Is Susan A Problem? (Book Spoilers!) | Chronicles of Narnia
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- čas přidán 27. 02. 2017
- The Chronicles of Narnia, the Problem of Susan Pevensie, CS Lewis, and 'adult' as a term of praise.
CS Lewis gets a lot of stick for his treatment of female characters, and Susan Pevensie in particular, but is it deserved? Well, we're going to take a look at a letter Lewis wrote about Susan and her fate, and talk about faith, Aslan and allegories. Also adulthood, and the meaning thereof.
(The Problem of Susan, of course, being a Neil Gaiman story. Kind of a weird one to be honest.)
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"But some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again." - CS Lewis.
Yes, fairy tales have such a deep message inwoven into their more obvious one.
And if you're very very blessed, living them.
not really.. only old retire people would..
@@campkira Lol and sadness at you thinking only retired old people would appreciate fairy tales.
Never stopped
It always struck me how terrible the funerals would be for Susan. It'd be a funeral with a dozen caskets. The media would pick up on the 'young woman who lost everything'.
That is a huge drawback to the perspective The Last Battle takes. It's focused on Narnia's apocalypse and on union with Aslan's Country and that's *great* but like... *one* world is having its apocalypse, not all the world. Sometimes when I think about people I've lost, I think about how it wouldn't hurt if everyone died at the same time, but that's not how the world works, sooo we (and Susan) are stuck with this.
Holy shit, you're right! I've never thought of that before. That is really dark actually. I mean sure, they all went to Aslan's country but Susan doesn't know that. She just lost her entire family. For her all of this is absolutely horrible and none of the others even acknowledge that.
hj l Because Lewis went insane after losing his wife and no longer thought along the realms of reality.
hj l I always imagined that at that moment, Susan would know where they went
Neil Gayman takes that route in the problem Of Susan but is that a worst level she to identify the bodies and Professor Hastings / Susan Describes seeing flies and Edmunds decapitated body .
What really bothers me about Susan, is that she lived through World War 2, was warped to an alternate fantasy world where she grew up, and then was returned back to earth where she was back in her child's body. I can't even imagine the trauma one would suffer from if they grew up then were turned back to a child, much less the trauma from hopping between worlds and seeing the horrors of war. I interpret Susans denying of Narnia to be less of a "trying to be grown up" thing and more of a way to cope with the crazy things she's been through
And as a bonus, all the people she shared that experience with were killed in a freak accident.
This is what had me through a loop with Legend Of Zelda's Ocarina Of Time, and Majora's Mask. It is disturbing what Zelda did to link.
@@AimlessSavant thing is though Link as a child was the one that went through all of the adventures in ocarina of time he was never an adult 7 years passed in a blink of an eye all that changed was his body
It is stated at the end of the first book that they remember it more as a dream or faded memory than as if they are mentally 30yr olds tossed back into children’s bodies
@@ciannacoleman5125 I imagine it would still have a profound effect on them
Worth pointing out that Susan is a middle class girl in her mid teens who has just left school and living in late `40`s/early `50`s Britain. Its implied that she isn`t exactly academically inclined so what exactly do you suppose the society of the time expects her to do, look for a husband perhaps? Also worth pointing out that Susan dosn`t die with everybody else but lives on in Engand afterwards for an unknown number of years, perhaps being still alive in the present day as an elderly woman.
So perhaps she had a gift that none of the others got, a long fruitful and happy life in this world with lots of children and grandchildren.
Finally, someone noticed that. I'm not sure about how academically inclined Susan was/wasn't, but I did notice that, if what Jill said was true, then it's true she hasn't really grown up. What she is doing, in the eyes of the other friends of Narnia, is swapping one fantasy (Narnia) for an more mature fantasy (lipstick, nylons, party invitations) as opposed to some job or responsibility. Still, I'm not sure if it's actually true. Thing is, the actual lives of the Friends of Narnia on earth, is generally skated over. The closest we see to that is in the Magicians Nephew, the story of Digory Kirke. Even then he and his friend Polly Plummer, are sent to another realm almost immediately by Andrew Kirke, Digory's uncle, who already has a pair of magical rings he acquired from... somewhere. Point is, we just don't know the characters very well at all. Ironically, the character's we know best are Edmund and Eustace, the darker characters. So, Susan could actually be almost anybody.
I always thought the same thing. I thought Susan was lucky that she didn't believe in Narnia because she got to live a long and fruitful live instead of having it cut short at 17 as Lucy did. And who has really been able to live a full and fruitful life at 17?
She was literally the only survivor in her family after a senseless train accident that wasn't even related to the war. I'm pretty sure her life will not be a happy one for a good majority of it. Maybe she'll get there eventually, but she certainly wasn't there right after being orphaned and having her siblings, to whom she was very close even when caught up in worldly trappings, cruelly ripped away from her. Oh, she certainly believed in Aslan after that, mark my words. But she was probably bitter and hateful for a long time, and denied Aslan every chance she got, even though her spirit was crying out for reconciliation.
Yeah, how could you say this about best girl?
@@donttrustmeimagemini8223 but Lucy and the other siblings had 15 extra years in narnia
Susan was always the character I saw myself as. She was an older sister, like me, the logical one who was a sort of opposite to Lucy, like me. So when everyone else died and she was left behind, I was heartbroken and felt betrayed. Then I read the quote at the beginning of the first book, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" in the dedication and it all made much more sense. Susan was the adolescent who wanted to be an adult. But one day, she would learn to put the fear of childishness behind her and embrace Narnia once again.
I just wish we got to see that story. It would have undoubtedly been my favorite book, because Susan so often was shoved to the side and I _hated_ that as someone who saw myself as her.
Maybe I'll write Susan's story someday. She deserved to have her story told. It's unfortunate CS Lewis never got to tell it himself.
Please do! You hit the nail on the head with that comment, and since you have such a good understanding of the material, I bet you'd write a satisfying conclusion to Susan's story that CS Lewis would approve of. I'd love to read it someday!
@@sethzarandona2325 Awe, thanks so much! I may end up writing it someday. Susan was and is a character I am very personally connected to. To complete her story myself would be something both daunting and fulfilling, as someone who always wanted to see her story completed.
@@jennyraylen8410 do it! Write it in installments!.
You can try but it will not be a true despiction of her story. Only the author was allowed to give her a proper finished.
I'll read it. Just don't do the Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland soft-sequel retrospective story rediscovery route. Susan's lifetime has room for a new story.
Holy crap, I just realized that the story of Susan's grief over losing her entire family would be a powerful story... But I understand why Lewis wouldn't want to write that for a children's series.
Well author Neil Gaiman had a go in a short story "The problem of Susan". Interesting plot but it has issues.
He was actually planning to write Susan’s story but died before he cpuld
@@elliemegel2846 If you know something about Lewis's life then you might have some idea as to why he may have stopped writing Narnia stories before his death. If you watch the movie "Shadowlands" you might get a few clues although the movie is inaccurate in places
I've been rewatching the Disney movies and they added a bit to Susan's character that I think fits perfectly with her attitude towards Narnia. As Prince Caspian is starting, we see the siblings struggling to live life in the real world one year after their first Narnian adventure. The kids all want to go back and Susan, ever the realist, is trying to convince them that they need to accept they aren't going to and start actually living in the real world.
Of course, that's the exact moment the kids are pulled back into Narnia, and Susan is just as happy to be there as everyone else. But later on, Susan is talking to Lucy and reveals that all this time she had been yearning to go back to Narnia as much as her siblings. She'd just been hiding it. And because Susan is the most pragmatic of the children, she's already understood what hasn't even occurred to anyone else: that this visit isn't going to be forever either. And true to that Aslan tells her and Peter at the end of the story that this is their last visit to Narnia.
Aslan told the kids they needed to learn to live in the real world, but none of them truly let go of Narnia. They all still met frequently and discussed Narnia with everyone else who had been there...except for Susan. I don't think it's too farfetched to imagine that Susan had been so heartbroken by being told she'd never come back to Narnia that her mind may have tried to convince her it had all been makebelieve as a way of dulling the ache. I think this would go in line with Carol's own journey about feeling like adulthood required you to "act grown-up" only to later realize true maturity was doing the exact opposite.
I think the key was that Aslan told her that she wouldn't be returning to Narnia. That may have affected her to turn away from reminiscing about 8 years or so in Narnia. They grew up in Narnia but none of them got married there, though they had suitors. My take is that she more than the others wanted to see her parents again, and ended up in heaven with them.
