Pre Fader vs Post Fader Sends | What's The Difference?
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Let's dive into the differences between a Pre-Fader MixBUS and a Post Fader MixBUS. We are using the X32 console as an example, but the concepts translate to all consoles. You can use this information for AUX sends, MixBUS sends, Matrix sends and routing within your DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) to move signals back and forth from your console / DAW and back again. The possibilities are (almost) endless.
That was everything I was looking for in one video!!! Thank you so much!!!
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad you found the video helpful.
You explained it so well, I followed your tips for live stream and it's working for me. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, God bless you
That’s great. Thanks for the feedback.
Great explanation! Keep up the good work!! 🤙🏿
Thanks for the encoiagemenedf
As a young worship pastor in a small church, I have to do a lot of this stuff by myself and I'm not super well versed in all of it. Your videos are extremely helpful to me and so many others! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Tha Foe the encouragement. I’m glad you are finding value in them.
Thanks! Was very useful for me
I’m glad it was helpful. Let me know if you have any questions.
great video !!!
Thanks for the encouragement.
You're very knowledgeable and your videos are great. Would love if you did some of these through x32 edit on PC. A lot is the same but trying to do some of these things (having the Rack) through x edit gets very confusing. Your tutorials on pre and post and "sends on fader" are much different and I think you can reach a whole nother audience if you did. Cheers ✌️
You are correct and I plan to do some videos using X32 Edit. I did just put out a video recently using the software, but I’m happy to take suggestions on specifics of what to focus on next. This is the recent video: czcams.com/video/iK3gk2rzZgs/video.html
Good info
Love your videos! They have definitely help me improve my church mix.
If I make my bus stream mix post fader and I have crowd mic’s. But in the FOH mix I have the crowd mics down, can it be heard on stream or do I have to turn it to a pre fader mix?
You will want to select the crowd mic and then hit the “Stereo LR Bus” button to the left of the screen. Make sure it is NOT lit orange and this will remove those mics from the FOH mix. Then, turn the fader to unity and finally go to your stream MixBUS and adjust the fader send to the desired amount in your stream.
HI GREAT EXPLANATION ! I do have a question, does the EQ,COMP etc are follwed from what is set for each channels? and then sent to the mix busses for pre fader?
Yes. In the standard setup, the Pre-Fader and Post Fader options both send after the EQ and COMP. There are additional settings you can do if you want to choose just after the low cut, but it then becomes at an individual channel basis and takes a little time to set up properly.
So would a post fader bus be a good solution to use for a FOH sub? I would like to to mirror completely the entire mix of the L/R main
For a FOH sub, I usually use a Post Fader Matrix. You can send your LR mix to a Matrix and then that one output can be routed to any XLR output (or stage box) to suit your needs. Then, it will follow your Main fader for volume and you will have the Matrix fader for individual sub volume as well. You also have EQ and compression capability on the matrix so this can remove the need for fancy crossovers or a DSP.
@@AllamHouse Genius! This should do the trick!
15:07 Hi, about the pre and post fader when I am working on a piano stage monitor and my setup is set to pre-fader piano input 5 to MixBus 1. My question is: on M32, is there any push buttons presets that I can save my different custom preset fade levels to so I be switching between Pastor with Piano low on stage and Worship piano high on stage?
Meaning to have 2 different scenarios on specific MixBus faders being saved to different presets where I can just press on the preset buttons like maybe preset 1 or 2 to switch between them?
Example:
Scenario button 1: Piano stage MixBus is low
Senario button 2: Piano stage MixBus is high
Thank you.
You have a few options. 1) you could have two different monitor mixes on two different Buses they could both go to a Matrix and the Matrix would exit the console to actually feed your stage monitor. You could then mute the soft one when the band is playing and then swap to the other when the pastor is on stage. This provides you with one output from the console and two different mixes. Another option is to have snippets in place where you can have snippet 1 for the band and snippet 2 for the pastor and the only change is the monitor mix for your piano. You can switch easily between them (forward or back) during the service.
@@AllamHouse That was so helpful and generous from you.. I will try it next week at the church.
God bless you ♡
Hi God bless you I have a question, if my inputs are post fader and we are using the P16 monitors, is that ok, doesn't affect the monitor P16 if I move the channels inputs faders ?. Thank You and God bless you
To clarify, the inputs are not designated as pre/post fader, this would be designated for a mix going into a MixBUS, Matrix or for the tap point as a mix leaves the console in the Routing area. For the P16 setup, you have the ability to select the tap point for when (on the input chain) the signal is pulled to go to the P16. Since there re EQ settings on the P16 for each of the 16 channels, many people choose to go "Pre EQ". If you are doing a bit of corrective work with the X32 channel strip you can choose the "Pre Fader" so that the signal goes directly after the channel strip and over to the P16. If you have the P16 send set as Post Fader, your house mix fader changes will impact the P16 and your musicians' monitors will change constantly.
