As Christians, be you Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist or Pentecostal, we are constantly battling the God of this world, (Satan), with constant temptations to do wrong or evil…to be saved and go to Heaven, I believe, daily prayer, reading the Bible, doing good deeds, forgiving your enemies and your loved ones…basically, love your neighbour, follow the 10 commandments to your best ability…we were born with sin going back to the story of Adam and Eve, so taking that into consideration, our faith in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit will help us to garner favour with our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ as long as we walk with humility and repent for our sins, in the end, Jesus wants all souls to be saved and go to Heaven no matter what Christian denomination you identify with… Great discussion, thank you, Peace and Love✌️❤️
Especially after hearing Jimmy Akin talk about this issue and going through the entire Catechism (in a year), I feel less certain about what the Church actually teaches about works and salvation. It appears that works are necessary for us to *remain saved* , but I wish someone would just speak directly and plainly about it. Also isn't a mortal sin of omission equivalent to failing to do a good work? Why does no one make the connection between refusing or neglecting to do good works and sins of omission??
What value does it have to understand each other? Is spiritual truth derived from a democracy of ideas? Protestants must accept the authority of the Church; any agreement between the two groups is merely superficial
Once we are in a state of grace, once we are again in communion with God as our loving Father, the nature of our good works change, as He works through us as His new children. Our good works are still nothing compared to God, like the scribbled crayon marks of a 4-year-old's first picture. Does a good parent tear up that picture and laugh at the child? Or put that "art work" up on the family refrigerator? Our God chooses to put our pathetic good deeds on the divine refrigerator, simply because God is Love, and we, though terrible sinners, are not "in the hands of an angry God" because of the saving Work of Christ. Our works have "merit" only because of God, as all good comes from God, and returns in praise to Him.
Sometimes our understanding of an idea is very much influenced by the subtle aspects of the language we use. I am Slovak. My language has a special word that is used in theology (at least the Catholic one, I am not sure of the others) to signify "justification". I am not aware of other uses the term, it was probably coined specifically for this purpose because in the normal language it sounds a bit artificial. The word as it is can be only translated to mean "to make someone righteous", as far as my understanding of my native language allows me (I am not a linguist/Slovak language scholar). It sounds similarly as the more normal word one would translate justification as, but that one has more the meaning of declaring someone righteous, or even more towards the meaning of excusing them (to excuse is the regular meaning of the normal Slovak word).
Ultimately God wants the Catholic Church and non- Catholic Protestants to be in full communion. To me rites are stylistic, like David dancing naked into Jerusalem. If you're a protestant and any of the Catholic rites offend you, look to gain humility. If you're a Catholic and any of the Protestant rites offend you, look to gain humility. Now, no two Christians fully believe exactly the same thing. But if the essence is there, there's concord. Communion. As a Catholic I can say we are saved by Grace alone. That the Holy Spirit provides us through that Grace, Faith, Hope, and works of Love. This is the biblical position that most Protestants I've talked to agree with. When they get into philosophical distinctions that are extra-biblical like Justification V. Sanctification, or the 5 Solas, well, I just don't get it.
Just trying to understand the catholic position with Protestants, I know in Vatican 2 it expresses that Protestants are separated brethren and I’ve read a lot on the topic where many says Protestants in some way can be saved even tho they are outside the Catholic Church. I have tried defending this with many Protestants but, the objection I get that I have no idea how to defend is, anyone who commits a mortal sin falls out of a state of grace. So if as a Protestant I don’t attend mass, partake of the Eucharist or do confession all of which are mortal sins how could a Protestant ever have any ability of being saved from a catholic lens?
That’s a great and very thoughtful question. I would answer to say, a mortal sin requires “full knowledge” of the sin. So, unless a Protestant knew that they had an obligation to attend Mass they wouldn’t be committing mortal sin by not attending it.
As our Catholic bible says, with humans it is impossible. To paraphrase: All things are possible with God who will judge us by what we do in silence and when nobody's looking.
If we are saved by faith alone.......then why, if we have faith....do we need to "Pray always that you enter not into temptation?" ....which quote was explicitly taught by the mouth of Jesus Himself?
