Airplane Prices Will Drop If This Law Passes
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- čas přidán 15. 02. 2023
- In this video, I explain why owning a light aircraft can be a more cost-effective and accessible option. We'll explore the upfront costs involved in buying one and the long-term financial benefits of ownership. Join me as I provide valuable insights and tips for anyone interested in owning their own aircraft.
In reference to the previous video, here`s the link below:
• Airplanes Are About To...
Become A Commercial Pilot in 9 months: lookupflightacademy.com
Learn how to make money on CZcams: mojocreatives.com/huddle
Used airplanes for sale: www.aeroavion.com - Auta a dopravní prostředky
At the end of the day, we have to get light sport planes down to the cost of a car. Not just in purchase cost, but operating cost. Something that you can pay off within 5 years, use mogas, reasonable insurance, and also something you can keep in your garage instead of expensive hangar fees. When they get FAA gets the rules, along with a couple of savvy business people, then things will really take off and give us all the freedom that aviation can be.
I’m not holding my breath for anything the FAA is talking about, they have proven time and again to be one of the slowest government agencies to do anything and seem to be stuck in the past when it comes to certification of aircraft and especially engines.
The FAA is like the forest of trees in Lord of the Rings.
Hello Mike my friend! I admire the work you do as an aviation enthusiast and communicator and have followed it for quite long.
In my opinion as I understand general aviation market the price of a certified aircraft goes way up because of liability issues. When you build your aircraft you are responsible for it but when a big company builds it, if something goes wrong lawyers have someone to sue now. For aviation to be affordable production should be in the hundreds of thousands like the car industry is now. Keep up the good work !! Cheers!
You certainly provide fine content. I view a great deal of streamed content. You are one of my favorite streamers. Keep up the good work.
You and I both know, that the Sling TSI being built in a factory will still cost the same as it would now, greed always gets the best of people
LOL. I did say I hope!
@@mojogrip Lol you did 🤣🤣
And the engines, avionics, fuels and everything else are sold by shady cartels practicing absurd prices.
Let’s set up a plant in Africa I believe the cost would drastically decrease.
I can help set up one in Kenya
@@joewendo2529 sling home base is in Africa I believe 🤔🤔
My guess is it will be easier to run them but not buy them. I am not really seeing prices go down.
What I could buy for 25 to 30K twenty years ago are now sold for over 100K. Even joining a flying club your looking at 100 dollars/hour for rentals. Reducing the cost for GA aviation will never happen and is on a dying vine as long as the lawyers keep suing the mfg's for millions of dollars for accidents. I don't see anything in the future that is going to change the cost matrix of GA aircraft.
Hi Mike. Bunches of respect and admiration for you. Been following you for some time now. Your communication skills are superb! Hope to meet you someday. I am part of the working poor and am over 70 with some health concerns. Can't afford it and am too old to start now. Been getting my flying fix vicariously, by following you and watching CZcams. Keep up the TREMENDOUS and NOBLE service you provide.
You statement that Sport pilot is limited to how long you can fly is not correct. Unless you are referring to flying after sunset. And you can fly in any airspace except for Class A.
LSA (or any new plane) will never get inexpensive; and nothing is getting cheaper!
I agree with others that LSA manufacturers may not pass economy of scale savings on to the consumer. What I can see though, is by making LSA’s competitive with GA aircraft it could force down the prices of the older aircraft as owners upgrade to better performance and newer technology. If current aircraft owners decide to sell, they will have to lower the price. Nobody is going to pay as much for a used airplane anymore if they can get a new LSA for the same price.
Nice update. Thanks Mike
Very interesting video mate 😊!!
Current LSA's will lose value but some of the 1500-3000 lb GA-A will become super valuable, especially 2 place highly efficient
I would say that if you want to buy an airplane, don't wait for the FAA to take any decision, it might take a while. Just look at the G100UL. It was tested 10 years ago and the STC just got approved. On the cost of the machines out of the factory, my wild guess will be that none of the savings will go towards reducing the purchase price to the customer. Rather the opposite. The claim will be that since they're not amateur-built, they're more quality hence a higher price and probably a higher resale value too at the same time. 400k to buy a small plane like a TSI is very strange, there are so many better options on the market right now. You can get a Diamond DA40 for 500k. If you have 100k extra, go for the DA40 I would say.