Good stuff! How do we confirm if our livestream mix is post or pre fader?
You click on the select button above the MixBUS, go to Hone > Config tab and you will see if it is set to pre or post fader. This video has a lot of sections in it, but check the description (roughly 5/00) for a quick-link to a spot dealing with this setup. czcams.com/video/pMnaiuC55RY/video.html
I had the same question while he was explaining it. Is the signal going to the bus pre or post fade or is the bus pre or post fade?
Great Content.
Thanks!
Thanks for the encouragement.
Hi Allam, thanks for the tutorials, could you show us in how to do a mix for a guitarist inear monitoring, we have encountered a problem with our x32, all the instruments can be heard but he is struggling to hear himself...we have checked all the volume levels, we can hear the guiter on the front speakers but no in his inear monitors.
Here is a video that talks about setting up monitors for IEM. Check it out and let me know if you have more questions. czcams.com/video/zwYcNieISF4/video.html
I have continuous challenge with our teams and their in-ears. We use a rack X32 with mono-configurations for Shure in-ear receivers. We must pan the receiver left or right depending on which channel their mix is on (8 receivers, 4 Stereo Transmitters). Sometimes, they do not look at the panning knob on the receiver pack and get confused on that. Same conversation with them as what you just typed.
Will compression, eq, and Fx be heard in a post fader stream mix without a DAW.
Yes, In the standard setup of either Pre-Fader OR Post Fader, the EQ, Compression and any inserted FX will be heard in your mix coming from each channel (1-32). You can also setup FX racks to be specific to your stream and then add them in to your stream the same way you add in instruments using "sends on fader". This video might help walk through the different settings. Check the description for some quick links to specific sections czcams.com/video/pMnaiuC55RY/video.html
GM
How do you make an INDIVIDUAL FADER post fade on X32?
The pre-fader/post fader setup is at the Bus level. Some other consoles will allow you to do it at the input level, but as of today I do not believe it is possible at the individual channel level on the X32.
I just received a X32 and I'm in the process of setting it up. I know you can record via the USB with a flash drive and I intend to do so, but I also want to record to an external CD recorder that we've been using with our analog board. Since it doesn't have a tape input or tape output per se, how would you hook it up and control the sound to the recorder? I assume you would use the aux RCA outputs, but since I haven't gotten into using it yet, I'm not sure how you would control the output volume. Thanks in advance!
I’ll make a video out of this since there are various options available, but at the most basic you would record your Main Mix. The USB recorded is set to record this by default and you can go to Routing > AUX and set AUX 5/6 to get signal from your main mix and this will give you a stereo output of either 1/4” or RCA outputs depending on what your existing cabling offers you. I recommend setting the tap point to “prefader” so that changing the main fader for your overall House volume does not impact your recording. Keep en eye out for a more detailed video, but this can get you started.
@@AllamHouse Thank you! I really appreciate it.
Quick update for you. Here is the video answer to your question czcams.com/video/-gXVYs17vIU/video.html
@@AllamHouse Awesome! Thanks Dave!
Hi Dave. The fader on our channel 32 on the X32, does not control the volume through the buses, only the Mains. I have followed your video on selecting the bus, pressing Sends on Faders, and raising the fader. All channels are working appropriately, except for channel 32. Channel 32 was setup by the installer as a playback channel using the XLR input with an aux plug for tablets, phones, etc. My church had an analog console and this is my first digital. Your videos have been quite helpful in my learning. Can you please tell me what I am missing? Thank you so much! - Tony
Is there anything that you can suggest?
Typically I prefer to use the AUX in 5/6 for any tablet or other device inputs as it offers both RCA and 1/4" inputs. When you go with a single channel it will usually only take the left side of the audio being sent so you are missing half of the sound from your external device. That being said, here is how I would troubleshoot.
Select the channel and go to Home > Sends and use the knobs under the screen to find the bus you are having problems with. Normally the setting of pre fader or post fader will be determined at the BUS level, but you can change it per input if desired. You want to make sure yours is set to Post Fader.
Thanks! I will troubleshoot as you suggested.
Thank you for your great explanation!
My question is this.
How can I copy the Mixbus?
So, on this console you are able to copy the attributes of the MixBUS (name, color, EQ, Comp, etc) and reload it onto another MixBUS using the library feature (to the right of the screen). Unfortunately, this does NOT copy the actual mix of inputs going into the MixBUS and then re-establish that mix in the new location. You would do that manually which is not ideal, but it is what we all do on this console.
