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Were the Ancient Macedonians Greeks?
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- čas přidán 21. 12. 2020
- In this video Dr. Rebecca Futo Kennedy takes us into a very heatedly debated and emotional topic raging from today to the very foundations of the classical world itself and that is the question "were the ancient Macedonians Greek?
Guiding us through modern borders and nationalism in Greece and Macedonia we see two nations struggling in laying claim to the ancient past and its legacy.
From modern statues of Alexander the Great to political rallies that Dr. Kennedy saw throughout Greece she recounts this argument among the ancients, its complications and issues today that continue to be heatedly debated amongst academics and nationalists.
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Doctor Rebecca Futo Kennedy is Associate Professor of Classics, Women's and Gender Studies, and Environmental Studies at Denison University; and the Director of the Denison Museum. Her research focuses on the political, social, and cultural history of Classical Athens, Athenian tragedy, ancient immigration, ancient theories of race and ethnicity, and the reception of those theories in modern race science.
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You've found the little subscribe logo, I found that last week
@Gobble My Nads as always!
As long as they aren't Turks!👀
I enjoyed it! It highlights a saying I've heard that history is current events. The historical narrative can/does influence opinions and behavior means that the past continues to impact us today!
6:35 expressions like 'Macedonians and Greeks' are political distinctions, not ethnic. There are numerous examples of such distinctions for other Greek city-states: macedoniansweregreeks.com/macedonia-and-greece-the-false-distinction/
Herodotus Book I.56 clearly says (mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Herodotus/Herodotus1.html) that the people who migrated to the south into the Peloponnese and were called Dorians were previously called Macedonians. I.e. the Macedonians were of doric stock! This is also proven by four artifacts written in doric Greek dialect, with the most prominent one being the Pella curse tablet.
The Athenians also hated the Spartans, that doesn't mean that they weren't Greek.
The Athenians in they own words didn't class them as true Greeks, go research herodotus and strabo
@@Taharqo.saved.the.Hebrew Herodotus pointed out in the historyAlexander Ist competed in ancient Olympics as a self-identifying Greek. Strabo repeated called Macedonians Greeks. Many seem to be confused by Athenian rhetoric towards Macedonians during conflict between the two Greek nations as meaning they didn't see them as Greeks.
In 513 BC King Alexander I of Macedon executed the Persian emissaries, because they offended the Palace women. He then sent this message to the Persian King:
" ... tell your king who sent you HOW his GREEK viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably, providing food and company ..."
King Alexander I of Macedon
Herodotus, "The Histories" V.20
herodotus....lol...exactly
might as well read fairy tales
@@thatisme3thatisme38 "ARGOS IS THE LAND OF YOUR FATHERS, and is entitled to as much consideration at your hands as are your own ancestors?!
Isocratis states (To Philip, 32)
"It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race."
(Isokratis, To Philip 127)
"The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, ORIGINALLY Temenids FROM ARGOS."
Thoukididis (Book 2, 99.3):
"Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, MEN OF THE SAME LANGUAGE..."
(Titus. Livius XXXI,29, 15) The Foundation of the City, Paragraph 31
"Greece as one includes Macedonia" «΄Εστιν ουν Ελλάς και η Μακεδονία»
Strabo GEOGRAPHY 10.2.23
"Polybius called Greeks and Macedonians as HOMOPHYLOYS (i.e. PART OF THE SAME RACE or KIN)".
See: Woodard 2010, pp. 9-10; Woodard, Roger D. (2010) [2008]. "Language in Ancient Europe: an Introduction". In Woodard, Roger D. (ed.). The Ancient Languages of Europe. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 1-13
"τότε μὲν γὰρ ὑπὲρ ἡγεμονίας καὶ δόξης ἐφιλοτιμεῖσθε πρὸς Ἀχαιοὺς καὶ Μακεδόνας ὁμοφύλους καὶ τὸν τούτων ἡγεμόνα Φίλιππον."
Polybius, Histories, 9.37.7:
@@thatisme3thatisme38 Isocrates, Thucydides, Strabo, Polybius and Titus Livius also wrote fairytales according to you?! 🤣
@@thatisme3thatisme38 Arrian? 🤣
"Your ancestors came to Macedonia and THE REST OF HELLAS (Greece) and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed LEADER OF THE GREEKS, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you..."
Alexander the Great
Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in Anabasis Alexandri by Arrian; translated as Anabasis of Alexander by P. A. Brunt, for the "Loeb Edition" Book II 14, 4
"He set the Persian palace on fire, even though Parmenion urged him to save it, arguing that it was not right to destroy his own property, and that the Asians would not thus devote themselves to him, if he seemed determined not to rule Asia, but only to pass through as a conqueror. But Alexander replied that he intended to PUNISH THE PERSIANS FOR THEIR INVASION OF GREECE, the destruction of Athens, the burning of the temples, and all manner of terrible things done TO THE GREEKS: because of these things, HE was exacting REVENGE".
[Arrian Anab. 3. 18. 11-12]
@@thatisme3thatisme38 "Macedon was an Ancient GREEK polity. THE MACEDONIANS WERE A GREEK TRIBE. HISTORIOGRAPHY AND SCHOLARSHIP AGREE that Alexander the Great WAS GREEK ."
Hornblower 2008, pp. 55-58;
Errington 1990, pp. 3-4;
Fine 1983, pp. 607-08;
Hall 2000, p. 64;
Hammond 2001, p. 11;
Jones 2001, p. 21;
Osborne 2004, p. 127;
Hammond 1989, pp. 12-13;
Hammond 1993, p. 97;
Starr 1991, pp. 260, 367;
Toynbee 1981, p. 67;
Worthington 2008, pp. 8, 219;
Cawkwell 1978, p. 22;
Perlman 1973, p. 78;
Hamilton 1974, Chapter 2: The Macedonian Homeland, p. 23;
Bryant 1996, p. 306;
O'Brien 1994, p. 25.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#cite_note-Macedonians-282
If Alexander was an outsider then why did Aristotle tutor him?
Aristotle himself quoted Euripides
" that Hellenes should rule barbarians, but not barbarians Hellenes, those being slaves, while these are free."
Aristotle believed that slavery was a natural institution, and that barbarians were by nature meant to be slaves. He therefore encouraged Alexander to be a leader to Greeks and a despot to barbarians, treating the former as friends and the latter as beasts.
The Iliad and Odyssey were Alexanders Bible. He slept with a copy of Aristotles version and always rode into battle with the book. He even went to Troy, on his way to Persia,to pay homage to Achilles (whom he believed to be his ancestor)
@Jordan & Jordan funny though how the Macedonian kings all have etymological Greek names and no "ski" what so ever mentioned anywhere
Alexander wasn't an outsider at all. His birthplace is Pella in Greece only.
Because he was fascinated by the higher level of culture ancient greece had.
@@troyanmartins3746 the point being that Aristotle would never have tutored a "barbarian". Read the rest of my comment
@@ginatz75 not single slav will dare to answer this since they can't
If the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, then why is the period called Hellenistic?
But that term was first used when Macedon was the dominent force was it not? Perhaps they were the original hellenistic people. Perhaps
Because the Macedonians admired the Greek culture as superior to their own ways (they were a pretty regular kingdom as any to the north of them before Alexander's father's societal reforms), copied them and spread them across the former Persian empire.
@@markmorris7123 I think there are no hellenistic people just an era, from 331BC to 31BC, because of the use of greek (Ελληνική - Hellenic) language as lingua franca in East Mediterrenean.
Don't you know that the modern history was designed in a certain way ,not nesseccarilly matching the truth ?
Macedonians were Illyrian/Albanian tribe.
All historians know that that both parents and grandparents of Alexander the Great were Albanians.
Those are the documents till nowadays that the parents and grandparents of Alexander the Great were Albanians.
And historically who know the history of Macedonia all know that Macedonia dynasty were Illyrians.
It's kind of like when British people call Americans "Yankees", and people from southern US call northerners "Yankees" and people from the north east call New Englanders "Yankees"
More like Native Americans listening to white people claim they are American, except they become German French etc. when they claim thier ethnicity amongst themselves. 🙄
As a New Englader, no one should be called a Yankee except for some weird Connecticut folk that like to Wear Yankee hats lol
New England is the north east.
czcams.com/video/teRMxIzx_HM/video.html
@ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ is МАКЕДОНИЈА maimoun why your ancestors declared themselves bulgarian?
Why your national heroes declared themselves bulgarian?
Macedonian patriotic organization declared we are bulgarian and you maimoun deny what your ancestors declared 🤣😆😂
I don't see why the statue of Alexander in Athens is a paradox, since the Macedonians considered Greece as their mother country [Dodge, 'Alexander', p. 187]. And Alexander dedicated 300 suits of Persian armour as a votive offering to the Parthenon with the inscription *_"Alexander, son of Philip and of all the Greeks, [taken] from the barbarians living in Asia"_*
Facts 💯
Macedonians weren't Greeks, they were Macedonians.
So the ancient inscription mentions Greeks? I find that hard to believe as nothing was ever called Greek until 1832. Please explain.
czcams.com/video/lsqyzECK7xs/video.html Watch this you poor Greeks I feel sorry for you 😂
ahhaha greece is not a mother country. Macedonia is the Mother country MajkaDoma
With the same logic you could say that Spartans weren’t Greeks and Athenians weren’t Greeks because everyone hated everyone, and everyone thought their city was better than other cities.
They spoke Greek, they had the same religion as the rest of Greece, they went to war together, they competed in the Olympic Games together.
Saying that it’s not clear whether they were greeks is just nonsense.
They were separate city states, but they were united under the same language, religion and ethnicity.
It’s like saying that Alabama is part of the USA but Texas is not, because they maintain their logistics and finances separately.
The Persians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks, they called them Yauna takabara or Greeks with shieldlike headcoverings.
Yauna is Ionian Sea and that is the word they called ALBANIANS ILIRYANS BECAUSE Macedonians were ALBANIAN tribe speaking the same language as the so-called greeks. They all were ALBANIAN tribes SPEAKING the same language that now is spoken in ALBANIA .
@@iuiu8831 The latest conspiracy theory? Haven't updated after QAnon!
@@kostas3031 if you are not smart enough you may live with conspiracy. I like the truth and dig for it every day and lucky BECAUSE I speak the language that GOD GAVE to HIS PEOPLE. Read the BIBLE and find the history of ALBANIANS there. It starts with GENESIS WITH ALBANIAN WORD -NEFILLIMET= THE PEOPLE OF THE BEGINNING. NAME GENESIS IS THE PREVIOUS NAME OF AN ALBANIAN RIVER. ALL NAMES OF DELFI HAVE MEANINGS ONLY IN ALBANIAN LANGUAGE. YOU HAVE TO STUDY HARD IF YOU WANT TO ANSWER PLUS YOU ARE NOT LUCKY TO SPEAK ALBANIAN .
Check the meaning of your name It sounds much Arvanitas
@@iuiu8831 Living among us!!!
@@iuiu8831 you can't fix stupid!
The Macedonians were Greeks like the Spartans were Greeks and the Athenians were Greeks. There is no evidence and thus no argument to the contrary. Slavic falsely renaming themselves for their expansionist agenda does not an argument make.
@ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ is МАКЕДОНИЈА lol. clown
Exactly
@ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ is МАКЕДОНИЈА stupidity is endless.
@@jedibjj5488 . Greece did not exist as it is Roman name
Great another person that says macedonia is greece>:(
Alexander the Great was born in the city of Pella, in the ancient kingdom of Macedonia, which was - and still is - a part of Greece. The modern Slavic country of North Macedonia (known before 2018 as FYROM), geographically corresponds to the ancient kingdom of Paeonia, not to ancient Macedonia; Paeonia was situated immediately north of the ancient Greek kingdom of Macedonia.
“Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece.” (Strabo, “Geography”, 7, Frg. 9)
“Paeonia is to the east of these nations, and to the west of the Thracian mountains; on the north it lies above Macedonia.” (Strabo, “Geography”, 7, Frg. 4)
“The so-called Republic of 'Macedonia' [North Macedonia] is located in what was ancient Paeonia.” (Paul Cartledge, University of Cambridge, UK)
“Paeonia, roughly where the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is today.” (Timothy Howe, Jeanne Reames, “Macedonian Legacies”, Regina Books, 2008, p.239)
“Ovid was lax in his geography, not least over Paeonia (in fact roughly coextensive with the present Slav republic of Macedonia).” (Ovid [Author], Peter Green [Translator], “The Poems of Exile”, University of California Press, 2005, p.319)
“Besides the former kingdom of Macedon, the Roman region included the territories of Paeonia where the contemporary FYR Macedonia rests.”(Ridvan Peshkopia, “Conditioning Democratization”, Anthem Press, 2015, p.189)
“Paeonia is roughly equivalent to the country currently known as the Republic of North Macedonia (the former FYROM).” (Robin Waterfield, “The Library, Books 16-20: Philip II, Alexander the Great, and the Successors”, Oxford University Press, 2019, p.428)
“Macedonia was - and still is - a territory of northern Greece. The Ancient Macedonians were of Greek origin and spoke a broader rougher dialect of Greek.”(Stephen Batchelor, “The Ancient Greeks for Dummies”, 2008)
Treaty of Bucharest [please inform yourself and geo read up on thepopulatioon exchange of the 1920s with turkey OMG THE TRUTH
@@potatopack
Too funny. You are such an ignoranious you don't know your own "evidence" works againt you. You obviously have never bothered to even read the treaty of Bucharest. If you did you would notice is mentions Greeks. Bulgarians, Serbs and others... but does not mention "Macedonians". This is because back then most of what today is ridiculous framed as "Macedonians".. self-identified as ethnic Bulgarian "Macedonians".
WAS PART OF MACEDONIA
@@gocestojanovski3723 Skopje was part of the ancient Kingdom of Paeonia during Philip's time (who conquered it). Most have confused ancient place names with modern. Ancient Macedonia is100 percent in Greece.
There was also later a Latin Roman Macedonia that was much bigger. And a Greek-speaking Roman Macedonia in Thrace. However there has never been a Macedonia jurisdiction nationalist fanatics in your country claim as "divided" Macedonia. It is a fiction of nationalist fantasies.
