SNIPERS: A Nightmare for Developers and Players
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- čas přidán 17. 05. 2024
- The Unbalanced Problems with Snipers in Video Games.
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⍜ Timestamps
00:00 - The beginning or Arch
00:47 - All the Guns
04:12 - Is there really a problem?
10:16 - A rushed history of Snipers
14:11 - The stat change part
22:36 - 3 Solutions
29:48 - Conclusion
Arch is a channel that releases high quality 30+ min videos on media like games, series and movies. - Zábava
I recall an old quote of Tf2s balancing issues. It went something like: "Not one class was designed around an individual player having 50k hours of playtime on said class."
That is the only thing we are supposed to say when someone says sniper is unbalanced. I have been playing tf2 for years and i only have 600 hours. Its also because i play many other games and online shooters but you get the idea. How to solve sniper issue? Well, this is a life issue. The issue is that some people dont have it.
@@zombine7103 problem: people dont have lives
Solution: *t a k e i t f r o m t h e m*
@@Randus1058 thats a goo-*aahhhaamm* an evil approach.
@@Randus1058 lmfao
@@zombine7103 what can I say… evil is effective
Another thing to consider is hitscan vs projectile. The original snipers in fortnite had massive travel times making shots far harder to hit and feel much more fun to use and fight.
Few things as nice as firing a projectile at an angle you know will be peeked and crouching into cover to hear the kill sound.
It makes for great mindgames and also encourages thinking ahead, as opposed to "just" pointing at heads.
The Huntsman begs to differ
Didn't the snipers in both Titanfall games also work like this? I remember them not only having travel time like but also some bullet drop, requiring you to lob your shots depending on how far away you are.
@@dukeradwardthe5th843 more of a gimmicky weapon, no?
@@dukeradwardthe5th843 can't 1 shot on a fully charged body shot so it's balanced in my opinion
Splatoon is not exactly an FPS game but honestly it's definitely figured out how to make a fair sniper in my opinion. All they did was add a forced wind up every time you take a shot, and sprinting forces you to wind up all over again. However *EVERY* sniper one shots no matter what when you land a hit. This completely changes how snipers play in Splatoon, because it forces the sniper to be a lot more committal with their aim and makes more chances to bait out shots without instantly dying. And this also allows the devs to make entirely new ways to balance snipers, by making faster charging ones with less range, and slower charging ones with more range. It's a unique take on snipers that I'd like to see if it's possible to be put into a FPS game one day.
One other thing to note in Splatoon is that snipers have pinpointers not just visible to you, but to everyone else in the game, which generally makes fights a lot less "hold this one angle".
Can you elaborate more on how the sniper there works? I'm confused
@@-RandomStranger-
Charger (sniper) has a (you guessed it) charge up time, during this charge time you move extremely slowly with most chargers, you can hold the charge as long as you want but you have to be slowed. They ALWAYS one shot on body and head, with only a few exceptions. It forces you to be committed to making plays.
@@CalciumEnjoyer the sniper in tf2 has the same mechanics and hes still hated, except he only oneshots 5 classes in the game with a bodyshot, but a lot of snipers still have a moral code to try and aim for headshots, even if they're fully charged
To clarify,, you cannot passively charge it or hold that charge. You must choose to charge it and then release
@@stavbearer9878 and that seems like the huntsman, the tf2 weapon all players like/ars fine with(excluding the bugs)
I know I’ll get buried and I’m late to the party but here we go: a solution I haven’t seen mentioned yet is what Phantom Forces does with the gyro-jet carbine. For those who don’t know I’ll explain:
The gyro-jet in Phantom forces has a reverted curve for damage. This meaning that damage scales with distance. This is accurate to real life actually where the bullets are just glorified rockets.
Applying this concept to all snipers would mean that on short ranges they do little damage, where on long range they deal massive damage. Granted you would probably also have to apply a curve to discourage mid range use but I digress. I think this is the best simple solution to this problem. I also realize that this would make the game way less realistic but I think this is the best solution.
Another thing they did was with the M107 Barrett, it did low damage that went up to a certain point, then a ways after it went back down again making it most effective between there
Alternatively, if you have a points system, you can do exactly what you mentioned but with points instead - up close kills results in minimal points, so people who do this barely get any reward for doing it.
phantom forces is indeed amazing for sniper balance, but you're forgetting the fact that you can equip a shotgun shorty or whatever its called now (used to be serbu shorty, i haven't played in a bit but i know it changed) and a sniper rifle. i use this strategy and it is... a little bit overpowered, to say the least. i immediately kill anyone at most ranges (the few ranges i don't cover tend to be absent on most maps)
though, i mostly target higher-level people because i think its good aim training, and i don't use the body-shot snipers like bfg 50 or hecate 2.
@@remingtonn_ yea but that seems like it's outside of the scope (haha) of balancing the sniper itself. Sounds like it could easily be addressed by changing the secondary gun draw speed, or the time it takes to switch between any two guns in general, etc. The sniper balancing itself sounds like a good idea. I personally like that one more than the one in the video.
Coming from CS player POV - a hard distinction between "short", "mid" and "long" range at arbitrary distances feels like a terrible idea, along with having to account for time. Imagine thinking you are in range to kill, just to do 75 damage because you are 10 units off with your distance*time calculation. A damage curve sounds so much better - you only need to account for a specific distance, after which it is one shot kill always.
Ehhhhhh a gyrojet will still kill within 10 feet lol. Watch Branden Herreras video on it
Many games have mechanics similar to over-penetration. Simply, you do less damage up close because they just go clean through the target. This also has the fun mechanic of walbangs dealing MORE damage at close range
correct me if im wrong but I remember halo 3 having this
or it was suposed to have this
I found a limited edition version of the game many years ago, the one that came with a book on enemys and weapons
and i remember it saying in that book each of the weapons damages at diferent ranges, with long range weapons doing less damage at closer ranges
but at the same time I do not remember ever feeling like this mechanic was in the game itself
I find it funny how he does mention Battlefield, but not that Battlefield 1 has exactly the mechanic you mentioned here. It's even used to differentiate the rifles against each other, with different rifles having different one hit zones.
1:46 There could be more aspects depending on the game, mobility can branch out into aiming walkspeed and hip walkspeed, handling could branch into recoil, ADS time, or sway, and range could branch into a damage range (less damage over long ranges) or velocity which is how fast a bullet travels.
I was about to comment something like this, another solution is make the shotgun have better rof and mobility and handling than the sniper
@@Right1994exactly
You forgot to mention the ORIGINAL Team Fortress, which was based on Quake. The Sniper had a gradual zoom that zoomed in over a few seconds and got more powerful as it zoomed. So it got harder to aim at the same time as it got more powerful. Shooting unzoomed was about the same damage as a standard rifle.
It's also was the first Unreal Tournament by the time of CS1.6, which had pretty deadly sniper rifle, especcially on large maps. And yep, it looked like balance as all the guns have some killer features like really big boom or dedly substance blobs spawns
THANK YOU. I got so annoyed when he skipped TFC and went straight to Counter-Strike.
ya he didnt mention UT or TFC, zzz
Man the biggest challenge with sniper in the original quakeworld TF mod for quake was the fact we were all playing on a dialup connection back then.
I was rocking a 14.4 dialup connection on AOL back then. I didn’t hit many sniper shots.
@@metl6929 TFC, Half life (had an actual sniper weapon) or Quake 2. The guy must be very young to not know all these games.
I think one of the main frustrations especially with tf2 is how unfun it feels to fight a sniper where you’ll be fighting someone else or doing something else and die suddenly and without warning out of nowhere from across the map with the best counter play being simply to avoid them that generally leads to a lack of feedback and general displeasure in the matchup especially with sniper being the only long range class in the game with all the others being mid to close range
The main problem in CoD series snipers are the quickscopes. as soon as the ads animation starts, the bullet spread is completly removed meaning, you can just press RMB and LMB together and can one shot a guy at close range, completly skipping the ads part. One fix for this can be to delay the spread removing effect, so that upon ads-ing you will achieve the pinpoint accuracy after completly scoping.
Let's not forget that in CS:GO a lot of gameplay revolves around sound cues. the sniper makes noise when you scope in, so players have the choice of walking around scoped in which leaves them open to more angles, or staying unscoped, increasing time to kill, as the snipers are still inaccurate for a few moments after ADS. In higher level CS, giving away your position is almost always a death wish
you also need to constantly reposition and have bad mobility for at least a little bit before you whip out the knife, which is too late when you're already getting slowed by shots. Anyone that's not an MG lowelo dog can easily win awps
and this is why woxic plays on serial killer high sens so he never has to scope out hahaha
Moreover, the amount of money you recieve after kill are the lowest, if we deeply look onto in-game economics, you can get a kill or two, still die with lost round and not get a new rifle in the next. This ultimately pushes the player to analyse, are they confident to make a push in enemy controlled territory or they would rather save it to the next round, thus keeping on team-economy with high valued gun. That's what I think is the best balance point in tactical shooters. Snipers almost everytime have a low balance so they have to rely on their teammates or switch gameplay to money grinding SMG's/shotguns e.t.c
...only if you've got headpones on, and they're cranked up to EAR BLEEDING. They're basically legal wall hacking and I've never agreed with the people who believe it's realistic to turn footfall up to 11 and still call it "fair and tactical" gameplay
@@iller3 you can hear scoping on any volume, you don't need your volume through the roof. I'm pretty sure you can hear it even on speakers, but idk why anyone would do that to themselves.
quickscoping becoming it’s own thing just made this fight that much more complicated
shotgun slugs with similar range to shotguns but more damage?
quickscoping is not the problem and it should be rewarded, a quick scope upclose takes skill and is not easy to do and so when you nerf quickscoping you basically cap the skill ceiling and reward long range 1 hit 1 kill with no consequences to doing so, thats why the best possible fix for it is damage falloff that still rewards close range quickscopes but discourages long the long range camping.
@@MidoEl Quickscoping is the problem you shouldn’t be rewarded for using a long range weapon in close range. Snipers should be boring and campy its what they’re made for you should be playing around them not running in a straight line towards them. There are multiple ways to bait snipers(jiggle peeking, jump peeking, utility, etc), and get close but if you get clapped easily even at close range then theres no real viable strategy to handle them just pray they miss.
