Bayonetta and the Psychology of Dodges
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- čas přidán 13. 09. 2024
- Bayonetta is one of the most over-the-top adrenaline rushes of a game ever! But if you ask me, its most interesting mechanic isn't an offensive one... but a defensive one.
Intentionally or not, Bayonetta (and another historically important contemporary) ask an important question: How can the parts where a character is NOT dealing damage be as empowering as the parts where they are?
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Games Discussed:
Bayonetta (2009) / Platforms: Playstation 3, Xbox 360, Wii U, Nintendo Switch, Playstation 4, Xbox One, PC (Windows) / Developer: PlatinumGames / Publisher: Sega / Directed by Hideki Kamiya / Genre: Action, Character-Action, Action-Adventure, Cinematic, Beat 'em Up, Story-Heavy, Camp, Fantasy
Demon's Souls (2009) / Platform: Playstation 3 / Developer: FromSoftware / Publisher Sony Computer Entertainment / Directed by Hidetaka Miyazaki / Genre: Action RPG, Role-Plating Game, Soulslike, Horror, Dark Fantasy
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Games Referenced:
Vanquish (2010) / Platforms: Playstation 3, Xbox 360, Playstation 4, Xbox One, PC (Windows) / Developer: PlatinumGames / Publisher: Sega / Directed by Shinji Mikami / Genre: Third-Person Shooter, Action, Science Fiction
Dark Souls (2011) / Platforms: Playstation 3, Xbox 360, Playstation 4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, PC (Windows) / Developer: FromSoftware / Publisher: Namco Bandai Games / Genre: Action RPG, Role-Playing Game, Soulslike
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (2013) / Platforms: Playstation 3, Xbox 360, PC (Windows) / Developer: PlatinumGames / Publisher: Konami / Directed by Kenji Saito / Genre: Action, Action-Adventure, Character Action, Story-Heavy
The Wonderful 101 (2013) / Platform: Wii U / Developer: PlatinumGames / Publisher: Nintendo / Directed by Hideki Kamiya / Genre: Action-Adventure, Superhero, Experimental
Dark Souls II (2014) / Platforms: Playstation 3, Xbox 360, Playstation 4, Xbox One, PC (Windows) / Developer: FromSoftware / Publisher: Namco Bandai Games / Genre: Action RPG, Role-Playing Game, Soulslike
Dark Souls III (2016) / Platforms: Playstation 4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, PC (Windows) / Developer: FromSoftware / Publisher: Namco Bandai Games / Genre: Action RPG, Role-Playing Game, Soulslike
NieR: Automata (2017) / Platforms: Playstation 4, Xbox One, Nintendo Switch, PC (Windows) / Developer: PlatinumGames / Publisher: Square Enix / Directed by Yoko Taro / Genre: Action RPG, Character Action, Action Advenure, Role-Playing Game
Astral Chain (2019) / Platform: Nintendo Switch / Developer: PlatinumGames / Publisher: Nintendo / Genre: Action-Adventure, Hack and Slash, Science Fiction, Cyberpunk, Anime
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Topics Discussed:
Psychology, Game Design, Video Game Design, Dodge Roll, Game Mechanic Deep Dive, Operant Conditioning, Behavior Modification, Reinforcement vs Punishment, Combat Design, Style, Style over substance, gymnastics, flip, witch time, advantages, minmax, difficulty, comparison, video essay, short video essay, soundtrack, video game soundtrack, ost, games, video games, game trailer, retro games, retro gaming, 2009, witches, science of games, bayonetta iceberg, explained, ending explained, witch, horror, dark fantasy, action games, gameplay examples, dance, dancing, dance into danger
I think what truly makes Witch Time and high-risk, high reward gameplay stand out so much is the dodge offset mechanic. Once you master it, it NEVER feels like you're compromising offense for defense, but rather weaving together both offense and defense to create an even stronger damage output. It's really stellar
There's a 2023 game called Clash: Artifacts of Chaos that mixed the offensive with the evasive options in a fun way.
You can dodge any of four directions: Fourwards, backwards and sideways. But if you press attack really quickly after inputting the dodge, you'll do a special directional attack.
Mix this with the game having different martial arts styles you can find and switch between, and every of these Stances having unique animation movesets. Some attacks hit multiple times, some keep a lower profile, some are zig-zaggy, some still keep you moving in a direction, some return you to your original position, etc.
It has a deliberate Animation Cancel mechanic too: if you input a new (non-combo string) move the moment your previous attack hits the enemy, then that new move's animation comes out immediately.
Cool game with fantastic presentation and good story. Can warmly recommend.
