Is Shimano making a massive mistake with Di2 and disc-only 105 groupset?
Vložit
- čas přidán 28. 06. 2022
- The new Shimano 105 12-speed Di2 groupset will not be available with rim brakes or mechanical shifting. But is this a bad thing, or just simply the advancement of technology? In our latest podcast George, Tony, Jack, Mat and Liam sit down to discuss the new groupset.
Check out our other podcast episodes here: road.cc/show/tags/roadcc-podc...
Our podcast partners LAKA are offering our listeners 30 days free bicycle insurance with the code: ROADCCPOD30. Voted best cycle insurance provider for the last four years running: no excess, no depreciation, no contract, no funky fine print and a five-star customer service: www.laka.co
⚫️ Other videos that might interest you
New Shimano 105 Di2 - Mechanical is DEAD
🎦 • New Shimano 105 Di2 - ...
⚫️ In this video
0:00 Introduction
(Video chapters)
⚫️ Check out our other channels
On the Web
▶️ road.cc
Instagram
▶️ / road.cc
Twitter
▶️ / roadcc
Facebook
▶️ /
Podcast
▶️ road.cc/tags/podcast - Sport
Campagnolo is suddenly looking very price competitive. Maybe bike manufacturers will start speccing more bikes with it on (like we’re increasingly seeing with SRAM)
Campagnolo need to sort out their range
Shimano's advantage is one of supply chain locations. SRAM is trying to follow a similar path but Campy's company is already highly "Eurocentric" and are not seriously trying to formulate a long term strategy to displace Shimano 105 as the go to entry level road group set for "serious road" riders. Campy's strategy is to build what it regards as the best and those looking for it must make the effort to acquire it. If Europe somehow becomes a center for high end carbon manufacturing available for retail products (like bike frames) then Campy will blossom again.
@@indonesiaamerica7050 centaur is priced at €550, and Chorus at €1100 in disc version. So as an upgrade they are actually now very competitive. OEM market, mostly in Asia, might not be the same, yes.
Centaur is really good value and a nice groupset. We may see it more in the OEM market now Shimano have a hole in their range.
In the long term, Shimano is much more interesting price speaking
Price point is all wrong £400 more than SRAM Rival AXS (presumably it’s competitor) - ignoring brand preference, SRAM looks so much better value for money.
Don't forget that Rival comes with a power meter, so you can add at least £400 to the cost of Shimano 150 Di2 if you want/need one.
Absolutely! I was planning on building a bike with 105 in the future but now that Shimano is forcing us to go in a direction we don't want my shimano loyalty will end.
I have no issue with the tech or movement to disc only. For me it's the price. I don't know who these cyclists with a spare grand are, because it certainly isn't me. A few years ago you could get a decent 105 bike for a grand, now it's double that, once this comes in it'll be £3k. Cycling is now more prohibitively expensive than ever.
But you're probably not a lawyer or dentist....
Buy a steel 90s mtb and put slicks on it, prohibit that. 👍🏿
Double? I am seeing 4000USD 105 bikes on Ribble, which is considered as an affordable brand. Not to mention most of these new 105 bikes don't even come with a full 105 assembly, some of them replaced 105 rotors and calipers with some unknown Chinese components to cut the costs down to 4000-5000USD
Give me a number for "a few years ago". Accounting for inflation 105 bikes (and brake and wheels offered) have not dramatically changed in price if at all since the 7000 series came out.
"Cycling is now more prohibitively expensive than ever."
No it's not. Choices are broader than ever and component choices are the same or lower when comparing like for like and factoring in overall inflation data. Total cost of ownership is probably lower because tires are slightly more expensive and last a heckuva lot longer than, say, ten years ago. That's been a consistent trend ever since Michelin and others started getting in to top level pro cycling sponsorship.
@@indonesiaamerica7050 when the CAAD12 came out, it stayed at a grand for nearly half its life span, the CAAD13 is £2,300. Yes you can get a supermarket bike for a couple of hundred, but if you want to actually cycle properly, getting a decent bike is so difficult. And if you're a young or new racer, you're being priced out. 105 5800 was a £700rrp groupset. This latest version has put another thousand on top of that. Yes there's choice, but is getting more and more expensive compared to people's earnings.
Own goal by Shimano in these times of austerity.