Bro, I am neither Greek nor Macedonian but if you have studied history you will see that the land of Macedonia was divided in 3 parts in 1913 and the treaty of Bucharest sealed its fate. We all have seen maps of a whole Macedonia existing from antiquity, including maps from Ancient Roman times which confirms that the land now known as North Macedonia was part of the whole Macedonia, including Pella, Thesaloniki etc etc etc. What you are stating is Greek propaganda. That land you refer to as North Macedonia and FYROM was and is known by this name now because of the politics and not because the people there are not Macedonians or the land was never Macedonia... it was. Please stop with the Vardarska and FYROM propaganda and history will make much more sense to you as it does to many of us who actually look at facts.
"Herodotus made a special point of emphasizing that the royal house of Macedonia was Greek by descent, and THUCIDIDES, WHO QUESTIONED MUCH OF WHAT HERODOTUS SAID CONCURED WITH HIM in calling the Macedonian kings “Temenidae from Argos’. Almost a century later Isocrates wrote to Philip II, saying “Argos is your fatherland’, and asked Philip to emulate his father (Amyntas) the founder of the monarchy (Perdiccas), and the originator of the family (Heracles).”
[For further references consult Hdt.5.22;Thuc.2.99.3;Thuc.5.80.2; Isoc.5.32 and 105-12]
N.G.L Hammond “A History of Greece to 322 B.C.”, pg. 18
herodotus has quite a lot of proven untruths. he liked to bend history to his own liking. he is by no means the be all and end all in anything.
@@thatisme3thatisme38 N.G.L Hammond, who is considered, even after his recent death, one of the leading authorities in ancient Macedonian studies, in this quote CLEARLY stresses the fact that even though Thucydides mistrusted or even questioned many things Herodotus said, on the issue of the Greekness of Macedonians CLEARLY AGREED with him that they were Greeks. Also Hammond mentions Isocrates. So basically he says, that other ancient contemporary writers ALSO SAW THE MACEDONIANS AS GREEKS.AND CONFIRMED HERODOTUS. But i guess you have some sort of problem with your eyes and didn't notice this...
@@thatisme3thatisme38 Herodorus was an on location collector of local stories and local myths, which we now know that hold more truth than much of the history that is indeed constructed by the winning powers. He has admitted his partial knowledge of events as done in his account of Atlantis and how he found out about it. Atlantis, which is clearly depicted in Herodotus map. And while humanity was looking elsewhere for answers, satellite technology confirmed the ancient map by revealing to us all the now popular, eye of the Sahara.
@@meansoftolerance lol please. eye of the sahara is nothing substantive at all. not to mention during those times it is not even possible there was water there as sea levels were not high enough. there is a reason no self respecting archaelogist or geologist would take that seriously.
@@thatisme3thatisme38 the amount of new excavations that take place under water in numerous sites can prove otherwise. Also Sahara, in the times of Atlantis, was a fertile area. Well, this is not a theory, the eyes of the Sahara is.
"Not much need to be said about the Greekness of ancient Macedonia: it is undeniable."
Ian Worthington, "Philip II of Macedon", Yale University, 2008
"Yet they have no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."
-Demosthenes, Third Philippic
@@hi1gr196 PHILIP V SELF-IDENTIFYING AS GREEK:
"For on many occasions when I AND THE OTHER GREEKS sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law."
PHILIP V, KING OF MACEDON
[Polyvius, 18.4.8]
@@hi1gr196 "Demosthenes' allegations were lent an appearance of credibility by the fact, apparent to every observer, that the life-style of the Macedonians, being determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different to that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common to western Greeks of Epirus, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the Macedonians, and THEIR FUNDAMENTAL GREEK NATIONALITY WAS NEVER DOUBTED. Only as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was the issue raised at all."
Errington 1994, p. 4:Errington, Malcolm (1994). A History of Macedonia. Barnes Noble.
@@hi1gr196 Got it mate? 😂
@@vangelisskia214 You've got the wrong Philip there. The fifth isn't the second.
[Dr Michael Scott, Professor of Classics and ancient Greek History, Cambridge University, from his documentary, "Who were the Greeks?"]
*_"The question of who were the Greeks cannot be answered unless we consider two of the most famous Greeks of all, the father and son from northern Greece, King Philip of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great"_*___
Philip was not Greek nor Alexander
@@tomestojanovski4498 Exactly My friend.
Ancients Macedonians were not greeks.
But And Ancients Macedonians were not slavs.
So We are Macedonians Not slavs.
That is the total truth.
We may Stop Slavic And comunistic Propaganda About Makedonija.
They all were illyrian tribes.But greeks today aren‘t descendants of ancient greek they were brought there by the ottomans.Look at greek dna tests high asian and african precentages.They even have darker skin tone than turks.
I would point out that those that bizarrely recognized former Yugoslaviana as "Macedonians" justified it by claiming right to self-determination as an absolute.
Alexander's father Philip.. self-identifying Greek that competed at ancient Olympiad 3 times. (at the time reserved only for greeks0
Alexander's mother Olympias .. .self-identifying Greek princess from Epirus.
Greek mother. Greek father. Claim of the alleged "historian" in this video... it's "vague' if ancient Macedonians were Greeks!. So what happened to prior claim that self-determination trumps all? Funny how those that claimed former Yugoslavians "Macedonian" flip-flop on their own alleged principles when it comes to ancient Macedonians.... indisputably sefl-identifying Hellenes.
@@tomestojanovski4498 for sure he was. he himself said he was. north macedonia is called north macedonia because of the territory they have. alexander has nothing to do with yugoslavia. he spread greek culture and united greece. he was greek. he spoke greek.
Why would that be weird:
*Alexander son Philip & the Greeks,* except the Lacaedamonians, sends these 300 panoplies as trophies from the Barbarians who dwell in Asia.
*He sent them to Athens!!*
Why doesn't this lady show Skopia's statues so we can get a REAL LAUGH!!!
Seems like they were just greeks who were proud of their region who had silly accents kind of like new yorkers or texans😂😂
EXACTLY !!!!👍
"For on many occasions when I AND THE OTHER GREEKS sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law."
PHILIP V, KING OF MACEDON
[Polyvius, 18.4.8]
So the answer is ? Is Macedonian Greek their was no answer
@Konstantin Trehagyrevopoulos says the refugee from Asia, your Egyptian BOY
@@vesmakrievski1743 "GREEKS ARE SOME OF THE EARLIEST CONTRIBUTORS OF GENETIC MATERIAL TO THE REST OF THE EUROPEANS AS THEY ARE ONE OF THE OLDEST POPULATIONS IN EUROPE"
Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi Luca; Menozzi, Paolo; Piazza, Alberto (1996). The History and Geography of Human Genes. Princeton University Press. pp. 255-301
@@vesmakrievski1743 MODERN GREEKS ARE DESCENDANTS OF ANCIENT MYCENAEANS
"Comparison between ancient DNA and modern DNA suggest that the Greeks are descendants of the Mycenaeans and that only a small proportion of the DNA in living Greeks come from later migrations to Greece."
sciscape/modern-greeks-decedents-ancient-mycenaeans
@@vesmakrievski1743 "The analysis of the data has showed that residents of North "Macedonia" have the most similar DNA with Bulgarians and Serbs"
"The neighbor-joining consensus tree constructed based on the results of the genetic distance analysis SHOWS THAT THE POPULATION OF THE MACEDONIAN ETHNIC ORIGIN HAS POSSIBLE HIGHEST SIMILARITY WITH THE BUGARIAN POPULATIONS, and not such dissimilarity with the cluster which consists Bosnian and Herzegovinian-Serbian-Croatian populations, while the Kosovo population create a separate group (Fig. 2)."
dnaconsultants/balkan-dna-studies/
You're doing this on purpose now. :)
Yes, thats what I think too and its absolutely lame clickbait. Everytime that he needs some drama that would create comments/views > youtube revenue, he brings this lady in the role of a ''scholarly'' kamikaze. Its not by accident that the serious videos of this channel have other guests. Its a pity that he refuges to clickbait sensationalism because the channel has many interesting subjects.
@ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ is МАКЕДОНИЈА no one read anything slav with bulgarian language
@@neutralpeace647 MACEDONIANS speak Macedonian language.
@ f f q q .
@@tatjanavelkova5814 CITIZENS OF F Y R O M SPEAK B U L G A R I A N , ILITERATE B U L G A R I A N TROLL ! ! ! !
Macedonia and Macedonians were Greek specifically of Doric Greek not Ionian or Achaian or Attic Greeks. Naturally They had to be in order to be participating in the Olympic games.
@ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ is МАКЕДОНИЈА let's keep reporting you for spamming nonsense.
all u needed as mentioned is some made up greek ancestor from like 4 generations back to compete. and you could make it up easy.
@@apostolosmate3361 the etymology of the word Μακεδνός (Makednos) is enough to tell anyone what Macedonia is, was and will always be. Furthermore all the excavations tell the same Hellenic story that has been for three thousand years period.
@@thatisme3thatisme38 the etymology of the word Μακεδνός (Makednos) is enough to tell anyone what Macedonia is, was and will always be. Furthermore all the excavations tell the same Hellenic story that has been for three thousand years period.
@@lazaruspoutselas excavations of what? if in the future they dig up shit in china they would think that the chinese spoke english too
It doesn't matter what we think. They called themselves Hellenic. Their Athenian/Southern Hellenic people considered them weird Hellenic. Weird and strange.....but Hellenic nonetheless
Athenian writers at the time were pretty affronted about Phillip's claims.
Ahahaha. Allow me to quote from Demosthenes' Third Philippic:
He [Philipp II.] is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."
Olimpia name was Mirtal but later changed into Olimpia.
And mother of Philip Eurydice have other name before and change into Eurydice.
Look the marriage were only between illyrians, macedonians,dardanians and epirotes.
That show they did marriage only between in the same race.
Is very important that.
@@user-wq1iv9eb6w From where did you get your informations?
@@Pados_music czcams.com/video/nyjBTVSNaaI/video.html
Click in the links even Ex-Foreign Minister of Greece tell that Alexander the Great mother was Illyrian/Albanian.
But swear to god is not only Olimpia/Mirtali an Illyrian/Albanian but both Alexander the Great parents and grandparents are Illyrian/Albanian.
I'm not joking and I dont care about others history and even make a propaganda but this is the truth the Alexander the Great were Albanian blood.
This is the true.
Next week........ Were the Colchians African?
Is this based on Herodotus and his Egyptian army theory?
you're going to get so many dislikes for the suggestion but I have heard evidential the references
It is possible that they were like Egyptians but I doubt they were subsaharan africans. There should be some dna research done by now no?
Judging by the poor scholarship of this video....Next week... was George Washington American? It was a long time ago after all. Today's Americans are just deluded assimilated nationalist that fantasize they are Americans.
Was Thomas Jefferson American?
Can our north Macedonian tell us why they declared themselves bulgarian before Tito?
Its encyclopedia from Chicago 👇🤣😂😂
www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/773.html
What?? Aristotle was an Athenian with pro Macedonian sentiment? That is incorrect. He was born in Stageira in Macedonia and yes Aristotle was Greek as much as Alexander who rallied the Greeks against Persia in order to avenge the burning of the Parthenon from the Persians. So are we disputing that Aristotle is not Greek as well? And Alexander who was his pupil and slept with the Odyssey under his pillow was not Greek? Macedonias were Greeks just like the Spartans, the Thracians, the Thessalian, the Atticans were. This video has a political lens not a historical one.Not sure what agenda is behind this.
@George Pavlov Why wouldn't Aristotle understand Alexander if they were BOTH Macedonian Greek ?
@George Pavlov Correct. Greeks were calling themselves Hellenes (Ελληνες) just as they are calling themselves today. They were both born in Greek Macedonia. Aristotle was born in Stageira and Alexander in Pella. Therefore they both had the same nationality and considered themselves Hellenes just like the Athenians, Spartans, Ionian, Thracian , Thessalians, Peloponnesians, and Cretans did.
@George Pavlov Incorrect. First of all not sure what "you guys" means. Ελληνες was the term Greeks gave to themselves referring to the union of all Greek people speaking the same language, obeyed to the same Gods had the same culture, education (Παιδεια), and Ethnicity (Εθνος). What others called the Hellenes is irrelevant. What is relevant is what Alexander believed and what the rest of the Greeks believed of themselves and who they represented.
@George Pavlov You showed your true colors. Once you can't win the argument with facts, you start the insults. A typical reaction of ignorant people with a high degree of inferiority complexes. Advise: 1) Study History (Ιστορια) and 2 ) Create your own instead of plagiarizing others.
Rediculis Dr Kennedy say as that the statue of alexander in Athens is paradox because Athens was in war with Macedonia.So she create a paradox and forgot and other one:1) modern athens can not use spartan or ather heros statues because they fight against athens 2500 before ? 2) There is not paradox statue of Alexander in a slavic country of Skopje a population who comes in the area 900 after alexander?
Is very alarming how uneducated people make video
Exactly she is really ridiculous.
Came from where? Greeks came to the Balkans 500 years after the Trojan war.
@milansimonovic8267 if they came 500 years after the trojan war how did they participate and how did they record this war? 🤯🤣🤣🤣you must be overflowing with knowledge
@@gelisgeo1309 if you could read, you would read the orignal Homers writigs in thise he never once mentiond Greec or Greeks. You keep hangin on to British imeperial histor, see where that gets you.
@@gelisgeo1309 and ancer me grat scolar what does Pella mean in Greek?
When you have city-states and kingdoms you’ll have people have layers of views. Like New Yorkers saying how they’re better than Chicagoan’s
From Alexander himself, ...today you can see an inscription Alexander put on a mountain in Turkey , " Alexander and the Greeks without the Lacaemodonians (Spartans) conquered this city". Apparently, to make sure everyone knew the Spartans never joined him in his quest. He himself, in this statement identifies the Macedonians as Greeks .