Ya diamond da 40 xl has been catching my eye and the cirrus sr22
I agree these companies been penny pinching for years hoping for a way to increase profits this will be their chance to get rich overnight. Look at what happened to experimental kits in the last 4-5 years. Kitfox, RV all of them kits were in the 20-40k range you could still find a used engine and overhaul it fly for under 50k those days are long gone. I wonder is will these companies get STC's to increase the gross weight still a kitfox will get to about 1500-1600 lbs not much will the end production on those and build larger aircraft that are SLSA people will dump those smaller ones which could be registered EA or ELSA. I think used might go down but new will go up in price. What we need is a recession that will drive prices down.
Mike, you do a great job explaining the process. Please keep us updated on the status of the regulation.
Nice thoughts. I center Lu hope things get cheaper. Love the new mosaic rule. Yay!!🎉
Thanks for the info, hey bro where you located
Another issue with the Sling TSi becoming a light sport is the speed limitation of level cruise of no more than 120kts. You could just redline it 120 even though it is capable of more than that. But if that is known, and it will be, then folks will exceed the redline all the time. Hopefully, they will increase the max speed to something more reasonable given current technology as well.
That's at sea level. There are no air speed police at 8500ft
Thanks Mike!
I hope that they don't stop with LSA at MOSAIC. I want to see the same types of reform extended to Part 103. I'm not asking for two seats, or LSA-like weights. I would like to see a reasonable 50 lb. increase in weight, expanding fuel to 10 gallons, and top speed to 70 knots.
Thanks for the video. I’m at retirement age and want to get back into flying (got about 25 hours and passed my written test before I ran out of time and money at age 20) as my hobby and thinking about first private pilot glider license to get started right away in like a Pipistrel then go to light sport so this is relevant and a Sling TSI would be great 😊
Im the same way except with dreams of flying a Gyroplane. A ELA Eclipse EVO to be precise.
Same situation here....retired now from the fire service. Back in the late 80s early 90s I had passed written ground school test and completed all flight requirements (~60 hrs) but got busy with college finish a degree and never completed my final FAA check-off ride. Now at a much older age would like to try to getting back into to flying but the cost has gotten ridiculous.
Hello,
Thank you for really nice video. Yes the present situation in general aviation is crazy. 100-200k dollars for garmin!!!!!
You explain the difference between experimental and LSA very nice. But here I would like to add something. For mass production and consequently lowering the prices, the aircraft producers have to make new much more modern, user friendly designs. For ex. fly by wire flight control systems with all protections which should be easy and natural to operate, impact energy absorption construction , simple check lists, .......
Aircrafts design stay at the fifties!
Just compare aircraft and automotive technology.
User experience, design, safety, usage of non expensive material and constructions will be the key factor for lowering the price of SEP airplanes.
Q: Does the main players want to change the system?
Hi in Australia we have the group g cat coming soon (I hope )that will give us the increse in MTOW to 760kg
I have always wanted to be a pilot, the more research i do, the more i feel it's not affordable. It's so sad, it's actually depressing.
I’m a rated paraglider pilot, and it’s been a lot of fun for about a decade. Formal instruction is available and fairly inexpensive. Free flight can teach a lot of valuable lessons to apply to other aircraft, but it’s pretty cool flying a coastal lift, or cross country thermals, and I’ve enjoyed flights in excess of four hours.
Now I’m beginning to consider a sport pilot license and a single seat ultralight or experimental SLA - but I’m not giving up paragliding, which conveniently fits in the car trunk and travels well in a cargo hold.
Mike
If the higher weight passes, does the number of seats will increase also from 2 to 4?