The group of cyclists with too much cash will always go top end, not mid range. The majority of cyclists who live in the real world, on a budget will not go near it.
105 is not affordable groupset for common people anymore, Tiagra is becoming new 105.
Cycling in general is becoming quite expensive hobby :(
Hopefully, when they update Tiagra to 11 speed it will cost slightly less than the old 105 (providing they don't make it Di2 only!)
Sadly so. I literally picked up running to reduce cycling mileage and costs...
For sure but nobody says that you have to buy the 105 di2
Why will it be more expensive when you already have a bike, esp if it is well equipped? There is no need to change or upgrade a bike ever other than maintenance parts change unless the bike is destroyed in a crash or stolen.
@@Fear.of.the.Dark. and what if you don't? a new comer would need to buy a bike, and all the other equipment that comes with it. the cost doesn't stop at the bike. it keeps going up after that.
What you said about junior and amateur racers being able to afford this is so true. I saved for months and used some of my student loan while living at home to get a bike with 105 which was £2200 all in. But now this is looking like £4000-5000. Which is pricing out the future of racers. - This has actually been evident recently with many race series(s) struggling to fill fields and cancellations everywhere when just 7 years ago you could barely get on to wait lists. Times are tighter and fees are increasing, as is the fuel to get to them and now the kit to do it on. 😞
Bruh, if you're taking loans to buy a bicycle, you're part of the equation to the problem as well. Middle-aged people with a lot of money to dispose of, buying top-tier bikes for a coffee ride; production shortage due to covid and factory lockdown in SE Asia; Marketing scam from manufacturers to get everyone onto disc brakes. Everything is driving the price up. I'd just sit and wait until the price to become reasonable.
Entry level race bikes are higher if you insist on a newish carbon fiber frame and carbon fiber rims. Maybe the problem is this idea that even entry level racers without the money to buy a motorcycle think they need to spend that much money on their first race bike. The cheapest carbon fiber Tarmac SL6 is being offered at $2000 USD right now. Nobody will suffer from taking that to any race below "elite" or professional level. And even a pro would have no problem in a pinch using that bike to train or even taken from a car because of a mid race mechanical problem with the bike they started with.
2nd hand rimbrake superbikes are going for peanuts by the people who fall for the propaganda by the industry with their discbrake push.
Its the best time now to go cycle if you are smart and you know where to search for bikes.
A few months back I got myself a CAAD12 full ultegra in mint condition for 500 euro by somebody who "upgraded" for a discbrake bike 🤑
I can tell you with certainty that a 105 DI2 aerobike will cost between 3k and 3.7k in pounds.
The certainty coming from being able to order them with an listed MSRP.
I can not disclose more though.
If Tiagra 11speed mechanical is the next step then its the new 105
The current Tiagra rear mech uses 11-speed pull ratio, so I think Shimano went 'yeah we'll upgrade it to 11-speed down the road'. So, no major tech changes there I guess. I've never noticed performance issues with mine, so maybe yeah, it'll become the 'new 105'.
£1730 at almost 3kg 😂😂
105 11 Speed rim brake over 500g lighter and £1060 less at RRP
Cycling = The New Golf 😂😂
Best part is road bikes with 105 di2 on them will more than likely come with alloy wheels... so with pedals probably close to 10kg
But remember this is progression
10kg is about the same as my 30+ year old, mid range steel road bike.
There are 3 major changes that made road bikes substantially ever more expensive, they are electronic shifting, disk brake and internal cable routing. Bikes nowadays brake much better and could be lightweight, but there is a premium to be paid for that, while in the past getting a lightweight bike at a reasonable price was really not a issue
@@scottyi9299 Bikes don't brake much better with disc brakes. Until last year, the biggest race in the world was (partly) won on a rim brake bike with excellent braking. The braking was actually so good that Pogacar used his rim brake bike for the high mountains, with long sinuous decends. That's how overrated disc brakes still are. Yes they are better, but they are overkill in most circumstances.
Spot on👍
@@Aeronwor but its AERO lmao... 🤣🤣🤣
It wasn't too long ago you could get a 105 bike for £1,700.....
we remember those good old days
It's mental isn't it!!!! Just a couple years back i found one of my mates a really nice Wilier with rim brake 105 r7000 from Wiggle Sale for £999. and honestly it became a super nice bike one he upgraded the wheels a year later... all in about £250 cheaper than just this groupset!
