Getting the right sports hall light
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- čas přidán 27. 12. 2023
- What to do with failing fluorescents that are eight metres up in the air? Well, I'm joined on this one by a chap who is referred to by his friends as "John Ballbag"... and, curiously, by his enemies as "John Ballsac". It's a subtle distinction and easy to get wrong, especially after one Pimms & lemonade too many.
Yes, I know it's yet another video about changing out fluorescent to LED, and what is this now, the third such on this channel in 2023?? Still, this one is a little different in that it is a commercial environment where the use of the room very much must be considered.
So, as the song goes, 'join John Ballbag and me on a scissor lift for three' as we go up-up and away to the dizzying heights of this sports hall ceiling… before we piss off to the pub.
No, this isn't sponsored by Screwfix. It's just a quality Christmas jumper.
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www.srcelectronics.co.uk/
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Well, you know the thoughts this end about over-excited semiconductors, we shall say no more, lest the tube ban us for too much foul language.
Although they haven't banned you yet, so maybe we can let rip with a few choice expletives 🤬😋
Personally, I believe discharge lighting has been killed off prematurely. Without regulation to ensure LED technology is being made in a robust and sustainable manner, banning the likes of fluorescent encourages waste through the scrapping of fixtures and fittings that could have continued to provide years of service. in this particular case, the fittings were end-of-life, but I've seen examples of newer, robust luminaires being scrapped and swapped out for low-cost LED crap. I recently toured a school built in 2010 who had been convinced by a wholesaler to rip out all their flourescent fittings for LED instead of considering the conversion route which would mean less waste and ease of maintenance going forward. I put in the case for such, but I guess the wholesaler was more convincing, after all he had a lot more to lose if he couldn't make the sale. This is what we're up against - most others would have ripped out all this for high-bays because that's what the manufcaturers and wholesalers want to punt on. Never mind if they're right for the job, will last any great length of time or allow for easy maintenance. They don't care once the cash is in their pocket.
I did a big gymhall for local guy got cef’s lighting wizard went for twin fluorescent 4 pin stubby type,when the 3 extract fans were on it slowly turned into night had the place stripped to bits turned out was a dodgy dno joint under ground few miles away took years to sort out
@@dsesuk Absolutely, you've hit the nail on the head. Too much is being ripped out well before its time. This is the main reason I refuse to use LED; it's not because I don't admire the technology, I do, it's simply that we're being forced into them by removing all choice 🤬
Thanks for the chat earler, always good to have a waffle, catch up again soon, say hi to the cats for me
@@dsesuk unfortunately it's the way of the world. Manufacturers and wholesalers will do their best to sell new products and as they have the most money and power usually get their way shitting on.everybody else in the process.
@@dsesuk there's not a great deal wrong with discharge lighting. It's still highly efficient and there's little side effect from the heat of SON or HMI lamps. Mostly long service life too. The problem is people want LED fittings at the same price as they're used to, but if you want to reach the 20000+ hours life that's often stated, the parts cost would be too much for most buyers.
“More stuff is on the way” - hell yeah!
Mundane nonsense is on the horizon!
David - thanks for year of interesting content, looking forward to what 2024 brings. Hope you have a good New Year's. Cheers Mark
Generous as always Mark. Have a good New Years yourself matey!
Another great video David I overloaded on your videos yesterday I watch this and also your fight with a customer which never gets boring. Thanks a lot for making the effort of making these videos. I look forward to seeing more 2024 all the best
Oh dear. The food and booze stopping you from being more active?! There will be more in '24. Indeed, another this very evening as it turns out - if you're not sick of me by now!
Love the jumper!
Not sure where it was from. Toolstation maybe.
Thank David for another excellent video. I found this very interesting and informative . I could not of gone up on the lift thing no way . Not even with a safety harness. Oh and thanks for the chat on Christmas Eve, I trust you had a wonderful Christmas with your family. 👍
Cheers Sean, I had a good Xmas and no, I wasn't too happy up that friggin' lift! I hope your better half is doing okay?
@@dsesukyes she’s doing ok still in pain and having to have her Meals puréed . The doctors have let her stay home till Tuesday the she must go back in to hospital for her operation on Wednesday or Thursday. Fingers crossed. Thank you for asking.