@@jurtheorc8117 I have never seen a glimpse or heard of this game until now. Thanks a lot for mentioning it!
@@FireStarJutsu Thank you for this reply! I'm always really glad to see people discovering games like Clash: AoC and delighted that it seems interesting to you. It's a prequel to the Zeno Clash series which were first-person brawlers/beat-em-ups.
Really unique, weird, bizarre and colorful monster world.
If i may ask, what's some first impressions of Clash: AoC now that you've learnt of it? I'm curious.
@@jurtheorc8117 Outside of it resembling GOW 2018 in the presentation, the gameplay reminded my of 2006's God Hand, which I really enjoy the gameplay of.
I haven't seen a lot of games doing the same style, of a behind the shoulder camera beat em' up, so my curiosity was immediately intrigued when I saw the gameplay.
The artstyle is unique and I know people enjoy the very bizarre feeling aesthetic, it's not my cup of tea, but that doesn't really retract me from the enjoying the game, as I'm pretty flexible when playing games.
Though I still do not know how the game plays or feels. Only trying it will actually tell me.
@@FireStarJutsu Others before you have made such conclusions too, yet a much smaller audience knows of God Hand than God of War. Sweet to see a fan of that game here! You're not Alexander but you know your fights.
Yes, to a degree it has move customization like God Hand, but to a much lighter degree. Even still, with three Specials and two Stances to switch between (even mid-combo), one gets access to around twenty moves for Pseudo.
There's a fun thing going on with the enemies, thanks to the setting: Very few characters really die. There's a group of a dozen or so Mercenaries on your tail through the entire game, all unique from one another with their own movesets. No duplicates.
(though the wildlife and Traveling Players *can* get multiple of a same creature in a fight).
Enemies on average appear in groups of three, but anywhere between only one and very rarely as much as five can appear too.
And there's some hidden Nighttime bosses too. They're tougher variants of the Daytime bosses throughout the story.
Fair enough on not feeling the aestethic of Zenozoik as much, yet glad that you find yourself interested in it regardless!
Game's not as punishingly difficult as God Hand, i'll tell you that. Or as flamboyantly ludicrous. I hope that the story, atmosphere and music will be to your interest because those are other big strengths of the game.
Hope the game will feel good whenever you may get to try it. Wish you a lot of fun in Zenozoik!
You may be interested to know that there's another game in development by a dev that stated God Hand as an inspiration. It's called Immortal: And the Death that Follows. Hindu Mythology-inspired 2D roguelike beat-em-up.
The God Hand inspirations to my understanding arise in the form of building out your kit of offensive options in different ways with each run, but *also* through the adjustable difficulty.
From what i have seen, (mini)bosses can be executed but als Spared. And from there you can make one of four choices. I forgot them, but it's stuff like giving a significant boon yet heightening the difficulty, or just lowering the difficulty a bit from where you're currently at.
I believe there is a demo up soon.
Nah, it is certainly the lack of pole dancing.
That would depend on if you are maidenless
The little animations always make these so much neater!
I think so too, they really set the videos apart! They have a lot of personality and charm
for me mastering bayo 1 feels like those disney walts dances. the enemies take one step back, u take a step forward. u see the enemy take that step forward, u step back. its elegant, quick, and beautiful just like bayonetta is. When u first begin u dont know how to dance so u miss up but when u take the time to practice u begin to understand their attack patterns, u start learning how this dance works then u are killing those angels like butter on a hotpan.
No way my favorite CZcamsr made a video about my favorite game, I love this man
Thank you so much! I don't say it in the video, but it's one of my absolute favorites as well
The clock sound effect of witch time also helps me, someone who has difficulty focussing on everything when the screen is full of dead angels or rings to collect Its just too satisfying to use witch time, also your analysis was really great keep going man :D
I really think Dodge Offset is what makes the dodge feel so good in Bayonetta because it allows you to seamlessly weave offense and defence. Granblue Fantasy: Relink, which also had some development from PlatinumGames, similarly had Dodge Offset and a perfect dodge system where you get more i-frames. I have hundreds of hours in Bayonetta from trying to get all Platinums in every encounter (Pure Platinum is hell : )) and sometimes I still open up the game to play some of the Angel Slayer mode. Even when I'm rusty as hell just having a pseudo-sandbox mode where you just get tonnes of enemies to fight is what brings me back so many times. Interestingly, the game still feels great and functions without Witch Time BECAUSE of Dodge Offset. Non-Stop Infinite Climax has such a high pace that if you don't use it you will barely be able to get a hit in vs certain enemies. Later Bayonetta titles sort of leaned too hard on Witch Time and the games don't really function that well without it, but in Bayonetta 1 you don't need Witch Time at all.