Did anyone forget that an electronic shifter can be jammed? Also why would I want to be dependable on electricity while the mechanical you don't need to charge anything,you can just ride your bike.
Next year's Tiagra will be 11spd and still rim brake. So we should still be able to maintain our current bikes. Failing that, AliExpress may get a visit
Yes its a big mistake in my view should offer mechanical 105 & rim brakes too.Electric gears are way to expensive.
But the 105 R7000 and R7020 are still in production, just don't know for how much longer.
I've built pretty much all of my bikes myself since the mid 70's, starting with Huret, Suntour, Shimano & now Campagnolo. None of my relatively modern frames accept disc brakes & the cost of group sets has just gotten much more expensive, its the price of chains & 11/12 speed cassettes that are really dear as they wear out. I'll stick with my 9 speed Veloce on my winter bike & Centuar red black on my Flandria, with trusty cables.
Talk about a tone deaf industry. Have you every seen a industry work so hard to shrink its customer base? We are all liveing in a high inflation world right now and don't need things going up for bells and whistles. Why not still offer a mechanical option for cost-effective saving? Plus let me see you buy a new di2 replacement for the older di2 products from 2010.
I’m excited to see Di2 come to the 105 level, but I think the price is too high. It needs to at least be competitive with Rival eTap AXS. Additionally, I’m disappointed that they don’t have a mechanical version as well for the people who don’t want to shell out the extra $ for electronic shifting. I recently got a used bike with (11s) Ultegra Di2, and I love it, but some of these 105 bikes are more expensive than I paid for my bike with previous generation Ultegra
Yea agree. Here they are musing that it’s become less expensive to manufacture electronic shifting; why then is the price of 105di2 twice the price of mechanical. From the point of view of a 105 customer, this choice seems very distasteful, it seems like Shimano is saying, “go buy Tiagra”…. and you know how important it is to people’s egos, what name is printed on the derailleur, it’s the first thing you look at coming up behind someone on the road :)
In other parts of the world mechanical groupset is still the majority by way bigger margin... even the rim brake mechanical groupset have bigger shares than Di2.
And that is exactly why Shimano will continue to produce and sell OEM groups to continue to fill those market niches.
Definitely not worth the money to me. I think in most cases, personally, you go with mechanical 105 as a starting performance level bike and your upgrade is either mechanical or Di2 Ultegra. Electronic 105 is awkwardly expensive for the category it is in, and I think entry-level cyclists looking for good performance still need the 105 mechanical option. I used to work in a shop, and I always strongly suggested that those really interested in a road bike invested in one with 105. Those who settled for Sora or Tiagra that I saw again later almost always came back to say they regretted it and wished they had gotten 105. I think now that won't be possible for a lot of people.
You don’t NEED electronic it’s the industry pushing it.
You deffo don't NEED it... but god damnnn its good.
@@joebob1994 once you've used it for a week, there's no going back.
@@joebob1994 the problem is this will clause sticker shock for new people getting into cycling. The amount of people getting into cycling is not high and this doesn’t help.
@@edwiser true dat sister
Yes you do
You can ride and race high end on mechanical, just saying. You feel much more embarrassed when your dropped with the latest kit. Worth noting.
Indeed. If I can ride my aluminum Allez with Ultegra 6500 and keep up with the rest of the folks in my group on their carbon Di2 and eTap bikes, why should I upgrade?
I think its important to remember that 105 has always been the receiver of 'trickle down tech'. So far, Shimano has not made 12spd mechanical so there is no tech to trickle down. R&D costs would be higher for 105, stocking and making parts for both mechanical and electronic would increase the cost for both if mechanical and electronic were made. It is a big shock for a 105 diehard such as myself to see new 105 nearly cost double the previous generation, but perhaps Tiagra will take the mantle of 'groupset of the people'. '105 for life' may need to be tweaked to '11spd for life' in my instance :).
The issue is that it will become more difficult to buy rim brake bikes anymore... not to mention the cost at the entry level!!!
Nonsense. You can still get 8, 9, 10 speed cassettes, likewise rim brakes will continue to be available.
Rim brake bikes may go...because who wants them?