@@MidoEl nah it should be the opposite. The sniper should do LESS damage at close range. That sounds stupid, right? yes it does, but an explanation could be over-penetration causing the bullet to do less damage. This way would be the best way to balance snipers in my opinion
@@GamerGod-fp1tj what about giving it high inaccuracy when aiming the weapon with your mouse quickly?
Unreal Tournament 99' is the oldest game I know to have a sniper and some fairly large maps that you can use it, it was headshot one tap and some torso shots one tap on a non-armoured wounded enemies. It had no scope walking movement so aiming was pretty easy against some player types that don't utilize the movement which this game was known for besides the weapon types hence balancing the power of the sniper in close quarters and in the open by giving them the double movement key tap to quick dash.
I have fond memories of sniping from the top of the towers in facing worlds in that game
I am planning on making an FPS shooter, but struggled with finding a good Sniper solution
thx for not only mentioning the issues, but also possible solutions for it
My personal favorite solution is when shotties and snipers aren’t weapons you spawn with but function more like a power up, like in halo
Just pull a fortnite and make the aiming stupidly inconsistent for hip firing so you basically have zero chance if you dont use the scope
an idea i had yesterday was to make the bullets "rocket propelled/accelerated". basically the longer the bullet travels the more damage it does
please for the love of god... whatever you do... never give a sniper the option for a shotgun as a secondary (or if you do, nerf it). this is a deliberate tactic i use in some FPS games and it can be HORRIBLY overpowered.
@@remingtonn_Best long range weapon and best close range weapon together? What could go wrong!
Who would have guessed that the single most terrifying enemy combatant in reality would also take the fun out of a combat game designed to suspend disbelief about the horror of warfare?
Yeah, everyone calls snipers unbalanced, but never know how nightmarish it is to be IRL solider, stuck in the open, with an enemy sniper pinning you down. And just like in the games, you don't know where they are.
Snipers are a menace in real life like that.
but those irl snipers don't kill on close range :D
this video game sniper nonsense is so idiotic to me in general. just aim for one millisecond and hit headshots... yeah right
@@sebw89 I presume (with an un-educated guess) that the reason we don't solve all wars with close-range sniper duels, is because they're bulky and it takes considerably more strength to hold them up or spin around with them to take aim.
How do we translate that to video games though? No matter how close in-game you stand to a wall, you're never going to accidently hit said wall with the gun barrel, character movement has to be responsive and not realistic, etc.
It's a god-damn mess!
@@silver1340 you could make it so that people carrying a sniper rifle move slower than others.
@@destroyerofturtles5024 Lower it too much, and the weapon itself becomes unviable to reliably carry. At most it makes people switch to other weapons more (knife) for increased mobility, which also increases time to take a shot as you have to pull out the sniper, but in the end it just turns annoying.
Perhaps some simulation of weapon weight (slower movement speed) + respecting their bulky nature (drag when looking around with weapon out), the latter of which is unnoticeable on compact weapons such as SMG?
Battlefield 1 utilized a "sweet spot" mechanic. The snipers had a specific range for 1 shot body kills, for example: 150m - 180m. Ranges closer than or further than this "sweet spot" become ~2+ shot(s) to kill. It worked well in BF1 and was really fun. Though it's a viable balance idea due to Battlefield's projectile based weapons and large maps.
yea but iv come to close to screaming the n word coz someone sniped me from 200 meters away and theres nothing i could do abt it, causing a decrease in fun for close-quater players
@@prince0panda914 Just admit you have racist tendencies without blaming the game LMAO
@@oba9ara every gamer, racist or not, has come close or has said the n word at least once.
that was my first thought too going into the video, that the sniper could just be modified to be weaker on closer targets. other solution could be that its accuracy would become worse the closer the target is, where being too close to an otherwise clear shot will make it have a much higher chance of bullet spreading away from a target than a shotgun would around corners. the game can show your vision gradually blurring more and more while scoped, the more you aim at closer surfaces, until it becomes completely blurred aiming at something right in front of you. so shotgun would pretty much always win even with a whole wasted mag. would completely discourage anyone from even attempting to use a sniper in close combat, so snipers stick to zones they are capable in. bonus balancing point could be that if target moves into you, they shove your sniper rifle aside so you cant shoot them at all, so you are forced to use secondary in corners where you can get caught off guard. like how some games disable using bows if warriors get too close, makes aiming impossible. i feel like i have seen so many action movies where people grab pistols to disarm someone from shooting, its strange no one thought of it as a balance against sniper rifles. those guys probably dont want you to push around their heavy and unbalanced gun while sticking your smgs in their face lol
@@oba9ara I was exaggerating for dramatic effect I don’t use the n-word when I get sniped
suppression fire mechanics could work for non-snipers fighting snipers. they start shooting at the sniper, and even if they don't hit, if the bullets gets close to hitting, it shakes the screen of the sniper and disorients them
ngl but when I get killed by a sniper in my head I'm like "nice shot bro" but when I get killed by a shotgun at a distance where the spread shouldn't even do more than 10, "Bro I could've one something dammit"
The sniper also has balancing options with map design as too many clear sightlines means you have too much long range availability. However, if you let those vantage points exist with some form of path to the point that isn't visible from the point, you can somewhat balance that
but that just means an class in game with 8-12 shrikens alot of the creativity and kind of maps you can make
The best solution to the Sniper issue is to not add it in the first place.
Bazookas! Clear sight lines no problem, just barrage the shit out of any obvious sniping position.
Same thing for utility... Snipers are balanced by having their usual position being flashed or their view blocked by smokes
@@vivelespatat2670 That's also how you lose millions of players as well. You'll still play the game if there are snipers, I won't play the game if I can't snipe.
America’s Army 2 was the game that best solved the sniper issue with completely different tools. The aim naturally shakes a lot, and is magnified by the scope. You have to stay still and be crouched or proned. It also takes time for your breathing to calm down, specially if you were running. Still, your aim is never static. You can forget about using a Sniper in close quarters.
AA 2 best game ever...... No scope/crosshair MOS mount mekenna .. I wish i could still play it :( Back when bunny hopping was a bannable offence. Now its just a 13 year olds way of moving ugh the good old days haha
This is very much what I was going to say - although I didn't have an example ready. This is a more fair, fun, and realistic way to balance a sniper rifle than any of the balances mentioned in the video.
@@craig5340 bunny hopping is annoying, but banning people for bunny hopping is pretty petty and lame.
@@DeadSpacedOut Never said I want it banned I am telling you this is how it used to be . For the people around for the entire fps genre
@@craig5340 I didn't say you said you wanted that, all I said was that it's petty and lame.
I find it interesting that you were looking for games in the late 90s to early 2000s that had snipers, and while showing quake, didn't look at unreal tournament, which came out in 1999 and had a sniper rifle featured as one of the prominent weapons.
Yeah, when he said "game that defined the multiplayer first-person shooter genre" I expected Unreal Tournament, not a Half-Life mod lol
8:25 bro hitting something like this is impossible for 99.9% of players
The game Project Reality has a feature known as “stability.” The way it works is that if you move around and then aim down sights, your shots will have higher deviation. In order to shoot accurately, you have stay still for a moment to stabilize your gun.
Exactly my thoughts watching this video, and why I have mostly dropped casual shooters (who needs "weapon balance" when the biggest threats are grenades, vehicles and artillery? Lol)
Destiny2 also balances their snipers this way, and it's why they feel great
Same with cod for quickscoping you let go of all movement keys for a couple milliseconds then shoot
Didn't excpected that PR would be mentioned here, but I'm glad you did :3
@@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong no they feel great because they game literally has aimbot.
One thing you didn't touch on at least for CS GO is that when you buy a sniper, you also gamble on the chance that if you die with it, you just handed a powerful weapon over to the other team. I think that in itself can be a partial balancing factor. Especially if you cant afford another one/good weapons next round.
Furthermore, it is very easy to bait out a shot from the AWP and push immediately afterwards while it still reloads
Team coordination makes this even easier
Also utility balences snipers alot
@@LuxthXO agree. utilities destroy the awp, flash and smoke.
The awp is OP but it's a key game mechanic of the game. It's like a map feature or dangerous part of the map. It makes the enemies economy even more important.
It's still annoying when its 90% of my deaths
Kraber G100 from Titanfall 2 is basically the same but it still works with how hard it is to land and how fast everyone moves, to effectively use it you have to be absolutely devoted to it.
There's also the charge rifle which works against titans and oneshots pilots but takes ages to, you guessed it, charge.
They're honestly really fun and extremely challenging to use together but can be really powerful in 1v1s despite being a death sentence against teams.
“Mom I want to watch Ahoy”
“We got Ahoy at home”
The quake Railgun is a pretty cool solution I think, due to how fast you can move through the arena, the you have to have a really good aim to even consider using the weapon
i loved that thing in Q3. it was definitely tricky to use, but so satisfying when you figured it out. some toons were easier to frag than others just because of their size and movement patterns.
there was this old NES game called "Hostage: Rescue Mission" and it had a sniper phase where you had to shoot dudes in a window before sending in the SWAT FPS phase. while aiming at the 'whack-a-mole' windows, your crosshair would shake and jiggle, simulating your breathing/bloodflow/natural limb fatigue. it wasn't like that in the FPS phase, so they understood real world mechanics. they should bring that back.
You pretty much have to learn how to use all the weapons though or you can't keep moving
I came to say the same thing.
You cannot "charge" a Sniper, not unless it was an Magnetic-Shot (or some sort of Energy/Plasma). In which case, Q3A came to mind with the Railgun. It was both over-powered AND balanced, this is because it required a lot of skill, since characters can run fast, jump everywhere, and teleport.
The other thing that came to mind was the Ballistic Shot in Doom 2016. But that's mainly a single-player game.
When it comes to more "real life" games, that is when the Sniper becomes difficult to balance. You can't have people flying about. You can't charge-up a shot, I mean you can, but only by having all the bolt-action use a Huge Bullet with really long reloading and aiming times. So not really an option, or a fun one. And it makes no logical sense that the damage in close-range should be lower than one at long-range. Not to mention many balancing properties make the game less fun (really long reloading, really heavy walking, really really long aim down time). So it's a mess to sort out.
So what can you do?
There's some options, such as:
- Aiming. Make the guns light to carry and run with, but cumbersome. Their ultra-long size means that moving the aim is very slow. At long ranges, this doesn't matter since you only need small aiming adjustments. But in close ranges you need to move the barrel left or right relatively fast. If this is slow, it makes it very hard to win against shotguns and smgs, and it makes midranges against ARs more balanced.