Sad
That's a really sad way of looking at things
I always felt Susan's arch was meant to be something like the prodigal son from the Bible, since so much of Narnia was based on Christianity. She may have been astray when her siblings die, but she was always meant to come back home to Narnia.
True but I still think Lewis could've done a better job presenting that.
The thing is that The Last Battle was a really bloated book especially in the final act. The primary conflict of the story is resolved in the 2/3rd of the book, before it hard pivots into an apocalypse story where all the major players of the series show up out of nowhere to wrap things up at breakneck speed. Reducing Susan's absence to a throwaway sentence was out of concern for time, not lack of care per se. Making Susan just there normally would have been far easier but Lewis knew that Susan was more complicated than that and stuck with her being absent despite not having enough time in the current plot to properly explore it. Really, Lewis should have split the Tashlan story and the Apocalypse story into two books; and give the character reunion/finale sufficient room for exploration.
@@samwallaceart288 I think you have a good point with splitting the book. That might have helped some things story-wise. However, I think that Lewis was going for numerical symbolism with 7 books, as 7 is a significant number in the Bible.
he want her to be more realitic... hence why it too much for him... and people don't get when real is too real and made it not fun..
Ya she said he became a catholic when he was 32 so im pretty sure this was i mean look at the lion the witch and the wardrobe Aslan is represemted as Jesus Christ sacrificing himself and then coming back. Narnia gives me a really sad and weird feeling when i read the books or watch the movies its a feeling of emptyness and its just really erie when you think abt it especially in prince caspian how its been a year for them since they came back to earth then coming over to narnia they see their former kingdom is in ruins and its been 1000 years since honestly its prob just really good writing
"Once a King and Queen of Narnia, will always be a King and Queen of Narnia!" ~Aslan (The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe)
I'm just thinking, maybe Aslan really intended for Susan to live because if she dies now she can't be with Aslan and her family... Maybe it's Aslan's way of taking care of Susan in hopes that someday she will start believing again and will be able to come beside him and her family...
exactly my thoughts! I think Susan didn't believe because she wanted to assimilate in the real world and be like the other girls her age, who at that time were focused on rising in society and marrying well, but after the death of her family I imagine she used those memories of Narnia and found comfort in them and in the hope of seeing them again
I believe that was in C.S. Lewis’ letter to a fan asking about Susan, that perhaps with the extra time allotted her, she would turn back to Narnia, ie be saved once again
So is it like Aslan putting Susan through a Jobian (as in the story of Job) scenario? Theme-wise that is, not exact parallels.
Aslan: Susan, you've stopped believing in me. Watch seven of your closest friends and family die, attend their funerals and then ruminate on how you've totally failed and maybe I'll let you join them some day. Have a good rest of your life.
Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously, it's been years since I've read the books) but at any point did Aslan say that he caused the train crash? I thought he was just letting them know that they had died and now they got to live in his land. I mean, I know plenty of people have the fatalistic attitude that literally everything that happens is God's will, but that sort of takes away from a lot of the choices made by Lewis' characters, the whole getting to choose good and evil thing.
That aside, I absolutely love the idea that Susan's character arc just took more time and she wasn't gone forever like Lewis's quotes in this video suggested.
personally i feel like it would have been a little unfair if susan had died with the rest. she lived through the horrors of wwii with greater awareness than lucy and ed (and maybe even peter), she was put back into her child's self body after spending lifetime as an adult in snap, was often antagonized by her siblings for being more of a realist than them, and then she tried to move on with life unlike them. it must have been so hard to go through all of that. to add then dying young seems a little unfair to me. but then again, i cannot imagine how heartbroken she must have been seeing everyone she loved die on train crash just like that. i think we all need to cut susan some slack.
Susan's future story also sounds like a great novel/movie on its own. Her whole family dies and now she has to find herself and possibly begin to believe again. Then, when its finally time for her to die, she is reunited with her whole family.
Ooo good point
It makes a lot of sense why she's without her family if she was on the tree and with everyone knows she would have died too but was back on Earth
I always felt so awful for Susan., because according to the book aside from Polly Diggory and Jill who she probably didn’t really know. She lost her cousin all of her siblings and her parents cause the book mentions them seeing their parents in Aslan’s country cause they were on the same train that crashed. She basically lost her entire family that’s gotta really psychologically mess her up.
In my mind, the problem of Susan isn't "lipstick and nylons", its that Susan being left alone in a world where LITERALLY HER ENTIRE FAMILY ARE DEAD, is seen as a good and fitting ending and NONE of her family seem concerned about her. They're happy to be together in Aslan's country and no-one even stops to ask "will Susan be okay on her own?"
That plus a lot of Aslan's lessons seem to be along the lines of, "Do as I say and don't stray outside what I want for you." It's like a parent controlling every aspect of their child's life. Frankly, I find the slavish and unquestioning devotion most of Narnia shows him to be deeply unsettling. C.S.Lewis didn't exactly do subtlety or nuance well at all. Every metaphor and allegory is beaten over the reader's head hard enough to leave a dent and every independent path is depicted as debased and evil in some regard or another. The only 'good' or at least friendly outsiders I can name are the under-dwellers in The Silver Chair after they've been freed.
@@Archris17 weren't the Chronicles (I read this somewhere and was told too) written as a reflect on the Bible. So as you say "don't stray from the path" makes me think of "follow what God's plan/laws," so maybe that is where it comes from.
Just a thought.
@@Archris17 Well Aslan is the creator. He gets some leeway because without him... nothing!
I also think it works within the story. The people of Narnia were literally there when Aslan created them, so loyalty to him is understandable.
I guess that's what atheists deserve🙈
@@ahhmm5381 since Aslan created them and didn't give them a choice (to exist or not) he shouldn't be asking for anything and they shouldn't owe him
Was talking about this with a friend. We were thinking that if Susan were a boy, the superficial trappings of adulthood would perhaps have been cigarettes and fast cars instead of nylons and parties.
And Sideburns. And Dapper Dan.
@@danieldishon688 I don't want fop goddamnit I'm a Dapper Dan man!
National service, more like.
Mustache. Its all about the mustache.
Still would've included parties, I think.
I think Susan does have her own part to play in the Narnia story. Peter is the High King like you said. He is the brave and noble leader. Edmund is the traitor redeemed. Lucy believes in Narnia because she has the heart of a child. That is why she could see Aslan in Prince Caspian even when the others could not. Susan is, in a sense, Lucy's opposite. If Lucy believes unconditionally in Narnia and Aslan and the magic of that world, Susan is the skeptic....the realist....the one whose mind clings to logic and facts rather than imagination. It didn't help that during the first two films, they were literally in the middle of a war....she was sent away from her mother in the first film....her father was serving in the war, and then she and her siblings go to Narnia and find themselves caught up in their own war against the White Witch. As the oldest daughter, its understandable that in those very difficult times, one would find themselves forgetting about fairy tales and imagination. You could see this even from the first movie. Even though she admits to the Professor when she and Peter go to him for advice after Lucy tells them about Narnia that of her two youngest siblngs, Lucy is the one who would never lie, she can't wrap her head around the fact that there is a magical land tucked away in the wardrobe filled with fauns and talking animals and an evil witch. Of course she would think it ludicrous. Even when she is in Narnia herself, she doesn't really want to accept what the Beavers (and indeed her own eyes) are telling her. That this magical world IS real and that she and her siblings are destined to fulfill Aslan's prophecy and rule it.
I always mix up Susan Pevensie and Susan Walker - both second of four children with an older brother (the leader) and a younger sister (the dreamer/prophet) and brother; both focused on the material rather than ideas, and so serving as the voice of common sense and practicality. Susan Walker is in the real world, where her nature is an active asset; Susan Pevensie is dealing with the spiritual world, where her ties to the material are a distraction, or a liability instead.
@@rmsgrey That is actually a really good comparison. Susan Walker often is described as being in "a native mood" when she is acting like a grown up.
I really don't think that CS Lewis was being anti-women or anything, but rather was showing that Susan had lost sight of what had once mattered a great deal to her? Or just had thought herself too 'mature' for her childhood. It's not anti-women, but rather anti someone growing up and forgetting the importance of dreams and innocence and childlike wonder 😢 I think it's a bit like the whole Peter Pan idea of adults being too serious and proper (and even boring)!!!