I've been trying to upgrade out of my alloy and Tiagra bike into carbon with 11-speed. This just made that move so much harder for me. I've been priced out.
Wait for a tiagra 11 speed
Sensah goes brrrrrrrrrrt
Campagnolo Centaur?
Shimano 105 R7000 is still a good choice
This move to electronic only is a massive mistake imho. There are a lot of us for which our bicycls are our daily escape from being plugged in and whom have no interest in electronic groupsets even if they are "better" in every way.
I guess this is my line in the sand where I pick up my grumpy old man card!!
Bring on the second hand mechanical rim brakes bikes, cant wait to pick them up for a fraction of their cost.
Exactly. I'm all excited to buy a whole bunch of clearance 105 stuff and beat people up and down the mountains on my "old, outmoded... very light and functional" bike.
They are at risk of alienating some due to less options and higher cost. At some point they will lose customers.
Why, when you can still buy R7000 105 and will be able to do so for some time?
@@zodgzod not for lot longer, or for the lower prices, these will dry up fast.
@@TheRimBrakeGuy I read that they will be continuing to manufacture and sell R7000.
As a mountain biker, I really like disc brakes on road bikes. As a person that has 4 bikes in his life, the price of bikes have gone extremely high. The last bike I'm going to buy will be my dream DH bike, and after that I'm going to move to motorcycles, they considerably cheaper thst bicycles, especially if you compare with electric bikes (even if I would not buy one)
As a road cyclist, I love disc brakes on road bikes. Finally consistent, proper braking in all conditions.
probably in the future everything will adopt new tech. however for electronic shifting will still be long way to go. mainly because of the cost. not everybody who want a road bike shape need that kind of feature.
17:00 If wireless is 'cheaper to make', WHY IS IT NOW DOUBLE THE PRICE?
Well if Shimano have been "sensible" SRAM must have lost their minds because RIVAL is about £3-400 cheaper and comes with a power meter. And you have the option for blips (£90 disposable wireless blips is a bit of a crappy option but its an option).
So basic carbon bike with 105 will cost now no less then 4000-5000$ ... Rip 105!!!
Yes it is. A big mistake. Many of us final consumers/cyclist have loved for many years the classic 105 as the race groupset of the people. It's OK to provide a more affordable di2 version but do NOT remove the affordable mechanical 105. When Sram launched rival etap many shimano lovers were really happy that shimano had the true classic mechanical 105 but now they're removing that option. What tha... shimano don't do it!!
The price point is going to be the biggest hurdle for the 105 consumer. Is there enoughed room for another expensive group set. And I can hear it now. It's only a 105.
Claris is now the group set of the people 😂
There's also Sora and Tiagra. Afaik Tiagra 10x is the lowest group with optional hydraulic brakes.
But there will be a gap between mechanical and the electronic groups.
Will Shimano keep the mechanical 105? It will stay as spare parts. But also on new bikes?
Tiagra will certainly go to 11spd next year and it'll probably look a *lot* like mechanical 105 😁
I rode cat 1 on Claris in 2018 for a couple of races. It can be done!
Claris is the groupset of my kids!
So if you really want a 12 speed mechanical, with rim or disc, go with Campagnolo Chorus. 52-36, 50-34, 48-32, up to 11-34 cassette…
For way less than 12 speed 105!
I'm not putting up with their proprietary bullshit, I'm sticking with Shimano 11-speed mechanical because that's all I need.
@@yonglingng5640 Shimano are the masters of proprietary bullshit, they've been doing it since they got into road bikes in the 70's
I hate their shift lever design… Shimano mechanical levers are perfection in my view.
@@froggy0162 Also, most of Shimano's STI levers now no longer need an extension bar or tool bit to be torqued down thanks to a redesign in the bolt's angle and positioning on the shifter body.
Sensah Empire Pro go brrrrrrrrrrt, no need to stick with proprietary Italian crap.
I hate electronics nowdays. After using SRAM Red and Di2 for the past 5 years I finally gave up. I remember a time about to go on a group ride I got left out because my battery cried enough. Had to sit out that day. When traveling I'm always looking for the nearest place to charge my batteries. Then a cable went bad had to dig out the rut. I'm done with the hassles I went back to 105 R7000 mechanical. Life was been so good since I don't have to think of dead batteries or bad rusted wires. I learned to index my gears which was challenging but it made me one with the bike. I prefer the simple life now.