How does a channel consistently putting out quality have so few subs?
You’re gonna go far mate
That's a question I have been Looking for
13:30 Damn that line hits hard. And make the 3rd game hurts even more in comparison 🥲
Bayonetta's Witch Time is but training wheels of the game -- at best half of the game's intended progression.
The biggest trick and twist of the game is when happens when training wheel fall off and player realizes that game has been training you WRONG this entire time and now you have to relearn the game completely from the ground up and this has been completely intentional.
im starting to wonder if i even played the same game
@@splitprune Wdym by that?
You can still use Witch Time with Bracelet of Time, and with Moon if Mahaa-Kalaa. And you still are rewarded magic with evading, so.
@@WaveAqualei The point is once you go Non-Stop Infinite Climax -- you won't need to use Witch Time
@@azekeprofit and that's fine. Games often limit certain mechanics to make the game harder at Master difficulty
I gotta say, I have to commend you on your elaborate and structured descriptions that cite every source.
I beat DMC3 for the first time today and is quite interesting how similar different it and Bayonetta plays
How would you describe the similarities and differences?
@@jurtheorc8117 I don't know how to explain (I am not the youtuber doing essays) , is more a gut feeling about how my habits in Bayo got appied in DMC and generated different results. Like, some strategies works in one game but not in the other.
@@EduSolsa because both game is make with the principle of 3d beat em up, kamiya and itsuno both is arcade game developer
I once did a full essay on the main difference between on why sekiro is not a souls like and it was basically the same video but you change bayoneta for sekiro and dodge with parry. I even said about how one game makes de defensive actions be aggressive and all
My problem with when people say Sekiro is not a souls-like, is firstly, yes I agree it's more of an action adventure streamlined game than an RPG because of the lack of RPG elements, but everything else has FromSoftware's soulslike DNA in it.
The level design, the enemy design and A.I., the enemy placement, the map structure and pacing, the death penalty, which are all considered "souls-like" elements.
So while the gameplay is different, I would still tag Sekiro as a souls-like because of all the similarities and the apparent FromSoftware DNA in it.
Witch Time is so fun… I don’t even play games like this besides Bayonetta lol, but man she’s just so cool
love the little rolling animations
Im grateful to have found and watch your channel grow bit by bit.
Seeing someone discuss topics that i love the most about the world which are videogames in ways that the average player like me would simply overlook combined with your high quality yet time consuming productions makes me wish that you'll receive much more appreciation for the effort and passion you pumped into these videos!
This reminded me of Turbo Button's video on the enemy design Bayonetta.
I want your videos to get noticed by the algorithm!
recently i've been playing bayonetta 1 and 2 (currently i'm doing the witch trials) i'm so in love with his franchise...
I'm reminded of the Bash mechanic from the platformer games Ori and the Blind Forest and Ori and the Will of the Wisps, which lets you grab onto an enemy or projectile that has *almost* hit you and throw it in a direction of your choice, while you recoil in the opposite direction. Not only does it pause time to give you a second and change to aim, but it resets your double jumps and other mobility moves.
Bash turns every enemy and projectile into a platforming tool that you have to get close to to use. Late in both games, there are segments where there is literally no safe ground to stand on, or even no ground at all - for several screens - and the only way to traverse is off the back of everything that's trying to kill you.
Sub earned, comment for algorithm. I would word vomit about how good this and the MC vid are but it's late and I should sleep.
It's funny, I trained myself accidentally for Nonstop Infinite Climax by using the Evil Harvest Rosary so much when I was playing Hard. I am, admittedly, a middling Bayonetta player, and Gracious and Glorious were giving me mental breakdowns, so I cheesed them hard with that accessory. By the time I got to NSIC, I was already pretty good at fighting without Witch Time.
Loved the inclusion of Operant Conditioning! I studied it at uni and hadn't made that connection. And it's the reason why i love bayonetta but can't get into the souls games. Bayo makes me feel fabulous while fighting!
This was a PERFECT video. The commentary, editing, song choice, the visual aids, educational segments. Everything just flowed in such an engaging and entertaining way. This liked, shared and subscribed without hesitation. Amazing work! 👏🏾
The introduction here was so fierce ngl
Thank you!! This has helped me understand part of why Bayonetta and Bloodborne are my 2 favorite games of all time. Bloodborne's rally mechanic is another example of positively reinforcing aggressive player behaviors! That philosophy of play leads to such exhilarating moments that they still have me coming back after all these years and God knows how many hours.