Great Video thanks 😊💡
Definitely had a pint on brunch 😂
I am liking Dave for this, confident enough in his knowledge to use language bad enough to preclude use in colleges (nod to mr bundy)
Thanks for the shoutout. I’ll have to stick to my NYR of not letting my output schedule slip now.
An interesting video to watch there old chap interesting to see the difference between fluorescent and led with the data logger I was installing a crap led baton in the loft lets say I got peed off with it and ripped the light down & whacked the led bulb against a speaker I was surprised when the bulb smashed as I thought the tube was made of plastic not glass
Another good video, it will be interesting to see how they last, only time will tell but the 3 year warranty at least shows promise, and some level of manufacturer confidence.
Rest assured, if Fusion let me down, you'll hear about it on platforms such as this!
Thinking about those lights fittings, if they were hanging on chains I would off just replaced the holes fitting as I think it would off been easier and quicker? Just my own personal opinion. But you always do a good safe job whatever it is you do .
Merry Crimbo my old chuck. You wouldn’t catch me dead up that high. I’m old and crap enough as it it. Anyway, great video and happy fu++king new year 🎉
Why thank you old sausage. I can't say I was comfortable even though seven to eight metres doesn't sound like much! All the best for the new year yourself, and thanks for all your comments over the past months!
@@dsesuk it’s true I’ve binged on your videos but I do miss old fuckface Nigel. I’m retiring for the second time due to some twats in Whitehall changing regs to make our job a bigger nightmare. Have a great new year old crouton.
I hope you had a merry Christmas... I mean: I hope the alcohol poisoning wasn't too severe. Thank you for another interesting, informative, and educational video. 'Best wishes for a happy and prosperous new year. :)
Seasons greetings to you too. Speaking of the alcohol, not too early to pop one open is it??
@@dsesuk Is it Christmas?
@@Sharron-Idol That was last week.
@@TestGearJunkie. Yep. Next week it'll have been two weeks ago... But in 51 weeks the answer will be "yes". :)
Hi Dave...had an idea....how about an AFDD follow up vid......
Seriously...keep them coming another great vid, thanks for reply on threads and have a great New Year
Hm. AFDDs you say?? Well... I suppose I might be able to rustle up something...
Happy New Year 🍺🍻🍺🥃🥳
Chin chin old fruit!
Good video dude, looking forward to another AFDD video. Interested in what Hager have to say.
Thanks for your recent contribution!
7 or 8 meters high. Not sure that is a job for me. I done a scissor lift to 4 meters once and I did not enjoy it at all.
I found the PEL stuff really interesting. I never knew a failling or striking tube would use the same power or more than a fully function florencent. Keep up the great work David.
Thanks for another masterpiece, I mean piece of p1ss. Lol. Your new setup is looking like a smaller "technology connections" set. I too, have a collection of road barrier lanterns, going back to the kerosene types
For some reason I seem to have quite a few barrier lanterns here Jim. I really don't know why!
Sylvania are making a range of T5 and T8 linear fluorescent LED retrofit lamps based on the LED filament technology which look very good indeed! It's called the Helios lamp.
www.sylvania-lighting.com/media/6737/sylvania-helios-led-brochure.pdf
@@FrontSideBus Sylvania ought to be a safe bet, but then you'd think that with Philips and Crompton too and their LED offerings have been dreadful. The Helios range is interesting though. I don't know of anyone flogging it yet and I imagine it costs a pretty penny, but I'd like to get hold of an example!
@@dsesuk The only downside is that they need an external driver but then nobody complained about fluorescent lamps needing an external ballast. They look the best IMO as these have true 360' light output that matches traditional lamps perfectly. I've seen too many retrofit installations that look utter shit as they have used lamps that only kick out light from one side!
Skyjack the rolls Royce of scissor lifts
Darn tootin'! The thing even had a Blaupunkt!
Great to see you doing some commercial stuff lots of bad memories about scissor lifts and sports hall lighting, never enjoyed that really.
Neither did I. Although that's because I was stuck on a lift with John.
