the steps taken. By identifying and refining the correct thought processes you can replicate the same result every time.
It's very similar for statistics such as CS or GXD10. CS is looking at the outcome rather than looking at wave manipulation. GXD10 looks at standardising how solo laners last hit minions compared to junglers who clear creeps; it also puts a numerical value on exp (which relate to champion stats and skill levels) and adds it to gold earned (which relate to item and build maturity). However GXD also does not reveal the thought process behind it. It does not reveal whether a jungler prioritised clearing creeps, ganking lanes or obtaining objectives and why they would choose to do that at certain moments in the game. One attempted solution is to combine stats such as KDA, turret plates, GXD10 and CS. However this still only provides an overview of what happened at perhaps 3 points in the game.
The solution Max and LS are suggesting is to find individuals who are able to problem solve, break down concepts to basic principles and make new variables of which to measure players thought processes rather than outcomes.
To the coaching prices part: sure, raising it makes it so people are less likely to get it irresponsibly, but also its more likely that a few game player silver or gold andy buys it, whom doesnt get that much value from the coaching, instead of the guy who puts his heart and soul into the game and is master/gm/chall. because obviously the people in master+ are likely putting in way more time in than the diamond and below range, which means they are less like to be able to gather money for coaching through summer jobs and shit cause they are on the grind. So yeah I'm not saying you guys shouldn't increase your prices, i'm just saying diamond and below is what u should realisticially look to increase, cause thoose are the people more likely to not get value out of the coaching and they probably know its more like they get to talk to you, while master+ should be cheaper as they actually use the coaching part. maybe it could be like dia is a bit cheaper than below, at d2 maybe another bit, at master a bigger one and at gm a bigone, or something like this.
i dont even understand why prople buy coaching in the first place, there is so much videos on people who are playing the game that you can watch raw gameplay and free coaching, also just play the game and think about what went right and wrong in a lane/game and work towards that in the next game. This is what I did and I slowly climbed from bronze to Master Promos over the years all soloq
because some people are busy and don't have time for all that they just want condensed info.
and some people are just lazy as well lol
Would you buy coaching from ls if you had the chance?
I think what might affect stream views vs youtube/tiktok/etc views is that if you watch someone actively on twitch for example, you might not feel the need to watch every highlight video on CZcams since you already saw it live, or the other way around, if you watch all the CZcams highlights and clips, you might not feel the need to watch their stream since you know you'll see all the significant moments on CZcams later anyways. I know not everyone thinks like this but I definitely do for some channels I'm subbed to so maybe others like me result in people like Rainbolt not getting a lot of twitch viewers despite having millions of views on CZcams and tiktok
Another factor might be that some channels get viewed as just passing content, rather than actual personalities that you want to actively support. For example, I might watch a highlight on tiktok and think it's really funny or cool every single new upload, but then I'm just swiping to the next post on my feed instead of checking out their stream or socials
1:17:29 everytime this topic comes up I’m reminded of moneyball where many of the people who went on to create the philosophy of sabernetics had to create their own stats that reflected what they thought was key to winning games. Maybe LS should devote resources into identifying and recording stats on a similar level for what the best pros in LOL are doing
1:15:48 is it possible to do something similar to FIFA’s team rankings? Where teams are ranked based on their wins and who they win against? And you can use similar “scaling” for a player’s stats during laning phase.
Wish this was on spotify :(
wow that twitter dm thats insanity holy shit
LS vs Max in Draft Boxing where you make a comp through tournament drafting and then debate on whos comp wins then punch each other in the face for 90 seconds
its easy, western esports orgs have to build a team of teenagers not to feed individual players to the main roster, and actually build a culture between these players with a clear playstyle/mindset since day one and aim for 3 to 5 years in the future.
this is what Marcelo Bielsa did in fútbol, best example was his 90-92 Newells Old Boy team, full of noname players that he trained since they were 13-15 years old, when they finally got to play profesionally Bielsa and his team of youngsters won 2 Argentinian Leagues and got to the finals of the Libertadores cup. He did something similar with Chile's National team, and Leeds united in England.