- Recoil. Hip-firing will be very random and almost never hits your target. Medium range is also not very good, and it forces people to "mount" the weapon on the floor, against a box, or wallface to fire more accurately. Making it basically useless at close-range kind of like how a Shotgun is useless at the long-range.
- Scoping. You must always have a scope, which blocks your peripheral view when used (tunnel vision). And you cannot quick-scope, because the eye-sight is blurry, and your aim when fired before the animation is complete, will stray off-course a lot and randomly making you lose your shot. Kind of like hip-firing but not as bad, but bad enough to make the weapon not very viable in that play style.
- Supplementary Damage. Make it so that no gun can 1-shot the opponent, but physical damage comes with supplementary damages with certain weapons and ranges. Such as burning or bleeding effect. This means you can give Bolt-Action Snipers the ability to do 95 damage in all the ranges, but midrange gets partial effect (so sometimes 1 or 2 shot to kill), and long-ranges get full-effect (always 1 shot). But this isn't that realistic either, because it's a blanket-solution, since in the real-world these effects soldiers depending how they got shot, where they got shot, and the unique individual. Things that make the game too complex (simplicity needs balance).
- Physical Damage. Make close quarter shots do less physical damage. The idea is that bullets "go through" the targets instead of getting embedded which does not actually sound unrealistic. People have been conditioned to this through movies already. This means you need to multiple shot them (body) and due to the slow reloading, it means you lose against close-quarter weapons. It's probably a good idea to make this 3-shots in close range, 2-shots in midrange, and 1-shot in long-range. Except headshot which are always 1-shot.
- Viewing. Make it so that basically using a scope comes with problems in close range. That is if someone starts shooting in your general direction, dust and particles lift up and blur your vision but only in the close ranges. You can still see through it and make out the long ranges. This can apply to flashbangs as well, so that if an enemy used that on you, you would recover quicker than everyone else but only with the scope in the longrange, at the hipfire and midranges you would be very blind perhaps longer than everyone else. It is justifiable but not very logical or realistic.
....and lastly you can run a combination of all of these!
(to be honest, I'm not a fan of the idea of a charge-shot or supplementary damage, as they make the game less realistic. Not a fan of Viewing differences either as it makes the game more complex. But perhaps a combination of the other options above, yes, they can keep the game simple, fun, and balanced. That's something missing in Call of Duty and its rivals.)
Another thing that I think is a decent solution is characters having moderate speed and bullet velocity so you have to lead up shots and obviously players dont always walk in a straight line
Its easiest to hit opponents that just bounced off a pad since the movement is predictable but all other movement is pretty hard to hit.
Your editing style has always been high quality, so it’s great seeing you branch out from valorant.
Just have to think about my narration, i feel like its too energized for a documentary style channel
@@OfficialArch there's no such thing as too energized :(
@@OfficialArch No shame in being unique
@@FaizPhobia there definitely is, but i get what you mean
@@OfficialArch it sounds better than most documentaries (:
I like your “reverse falloff” solution, i think more games should attempt unintuitive solutions to balancing instead of the most intuitive, because sometimes it can give really nice solutions like that, would be very interesting to see that in game.
One thing I always thought changed how I think of sniping in games as a whole is the Sniper Elite series. Breath holding mechanics to steady shake or focus your scope isn’t new, but sprinting around raised your heart rate and when you topped out it was almost impossible to pull off a critical shot. Most importantly the ammunition you outfitted your kit with was key for success. Armor piercing is obvious, Soft-points for huge damage on unarmored enemies, Subsonic rounds for quieter shots, Match Grade for long distance shots. I always thought games needed to mess around with that sort of stuff more especially if it’s a game where you have to economy your kits.
I think an important thing to take into consideration is the map. Maps heavily influence the weapon choice of a player, which in itself could be a pretty good way of balancing a sniper
call of duty exists
see: splatoon
maybe get good and stop crying when u get merked
@dustydeemer8347 Using texting shortcuts in comments, and the comment is actually true to some degree.
@@AWESOMEPRO-xu4it what about texting shortcuts?
the worst about snipers is that while the other team's snipers kill you the instant you spawn, your own team's snipers cower under a bush suckling on their weapon's barrel.
Thats probably just you being bad at avoiding snipers
@@heyyanewbie *just don't get shot, bro*
riveting suggestion, you should be a general or something
Have you tried getting better teammates?
Woah bro. Easy on the homophobia. Not cool especially in 2023.
@@samatics4 Huh? Who's being homophobic?
I think dealing less damage in close quarters is the best solution, you can do this with a charge as mentioned in the video or just a damage drop off the closer the target is. So you would do 50 or 75 damage up close and if you want to, headshots can still be one shot kill at close range.
glaz buff in r6 was the best solution. allow snipers to see through smoke, making them a situational tool
One thing that is commonly overlooked is the focus/depth of field. At long range (as intended) the scope would be clear. But if running around in close quarters, everything would appear blurry (as they do in real life). Scoops are sighted in for specific ranges and if outside of that range it objects would appear blurry. They could tune it to be difficult to to differentiate targets from the environments. Making it harder for snipers to run around close quarters.
This sounds like a great solution. But it introduces a ton of calculations for the GPU to handle every frame, without the option to disable it (as doing so would defeat the purpose). Not only is it somewhat computationally expensive to blur an image, but it would have to get the distance of every pixel (or every mesh, for performance sake) from the viewport in 3D space and factor it into the blur calculation.
@@RAndrewNeal I think with things like deffered rendering and for medium to high end systems, that would probably be fairly ok tho (emphasis on think : p)
@@RAndrewNeal Seems like there would be a way to cheat that. Instead of calculating every pixel just figure out which pixels aren't blurred and blur everything else. We don't care about the objects too close or too far away, only the ones in the sweet spot. And since distance calculations already have to be done for meshes anyway, just lock it to already present mesh value. Just pick a distance mesh layer to set as the default range for a sniper rifle and blur everything that isn't on that layer.
Um thats ALSO ignoring the fact that whwn your sighted in for that range its going to affect where your bullet goes. Say youre sighted in for 100 meters and someone is standing 10 in front of you. You aim at his upper chest and shoot, bullet flies over his head because its sighted for 100 meters away, not 10. Only game ive ever seen do this is bf4 (proving most computer nerds know nothing about how guns work xd)
@@halycon404 I guess if you want to do it in stages instead of a more life-like gradient, that would ease the load. And I didn't realize that the distance to the viewport already needed to be gotten, so that helps. I'd still worry that requiring a blur effect to be enabled might make the sniper unplayable for people on a low-spec system, though.
I also think to balance snipers there needs to be a consideration of map design, game mode and mobility. In a game where you can only strafe, maybe crouch, and maybe jump, and moving punishes you by ruining your accuracy, it can be very hard to contest a sniper rifle. In contrast in team fortress 2 where spies can go invisible, soldiers and demos can fly through the air, scouts can double jump and run quick, and all damage, even chip damage gives meaningful aimpunch when scoped, it makes it much harder for a sniper. Even then people still find him overpowered, or at least non-interactive which is a different discussion altogether. But even with that mobility, there are some maps and game modes in tf2 that make the sniper's strengths shine, and some where he becomes much weaker due to the back and forth nature of constantly repositioning and maps being more closed off.
Great video though, as always. I think games need to stop chasing some weird concept of realism with the weapons, and just change snipers to be fun, interactive, and have counterplay and pop off potenial just like any other weapon would. Who cares if it's not realistic if it's fun! The reverse falloff damage charge mechanic you mentioned is a good example of this. in general, reverse falloff damage makes sense and has been suggested many times in a few communities for a gun type that is meant to serve the inverse function of a shotgun.
I definitely agree with your first paragraph. The second... I would suggest that you consider that many of us consider realism the fun itself. The reason people find one hit body snipes "fun" is because it's effective and they know that a .300, .308, .412, or .50 cal round ripping through someone in spitting distance really is absolute destruction... pulling it off with multiple consecutive kills feels extremely rewarding because you know YOU DID THAT.
We make some concessions in games, take things for granted like regenerating health. Sure you killed that guy with your sniper before he killed you... but only once you play Escape From Tarkov do you realize that you are still going to die as your character is coughing up blood and close to blacking out while you frantically search for a bandage to hold your AR shredded intestines together. Winning a fight due to tactics and not inherent mutant/god abilities to survive violence upon your body is it's own, different, kind of fun.
Arguably, we could be having the same discussion about grenades in video games. Realistically, a handheld deformed ball will kill anyone within 10 feet (or more) without even needing to expose oneself to use it. They are also so high in availability we think of them more like ammo than a weapon. I haven't seen a lot of crazy grenade montages since Halo's sticky grenades though... and few people complain about them either.
I say we make a game with no hitscan at all.
ever got one-shot in the air in tf2?
@@murdurmuffin7872 Yeah it wasn't my most thought out paragraph. I think realism in games like tarkov is a great thing because as you explained, the realism IS the appeal. But in a game like Valorant- there is NO REASON for any of the guns to have realism. I also believe that many games go for realism as part of the appeal assuming people care- but I don't think the majority of gamers are itching to have a perfectly modeled real life gun. Those folks exist, but I am not convinced they are a majority worth catering to across every genre of shooter.
If the purpose of the game is competitive, esport type gameplay/balance, I think realism NEEDS to be sacrificed. I don't think that is important for all games though and it is perfectly fine to be realistic as part of the appeal. And if you want realism AND competitive stuff just get rid hitscan snipers! People are too good at games now.
@@purp40 Later call of duty games aren't hitscan, just very fast projectiles. Also there isn't really such a thing as both, unless you go with a method that sends hitscan traces in intervals moving forward at a certain speed from their firing position, that's the only real "both" method that I know of (Don't know of anything that really uses that though) Also, unless I'm misunderstanding, your mentioned both method doesn't really make much sense, that hitscan check sounds useless and would just be a projectile regardless, unless you just missed some info to explain that there.
As the video went on, I started to think about inverted damage falloff (the Crusader's Crossbow in TF2 has this, where it does/heals more damage the farther the bolt travels), but the thought of combining that with the ADS charging mechanic was brilliant! If I ever do end up making an FPS, I'll be sure to remember that!