GREEK MACEDONIANS should not be confused with modern "slavic Macedonians" also known as Macedonian Bulgarians (Bulgarian: македонци or македонски българи), of the modern country called REPUBLIC OF NORTH MACEDONIA (Former Yugoslavia), sometimes also referred to as ""ethnic Macedonians" or slav-Macedonians or Macedono-Bulgarians or Macedo-Bulgarians" , who are a regional, ethnographic south slavic ethnic group related to Bulgarians, inhabiting the geographic region of what was the Southern Serbian region of Vardar Banovina and who started calling themselves "Macedonians" in the late 19th century in a regional sense due to leftist political factors, they have NO CONNECTION with the ancient Greek region of Macedonia in northern Greece or with the ancient Greek tribe of Macedonians of Alexander the Great.
[Mary Beard, Professor of History, Cambridge University UK]
*_"In truth there isn't a cat in hell's chance that Alexander was a slav"_*
And yet the UK ridiuclously recognized them as "ethnic" Macedonians. To this day antihellenic trolls in the British government and press, along with nations and journalists around the world, along with self-annoited "human right defenders", along with alleged "historians" liek the one in the video.... all unethically play stupid over the former Yugoslavians switch of identity. They also play stupid as the former Yugoslavians abuse the name to promote what they call "United Macedonia"
this exactly what Greeks warned would happen and nearly everyone pretends we were wrong to object. They lie in the present then claim to speak for history and ethics.
Based
If Cambridge sead so, why dont they explain to you what Pella means in Greek?
And why 0.01 peopel in Greece are named Alexandar. If he was truly Greek, why did not Greek rulers use the title Aleksandar like Srebs use Stefan. And yes Stefan is a title not a name.
@@milansimonovic8267 Unlike former Yugoslavins that today rename everything Philip and Alexander in pathetic and dangerous attempt to steal Greek history., there are many names in Greece.
[Eugene Borza, Emeritus professor, Makedonika 1995]
*_"The highlanders or Makedones of the mountainous regions of western Macedonia are derived from north-western Greek stock. They were akin both to those who at an earlier time may have migrated south to become the historic Dorians. That is we may say that north-western Greece provided a pool of IE speakers of proto-Greek"_*
That's not evidence...just someone's opinion. Try again clown.
@@MacedonianHero It is evidence that is backed by Historical evidence, Archaeological evidence and also from the classics.. There is no evidence that the Macedonians were Thracians or Illyrians. Today ALL historians accept the fact that the ancient Macedonians were a people of Greek stock.
@@MacedonianHero Hope that helps
@@JapanMonAmourTheJapanHouse But there is none. Malaka
@@MacedonianHero There is historical evidence and there is archaeological evidence. Its known the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek. The Macedonians proudly declared that they were Greek. They were recognised as Greeks by the Hellenodikai and allowed to participate in the Olympic games where only Greeks could participate.
Most people say that we should not mix modern politics in and examine historical issues purely from a scientific pov. And I agree 100%. Although this very issue has been raised due to modern politics. 50 years ago nobody asked this question the majority of the academic community considered Macedonians Hellenic even if they have certain idiosyncrasies in their local culture that made them look abit odd because being on the northern border of the hellenic groups, they retained some obsolete archaic elements and also picked up some from the neighbouring cultures. This wave, or effort of academic revisionism is not the product of any new uncovered sources or archaelogical finds. Its the product of
A) Alot of political lobbying that passed around ALOT of money and B) The desire of some of the academians of the new generations to bring something new forward and stop living in the shadows of academic giants that did the majority of the break throughs. Either in excavations or translating the original sources. When it comes to the classical antiquity until they get a major discovery of the caliber of the Vergina tombs, most of these academics that struggle for a non already occupied tenure in a university, are ''condemned'' to recite again and again the work of others. Its almost understandable that their desire for distinction can make them board the hype of unsupported revisionism and try to sell at least some books and lectures.
And in order to understand how all leads back to modern politics lets se another case study. The Epirotans where also a ''fringe'' hellenic group, BUT because the modern Albanian lobbies had not the same leverage and persistence of the ones from the now ''Northern Macedonia'', the wider international audience and academic cyrcles dont even bother to ask ''Was Pyrrus Greek?'' ''Were the Epirotan kingdoms greek?''. Offcourse there are cyrcles in Albania that will tell you that even Colombus was Albanian, and to be fair every balkan country has its share of crazy nationalists, but nobody takes them seriously. No respectable academian raises the matter.
This issue is really a great case study about the power of the media and targeted propaganda. The Greek state knew about those claims that started in the 50's but did not act upon them counterbalancing the storm of payed thesis, lectures, internet uploads etc. Partly because it was a NATO country and Yugoslavia was still somewhat an eastern block country with the chance of some real claims being extremely slim. Partly because of arrogance ''oh just let them making fools of themselves'' and partly because of incompetence. You see back then the greek politicians were more busy with dipping their hands in the ''cookie jar'' of military and infrastructure contracts, than to spend their precious (literally) time with ''those upstarts in the north''. When they realised that there was a real issue, they scrambled but that ended to bold rhetorics, nationalistic bullshit for internal consumation and kitsch fiestas almost rivaling those of our serbo-bulgarian neighbours.
The fact is that the academia has opinions on other cultures with far less tangible proofs in their hands. But in the case of Macedonians, despite that they worshiped the same gods, spoke the same language, claimed lineage from the same mythic background, spreading the hellenic civilisation even when they had subdued the southern city states, ''we dont know''. Sorry but I call bullshit. Then we dont know anything about any other ancient culture.
Lets make it vague if George Washington was American. Lets not mix modern politics with historical issues.
Well said. I'm subscribed to this channel from years ago when all he did was upload other people's documentaries and lectures, but when I see it pop up since then, it's always some click-baity, race-baity, or politically motivated historical topic catering to fringe activists, like "Was ancient Egypt black?" I generally don't come here much, but when I do, it's exactly what I've come to expect.
Very well said my friend.
My friend, my opinion is just identical to yours. I don't know if you have even lived in Greece, but you described the situation on point.
Hellenic culture was spread from Mesopotamia up to river Danube !
You are personally worse than Eastern European block country former members , still not recovered of Yunta and bankruptcy and mentality characteristic for non Europeans , came by pirating .
YUGOSLAVIA was non aligned .
@crna Hronika
You are missing the key point here. the point is the Macedonians were OF GREEK STOCK, that is they were RACIALLY GREEK.
[ Eugene N. Borza (1995) 'Makedonika'] "The highlanders or Makedones of the mountainous regions of Macedonia are DERVIED FROM NORTH WESTERN GREEK STOCK. They were akin both to those who at an earlier time may have migrated south to become the historical Dorians. That is we may say that north western Greece provide a pool of IE speakers of PROTO-GREEK"
[Eugene Borza (1995) 'Makedonika'] "On the Hellenic origins of the Macedonians, Nicholas Hammonds general conclusion that the origin of the Macedonians lies in the pool of proto-Greek speakers who migrated out of the Pindus mountains during the Iron age IS ACCEPTABLE"
You are missing the point of Borza entirely. According to Borza, the definition of being 'Greek,' was the society that evolved from the Mycenaean civilisation and evolved into democratic Republics in the south of Greece.. The Macedonians though did not evolve form the Myceanean civilisation, since they were isolated from southern Greece, but they were of Greek stock according to Borza, In fact in a much earlier book published in 1990 Borza writes "The Macedonians themselves may have originated from the same population pool that produced other Greek people" [ In the Shadow of Olympus]
And of course there was an ethnic division between Greeks and Macedonians, the Greeks in the south considered the Macedonians as a separate ethnos. This ethnic division was not a blood issue but a political issue. the definition of being Greek was that one belonged to a Democratic Republic. The Macedonians therefore did not have that sort of a structure since they were a feudal autocratic monarchy, on that basis they were not considered bona fide Greeks.
People saying it's ironic for athens to have a statue if alexander yet nobody talks about skopje a paeonian town that used to belong to dardanians at some point ,both enemies of Macedonia having macedonian statues 😒
do not confuse north macedonia with ancient macedonia; the territory to the north of ancient macedonia (macedonia prima) was called macedonia secunda or macedonia salutaris by the romans, currently it is called north macedonia, only half of this territory was conquered by fillip II, that leaves skopje in the kingdom of dardania
The Ottoman population records which were detailed, note Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians etc..but "Macedonians" are nowhere to be found..because such an ethnicity did not exist, it was artificially created in the 20th century for various reasons
There are documents even on 15th century about macedonians.
In ottoman census the census was religious so macedonians were devided between bulgarian and greek church . Informe better before say bullshit
@@Makedon9 Both Greeks (Rum) and Bulgarians are Orthodox. However the Ottomans considered them as separate nations (millet) with separate representation in the Palace. Such was treatment for real nations, and not silly propagandas.
@@apostolosmate3361
Both orthodox but different church, this is why many macedonians were devided .
The area inhabited by ethnic Macedonians (also known as Slavo-Macedonians) constitutes the Republic of Macedonia and the borders of south-western Bulgaria, northern Greece and eastern Albania. In 1872 religious control over the Orthodox population of Macedonia was divided between Patriarchate Greeks and Exarchate Bulgarians, and at the turn of the century the region was populated by members of many ethnic groups speaking a common language closely related to Bulgarian. In 1872, when the Bulgarian exarchate became an independent church, the Greek state (through the Patriarchate) and the Bulgarian state (through the Bulgarian exarchate) exercised massive pressure on the Macedonian-speaking population to remain loyal or join their respective churches.
minorityrights.org/minorities/macedonians-3/
This is why many macedonians in ottoman census were recorded as greeks and other as bulgarians , because of religion not because of ethnicity!!!
@@Makedon9 👍
@@shqyptaralbania5151 ?
Knowing her past comments, she's going to say they were actually black and race was not a concept they would have understood.
Don't be bitter 😂
I thought the Finns were black….🤣
"Knowing her past comments, she's going to say they were actually black and race was not a concept they would have understood."
Exactly. Ancient Macedonian were indisputably self-identifying Hellenes yet this "professor" makes it vague for modern political reasons (i.e. her unprofessional lying by claiming the former Yugoslavians "Macedonians" when she well knew they were not)
Under the veneer of academic work "Dr." Kennedy is peddling woke ideology. Unfortunately, she's not the only one. A significant segment of the humanities abuse their academic credentials to frame their politics as scientific (see Sokal Affair).
What's darkly funny is she thinks she's tolerant and against racism... while meanwhile, she's, genocidally, trying to narrate ethnic Greeks out of existence.
You know Americans are absolutely obsessed with blackwashing history
@@ayo9715 Super woke "academics" like Futo in two thousand years will claim Martin Luther King many have been an Irishnab. And the funny thing is there is a better case for it as the evidence suggests King was of partial Irish heritage.
Read up on physicist Alan Sokal's scathing assessment of on some of the "scientific" claims being churned out by some leftists in the humanities these days. It describes the unprofessional behavior of Futo to a tee. What she's trying to do is peddle her obvious leftist ideological views as "scientific" by tweaking narratives of evidence in her field to match her leftwing politics. "academics" like is how you end up with ridiculous narratives that Cleopatra was black.
Read also the Bible at Daniel refers that Macedonians belong to greek tribes at the name of Alexander as the king of Greeks
Macedonia is a Greek name with a Greek meaning.
Alexander is a Greek name with a Greek meaning.
Philippos (father) is a Greek name with a Greek meaning.
Olympia (mother) is a Greek name with a Greek meaning.
Macedonia has a Greek creation myth.
Macedonians are said to be descendants of Hercules.
Macedonians took part in the Olympics. Only Greeks were allowed to take part.
Macedonians spoke Greek.
Macedonians believed in the Greek Pantheon.
Macedonians followed Greek traditions and festivals.
Macedonian sun symbol is called Vergina sun, which is Greek.
Macedonia has architecture and art similar to other Greek city states.
Erring slavs (Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians etc.) today with no country found themselves on the geographical location where the Macedonians once thrived, so it's enough evidence for them that they are Macedonians. It's a pity for someone not having an identity. But it's a great crime to attempt to steal another's identity.
This has always been undisputable for thousands of years, until recent years where we start hearing things like "Vikings were not Scandinavians", "The first English were Egyptians and Blacks", "Macedonians were not Greeks" etc. To further political ideologies they seek to change history.
Educate yourselves. Read Plutarch. Read Arrian. Read Herodotus. Read Homer.
Also read the old testament and you will see the hatred of the Jews and their Yahweh against the Greeks and the plan to undermine them and overtake everything they ever created.
In what book of the Old Testament is the thing you're talking about?
Nice concept but was the meaning of this words AlekSonDer MakeDon?
Please reveal to be if MakeDon where Greek from where did they get horses and cavalry that simply has never found any evidence of it in Greece?
This like Greek concept of when Amazon are told to be Scythian and Greek jumps in saying that Scythian are also Greek?!
Albanians are not Slavs, and Sparta is a Albanian word, „Sphata means = Sword“ even Athen, „A Thona“ means = The Spoken“ , dont steal history, Alexander was ILLYRIAN BLOOD
@@skenderbeu6636 SHQIPTARS are not Báni,Jáni,Háni,Káni,Cáni….and as such are not TheBanis nor SParthian which was a CaucaSIAN group who defended the gate of heaven how we call it of gate of HeLL how southerners call it against AchæMENid army of 1.000.000. Such a story like many other where adopted by Greeks and others Mediterranean groups but had nothing to do with them neither Shqiptars.
AlekSonDer MakeDon according to Greek stories had a cavalry something that Greeks like Romans didn’t have neither did Shqiptars which destroys all of your claims which by default is based upon same late claims and stories.
@@hondacbrification Explain me why Greek God Names have Translation in the Albanian language and not in the Greek language, for example Hercules „Hekur Le“ (Albanian) , there was no Ancient Greek, it was all Illyria, we was the first People in the Balkan, look at the Hunza people from Pakistan, they are called the ancient macedonians from the army of alexander the great, these people live like the albanians do, Same Traditions same music and clothes
Alexander I, King of Macedon (reigned 498-454 BC):
"...you should say to the King [King of Persia] who sent you, that A HELLENE [Alexander I of Macedon], the Grandmaster of Macedon, welcomed you...."