There's 5 Alone (Solas) Protestants hold to. They're obviously using the word Alone differently than you or I might use it. Like if I'm teaching a class in the middle school where I work and I tell them their grade will be based on the test Alone. And the next day I go and say their grade will be based on an in-class presentation Alone. And so on for 5 days, so that there are 5 Solas, obviously some folk are going to be confused. So the question for me is if Alone is used in such a way as there can be 5 Alones, do the 5 Solas open up this extra-biblical concept enough to include Christ's trilogy of Faith, Hope and Love in the Gospel? Or St. James's Faith and Works of Caritas?
Jesus teaches in many different parables about justification....and if these are ignored many mistakes might be made in assessing the nature of Justification. For instance, we have the parable of the wise and foolish virgins who were waiting for the Bridegroom to arrive. The foolish virgins were not allowed into the Wedding Feast. So we have an example of people NOT DOING something for aquiring salvation, that is....they did not take care to provide themselves extra flasks of lamp oil that they needed to follow the Bridegroom. Also, If you are a Christian but do not forgive your 'Brother' when he sins against you...even 7 times in one day...but repents....God will not forgive you your own sins. So, justification here...is dependent on our own actions and decisions in life...according to Jesus' teachings. There are many other sayings of Jesus on the same topic...warning us to be awake and ready for His return....and to not be drowsy, lazy, careless and 'falling asleep'.
Here is my experience as a former Evangelical now Anglo/English Catholic. The Romans say we are saved by Faith and works; the Evangelical says we are saved by "faith alone". In practical reality, even though the evangelical says he/she is saved by "faith alone", they have lots of loving works in their life and are committed to Jesus. The typical Roman who says they are saved by faith and works, has very little good works in their life and are very nominal Christians in the majority of cases; in other words, from what I can tell, most Romans just go through the motions and don't live a very godly life outside the walls of the Church. Whereas, as a whole, evangelicals, although their doctrine says "by faith alone" they live by faith working in love. Not all Evangelicals are like this because there are a majority of Evangelicals who live like the the majority of Romans and do not apply the Gospel life to their daily life and are not ready when the Lord returns. They have let their lamps go out and are not ready, mostly goats in their actions and not sheep.
I don't know what an Anglo/English Catholic is, but it's gotta be wonderful to reside in a church where "most" parishioners don't have beams in their eyes, as Evangelicals and folk living in Rome obviously do.
As Christians, be you Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist or Pentecostal, we are constantly battling the God of this world, (Satan), with constant temptations to do wrong or evil…to be saved and go to Heaven, I believe, daily prayer, reading the Bible, doing good deeds, forgiving your enemies and your loved ones…basically, love your neighbour, follow the 10 commandments to your best ability…we were born with sin going back to the story of Adam and Eve, so taking that into consideration, our faith in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit will help us to garner favour with our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ as long as we walk with humility and repent for our sins, in the end, Jesus wants all souls to be saved and go to Heaven no matter what Christian denomination you identify with…
Great discussion, thank you, Peace and Love✌️❤️
Love to hear from Dr. Thomas
Me too!
Especially after hearing Jimmy Akin talk about this issue and going through the entire Catechism (in a year), I feel less certain about what the Church actually teaches about works and salvation. It appears that works are necessary for us to *remain saved* , but I wish someone would just speak directly and plainly about it. Also isn't a mortal sin of omission equivalent to failing to do a good work? Why does no one make the connection between refusing or neglecting to do good works and sins of omission??
What value does it have to understand each other? Is spiritual truth derived from a democracy of ideas? Protestants must accept the authority of the Church; any agreement between the two groups is merely superficial
Once we are in a state of grace, once we are again in communion with God as our loving Father, the nature of our good works change, as He works through us as His new children. Our good works are still nothing compared to God, like the scribbled crayon marks of a 4-year-old's first picture. Does a good parent tear up that picture and laugh at the child? Or put that "art work" up on the family refrigerator? Our God chooses to put our pathetic good deeds on the divine refrigerator, simply because God is Love, and we, though terrible sinners, are not "in the hands of an angry God" because of the saving Work of Christ. Our works have "merit" only because of God, as all good comes from God, and returns in praise to Him.
Sometimes our understanding of an idea is very much influenced by the subtle aspects of the language we use.
I am Slovak. My language has a special word that is used in theology (at least the Catholic one, I am not sure of the others) to signify "justification". I am not aware of other uses the term, it was probably coined specifically for this purpose because in the normal language it sounds a bit artificial. The word as it is can be only translated to mean "to make someone righteous", as far as my understanding of my native language allows me (I am not a linguist/Slovak language scholar).