Snipers are a high-risk high reward gun, so long you can keep up with hitting your targets, you could be a monster on the battlefield. The flaws about snipers are they prefer damage and range over everything else, which makes using the sniper feel slow and clanky. Otherwise, it has the same ability of strength as a normal weapon would have, therefore creating a better weapon, at the cost of speed.
Crazy how magazine size and reload speed was not mentioned for the main balancing stats of a gun.
fr
Fire rate is pretty close to reload speed, but not the same. An ammunition amount is also an important factor
Well, the issue being considered here is how broken the Sniper's 1-shot-kill mechanic is. And while, yes, both of those are valid and important stats for your average gun, for a sniper specifically it doesn't really affect the issue at all - if you can kill your enemy with a single bullet, for that encounter what you do with the rest of your magazine is completely redundant
@@rohanshirodkar8353 I mean thats one of the issues but isn't whats being discussed how snipers are overpowered in general? The video talks about changing firerate and mobility which might affect the "fun factor" is any lower which isn't relate to the 1 shot kill problem. Increasing the reload time or reducing the magazine size could be useful for balancing without making the gun unfun to play with. As other people have said, people are assuming that we have 100% accuracy even in close quarters. You might only need one bullet to finish an encounter, but if you're right in someones face, reducing the number of bullets you have will also reduce the number of mistakes you can make.
Yeah and ingame price of the gun as well!
A small thing to note about the sniper in team fortress 2 is that all of his guns have a laser dot that projects on any wall he is looking at while scoped. This helps to balance out the sniper by 1) alerting the sniper's opponents of a sniper's sightline whenever they see the dot on the wall and 2) for more experienced snipers, who knows to place the dot on a different wall in order to not alert the enemy team of his sightline, it forces him to spend just a second more repositioning his crosshair in order to land his shot.
I agree, but as a sniper main, I think they should make it similar to mvm's bot sniper, it should be a transparent laser that decreases its opacity as the sniper charges his shot, that should at least give most players a chance without having to resort to nerfing his damage/range. Also I think we can all agree that bodyshots need to be nerfed, they take significantly less skill to pull off as headshots yet can still give you 150 dmg.
It is always about balance which means there will not be much difference between the weapons which becomes boring. Snipers should be effective and it anyone can use it so there is no point in nerfing it. If I'm using a sub machine gun, I do not want it to operate like a handgun. Or hand-to-hand combat being the same as using a knife. Snipers are not exactly invincible as you can throw bombs at them. Run and gunning is the best way to die. If it is a game with no respawns then you get in one or two hits and die.
That doesn't work at all though, most classes can be 1-shot instantly with 0 charge. Those that can't have slow projectiles or are Heavy which is dead anyways. The sniper doesn't have to aim and is rewarded for not aiming by being aware of potential spies and having a wider field of view.
The dot is small and can blend in on some walls. You won't always see it to know there's a sniper
Also, the demo class helps fix a lot of the short range sniper issues because of how much the grenades can bounce I would always bounce the grenades off the door frame, and since snipers had such low health, it would normally take care of them before I would even enter a line of sight
I can't remember which game did this, but my favorite "fix" for snipers is Slow ADS, High Zoom, and Terrible accuracy when non-scoped. It essentially makes it to where it is only usable at medium and long range, complimenting shotguns that are only usable at close range. When I play Judge on Val, I play with the expectation of using the Sheriff if I have to move points or I have to outright pick up another gun if able.
Bf 1 had a pretty good solution: You could only oneshot enemies at a certain range - if you are too far away you need 2 hits (to prevent getting killed at the spawnpoint by snipers hundreds of meters away) - if you are too close you need 2 hits (to discourage snipers from going close combat)
5:12 I'm in the TF2 mapping community and the solution is map design, simply break sightlines and provide a safe opportunity to peak such as through a fence so you can check if there is a sniper before going into danger. You can also provide alternate routes such that no single sniper can cover every route requiring them to move around as the enemy will figure out that they shouldn't risk one route and should go the other.
Snipers get a huge amount of focus in map making and as such maps in development have most of the issues solved surrounding snipers while also not making them unfun to play
This only applies to TF2. In other games like CoD snipers run and gun as if they were shotguns and still have the range advantage. It's funny that even the most balanced sniper type in the video is considered OP by the community. But I think this video is proof of how well designed TF2 and why it has such a persistent community.
Or there’s the real life solution, which is that everyone dies to the mortars, sniper included.
@@josepetersen7112 Bad idea
@@neoumbrela4935 Yeah in Call Of Duty i have no idea how we could fix that while still being fun to use the snipers
@@alface935 Oh, I didn’t mean that realistic fire support was a good idea for games, just commenting on how in real life 90% of combat is indirect fire.
I like the idea of forcing scopes on snipers, but then blurring the scope immediately after sprinting or jumping, making quickly aiming after moving, much more difficult
Fries
@@elihovorka1828 Burgers
@@Iwanttogokms soda
u mean csgo
Baking soda
As a charger main in splatoon, I always found it hilarious how much chargers have the deck stacked against them compared to snipers in other games. Chargers have shorter range than any other sniper in any other game, each shot takes time to charge up first if you want to kill in one hit, while charging you have a laser sight showing where you're aiming, _and_ you yourself glow like a star to make you easier to spot. And yet with all these handicaps, players still hate chargers cause no amount of handicaps will stop a player cracked at gryo aiming from hitting all their shots anyway
Idea.
The solution I thought of to balance snipers is to
A. Make them super inaccurate when hipfiring
and B. When ADS'd, add a 3s hold time, where you have to hold the trigger the whole time. After the 3 seconds, the bullet fires, one-shotting head or body. HOWEVER during the 3 seconds you move and turn much slower. This way it'll be way harder to win close range engagements, and easier to escape a sniper once you spot them.
I think the most important part to balancing a sniper is map design. Always have multiple ways to go so either everyone takes a sniper and when one shot misses you basically lose, or theres an open spot somewhere to be exploited. And thats just one of many things you can do
There isn't a map in TF2 that would be good for fighting sniper, because they one-shot quickscope your head anyways at any range with any class. As scout you need 2 shots with primary or 1 shot with primary and like half a magazine of your secondary, where all he needs is 1 hit. There were too many times I closed the distance perfectly with full HP and got instakilled meter in front of the sniper... so that's not a valid point.
The only way to balance a sniper I've seen is to reduce the damage it deals the closer your target is to you, then map design plays a huge role in how you play and where you play making you more predictable and interactable for the enemy to deal with. That will still generate one-sided firefights where sniper always wins long range and never wins short range, but that's simply unavoidable as the whole nature of one-shoting weapon will be massive ups and downs. I think for TF2 it'd be more fun if the sniper rifle was replaced with something like the WW2 bolt actions without scope, requiring secondary to finish enemy off at close range due to that reversed falloff while making it still usable for midrange "sniping", also with that remove the headshot modifier entirely or only slightly increase the damage, where it deals 150 instead of 100 and increases charging speed on headshot meaning it'd still pose threat to high HP classes, but it'd have to be deserved through waiting for full charge (wouldn't have to be charged by time spent or slow you down. It could just increase ammo consumption so it'd take 3 ammo from a 5 ammo magazine pool for example)
COD BLOPS 2 was the worst about this. Every map was a tiny 3 lane hallway simulator with multiple chokepoints. Add in infinite tactical insertions and it became almost impossible to bump snipers from power positions. Best you could do was spawn, dump your emps and C4 in their direction, hope they aren't running flak/trophy(hint:they are), and either try to wall bang (and be shot in the back) or just patrol parts of the map you think have fewer snipers.
Or, just add significant hit flinch that makes ur cross hair point to the f’n sky
@@A1cr_yt I think muscle memory would easily deal with penalty of that sort, just watch what recoil does in CS:GO it's not a downside, just an extra skill to master to unlock weapon's full potential. Not to mention it wouldn't address the issue with bots or regular cheaters which, despite my hatred for all the edgy sniper mains, deserve the nerf more.
I really like most of Call of Duty's MW2 maps (reincarnated with new weapons that probably don't work)
If I missed like 2 or more shots I had to hunker and prepare for the worst, even Wasteland or Derail which are sniper maps except the middle area/one of the 2 major buildings respectively
I really liked what Titanfall 2 did with the Kraber. It's a one shot sniper, but it has 4 shots, a REALLY slow rate of fire, a long ADS time, and a REALLLLY long reload time. Additionally, while many guns in Titanfall 2 are hitscan, the Kraber has a physical projectile so shots have to be lead. In a game where everyone is flying around at the speed of sound, it requires a great deal of skill to wield the Kraber effectively
I used to play titanfall 2 and I loved the Kraber
The headshots made me feel like a god
As a kraber main, I can confirm that cross map shots on a moving pilot is a nightmare.
Every time I play Titanfall 2 I main almost exclusively the Kraber. It's just so damn fun to use and so rewarding.
Best weapon in any game. I used to be krsber main when I played. I love that rifle.
you know it's funny you mention Titanfall 2. I feel like something about the map design and movement encourages closer range combat so much that my frankly unskilled automatic/shotgun reliant self ended up with my best KD using snipers in Titanfall 2. no still nowhere near 1.0, but an interesting alternative take to the balance question. making movement so fast that the question of range becomes irreverent. And yes, I use a Northstar xD
I think Splatoon actually handles snipers really well. Having you charge the shots and giving it a laser makes chargers a very balanced class.
I have rather, a radical idea.
Remove the reticle on "Hip fire" and add sway to the weapon even when idle. And increase the ADS time so its ALMOST unusable in CQB.
I was personally always a fan of "inverted damage fall-off" as a solution. It just makes sense from a gameplay perspective, as it forces snipers to y'know.. snipe, instead of use it as a glorified slug shotgun.
Battlefield 1 has a mechanic like this. Every slow firing sniper has a “sweet spot” (like 50-70m) where they 1 tap to the body. Longer range snipers have larger sweet spots to compensate for the difficulty of firing at range
Yeah right, since realism doesnt really apply here anyways since shotguns in rl also have much bigger ranges.