The published proposed rule summary 250 knots CAS . No mention of ma weights rather, it calls for a max stall speed of 54 kts. Practically speaking that opens it up to some aircraft well over 2000ilbs. A Cessna 182 may qualify. An LS pilot can fly a four seater but the limitations of one passenger and daytime IFR will remain, BUT there will be a certification you can go get for night time VFR. There's some really good stuff about A&P and commercial use of your LSA/experimental like towing signs or flying pipelines for pay that sort of thing. Once past the public comment period it is expected to go into effect at the end of 2024
What’s thee expected time line for the MOSIC rules to be passed ?
Anything new on thees bills? Do you have any specific resources or names so we can follow direct through the faa. Please and thanks!
Sorry I found it at the 3:34 second mark
It would be great if the C150/152 would become LSA certified.
I don't think so, there are currently 140+ models to choose from in light sport and no one will want to deal with mixture and continental or Lycoming engines. The simple thing to have done was just adopt the European rules and that would totally secure light aviation future
1. 1320 weight limit
2. No ifr
Those are the only restrictions in European light sport sector.
@MooneyPilot My thinking on that is, well, the first thing most of us ever flew was a 152. They are everywhere, and parts are available and reasonably priced. Plus, a 152 can be found for a price that a lot of common folks can afford. Price was a big reason that Cessna's Skycatcher LSA failed. Nobody wanted to pay $300k for a LSA aircraft.
1600 lbs gross
@grassblade63 while does sounds like common sense, most mew pilots are training on newer aircraft with glass panels and parachutes with no mixture. Airplanes will never be for the average person because only a small segment of the population are pilots and there are just not enough to mass produce aircraft
@@AvgDude what's 1600lbs gross?
I'm just looking to build a Sonex or perhaps buy a 150 but I'm Getting into the game late at my age. I have about a dozen hours of flight training under my belt but at this stage I just don't see myself finishing to get my private pilots license. So, my question is can I continue and get my sport pilots license with just my Class A CDL driver's license? Or do I still need to get a medical because I Get conflicting information from different flight schools when I call them?
Have you ever failed your medical
Thanks for this
They need to start 3D printing planes. They are able to 3D print rocket boosters. Obviously it's not the same animal but the technology and the strength of the produced parts would make it possible.
Very good point sir.
nice thought but what you're talking about will eventually result in lots of start ups making planes that they can't sell enough of to recoup the investment. Eventually, there will be a few new players in the business but mostly, it'll be kinda like it is now.
Keep on keeping on Mojo Grip 👍👍😀
The thing is Mike, is that human nature being what it is and investors being all about money, the manufacturers will be taking larger profits and the consumer will not benefit at all. Manufacturers and consumers cannot both save the same money.
The FAA is not changing the weight for LSA bit increasing the stall speed. Key difference. As far as the Mfg’s not getting greedy have you seen what has happened in the past 3 years for the price of anything? Record profits for companies and gouging the customers
Mike, what is the average cost to learn to fly in the USA, say for a Shark ultralight.
If the Sling TSI gets certified the price will most likely go up since the demand could become higher. The $30k number you mention is from Sling? The cost of robotics and engineers to maintain them will be substantial. Unless Sling can sit for a while with negative revenues I predict the price will remain the same or get higher. Sling is a small player and usually small co, like Lucid or Rivian, have to charge more until they build a customer base that is able to keep the co afloat with small margins. Though I do hope you're right and Im wrong. Prices need to come down.
what are the chances of this passing ?
One can only hope. But this is a rich man's sport. With or without a medical. Sounds like a ad for sling. Robots to build a plane would be very costly. I've seen them drill parts but haven't seen one that can do AD rivets. Got any vids or info.
When you say an LSA limited on how far they can go, what do you mean?
Recreational pilot has ab50 military limit
how long FAA.. ohhh.. yea they can out wait us all
Light sport planes are not certified aircraft. They are built based on builders concensus.
Limitations
1. 1320 max gross weight and must have sign off from CFI to fly into B,C,D airspace.
2. One passenger
3. No night flying
4. Max 10000 altitude unless in mountains
5. 120 knots max speed
6. No retractable gear
7. No constant speed prop
Most of these will change with new rules.