It sounds similarly as the more normal word one would translate justification as, but that one has more the meaning of declaring someone righteous, or even more towards the meaning of excusing them (to excuse is the regular meaning of the normal Slovak word).
Ultimately God wants the Catholic Church and non- Catholic Protestants to be in full communion. To me rites are stylistic, like David dancing naked into Jerusalem. If you're a protestant and any of the Catholic rites offend you, look to gain humility. If you're a Catholic and any of the Protestant rites offend you, look to gain humility. Now, no two Christians fully believe exactly the same thing. But if the essence is there, there's concord. Communion. As a Catholic I can say we are saved by Grace alone. That the Holy Spirit provides us through that Grace, Faith, Hope, and works of Love. This is the biblical position that most Protestants I've talked to agree with. When they get into philosophical distinctions that are extra-biblical like Justification V. Sanctification, or the 5 Solas, well, I just don't get it.
epic episode
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching.
Just trying to understand the catholic position with Protestants, I know in Vatican 2 it expresses that Protestants are separated brethren and I’ve read a lot on the topic where many says Protestants in some way can be saved even tho they are outside the Catholic Church. I have tried defending this with many Protestants but, the objection I get that I have no idea how to defend is, anyone who commits a mortal sin falls out of a state of grace. So if as a Protestant I don’t attend mass, partake of the Eucharist or do confession all of which are mortal sins how could a Protestant ever have any ability of being saved from a catholic lens?
That’s a great and very thoughtful question. I would answer to say, a mortal sin requires “full knowledge” of the sin. So, unless a Protestant knew that they had an obligation to attend Mass they wouldn’t be committing mortal sin by not attending it.
As our Catholic bible says, with humans it is impossible. To paraphrase: All things are possible with God who will judge us by what we do in silence and when nobody's looking.
If we are saved by faith alone.......then why, if we have faith....do we need to "Pray always that you enter not into temptation?" ....which quote was explicitly taught by the mouth of Jesus Himself?
There's 5 Alone (Solas) Protestants hold to. They're obviously using the word Alone differently than you or I might use it. Like if I'm teaching a class in the middle school where I work and I tell them their grade will be based on the test Alone. And the next day I go and say their grade will be based on an in-class presentation Alone. And so on for 5 days, so that there are 5 Solas, obviously some folk are going to be confused. So the question for me is if Alone is used in such a way as there can be 5 Alones, do the 5 Solas open up this extra-biblical concept enough to include Christ's trilogy of Faith, Hope and Love in the Gospel? Or St. James's Faith and Works of Caritas?
Jesus teaches in many different parables about justification....and if these are ignored many mistakes might be made in assessing the nature of Justification. For instance, we have the parable of the wise and foolish virgins who were waiting for the Bridegroom to arrive. The foolish virgins were not allowed into the Wedding Feast. So we have an example of people NOT DOING something for aquiring salvation, that is....they did not take care to provide themselves extra flasks of lamp oil that they needed to follow the Bridegroom.
Also, If you are a Christian but do not forgive your 'Brother' when he sins against you...even 7 times in one day...but repents....God will not forgive you your own sins. So, justification here...is dependent on our own actions and decisions in life...according to Jesus' teachings.
There are many other sayings of Jesus on the same topic...warning us to be awake and ready for His return....and to not be drowsy, lazy, careless and 'falling asleep'.
We are saved by works and not by faith alone
Here is my experience as a former Evangelical now Anglo/English Catholic. The Romans say we are saved by Faith and works; the Evangelical says we are saved by "faith alone". In practical reality, even though the evangelical says he/she is saved by "faith alone", they have lots of loving works in their life and are committed to Jesus. The typical Roman who says they are saved by faith and works, has very little good works in their life and are very nominal Christians in the majority of cases; in other words, from what I can tell, most Romans just go through the motions and don't live a very godly life outside the walls of the Church. Whereas, as a whole, evangelicals, although their doctrine says "by faith alone" they live by faith working in love. Not all Evangelicals are like this because there are a majority of Evangelicals who live like the the majority of Romans and do not apply the Gospel life to their daily life and are not ready when the Lord returns. They have let their lamps go out and are not ready, mostly goats in their actions and not sheep.
I don't know what an Anglo/English Catholic is, but it's gotta be wonderful to reside in a church where "most" parishioners don't have beams in their eyes, as Evangelicals and folk living in Rome obviously do.