I was thinking that through the entire video If the sniper did less damage the closer the enemy was it would encourage people to snipe
yeah, its a videogame. this solution favours games not going for extreme realism, which most if not all popular fps dont prioritize. its more in the vein of sim games
The main issue is if someone gets close your secondary will most the time lose the duel and your sniper definitely will
Quick note, Quake 2 does have the railgun which is a sniper (which doesn't even have ads). Quake 2 was released in 1997, before Rainbow Six. Arena shooters in general already balance snipers through faster movement options (which kind of transferred to Titanfall when they also had fast movement).
Even then, the rail has been considered to have balance issues by many. I like Reflex's answer: the stake gun. Turns the rail into a projectile weapon, but in return you can use it to make stanfable surfaces on walls
Half Life also have sniper (crossbow actually but it functions as a sniper) and it naturally released before CS did.
That just means the amount of skill you need to have to kill people with it goes up. Among the best of the best the railgun is still just as broken as it is among the best in other games.
@@matthewgagnon9426 Quake 2 didn't even try to balance all of its weapons though. There were 4 distinct tiers of weapons, and part of the game was a race to get top tear weapons. (1.blaster, shotgun, machine gun. 2. chaingun, hyper blaster. 3. Super shotgun, grenade launcher. 4. rocket launcher, rail gun and BFG) The rocket launcher helped balance the shotgun/sniper divide by giving skilled players the ability to shoot around corners and behind cover, as well as get multi kills. Camping with the rail gun for too long usually meant getting second or third place. However, yes, 1 vs 1. almost always ended up as a rail gun duel where people would only use the rocket launcher for rocket jumping.🤣
16:55 - MINIMUM DISTANCE
"Range" does not just mean upper distance boundary, it can also mean minimum distance to get the 1shot.
That would discourage "getting too cocky" very easily.
Multiple fixes for snipers: high zoom, making you not be able to see the opponent clearly at close, not the best at mid, but useful at long. Another one: no crossair, forcing to ADS, but the ADS is super close so it's impossible to hit the enemy properly. Both would make it annoying in close range.
I liked the Battlefield 1 solution. One shotting to the body only on certain ranges, the "sweetspot" system enabled skilled snipers to choose their engagements based on the range.
one of the more unintuitive game ever where you can headshoot a aerial pilot with sniper but you need 2 explosive for destroy the aerial vehicule as the tank
@omnianti0 It's not exactly complex. The pilot is more vulnerable than vehicles, but harder to hit.
@@smokescreen100 if you considere the helicopter integrity its very vulnerable to any damage
especially the litlebird what their is barely nothing out of structural and critical mecanic to hit
if you shoot it a dozen of time with cal.50 it not a real threat ND EVEN A SINGLE RPG7 SCORE IS NOT ENOUGHT
@@omnianti0Battlefield 1 doesn't have helicopters.
i dont experimented rifles versus planes but i bet ita the same resistance @@Creepernom
I actually love how titanfall handles one shot weapons like the kraber by making its source of damage a projectile, putting you in a position to take more time or even reduce your movement in order to make a shot. Plus in a game with such high time to kill and the noise and tracer of the kraber announcing your position, it makes having to cycle the bolt surprisingly tense when any pilot coild slide hop around the corner and delete you.
doesn't nerf the close range engagements though, because the projectile hits basically straight away
Yeah, upping the game speed works kinda well with slow weapons and the faster players move, the harder it also is to actually line up a shot and hit, a thing which has been neglected in this video throughout; It's assumed the sniper player always hits, which is not a given at all anymore at certain game speeds (including TF 2 in which you can also try stuff like double-jumping in order to dodge shots).
I think the reason this works in Titanfall is because everyone moves super fast so it’s hard to hit anything in CQC. In Apex, they removed the one-shot capability, made it take forever to cycle the bolt, and gave it 12 rounds per Kraber, and it’s still OP because everyone moves a lot slower and the map’s bigger.
Titan-Fall did a lot right!!!
@@chasetoyama8184 Also, the time to scope on the Kraber is suprisingly slow compared to anything else in the game. It's still a 240 headshot damage, but yes, no one shot on the body.
That said, as mentioned, TtK is very high, so the issue that other games have where for example an assault rifle has a one shot headshot. Even headshots with something like a flatline (most powerful assault rifle) needs FIVE shots, and the second most powerful sniper (Sentinel) still needs two at least. That's why the kraber works. It's way more powerful than anything else whilst still not being a one-shot-body-kill.
I remember with Call of Duty 2 you needed to hold your breath to be accurate and this mechanic is pretty realistic.
I think battlefield and call of duty vs Valorants views on sniper scopes is a great example on how maps can also really dictate their effectiveness
Quake 1 did not have a snipers as mentioned shortly after 10:22. However, all subsequent Quake releases had the "railgun" which, unlike the name would suggest, is a sniper riffle that shoots laser beams. One balancing factor in play is how the laser beam accurately reveals the exact position of the shooter. This provides the sniper motivation to relocate between shots rather than killing an entire enemy team from a single well protected position.
Quake 1 had a lightning gun.
That was a pretty fucking snipey weapon
So it's the machana
@@DizzySpark Except it was so short range.
One thing to mention though is that the RG was not that powerful, there are not headshots and it was meant to be used on the move. You can't really stay stationary in quake, the camper will be flushed out by grenades, rockets and plasma slugs. IMO its more of a "coup de grace" gun.
@@ConsciousExpression AND it is a tracking weapon instead of a flick-shot weapon. It deals meaningful damage over time and not in an instant.
Also, as others mention, even the RG didn't do crazy damage against a well-kitted player.
Compare this to lag-compensated, insta-kill-at-any-HP-or-armor-level hitscan weapons we got in modern shooters.
The elephant in the room is movement in general.
Quake on top of all the above downsides had players with very fast and unpredictable movement in maps often with maps that weren't super large usually, indirect nerfs to RG effectiveness.
Shounic ran a test on his server, where all snipers had a beam coming from their sniper rifle that the enemy team could see, people still died but it gave the enemy team a chance to react, and it made the deaths less from chokepoints and more spread through the map
like Splatoon
the thing is though, you could hide your aim by pointing it elsewhere (ie at the wall in front of you) and then just do flick shots.
That requires skill and makes it more difficult to hit your shots than waiting for someone to walk into your sightlines@@Kensuke0987
@@Kensuke0987 you could, but it's much more difficult to do that and leaves you open due to looking at a wall
@@lunasagaming5801 when you're aiming down the sight or through the scope at something far away, you're already leaving yourself open from being attacked from the flanks - you literally have tunnel vision.
Splatoon is in 3rd person, so you can actually look past the wall even if you're aiming at it, but I think you can kinda do something similar in first person shooters by standing some distance away from the wall, or aiming at an obstacle between you and your target to hide your beam (or just your aim).
In competitive Splatoon, it's pretty much meta, so everybody practices it and can do it consistently without compromising awareness/vision.
yeah in games where its mostly close range that would actually be pretty sick but at the same time if they add that... They can just directly jump the realism part lol
If snipers are used for long range, one thing that would balance it is only long ranged scopes. If you’re worried about snipers taking the short ranged and medium ranged fights, only allow long ranged scopes
Elephant in the room: Quickscoping is itself a goofy mechanic. Bringing the scope up should force a semi-random placement (within a cone) of the crosshair. Now you have to find your target again, through the magnification. Short-range effectiveness nerfed to where it should be.
One solution I haven’t seen is reverse damage fall off. The closer you are, the less damage you do, forcing you to both spend more time lining up your shots and more cautious of closer ranges
It’s not a sniper, but the medic in team fortress two has a crossbow with this exact mechanic. It’s also a projectile weapon, but it still applies in concept lol. Weirdly enough, it does healing based on the same mechanic.
But then I'll just be forced to camp at long range instead of coming closer to go for more high risk encounters, literally that's what people have been complaining about, those longer ranged camping tactics, so I don't see how this will stop the complainers from whining
@@therobertguy2436 It also has an 100% crit rate, just like his ubersaw
That's actually one of my ideas for how devs could balance snipers too, and I actually have it from a RTS game
In Company of Heroes 2, LMGs do more dps at long range, due to the model with the LMG firing more often at that range
That means that 1) the squad keeps most of its long range dps even as soldiers die
and 2) other squads can still fight them at mid - short range as the LMG is less powerful there,
even if the squad overall does more damage because of their other guns
Of course you'd have to change the weapon cooldown to damage for an FPS,
but still, make it so they deal the most damage at a specific range, like BF1 did too.
Or you just pull a Hell let Loose and make it so almost everyone one-shots everyone,
as all boltaction and semi auto rifles in that game oneshot, but only the snipers have scopes.
It's an interesting idea except it doesn't make sense. The right solution is to require very specifically headshots for a kill at any range, and a long reload time. It's realistic, and if they shoot the body at close range they're screwed. And more vertical movement options for players. Or, as he says in the video, just make them scope for longer for full power. Cool idea! Makes sense.
Mad respect that this is your debut video. Production Quality is gorgeous, your Voiceover is soothing and the script you wrote is easy to follow & understand. Even your idea on how to balance a bolt action sniper on close range is well thought through. Keep up the good work and I'm sure you'll make it!
Appreciate it!! The next one will be even better :)
true iv'e been watching this channel maybe half a year? and i really like his content
And his audio/sound is spot on! Half the time when I watch game video's, it's like people are allergic to paying attention to the audio work but this is just top notch. :)
@@anderman1231 how, there's only 1 video
@@gabrielc7861 well I mean my dude has another channel
Idea: As damage dropoff is a thing most of the time, what if it were reversed for the sniper? The closer your target the less damage you do, and the further away the more damage you do. This would encourage players to play at long range instead of close up
Nice Video! I loved the simplified color graphic explanations, I have something to add to the rushed history of snipers, in 1998 a mod called Action Quake 2 included the sniper weapon into the multiplayer competitive realm, as far as i know AQ2 is considered the precursor to CounterStrike
Crazy how he didn't even mention flinch. If your scope goes to the moon when they hit you with a normal weapon you can't kill them.
eh people can still hit nasty flicks through flinches
that is one hell of an excellent counter point
personally i consider flinch and tagging to be some of the worst balancing decisions, especially since most games incorporate them into all weapons. Your punishment for being shot is losing health, slowing you down and also making your aim fly in random directions feels downright sadistic.
That's what I was thinking the entire video!!!
It worked in Halo.
When you play games such as Enlisted, where you have too many enemies, snipers become more balanced because they are not effective against the masses, but you can still hide somewhere and shoot important enemies (on machine guns and etc.)