I would need a 11-25 or 12-28 for my smart trainer. I use the 18t cog for 80% of my ride. I think a lot of people would have the same needs and a cassette for this exists for 9s (14-25), 10s(13-25), and 11s(12-25). I hope Shimano realizes this.
You could also ask are certain framesets doing likewise by being Di2 compatible only?
Shimano, Specialized and co. don't understand inflation is comming in all western countries and will impact their sales for spring 2023. They should react by cutting their sale prices ASAP.
These people are actual expert? 105 are for the budget conscious crowds, how hard is it to understand that?
Does this also apply to 105 Di2? Compared to Ultegra and Dura Ace Di2, but also to mechanical 105 or Tiagra?
Way overpriced, and just something else that in 5 years time you won’t be able to fix because parts are not available, and the software won’t update because it’s not supported.
Riders will want it, because channels like this tell them they have to have it, or you’ll be 1/10th second slower on strava
yeah we're surely in charge of the development of road groupsets
That's how it works, a new product comes out and big channels talk about how innovative said product is, so they don't upset the free product they received for review
Ask Di2 10s users... bike is obsolete, no parts anymore...
I agree that the new 105 pricing is quite scary (and I paid for new Ultegra earlier this year).They are going to continue to offer 105 R7000, so I don't see the problem. If they retire 105 R7000, I expect they'll upgrade Tiagra to 11 speed.
You’re forgetting about GRX. It still has a mechanical option and the riders not racing are likely commuting or adventuring. GRX is almost perfect for that, even on a non-gravel bike.
Were these same criticisms levied at SRAM when Rival went electronic? I personally would like to hear about Tony’s aquarium.
SRAM Rival etap is £1200, Shimano need to charge less than that if they want riders to adopt 105 Di2 on mass!
The demand was there for more affordable electronic groupsets. SRAM obviously have had great success with SRAM Rival eTap, which has made electronic shifting more accessible for a lot more people. I think what is causing most controversy with 105 Di2 is that the price is still very premium, comparable to Campagnolo Record (mechanical) and not far short of SRAM Force eTap. I think many buyers were hoping for a truly affordable Di2 groupset but Shimano haven't delivered that, just a cheaper option than Ultegra Di2.
Maybe part of the issue is coinciding with COVID inflation and supply shortages. By only offering electronic and disc options, Shimano have consolidated their parts requirements with fewer options. Had there not been a global pandemic, we probably would have seen 105 Di2 at a cheaper price point and probably a mechanical 12 speed version offered already.
As for going disc only, this is very much a trend. We have to accept the rim brake is on its way out and groupset manufacturers can only supply so many variations. Many frame builders are only offering disc versions now so it is making less sense for groupset manufacturers to offer rim brake options.
I think Shimano will offer an 11-speed upgrade for Tiagra soon and this will take over the existing place of 105 mechanical. I have the 10-speed Tiagra groupset with hydraulic disc brakes on one of my bikes and it's a very capable, reliable and nice groupset to use.
In short... the market wants electronic shifting and disc brakes, I think the big issue with 105 Di2 is the price still being relatively high. SRAM Rival eTap looks even more competitive now.
I don't know if it's a "massive mistake," but there's a big problem with electronic drivetrains. They fail much sooner and aren't repairable when they do. With mechanical groupsets so long as you care for them you can ride them for decades. With electronic, you can wear out the nylon bits inside the derailleurs in a few years. At which time the new derailleur you need is no longer available or compatible because it's been upgraded. When you pay so much for something that's supposed to be so high-tech it's very disappointing to have to keep replacing it.
Great discussion.
I happy on 9100 mercancal rim brake works a dream no need for di2 feel the industry is forcing me to use disk brakes which is a pain all my current bikes are rim with alloy rims
Guys, I have a question: If I’m now using r7020 just fine, should I stock spare parts like levers in case they go obsolete?
Manufacturers have increased prices a lot, but Shimano didn’t get their share of the increase on 11s, with 12s Di2 signal is clear, they take back their shares. Also Di2 is cheaper to produce, but a bit more expensive to develop according to Shimano own account (source: French presentation dura-ace/ultegra questions session).