Herodotus [5.20.4]
"πρὸς δὲ καὶ βασιλέϊ τῷ πέμψαντι ἀπαγγείλητε ὡς ἀνὴρ Ἕλλην, Μακεδὼν ὕπαρχος, εὖ ὑμέας ἐδέξατο".
Alexander III AKA the Great, King of Macedon (reigned 332-323 BC):
"Your ancestors came to Macedonia and THE REST OF HELLAS (Greece) and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed LEADER OF THE GREEKS, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you..."
Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea, as quoted in Anabasis Alexandri by Arrian; translated as Anabasis of Alexander by P. A. Brunt, for the "Loeb Edition" Book II 14, 4
PHILIP V, King of Macedon (reigned 221 to 179 BC):
"For on many occasions when I AND THE OTHER GREEKS sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law." [Polyvius, 18.4.8]
The Former Yugoslav Republic of North Macedonia was NEVER Macedonia in its History, it was only named Macedonia in 1944 by Marshall Tito for his nefarious political reasons.
The region started of as Ancient Paeonia/Dardania, then it became Theme -Bulgaria, Bulgaria, Imperium Romanum, Vilayet Minastir / Vilayet Kosovo, Old Serbia, South Serbia, Kingdom of Yugoslavia, , Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, Vardar Banovina, Peoples Republic of Macedonia (1944), Peoples Socialist Republic of Macedonia, FYROM.
In other words the modern country called Republic of North Macedonia was named Macedonia for the first time in 1944, by Marshall Tito. And why?? Tito wanted to invade northern Greece and take the northern Greek territory of Macedonia and its capital of Thessaloniki and so gain access to the Aegean, so calling his territory "Macedonia" was an excuse in the hope that it would confuse the international community on where the borders of Macedonia where and facilitate his invasion of northern Greece.
BTW, Greece has 95% of ancient Macedonian territory. The modern country called Republic of North Macedonia was originally the Southern Serbian region of Vardar Banovina, which roughly corresponds to what was historically ancient Dardania/Paeonia, but was NEVER Macedonia. The state was created in 1944 by the Yugoslav comintern and the name "Macedonia" was invented for it by Marshall Tito in 1944.
Cigan jadi gomna
As far as I know Greece has 100 percent of ancient Macedonia. Prior to ancient Macedonian conquests the former Yugoslavian republic was the Kingdom of Dardinia to the north and Kingdom of Paonia to the south. There is some dispute over this (i.e. I can't t say this as an absolute fact without further archeological research to confirm) but Paeonia seems to have stretched so far south part of it is present day Macedonia Greece. Alexander's father Philip conquered Paeonia (Skopje) but even after conquest the primary people living there were Paeonians not Macedonians.
"Herodotus made a special point of emphasizing that the royal house of Macedonia was GREEK by descent, and Thucydides, who questioned much of what Herodotus said concurred with him in calling the Macedonian kings “Temenidae from Argos’. Almost a century later Isocrates wrote to Philip II, saying “Argos is your fatherland’, and asked Philip to emulate his father (Amyntas) the founder of the monarchy (Perdiccas), and the originator of the family (Heracles).”
[For further references consult Hdt.5.22;Thuc.2.99.3;Thuc.5.80.2; Isoc.5.32 and 105-12]
N.G.L Hammond “A History of Greece to 322 B.C.”, pg. 18
If you actually look into this the original source for this claim comes from Alexander I in the 6th C. BC (Alexander the Great was III) Who created essentially a fictionalized genealogy in order to get macedonians admitted to the Olympic Games. There was no actual evidence, or even any real belief by people at the time, that the macedonians came from Argos, but it was a plausible enough story that politically they could admit them.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug hello! Im learning ancient Hellenic history and i came across with a speech alexander the first of makedonia gave at the greek military camp at Tempi Boiotia and Plataies. "As a hellenic by origin i dont want to see hellas enslaved" Herodotus 9,45. Is that trick of his too?
@@theodore4017 that depends entirely how much you trust Herodotus, after all, he lived centuries later
@@Laotzu.Goldbug hi! I also came a cross yesterday with the writing of thucydides
Thucydides 2.99.
"Alexander i, son of Perdikka and his ancestors, are Timenide from the ancient hellenic genus of Argos..." Also today i encountered a script from historian Arrianos flabios and his work " Alexander's anavasis" in which he describes his military campaign in Asia, the following words from a letter from Alexander the Great who sent 300 persian armor breastplates to athens as a hellenic hegemon. His words "I, Alexander, son of Phillip and all hellenics except Spartans, from barbarian's who live in Asia"
Arrianos, Anavasis 1.16.7.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug actually herodotus lived for sometime in Alexander's i Makedonian Palace. Everything he learnt it was from Alexander i himself. It is well known that Herodotus and Alexander i both lived in 5th century BC.
Why did Demosthenes call Philip a barbarian?? Answer: Demosthenes Hated Kings and sought to insult Philip.
Firstly the Term "Barbarian" had many meanings in ancient Greece, it also meant 1) Unicivilised. 2) Backwards thinking/politically. 3) Speaking in a Rough, broad and vulgar dialect of Greek. Monarchies were regarded as Backward and uncivilised, therefore were called "Barbarian" by the Athenians. ............Secondly the Athenians called most other Greeks barbarians including Spartans, Locrians, Eleans and Aetolians etc etc, ..................Thirdly Demosthenes defended the Republic and hated monarchies and Kings. Philip of Macedon presented himself as a blue-blood Greek which incensed Demosthenes who was Half Scythian. .........It is well known that Demosthenes speeches against Philip were pure political rhetoric. Reading Demosthenes speeches against Philip leading up to the 3rd Philippic, his language becomes stronger and stronger and it wasn't untill Philip was in Boeotia that Demosthenes finally broke down and called him a "barbarian". This prompted the intervention of the Orator Aeschines who found it necessary to counter the prejudice fomented by Demosthenes at a meeting of the Athens popular assembly to defend Philip and describe him as ENTIRELY GREEK. Any historian will tellyou that Demosthenes corpus was simply "Political rhetoric designed to formulate public policy" (Borza,I "n the shadow of Olympus" 1992, p. 2-6) or just as "insulting speech" (Nicholas Hammond, 'The Miracle that was Macedonia', 1991
ALEXANDER’s speech before the battle of Issus:
"...We Macedonians are to fight Medes and Persians, nations long steeped in luxury, while we have long been hardened by warlike toils and dangers; and above it will be a fight among free men and slaves. And so•far as GREEK will meet GREEK, WE shall not be fighting for like causes; those mercenaries with Dareius will risk their lives for pay, and poor pay too; WE on the contrary shall fight for GREECE and our hearts will be in it".Arrian, "
Anabasis of Alexander" Book II, Ch.7, par.4,5 Cambridge, Massachussets, Harvard University Press
"He set the Persian palace on fire, even though Parmenion urged him to save it, arguing that it was not right to destroy his own property, and that the Asians would not thus devote themselves to him, if he seemed determined not to rule Asia, but only to pass through as a conqueror. But Alexander replied that he intended to PUNISH THE PERSIANS FOR THEIR INVASION OF GREECE, the destruction of Athens, the burning of the temples, and all manner of terrible things done TO THE GREEKS: because of these things, HE was exacting REVENGE".
[Arrian Anab. 3. 18. 11-12].
Greek and Hellenes are not the same. That is the point of confusion. Two people can both be Europeans but they can also be of completely different nationalities. To be Helen does not mean to be Greek, but a member of a broader cultural, geographical and civilizational wholes.
@@krstovukoje5958 There is not any point of confusion. You are the one who is confused actually. In the original text by Arrian the word "Hellenes" is used by the author. What you read hear above, is simply an english translation and the modern author translates the term "Hellenes" as "Greeks". So as you can realize your silly argument has already been proven invalid. 😂
The terms "Greek" and "Hellene" were and still in our days are SYNONYMS. The ancient Greeks called themselves "Hellenes" (Modern Greeks also. Greece in Greek is Hellas and the Greek is a Hellene).The Romans called the Hellenes Graeci and their lands Graecia from which we get the modern english word Greek, the spanish Greco etc. The Graikoi were initially a Hellenic tribe in the western part of Greece and the Romans due to their closer geographical proximity and more relations with them than other Hellenes, came to call all Hellenes as Graikoi-Graeci-Greeks... The two words mean exactly the same thing, in case you ignore the meaning of the term "synonym"... 😂
@@krstovukoje5958 "Old English Grēcas ‘the Greeks’, from Latin Graeci, the name given by the Romans to the people who called themselves the Hellenes, from Greek Graikoi, which ACCORDING TO ARISTOTLE WAS THE PREHISTORIC NAME OF THE HELLENES" .
"The English name Greece and the similar adaptations in other languages derive from the Latin name Graecia (Greek: Γραικία), literally meaning 'the land of the Greeks', which was used by Ancient Romans to denote the area of modern-day Greece. Similarly, the Latin name of the nation was Graeci, which is the origin of the English name Greeks. Those names, in turn, trace their origin from Graecus, the Latin adaptation of the Greek name Γραικός (pl. Γραικοί), which means 'Greek', but its etymology remains uncertain. It is unclear why the Romans called the country Graecia and its people Graeci, but the Greeks called their land Hellas and themselves Hellenes. Several speculations have been made. William Smith notes in his Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography that foreigners frequently refer to people by a different name (an exonym) from their native one (an endonym).Smith 1854, p. 299. Aristotle was the first to use the name Graeci (Γραικοί), in his Meteorology. He wrote that the area around Dodona and the Achelous River was inhabited by the Selli and a people, who had been called GRAECI but were called HELLENES by his time. (Aristotle, Meteorology, 1.14) . From that statement, it is asserted that the name of Graeci was once widely used in Epirus and the rest of the western coast of Greece. It thus became the name by which the Hellenes were known to the Italic peoples, who were on the opposite side of the Ionian Sea." Smith 1854, p. 299
@@Voyager759 It's clear as crystal that you're totally clueless on the subject. LOL
The passages that i quoted are taken by Arrian's "Anabasis", which according to the vast majority of expert scholars worldwide is the most reliable source when it comes to Alexander's life and campaigns. Harvard University Press simply translated and published Arrian's work "genius"...
@@Voyager759 "The Anabasis of Alexander by Arrian is considered the best source on the campaigns of Alexander the Great."
"Arrian's chief sources in writing the Anabasis were the lost CONTEMPORARY HISTORIES OF THE CAMPAIGN by Ptolemy and Aristobulus and, for his later books, Nearchus.[3]"
wiki/The_Anabasis_of_Alexander
Why are the modern slav Macedonians (Bulgarians) being brought into this debate??? The country they live in called Republic of North Macedonia was NEVER Macedonia in the first place, It was acient Dardania. Slav Macedonians are a Bulgarian people who settkled in the northern parts of the historic region of Macedonia in or around 700 AD. They self identified as Bulgarians until the end of the 19th century when after the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Bulgarians wanted to create a separate Macedonian state, and encouraged the Bulgarian population of Macedonia to self identify as "Macedonians", in a regional sense. This is early 20th century Balkan politics. These Bugarian folk or 'Bulgarian Macedonians' have nothing to do with ancient Macedonia since they arrived inthe Balkans 1000 years after Alexander the Great lived. So why are they being broght into the debate when they have nothing to do with antiquity??? If youwant to put the question of whether the ancient Macedonians were Greeks, Illyrians or THracians, that would make for a more sensible approach, Since those were theonly three ancient folk that lived in the Balkans.
Infact. The current OFFICIAL (claimed by their ruling classes) identity of Macedonia is a result of the Russian/Soviet-Communist/Serbian-Yugoslavian propaganda. IT's hard to say what the ordinary people think about this, the same way it's hard to say what the people of Russia think about the war in the Ucraine.
What does Pella mean in Greek?
@@milansimonovic8267 The name is derived from the word pella, (Ancient Greek: πέλλα), "stone" which seems to appear in some other toponyms in Greece like Pellene.
Source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella
@@milansimonovic8267 Also the original name of the city was Θεσσαλονίκη Thessaloníkē. It was named after the princess Thessalonike of Macedon, the half sister of Alexander the Great, whose name means "Thessalian victory", from Θεσσαλός Thessalos, and Νίκη 'victory' (Nike), honoring the Macedonian victory at the Battle of Crocus Field (353/352 BC).
Source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki 😊
@@thanosgr468 is't PETRA stone...
Disappointed not to hear the underlying cause of the question "Were the ancient Macedonians Greek?" It comes from the break-up of Yugoslavia and the creation of a new Slavic ethnicity crafted to justify and maintain political independence. Slavic speakers were not present in in any significant way in ancient Macedonia and would not be for many centuries after Alexander. Per the Prespes Agreement North Macedonia agreed that the Macedonia language is a South Slavic language, and that citizens are not related to the ancient Greek kingdom of Macedon, and even removed removed the Sun of Vergina from its flag. So, even reasonable North Macedonians and their government recognized these self-evident facts.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prespa_agreement
As to how ancients Hellenes looked at Macedonians, and vice versa, this was no different than how all Greeks looked at each other. They were rivals, not united. Most of the writing we have comes from Athenians, a group that had little reason to love Macedonia and benefitted from denigrating their conquerors. I give credit to the Dr. for mentioning this.
To summarize, we only ask this question because of nonsensical revisionist history that could lead to irredentist claims. When we look at the actual evidence, there is no reason to doubt that they were Greek or Hellenic. They spoke a Greek language and worshipped through a Greek religion; the two main aspects of what makes a Greek even today! If Macedonians were not Greek, neither were Cypriots, Cretans, Ionians, Sicilian Greeks, Italian Greeks, etc. The notion is ridiculous and there is nothing complicated for a serious unbiased scholar to figure out.