@@embracedchimera5886 Ummm, terribly sorry if I'm wrong, and I understand your point, but I don't believe Susan was abused? She turned her back on her childhood and on God in favour of materialistic things, that's the point Lewis was making. He was making a metaphor for all the people in the world who lose sight of what truly matters in favour of wealth and popularity and other material things.
Maybe that was the intended takeaway but Lewis made the unfortunate decision to tie Susan's interest in materialistic things to her exploration of her sexuality and femininity. Regardless of what the original intent was, that's just wrong.
Right. Like if for some crazy reason he had chosen Peter he probably would have described it as being obsessed with ties and briefcases. The things that in his time represented male adulthood.
@@sarahcb3142 Which is essentially the problem. Because Lewis' intended point was that Susan became frivolous and materialistic and forgot what was really important but the way he went about making that point ties frivolity and femininity, female gender expression, together saying basically that they're the same thing. That's when it becomes sexist. I don't think he intended it that way but it doesn't change the fact that it is. Mostly I just think its a case of his old british 40s white man showing. Its the same way my grandpa doesn't understand why black face is bad. He's not maliciously racist, he's just old and this is a thing he grew up with. He doesn't grasp why it is deeply offensive to black people.
Technically it is a metaphor for losing faith in Christ but this works too
Actually, I think it was merciful that Susan stayed alive. That means she has a chance to change her life and still get to Narnia. If she had died with everyone else, she truly would have been lost.
If she still Believe in narnia
Merciful? What kind of mercy is it to have to attend the funeral of your three siblings, guardian and childhood best friends? That's not kind. That's cruel and I'd think would drive her further from Aslan, not closer.
@@BadWolf739Yes, for some people tragedy moves them away from belief but for others it's a wake up call. Her belief and understanding of Aslan was pretty strong when she was young so there's a good chance she would eventually seek his comfort and turn back to him. If she does this, she would know where her family is and she'll know what she needs to do to see them again. If she had died with her family in the mindset she was in at that time, she would have been separated from them forever and that's cruel. Staying alive gives Susan a choice and a chance.
@@heatherL4834 Yes some people absolutely seek solace in religion. The difference is that most people who lose a love one didn't have them personally smited by god. If they did, they would not go to their loved one's destroyer for comfort. It's kind of where Lewis' metaphors start to collapse. I am aware that he believed in Christianity as though it were real but that's a very different thing from being literally in front of those mythological figures. By having the Pevensie's have a literal connection with "god" instead of just the faithful one that Lewis had a lot of the metaphors become stretched to breaking point.
@@heatherL4834 Yes, Aslan's love is so very conditional isn't it?
I've always wondered about this and why she wasn't there. Thanks for clearing this up!
I read in one essay in a book called _The Chronicles of Narnia and Philosophy: The Lion, the Witch, and the Worldview_ in which a critic described Susan Pevensie as an "apostate." I can see how that can be interpreted. After watching this video though, I am now wondering if Susan ends up being the narrator of these books. It has been years since reading the books, so I could be wrong, but an intriguing idea would be that Susan collected these stories and wrote them down for an intended readership, assuming we keep the author, C. S. Lewis, and the narrator of the books separate.
Like she is the child left in the Pied Piper of Hamelyn.
Thank you for stating this because a lot of people think Susan wasn't allowed into Narnia because she was too much into being a lady and feminine things. They think it was an attack on womanhood and being a sexual being, but its not. C.S. Lewis was trying to show how its ok to grow up (you pretty much have to due to time), but do not forget what its like to be a child. Never lose your sense of wonder and heart. Don't grow up to care about things that have no real value and will leave you feeling empty. I actually got into graduate school for psychology based on my essay of the same topic. So yeah, C.S. Lewis is dear to my heart and so is Susan's journey. I just wish he had the time to elaborate on her story after the last book. I'm sure Susan's path back to Narnia would have been an interesting one.
Yeah I'm 26 but I still enjoy watching cartoons meant for kids like Transformers, MLP, etc... I used to look down on kid stuff as a teen but as an adult I don't care anymore, I'm gonna enjoy my life and if that includes things from childhood
I think your point about the arrested development is rather apt. Correct me if I'm wrong, since though I read the book several times as a kid, The Last Battle was probably the one I read the least and I haven't revisited them since, sadly. But I seem to recall them, in-book, mentioning something about Susan spending all her time wishing she was as old as she now was and would spend the rest of her life attempting to stay that age. Even as a child, I took that to mean the age where you're in love with the childhood/adolescent idea of adulthood rather than actually being adult. Which ties in well, I think, to your point. :) ^^
I think there's some truth to that. Susan probably left Narnia for the last time around her pre-teens, which for many kids is a dreaded in-between zone where you're too old for childhood games but too young for the privileges of adulthood. And for many kids teenagers/young adults seem like the coolest people in the world.
THIS! This is exactly how I always saw it! I honestly was surprised when I found out there was this big controversy because I had always interpreted it as her becoming materialistic and atheistic. In the end of The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe and in The Horse and His Boy she is adult, beautiful and it is never treated like a bad thing. But she still believed and was living her life morally, in our world she lost sight of what is important and forgot. Even "forgetting" Narnia is something of a metaphor for forgetting the moral/christian ideals she learned in Narnia and I don't think is necessarily supposed to be interpreted literally.
Personally i hated how Susan was treated. I don`t know if its true but i read somewhere that CS Lewis was going to write a story about Susan and her life after the train crash that killed her entire family but he died before he could write it.
I read the same thing somewhere. She was was my favorite character before, so I was kinda sad to read what happened to her. I always thought that if there had been a last book about Susan it would have had a really interesting arc about pain, loss, the will keep on living and maybe a path to see her family in the end. It would have been amazing.
You should read 'Till We Have Faces.' I think Lewis somewhat answers in this novel how Susan may have come back to Narnia.
By the looks of it, there may have been drafts or outlines for at least two or three other Narnia stories that were never published. However, Lewis stopped writing Narnia stories a few years before he died and all we have are a few hints now of what might have been.
Now that would have been awesome I would definitely would have read that book and find out for myself if she really gets to go back to Narnia
You explain this so well. I was worried that you were just going to slam Lewis for Susan's end in the books, but you brought so much more to the discussion than just calling Lewis a sexist old dead white man.
88michaelandersen Which he was. 🤷♂️
@@kouyasakurada5547 He might be old, dead, white, and a man, but he wasn't sexist.
Now to contextualise his depiction of Muslims ... ...
@@88michaelandersen "Susan, Lucy, these weapons are only for self defense. Women aren't meant to fight."
Yes, Lewis was sexist, as were most people in the 1940s.
@@BadWolf739 Wrong on both of your points.
Agree with you on this. For me The Last Battle is the book with the hardest concept to non-Christians. Loved the video and thanks from a brazilian Narnia fan.
I read The Last Battle when I was 10. It was...depressing
The last battle is the only work of fiction to ever make me cry. Not “oh I’m a little choked up and my eyes are kinda damp” but full on, ugly, snotty, SOBBING. I read it when I was 15/16 less than a year after my grandfather died and the end where they’re finally in the afterlife just hit me so hard. I can’t imagine what it would have been like if I was 10.
i agree
I remember reading it as a kid and thinking it was lame. Everyone dies? Made no sense to me. Then my dad explained it was a meant to be a parallel to the book of Revelations and I was like, "Oh, so the BIBLE is lame"... this might have been the start of me being an atheist (I realize the irony in that CS lewis was trying to get kids more interested in Christianity by writing the books and it literally had the opposite effect on me)
Interesting. I also read it around that age and actually thought Lewis handled the topic well, given the number of theological land mines he had to avoid.
I grew up Catholic, I am wondering if, for people who don't have a Roman Catholic/High Church Angican (or perhaps Orthodox) cosmology the story worked very differently.
@@resourcedragon Yeah, I imagine one's feelings about religion, Christianity especially impact how they feel about CS Lewis's writings, especially in the later books
I was 11 when I reached the part about Susan growing up and not coming back to Narnia... it was my first great literary disappointment. I was so angry and I still am.
It seemed so unfair in a way I can't really verbalise.
Fitting, since it's an allegory for by far the least fair belief in Christian theology that hasn't been recanted by generations of increasingly-sane Christian moralists: That people who don't believe in the right invisible being get eternal torment instead of eternal bliss.