Well also more realistic titles like tarcov, squad, arma extra made everything dangerous all the time and made it a hassle to be in an advantage. Then there is games like foxhole with a logistics mechanic so its just difficult to be useful with. It makes it important but only to the level of its risk.
Also in Rising Storm 2 Vietnam, where the game limits the number of snipers to just 2 or 3 per team, and it it really does suck at closer ranges.
is Enlisted still worth it?
@@yhwach1 no
@@yhwach1 yes
Fortnite recently just ruined snipers by making it possible to remove the scope or change it to one with less zoom. one of the that you said made it balanced was having a big zoom and just like you probably thought EVERYONE has one this season. there op. i hate getting randomly headshot sniped. I miss the shotgun meta.
another good option is to add a sweet spot like in battlefield 1 (sweet spot is where you cant be too close or too far and the sniper wont 1 shot to body if youre not in the sweet spot)
I was gonna say
Among my own game ideas, I've been playing around with the idea of overpenetration, meaning snipers deal notably reduced damage at close range. This would definitely make for an interesting mechanic. 🤔
I love that, overpenetration is such a good term to describe how you deal less damage at lower ranges if you add that feature to a game. And it doesn't matter against the head, because... well, it's the head.
Furthermore, what if overpenetration was always lethal, but after a time delay? In a few seconds the enemy would die due to the strong DoT the overpenetration would apply; however, that sill gives them long enough to push up to the sniper that hit them and have a chance to take their revenge. Snipers would need to be careful to hit their headshots, lest they suddenly need to finish off their target with a second one.
Edit: the point would be to not leave enemies on fractions of health, which can feel bad, instead doing something that still isn't as good as a guaranteed kill but is more fun to work with.
I like that idea. Always seems like making a sniper rifle a one-shot kill in all ranges was unnecessary. Feels like making it do less damage and harder to hit in close range makes more sense as counters to the long-range destructive power of the gun.
Oh, thanks you two! Even if, like a total dummy, I commented this before realizing it's mentioned in the video. 😅
I was thinking something like that too, a mechanic where it will do less dmg within 30 meters, then the bullet speeds UP and does insta-kill dmg.
@@incinerativemario Yea, let's say you have a sci-fi related game you could make a sniper that works on plasma or something and would have some sort of heat up or speed up mechanic wich would do 1 hit on longer distances but significantly less damage in close range Combat.
I think the best way any game has dealt with the power of snipers is Battlefield 1 with their sweet spot mechanic. Basically every sniper has a sweet spot where it one-shot-body-shots, but every other range does reduced body damage. This makes it so different snipers have different advantaged for play range and it wasn't a one-shot at every range.
My favorite way to handle the issue of sniper rifles is the way most "hero shooter" games do it; the added game mechanics make it harder to actually land headshots, and snipers are pretty much *NEVER* a one-hit-kill without said headshots. On top of that, even headshots won't instantly beat tank class characters in most of these games.
Battlefield 1 I think had a very interesting mechanic for sniper rifles, that being a sweet spot range. Bolt action rifle bullets for the most part had a range, say from 80-120 yards, where a single body shot could kill. The game forced you to make your shots carefully and take into account things like bullet drop, damage drop over range, and bullet travel speed.
Of course, it also made holding certain spots on certain maps ridiculously easy - I remember an Operations game I had where I was playing Scout with the Arisaka, Infantry-pattern (no scope, only ironsights on the rifle with the shortest sweet spot). I held a point by myself for over 20 minutes since the only entrances to the area were a pair of open staircases at the exact sweet spot range. I racked up 50 kills with 1 death, and I got res'd by a passing Medic anyways.
you talking about Battlefield 1942?
Also, second mechanic that worked well in tandem (as sweet spot generally encouraged playing in mid-to-slightly-long range) was the drag coefficient, which would gradually increase bullet drop rate with distance traveled. Led to fewer people sitting hundreds of meters away from any kind of objective (hi, Op. Firestorm mountain in BF3/4), although it didn't exactly stop it fully, obviously.
Also, one curious spin on the sweet spot was adding a different scope glint to mid- and high power scopes when rifles they were attached to pointed at you within their sweet spot range. Gave you a good hint that maybe it's time to look for cover.
@@ahuels67 no the battlefield after battlefield 4 was called battlefield 1
@@ahuels67 BF1, the WW1 game.
I like Battlefield 1’s take on balancing snipers (and I guess all other guns too) and that’s having a sort of “sweet spot” where it does the most damage, but drops off at closer and further ranges
cousin, let's go bowling
Thats the best way imo
Yeah, but Snipers were still pretty broken on many maps due to wide open terrain perfect for farming fiestas.
The other way they balanced snipers was by shining, letting faraway players they were about to be fired upon
Too bad that was the worst decision cuz older games before bf1 u had to headshot where that let you one hit body in a game in ww1 where u didnt have longer range options
I wouldn't disregard the balancing aspect of "hard to obtain = stronger". It's a fair concept that works in a lot of games as long as you don't rely on this aspecte entirely.
sniper solution - spinning bullets - weak bullets close range that slowly spins faster making it do more damage - flaming dart sniper - does 50 hp close range - 75 hp medium range - 100 hp long range - shoots normal darts close range - orange fire medium range- blue or mystic color long rang - almost like a charging system.
I always found that Battlefield 1's "sweetspot" mechanic was optimal for balancing the bolt action rifles. And the fact that different rifles had different sweetspots meant that they all had a niche and there wasn't really one "best" rifle.
Not only that, the suppresssion mechanic also helps, so you can't fight enemys as good that are actively shooting at you (e.g with an assault rifle).
ranking by sniper balance in shooters:
1) battlefield 4+ series
2) phantom forces
3) everything else
Sounds good on the surface doesn't hold up in-game.
For 90% of use cases the Ross MkIII is the best rifle, because it's straight pull-bolt action and can one-shot enemies unlike any other rifle. The only thing it doesn't have is reduced drag or a super long range sweet spot, M1917 has that covered.
2 rifles make the entire rest of the weapon category redundant.
The biggest problem of BF1s sniping, was that the support class was better at it. You could suppress snipers (can no longer accurate hit you), unlimited ammo, and the defensive nature of the game made this strategy incredibly easy to replicate. Genuinely infuriating to being getting laserbeamed from across the map with no easy counter
@@afj810 snipers in phantom forces are opposite of balanced. Yes they are fun but definitely not balanced. They are just insane at close range
For the range problem you could take an idea from ROUNDS and make the bullet do more damage the farther it travels, discouraging close encounters, and encouraging people to use a sniper like a sniper.
Giving a sniper reverse falloff has its own issue however as someone may land a shot at decent range but due to it being a kid range shot falls just short of killing the target
Not to mention giving a sniper reverse falloff encourages rushing the sniper instead of playing around the snipers sightline and basically encourages playing like an idiot
@The Knight fair point, I mean if the solution was simple, this video wouldn't exist
Wasn’t this the second solution he offered? He just added charged shots on top of this
its not exactly the same.
the mechanic mentioned in this comment fromm rounds, makes bullets bigger and more powerful, the longer its traveling.
so you dont need to charge, but it doesnt do any extra damage in short range, only in mid range and even more in long range.
@@hellhound74 I dont see either point being an issue considering the first applies to shotguns as well and has never been a large problem, if it was such an issue it could always be tweaked to be a flat damage between certain ranges/range changes. as for the second point, is that not the point the snipers are meant to be weak at close range? when playing around the snipers sightline comes down to avoiding peaks entirely I dont think it's productive to fluid gameplay
Fixes to bolt action sniper:
Make aiming down sights on sniper take a few seconds
Make not aiming down sights increase randomized bullet cone to extremely large size.
I still confused why you can’t make the sniper’s damage just scale with range? Implement some sort of damage calculator into the game where you do more damage the farther away you are and minuscule damage up close. That way players will always be incentivized to stay as far away as possible and making a nice contrast with the shotgun, which does more damage the closer you are.
I like the BF1 tactic. Every sniper has a sweet spot where it will 1 shot body shot. Different snipers have different sweet spots. None 1 shot body close or super far. Makes it feel super rewarding when you learn the specific rifles.
yeah! not to mention bullet drop, travel time, scope glint and suppression for the sniper, the skill gap is so much higher for bf1 snipers and you really have to play actively and not passively with them!
@@Tom_Hillman bf1 is like the easiest battlefield to snipe on tho lol
@@ClueIess It's certainly the most enjoyable sniping experience for both the sniper and the other players.
@@Tom_Hillman It's also realistic too (+), In real life you really don't want to f near an uncovered sniper's den in ww1 because one peek would make your head explode. Some parts on why it's enjoyable too.
@@deaconfetundes7888 Not necessarily because every gun IRL can do that you will die unless your incredibly lucky to any gun if your with in there range
I always believe this solution would work for tf2: Old school Halo had a great idea where if you recieve a threshold of damage, then you get unscoped. This would allow a lot of classes, even Heavy, to fight back, and doesn't result the sniper being useless and is forced to reposition which is SUPPOSE to be his downside, where he has to avoid being targeted.
Mfw when aim flinch
@@lavetissene339 😂😂😂
just like in meet the sniper. "i think his mate saw me. yes, yes he did."
I like what FishStickOnAStick proposed better, which is giving Sniper more downtime by giving the sniper rifle less ammo and a hard reload. So, the Sniper is just unable to watch his sightline forever, and is more vulnerable when scrambling for ammo packs, more opportunities for the flankers.
@@lavetissene339 Aim flinch doesn't always work, since people can easily headshot if it's not enough, and won't be able to play if it's too much.
Based on the many different contexts of fights, aim flinch can be terrible for either party, and game devs can't account for every situation (especially since sniper already flinches).
Aim flinch also requires you to risk yourself by putting yourself in sights of a sniper whilst at his preferred range, because if you weren't making him flinch, you'd have just killed him.
Whereas forced unscoping means you can drastically mitigate a sniper's damage, whilst also not outright killing him, which seems like a really good compromise and actually gives him proper counter-play outside of "be a better sniper".
Might even be a reason to start using The Classic, lol.
The problem with balancing snipers is that without features like weapon sway or the speed at which the gun can be aimed to balance it, you're just comparing a gun with a time to kill that's instant to guns that require you to spend more than a second to get that kill. And when reaction time and the speed of kill acquisition is so important, it makes snipers usually extremely powerful when you play the game like its a point and click sim. Sometimes the weapon's reload matters as well, a bolt-action isn't going to clear a room as fast as an assault rifle is because the assault rifle can kill multiple targets with the same magazine.