We use the osram 5ft retrofits at scale where we work supplied from Rexel, and these do fail in sections of the tube start to flicker. However its a less than 5% fail rate based on the amount we have used.
Oh yeah, that's summat I forgot to mention, can you give tube measurements in feet please, Dave..? To me, fluorescents are 2ft, 3ft, 4ft, 5ft, 6ft and 8ft. These milli-things are meaningless to someone as old and decrepit as I am 😉
What a snazzy jumper David.
I sport these fine fashions so you don't have to!
The floods in the hungry horse when the laydeez see you walking in with that on.
I'd love one of those screwfix jumpers... out of stock everywhere.
Mine was twenty quid, but they dropped to fifteen just before Christmas! Bah humbug!
@@dsesuk They should be paying you to walk around advertising them. I'd send an invoice.
Goddam bundy’s beard, an interesting and very informative video, delivered enthusiastically ❤
Thank you for another Great year of content Davo, shame its been quiet since Nige parted but I'm sure you will find a new path forward fella, your nothing if not resourceful.
Have a good New Years old fruit - we'll catch up on the flip side I'm sure!
Hey Dave hope you had a good christmas
I was on the tools right up to the end of Christmas Eve, but since then much alcohol has been put away Ellis!
@@dsesuk Time to rest up now dave, have a lager and a cheeky bum wank
@@grannywaffle Waaaay ahead of you mate.
@@dsesuk 😂😂
Are you planning to take that Screwfix jumper back? 😂
Hello David old chap another cracking episode i was thinking do they make a led replacement fitting the same size as the old one i know myself once you start messing with the old ones they just fall to bits at least with led lamps there is less heat generated so your repair method should last a long time. looking forward to your next exiting episode have a good xmas and a sober new year.
Fitzgerald used to make a LED batten - a standard batten without the ballast or starter installed. It was ideal for popping up and sticking LED tubes into. I don't know if they still do it.
What happened to Nige?
Merry Christmas David, thanks for the informative and entertaining content!
Nige is up to his elbows in the likes of LED conversions at a local educational establishment having left at the end of August. Kind of out of the fire and into the frying pan, but he gets paid more.
We all asked that question for years
Look at all them LEDs in your test CU. How many arc devices do you have now 😂
Good evening sir 😎
Top o' the evening to you Dickie old chap.
without Nige the videos don't smell like eggs anymore and it just isn't the same.
Nige left a brown-stained bum impression on the van seat that few would be able to fill (or would want to).
It's like mum ran off with the milkman and dad sat around in his pants crying........😂
So Dave did you mention what is might be the content of the next video? As I seem to of missed your mention, and you have really put me off Hager AFDD’s
As it turns out, I guarantee the next one won't be about AFDDs!
You crack me up, its very common to replace Bi-Pin Sockets, and replace the ballast in fluorescent lights. as a electrical Apprentice here in the states. and very often we relamp with Led tubes and abandon the ballast.I understand the fascination with the current draw.but I'm not paying the bill so I don't give a s***. I only really care for my own knowledge. your customer has no clue. and if a job requires a scissor lift for safely to do the job then that's included in the original quote.your customers paying for that scissor lift. it's not my fault that your lights are 30 ft above my head. Happy New year.
The current measurements help to calculate the payback period. Most of the time a conversion job will have paid its way after a couple of years assuming the LED tubes don't just pop the moment the manufacturer warranty expires!
I had to google what you meant by 'tombstone' 🤔🤔🤣🤣
As I read your comment the tombstone “ was mentioned, spooky!
Great vid, happy new year David. Hopefully it’s my last full year on the tools, I’m hoping to be a semi retired wanker.
Thamks old sport, seasons greetings right back atcha! I hope the retirement plan works out!
Surely you never retire from being a wanker..? 😋
Are you sure they don’t fit the fuse link into the led tubes so Mr Domestic can just fit them without needing to bypass the coke etc.
Turn the volume up Dave
Thanks
Thanks again for an (even more) recent contribution! I've just recorded a shout for the next one, so sorry you'll miss that!
interesting your a harness on a scissor lift guy. plus i was looking at the tis line splitter but couldnt justify the cost. happy new year.