An interesting addition to this topic could be Metal Gear Rising: Revengence's dodge that's bound to the same button as attack. It's an interesting quirk but it compels the player to remain aggressive. It's not even really a block, more of parry.
thats what I call deep, one button isnt one dimensional button for parry or block, its deep and has different purpose according to player
Witch Time has become like a drug to me. I can't play any other action games anymore because dodging doesn't slow enemies down anymore.
0:01 and WE LOVE IT!
XD
Another good video, I hope you keep rising to the top!
The read and dodge fighting system became so prevalent in modern games that playing the old ones (e.g. Witcher 1) feels wrong. It's a matter of time to see iFrames by rolling in a Mario game.
What a wonderful video! After watching it, I think that I better understand the dissonance or difficulty that I experienced with Bayonetta 3. Without going into spoilers or restarting drama, it was if the gameplay wanted you to feel empowered, while the story tried to do everything it could to make you feel anything but empowered. I would love to hear your thoughts about this one day.
I always look forward to seeing new videos from you. You are always making such high quality stuff about exciting topics 😄
Amazing video 👏
Bayonetta is my favorite game of all time. ❤
I liked this video but I do have a bit of feedback.
First of all I wish you'd mentioned dodge offset. It's even more important to the offensive side of dodging than witch time, especially because as you said there is no witch time on the highest difficulty. Witch time is basically hand-holding you for dodge offset and it's too central to the combat to leave out. Because this wasn't mentioned it made the Bayonetta analysis section of the video a little underwhelming.
Second I rolled my eyes at first when you compared Bayonetta to souls games but you actually ended up making a good point about their differences. This was the most interesting part of the video and I wonder if it should've just been the focus the whole way through, re-titled to reinforce that this video is about Bayonetta combat vs Souls combat, and how their different designs reinforce different behaviours in the player (and subsequently different feelings and tones experienced from the game).
I share these same sentiments. I was driving while listening to this and almost wrecked when he made the comparison to dark souls, and then to not fully grasp the concept of his own video by not mentioning dodge-offset. the TRUE dance of battle for Bayonetta.
that's an amazing video, thanks. subbed
the icon. the legend. Bayonetta!😊
It is tangent to the video topic but I find it a great shame that in modern discussions and comparisons of ARPG combat systems Monster Hunter games' contribution to the genre seems to be forgotten about. Series that predates Souls' and was very much based since the beggining on combat with a steep learning curve - based on managing stamina and thorough knowledge of enemy's patterns, cues and vulnerabilities. Anyways, yet another excellent video! Great work, looking forwards to growth of Your channel~
7:19
O
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XD
Great video! I'm actually surprised there wasn't a mention of monster hunter, as it came out a few years prior with similar mechanics surrounding it as Demon's Souls dodge!
another thing to note is that witch time mechanic is not limited to dodging. moon of mahaa-kalaa creates a high risk high reward situation. parrying at the frame you got hit is significantly harder than dodgeing. failing it results in getting hit (big punishment for platinum players). but succeeding grants a much longer witch time as well as a bonus wicked weave attack right at the starting of the witch time. too bad it got nerfed and became virtually useless item in the 2nd and 3rd game.
also for a greater challange, if you play as j, only way to activate witch time is either by parrying with MoMK or dodge with moth within. but with that, j has a higher witch time combo point multiplier (2 times while bayonetta gets about 1.5) and higher wicked weave damage.
j can also do the dodge move indefinetly while bayonetta gets immobilized after 5 consecutive dodges. this sounds like a nerf to j but it is quite the other way. spamming dodge button after bayonetta fell to ground (immobilized) at any hit you get will activate bat within. it is a good way of cheesing witch time. but since jdoes not have that, there is no way to abuse that mechanic to get free witch times as j. you have to hit dodge at the right time. those devs has an insane skill at game design.
Another really cool video!!
Every time someone calls a Spectacle Fighter a "Character Action Game" I die a little more on the inside
Cause u aren’t sharing enough. Like and subscribe. Click that bell icon.
Engagement for the algorithm gods
I don't very much like Witch Time tbh, but that's a very me thing, I get why it's so popular.
It's the thing surrounding the mechanic that really puts me off. Most enemies don't recoil at non-witch-timed attacks, and witch time makes you all-powerful. The push and pull is too intense, I like playing in the proverbial gray areas games like Devil May Cry grant me.
What other games with high-octane action combat like DMC and Bayonetta have you played, if i may ask? I may be able to share some more.
One of my favourites in recent years has been Soulstice, which has gameplay inspirations from DMC, DmC and Bayonetta, while the tone and writing feels more in line with Darksiders. A different and interesting other favourite from 2023 goes by name of Clash: Artifacts of Chaos, which has various different martial arts styles to find and assign (plus three special attack inputs) and is more of a 3D fighter/beat-em-up.