@@timothymclean Missing the point there mate. Susan didn't live a life of belief, it wasn't lack of belief in Narnia/Aslan that kept her out (Remember the Calorman they meet, who's been worshipping basically the Devil his entire life, but lived well?), it's that she chose to prioritise parties, make-up, in short vain things. She also was very dismissive of her family, and was detached from them emotionally. After all, the Penvensies mother and father are in the Land Beyond, and they never went to Narnia.
@theshadowling1 Well, from a Christian perspective, you would say that it was the atheist’s fault, that they denied something that is obviously true, and are very in the wrong (it is common to claim that atheists are vapid and materialist) I think the OP and poster who you replied to tried to think about it from outside of Lewis’ clearly biased perspective.
@@user-uu2cj9ct3j Maybe don't complain about christian Allegory in a book series where the first book written has literally a Jesus allegory in it? Also, you missed my point. Susan becomes obsessed with the wrong things. As shown by the Pevensies parents turning up (Or Aslan saying they are on their way). Living a moral life, not focusing on things that are frankly shallow and material isn't even a christian position, it's echoed in nearly every single philosophical system except maybe Nihilism.
@the shadowling1
Um, I wasn’t complaining about Christian allegory. I was simply saying that the book is making a statement about someone who turns from the faith, in the form of Susan. It is common, in Christianity, to claim that apostates are “chasing after worldly things”, it is a frequent treatment/trope for de-converts. That Lewis adopts this trope is unsurprising, in his story. I think that you missed my point, which is that the reader, with the knowledge of the story being allegorical, can choose to read beyond the deliberate message, and interpret the work/character differently than intended. The only evidence that Susan is chasing after shallow, material things is that the “believers” from her family/friends say so. This is also quite similar to experiences I have had in real life, and though the family/friends may mean well, it doesn’t mean they are wholly right. This is what I meant, in my original comment. The OP and other poster can have the liberty to look deeper specifically because it is Christian allegory. No one is complaining here.
I do remember reading somewhere, C S Lewis once said, he wasn't done with Susan, he just died before he could write about her.
did he say that after he died
@@ryaneckersley2037 Yes.
The fear of being perceived as "childish" is indeed one of the most surefire indicators of a lack of legitimate maturity. While it is true that enjoying so-called "childish" things with the same sort if glee and/or reverance as a child could certainly be considered actually childish, the classifying of things they enjoyed as a child being "beneath them" does nothing but mark them as one who utterly fails to understand the ACTUAL definitions of both "childish" and "maturity". The only things from one's child that are truly exclusively for children are those pieces of metaphorical trash that were created by those that are similarly self-deluded about this, and even then, children shouldn't really be watching such mindless slop themselves. One that, for example, is under the delusion that animation is "just for children" is generally borderline incapable of creating something that is even worthy enough to be watched by children, the occasional flukes not withstanding.
i'm very late I know but fantastic video! I'm so happy you focused on Susan liking grown up things as a metaphor for materialistic love/obsession. Not the whole 'she didn't get to go because she's a girl who likes lipstick' like I've seen a few times.
Something so sad I find is that C.S Lewis had a plan to write a spinoff book about Susan after the ending of the 7th book but died before he could start. He had a plan for Susan's story but couldn't finish it. And at least he left her fate open-ended so it's up to the readers to decide if Susan does get to Narnia or not.
Thanks to this very eloquent video I do now understand that C.S Lewis didn’t have any ill intentions about Susan. I do see how, to a Christian the ending would probably not be troubling. As someone who doesn’t believe in religion I still can’t shake my discomfort at several aspects of the novels and despite loving the large majority of them I would never want to read them to my own children, because of these aspects with which I can personally not morally agree. All respect to C.S Lewis for creating a beautiful story and for Christians in general, though
Definitely read The Golden Compass. Philip Pullman wrote it after how disgruntled he was as a child finishing The Last Battle. Lyra as a character is probably the most amazing and well written female characters in fiction.
I grew up Christian and reading The Chronicles of Narnia books every few years. While I loved the last last part of The Last Battle - when everyone is reunited and full of life - I was always troubled by Susan's exclusion from that. Even reading the books as a Christian, I was never be happy with Susan just "not getting into heaven/Aslan's country" because of her choices/attitudes/beliefs at a particular moment in her life. She was/is a queen of Narnia, for Pete's sake! Now that I know that Lewis would have given Susan a redemption arc if he could have, I feel a little less ripped off by her ending in the Narnia narrative. As she is written in The Last Battle, though, she is cheated out of a happy ending. I always blamed her for that. Now I'm just a little peeved at C.S. Lewis for not writing the rest of her story haha
@@marym361 Of all Jesus's 12 apostles Judas Iscariot betrayed Him and eventually killed him self by hanging. Or the story of King Saul from the book of Samuel who started good but died having lost his way.
I think Susan's story is supposed to be in parallel with these Biblical figures who started out being strong in their faith but have along the way lost it due to their succumbing to evil and sinfulness.
People reading these in the Bible don't seem to have this reaction and yet react greatly in a fiction story. I find that point has been missed here.
@@eraliaa3219 Good point. Like some other commenters have said, I just always found it hard to believe/accept that Susan would have half a lifetime in Narnia then come to see all that as make believe. I absolutely get that Lewis was probably trying to emulate a Biblical "loss of faith" narrative... but he does so without any narrative, really.
Even the Biblical narratives you mentioned tend to have some progression that readers can witness - Judas is stealing money, Judas makes an arrangement with the Pharisees, Judas betrays Jesus with a kiss. We don't get to see any progression with Susan. We see her have a whole life in Narnia, then don't see her for a couple of books, and then she doesn't believe that Narnia is real. Without being able to read her story in those in-between years, Susan's disbelief seems sudden and unfounded. Her ending is disappointing, but it's made especially disappointing by the way it's told.
But there I go again wishing that Lewis had written just a little bit more...
It was good of Clive to have one of the big 4 characters fall by the wayside, because religion and de facto sainthood be like that sometimes. You make an interesting observation on how Susan's story mirrors Lewis' own lifetime.
Now I just want an R-rated drama about a middle aged Susan mentoring her delusional hallucination-plagued intern, while she grapples with the death of her whole family.
Yes! Thank you! So many critics of CoN hone in on Susan and use her as their excuse for hating the series without ever once stopping to consider what Jack was doing with her character. Yes, he left her fate up to audience interpretation (which, imo, was brilliant), but he never once intended for the question mark that is her character to indicate some kind of sexist disdain for feminine things. "Once a king or queen of Narnia, always a king or queen." I don't know if Jack was a Calvinist or not, but as far as the Pevensies go, they are to Narnia what Israel is to our world; they WILL all be redeemed, and they WILL all enter Aslan's country eventually. Even Susan. And she'll be the wisest of them when she finally gets there.
He was sort of low church Anglican which is Episcopalian if you live outside the UK. His friend J.R.R. Tolkien apparently kept trying to convert him to Catholicism but Lewis never went that far.
If CS Lewis survived the two world wars it makes perfect sense why Susan survived the world wars in the story
@@AbelMcTalisker If I recall, Tolkien is the one who helped Lewis come back to Christianity but was disappointed that Lewis didn't become Catholic
I always related their complaints of lipstick, nylons, and invitations to my peers who were obsessed with dating, makeup, and growing up to be famous. There was no substance in their conversation and they mocked any other subjects. I've had the disappointment of good friends getting taken up with these subjects, so losing Susan was completely relatable to me.
I think the main problem is that you need an extensive amount of information on the author’s backstory to understand the context of Sudan’s fate in the Last Battle. Taken just on its own in the text it seems a little bit cruel to the character.
Yeah, this video makes me a little more forgiving of Lewis as it seems he had decent intentions for Susan's story. But he majorly failed in the execution.
Nope, all you need to sort out this 'problem' is to read carefully and apply a bit of logic. Something many these days seem incapable of doing. Lewis was under no obligation to spell everything out. If people misinterpret due to stupidity or their minds being twisted by perverse ideologies then that's their problem.
Thank you for this. I've always avoided the later books because Susan was the one character I connected with, but realizing how Susan's arc mirrors Lewis' changes the tone of that arc completely. While I wish he had written a story for her, I am glad he was comfortible enough with the idea of his fans writting to enchorage them to do so, all the way back in the 60s.
Love, love, love the open mention of how wanting to be grown up and obsessing about acting grown up is a childish thing. I have worked with so many 30, 40, and 50-year-old children both in maritime industry and construction, and watched 20-something youth camp leaders confuse themselves when trying to explain to 13-year-old boys why swearing is bad... We don't understand this concept as a society, and I am deeply affirmed by your clear and concise treatment of it, with a gem of a C.S. Lewis quote that I've never read before! Thank you!