I want a bungee rope and a parachute atop a step ladder!
@@dsesuk I too am not a step ladder person I try to avoid as best I can.
I need one of those line splitters, how much are they..?
@@rlfvacslakenheath Heh. Being a short-arse, I remember once asking for one of those kick-step things you see in libraries and similar places, to be able to reach some high shelves in the office. I was told I couldn't have one, as I might fall off it and hurt myself. I could have a step ladder, though 🙄
@@TestGearJunkie. The tis line splitter is £50 from cef
What happened with the damaged tombstones in the end? Did you manage to find a suitable replacement, or just ran those particular fittings with only two tubes or so? Maybe a generic push-on replacement and zip tie the tube up or something?
All 45 tubes were fitted, so for those we mechanically supported the lamps with a T8 clip and 'blanked' off the fused end with a choc block. Not exactly ideal, but nobody else is getting up to those fittings without having some clue of what they're looking at.
Sad, those og fittings likely needed tubes and starters when the tubes were just glowing ends (and not baking for years) and could've kept going.
Aside from the buzzing, magnetic ballast flouro lighting are ridiculously reliable, with good tubes.
Fluorescent is a robust and reliable technology being forcibly obsoleted before its time.
@@dsesuk As with all other forms of lighting, sadly 😿
loyal follower here dave, thankyou for the explanation of the tubes and demo with current draw. could you explain something to me please ! Q - i've just upgraded some twin 6ft's to LED and they work perfectly even though there still wired through the Ballast, i understand the starter they supply is just a link but don't get how they work through the ballast. can you Help me understand ? yours sincerley a DSES disciple.
With the starter linked out, the ballast is just a wire coil adding resistance and inductance to the circuit, although neither are needed. Current would flow through the ballast (creating a magnetic field to no effect), passing into the L pin of the LED tube where it travels through the driver and LED chips within the tube and out at the far end. Here it passes from one pin back into the other via an internal link., then back through an internal neutral track along the tube and out at the N pin. It then passes via the fused 'starter' link back to supply neutral. Leaving the ballast in adds losses and makes it less efficient because the coil is humming away making magnetic fields nobody needs and those fields, when they collapse, can induce a spike into the LED tubes which an internal suppressor irons out (although that may eventually wear out leaving the driver exposed), but presence of a ballast doesn't stop the current path or prevent the LED tube from lighting. Of course, this only works if it's an old magnetic ballast - a fitting with an electronic driver would need that to be wired out.
Legend thankyou, i suspected something like that but wasn't sure. keep up the great work that helps us thicko's@@dsesuk
Have you returned that jumper then? Still brand new with tag.
Took it back on Boxing Day.
@@dsesuk What did they say when you took it for a refund at toolstation?
What tool is that Dave that reads of reactance and Power Factor... Thats bomkers
That's tha Chauvin Arnoux PEL51. I've a video called 'Vlogging Energy Logging' which goes into more depth on that bad-boy. You can also find it on the Chauvin Arnoux UK CZcams channel.
Took us three attempts to get an LED tube delivered that wasn't already shattered in the box. We had some before that were a fully plastic tube, they never would have had this issue. Really don't understand the need to keep making them out of glass now that they don't have to deal with UV and phosphors anymore.
My CEF account manager said he's expect some to arrive broken, but despite ordering 26 for Chauvin Arnoux and 45 for this job, none were busted on arrival. That broken one was down to my own clumsiness. Surprising too that the 1800mm models as used at Chauvin are plastic rather than glass as they could use the rigidity.
Sag.
Plastic tubes change shape with heat and gain droop over time
@@voltare2amstereo I'd still rather that, than three boxes of broken glass that were a hassle to safely dispose of. Also LED so shouldn't be any heat.
@@voltare2amstereo Yep I've seen plastic ones sag so much they've fallen out of the fitting. Ok for some applications but others do require glass
Thanks for another death-defying video David, but why, oh why, are all the light fttings ABOVE the metal tensioning rods, when they could be hanging from them, giving more even, shadow-free, light distribution and higher lux readings at floor level? 🧐
I think that place was built without much thought into how it could be maintained!