Nothing will change the truth! Macedonians are descendent of ancient macedonians and all the ancient people who inhabited this macedonian region . The dna is one of the proof and the culture , tradition and language is the other proof. All the heroes born on macedonian region in the past and it will happen again and again and nobody can change this. Macedonia is land of heroes, was and will be' again ! Greeks never Claimed macedonian history before 18th century ! This agreement was done for you to recognise the macedonian minority there. And finally we will know how many macedonians live in northern greece. And for the other who claim to be' macedonians or greek macedonians, those are nothing that asia minors , and pontians who have nothing to do with ancient macedonians!
Every deal if is not constitutionally and right can be' destruct. But with this deal i think that greece lost so many thing. You recognise a country with name north Macedonia, this means that exist a south macedonia that is a part of one ENTIRE!
@@Makedon9 "It should be noted that there is NO CONNECTION between the ancient Macedonians of the time of Alexander the Great who were related to other Greek [Hellenic] tribes, and the modern so called "Macedonians" of today [of the Former Yugoslav Rep..of north Macedonia]who are of Slavic origin and related to the Bulgarians"
[David H Levinson, Anthropologist, Encyclopaedia of World Cultures, p. 239]
@@Makedon9 "On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, WHO HAVE HAD NO HISTORY, need one."
Titchener, Frances B.; Moorton, Richard F. (1999). The eye expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman antiquity. Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 259. ISBN 978-0-520-21029-5.
@@Makedon9 "When the anthropologist Keith Brown visited Kruševo on the eve of the 21st century, he discovered that the local Aromanian dialect still has no way to distinguish "Macedonian" and "Bulgarian", and uses the designation Vrgari, i.e. "Bulgarians", for both ethnic groups."
(Chris Kostov, Contested Ethnic Identity: The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, 1900-1996, Peter Lang, 2010, ISBN 3034301960, p. 71.)
@@Makedon9 "The Macedonian population has the largest GENETIC DISTANCE against the Croatian population (0.2643), WHILE THE LOWEST AGAINST BULGARIAN POPULATION (0.0815) (Table 4).The neighbor-joining consensus tree constructed based on the results of the genetic distance analysis SHOWS THAT THE POPULATION OF THE MACEDONIAN ETHNIC ORIGIN HAS POSSIBLE HIGHEST SIMILARITY WITH THE BULGARIAN POPULATIONS, and not such dissimilarity with the cluster which consists Bosnian and Herzegovinian-Serbian-Croatian populations, while the Kosovo population create a separate group (Fig. 2)."
www.academia.edu/14205263/Genetic_data_for_17_Ychromosomal_STR_loci_in_Macedonians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21549657
Macedonians participated in the Olympic games. The games were strictly for Greeks. Thracians were not Greeks but they were wiped out by greek colonists. So Thrace became Greek in the same manner that North Italy became Roman.
Because the Persians took over Thrace and the Makedones took it back.
Where does it say that the macedonians competed in the Olympics?
@@signature7336 I will quote only one from Herodotus. King Alexander the I was stadion winner in the 80th olympiad. I can also quote more if you insist.
@@user-sc5iv2rp2t Ah yes, the king who HAD TO PROVE he was greek in order to compete. Please do quote other sources. And preferably some where ordinary everyday macedonians competed - not just kings.
@@signature7336 476bc unknown name wrestling from the town of Maroneia source papyrus oxyrhynchus 222, 476bc Theagenis from Thasos pancration same source, 408bc Polydamas pancration from Skotoussa source Eusebius. I can go down to the list.
Has this woman a PhD in ancient Hellenic history???
There's no serious debate on this topic!Ancient macedonians were greeks as 400 proffesors of ancient history wrote to their letter to Obama!As even the director of National history Institute of Skopje said!As numerous of prime ministers and presidents and ministers of Fyrom had already said!As Fyrom officially signed in Prespes agreement!As ancient authors said about the self-identification of ancient macedonians themselves!As what the rest of the ancient greeks believed and participated Olympic games with macedonians (who means to be only for greeks) As their language indicates that were greek dialect as all archaiological findings showed!
And of course nothing relation to slavs (inhabitans of Fyrom or North Macedonia)who appeared 1000 years at least after Alexander and Phillip!!!
Controversy sells, and the guy of this channel wants views.
Exactly!!! The Great Alexander and Philip are from Pella in only Greece and the first Macedonians are from Argos in the Peloponnese of Greece - all in the BC years. The fyroms (=vardars) are only from Eastern Europe in the AD years.
She's a far leftist humanities crackpot peddling her politics. She has no definition of ethnicity so invents one ad-hoc to match her politics. She's trying to hide her mistake of recognizing former Yugoslavians as "Macedonians" (along with many others)
@@andrewong2956 VARDAR e vo MAKEDONIJA.
ti... u Dunav.
@@tatjanavelkova5814 THE MOST ILITERATE B U L G A R I A N VMRO TROLL ! ! !
This is a question prompted by modern political expediencies. Modern "Macedonians" are slavs, bulgarians who appropriated the name(and history) from the Greeks in 1945, in Tito's time. To answer your question you need not to invite the professor but read Alexander's reply to the Persians and the Persian's perceptions of the Macedonians themselves. First, the Persians called the Macedonians Greeks wearing broad-brimmed hats (Yauna Takabara, in ancient Persian). Second, Alexander himself told the Persians "..you came to Macedonia and the REST of Greece...etc etc" THE REST OF GREECE. Now, what do you think these utterances mean? Lastly, we have fragments of the ancient Macedonian dialect, a form of North-West Greek, similar to that spoken in Thessaly and Epirus. I trust that these answer your question.
Coupled with the fact that by the mid 90's more than 95% or scholars considered the ancient Macedonians a northern Greek tribe
You guys keep saying that yet Many in modern Macedonia don’t have Slavic genetics. Most are the remnants of the ancient people that have always lived on those lands. If that entire region done a DNA test everyone would shot their mouths. Many have uploaded their results on CZcams.
@@TrooperDan_262 Modern Slavs in Skopje have DNA identical to Serbs and Bulgarians. This is because prior to 1944 most them ethnically identified as Bulgarians and to lessor degree Serbs. They were "Macedonian" in regional not ethnic sense.
[ N G L Hammond (1992) ;The Miracle that was Macedonia', p 206]
*_"As members of the Greek race and speakers of the Greek language, the Macedonians shared the ability to initiate ideas and create political forms"_*
Lie
[David H Levinson, Anthropologist/Ethnologist, Encyclopaedia of World Cultures , p. 239]
*_"It should be noted that there is NO CONNECTION between the ancient Macedonians of the time of Alexander the Great who were related to other Greek [Hellenic] tribes, and the modern so-called slav "Macedonians" of today of the Republic of North Macedonia who are of Slavic origin and related to the Bulgarians"_*
2
Please ask David what does Pella mean in Greek?
@@milansimonovic8267πέλλα: vessel for milking animals in ancient greek. Propably has sth to do with the topography or with the sheep herding in closeby areas
@@grtube5643 this just got way dumber
They are Greek. Same God same language the only difference is the macedonians didn't use the polis system of city-states they had a monarchy.
So Spartans weren't Greek? Because they had a Duarchy - two kings
@@kylewilliams8114 yes they had Kings but they still practice the polis. Sparta was a city States, Macedon was a kingdom with many cities. You can have a king and still have the polis system.
@@kennethknoppik5408 I understand what you're getting at, though I see the Sparta as a city, as well as a kingdom, considering the kind of dominance they had over large areas of the peninsula. But I know little about the Macedonian political structure and how integral the city state is to being classified as Greek.
Same gods? Wasn't Phillip's wife into a Dionysus cult that was very controversial among Greeks? In belief systems with multiple Gods, there is usually more liberty in which of those gods you revere, and more change between relative importance of those gods over time. Our image we have of the ancient Greek belief system is a simplification that actively ignores and smooths over regional and temporal differences for simplicity.
@@wouterdevlieger1002 No it wasn't controversial, ,any cities loved Dionysus, he was a Greek God
11+ minutes to explain why "this question isnt answerable by antiquity". Now we are talking human history. 🤪
"The latest archaeological findings HAVE CONFIRMED that Macedonia took its name from a tribe of tall, GREEK-speaking people, the MAKEDNOI".
Nigel Guy Wilson, Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece, Routledge, 2009, p.439:
Mak-edons , Edons -Thracian tribe, it also means s.th. related to the lands they are in etc.The Thraceans were more than 60 kins , in sources one can also find them as Bulgarians.
@@mariasmilyanova634 You are either trolling or you are simply brain-dead if you actually believe this crap you wrote just here. 😂 After the Albanians and the Slavopaeonians, now is the turn of the Bulgarians to actually claim Greek history as their own?! 😂I hadn't realize that Bulgarians also have inferiority complex towards the Greeks. I thought they were proud of their actual history. So basically you are telling us that the ancient Macedonians were Bulgarians!? 😂😂😂Thanks for providing me with plenty of laughter. Now read below and learn, cause you're obviously out of your depth
@@mariasmilyanova634 "Bulgar, also called Bulgarian, member of a people known in eastern European history during the Middle Ages. A branch of this people was one of the primary three ethnic ancestors of modern Bulgarians (the other two were Thracians and Slavs)."
www.britannica.com/topic/Bulgar
@@mariasmilyanova634 "Macedon was an Ancient GREEK polity. THE MACEDONIANS WERE A GREEK TRIBE. HISTORIOGRAPHY AND SCHOLARSHIP AGREE that Alexander the Great WAS GREEK ."
Hornblower 2008, pp. 55-58; Errington 1990, pp. 3-4; Fine 1983, pp. 607-08; Hall 2000, p. 64; Hammond 2001, p. 11; Jones 2001, p. 21; Osborne 2004, p. 127; Hammond 1989, pp. 12-13; Hammond 1993, p. 97; Starr 1991, pp. 260, 367; Toynbee 1981, p. 67; Worthington 2008, pp. 8, 219; Cawkwell 1978, p. 22; Perlman 1973, p. 78; Hamilton 1974, Chapter 2: The Macedonian Homeland, p. 23; Bryant 1996, p. 306; O'Brien 1994, p. 25.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#cite_note-Macedonians-282
"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify.”
John Bagnell Bury, “A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great”, 2nd ed.(1913)
"Not much need to be said about the Greekness of ancient Macedonia: it is undeniable."
Ian Worthington, "Philip II of Macedon", Yale University, 2008
"The latest archaeological findings HAVE CONFIRMED that Macedonia took its name from a tribe of tall, GREEK-speaking people, the MAKEDNOI".
Nigel Guy Wilson, Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece, Routledge, 2009, p.439:
"The ANCIENT MACEDONIANS WERE GREEKS.THEIR LANGUAGE WAS GREEK to judge by their personal names, and by the names of the months of their calendar."
George Cawkwell, Emeritus Fellow, University College Oxford
@@mariasmilyanova634 "The national name derives from the GREEK TERM Makedonía, related to the name of the region, named after the ancient Macedonians and their kingdom. It originates from the ancient GREEK adjective makednos, meaning "tall", which shares its roots with the adjective makrós, meaning the same."
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, on Perseus
N G L Hammond (1986) "A History of Greece to 332 BC" p. 651
*_"Greece and Macedon were AKIN IN BLOOD AND CULTURE"_*
akin is not the same though. the germans and brits are akin.
@@thatisme3thatisme38 Macedonians were and are of Doric Hellenes not the Ionian, Attic, Aeolian or Achaean Greeks.
HE WAS PAID BY GREECE...
@@thatisme3thatisme38 Germans and brits are NOT akin by blood and culture.
@@thatisme3thatisme38 Macedonians were Doric Greeks therefore they were not akin to Ionic Greeks.
How did the Former Yugoslav Republic of North Macedonia get its name???
Every body knows that the original ancient Kingdom of Macedonia of Alexander the Great is in northern Greece and is the northern Greek prefecture of Macedonia, so how did the the modern country called 'Republic of North Macedonia' (formerly Yugoslavia) get to be called Macedonia???
Well the former Yugoslav Republic of North Macedonia was in fact formally created in 1944 under Marshall Tito's government. The name "Macedonia" was never applied to that part of the map of Yugoslavia at any date prior to 1944. Tito had in mind a purpose in creating this state, Tito wanted to annex the northern Greek region of Macedonia and acquire the port of Thessaloniki, so Tito clandestinely invented the name "Macedonia" for that region which had never existed before - it was originally the 'Vardar Banovina' region of southern Serbia. Its population is 60% slavs related to Bulgarians/Serbians, 30% Albanians, and 10% Vlachs, Turks, Roma-Gypsies etc
Make sure you take your pills on time!
Because in 1922 there was a population swap betven Turks and Greece and Serbs from macedon were pushed north.
Thanks, but music intro too loud.
Sorry about that!
@@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 no sweat, but sound level of music at beginning and ending is loud. Thanks for this channel., it rocks.
Until the middle 70s indeed there was great uncertainty about the ancient Macedonian language and academics were about 50% - 50% divided about its Greekness.
After Hammonds and Borzas specific interest in ancient Macedonia and with Andronicus' Excavations in Vergina, by the 80s almost 70% of the academic community was leaning towards its Greekness.
In the same period and after further Archaeological discoveries, from the middle 90s onwards more than 95% of modern historians consider the Macedonians as a northern Greek race, meanwhile linguists talk of the "north western Greek color" of the ancient Macedonian idiom.
Indeed it has been stressed out that the Macedonian traditions, personal names and month names present strong Dorisms and undeniable Aeolisms
I have a question for Dr Kennedy. We're the ancient Macedonians Slavs???
Of course and they were Greeks.-
Bullshiit!! Did you hear dr Kennedy explanation?
@@johnbilchuris9728 They were Greeks goofy! This lady promotes Achilles being Black!!! 🤡🤣
They worshipped the same gods as the Greeks. Alexander's empire was Hellenistic, therefore pretty much Greek.
The statue in Athens of Alexander isn’t ironic because the Greeks aren’t divided nations (city-states, kingdoms) and today the similarities and difference of the past aren’t the same. There are other new differences.
And you have to take into account the views of the past as seen from then.
So in China they have statues of Ghenkis Khan?
If the Macedonians weren't Greek how come they spoke a dialect of Greek, had Greek personal names, Greek Royal names, Greek place names, worshipped Greek gods, Had Greek names for the months of the Calendar long before they came into contact with the other Greek tribes in the south of Greece.................. and then left a Greek legacy from Egypt to India.