I agree that a sign of a good coach is a strong problem solving process, but their words feel empty without examples. I would love to see hyper-specific examples of the problem solving / fundamentals breakdown process they're talking about from their own experience.
The TL prediction is insane
Hey LS long time fan just commenting I hit grandmaster for the first time on mobile a couple days ago ik it's not as impressive as pc but due to not having one I can't see where my Elo is but I've always appreciated the fundamentals you taught me I learned how to play orianna and adc from you I used rubber band concepts in the jungle a lot I religiously kept you in mind to not rush waves because I already have a future wife I don't need to go to a hot date I kept you in mind during pick ban and kept true to myself and my champion pools which included janna top lane because I suck at baron lane so I just skip lane phase and would just scale then super support my team which took inspiration from your raka top I constantly make fun of jayce players because I don't even think there's 10 competent jace players on the ladder same applies to samira nobody can combo with her. I learned to be okay with giving up things that were relevant to me like minon waves and towers if I was 3 v 1 for instance kinda learned that from that lane swap meta from hella long ago where top lanes would die to collect part of a wave and adcs would get funneled. I basically understand that no matter what unless I'm a fed fighter I probably can't defend myself 1 v 3 under tower so just walk away and wait because there's only 2 enemies left on the map so my team has to accomplish anything. I didn't keep too in touch toward the end of worlds just know that you're loved and had a giant impact on my perspectives in game and I respect you a ton thank you for the content and knowledge you're funny, kind, and smart so I'm glad I get to binge watch you again no one can ever replace you (though IWD will try). I always keep you in mind with my builds and how I min max the mobile game with different items and runes too. I'm constantly play testing to min max and not follow the blind.
Tl;dr- hit grandmaster solo on mobile using fundamentals LS taught me and his analysis to manipulate champion select to match my playstyle and comfort. Thanks LiandryS torment
You pick experts by the obsesión they have for refinement and the discipline they have to do it for a long period of time
hey man, why is that account you're playing on 38% wr plat 1? asking for a friend!
1:20:12 “Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.” - Samuel Beckett
Wax Maldo Lets go
Supply and demand gets thrown around somewhat incorrectly.
In Neaces case, I seriously doubt he was so overwhelmed with students at 150 per hour he had to raise to 200, and so on. It's more likely that he was getting 3 students per day at $150 and realized he could get 2 students per day at $250 and he thought "$500 per day for less work? Sold!"
Supposedly he was doing 8/day
I mean I don't want to defend the guy but he streams his coaching for hours from what I've seen cause every time I enter facebook I see his streams comes up
So if there's that many people who buy for the public coaching you don't think there's some good amount who also pay for private coaching?
You can say his work is unethical but you can't say that he doesn't get people lol
@@sleakseal2133 and it was debunked that the coaches he does live are on accounts that stop playing a few days after the said coaching happens lol. Its playing staged dude.
@@crazysnill *supposedly*
Good podcast but for the life of me please please please fix audio settings so we don't hear white noise the entire stream.
How good is Beryl? Can he get away from DRX before next worlds?
"I don't see winning in your region winning". Classic LS.
What the hell happened to Max at 1:27:08 ???
hitthelow is coaching full time now actually
max waldo based
Guys, why does LS got fired from C9? did he ever told the story?
Hey LS, love the content and the pod with Max. Please consider going on Azzapp's new pod "Beyond the Void"
1:12:14 what a lucid moment for Joe.
Max should sell the mouse story movie rights to Hollywood
I feel like what you're trying to say, in as much a polite way as possible is that you feel that Neace's coaching is over priced because it's not very high quality
If you want to find just a fraction of what Mr. Beast knows and find just how fn smart he has become about getting views, streaming and anything media related, go watch him on the Joe Rogan podcast...actually insane.
Let's just say if he says he can help you get more views,he absolutely can and then some. Most importantly he probably won't even charge you anything, He literally gives money away and doesn't need it.