These kinda places are run by committee and you can never get anyone to make a decision
Still got a Fitzgerald fluorescent in the kitchen.
Made in Britain.
Solid.
Ill keep it thanks 🎉
Got a couple of them here, brilliant in more ways than one.
Fitzgerald used to make a LED batten - a standard batten without the ballast or starter installed. It was ideal for popping up and sticking a LED tube into.
Did you replace the burnt-out lamp holders?
No, we provided mechanical support for the new tubes and 'blanked off' the fused end.
Are you able to buy replacement tombstones? Are they a standard part? You didn’t say how you fixed them, if you did.
It was remiss of me not to mention what we did about that. Although replacement tombstones can be sourced, we instead removed the two failed ends, powered the LED tube from just the good end and used a T8 clip drilled into the luminaire to support the 'loose' end of the tube. The pins on the fused end of the tube were choc-blocked off to make them less accessible to touch, not that anybody is likely to be waving their hands around inside the thing without some effort. Not ideal, but mechanically and electrically sound.
Ive missed a lot this year, wheres nigel?
He's moved on to bigger and brighter things... which is why I'm having to slum it with John Ballbag!
👌
Cheers for the beers on this one
22:38. Do one more b4 lunch? 😮 Nige would never of saidnl that.
The lighting industry is fecked.
My Daughters school had very expensive thorlux led lighting in the corridors. They're currently having a major refurb and I notice they've got rid of them and fitted likely much cheaper and lower quality panels.
In the hall they've taken out 6x 6ft twin ip rated fluorescent fittings to fit 6 very glary, very bright compact led hibays. They're awful. And cast shadows half way down the walls.
I've seen good led conversions too, my local swimming pool had their old halide floods (which had had led cobs retrofitted that kept flickering) removed and nice led floods fitted. They're very good - the leds seem to have nice optics that spread the light - if you look directly at the light it looks quite dim but from the side it looks much brighter. They've obviously thought about it!
There's some road tunnels under a shopping centre near me. When built in 2002 they put up a combination of fluorescent and son lights and the idea was always that various combinations of lights would come on as the outdoor brightness fluctuates - on a sunny day more lights would come on. In reality the system never worked properly and often defaulted to full brightness, even at night! They recently changed to led. Again, nice fittings with fancy optics, and the brightness modulation actually works, 20 years late! 😂
@David DSES. Have you seen ??
Draft for Public Comment - IET Open combined protective and neutral (PEN) conductor detection devices (OPDDs)
I know the above does not relate to this video
I haven't kept my eye on the ball of late Sergio so this one has passed me by. Is it a riveting read or a website that feels like treacle to plough through?
My lava lamp isn't a happy bunny 😢
It should still be possible to source the incandescent reflector lamps. The lighting ban is for lamps used to light spaces - those with other applications can still be sold for such applications. It might be hard to find them though, but the likes of Mathmos who make lava lamps will still be punting them.
@@dsesuk At a price, have you seen how much Mathmos charge for lava lamps these days..? 😮
None spark here. Could you explain the VA, and KA numbers at all, and what the changes mean. You mention resistive and capacitive almost implying (to my ear) that capacitive is better. Would that be resistive gobbling up the juice and just dumping it out as wasted heat, whereby capacitive would suggest its some how storing (????) the excess power.
Power Factor if I am remembering correctly is the concept of the pint of beer, where 1.0 would be a full pint to the brim, and as the number reduces thats the "foam" increasing, resulting in you getting less drunk, but more poor?
Thanks in advance all.