The Macedonians were made fun of and called "Barbarians" by other Greeks for their rough Greek dialect, and the fact that they still had an anachronistic monarchical rule when all other Greek states had evolved into democratic Republics.
The Hellenodikai (Greek judges) indeed initially rejected the Macedonians from participating in the Olympic games because they were a monarchy. It was a political decision. However the Hellenodikai examined the Macedonians a second time based on Language, ancestral roots, and blood lineage, Religion and Culture, and declared that racially, the Macedonians were 100% Greeks.
To conclude therefore, the fact that the Macedonians were initially not considered bona fide Greeks was NOT a blood issue, but rather a mental/political attitude that the Greeks of the citizen states had because the Macedonians were a monarchy and not a Republic.
Thank you Nick and Dr. Kennedy for this interesting video. Just a few questions if I may though: (1) Dr. Kennedy said in her previous video on ancient Greece and Persia that Sparta was “socialist and communist” but in my study of Sparta, they were more oligarchic with some democratic elements in their constitution rather than totalitarian (or socialist/communist) (cf. Stephen Hodkinson). How are we to understand Sparta as closely to what it really was as possible? (2) Did Romans ever express their aspiration to Persia (esp. their bureaucratic government structure and their imperialist strategies, etc.)? I’m finding more and more similarities between the Roman Empire and the Archaemenid Empire. Thanks!
Sorry. Just found out Dr. Rees pretty much answered my first question. Please ignore that one if you’d like.
"historian" Kennedy is incompetent bigot trying to hide her mistake of recognizing former Yugoslvaians as "macedonian". .
A. She claims to speak for history then can report history in her own lifetime accurately .The former Yugoslvians own government officials used to assure them they weren't really to ancient Macedonian prior to Gruevski. the lying happened on her watch not some distance past to claim she didn't know.
B. While she claims it is vague if the founders of the Hellenistic period, spreaders of the Greek language, and participants of ancient Greek only Olympics were "real" Greeks.... she glossed over the 'minor" point there is academic consensus ancient Macedonians were not antihellenic Slavs from the former Yugoslavia. In otherwords, they, unambigiously aren't "ethnic" Macedonians as they claim. And those that call them "Macedonians"... all, unambiguously, liars.
Dr. Kennedy is a crackpot. She peddles fake versions of history under the veneer of "science"/. What sh'e's trying to do is to match her woke ideology to reality. Physicist Alan Sokal, a liberal with actual integrity, warned about a segement of leftists in the humanities abusing their academic credentials to peddle leftist ideology.
Sparta was most certainly not communist. Futo is just unprofessionally imposing here leftist ideology on the past by abusing analogy. (like she does here) She's for lack of a better term... a crackpot.
Wel dr Kennedy since you are so knowledgable about ancient history,pls explaine what the names Philip , Alexander , Olympia , Philotas , Amyntas , Ptolemy , Kleopatra ,Arsinoe mean and try to compare them with Zlatan , Svetlana ,Vladimir , Boris and other slavic names. If according to you speaking Greek , Having Greek names and worshiping the same gods is not enough to identify someone as Greek , and you thing that the slavic people of south former Yugoslavia have legitimate case to claim Macedonian heritage , then ,I am sorry , but you better change profession .
Especially during a time where globalisation was not a thing
3:50 Some ancient Athenians liked Alexander. In every place there were people who liked him and people who did not. Also this statue of Alexander was made many years ago, it was only displayed in public in 2019. As the video also suggests, some also liked Philip, Alexander's father. So Philip was "Greek enough" and Alexander was not? Also because of Alexander, the Attic Greek dialect was spread through Koine Greek that is mostly based on Attic. On the other hand, did Alexander even ever go to the area of modern Skopje, ie the ancient city Scupi that was in Dardania?
5:25 Alexander I was not turned away, some raised objections according to Herodotus. One has to bear in mind that Macedonia was under Persian during these years and one had to be suspicious... Herodotus mentions that occupation as well, and also how Alexander I was against this occupation... Also in all the versions of Greek mythological genealogy, the legendary Macedon was brother to Magnes, from whom the Magnetes took their name, and the latter were Greeks as well... By the way, the tribe of Hellenes were closer to Macedonia and Magnesia than it was to Attica and the Peloponnese. Also note what Posidippus, a Macedonian, wrote;
"There is but one Greece, though many Grecian cities.
When you employ a local word, what it is
is Attic; what we Greeks say though, is Greek.
Why be so much concerned with how you speak,
syllables, letters and the rest of it
that you make other folks dislike your wit?"
www.cambridge.org/core/books/galen-and-the-world-of-knowledge/galen-and-hippocratic-medicine-language-and-practice/CFA5DECC577C4C2CBA47720E9B22386A
5:40 They also made fun of other dialects, like the Elean that the video mentions later, which was called "the most barbaric" by some; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Elis#Eleans_as_barbarians . The question is, can one prove that the Attic dialect, for instance, was closer to the otherwise older Mycenaean? I do not think it was, although I have not "put it into numbers"...
6:00 "Asserts his Greekness [...] through religious rituals". Did not the Macedonians have the same deities with the other Greeks? Yes they did... They focused more on the Chthonic deities, but everyone else had them as well, even on as far as Crete... And the Macedonians did have the 12 gods too on the other hand..
6:37 "They keep Greeks and Macedonians distinct". The campaign against Persia was led by Macedonia, that is why... The various cities sent military units that were not mixed with others, so it was not just the Macedonians... Moreover, Macedonia at that time encompassed parts that were not Macedonian before Philip. These were Ionian (like Aristotle's city), or were with Athenians in the past (like the Bisaltians) etc.
7:35 "He sends the Greeks home". Not really, there were many Greeks who were not Macedonians; eg Lysimachus who was Thessalian, Nearchus who was Cretan and others (who all happened to be Greek though); en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadochi#Non-Macedonian_satraps_and_generals.
9:30 "What happened in between?" The Slavs came down and then the Thema of Macedonia was formed as a response to the Slavs, and this Thema (or "Theme") was around Constantinople (ie Thrace) which shows that the Macedonians from Macedonia Secunda (Salutaris) moved there to protect the capital from the Slavs (and others). Eversince, when "Macedonia" or "Macedonians" are referred to, the reference is about the Byzantine Theme of Macedonia. The Ottomans on the other hand did not have any administrative division called "Macedonia" or something of the like.
Too many mistakes (possibly more) in a 10 minutes video... Here are some actual hundreds of professors and scholars signing under that Macedonians were Greeks; macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
It would be good if the Greeks Athenians can explain why would king Philip and his son go to war if they were the same race people why would the Greeks fight against there own because they were two different races.
@@gockanikoloski4719 That is all around the place... You mention "races"... Well, European belong to the same race but have fought each other numerous times in the past... Also were not Athenians and Spartans of the same ethnic group but still fought each other? Yes they were...
@@gockanikoloski4719 Yeah that would be like Americans fighting a war against Americans and everyone knows that definitely never happened...
Think before you post.
Can you provide me with the source for the quote by Posidippus please?
This one: ".. There is but one Greece, though many Grecian cities .."
Thanks in advance! 👍
WHAT A BULL SHIT...
As a (North) Macedonian Slav from Skopje, I have a theory about these things. It's not really much related to Alexander but can explain the origins of the Slavic-speaking nation we call Slav Macedonians or just Macedonians. We already know the Ancient Macedonians were closely related with Greeks and espoused greek/hellenistic culture and were also closely related to other Paleo-Balkan peoples such as Illyrians, Paionians, Thracians and Phrygians, however my theory holds that in the late 5th-early 6th to the 7th century when Slavs and other tribes arrived the Hellenistic Macedonians were already partially romanized because of hundreds of years of Roman rule. The Slavs mass settled in the Balkans in significant numbers, and then subsequently slavianized and mixed with local populations which were romanized before and a few other tribes like the Bulgars (though they most likely assimilated themselves into the Slavic peoples) but that's a whole other story, anyways South Slavs (then known as Sklabenoi) adopted a Byzantine-Orthodox-Slav identity in the 9 to 11th centuries AD and a group of them, similar to the Bulgarian Slavs gradually became Macedonian Slavs over the years, but these Macedonian Slavs were also mixed in high amounts with Paleo-Balkan peoples (which were autochthonous to most of the Balkan peninsula including parts of Italy and Anatolia. However the Macedonian slavic speakers had a shared history and culture with Bulgaria which most of its population was genetically ALMOST similar to Paleo-Balkan and MENA peoples with TINY iranic and central/east asian admixture. Due to shared history and culture Macedonians were mostly labeled as Bulgarians until the late 19-early 20th centuries when stuff changed but thats another whole story. And if you look at ethnic Macedonians from North Macedonia's DNA results most of them show a very high Greek and South Italian & MENA percentage with a little or smaller East European/Slavic percentage. This is typical for Bulgarians, Albanians, Greeks and other Balkan peoples because Slavs weren't that much big in terms of population so they mixed with the more numerous and autochthonous population etc etc and the South Slavic/Sklabenoi people were born including the Macedonians which are part of the South Slavs. Alexander's people were Hellenistic culture in his time but later got partially romanized and Slavs mixed adopting Orthodoxy and Byzantine customs which created Macedonian Slavs and partially Bulgarians as we know them today.
That mean you are Greeks mixed with Slavs = SlavMacedonians
@@hellenicflags5716 Kinda true
that is basically it. the bloods are mixed thoughout...Greek/Latin speaking base with a slavic language. no big deal!
Well, this is more or less true.... No serious historian today believes that the locals were completely displaced by the slavs... The fact that your culture is now slavic and not paeonian propably means that slavs settled in your country in larger numbers than the locals, whereas in greece slavs that came were less so they were assimilated by greeks. All balkans have strong paleobalkan connections, with greeks ana albanians having the strongest.
If we define Greekness according common sense language, religion and culture then our only conclusion can be they were Hellenes. Maybe not liked or sometimes not seen as such be other Greeks as they where to Archaic Doric somewhat barbaric nevertheless still Greek ! No doubt about that
There are many cases where Greeks hated Greeks and went to war with Greeks or at least one I can think of so I don’t really know but maybe just most of the Greek world disliked them
Many Emperors of The Roman Empire visited Alexander’s the greats Resting site to honour him so I don’t necceserily think they hated Macedonians
What is indisputable about the ancient Macedonians is that they were an intrinsic part of the Greek speaking world who spread the Greek language and cultural broadly and who left the dominance of that language and culture in the eastern Mediterranean to the extent that for a period the centre of Hellenism was Alexandria in Egypt.
The supremacy of the Greek language and culture in the eastern Mediterranean was instrumental in the survival of both when they were confronted by the much more powerful Roman Empire which took on many aspects of Greek culture.
Dominant in the east as a result of Macedonian conquests, the Greek language and Greco-Roman culture was affirmed and expanded in the Eastern Roman, or so-called “Byzantine,” Empire which reigned for a millennium. When Constantinople fell to the Ottomans in 15th Century, it’s Greek-speaking populations and territories survived some four hundred years of occupation until the age of nationalism and the modern Greek state.
Put simply and clearly, Alexander and the ancient Macedonians are the keystone in the historical arch of the Greek-speaking world without which, for better or worse, modern Greece would not exist today which is why ancient Macedonia is precious to modern Greece.
As to the “ethnicity” of the ancient Macedonians, they could well have been Chinese Jews and it would not matter to the modern Greeks because they are treasured for what they did: preserved the distant roots that permitted the founding of the modern state and forged the links of the unbroken chain of the language which binds it to the identity of its people.
The Macedonians didn't speak Greek. During the Hellenistic era they spread the Greek language because they adopted Greek, not because their language was Greek; ancient Macedonian was unintelligible to both Dorians and Ionics.
@@Nick-hi9gx you miss the point. The ancient Macedonians may have originally spoken Chinese or Comanche and may have been Jewish. Their presence and achievement in history is that through Alexander’s empire they spread and confirmed the Greek language and culture preserving both through the ages leading up to the existence of the modern Greek state. No one could have done more for the preservation of the Greek language and culture and no one has. That is their singular value in history and in Greek identity
@@peterkirk5584 Jesus that is so stupid. The Romans did more for the preservation of Greek culture and language than the Macedonians
@@Nick-hi9gx
Yes, which is why Greeks today speak Latin.
In fact, you're getting a little closer. The rising Roman empire was confronted and greatly influenced by the Greek-speaking world of the eastern Mediterranean from Alexandria to Byzantium and beyond which was a result of the Hellenistic Age after the conquests of the Greek-speaking Macedonians. It was this Greek-speaking world that dominated the eastern Med after Alexander's conquest that turned the Latin-speaking Roman Empire of the East into the Greek-speaking "Byzantine" Empire with its capital in Constantinople where the scholarship of ancient Greek culture was preserved and the Greek language dominated later to survive under the Ottomans and to continue in an unbroken chain from the Mycenaeans till today. The Greek-speaking Macedonians as a result of Alexander's empire made Greek the Lingua Franca throughout the eastern Med which is why the New Testament is written in Greek which became the international language thanks to the conquest of the Greek-speaking Macedonians. You would find the history of the Hellenistic Age - the widely dispersed and international Greek-speaking world of the Mediterranean, as a result of Alexander's conquest and the later rule of his Generals, interesting. Even Cleopatra was a "Greek" of that world. From Wikipedia: "Cleopatra VII Philopator (Greek: Κλεοπάτρα Φιλοπάτωρ;[5] 69 BC - 10 August 30 BC) was Queen of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt from 51 to 30 BC, and its last active ruler.[note 5] A member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, she was a descendant of its founder Ptolemy I Soter, a Macedonian Greek general and companion of Alexander the Great.[note."
Indeed, as a result of Alexander's conquest and the empire of his generals, Alexandria in Egypt was for centuries the centre of the Greek-speaking world, the Greek language and Greek culture. The Library of Alexandria was said to contain the greatest collection of Greek manuscripts ever assembled. Until the Romans burned it down, of course.