For another, edgier treatment of how trying to be "grown up" is the behavior of a child, try the Japanese OVA anime "FLCL." It's not the overt plot, but one can see the teenage characters' obsession with what they think is adult behavior, and how it holds them back.
You explained all of that very, very well. I was one of those readers who was concerned as to Susan's life after the loss of her family and friends. I couldn't accept that she would be left behind forever (although God does give us free will and that may have been CS Lewis' point in ending her part in the story as he did.) As you mentioned, Mr. Lewis did suggest to Pauline that she write her own version of what happened to Susan. I have never found evidence that she did - but I took up the challenge. I have written what I believe is a satisfying, yet fantastical story of Susan's post "Last Battle" life. It took me down some interesting thought paths - some that were even surprising to me. I hope to one day be able to publish it. The sad part to that is the Narnia series in the US and UK won't even begin to come into public domain until about 2035 or so. I may have to leave it to my children or grandchildren to publish.
You could always post it on fanfiction or archive of our own.
I am coming to the conclusion that this is about our choices: It is up to us to choose what happens to Susan after she dies, just as it is up to us to choose the right way or the wrong way for ourselves. When we have been wrong, it is up to us to repent of these things for a happier life and afterlife. It's also up to us to finish the story of Susan of whether she comes to repentance and faith and goes to heaven/Narnia or whether she dies in her vanity and disbelief and faces judgement. CS Lewis never said she was destined for hell or the underworld... She simply wasn't on the train and wasn't killed, and as there wasn't a rapture on earth she still had time to mend her ways and possibly enter heaven from the earthly realm.
One of the most amazing things about CS Lewis was his gift for explaining extremely complex concepts in very simple terms, without ever talking down to his audience. The Narnia books are a testament to that. And the people say "There are things in these books that you will not understand until you are much older" are very very right. I was in college when I realized the subtle philosophical complexity of the argument about the existence of the Sun in The Silver Chair. Something as complex and hard to grasp as empirical thought is explained in a single sentence from a whimsical scarecrow named Puddleglum.
Lewis truly had a gift for teaching and for thought, but he was also incredibly skilled at talking to children. He never talked down to them, he always treated with the respect they derserve, and he saw them for the people that they are. Truly a great man and one of the best people in the last 100 years.
Good old Puddleglum!
Lewis based his Pevensie children to some extent on the refugee children that he let stay in his house during WW2.
Back in the 80s I met someone who had dated the real life Susan's daughter and he told me that there was still some bad feeling in the family regarding Lewis' treatment of her alter-ego. I've always wondered if his short story 'The Shoddy Lands' related to this somehow. He seemed to be quite judgemental of the frivolousness of young post-war women.
that's really interesting!
What was her name ?
Yes, that judgmental attitude about young women also shows up in "That Hideous Strength".
I like your take on this. A lot of people say Susan's ending in the books is the result of Lewis's sexism--that he punished her for being traditionally feminine. As a Christian, feminist, and a big fan of the Narnia books, I've never seen it that way. You mentioned that possibly it's an allegory for a young Christian who becomes an atheist as they grow older. Maybe that's part of it, but I'd argue that it's a little more nuanced.
In my experience, Christianity has this concept of "the things of God" versus "the things of the world." The former includes, for example, learning more about God, growing in trust in Him, obeying his commands, loving and serving others, communing with other Christians, and so on. The things of the world, on the other hand, could range from physical things like objects or wealth to more intangible things like success or popularity. A lot of the things of the world are not inherently bad. There's nothing wrong with having money or being successful or popular. The problem is when those things become the most important things in one's life, more important than the things of God. The problem is when we idolize the things of the world. It can cause us to fall away from God as we chase after immediate, society-approved gratification. But chasing the things of the world will never satisfy us permanently or completely. Those things are all temporary. Unlike the things of God, they can and do fade, become lost, or die.
The way I always saw it, Susan was left behind at the end of the series not because she liked traditionally feminine things, but because she cared more for the things of the world than the things of God/Aslan/Aslan's father. She wasn't left out because she liked lipstick and nylons and parties and boys (or whatever the quote is), it was because she idolized physical beauty, material objects, popularity, and romantic relationships over her family and her calling to Narnia/Aslan/Aslan's father. She eventually "fell away," forgetting (or willfully denying) Narnia. Susan being left behind is not punishment for traditional femininity, but an allegory for the Christian who becomes enraptured with the things of the world and loses sight of God, either not keeping Him and their faith as their #1 priority or abandoning their faith entirely. Of course, Lewis concedes a possibility that Susan could find her way to Aslan's Country later on, when she's older--and any Christian who falls away is welcomed back with loving, open arms.
Of course I can't speak for all Christians, and I'm not sure how widespread this concept is in different denominations. I also don't know for sure if Lewis was sexist or not IRL--though considering the time he lived I wouldn't be surprised--so my interpretation may not have been his intention at all. But I just thought I'd share, given my background.
I think you are correct, from the theological pov.
This was how I always viewed it as well. That she'd fallen to the way side. So sad that people view things from years ago with their narrow vision of the world.
I've always viewed it as Susan is just lost from both faith and losing that child's sense of wonder. Eventually she'll return but not until she's ready as life isn't a happy fairy tale we need the bad to know the good in life
How I see it is: Susan didn't choose party favors over Narnia. She was required to be a socialite in Narnia and became a socialite in England. She chose living in the here-and-now over nostalgia. She didn't idolize beauty and popularity, she never was the sort. She chose reality over daydreams.
She was always the practical one, after all.
As Aslan would say, “Child,' said the Lion, 'I am telling you your story, not hers. No one is told any story but their own.”
To quote my favourite character of all time, "Of course I'm childish, There's no fun in being an adult if you can't be childish from time to time,"
Who said that?
@@myeyemyway Who indeed, Doctor Who.
TOM BAKER!!!!!💙 One of my favourite quotes.
I like a line from Lewis' "The Silver Chair":
"Even in this world, of course, it is the stupidest children who are the most childish and the stupidest grown-ups who are the most grown-up."
C.S. Lewis himself believed that the creative person had an obligation to use his own art to bring honor to the Creator. So when reading books like the Chronicles of Narnia and evaluating the female characters, we have to remember he’s focusing on their spiritual, mental, and emotional status and growth for purposes of allegory and morality. Love the man.
It kind of feels like Susan's story was not finished. I find it hard to believe someone who had literally experienced Narnia would say it's not real. Probably compartmentalizing it but later comes to accept it. It's just we never got to actually see her come around, and I believe she most likely did after all her experiences there.
There probably were a number of unfinished plots and stories, some of which are referenced in "The Last Battle" that were never published as Lewis seems to have stopped working on Narnia stories after the death of his wife.
I see it kinda like this, it's like when someone spent much of their life raised going to church, and Sunday school etc. and then decide for whatever reason they don't believe in any that any more.
Honestly they are other reasons why that ending was messed up And there are other arguments
You forgot to mention about Susan’s treatment like the way they acted when they talked about her and then they just like we’re like oh let’s not talk about it oh look a apple tree 🤦♀️ Or the fact he plays it like a joyous thing when reality everyone is freaking Dead and they don’t stop and think what Susan is feeling at the moment Or the fact that other writers also have a problem with that ending or Neil Gailmen “s take on it which is a pretty dark critique and short story .
Well, CS Lewis was a Christian. And I mean, I know you're thinking, duh, obviously, but one of the themes you see in stuff like The Great Divorce is that heaven is a place where sadness can't cancel out happiness, happiness...wins, so to speak. And that as you go further up and further in it only gets better. So there's that. 'Have you noticed you can't feel afraid, even if you try?' There's some quote about being held hostage to the tyrants determined to be unhappy in The Great Divorce, but I can't put my hand to it now.
Heaven, for Lewis, and for Narnia canon, is a bit Julian of Norwich: "all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well". Including Susan. Even if not right now.
+[Jill Bearup]
A month late, but I still felt compelled to write this.
If you can't feel sad, you can't feel empathy. A place without empathy sounds a lot closer to Hell to me than it does to Heaven. In fact, a place where I can't ever feel sad, or afraid, or angry ~ to me, that would be the stuff of nightmares.