Another thing to consider is the shotgun's advantage in some games, the advantage being that you don't even have to have pinpoint accuracy because the weapon's hit cone is wide enough that you can basically outright miss where a sniper always has to actually have his aim point directly on you, especially at close ranges. Some games do get it right, but you have to basically make snipers awkward as shit to use out of scope, a good example is hipfire in Battlefield 1. The automatico is fantastic at hipfire, you can basically just wear a gas mask and you're good to go all day in the close quarters, that comes with the advantage that you need time to raise the gun to aim down sights, and you do need to, because your accuracy is fucking shit if you don't.
Games which allow snipers to have hitscan accuracy without taking into account whether they're aiming down sights are kind of a shit game honestly.
And there's CODM, where every player uses a sniper like a shotgun, slides like a madman and asks for a duel if they get angry with you (the duel only allows snipers).
The snipers still have a 6x scope.
In Sniper Elite, there is a stamina mechanic. It basically means the more you move around, the less amount of time you will have to steady your rifle. This also makes your aim very shaky. I think this is a good idea to limit the sniper's mobility while keeping the rifle fun to use.
I think this is probably the best way to balance it, but some players prefer a more fast paced play style.
@@Deadvalley200well, if you prefer a fast paced playstyle, just dont play sniper in that case
@@Deadvalley200 that’s the opposite point of a sniper. Just don’t play sniper then but if you do, don’t expect if to work well because that’s not what snipers are intended for. Simple as that if you want to be a good sniper you won’t be fast, if you want fast don’t be a sniper at least that’s what it’s like in real life and realistic and accurate games. I’ve been playing snipers in games since Xbox 360, and in real
Life I do all kinds of competitive shooting. And currently in the process of joining the military. But what do I know just a couple thousands maybe tens of thousands of rounds throughout my life. My point is, IRL and accurate portrayal of real life would be “Fast gameplay doesn’t = sniper, sniper = slow but highly accurate and quickly paced if put in the hands of a competent shooter. If you want to play fast and great. Best option anything but sniper, if you want highly accurate, hard to Learn and hard to master, but a bit slower, go sniper and I’m basing this on more realistic games like arma physics, etc. not that COD or battlefield reality wanna be physics. But If you wanna be a fast gameplay high kills God Tier sniper if you achieve that, you’ll know it’s not a great game just from that being a possibility. But hey live and let live I guess
@@ste4lth147 well said
I think the only thing that wasn't in this video was the "hold breath" stamina/stabilization mechanic to steady your rifle in some Call of Duty titles. It worked kind of well because you couldn't sprint around and then stop and steady your shot due to being fatigued. It didn't work as well if you just ran a high input sensitivity because you can fight the scope sway.
He also left out Sniper-Flinch. You get hit first -> You will miss
My cod sniper builds: all in speed of movement
In cod there are interesting feature, idk how it called on pro language but i called it prescope or halfscope. In cod you have time when you press RMB and spread start decreasing to get you in scope, you can release mouse button to break sequence. So you can prescope shoot and with skill and luck you kill opponent on various distances.
@@_DAN11L_ I know exactly what you mean, and tbh that is not at all broken, if you have the skill to pre-aim at the right direction and hit 1 shots it should be rewarding
i'm not an fps player at all, so i've never heard of this mechanic. that seems like a really good solution all things considered. if your game has a stamina meter of any kind, just tie it to the player's ability to ADS with a sniper. i could see it going a couple of ways. either have ADSing (AingDS? lol) with a sniper outright consume stamina; or else pause or slow stamina recovery when you ADS with a sniper and have the current stamina level influence things like view-bobbing, bullet spread, damage, etc.
That and time to hit after shot that can be an exclusive to sniper feature like in some of the battlefields: The bullet will take some time before reaching its destination, which allows the adversary the opportunity to avoid the shot at long range and to answer with his own defense at mid range
I have an idea. Zero the sniper scope for a far distance so you have to adjust where you're actually aiming.
With firearms, imagine the scope and the bullet as two parallel lines. When you zero a scope, you're adjusting it so that those two lines meet at a certain distance. So in game, zero the scope for a distance the sniper would be realistically zoomed for. Not for close quarter engagements. This way, players would have to intentionally aim lower in order to hit their targets
And then just not allow snipers to use close range sights. Long Range Scopes or nothing.
6:15 I mean, this is a video game... you can have a weapon have reverse drop off, dealing less damage in close range
I don't think it's all about guns, it's also about map design. You shouldn't have a map that allows snipers to dominate over the entire map, just certain routes. That way snipers can hold down certain areas and limit enemy movement, but if the enemy makes it over, the sniper is forced to move out of his element.
yep, u nerf snipers by buffing smoke.
Yeah, you want to encourage risk and reward and variety. A single wide open area with sparse cover is just a shooting ground. Being trapped like sardines in landing craft scene in Saving Private Ryan is not fun gameplay.
@@andrewstambaugh8030 it can be though. i think BFV did that pretty well with the iwo jima map. that assault force it's pretty much force to throw themselves into a meat grinder but at the same time they give you some tools to make it work.
A multiplayer game I recall with a simular concept as your "charging" idea is is Jedi Knight academy from 2003. The sniper in it was a laser rifle that would shoot like a marksman rifle when quickly fired, but if you charged the rifle by holding down the fire button it would shoot a one shot that would disintegrate people. If you held it down to maximum charge it would automatically fire too, this meant if you wanted to 1 shot people you had to heavily anticipate where and when you were going to shoot.
There was the railgun where it exploded on max charge killing the user so you couldn't just wait.
Handling, mobility, and recoil most people aren't shouldering a 50 cal and I doubt anyone is throwing a second shot even if they are without a lot of bulk or a bracing system which also would slow mobility, mounted decreases recoil by half to 2/3rds get rid of awareness by blurring and adding a scope sweet spot that you can be staggered from viewing/reliably correcting shots. It's not hard it's just effort to make feel good enough to not kill the class and to do that you need dynamic maps which means your weapon team and map team have to be on the same page last game to do that that I've seen was halo reach.
@@suddencrysis3134 The tau cannon from Half life worked the same way!
@@suddencrysis3134 🌚 KEKW
The idea that you can't hold a charge at maximum sounds good, forcing the potential sniper to have to lower their gun for a moment to reset the charge and give an enemy a chance to appear at an inopportune moment. Heck, TF2's Huntman made Sniper lose damage and accuracy if holding his bow drawn too long, requiring down time, even for a moment.
Also when balancing a sniper I think devs should also remember how fun is no-scope 360
Simple answer: Add a distance blur to your game. Sniper now doesn't do more damage, but can do it accurately at range, eliminating the advantage once they move into the view distance, making every other gun preferable.
I really like how the snipers work in Splatoon, or chargers as they're called in that game. Like TF2, they also need to charge a shot in order to one shot. Uncharged shots (tap shots) do not only less damage (3-4 shots depending on the specific charger), but they have less range and a slower travel time on top of that. Killing with tap shots is also faster than fully charging a shot though the damage does scale up the longer you charge. If you manage to rush down a charger, you have the advantage unless they just happen to have a charge ready. And speaking of charge, there's a mechanic introduced in 2 that makes playing around the charge mechanic more interesting, which is charge holding. I imagine if there's one thing I can expect anyone to know about Splatoon, it's that your guns shoot ink and you can swim in your ink. The way the charge hold mechanic works is that if you go into swim form while holding a full charge, you can keep that charge as long as you come back up after a certain amount of time (about a little over a second).
Another thing to note about chargers is that, unlike snipers in pretty much any other game, chargers have a hard limit on how far their shots go. And there's not only a lense flair system to let you know when someone's charging, but a whole ass laser that points directly to your position and cuts off where your shot ends. Like sniping in TF2, this means you need to be mindful about not altering enemies towards the fact that there's an e-liter staring them down. So generally that means taking cover and peaking just as you're about ready to take the shot. The best part about the limited range is that it allows there to be weapons in other categories that can challenge the chargers.
As for the scope vs unscoped balancing thing, Splatoon leans heavily on unscoped. However, there *are* two specific chargers that have scoped variants that actually gives you something to try to make up for what you lose playing with a scope. Scoped chargers have the tunnel vision thing as you'd expect and they also lack the ability to store a charge, making them inherently less mobile. As for what they get in return, well, they get more range. It's not a huge amount of extra range, but it makes enough of a difference that some people take that trade off.
Lastly, the different chargers can all feel different from each other. As of Splatoon 3, there are six chargers in the game and only two of them properly feel like what you'd expect from a sniper. You have the Splat Charger, which is the average hold down the charge and get your shots off charger, and the first with a scoped variant. Then there's the E-Liter, which has the longest charge time out of any charger but has the longest range in the game as well as is the other charger with a scoped variant. My favorite that I don't use anymore, the Squiffer, trades range for aggression, it has the shortest charge time out of all the chargers that can one shot and is the only charger in the entire game that doesn't get a charge speed penalty for trying to charge in the air. One of the more gimmicky chargers is the Goo Tuber, it also has a longer charge time but is the only charger in the game that can one shot with a partial charge (70%) though you still need a full charge for your max range, it can hold a charge for three seconds and store partial charges. Another aggressive charger is the bamboozler, it has an insanely fast charge time but is a two shot, also balanced with a shorter range (but still out ranging the Squiffer for some reason). And finally, the newest charger from 3, the Sniperwriter, this one's gimmick is that a full charge gives you FIVE shots instead of just one at the cost of needing two to kill and not being able to charge hold, has Splatterscope range though.
So yeah, Splatoon's design for snipers leads to interesting and unique weapons. It's just a shame that a lot of the maps lack viable flank routes, makes charger players harder to deal with than we should be, and frankly, I want more flank routes because I like sniping from unexpected angles.
Even with all of that, they're still vulnerable if something like a Brella challenges them, less so in 3 because of the shitty net code, but you can still use the Brella canopy to run up on a charger with relative ease, not to mention Brushes mobility giving them the perfect tool to duck and weave between shots and get to them, or the various specials that can shut them down.
i hope they fix brellas one day
Also thought of splatoon!
Their way of nerfing the sniper works in achieving balance.