Cheers,
@@carolmorrow4095 The Macedonians didn't speak Greek. Alexandria was never the center of the Greek-speaking world. Jesus, you don't even know what "lingua franca means". The Romans didn't burn down the Library, a fire started under Caesar that burned one wing, they got nearly all of the scrolls out. When the Muslims took over, they destroyed the defunct Library, as it had long-since been subsumed by the Serapeum, which had long since been ben largely destroyed.
You don't know history NEARLY as well as you believe you do.
Didn't Phillip say he was related to the Argive Pelasgus,
Yes prespa agreement article 7 affirms that ancient Macedonia is a Hellenic culture, history & heritage.
What is known about the ancient Macedonians?
1) They spoke a Greek dialect
2) They had Greek personal names
3) They had Greek Royal names
4) They had Greek place names (e.g Pella, Aegae, Thessaloniki, Amphipolis etc
5) They worshipped Greek gods
6) they proudly proclaimed that they were Greeks
7)They had Greek names for the months of the year
8) They participated in the Olympic games where only Greeks were allowed to participate
9) The cultural milieu of the Macedonians was Greek
10) The coins they minted in their millions was Greek
11) The Temples they built were Greek
12) The legacy they left from Egypt to India was Greek.
Alexander The Great's MOTHER was clearly Greek!!
The Royalty did. The people, not so much. They were Thracian, Illyrian and Greek mixed. No different than today. If you studied the Romanovs, you would learn that their native tongue was French, they spoke French in court, and the children could only speak French, couldn't even speak Russian. This is because they tried to appear more sophisticated and civilized, "shunning the barbaric tongue of the Slavs" - their own subjects. Something similar is happening with Macedonian royalty.
@@dt6822 "Because the Romanovs spoke French, the ancient Macedonians were not Greek". Really?
@@nicholaspapayiannakis3770 Ancient Macedonian royalty were Greek. The people were a mix of Thracians and Greeks and Illyrians. I am a classicist. A Grecophile. I love everything Greek. But that's what all the evidence shows. Please try to get along. I love the Slavic people too. You are better than this. Greeks are my favourite people until they start expressing extremist views about Macedonians or Gay people.
It's nice that you're a "Grecophile". I, on the other hand am a Macedonian. My family has been in Macedonia since time immemorial. We are Greeks. None of the evidence suggests otherwise regarding our ancestors. There is not a shred of evidence to the contrary. I find it concerning that until yesterday this was the main consensus in the west, until the geopolitics made it favorable for westerners to say otherwise. @dt6822
[Dr, Michael Scott, Cambridge University, from his BBC Documentary, "Who were the Greeks?"]
*_"The Question of who were the Greeks cannot be answered unless we consider two of the most famous Greeks of all, the father and son from Northern Greece, King Philip of Macedon and his son Alexander the great"_*
you can pick as many quotes to say the opposite. modern day interpretations.
Dr michel Grekoplis Pileum
~The question who the Ancient Greeks were can only be told by traditions culture language and dna.
All Ancient greek traditions are much more similar to modern day Albania.For example the Plis or ancient greek pileum, pilos is only worn by albanians today.
The language can explain many Gods and Names. Greek language is more like the ancient greek one.But only the writing the pronouncing of the words has completely changed.But the only thing that brings clearness in those toughts is dna.Greeks have very high asian and african percentages where albanians got 90% greek.Considering average greek skin tone the tests are accurate
Still some confusion inthe comments section, According to all historians ancient Macedonia (Northern Greece) was a Hellenic Kingdom. Greece was made up of Hellenic tribal Kingdoms and citizen states. The Macedonians were a northern Greek tribe of Hellenic stock. So Alexander the Great was obviously of Greek stock himself, from his father a Macedonian Greek and his mother Olympias a Mollossian (Epirote) Greek.
Again what does Pella mean in Greek?
technically, greece did not excist in the antiquity as a united national state or even as a united people. in antoquity there was only empires, regions or polis (citystates). so athenians were atheninans, spartans were spartans or Laconians, and so forth, and macedonians were macedonians. nationalism only mirrors nationalist thought created after the age of the exploration and colonialism.
Of course there wasnt a country named Greece or Hellas in those times but still Greeks had a very coplex idea of a common ancestry between them. A stricking example of this is in Aeschylus's Persians the part that says
Ὦ παῖδες Ἑλλήνων, ἴτε,
ἐλευθεροῦτε πατρίδ᾽, ἐλευθεροῦτε δὲ
παῖδας, γυναῖκας, θεῶν τε πατρῴων ἕδη,
θήκας τε προγόνων· νῦν ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀγών
Which translates to “On, you men of Hellas! Free your native land. Free your children, your wives, the temples of your fathers' gods, and the tombs of your ancestors. Now you are fighting for all you have.”
I think it resembles how in the early united states history americans identified more with their states rather than their coutnry
"The establishment of these Panhellenic sites, which yet remained exclusively HELLENIC, was a very important element in the growth and self-consciousness of HELLENIC NATIONALISM; it was uniquely decisive in breaking down enmity between tribes, and remained the most powerful obstacle to fragmentation into mutually hostile poleis."
Burckhardt, Jacob (1999) [1872]. The Greeks and Greek Civilization. New York: St. Martin's Press. ISBN 978-0-312-24447-7., p. 168
"The kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common, and the likeness of our way of life."
Herodotus, 8.144.2
@@vangelisskia214 Roman you are lost in translation...
@@janeza382 "FOUR THOUSAND YEARS OF GREEK HISTORY have produced four Greek heritages, each of which has had an effect on the life of the Greeks in later stages of their history. The Hellenic Greeks received a heritage from the Mycenean Greeks, the Byzantine Greeks received on from the Hellenic Greeks, the Modern Greeks have received one heritage from the Byzantines and a second from the Hellenes.”
The Greeks and their Heritage, A.J Toynbee, 1st Korais Professor of Greek Studies
[David H Levinson, Anthropologist/ethnologist. Encyclopaedia of World Cultures, p. 239]
*_"It should be noted that there is NO CONNECTION between the ancient Macedonians of the time of Alexander the Great, (from Northern Greece) who were related to other Greek /Hellenic tribes, and the modern so-called slav-Macedonians of today, (of the modern country Republic of North Macedonia), who are of SLavic origin and related to the Bulgarians"_*
Of course they were Greeks. Same language, same God's ,same culture and architecture. Macedonians wasn't the only ones that had monarchy. Spartans had too for example. It is the reason why the period after Alexander the Great is called Hellenistic.
They were Hellenes , not Greeks, the Hellenas is different from the Graekos.
@@maniacgr2617 Its the exact same thing. Greek is just the English translation.
@@Jovan_Jarkarane No Greek is an exonym imposed on Hellenes by western powers. They baptized the whole population of Hellas as Greek. The Greek is the south Italians and is different from the Hellenas(native inhabitant of Hellenic Peninsula)
@@maniacgr2617 Τι λες ρε;;; Η λέξη Greek βγαίνει από το το Λατινική λέξη Greace και σημαίνει τα εδάφη των Ελλήνων στα λατινικά. Έτσι φώναζαν οι Ρωμαίοι τους ανθρώπους που ζούσαν στον ελλαδικό χώρο. Το Greek είναι το αγγλικό version. Hellenes δηλαδή Έλληνες είναι πως αποκαλούμε εμείς οι Έλληνες τον εαυτό μας.
@@Jovan_Jarkarane No, Greeks are those who spoke a version of Hellenica, and interacted with the westerners. These were the Graekanoi of south Italy. The Hellenas is different to the Graekos. Even in Mythology.
Ancient macedonians greeks or not have nothing to do with modern day "macedonians" modern day macedonians are Bulgarians who speak Bulgaro/Serbian Language.
They have everything to do with modern day Macedonians, and also bulgarians have everything to do with bulgar tribes of asia and khan asparukh. The bulgarians that are not from turkic-mongol origin are Macedonians and mainly live in Pirin region of Macedonia and other parts of bulgaria. As for the language and script its original Macedonian and was passed on to the slavs by Cyrill and Methodius and their disciples. So stop the filthy propaganda against macedonians!
@@puppetmasterk2 Are you drunk? Seriously, are you people are taught this shite?
@@puppetmasterk2 they are slavs aka not indigenous in the balkans end of story 🇲🇰🎪🇲🇰🎪🇲🇰
MACEDONIANS 25 CENTURIES from FILIP KING ON MAKEDONIJA.
germans make Blgaria before 140 years.
@@puppetmasterk2 Ancient Macedonians were a self-identifying Greek people not Slavs .Stop with the lying Skopian fascist.
When Rome conquered Greece, the Romans wanted to participate in the Olympic Games but the Greeks did not let them and created other games for foreigners because only Greeks could participate. The Macedonians could participate in the Olympic Games. This is the best evidence that the Macedonians were Greeks. Of course there are many more like for example when the Macedonian king Alexander (not the famous one) named himself as Greek in his speech to Athenians and Spartans and the other Greeks when they were fighting against Persia. Nobody interacted to say that they weren’t Greek. Whoever reads history will understand all these unless if that person doesn’t want to. Makedonians are Greek like athenians Spartans korithians and all the other Greeks
Yep, and the famous great Macedonian king Alexander is from Pella in Greece only, so that gives him Greek heritage and identity. That's the most convincing evidence.
hahaha in the 90s and 80s it was common knowlwedge that Macedonians were barbarians and alexander had to prove to be part of the olympics.. now the greeks have spun a new version of shit malaka story saying they were allowed to be part of it with arms wide open.. ahh the make believe of misinformation and then the next generation just eats it up because it is on the net hahaha
You mean when the Romans conquered the Macedonians ?
A lot of Roman historians speak about these Macedonian people, the Greeks are not mentioned that much as most of them escape all the way to the south.
@@KirinDigitalArt correct
If that's the best evidence then by your logic Macedonians were not Greek in early 400s BC when Alexander I Philhellene of Macedon was not allowed to participate in the Olympic Games until he proved his family originates from Argos rather than Macedonia so they let him in. Meaning Macedonians weren't allowed, at that point, and then suddenly one day they became greek whenever they began to be allowed. There is better evidence, like shared culture and gods and similarity of language, that you can use for saying they were Greek.
In reality the debate doesn't matter, the states on the edges of the Greek world naturally had more similarities with their neighbours (Illyrians, Thracians, Anatolians) than the ones in the heart. It's a gradient and the definition of "Greek" is loose and changed over time as did Macedonian culture, including for political reasons (if you liked Phillip in 335 BC he was Greek, if you were Demosthenes he wasn't). The people who currently live in Macedonia region (divided by multiple borders) have the ancient Macedonians as part of their heritage more than anyone (it may be controversial to say but northern Greece and southern N Macedonia are genetically indistinguishable and both match ancient paleo-balkan dna samples from the region so they can all say they're descendants of Macedon)
Did you not watch the video? The answer is not clear, and depends on what period
[Richard Stoneman, 'Alexander the Great, Routledge, 1997, pp. 11-12]
*_"The Macedonians then were racially Greek, the relation might not be that of British and and Scots as of Germans and Austrians, but in the case of Macedon, it was the smaller partner which effected the 'Anschluss'"_*
The question really is how Historians define 'Greek'. Historians define Greek as the people that evolved from the Mycenaean civilisation. The Macedonians though did not evolve from the Myceanean civilisation in southern Greece because they were isolated in northern Greece so they were cut off from events in the south of Greece. Historian Ulrich Wilcken puts it nicely
*_"Our conviction is strengthened that they [Macedonians] were a Greek race and akin to the Dorians. Having stayed behind in the extreme north [of Greece] they were unable to participate in the progressive civilisation of the tribes which were further south, and so when in the time of the Persian wars they emerged on the horizon of the other Greeks, they "appeared" to them as "non-Greeks""_*
In other words the controversy exists because the Macedonians came in rather late into the Greek world, unlike the Minoans. But historians point out that Macedonians were racally the same as other Greeks, i.e they were of Greek stock
macedonians descented from argos, peloponesse wtf are you talking about
@@thepalegod8150 No, Argos (Orestikon) in the Pindus region of north western Greece.
@@JapanMonAmourTheJapanHouse ah ok now i can safely assume that youre trolling
have a good day troll
From Argos in the Peloponnese came their royal family
Macedonians were dorian greeks
It's all a matter of crossed-perceptions and self-ascriptive ethnic identity. Herodotus, after the Persian wars (in other words : when Athens established hegemony on the Aegan versus the Persians) defines hellinicity (what it means to be a Greek) (8.144) : are Hellens those who share :
- common blood {{which refers to stemma, or what you could call fictive ethnic genealogical identity ; translations often use the word "race" to refer to what the Ancient called genos, but it should be pointed out that blood has nothing to do with genetic filiation in ancient greek litterature, just, as already said, it refers to a fictive ancestral identity, which is by the way the definition of the modern and scientific word "ethnicity" ; as for Makedonians, at least the elites (Argead dynasty), they claimed to descend from Herakles, but if they themselves believed it or not, is a question historians can't answer}}
- common speak {{here, linguists have established that a Ionian native of, say, Ephesus, could communicate better with a Dorian of Sybaris than with another Ionian of Chalcis ; what Herodotus means by common speak, is, in the athenian hegemony perspective, those who speak a greek dialect as opposed to those who speak a radically different language, like the Persians, typical "barbarians" }}
- common shrines, temples, rites and gods {{so, no need to develop here, the Makedonians checked this criteria}}
- and common customs
This last point is the tricky one, as the herodotian - athenian definition of hellenicity of the fifth century, in short, says that the Greece of the poleis (plurial of polis) = civilized Greece, as opposed to the Greece of the ethnè (plurial of ethnos, see definition). The latter refers to Greeks that live north and west of Delphi : Etolians, Epirus Molossians, Makedonians. Makedonia was a kingdom (indeed, there were also a dynastic rule in poleis like Sparta or in Sicily or plenty others), but organized according to the ethnos model, not the polis one (according to Pierre Cabanes, for geographical determinism reasons). The Greece of the ethnè is characterized by wildlife (lions), piracy rather than naval trade, armed men and women, nomadic livestock farming vs sedentary agriculture, women are socialy equal to men (as sources say), etc. . Then it's all about topoi.