Which.... basically sums up my biggest problem with _The Last Battle_ . I've always *HATED* it when writers present tragedy and horror as if it's a wonderful thing. _Pan's Labyrinth_ is a movie I hate with a passion for quite a similar reason. Same goes for Hans Christian Andersen's original version of _The Little Mermaid_ . No, Hans, Ariel dying is *not* a good thing, so stop pretending like it is with that "becoming one with the waves" nonsense!
I always found that part quite disturbing
@@AhsimNreiziev I think I interpret those stories differently. I find empathy, when not mixed with other emotions, is a positive feeling. So Little Mermaid, for example, is a dark tale, but it's happy in one way because she's let go of any desires for herself and feels only for others, which puts an end to her suffering & conflict.
Aslan's Country in LB doesn't make anyone forget their past, which I always liked. But it fills them with a sense of invulnerability and total confidence that things will be well. It's not as if they aren't still sad when they mention Susan. I'm not a practicing Christian, so not an expert, but I have seen Lewis' Christianity described as trust in an eventual happy ending, no matter how dark things become. I think that's what LB is trying to convey.
Even Christ Himself doesn't have infinite patience. Those who deny Him and close the path of selfishness are allowed to go their own way, and it would be wrong to let the redeemed be tortured by that. As Lewis put it in the Great Divorce, hell must not be allowed to veto heaven.
Oh, thank God, a reasoned critique. Students often complain about whether something in the story is fair - for example, aspects of Pilgrim's Progress. My advice was to dig the author up and give them direct feedback or at least ask for some clarity. It is what it is. Our task as the reader is to try to understand, and as you say, assess the method rather than the message. Many thanks. I think my students would enjoy this channel and I will point them in your direction.
I mean... she became an adult already. She went throught adulthood in a place where she really mattered and was listened to. Being thrown back to being a child, in a place where no one listens to women at all... Well, no wonder she would want to go back to her "adultself" as soon as possible.
Neil Gaiman wrote a story about this, "The Problem of Susan", which is the only reason I've heard about this as I never got past Prince Caspian in the Narnia books.
I'm not altogether surprised.
That book is pretty bad.
Worth noting that the character assassination of Susan had already begun even then.
@@alanpennie8013 Prince Caspian is an excellent book. Far better written than the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe although I loved that too.
@@alanpennie8013 And as for character assassination Lewis created the Susan Pevensie character. He had the right to develop her however he saw fit.
@@davidmorris2219
Absolute nonsense.
Thank you so much for explaining this as the complex and interesting idea it is, with the proper context, and not just slamming Lewis. I'm not sure I've ever seen this fairly done before.
I haven't bumped into the other side of this argument yet, and I really appreciated how well put together this is. Thank you very much.
I'm 5.5/7th the way through reading Chronicles to my son right now and I have to thank you for the critique, but even more thank you for the proper pronunciation of Pevensie. Reading those names and places out loud generate more anxiety than it should, thank you for helping with that.
"once a king or queen of narnia always a king or queen of narnia" this is true because Aslan said it. Susan may have wandered from Aslan but Aslan never wandered from Susan. If Lewis had written the story this would be the theme.
I always interpreted it as much happier than that. Everyone who knew about Narnia died in The Last Battle, except Susan. I agree with this video, that Susan became pre-occupied with her earth-life, so to speak, and so Narnia became secondary and not worth dwelling on, especially since she had been told that she could never return in Prince Caspian. All memory of Narnia died in The Last Battle, except for Susan. I felt like someone had to survive The Last Battle in order for the memory of Narnia to live on, and that was in Susan. It's not tragic at all. Everyone else's stories had ended, but Susan still had a life to live and joys to be had before she could return to Narnia with her family.
Thank you for this. I had to brace myself before clicking for fear you were arguing the other side. Until I actually saw who was talking that is.
Really tidy video!
I really love your insightful take on this story. The Chronicles of Narnia have been dear to my heart in so many ways, and you are so right - Susan is the one that, if we all think of it, most people relate more readily than the other Pevensie children. Yes, there are the wide-eyed, child-hearted dreamers who never lose their faith, or the upright, stout-hearted sort who is willing to fight for the cause. There are a few who are willing to sacrifice integrity for pleasure - more than a few, really, so perhaps Edmund is easily relatable as well, but I see him more as the sudden dark path that is reached through intervention. The rest of us are - if not pessimists - pragmatic at heart. We'd like to believe in a fantasy, but set in the cluttered noise of every day life, it is hard to keep our eyes on the image without constant encouragement and reminders. Toss in emotional upheaval, life changes, disillusionment and everything else, then Susan is every church-going kid who falls away from the youth group in their teen years because they cannot find a connection to their past that rings true with their present. But Lewis himself is proof that these wanderers do find their way home later on the path, when they've cleared through the jungle and are able to look back and reflect on the course their life has taken. That's why it's always important for those of us who somehow manage to keep hold onto the dream to remain encouraging, to not judge another's seeming lack of belief or overwhelming disbelief. Many times it is the quiet, steady presences in our lives that serve as the touch-stones to help us find the right path yet again.
For my fellow Americans who might not know: a "fancy dress" party is what we call a costume party.
This was your first video I watched (last year, when CZcams recommended it to me) and I’ve since subscribed and watched many.
I’d only read The Lion, The Witch, and The wardrobe and Voyage of the Dawn Treader before now.
I finally read all seven in chronological order (was on annual leave last week) so rewatched this video and it all makes sense now. Also, I feel better that Susan isn’t completely kicked to the curb and is viewed as a future saint (as we are all past sinners).
That last quote reminded me of one of my favorite lines from Doctor Who.
"What's the point of being grown up if you can't childish now and then?"
Jill, I think you made a phenomenal response to this divisive issue!
This is really great! I have had "debates" with people about Susan where they think her role in the Last Battle is just an attack on women instead of a critique of materialism, using Susan as a vehicle for that. Thank you so much for articulating this so thoroughly.
Yeah, I think a lot of people had it backwards. It's not that Lewis decided she liked these things, and therefore decided to make her no longer a friend of Narnia; rather, Lewis decided that she was no longer a friend of Narnia, and then tried to think of what sorts of things a girl her age would be interested in that would distract her from what really matters. If Susan had been a third brother instead of a sister, the story would have been much the same, just with something like fast cars and hair grease instead of lipstick and nylons.
I love how objective you are. Your so fun to listen too. You’ve earned a subscriber.
Thanks for this video. I have heard much of what you said in bits and pieces, but you put it all together so nicely.
Godspeed.
Thank you so much for educating me about this!! I feel so much better knowing CS Lewis' authorial intent.
In the movies and mildy within the books Susan appears in, I always notice a problematic pattern regarding her. She is intelligent and has no issues voicing herself in knowledgeable or advising manners. She worries when the other Pevensies are losing sight of the reality they're in, for they are too busy being joyous and playful.
(This point reappears in their adult lives as well, when all the Pevensies still long for Narnia as if they left half their soul there and Susan has dedicated herself to her life in this world. As one would logically do, when being told they would never return to Narnia and would know Aslan in their own world. Sure, she is outgoing and having the occasional party as an adult, as Lewis condescendingly pens down. But is that straying, or being realistic. Why not make the best of your Earthly life, instead of waiting for Narnia with half your head in the clouds?)
Yet whenever she does so, she's portrayed as a know-it-all who's there to either show off or damper the mood. But when Peter does practically the same thing, it never goes without a similar 'correction'.
Over the years, as I grew older and kept loving Narnia/C.S Lewis as my favorite author, it began really bothering me. Bordering on sexism, because Susan is the sole feminine female character of the humans. Lucy and Jill are pure kids and in a way, not womanly in the sense that Susan is. So they are not punished or corrected for merely being so. I guess it's the spirit of the time in which these books were released. Doesn't resonate with me at all, while most of Lewis' writing usually does.
I hope this is not confusing. I was merely looking for a way to let out this one problem I have, with what is essentially, my favorite fantasy world and series.
C.S Lewis did write down in a letter to a fan of his, that Susan would eventually find her way back from being the sole scorned main character, in the entire series. Which he did not want to dedicate a book to, but at least this fact is canon. Bandage on the wound, I guess.
@Reg Eric Exactly. Jill and Lucy are "kids" to him like that sounds more like that's also a problem which in his view only someone like Susan is seen as feminine, ignoring how Jill and Lucy were even portrayed in their majestic presence in Narnia. Absolutely misses the point.
I'm glad to hear he felt some unease about the way he had treated the character.
As you say this is abuse of a character compelled by circumstance to take on a maternal.role.