My light sport is a certified aircraft. It is 1320 lbs. Less than 120 mph cruise speed, and two seats. It was designed and built before the FAA was even thought of.
So, a $40k kit factory built for $25k, and $35k in avionics is sub $100k? I'd do that in a heartbeat and STILL get my A36 for the family. Since we are buying 100+ acres in California, I can keep one there (Sling) and still use the Bonanza to get back and forth to Florida when I need to come back.
I've heard that the main reason just about everything aviation related really comes down to our lawsuit happy society. Any time anything happens you have ambulance chasing lawyers telling you to sue the manufacturer regardless of the reason. This leads manufacturers, A/P's etc, to significantly increase their prices to build up an "in case we get sued" fund. I've also heard that the U.S. has more lawyers that the rest of the world combined. This seems to be a bit of a stretch to me but it also wouldn't surprise me. I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether any of this is even credible.
Litigation is covered by insurance, and also, by that logic, cars would be astronomically expensive since way more of them are out there causing way more fatal crashes.
@@JB_Hobbies Some cases involve the manufacturer of the airplane or the components, the fuel supplier, the pilot, the carter business... Cars sell way more and have an user base that is less prone to waste time with nonsensical lawsuits.
It if you get a TSI that’s ELSA then you can’t do IFR
I have not heard of ANY GA aircraft manufacturer using robotic processes to assemble their airplanes; they're just too few built to invest in the robotics. So I don't think prices will drop at all and probably go up.
The general aviation world sorely needs some economy of scale action going on. Companies are building like 7-8 new certified airplanes a year, and every other aircraft being built is experimental and being built as a one-off thing, usually in some dude's garage. That is a recipe for very high prices and little advancement. It seems to me that we've been driven to this situation by a) FAA regulations and b) the lawsuit culture.
Never going to get cheaper. I remember when they put the 15-year limit on parts. Everyone said that the manufacturers would pass that insurance saving money on to everyone because now they didn't have all those aircraft that they were responsible for. Did this happen not on your life and their prices just went sky-high and look at the profit they're making. Their greed and constantly saying that its profit that has to be given to the people that supply the money will never go away. In the early 80s I was offered a brand-new 172 for $25,000. That same aircraft nowadays at 45 years old would be worth more than three times that. How do you spell greed. Those that have say "I deserve it" . Those that don't say I'll never be able and they have say too bad!!!!!!!!
It will take a few years, provided someone with big balls, makes a huge investment in an assembly line, than can produce 3 or more each day. You need a great design. laser aluminum cutters and welding, a dozen Kuka Robots, and industrial design to make it modular and cheap. Have 2 avionics and 2 engines. A reasonable price and they will make and sell em like hotcakes. Even current LSA prices will plunge if this comes to pass. Interesting times indeed.
Sling TSi stall speed is above the proposed MOSAIC limit of 54 knots clean. TSi is 55.
How much of design challenge is reducing stall speed by one knot?
We're into marginal changes territory now!
@philipritson8821 just take 5min to make it 53 thats ok
does your flight school work with students that are in charlotte?
Yes
There is no way that the rule passes this year. The FAA has said from the very beginning, and has reiterated many times, they expect it to take about 16 months from the time of NPRM release to the final passing of the rule.
If history repeats itself, the savings from the increased supply will be absorbed by the market after the bottom barrel stuff is used up.
Very interesting thx for sharing. Have a great weekend. #salute my gud brotha!!!!!
Maybe. Lots of factors here. I doubt given rv bankruptcy that any other manufacturers will be able to create a cheaper aircraft. Factory or kit. As well light sport pilots probably are maxed out as a population. Any other pilots are not medically compromised or heading for jobs will spend little time in light sport.
I'm waiting for a list of aircraft that will now be considered LSA.
Love your videos. Need to disagree on this one. While it would be nice and how it should be. Manufactures will significantly increase their prices. Even if they can build it much more efficient. They will still increase prices. A Sling will all the sudden cost as much as a Cirrus.