It’s option I’m pleased to see.. From a personal perspective I like disc and electronic
Some frames a elec only, so this creates another build option
I have just recently gotten into the road biking world myself. So far I have been almost astonished at the price and sheer lack of availability of entry level low to lower mid tier bikes. It almost had me considering not getting into it all at given the price I had to pay. Less than a year ago I got into a Tiagra level bike plus some basic gear and it quite literally cost me close to what my used Sportbike motorcycle cost me which quite literally baffles me. I just don't see the justification for the prices of these current mid to higher tier groupsets.
I think they are making a mistake DI2 disk only. Give them 2 years to come up with something to go back to a mechanical alternative.
they may continue the cable line in the lower model. They often use older Ultegra lines and rebrand them.
Big question: what now for GRX?
But... what's the performance and price comparison vs SRAM Rival?
Manual ultegra R8000 is half price of this ... obvious choice
Not really, as it's just a lighter version of R7000 105.
I will simply stick with Sram Rival22 which you can still get in rim brake. Sram Rival 22 shifts as well as mechanical Red 22 of a few years back....in other words perfectly.
The bike industry has gotten very greedy sadly. Good news is...there are still used bikes on the market. Sram Rival 22 isn't cost prohibitive.
I am a mechanical engineer. About 3 years ago I purchased a Cervelo R5 with Di2...in part as an experiment. I sold the Di2 and put Chorus on the bike and ultimately parted the whole thing out.
I have the last mech version of 105 and spare parts are nowhere to be found, in shops or online. I've been waiting over a year for brake pads, rotors, hoods etc. It's a slap in the face to Shimano customers who struggle to keep their bikes on the road while the company put their resources into vanity projects.
Change is hard for people but in my experience it's almost never a bad thing.
Well, depends on the purpose for the change. If it is to improve something, then yes, change is good. Take tubeless tyres or disc brakes for example.
But when the change is made for the sake of making a change and filling company's pockets with money, then it is no good - i.e. Apple using new proprietary screws with every new phone, super expensive "mid-range" groupsets, etc.
Should have just rebranded 11 speed ultegra Di2 at a lower price and offered rim brake.
shimano don't seem to like having two Di2 groupsets on the go concurrently
Bingo 👍
Some of us don't see where any controversy lies. Shimano makes stuff to sell. It does its R&D work and it assesses what to release and when based on commercial considerations. The 'groupset for the people' moniker is a bit high handed no matter who uses it. Specifically, the vast majority of people in the world don't give a hoot and/or couldn't possibly afford to spend that kind of money on leisure. Also, the percentage of riders who race and for whom the fastest slickest shifting available or insist on rim brakes is an even smaller proportion of 'the people'. As someone who started riding with 5sp downtube friction shifters, I'm looking at a scene that's better than it's ever been in terms of choice, quality and useability. At the end of the day, where luxury goods are concerned, fools and their money are easily parted.
manufacturer who releases rim brakes will excel.
you say that, but the reason manufacturers are concentrating on disc brake bikes is because those are the bikes that sell
@@roadcc Only because the consumer has been given no choice in the matter.
I have been thinking about this for a day, new 105 isn't groupset of the people anymore. Tiagra is. TIGOTP!
not sure that acronym is gonna catch on
Nothing wrong with the 105 group set. It's called standardizeation and progress.
Im not buying new frame just to have dics, they can progress as much as they like, i'll spend money elswhere, easy
Decent 105 specced bikes have gone from £1500 quid ten years ago to £4500 today and you guys can't seem to see any real issue with that? The industry, like society in general, has become plagued with corporate greed, ensuring working people are getting less and less for their money. If the cycling press wasn't so deeply in bed with the manufacturers maybe there would be more youtube videos explaining how people can still get performance without subscribing to the ludicrous pricing.
Obviously the disc brake argument is rather repeated. There are advantages & disadvantages to both systems. But brands stopped investing in rim brake tech and if you are buying a new bike you want to invest in a bike you can get parts for or resell easier d.g selling a 10spd bike in a 12spd market is not easy. All the marketing has been around the advantages of disc bikes so while I have reservations that advantages of disc brakes out weigh the disadvantages for me personally if I brought a new bike it would still be a disc brake bike. I agree the bike market has moved away from producing bikes that hit the sweet spot of performance / cost ratio that suits amateur racers that know their rear mech might get mangled in the 1st bend of the Tuesday night crit. The pro quality frame with 2nd or third tier groupset are getting more and more expensive at rates even higher than our current scary inflation figures. I remember getting an anodised TCR (as used by ONCE) with DA groupset & Mavics original Krysiums (also used by the Pro's) for well under £2k.