It's true that she was told she'd not be coming back, but there's a big difference between getting to know Aslan by another name in her world and simply trying to forget Narnia and pretend it never existed.
To me, it seems the main point here is that Susan's treatment has nothing to do with her being a female. Her cares are cares a girl her age would obsess over, but that's simply because she's a female character (if she'd been male instead, similarly frivolous cares could still have been provided). As a minor example, in "The Magician's Nephew", Lewis does poke quite a bit of fun at Uncle Andrew's attempts to dress up and woo Jadis. It's not an exact parallel of Susan's situation, but it does show that he seemed to view many adult customs and trends as meaningless silliness and not what should be most important.
Thank you for putting it so beautifully and articulately, and using C.S. Lewis’ own words. Next time someone goes off about the “lipstick and nylons” I will direct them to this video because you did a better job of explaining it than I ever could!
I've been listening to letters and essays by Lewis on audiobook and with your pointing out that Susan isn't dead at the end of The Last Battle she no longer feels a "problem". It makes full sense for Lewis to see her story as unfinished and to be unwilling to end it before she's ready and able to return to Narnia. It wouldn't be fair to Susan to do so, even when compared to the grief she's going to suffer in the present. As a Christian believes eternity with God to be worth any suffering endured on Earth, Lewis, I imagine, saw Susan's longer, probably more traumatic, life as worth her eventual entry into Narnia. Far better for her to suffer now with the loss of those she loves than to die with them and yet not find eternal happiness and peace as they do.
On one video I saw a commentor who told the person in the video to "grow up" for using filter words, and interjections, like "um" and "basically" in an unscripted interview. I pointed out that preoccupation with being seen as a grown-up was the domain of children, and his response was to ask the question: "Being seen, or actually being?" When I noted his primary concern was behavioral and not material, and therefore ornamental and not literal, he threw a little tantrum.
Sounds like Lewis and I had similar ideas. Is it just me or there something very sweet about him telling the girl to write her own version?
I am extremely late to this conversation but I have always interpreted Susan as representative of the Prodigal Son. If Peter is literally Peter-- i.e. the Apostle at the right hand of Christ--and Edmund is very obviously Judas and Lucy is the myriad collection of true believers who hold onto their faith regardless of evidence to the contrary, I have to believe Susan would eventually return to Narnia and then to the Country of Aslan (i.e. her faith and to the hand of christ). Its too sad to believe otherwise
Ever notice Susan looks like Lindsay Ellis.
Hey - a tube of Maneater does not a great essayist make!
Not really
Ya not really.
Doug Walker made that joke in Suburban Knights, probably the only funny joke in that entire mess of a movie.
i always believed, that given the author's life, Lewis was giving her HIS OWN STORY, Lewis was also a man who as a a kid believed, as an adult he abandoned the faith and later came back
Thanks! That was great! I had thought about it, but I hadn’t worked Lewis ‘ own life into it. I decided that someone had to be left to tell the stories (not the most comprehensive opinion, but I was eight and it felt right.)
Like Sam telling the stories of the great deeds of the hobbits at the end of LOTR.
The key line in The Last Battle goes something like "She has waited to be that age her whole life, and now she will be that age forever". Always bothers me that people overlook it when they go lambasting Lewis' portrayal of Susan. Like, you people who are all about "the text"- read the text!!
From "The Silver Chair": "Even in this world, of course, it is the stupidest children who are the most childish and the stupidest grown-ups who are the most grown-up."
Also, from "The Magician's Nephew": "Children have one kind of silliness, as you know, and grown-ups have another kind. At this moment Uncle Andrew was beginning to be silly in a very grown-up way." In context, Uncle Andrew is letting his vanity get the better of him and forgetting the trouble that's coming. Instead, he's trying to make himself look his best so he can try to woo Jadis and thinks she'll fall in love with him. I think this is similar to the Susan situation in that clothing and romance and whatnot aren't wrong in themselves, but they're not the most important things and shouldn't be the main focus of one's life. (We're even told that Uncle Andrew being incredibly vain was what caused him to become a Magician in the first place, setting the stage for the whole mess.)
Love how you handle this, and really well researched.
I remember watching the movie version of Prince Caspian and liking two things in particular: the difficulty the children had adapting to “normal” life after living years in Narnia, and giving Susan some additional characterization with her interactions with Caspian. Forced as the chemistry was at times, it does give that added layer of trauma, of another reason for her to turn away as the only way to cope. Who knows what Peter went through, as we only have the briefest summary from himself in Last Battle.
In no way do I mean to discredit your expertise in stage combat when I say this is my favourite insight from you, followed by "Zuko had Iroh, Azula had no one"
Heart for the sentiment and also because your internet name is Jaina Solo :D
@@JillBearup Yay! Jaina is my fave character in fiction so at some point I ended up using that as my internet persona haha.
I even led the campaign for her Black Series action figure which now exists and I'm really proud of :)
I don't know. Maybe Susan got a bum rap. Yes, Susan was the most worldly of the group, but maybe Narnia wasn't a place for adults. Doesn't mean Susan hated Narnia.
I have got really interested in the question of how the Pevensies coped when they came back from Narnia. Like, suddenly they're adults in child bodies, but how quickly does that body reassert itself? How much do you keep of twenty years of memories and how much do you fall back into the patterns that your eight, ten, twelve year old body expects of you? (Pratchett would say form defines function, but it's a question that intrigues me)
Or think about trying to go through life with an experience that you really can't share with anyone outside your group. "Well doctor, when I was a little girl I went through a wardrobe and became a queen of Narnia and hung out with this talking lion and some talking animals for 20 years, and I came back and became a child again and ...". Susan was just trying to keep her sanity.
I kind of think that the word "doctor" in your comment should have been capitalized. "When I was a little girl, I won't through a wardrobe... How can it be true?"
"Weeeeell. A bit of wibbbly wobbly timey wimey stuff." Let the fandoms unite!!!
That's always been my biggest problem with how Susan was handled as a character--the implication wasn't that Susan had consciously rejected Narnia but that it had truly faded in her mind to the point where she didn't even think it was real... and they were rulers in Narnia for like?? A decade?? LITERALLY HOW
Indeed Narnia wasn't for adults. At the end of Prince Caspian Peter and Susan are told by Aslan that this will be their last time and at the end of The Dawn Treader he tells Edmund and Lucy the same. He tells them they've grown too old for Narnia and must begin to truly live in their world. So having been told point blank they're now essentially banned from Narnia I could see how someone might eventually dismiss their adventures as flights of childhood fantasy out of anger or grief.
But a key detail that's often missed in this discussion, Aslan tells Edmund and Lucy the whole reason they were brought to Narnia is so they could meet him and then they could know him on Earth where he also resides. But they have to know him by his true name there, which he doesn't reveal but is pretty obviously Jesus. Thus, the Pevensies are now faced with arguably the biggest challenge of being Christians: having faith that it's true, which is hard for many reasons especially when everyday life always threatens to divert your attention.
And as Jill mentioned in the video, Susan is possibly the closest to being C.S. Lewis' self-insert character. He believed in God as child, became an atheist around the onset of adulthood and stayed that way for his 20's, and then eventually came back to Christianity later. And who knows? Maybe Susan did too. The sudden horrific death of her entire family no doubt led to some serious grief and soul-searching. Perhaps that led her back to her memories of Narnia and restored her faith.
As they say in the books "Once a King or Queen of Narnia, always a King or Queen of Narnia."
Thank you! This criticism of Susan's treatment in the story has always bothered me. I read Neil Gaiman's story and was disappointed that he, of all people, couldn't appreciate a cautionary tale about exchanging the wonder of childhood for the superficial aspects of adulthood.
Thank you! I have addressed "the Problem of Susan" on Quora (a Q&A site) and was gratified to see you use the same arguments on Lewis's behalf.
Finally. It's ridiculous that people make a big deal out of this.
The Problem of Susan is a weird story, but a good one. Her story truly is horrifying from her perspective.
It's horrifying from any perspective.
Except her family's, apparently
Neil Gaiman's short story still makes some pretty good points, however. Susan talks about having to see the decapitated body of her little brother and how her parents' faces were pulped beyond recognition. It drives home how horrifying an experience it would have been on her end.
It's worth noting that Lewis had little exposure to women before he met his wife, Joy Davidman, at the age of 53, well after completing the Narnia books. He probably had a brief affair when he was in his 20s, and that appears to be it. His was a very chummy, very friendly, but very male world.