LSA will get cheaper standard like a 172 will get lot more expensive only have so many out there that are older and increase the demand it will push prices up. I really can't afford anything more than what an average new car cost about 40k or less flying. I want to get my PPL so I can rent larger planes I have a few medical issues I should be able to get past them with a SI. What I wonder about is insurance new pilots flying heavier aircraft more high performance that only have 25 hours of training might push the insurance up in cost. Gyro's they can't get insurance at a reasonable rate most just fly without hull insurance some fly without any insurance. The Gyro industry is crippled because they are trying to sell 100k aircraft you can't finance something like that if you can't get it insured. The only route is to finance the money on your home can you imagine if you wreck the thing and now have 100k extra on your home for nothing.
You are 100% spot on about higher insurance cost. Expect to see low liability limits and hull rates (if at all offered) to be in the 4-5% ranger/per thousand for values under $200k and maybe a 2-3% rate per thousand > $200,000 value. Add another 2-3% if you're over 70 yrs old.
@@avflyguyI have decided to just go light sport with the FAA NPRM just was opened for LSA. I was little shocked by how far they went with the changes. I wonder if Insurance companies will demand a medical like they do with life insurance. Might be they offer lower rates if you get a medical exam. The only good part of that would be not having to deal with the FAA and all that BS. Fail a medical exam for insurance just get higher rate. It's all speculation at this point. The fact will be I can rent a 172 under these new rules will I be able to get renter insurance??
@@Mike-01234 I'm not so sure about that. While a few companies offer Non-owned (Renters) coverage, I don't imagine any have had any serious underwriting discussions yet. Keep in mind, this is in the very early phase (NPRM). This will likely drag on for several years. I've read about the first third of the 300 page document. I think there will be many objections by some big boys in the corral....
@@avflyguyIt's open for 90-day comment period now. The only thing I thought was odd the discussion about night VFR. They said light sport pilots would end up flying at night without any training in the winter months, yet these new rules would allow it with proper training only if the Light sport pilot had a medical or basic medical. That didn't make any sense to me. I guess the FAA just can't let go of that medical completely. I don't think it will drag on for years the UAV NPRN was completed following year after the comment period closed, they got way more comments than general aviation does.
In reference to his theory why would it be a good thing to start building cheaper experimentals at a factory? 1st off it would no longer be an experimental. It would be a factory plane and you lose the 50% rule.
I started building my RV-10 because I got sick of paying someone to repair and install things on my GA I know I can do.
Other than putting around for those that just want to get in the air, LSA is useless to me. No offense to anyone, just my personal opinion.
Nice thought but the REALITY is, when you consider all of those involved from concept to handing you the keys, will NOT compromise on their profit margins.
There rationale is they have been selling these craft at a near loss to develop the market. Just because their cost have gone down, only means, their profits have come up and don't expect the joy to flow down hill. REAL Economics 101.
Now for a more realistic scenario. Get the Chinese involved and 5 - 10 months, you'll be able to buy an IFR Certified, Sports Aviation aircraft, 360 knot top speed, range 350,000 miles, burns 2 gallons/hr and dual 500 gallon tanks, climbs 2500ft/min, pressurized, ceiling of 70k' , glass panels, seats 4 XXXL size men and 2500 lbs luggage with full tanks, weather radar, 90K hr before engine overhaul, and 2 sexy, full-body masseuses with free shipping on ePay for $29.99. This includes 2 engine overhauls free.
Though, expect the claimed specifications to be somewhat exaggerated.
Good video - your analysis is good. But this event that may or may not happen will take some time. Then the FAA will take time to change rules IF they see so fit. Then it will take time (another couple years) for the industry to start to shift and we actually see "more efficiently produced aircraft". I'm talking total of 5 years or more from now. Too many ifs and buts in this whole scenario also to say this is coming. It could get derailed by so many things. My first thought is some sort of global problem like the wu flu again, or more likely a large global recession that many experts say it will be worst in our lifetime. The world is getting crazier not better toady.
Prices will go up not down. There is certain demand for aircraft heavier than LSA. If weight limits are increased the demand for these aircraft will increase as will the price. Unless Tesla can start building aircraft with a giga factory to lower cost with economies of scale, we are out of luck.