In any way, Makedonians, before Philip II's reign, were probably what you could call semi-Greeks. But, as you would have understood by now, it's all a matter of crossed-perception. What does it mean to be a Hellen ? Who says so ? What for ? Is it in the first place a relevant question ?
Last notice. According to Jonathan Hall (2002), Olympia was where the notion of hellenicity/greekness first arose in the sixth century bce before the persian wars and the modification of the definition of greekness under athenian prism. Herodotus mentions that c.504 Alexander the I of Makedonia was admitted to participate to the Olympic games, proving his greekness by the means of his fictive lineage claims. Alexander was vassal to the Persians indeed, but as soon as they had lost their power in Greece, he turned against them and regained his autonomy. Before Plataea, he is sent by the Persians to the Athenians as an ambassador, on grounds that he is a friend and a xenos (hospitality aristocratic links) to the Athenians.
It's only because of sheer political factors that, from the second half of the 4th century bce, with Demosthenes ascendancy over Athenian politics, that Makedonians were marked as "neither greeks, neither barbarians" (rhetorical schemes from an expert orator). See for example Isocrates (who wrote letters to Philipp and pleaded for Makedonia hegemony over Greece, as opposed to Demosthenes' thesis), for whom hellenicity is first and foremost a matter of paideia (culture, education) : anyone can become Greek, the blood criteria is now irrelevant, and so the Makedonians are perfect Greeks in this new perspective.
My opinion is that "identity" is a concept one should never use when doing history, and social sciences by extension
to the producers: Something you do not understand on the issue or you make stupid videos to have visits..Absolutely idiot title and idiot video with irrelevant two different questions. First of all officially there is not existing Macedonian ethnicity never in history. So with term Macedonian we can found greeks bulgarians albanians and all the nationalities of region. People of COUNTRY north Macedonia are officially record in their passports as "citizens of north Macedonia" because is a multiethnic country. Secondly ancient Macedonians belong to the Hellenistic Greek world. Was a proudly greek tribe and this is historical fact. Of course the differences between greek city states needs hours of explain . For the end eliminations of some slavic people of northern macedonia about macedonian origin there are absolutely funny because is record in history that they come to Macedonian area 900 years after Alexander and the real greek macedonias😂....
Well the skopjes are Vardars in Vardarska which is a Greek region called Paeonia.
The first macedonias rose from Argos in the Peloponnese of Greece,
King Karanos of Greece created the Macedonia state in 808BC
And Alexander is from Pella in Greece Only.
@@andrewong2956 srbi ukrali Vardarska Makedonija. dogovor 1913 :
Srbija na MAKEDONIJA vrak'a Vardarska Makedonija .
@@tatjanavelkova5814 F Y R O M UKRAO JUZNA SERBIJA . V A R D A R S K A , ILITERATE B U L G A R I A N TROLL ! ! !
Interview a better source
How about Cleopatra, was she Macedonian Greek since she descended from Ptolemy ? Also Alexander the Great, why was he often referred to as Macedonian Greek? By Amelia
for sure they were not slavs living in ancient Paeonia!
Modern Macedonia has reached a naming agreement with Greece, so that they can be included in the EU and NATO. Their official name is now The Republic of North Macedonia.
Yes, and in their ‘prespra agreement’ - Article 7, Section 2 & 4, explain that North Macedonia acknowledges that ‘Macedonia’ in the Ancient context part of Hellenic civilization and Greece’s history; and agrees that they (North Macedonia) have a history and culture that is different from the ancient one.
Yeah the only way they succeeded in the changing of the name Republic of Macedonia was to install a puppet like Zaev,Pendaroski,Dimitroski NATO AND EU will do enything for there own course.
NOT THE MACEDONIANS, ONLY THE GOVERNMENT ESTABLISHED BY USA..
As you can clearly see from the historical gibberish they are spreading on this thread trying to link themselves to ancient Macedonians. the former Yugoslavians continue to abuse the name... as Greeks warned would happen if they were ridiculously recognized as "Macedonia"
You have to remember that Greeks identified with their polis, not a nation-state, people 100 miles away were considered foreigners, but still Greeks. I believe most ancient Greeks considered Macedonians Greeks, if somewhat rustic ones. You are missing the main point, though, it’s that the people of the former Yugoslavia aren’t Greek in any way, they came to the area north of Greece thousands of years later and maintained there original Slavic culture, language, etc. There is nothing Greek or ancient Macedonian about them, they are just trying to co-opt the glory of ancient Greece, like many before them, notably the Nazis.
good point
By the way you need 70 ways to look beautiful. 7 not enough.
Otto Friedrich Ludwig von Bayern first Greek king of first united Greek kingdom ever in history of humankind and happens to be some Otto yes yes that sounds very Greek 🤣😂 look at the map of Greek kingdom 1832 how big was it as well you probably never heard about the genocide over Macedonians in Northern part of today Greece massive exodus of Macedonians as well population swap where Turks go in Turkey Greeks and Vlachs from Turkey inhabited Northern Greece which they later call it "Macedonia" but don't trust me there are many witnesses who now live in Canada America Australia etc and there's documentaries filming them saying how they escaped massive genocide in previous century by the Greek army....
🤺☦🇷🇺That is correct. The mainland Greeks (Hellas/Elisha) and the other Greek nations always fought each other for control. Alexander united them all later. Again, the fat lady who talks idiotic false narratives and nonsense...🤦♂️Of course the ancient Macedonians were Greek - one of the 4 distinct races of Greeks (Kittim/Achaeans), and that bullshit myth that he was an outsider conquerer is total bs! Greeks don't look at him that way - they are proud of him, as a Macedonian Greek who made the Greek nation into an empire wtf🤦♂️😅Only about half a quarter of today's Macedonians are the descendants of the ancient ones, defined by the Greek haplogroup J2b. The Greeks are on the right here
Or modern Greeks trying to coopt Cypro-Minoan civilization.
is 2+2=4?
Maybe the question can be turned around. Instead of asking were the ancient Macedonians are Greek, how about if the question: Are the people of the Republic of North Macedonia the same as or decendents of the anciet Macedonians?
Of course not, they are Bulgarians, Serbs and Albanians.
"As members of the Greek race and speakers of the Greek language, the Macedonians shared the ability to initiate ideas and create political forms"
N G L Hammond (1992), 'The Miracle that was Macedonia', p 206
"We must also remember that Philip and Alexander were Greeks, descended from Heracles, they wished to be recognized by Greeks as benefactors of the Greeks, even as Heracles had been"
N G L Hammond (1989), 'Alexander the Great' p. 257
"The latest archaeological findings HAVE CONFIRMED that Macedonia took its name from a tribe of tall, GREEK-speaking people, the MAKEDNOI"
Nigel Guy Wilson, Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece, Routledge, 2009, p.439:
"The ANCIENT MACEDONIANS WERE GREEKS, THEIR LANGUAGE WAS GREEK to judge by their personal names, and by the names of the months of their calendar"
George Cawkwell, Emeritus Fellow, University College Oxford
They didn't had language so they were speaking Greek. Are then the Ukrainian's Russian's they speak both russian
@@lukaspirov9580 "The NATIVE SPOKEN LANGUAGE OF THE MACEDONIANS WAS A DIALECT OF GREEK and that in the roughly 6,300 Macedonian-period inscriptions discovered by archaeologists about 99% were written in the GREEK LANGUAGE, USING THE GREEK ALPHABET".
Anson 2010, p. 17, n. 57, n. 58.Hatzopoulos 2011a, p. 44; Woodard 2010, p. 9; see also Austin 2006, p. 4 for further details. Anson, Edward M. (2010). "Why Study Ancient Macedonia and What This Companion is About". In Roisman, Joseph; Worthington, Ian (eds.). A Companion to Ancient Macedonia. Oxford, Chichester, & Malden: Wiley-Blackwell.
@@lukaspirov9580 "This (i.e. Pella curse tablet) has been judged to be the most important ancient testimony to substantiate that MACEDONIAN WAS A north-western GREEK and mainly a DORIC DIALECT".
Roisman, Worthington, 2010, "A Companion to Ancient Macedonia", Chapter 5: Johannes Engels, "Macedonians and Greeks", p. 95:
@@lukaspirov9580 "Macedon was an Ancient GREEK polity. THE MACEDONIANS WERE A GREEK TRIBE. HISTORIOGRAPHY AND SCHOLARSHIP AGREE that Alexander the Great WAS GREEK ."
Hornblower 2008, pp. 55-58;
Errington 1990, pp. 3-4;
Fine 1983, pp. 607-08;
Hall 2000, p. 64;
Hammond 2001, p. 11;
Jones 2001, p. 21;
Osborne 2004, p. 127;
Hammond 1989, pp. 12-13;
Hammond 1993, p. 97;
Starr 1991, pp. 260, 367;
Toynbee 1981, p. 67;
Worthington 2008, pp. 8, 219;
Cawkwell 1978, p. 22;
Perlman 1973, p. 78;
Hamilton 1974, Chapter 2: The Macedonian Homeland, p. 23;
Bryant 1996, p. 306;
O'Brien 1994, p. 25.
wiki/Alexander_the_Great#cite_note-Macedonians-282
Well Herodot didn't count Macedonia
As Greek you also heard that.
The ancient Macedonians were one of the 230 tribes, sub-tribes, palaces and families of the Greek-Pelasgian world. All the tribes spoke the same language with natural idioms. After the collapse of civilization in the Bronze Age, some areas and kingdoms were alienated. Since then, the Greek language has been formed in about 200 dialects. The most famous of the dialects are Ionian, Attic, Doric, Aeolian, Cypriot, Arcadian, Aetolian, Acarnaic, Macedonian, Lokrian, etc. Gradually the Greek tribes began to develop and communicate again. From the 9th BC century we know exactly the history of the Macedonians which is purely Greek with the first king Karanos. The Hellenism of the Macedonians began to be challenged by the Slavs in 1945 for purely political and expansive reasons. The theft of the Greekness of Macedonia is a serious crime against HUMANITY and the Slavs should be held accountable and condemned by all cultural institutions for their crimes.Plato believed that crime was the result of poor education. He believed that the penalties for the crimes should be determined according to the degree of responsibility of the accused. Aristotle defined crime as an act of free will, instigated by lust. Punishments for crimes must be designed to prevent other, future crimes.
Makedonians were never Pelasgians.
Makedonians spoke primitive Greek, closer to Late Proto Indo-European, and closer to Brygian,
Which means that first who spoke Helenick language were the Makedonians,
Makedonians starts were Myceneans stop, mt Olymp.
Makedonians belong to Hellenic they are Selloi, not to the Greek Graikoi, as Aristotle describes the Priest of Zeus,
Hesychios of Alexandreia wrote their dialect/language,
Makedonian and NW dialects are the mother language of all Greeks.
Myceneans genetically as revealed by Lazarides paper are genetically closer to Minoans.
Makedonians are closer to LPIEans
Georgiev the great linguist gives the creation of Greco-Brygian at lake Lychnitis, today Ohrid
southern of lake is early Makedonian who evolved to Mycenean and Greek,
West of lake is early Brygian or Phrygian, East of lake is Mygdonian (outer Brygian)
Pelasgians according Thoukidides spoke Thyrrenian, which is probably a cycladetic or Minoan language,
Pelasgians must be the pre-Doric populations, the non IE speakers of Mycenae.
Don't mix Pelagonia with Pelasgia,
Pelasgos means white like Pelargos, Like Pelekanos, like Pelekas (white river), like Pelekys (white axe=non war axe)
Makedonians from ancient times were black, red, and yellow-gray
ancient macedonians spoke their own language.it was a mix of languages that wasnt rly close to greek.closer to illyrian
@@skylol4908 Hesychios of Alexandreia,
wrote Lexicon of Makedonian language,
Find out what Makedonian spoke,
instead of spread bullshit
@@skylol4908 Do you know any Illyrian word? Lol, there isn't! Ancient Macedonians and today's were and is firstly Greeks, but you know it. Yours propaganda is so bad, the all planet laughing with you.
@@nikdegdelyian1834 You and Georgiev saying nonsense. You don't know Greek language, geography and history so im laughing with you, sory, LOL.
Overall nicely done :)
Funny how the skopjeans always get ratio'd in the comment section and it isn't even close.
Of course they are.
"Alexander the Great was predominantly Greek and definitely NOT an ancestor of contemporary slavs of the Republic of North Macedonia. The latest research shows very clearly yet again that that the Macedonians in the time of Alexander were closely related to the contemporary Greeks" [Alfred Wieczorek, Head of the Reiss-Engelhorn Museums of Manheim in an interview with the German Press Agency DPA].
North Macesonia is brainwashed Bulgaria without any conection to Alexander The Great whatsoever
Predominantly ?
There are no more Slavs in Macedonia then there are in Greece though. Us Macedonians are indigenous to the region. You can’t pull that bulls#%t anymore.
So- I have a suggestion. Why don’t you find people and people whose ancestors fled Agean Macedonia and ask them WHY they left the region? This should clarify your history.
I thought it was just me that was confused about this, glad to know I'm not alone.
Honestly, i am disappointed to realize Dr. Kennedy has a rather shallow grasp on the ancient Greek psyche and world views. Obviously, as long as she can keep making a career by using Greek cultural heritage, she does not mind causing insult to those who actually do know Greek history. An analysis as simplistic and deliberately selective as this, can only lead to confusion and misunderstandings. Please stick to teaching Greek drama or projecting modern racial theories on totally irrelevant ancient contexts and leave political analysis of the past to actual experts on the field. As for the channel in general, i do applaud the bravery involved in discussing this issue, though i fear this could really open the Pandora's box.
Greeks stop trolling !
🇲🇰🎪🇲🇰🎪🇲🇰🎪🇲🇰🎪
@Epirus_COM SKOPJE TOWN IN MAKEDONIJA.
you in rock.
Anti-Greek bigots stop trolling. it's not the fault of Greeks geocidal bigots like you lied through your teeth by trying to ethnic engineer Slavs into "Macedonians"