Step bro I can't see anything
Your complaints about titles dont just apply to esports. I work in tech and there are a lot of the same problems with titling in tech as there are in esports.
i do side with you LS, but i think nightblue3 get just as many hate dms from this drama or even more. i do believe that even tho i side with you, neither of you should be receiving death tweets.
Yeah like how many people do you think got death threats because of ls fans ? Like come on. I dont even like Nightblue and I watch most Ls videos but hes so delusional if he thinks that hes the only one on the receiving side.
Also I completely agree with LS where I dont think anyone should receive messages like this.
LS messed up. Jumped the gun on unverified information because he hates NB3.
I think maybe ls LS is projecting some of his frugalness onto others when it comes to pricing of coaching services. He would never spend this amount of money on something like this. Ls grew up poor and has said multiple times that even today he has trouble spending his money.
Just 2 minor points on the Nea e coaching.
$350 is the price of off stream sessions, not streamed. Streamed sessions are $250
Those prices are not per hour, it is 1.5 to 2 hours per session. It's an in-game and a VOD review
Waldo type shit
Why are they still talking about Neace. LOL.
the scientific literature has also started getting into a "how we measure skill". We are skill far from the real deal
About the coaching and how LS felt bad about what he was charging because he felt like those buying it was doing so irresponsibility... While he had a gambling sponsor during worlds is a bit of a bruh moment
Nope it's not the same and I discuss why. I believe in free will and I'm not a party to the persons choice they're making, I also have no info on whether they're doing it irresponsibly. Why is English so hard for people
@@LSXYZ9
I understand why you have no problem with gambling sponsors and i agree with why you don't.
What i don't understand is how you have a problem with people spending their money recklessly when you're directly involved but not when you're indirectly involved.
Because we both know that some people who see your sponsorship are going to go throw away their money and while i don't think that's on you (as they freely chose to do so) i would say the same logic applies to people buying your coaching that can't really afford to spend money on that.
My issue wasn't that you don't have an issue with gambling, my "issue" was why the hell you only had a problem with one but not the other.
I know it feels different, but imo it really isn't.
Imagine being morally questioningvurself just u work with free market rules
max the famous tiktok roommate?
Theory: Malrang brought Korean culture around practice, mindset and teamwork to RGE pushing them to their first LEC win and only western team making it out of world's. Rogue only lost to DRX (world champions), TES and JDG (LPL 1st and 2nd seed). And the games were close likely due to weaknesses in mechanics and teamfights compared to Asian teams.
Maybe a worthwhile point is Neace is some sort of Eceleb? Yuck. And people are more willing to pay him just to talk to him. The value of the coaching is much less than the experience of being on his youtube channel, spending an hour talking to him, etc.
me when im playing a fed master yi u just right click and have a penta: ITS COACHING TIME
It's almost ethically wrong for LS to give coaching to anyone lower than diamond, it's simply a waste of time. If you're bronze, a platinum player can teach you 98% of what LS is going to teach you.
Unconfrontational coaching is useless
first
First
Two L
Cap Alert
Im curious what gives LS the credentials to say the things he says based on their topic? If results cant be used, whats his reasoning? You can say his thought process is good etc but if he doesn’t have results then you have to question it.
Stay on topic bro. Couldnt watch this
Someone give me a tldr, i aint watching 2hr
No
Bruv there's time stamps
Tldr they talk
Max tells the mouse story and I won't say where, but he also told the rabbit story
Yall are cringe
lol whining abt getting hate messages after instigating your fans to give hate messages to nb3.edit- could have just apologised after the confusion got cleared up..but you didnt)
Nothing to apologize for, and clearly you didn't listen to that part.
@@LSXYZ9 i listened to that part
@@Diya-dg6ur excellent, then your english fucking sucks and you should look up cognitive dissonance if you're having trouble understanding why I valued and sought out the jury of fellow industry people over public people such as yourself and only THEN took my hard stance on it.
@@LSXYZ9 u sought out the jury of fellow industry people but then later info that both you and the people u contacted didn't know was posted on Reddit wasn't it?