So IMO Lewis' intention was right, but the way he went about it was problematic. For instance, wartime rationing or not, you can be sure plenty of _adult_ women were bending over backwards to get their hand on nylon stockings, and I wonder if Lewis would have even been aware of this.
If you check the dates most of the later Narnia books were written during the period of his marriage. None were written afterwards.
Character development was never Lewis's strong point. I think that, if we'd had more time with Susan and her arch was less of an afterthought, what Lewis was going for might have worked better. That being said, a book about Susan mourning the death of all her loved ones, slowly finding a way to manage her grief through fairy tales and childish things and finally being welcomed back into Narnia by Aslan, could have been an amazing book.
But I guess Susan was a mother-like for her brothers, cooking for them and sewing clothes, managing money and taking care of their parents, like any older sister do... so I kind of understand that she thought of Narnia like an inamture childsplay
Indeed.
She was a quasi - mother among the four children.
I read the series as a child. I absolutely loved it and was astonished when I read about Susan not going to heaven (which is how I interpreted it). I knew she was still alive, but still assumed it was her version of ‘death’ in a way (being dead in sin). I thought the point was to parallel how people can go to church but not truly be Christian. Or like Pliable and the busy lady from Pilgrims Progress, she was either too distracted by worldly values/not as strong in her faith and that’s why she was left behind.
But seeing this video, I like to hear that there was hope for her yet. I mean by default there was always hope I guess, since she hadn’t actually died. But I didn’t think that far as a child lol. Now I see that she just wasn’t where her siblings were spiritually and that is just to be left open ended. She could be like CS Lewis, finding Christ in her later years or be a non believer till the end. We just don’t know 🤷♀️
Thank you for this. I love the man and his books so it's nice to have a deeper understanding, one I can appreciate more 😊
Thank you for covering this. This has bugged me for years!!
I'm gonna rant:
I don't know how I got here (I was watching you fit a sword through the back of a dress, then I'm here), but this video led me to look up a bunch of Susan analyses. I admit I haven't read the books so I should probably shut my mouth (I am gonna have to read them though - especially now that I learned everyone but Susan dies), but I'm reading all these articles on Susan and not one mentions the fact that the kids go from wartime in England to wartime in Narnia. These kids have to flee their home and leave their mother so they don't get bombed the hell up and then in Narnia they have to flee from the White Witch and fight a war. I'm sure that wasn't easy for the kids (I mean Edmund was "gravely injured"), but especially for Susan, who from what I've been reading is very much into being comfortable (or in her comfort zone), and didn't want to be in Narnia in the first place (12 year old Susan knew what was up and knew that some pretty world in a wardrobe was not normal and not all that it looked to be). Even in the golden age of Narnia, her and Edmund had to flee for their lives so she wouldn't be forced into marriage with some vile leader of another land. But on top of that, when she goes back to Narnia a year later and fights another war, she's told she won't be able to come back because she's learned all that she could from Narnia - I'm sure that had to hurt, even if earlier in the book she didn't want to believe in Aslan (which some people have said that's her way of slowly trying to separate herself from childish things, but maybe she knew seeing Aslan would mean trouble because he seems like he asks a lot from these kids). Susan and her siblings have to deal with war in Narnia and they spend a good 10 to 15 years in Narnia, go through the wardrobe to their world where they deal with more war (which is a very grown up issue by the way), but as children, which means they really have no true autonomy because they are at the mercy of adults. These kids don't get to be kids ANYWHERE. Even if that incident with that vile leader was a one-time thing during the golden age, they're still leading a nation. Maybe all of those silly little things (lipstick and nylons), were a welcome relief from what was probably a traumatizing experience and not just about growing up. One of the excerpts I read said that Susan shot a man in the head with a arrow and she paled, but she just kept pushing on because Peter was in danger. She's experiencing violence and trauma everywhere, at least she can minimize it by choosing not to go to Narnia. What's worse is that after the death of her family, she's never going to be able to capture her youth - she's going to have to fend for herself (unless she lives with her aunt and uncle but I read they weren't the greatest). I even read that because her grades were low, she had to travel to America with her mom. I don't know what her grades were like before Narnia, but that's definitely a sign that something's brewing below the surface.
Also, can someone tell me what Peter and Susan were suppose to learn after Prince Caspian and what Susan's grades were like before Narnia.
IIRC we don't get any info on Susan's grades before Narnia. As for Caspian, the whole book is about Peter's crisis of faith and his desire to do everything himself. It was learning to ask for help.
I think you raise a very interesting point. These books aren't just an allegory about Christ's sacrifice, they are also a significantly interesting look at mental health, how we deal with trauma, the importance of listening to and nurturing children, and the importance of valuing the things that truly matter in life. This is a great write-up.
@@golfer435 Thank you for replying. Peter and Susan's lesson wasn't made clear to me in the movies. I'm definitely going to have to read the books.
This made me feel better about the Susan issue I have with Lewis. I have had it since I read The Last Battle years ago. I wonder who will write the Susan Books?
insightful, well explained commentary that makes me want to delve back into the books - subbed!
Great analysis! I do feel that the inclusion of this "fate" for Susan does add some seriousness and realism to the ending, rather than a "perfect" ending, which, strangely, makes it a more "perfect ending". People make wrong choices, but there is always a chance for redemption, as long as we live.
Me who just finished playing Susan in a small production: 👁👄👁
I liked the part where she told us about the ending of the last book without any spoiler-warning, in the first 30 seconds... woopsie
I mean, it's been out for 65 years by now. At SOME point, it becomes reasonable to assume that people who are extremely concerned with spoilers have either read it or don't want to read it.
I feel like CS Lewis could of written something so powerful in Susan’s arc and acknowledging her obvious trauma she cannot get past as her siblings did, as well as her coming back to narnia and explore what it was like and what it meant to see such a horrible tragedy happen to her family in the real world to bring them to Aslans country. He just kinda dropped the ball on her, which is a little disappointing, but doesn’t mean there isn’t subtext and value still in Susan’s story (just take it with a grain of salt, since just like in real life, all the information we get about her in the final book is from people talking crap about her)
Thanks for this. Susan's fate in The Last Battle has always bothered me (I've read and reread all of the books since I was very young). This is an excellent explanation and resolves several decades of angst. 🙂
I bet if CS Lewis were alive today he would be a big fan of animated movies like the ones made by Pixar and Disney. :-)
His friend JRR Tolkien definitely wasn't
@@jaojao1768 Really? What did he think of them?
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi Tolkien only sold away the film rights to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit after he was promised that Disney would not be involved in it
@@jaojao1768 Ouch. Thanks for the info. I just meant the CS Lewis seemed to be a big fan or fairytales and it looked like he loved media for kids even when he was an adult. I sort of feel like animation is today's fairytales. They often have happy ending, kids love them, and many adults don't want to see them because they, thinking themselves grown up, want to avoid what the deem as childish. Lewis seemed like the type of guy who liked a happy ending regardless of of the story was meant for children or not. :-)
@@jaojao1768 i think that is because we all know how disney see his tales with more of a money value that an art value (Which is not a necesarily a bad thing, but i think Tolkien saw his book with a more art value and he didn't want his creation to be over exploited just for money.
The best breakdown of Susan as a character I have ever seen
Beautifully done! Thank you for the complete contextualization and direct quoing. I had quite honestly misinterpreted this when I read the book as a bit of bitter misogyny directed against women who became "too worldly" in their adulthood. Much more glad to see that I was wrong and that Lewis had a better concept behind Susan!
Authorial intent is important when dealing with any aspect of mystery in a work. Works start in the hands of a single creator, and only later develop into a collective effort to keep it alive. But, never can the expanded works leave it's roots, forgetting where it started, forgetting the intents, the ideals, the core aesthetic that defines it. Where possible, that author should be consulted, and what answers they give, in earnest, are to be folded into that root.
I understand what happened to Susan. Like everyone has their own choices and you can't help or hold on to others when they have decided to go their way. I mean its sad and there's a lot of things to be sad about but shouldn't you rejoice over the good things you have at that moment? You can't control everything or anything other than your life. Susan made her decision and she cannot control her family dying. if you haven't notice yet the world is a mean and nasty place. choices matter and they might last for eternity. Everything can't be like how you want it to be and people have a free will to decide what they want and you can't force them. they might chose to turn away from you and you can morn over that. I wouldn't say they didn't love her but like when those we love die and we are still alive, they had to live. Let it go you can't hold on to everything.