G,day Mike from Sydney Australia.
Mike, Mike. Mike, I am still a believer that a flying club or partnership is; "the only way to fly"
🤔🤪🤠😆😃
There’s no reason single engine planes need to be so expensive.
I can’t wait to go to your flight school!
Brother Mo. I hope it goes as you think it will. But from the pessimistic point of view. There's just to much greed going on in this world today. There's way more people thinking of I then us. I hope I'm wrong, but time will tell. Sorry man. I Got on a downer there for abit!!!
Manufacturers are for maximum profit they are not going to drop the price of those planes like that
They need to do something because the cost has become ridiculously out of control way beyond what the common middle class working or retired person can afford!
I believe that under the new regulations the 120 KT limitation has been raised significantly right along with weight & Distance. You can still only fly with one passenger so those extra two seats are relegated to your Wife’s shoes & suitcases! LOL
Did the law pass?
If light sports are certified and require certified components, they will cost more, not less.
I disagree, I was going to build an airplane some time ago but the cost of parts will add up. Look at engines there is no manufacture making cheap engines. Even a Rotac engine cost $50 k for a 160 Horsepower engine. How about a prop 10k cheap prop. So it will vary expensive to even build a plane. You're better off buying an older plane .
Manufactureer WILL get greedy. When have you seen that cost saving get pass down to enduser/consumer when it mean more profit to manufacturers. If you think that you are leaving in a fantasy world.
Dang Mike, it was a full-length sales pitch.
Sorry guys, prices will not drop. LSA prices will increase due to an increasing demand. I can't believe their current costs for crafts that are moderately slower than a car. 55mph ground speed? What's the point? A step down from this is like climbing a fire tower. 🔥
Not many companies lower there prices. Always have some excuse to charge more
You do know 1320 pounds is the equivalent is 600 kilograms?
Now you now why so many light sport aircraft are designed in Europe.
I love your content but I do believe you are way off the mark on this one. When the LSA rule first came out folks were preaching this same story. Yep they were wrong and several large manufacturers like Cessna and Piper got out of the market quickly because they could not hit the low cost target and make money. People actually put down deposits on planes that were supposed to cost 100-120k. By the time the aircraft were produce the price had risen in most cases by as much as 50%. Do I think this new rule will keep more people in aviation longer and possibly encourage more people into aviation. Absolutely, I do. Will prices go down? History says not a chance. We will see.
FAA talked for years about lower flying standard for non professional pilots. It took Congress passing a law to MAKE them. Dumb name cannot recall. It's the medical but they made the requirement to get a 3rd class medical first. requirement
I respect your opinion but disagree with you about prices. If more people can fly more aircraft that increases demand.
Economics 101... when demand increases price increases.......
All the pseudo pilots in LSA can now fly a Cessna.
I also think the idea that more planes will be built is not true....
The part you didn't mention here is Mosaic eliminating the 51% rule.
Planes, cars, homes all 20-55% overpriced.
For one... Not buying it! No pun! If MOSAIC does pass, Doubtful, you can bet a 1959 Piper Tri Pacer will be selling for 300K. Prices will go up so fast, No one will be able to afford anything close to being considered light sport! Not to mention, can you imagine how many 10 hour pilots there will be punching holes in the clouds? At 3000 AGL It'll look like Los Angeles Ventura Freeway rush hour traffic.
Electric Aircraft in Future ✅
Light sport airplanes are a pure rip off. A piece of shaped aluminum is way over priced. Half of these manufacturers take a life time to deliver a part of your kit.
Airplanes cost a lot because they have a lot of parts. Cut the parts down and the cost goes down a composite fuselage eliminates a lot of parts
Never in the history of Capitalism has something become cheaper due to automation. It just means more profit for the CEO.
You are out of your mind to think a certified plane will be cheaper. There are no examples of an experimental aircraft becoming a certified aircraft and the price decreasing.
Robot assy.and, as a commenter said, 3D printing really is the answer to lower costs.Greed isn't going anywhere but compititon is powerful.