I'm a big fan of the Darksiders series too, enjoyed The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile, and am currently keeping my eye on Immortal: And the Death that Follows, Genokids and Enenra Daemon Core.
Other ones in production are Mightreya, Gori: Cuddly Carnage, Yasuke: A Lost Descendant and a cartoonish 3D beat-em-up called Kings of Hell.
The fact that Witch Time is disabled on the highest difficulty gives you a clue that the devs also thought it’s overpowered. Witch Time isn’t the most important mechanic in Bayonetta; instead, Dodge Offset is.
Dodge Offset allows you to dodge in the middle of a combo and still finish it afterwards. You do it by holding down the punch or kick button, and pressing dodge while still holding punch/kick at the same time. If you master Dodge Offset, you’ll find that Bayo’s combat has that very same push and pull that DMC1 has for example.
@@atmatey I do understand how important dodge offset is, but it's only the most important at high difficulty, but I also do not like dodging as the only defensive mechanic (as far as I know at least). This doesn't really fix my other issues with the game regardless.
I like the game enough, but I simply don't find Bayonetta as appealing to control. Her weapons are less interesting to me, torture attacks are tedious and the scoring system is less intuitive. It's fun, but I won't regularly come back to it.
@@jurtheorc8117 Those two are pretty much it aside from fighting games, frankly. I don't really like the feel or artstyle of Darksiders, but I might give those another shot eventually. I might check those other ones you mentioned eventually, but I'm pretty content running Bloody Palace on the good DMCs until the next one comes out.
Now, make a video on Dante and The Art of Royal Guard.
DS2 and bloodborn encourage more offensive playstyles.
dope
I'm glad to see bayonetta compared to the souls series, since i actually got into the former because of the latter, and while in dark souls i was always too scared to parry, bayonetta gave me a little more courage to try it in elden ring ^^'
That being said, I played all three games within the past half a year, and this video made it more apparent for me why I gave up on bayonetta 3 - the pacing is so all over the place compared to 1 and 2, and for what ToT The experience of this stylish chaos in gamepolay really is just a make or break for the franchise
If you're up for more games in this genre, put your eye on the likes of Darksiders, Soulstice, DMC, Ninja Gaiden, The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile, Assault Spy and upcoming ones like Genokids, Enenra Daemon Core and Mightreya.
Perhaps even Immortal: And the Death that Follows.
Do note that all of these games have noticable differences from one another, and so far Witch Time and Dodge Offset are, to this day, unique to Bayonetta. It's not a genre staple.
If you're interested in these other games, go into them as their own things, try to discover them on their own fields and what they have to offer.
No offense man, but one of the most crucial things you failed to mention in this breakdow, isn't that Bayonetta wants you to use your dodge roll, it wants to instill a sense of being cool, cocky, and a bad ass, by dodging a strike at the exact moment it looks to make contact. It's also a tool of storytelling through gameplay that tbh few games can ever hope to achieve
how did you completely ignore the dodge offset?
What is funny about this video is everything that you've explained with Witch Time is actually the result of Dodge Offset.
Even with the exemple with Fortitudo killing Bayonetta's Umbran Witches companions or the inflamed angels, Witch Time is not the answer in those scenarios.
Like you've said, the hardest difficulty, Non-Stop Infinite Climax, removes Witch Time entirely from the game (unless you are playing with the Bracelet of Time), not because you have successfully learned how to dodge via the usage of Witch Time during your first couple times playing Bayonetta, but because you’ve learned how to attack and defend yourself at the same time.
In this case, why would the hardest difficulty remove the main mechanic of the game that you’ve been using the whole entire time to actually win and beat the game ? Simply because it is not.
Kinda odd to think of that since the game introduces it first thing first during the tutorial in the graveyard or even showcases it during epic moments of the game, because it is good when you start.
Let’s go back to the two main exemples you’ve provided : the Fortitudo fight and the inflamed angels and treat those exemples with the “triangle” of the game to have the highest award : Pure Platinum.
Waiting for Fortitudo to strike and then dodging to trigger Witch Time is not the answer since it makes the fight nothing but longer than it already is when playing for the fight time. Like you’ve said it yourself, Fortitudo is too far away to attack but, waiting and doing nothing is also not the answer. Even without the need for Dodge Offset, you have something called Wicked Weaves, which are your main combo finishers, and they have long reach. Doing combos to have access to Wicked Weaves to kill Fortitudo is the way to go, Dodge Offset will “only” help you cancel those animations to get to a Wicked Weave faster.