If you really care about second hand prices for your bike, you can do the math and you'll see that your disc brake is at least a 1000 more expensive than any similar performing rim brake bike. So good luck selling your disc 3000 brake in 5 years for 1500, while your 2000 rim brake will be sold for sure for 500. So what bike has the biggest write-off...
@@l.d.t.6327 your prices are well off. A TCR Advanced 2 rim vs disc is about £300 difference while one shop is selling a DI2 12sp Pinerrelo F rim for £600 more than disc (this difference is due to wheels as spec's wheels on disc bike only available in disc do they doec a more costly rim brake wheel). I agree that disc bikes have pushed up bike prices but it has also pushed up rim bikes - a bit like how more expensive cafe coffee prices have increased tea prices. The difficulty selling without making a huge loss is more a factor of the overall climb in prices. Someone locally was selling a new Ribble aero bike with DA for over £9k. While unused that's a lot of money for a bike with out a warranty etc.
Margins on mass produced products such as 105 have probably always been good and they have only gotten better with the colluded corporate price raising excuses/responses to factors that created supply constraints, with the resulting economic price inflation pressures. A great excuse to raise prices even if the product is probably even cheaper to produce. Does anyone really believe bike prices are ever coming down when inflation pressures cease?
Campy's customer base is?......Smarter??? I'm running Campy SR/R 12 spd mechanical rim brakes. Super cheap compared to all electronic groupset now. Zero problems with mechanical. Zero. Plus, the shifting IS incredible!!!
Good discussion though, channels like this need to confront the cycling marketing machine more often. It builds your credibility.
Disk only ??? No deal
Jesus wept, after listening to this I've realised how much I love cycling and fucking hate it at the same time.
Di2 105 doesn't interest me. Price is too high, parts are too heavy to cost so much. If 105 11-speed goes away and Tiagra 11-speed does launch in a year or so, that's where I will go from my current Ultegra 6500. My bigger concern is whether I will still be able to buy a bike with external cable routing.
Campag Chorus 12speed rim brake, mechanical. For £1200 fitted, the new Groupset of the People.
YES
Yes.
Not because of the disc-only approach, but because of the ridiculous price and high weight.
These companies are pricing themselves right out of future bike riders. I went back to rollerblading myself.
It’s discussing when companies have monopoly like this. Totally not worth the money, I don’t see bike group set is anymore complicated than a PS5.
Price wise it's absolutely ridiculous, more expensive than ultegra di2 hydro 11 speed by a long shot. And what happens when you crash 300 for a shifter ?
Upgrading is what I want but I’m looking elsewhere now.
Shameno! They just lost a customer of 20 years plus from me. So long, thanks for all the fish, my wallet votes to buy from elsewhere!
Yes it's a terrible misstep. Sensah will now eat Shimano's lunch.
They should just have Tiagra be 12s mechanical, 105 12s electronic, Ultegra 12s mechanical and Dura-Ace 12s electronic. Only 1 line of cassette/derailleur dimensions to develop, only 2 lines of mechanical parts to develop and only two lines of electronic parts to develop. DA and Ultegra are basically the same minus the slight weight difference. So, anyone who wants the best electronic group will want DA anyway. And anyone who wants the best mechanical will have that option with Ultegra. And anyone who wants a more affordable electronic group is happy to have 105 over Ultegra. And anyone who really just wants to save money will be happy with Tiagra. The guy trying to save money won’t care if it’s Tiagra or 105 especially if the hearing options are the same. There’s too much electronic variety and not enough overall variety.
No. Utterly sensible decision .
There will be a mechanical 12sp Tiagra group I think - as there is the Deore one in the MTB world.
They can release 100 new group sets, still can’t get last year’s tech.