My (long and boring) energy logging video went into greater detail a couple of months ago, but just quickly - resistive would be the electrical energy doing something useful (if I said resistive in this video then it was an error as the fluorescents would have been inductive). Inductive and capacitive loads see energy being 'lost' in magnetic or electric fields respecively which isn't a bad thing as such fields are necessary for the operation of certain devices, nonetheless, you don't want excessive losses. You want your electrical energy turned directly into light, not pissed away in the creation of magnetic or inductive fields! Capacitive is not better, it's just expected where LED electronics have replaced fluoresent ballasts because the LED circuitry needs the properties of electric fields, the fluorescent ballasts need the properties of magnetic fields. These fields represent the reactive power in VAr, and the closer to zero that is, the more efficient the bang for our buck gets. The apparent power (in Volt Amps) is a function of the actual power in Watts and the reactive power in VAr. Again, the nearer zero it is, the lower our losses are (and the more our electrical power is being turned directly into light). Power factor is the ratio of power in to power out. No reactive losses would see a power factor of 1:1 - like on a resistive heater where 100% of the electricity in is turned into 100% heat out because it's resistive with no electric or magnetic fields. Because these fluoro's are old, a lot of energy is being lost in inefficient magnetic fields giving a crap power factor of about 50%. The newer LED lights lose some power through capacitance, but it's not nearly so much giving a power factor of about 92%. The beer analogy is correct - a liquid pint to the brim of the glass is 100% efficient while an inductive or capacitive load would see a head take up some of the glass volume. In the case of the fluorescents here, that head takes up half the glass whereas the LED lighting puts a small head on top where we expect it to be. I hope that makes some sense. I've had a lot of wine...
@@dsesuk Fantastically explained in layman's terms. Thanks for the very detailed explaination/re-summary.
Enjoy your wine, and I'll look forward to the next fantastically informative and entertaining video.
@@Fishbait075 Why, thank you for the booze old fish. You just missed out on the latest shout that has just been recoreded for the next one! You'll be first after that however!
@@dsesuk Yawtube Famos! Finally, haha.
Shame Philips and Osram have gone down the shitter. Used to be the Sony Trinitron of lighting.
I agree. It's painful to see once such respected marques sell out.
@@dsesuk Anton Philips must be rolling in his grave.
Did you wrestle john naked on the floor before you left? Bit of sword fighting?Also did ye kiss like on the mouth and does john kiss like a washing machine?
Yes, no, yes and yes.
@@dsesuk my hero ❤️ 🙌 ♥️
"Powerstart" starters are absolute garbage. The only issue I've had with longer retrofit led tube is they seem to sag over time. Then they can give marginal contact on the pins.
We found the 1800mm versions were plastic and saggy in the middle. We used a T8 clip screwed into the batten to take the weight.
I did a carpet show room in a old mill where the owner got 8ft led replacements all were saggy so much some fell out, told him put a few tie wraps around it so least it won’t drop out on somebody’s head, then went in and swapped all fittings out for led grid fittings as it already had a grid ceiling fitted so made it a lot cleaner looking.
What kind of person opts for lasagne over deep fried goodness??
I know Steve; it's friggin' odd. He threw in the chicken wings to try to recover face, but you and I remain disappointed.
@dsesuk by the way, the similar current reading across those failed tubes is largely expected. The choke is limiting the current through its inductive reactance. If you shorted the tube, you'd still read similar.
Tedious? Absolute doddle compared to fitting 650 fire heads in a hotel all on my jack back in the day.
The tedium is more to do with thinking anyone would want to watch it if uploaded to CZcams!
What do neen a harness for?
On this type of lift you don't... however I'm not one for heights.
@@dsesukheights won't kill you😂😂
@@ajones8699 Maybe not, but the bloody ground will!
@@dsesuk I don't mind heights, I don't even mind the falling that much. It's the hitting the ground at high speed bit that I'm not keen on 😵💫
What happened to that Linda woman you had helping you ?? is that your wife or a Nigel replacement ?? Like a bird you can talk sence too !! lol
Linda will be appearing on another vid quite soon. Interestingly enough, it's a video about chaning discharge lighting to LED... like that's not been done before...
@@dsesuk Do it the other way around and you'll get me interested, I'll even come and help, I can out-Linda Linda any day, especially in the swearing department 😁
👍💡
Thought Mr Ballbag did multimillion pound jobs. Not working with you 😂
Occasionally he slums it in Leamington Spa!
I've noticed that over the years, the quality of those LED tube lights have severely downgraded.
Is there a particular brand you've been using?
Ironic that the only sport marked-out is badminton but the positioning of the lights (and the colours on the walls for that matter) are just about as bad as they can be for the sport!
Losing track of one's shuttlecock perhaps explains why so many were on top of those ceiling heaters!