Now, the inflamed angles.
A massive part of this type of angel is that they teach you a lesson : do not touch me or it’ll hurt.
Then what should we do ? Witch Time could be an answer, but it is not THE answer.
If you are waiting, once again, for the angels to attack first and then trigger Witch Time, you only have a moment to attack them in return. But once that’s done, your combo meter will break and you won't have access to that shiny Pure Platinum award of yours.
You’ve shown times again (if these are yours, of course) in your gameplay sequences a quite big usage of the shoot button. While it is the dedicated shoot button of the game, it is not how you shoot. Holding punches and kicks will give you access to a much stronger attack (and bullets) during your combos without breaking them by using the shoot button in between and even without the need to hit the angels.
This is how you deal with them and this is where Dodge Offset comes into the picture.
Holding an attack (be it punch or kick) while dodge won’t break your combo, but will make Bayonetta shoot bullets while dodging and keep her combo going during a defensive action. That is the power of Dodge Offset. Attacking while dodging.
Dodging in those moment could grace you with a Witch Time since you would do this when an angel would try to attack you, which results in : more combo damage and not combo being broken, which leads to a higher combo score for your award ; killing angels without the need to wait for Witch Time and being as fast as you can to clear the level ; and not being touched.
All of these elements will reward you to a much higher, if not the highest, award in the game.
Now apply this to every situation you’ve talked about : Fortitudo, the inflamed angels, the Jeanne fight, etc.
The Non-Stop Infinite Climax is there to challenge your knowledge of angel attacks, patterns and behaviors (since you encounter stronger angels a lot sooner) but also, your way with the Dark Arts, evasion, Dodge Offsetting, optimizing and maximizing your damage output while being absolutely untouchable and no longer relying on a mechanic that the game has removed here.
This is where the true Art of Dodging comes into place, but also Bayonetta’s dance on the battlefield which will give you the true Bayonetta experience : fast, smooth, powerful and incredibly elegant.
This comment is not in any way trying to dismiss the work you’ve done or your knowledge about it. I’ve been a massive fan of the franchise since I was 12 and I’ve been playing this game for years now.
It is still a good video with a good intent, and also really well edited !
Hey Dot can you fly me to the moon so I can play among the stars? 😢
Witch time also defined smash 4
what is the intro song?
Posting this comment because this is a very good video !
It's a bit ridiculous to make a video like this and not mention Dodge Offset even once. Dodge Offset is the most important mechanic in Bayonetta, not Witch Time. This is indicated by the game when Witch Time is completely removed on the highest difficulty.
On lower difficulties, the main benefit of Witch Time is that you can finish longer combos without being interrupted by enemy attacks at the middle of them, so you can activate the Wicked Weave at the end. You say that at the highest difficulty the player has already mastered dodging, but that doesn't actually make sense. On Non-Stop Infinite Climax difficulty, enemy attack telegraphs are dramatically shorter (sometimes less than 0.5 seconds!) than on Normal difficulty, and the player would practically never be able to finish their combos, since they're constantly being interrupted. It would be a frustrating mess.
With Dodge Offset, the player is able to dodge in the middle of their combo, and can still continue doing it to get the Wicked Weave at the end. This is done by holding the punch or kick button, and pressing dodge while keeping the punch or kick button held at the same time. Bayonetta will shoot bullets from all of her guns during the dodge animation to indicate that the Dodge Offset was successful. With Dodge Offset, the player can freely plan and execute combos, and dodge when necessary. Holding down the punch/kick buttons to shoot bullets and using Dodge Offset is is also really important to not let your point combo drop, since the player will lose it if they don't deal damage or taunt within a 5 second interval. Dodge Offset is a really unique mechanic and one of my favorites in any game. It requires a bit of finger gymnastics to learn, but is very satisfying to do once you've mastered it.
Appreciate comments like these that can give extra illumination on a big mechanic. Does that work for every weapon in the game
And I take it you're a very big fan of Bayonetta.
@@jurtheorc8117 Yes, Dodge Offset works on all weapons, though it’s easiest to feel with weapons that shoot projectiles like Scarborough Fair, Bazillions, Sai Fung etc. And yes Bayonetta 1 is one of my favorite games of all time, haha.
I think at some point they mentioned that part of their approach for these essays is to approach games from a "pick up the controller and play for the first time" angle. So in that regard it makes sense they did not talk about dodge offset since I think it's pretty rare to start a game at the highest difficulty. I think it's a bit unfair to call it "ridiculous." But based on your explanation I can see how important dodge offset can be.