@@Diya-dg6ur no we quite literally went over nb3s video itself and things omitted from it. He omitted a lot and lied about timeline, that already also says enough lol
I will say. It is funny watching LS, a high diamond player who calls himself masters and makes his brand off of calling people bad, insulting Neace, a high diamond player who calls himself masters and made his brand off calling people bad.
They are very similar game knowledge level. Very similar talent level. They are both just entertainers. LS was a pro coach of a good team for like 2 weeks. They are both just shock jock content makers.
They aren't similar game knowledge that's the point lol
@@axivy4684 They have both achieved about the same ladder rank. They are both high diamond players.
Now, don't get me wrong, high diamond is far better than your average player.
But no, they are about on par skill level wise. They are both primarily content creators.
---------
If LS had the skill of a challenger player, why is he not challenger?
@@ragmondead Yeah, Okay, but...
Skill as a player doesnt correlate with skill as a coach, neither does rank correlate with how much you know about the game, because game is also mechanics, so you need to mash both.
While I do agree that a minimum rank is required to actually be considered a coach to most players in high elo (because understandment of mechanics at least at a basic level, and being capable of seeing beyond the simple macro systems), LS is just one of the most knowleadgeable people in the scene.
See, he explains himself almost perfectly while talking about very deep and complex concepts, that lay on our subconscious as players, but he is capable of putting them in a spotlight, I.E T1's Draft Dystopias. That video is a really good showcase of what I mean when he talks about match ups and practicing and %.
While also being resourceful, as he often invents, pioneers or whatever you wanna call it, certain picks, like Soraka solo lane, Ivern Mid, etc
I believe LS peaked Grandmaster or very close to it on the Korean ladder year or 2 ago. If he lived in NA for the past 10 years I’m pretty sure he could vibe in NA GM or chall pretty easily.
He also doesn’t play the game much anymore cuz of mental health.
@@HeyitsTalon he did not. He peaked masters promos. He lost his promos.
And this is no hate to him, he just is the same skill level as neace. so its funny to see him insult neace.
I am blown away at how out of whack LS' morality is.
I mean, when the guy is trying to be what he considers a nice guy, he has no idea how toxic it is. He didn't feel comfortable charging people for coaching once he didn't need the money? Does that mean it was moral way to make money when he had less money but immoral when it pays him proportionally less?? But if you jeed the money then take their less dime for a worthless service. If you have a mill in the bank, you can't take their last buck? Thats disgusting
He provided a service that was worth the money paid, and it meant that he could improve his standard of living, coaching isnt just watching you play and telling you standard advice, its really more indepth and honestly takes more mental work than it seems. It requires the coach to pay attention to everything the client is doing and if you miss something, you are literally in a way "scamming" them for the Coach not to be providing with the service they advertised. Once he had enough money to be comfortable with, then he could (and did) stop doing the job that was more tiring than just casually turning on stream and co streaming LCK, etc. It doesn't mean the work he did wasn't worth it, you're looking at it very narrowmindedly and maybe considering all factors and all perspectives may make you understand the bigger picture rather than cutting to a conclusion.
he was propped up and put on a pedastool and givin extra attention because he content was superior to those around him.
in essence he gave back once he reached a surplus
its humility.
jordan peterson would destroy you in a battle of morality
Neace burner?
Doesn't surprise me after the Nightblue drama
9:50 yeah, thats my solo queue teammates, maxxy
That protein shit per meal is a meme
Oh LS I can tell you. I've watched you for many years but my brother said that he (used) to prefer Neace, because he's not looking to completely understand the game. He's just trying to win in Solo Q.
And I think that's exactly the TYPE of person that would go to Neace, just as he himself is somewhat of a swindler he entices people who are easily swindled and themselves want to swindle the League of Legends system.
I do truly think that Neace gives people false hope, and I find it odd how adamantly he shuts people up who aren't actually avidly against everything he does. He might actually be mentally ill in some facet.
@ls @maxwaldo it's closer to 10g per hour