Buuut, that way doesn't work in any realism shooter..
Tldr pls
@Alex .G Splatoon keeps snipers balanced by limiting the range they can one shot from and how quickly they can charge up a one shot while also giving a variety of snipers to choose from so the classic sniper is not the only viable option
SOLUTION FOR A SCI-FI GAME:
A laser/light sniper that has to focus the beam
Meaning the closer you are, the less damage.
You could even use the same model minus the sight for the shotgun, saying that the lenses are focused the opposite way.
I kind of like the system in Battlefield where certain guns have sweat spot ranges, where damage changes depending on range. This isn't just damage fall off where you have damage start to decline at a certain range, it also includes a minimum range for some guns where damage maxes out. This way if you're dealing with a sniper, and you know the fall off you can ping him to know his distance and when you're approaching you can stay hidden when in one shot range, and when you get close enough to be out of one shot range you can engage. Obviously damage drop off limits how far away a sniper can get as well.
I like the snipers in Battlefield the most. You have to headshot to kill with them unless you hit a sweatspot range that is different for every gun (I think). Also snipers with long range scopes leave a massive reflection that basically reveals your positiong to everyone which helps to deal with campers on giant maps.
not to mention the bullets on snipers have bullet drop off at certain ranges, forcing the sniper to adjust their aim based on how far their target is. Also in battlefield you have some good possible counter play options if you are communicating with your squad.
If someone is in a tank, chopper or jet you could try blowing up the position, or if you have someone with an RPG /SMAW you can cover fire and then they shoot.
There's also smoke grenades and flares to counter the snipers visibility, which can be used to quickly charge at them, go for a flank by going into different cover, or entering a vehicle to either flank, counter attack or disengage.
@@generalgrizzly7914 Using Battlefield 4 as an example is just unfair because it's infinitely the best multiplayer shooter ever made.
@@RockycGaming bf3 imho is equal...but yes, I still avidly play BF4, its an extremely good example of how to balance MOST weapons.
but then there also exist some really *sweaty* dude running around with 16x scope doing cqc 50-100m away while at the same time sniping and constantly hitting headshot
@@RockycGaming gawd damn it you're right
In Halo, I find the sniper quite balanced. It revolves over a few key facts:
- You get unzoomed if you're hit by any bullet.
- No oneshot in body, only headhost are oneshot
- You cannot spawn with a sniper (well that depends on the game mode, but in general no), you have to find it in the middle of the map.
I was looking for this comment
The unscope mechanic can be downright infuriating tho.
But itdoes give SMG class weapons an edge, not shotguns tho
The reticle on the screen and the fire rate of the sniper makes that almost irrelevant though
@@speven371 No
Hipfiring is super accurate though
The worst aren't the people who abuse snipers, it's when people abuse snipers and TRULY believe they're good. In cod, snipers have been so broken the last few years that the pros actually banned them, but kids in pubs think they're using a high skill gun when they run around just one shotting everyone
Technically, there is no such thing as a sniper in video games as failed, be considered to be a sharpshooter as a sniper has another person who spots people for them as a sharpshooter moves around the battlefield, picking of enemies. A sniper stays in one spot for a long period of time.
Sniper: one-shots = unfair for others
Sniper: needs more shots = unfair for the sniper
It's a logical paradox!
I wouldnt say its unfair at all. A scoped sniper weapon already has a massive ranged advantage, it doesnt need a TTK advantage too.
@@jackmcmorrow9397 bolt-action snipers require you to hit the enemy either headshot them or center mass, and you have a single shot to do so while anything has 30 rounds or so depending on the weapon you are running, while you reload your one shot, and you can't really play a sniper rifle in many games close range (because if you get pushed you are just dead par from some miracle play from your part) so in those games like CSGO you as a sniper take the slower longer ranged engages and deter people from using some of those routes without flashing/smoking.
but what about games like Battlefield or Planetside? surely since they are mainly mid to long range snipers would be overpowered? not really, in many cases the sniper rifles have a bullet drop that is abysmal to shoot with from the longer ranges and can't even 1 hit you if you don't get headshotted, while you can run,slide,jump zig zag and more making it extremely hard to hit a good player in said games and when the developers make an unbalanced weapon archetypes problem, it's the developers making that single sniper too overtuned, same can be said with many other weapons like the rifles, shotguns (remember BF3 AA-12 with Explosive rounds?) that can be extremely overpowered but you don't hear people saying "rifles are op" or something like that.
now let's take yet another game, Halo.
Sniper rifle in Halo is 2 shot to the body, one shot to the head, no bullet drop, hits instantly and can be fired from the hip (no scoping), has 4 rounds and doesnt take ages to reload with bolt-action, but is it overpowered? only in custom games intended for it to be. in competitive it's extremely well balanced, being able to being taken down by a Battle rifle or a DMR quite easily. but why is this?
1. if you are scoping from longer ranges you being hit with any kind of weapon will take you out of the scope instantly and you'll miss your shot
2. you have 4 shots that you need to be extremely precise to kill the enemy before they can either kill you or close the distance where they can just shoot you low and melee you. the game being mainly short to medium ranges making it much easier to just have a shotgun or a rocket launcher as a power weapon and be good with them.
3. even if you do kill the enemy, you have 4 shots and often 4 more or 8 more after that, and if you hit all those to the head first time sure you'll have 8-12 kills but did you win the match by then? since you had to be farther back your teammates had to go get the flag and if they didn't your sniper rifle was pretty much useless apart from making sure the enemy didn't get your flag, meanwhile shotgun or a rocket launcher can push the enemy, kill "in shotguns case maximum of 4-8 depending on the Halo game" and rocket launchers case about "2-4 depending on only if the enemies were close by or not, the rocket launcher in Halo has 2 shots before reloading" so which one is more overpowered if they both can't be gotten by any other way but the power weapon drop on the map which you have to fight over to gain control of said weapon?
same with Destiny 2, sniper rifles used to be very useless when we had "power ammo" as the only source of ammunition for said weapon type, since you could just run linear fusion rifle, shotgun,sword (which you can use to peek around corners in 3rd person even without you having ammo), rocket launchers, grenade launchers and so on, and have more impact for that one shot, or be in a more safe place like with the shorter range weapons, to even having more ammo to play with than sniper rifles, all while you can't bodyshot your opponents with sniper rifle because Bungie made the Destiny 2 sniper balance similar to Halo's.
now ask yourself what in these games makes the sniper rifle fundamentally broken? is it because you feel bad of being shot by it? or is it actually better weapon than it's counterparts?
Well... if a sniper (maybe with the charge) holds a defensive position, it _should_ be powerful.
That kinda is the idea of snipers. Support your storming squad from the back or hold a really strong defensive position, hard to take over.
My idea is, snipers should be capable of defending really good while assault rifles... well... should be strong while _assaulting_ a position. Or something like that.
And lowering the damage to non-headshot non-kill makes the sniper very reliant on comrades (or a potential side arm), as they need to take out the severely wounded enemy, while you cannot.
FPS games should generally be more team/squad based...
@@KimDare75 the problem with this mentality is, if we go by arcade shooters "not realistic and doesnt try to be" logic, everything needs to be balanced around being able to play alone which means if something isnt quite as good as something else at ending the enemy most players will never use it, take for example CSGO, revolver is hardly ever used because we have Desert eagle, far superior and easier to use version of the same weapon archetype. or the light machine guns in CSGO, hardly ever used except for trolling noobs because we have submachine guns which do the same thing "high fire rate run and gun" but with way less investment from the player (you) to get one.
but is the Desert eagle and the submachine guns overpowered? no of course not, they just perform as they should but because they do something else is bad so in Arcade games you can't have something that has a "suppressing effect" or "used to finish enemies" alone, you have to be able to end the enemy by yourself as easily as you can, for it to be good in said games.
now if we go to realistic games even milsims like Arma/Squad and so on, snipers have to be good cause that is what is realistic and thats what your job as a sniper is, but what counters snipers? another sniper or a single machine on a vehicle or even a mortar.
so in both examples you cant have the sniper be what you said. because it makes no sense.
It's not that it's unfair, it just undermines to the core fantasy of playing a sniper.
And I'm personally fine with snipers in low TTK shooters like Call of Duty or CS, but in games that consistently give some leniency for making mistakes, sniper just doesn't compute.
Three variations of sniper balancing that weren't covered, but may be worth exploring further:
1.) Battlefield 1 - All Snipers have a unique "sweet spot" range where they are 1-hit kills, outside of that sweet spot, they are 2 shots, unless to the head. This sweet spot varied between snipers but requires a large variety to pull off effectively.
2.) Black Ops 1 - On release, snipers required you to stabilize the reticle in order for the shot to be on-target. In its time, following the madness of original MW2, this was met with insane amounts of backlash which led the developers to revert the design choice shortly after release. Looking back, it prevented 'quick scoping' and forced snipers into the niche the weapon is designed to be played in.
3.) Halo 5 Binary Rifle - Initial accuracy, 'quick scoping', was much less reliable since the weapon required you to maintain that accuracy for a short period of time while the damage was being dealt. Granted, the 'con' here being this requires the gun to not be a modern weapon; but, the design works well for futuristic weaponry. Rather than immediately dealing 100 damage, the rifle takes a second to deal that damage in-full. Damage is calculated via a linear ramp based on static chest/head damage that occurs with each game tick that the reticule is on the target.
I think any mods meant to make a sniper rifle more tailored to how it is actually used, will invariably lead to it being less adequate than assault style weapons in battlefield style games, because they just are. Snipers were designed for scoping out enemy positions, and occasionally firing from the comfort of a bush thousands of meters away from your actual target. Quick scoping and other nonsense is only a thing in games thorougly removed from the reality of these weapons.
Another Option for more realistic games is to make every weapon one shot.
@@nafetz1687
That's not realistic.
Sure 1 shot will often kill someone eventually
But it's not enough to kill a person instantly unless it's a headshot or it pierces the heart
There are many stories of people needing several shots from a 9mm to be taken down because adrenaline kept him going through the pain and blood loss
Don't forget about bf's bullet drop, especially back in the day it was one of the only games that did the whole bullet drop thing
@@NathanielBTM
That's an important factor because sniping is supposed to be high skill requirement but high reward for mastering it
Although, it does nerf the sniper at long ranges, where it's supposed to dominate, encouraging more medium range engagements