@@megascopsasio2015 Well, Dodge Offset can be used on any difficulty, it’s really useful even if the player can trigger Witch Time. Dodge Offset is the glue that connects the defense layer of the game with the offense layer, so it’s a bit odd to analyze the dodge mechanic without mentioning Dodge Offset.
@@atmatey I see what you're saying
Play Animal Well.
I think another important thing about the dodge is that your offense doesn’t have to stop when you avoid attacks because of Dodge Offset, which lets you interrupt a combo sequence to dodge, then lets you start again from where you left off. So despite dodging, the game is still encouraging offense after a successful dodge, just like what was mentioned in the video. I love bayo and this video was a great deep dive.
There's a game from 2023 called Clash: Artifacts of Chaos (a Zeno Clash prequel) and one from 2022 called Soulstice (not actually a Soulslike as some may suspect) that have some cool mechanics for continuing offense.
Soulstice has a player character that is technically two characters: A living person and a ghost, their souls tied together, referred to as a Chimera. It has DMC, DmC and Bayonetta inspirations for gameplay, though instead of witch time/dodge offset, the Shade can perform counterattacks separate from the Knight's physical attacks.
The way this is done is by one button being assigned the Counterattack button (there's controller remapping, which i like), with the enemies having a Counterattack prompt popping up when they're about to perform specific attacks.
Counterattacks come in some different varieties, though you can't freely choose which one it will be. A projectile Counter will always be Deflect, for example, meaning the attack gets thrown right back at the enemy.
The other varieties, Disrupt and Freeze, depend on the individual animation. Disrupt makes it so the enemy attack never happens at all, and Freeze... well, what it says on the tin.
Though it has a quirk in that, after the Freeze is over, there *will* be an immediate hitbox from where the attack swings. But it happens even when it looks like an enemy has already swung.
In any case: Not all attacks are Counterable, but with a press of the button and if you're in time, the Shade *will* perform it regardless of the distance.
There's some upgrades that allow for things like the Counter still following through even if you pressed the Button too late, but has an invisible cooldown. It tended to mess me up, so i deactivated that skill.
(the game allows full currency refunds)
There's other skills such as a health or currency drop bonus or a short movement speed bonus upon a Perfect Counter. Or an enemy getting launched.
That, and the Shade has passive attacks too. Like an automatic ranged weapon that helps in keeping a combo on the meter going.
A VERY sweet thing too: Succesful counters build up the Unity meter. Think of it as a hybrid between a Style and a Special/Magic/Devil Trigger.
At the highest tresholds, you can perform a special weapon-unique Finisher by ending a particular combo with a particular weapon in exchange for a little Unity, or simply go into the temporary Rapture mode, which itself has a powerful Finisher move.
(interesting thing here: Rapture Mode is affected by the type of skills you have the most active of. There's four variants, all with some own passive traits and unique Finisher)
Clash: AoC is decidedly simpler. The moveset between any fighting Stance you can find and switch between, consists of
- Combo String
- Run Attack
- Jump Attack
- Charge Attack
But the directional dodges themselves can lead into unique directional attacks. So
- Forward Attack
- Sideways Attack
- Backwards Attack.
Two Stances can be assigned to switch between at any time, even mid-combo. And you can assign three different Specials to three inputs (Neutral, Forward and Backward special)
All Stances too have their own unique animation movesets, so different "rhythms" of attack. Some dodge attacks may return you to your initial position for example, some attacks may hit multiple times in that one animation, some keep you in a low profile, some hit straight ahead while others hit in a wider range, etc.
Some moves that are always present, unchanged by Stance, are:
- Parry/Block
- Super Mode
Here's the other mechanic: Animation canceling. A deliberate mechanic that works by inputting a new attack the moment your previous attack makes contact with an enemy. (does not work with going into one Combo String from another)
If you got your timings down, you can do stuff like Jump Attack > Two combo hits > Switch stance to get the third hit of said other stance > Left Sideways dodge attack > Backwards dodge attack > Special > Right Sideways dodge attack, etc.
It's not all-powerful though, enemies can still tank hits and the main character is told in the beginning that speed is his greatest offense and defense alike.
Big comment, but i hope this was interesting!
@@jurtheorc8117 I’ve actually seen a little of Clash! It seemed pretty cool. I hadn’t heard of the other game but it also sounds cool! Thanks for going in depth, I’m always down for new action games. I’ll have to check them out now!
@@calltire8978 You're most welcome, and thank you in turn for reading it all through and for replying! Can warmly recommend Clash, the Zeno Clash games as a whole are a very unique series with inspirations ranging from medieval art (like Hieronymus Bosch's paintings and the Drolatic Dreams of Pantagruel) to prehistoric animals. Nothing quite like it.