It's simple: this move is not a move that will encourage more cyclists to take up the sport and raises the barrier of entry for many. The old guy in the blue shirt is ignoring those people. As bikes get more expensive, fewer people will be inclined to buy-in. Wages are not keeping pace with inflation around the world. Blue Shit and Glasses Old Guy is ignoring that point. Maybe He doesn't care about that segment. As for Shimano's motivation--Blue Shirt Old Guy is again neglecting much. It's not just about if there's a market for 105 mech. Shimano can also make the decision to bin 105 mech just to minimize the number SKUs they have. Blue Shirt Old Guy is not a critical thinker. He's ignoring a lot.
Lest anyone forget, the idea that electronic groups are better than mech groups is a purely subjective point of view, based entirely on whatever metrics someone uses for comparison or choose to ignore. Did anyone stop to consider how much it costs to replace, say, a Di2 RD compared to a mech RD if you crash? You guys focus on weight a lot: why are you ignoring the weight difference between mech and Di2? Does shifting a few milliseconds faster mean anything if you're not racing? Does the ease of shifting with Di2 over mech really make difference? That might save energy equal to a quarter of a Snickers bar? Other than easier initial setup and aesthetics (purely subjective), what advantage does wireless or semi-wireless have? None.
No one is paying any attention to or caring at all about new cyclists and what the unnecessary increase in prices is doing for those cyclists. This new group is over 3 times the price of mech 105. That's a huge difference. Oh well. Those potential cyclists don't pay your bills or fund Old Blue Shirt's retirement. Screw those cyclists, right?
And please, don't do the "Well, all the tech will trickle down to Tiagra" BS. Tiagra is not at all 105, and it's anything but guaranteed that Shimano will bring out a Tiagra that is equal to 105.
With the 105 di2 shimano can now discontinue ultegra
What the hell is that in the glass tank in Tony's house?
shrimps
OF COURSE NOT!
Did you guys consider 12s being unable to accurately get bike tuned correctly with the limited spacing with cable/mechanical instead of electronic ?
Campagnolo did it successfully, even 13s mechanical on Ekar
Shimano mtb 12 speed mechanical says hello.
Look at their only real competitor, SRAM. SRAM dropped mechanical shifting, and they’re only gaining OE marketshare, which accounts for the majority of sales volumes at this point. Rim Brakes and Mechanical shifting are going to simply move into niche high end stuff, or cheap garbage.
"they’re only gaining OE marketshare"
They're gaining market share because Shimano was struggling to meet the demand whereas SRAM were boasting that they have enough stock to full fill orders.
@@channul4887 SRAM was gaining substantial market share before COVID and the supply chain issues came about. Simply looking at how the major OE’s were speccing builds from 2016-2019 shows that.
@@RyonBeachner "manufacturer's incentives" is the term you're looking at there.
@@channul4887 My bad, I forgot that incentivizing your potential clients to purchase your products isn’t a valid sales tactic.
@@RyonBeachner Just as a reminder, this was the point you was making: "SRAM dropped mechanical shifting, and they’re only gaining OE marketshare".
They were gaining marketshare because of supply issues and OEM incentives, not because of them dropping mechanical shifting. Hope it clicks.
Say goodbye to the cheap enthusiasts bike, say hello to a frameset and Aliexpress.
It is absolutely weird how Shimano is acting here. Usually companies will add cheaper options their successful product lines over time to broaden the customer base, and add new product lines at the top of the range every couple of years to have a „new hot thing“ for the people that want to spend more.
Shimano is doing the opposite, making their previously cheap lines more premium, forcing people to „downgrade“ to a lower product line like Tiagra to get the same price range as before. Boggles the mind.
Next version Tiagra will be the next every mans groupset.
They make a big mistake - yes
What the f are we supporting this kind of pricing, you could buy 2 new bikes for that price.🤭😂
I think they should of had rim brake still as they did with ultegra, there are a lot of rim brake bikes which will need upgrading at some point and now they will not be able to upgrade. To be honest the price is so high I think most people will just upgrade to ultegra if they was going to get this. Just a shame really as 105 was a solid upgrade but now it's way out the price range of most people now.
So Shimano offer electronic 105 at increased cost. Buy Tiagra, Sram or Campagnolo. I don't understand the negativity . Vote with your feet. Shimano aren't making anyone buy anything. First World problem.
No more mechanical 105 is terrible 😢 😞 😪 😔 😫 💔!
No
Every hobby gets expensive the nicer the gear gets...