Soulstice is one of my great favourites alongside Clash from the recent years, though i will say it may be a bit tougher to get into. A central mechanic has proven divisive and as you can read, there's a *lot* to the mechanics. And it tends to drag on with levels a bit, either in the first third or middle third (i've heard people mention either).
Bosses are backloaded too, but aside from the Weavers they're all highlights.
Even with all the rough spots i can likewise warmly recommend Soulstice.
Always down for new action games... well, you're in luck, i think i may be able to supply a list of some titles! Most of them are still in development.
For 2D action platformers, there's
- Decline's Drops. Gardener doll with boxing gloves sets out to fight an evil force of science that destroyed her garden. I believe there's three other playable characters planned.
- Kraino Rebirth. Skeleton with a top hat and a scythe in a spooky monster land here to kick butt.
- Antonblast. This one's more known.
There's the hand-drawn 2D animated metroidvania Cookie Cutter. Got quite a smooth and rapid combat system that has weapons ranging from a big metal fist to a plasma cannon to an electric guitar. Simply a solid game (and one of my favourites).
Want to throw RKGK/Rakugaki among here as well. Haven't looked much into that one but seemed a colorful and decent 3D skating platformer type thing. Don't remember if it has combat.
Another 2D perspective game, but in a 3D environment:
- Immortal: And the Death that Follows. A friend of mine described this one as Hindy Mythology Mad Max Beat-em-Up. About a monstrous creature named Fudo the Immovable with no head, but a face on his torso. He was banished to a special prison for demigods for an alleged great crime of his, and now has to fight his way out and regain his title.
Game's a roguelike with gameplay inspirations from the game God Hand, which to my understanding works by assembling different individual moves for Fudo and for using a Spared boss in different ways. (like making the boss lower the overall difficulty, demanding a bonus but increasing the difficulty, and two other options)
For 3D action games, there's
- Genokids. Rock band fighting off an alien invasion. The band members can be swapped between and all of them seem to get two weapons and their own Specials/Magic and Special Forms.
The swapping has allowed for such stuff as starting a Special Move and swapping to a different character. Character Nr. 1 will continue its special (like a rapid punch rush) and go away when that's done, but with Character Nr. 2 you can move around while Character Nr. 1 is in that animation.
- Enenra Daemon Core. Seems to be cyborg ninja shenanigans.
- Yasuke: A Lost Descendant. Seems to be colorful cyberpunk samurai shenanigans.
- Gori: Cuddly Carnage. About a syntethic toy cat using a hoverboard to stop a horrible toy apocalypse. The hoverboard is both your way of movement and your weapon.
- Kings of Hell. About a group of demons that want to, as the name says, become the Kings of Hell. Fair warning: Though it looks colorful and cartooonish, this one's quite spicy, lots of dudes in thongs/with emphasized eggplants. And foul language, of course.
But people seem positive on the music and gameplay.
- Mightreya, a new game by the dev of Assault Spy.
- Djinn Hunter, this one's very early in development.
- Motorslice. Likewise seems quite early in development and its style seems based around construction sites and the like.
- No Straight Roads. Short, bright, stylish boss-centric action game all about music. The actual gameplay may be the weakest part, because the characters, world, bosses, and general love for the entire game and setting shines so strongly. For one, every boss has at least three different versions of their boss theme: Normal, EDM and Rock. The song seamlessly leans more into either one depending on if the player or the boss is getting the overhand (EDM for the boss, Rock for the protagonists).
With the Christmas Update and Encore Edition, that added Christmas remixes and special Guest remixes.
I think there's also some beat-em-ups out there, from the 2010s or so, like Mayhem Brawlers and Fight'n Rage. And even older than that, there's Charlie Murder and The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile.
Hope this list has proven interesting and fun! Have any caught your attention so far?
@@jurtheorc8117 wow, thanks for such an extensive list! Most of these I don’t know so I’m excited to look them up, that genokids one especially sounds cool. That god hand inspired one too!
I’ve actually had decline drops on my radar and follow the creator on Twitter. I’m very excited for when that is released. Thanks again for the list! I appreciate your dedication.
@@calltire8978 Sorry for the late reply, and thank you for replying yourself. I'm glad the list here is of interest to you!
Recently i had Jamphibian recommended as another addition to the assembly of action a-games.
Right, Immortal: And the Death that Follows is one of the games i'm most excited for here. I'm not the most experienced with Roguelikes aside from Zet Zillions, so i'm curious how it will be.
Nice that Decline's Drops was on your radar already! Here's to hoping all these will turn out good.