@@AllamHouse Thank you!
Thanks for the video! Two questions,
Could I have a specific bus set as pre-fader, but another be post-fader? For example, If I only want a CD player to be pre-fader (so I can avoid it coming through livestream, but everything else I'd want to be reflective post-fader so I can make my life easy as I'm the only engineer at my church).
Another question is, If I make the singer/instrumental monitors pre-fader, would that prevent them from hearing the EQ changes? (Different EQ in monitor than in house)
Lastly, compression isn't great to have in the singer monitors due to feedback, correct? So would pre-fader also prevent the compression changes in the monitor, but allow them in the house?
Let’s try and roll through these various questions for you.
1) each BUS can be set independently of the rest so you can have any mixture of pre or post fader BUSes. There are some other options as well, but these are the two biggest destinations because it decides of your main input fader will impact the BUS as well.
2) you ask about a CD player not going to the stream and that can be accomplished by muting it in a stream BUS so it is not heard.
3) your monitors for singers/instruments have different tap points that can be used within the Pre-Fader distinction. You can set the tap point as Pre-EQ which will take the signal just after the preamp (gain) and before the EQ/Comp. This would send them the raw signal coming into the board, right back out to the monitor.
4) you mention different EQ for the input vs the monitor. While you don’t have the ability to EQ each input twice, you do have an overall BUS EQ and comp that can be used to shape the overall mix… in this case your monitor.
5) compression does raise the noise floor and can potentially cause feedback if you have floor wedge monitors. I do use compression on my vocals and would use a Pre-EQ tap point if I had to run wedges.
@@AllamHouse Wow, brilliant answers. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I'll be sure to follow-up if I have any others.
@@AllamHouse Hello Allam, just following up: If I set the tap point for Pre-EQ, I lose the ability to control the monitors via fader, correct? I tried changing this tonight and my monitors were extremely loud. I'm assuming because the bare input was coming through and not accounting for my fader setting as it was not set to post-fader. Is there a way I could keep post-fader tap point on the mix bus while also avoiding EQ being sent to the monitor wedges?
Yeah, this is a challenge for sure. The short answer is no, you don’t have a way to send Post Fader AND Pre-EQ to a BUS for a monitor mix. A different option (more complicated) could be using two BUSes where both are set Post Fader and the channel EQ os turned off (or minimal changes). The first would be your monitor and the second could run your channel EQ needs and would go to the house mix. This would take up a second BUS, but could be a solution.
@@AllamHouse Ah, very interesting! It seems like it might just be better to run everything Post-Fader and make sure the monitors are EQ'd effectively to benefit the band. However, compression is harder to get around since it could result in feedback loops.
How does the Mute (or On/Off) affect pre and post fade? thx!
Mute happens just after the preamp in the channel strip flow so a muted channel will be impacted to all pre and post fader MixBUSes.
@@AllamHouse Thx much for response! And for this great video!
Can you come to my church? I’m in Chicago 😀. Great videos!
I do handle individual consultations both in person and remotely. If you want to look into these options, feel free to fill out the contact card on my website at sound.AllamHouse.com
I have always heard of it being hardcoded managers get pre, affects get Post. I just recently did the talent show where I said the backing track media playback channel to the monitor post fader that way I could bring the music up in the house to a good level and set a difference on the monitor channel. This allowed me to turn the music up and down in the house depending on if it was quiet or loud and it would follow in the monitor mix on stage. This got me wondering has anybody else done anything like this. It seems like very few have used Post feeder for monitor mixes that I'm aware of.
And yes thinking of an aux send as essentially a mirror of the mixer almost for video land is a great idea.
Yes, I am a big proponent of running floor wedges (especially to band members) in a Post Fader configuration. This gives me a little more control of the stage volume. I do run my live stream mix as a Post Fader mix as well. You can find that video posted here. czcams.com/video/pMnaiuC55RY/video.html
grrrr speech to text
*almost hardcoded monitors pre, eaffects get Post.
*said = set
This is how I have my own mix setup, except for using MixBus 3-12 for sub-grouping instruments before sending to Matrix 1-2 for Facebook. This allows secondary EQ/Compression and other adjustments to make the FB feed better. Only issue is - doing FoH and FB mixing alone isn't easy. I will record during practice night and play-back before Sunday arrival to try to pre-mix the stream before services start. I will share your video among our team to see if it adds value. I picked up Waves Tracks Live for recording but was using Reaper before that. For some reason, during playback, I end up with more input gain off the recording than when instruments are playing and need to lower output volume from these DAWs to try to mimic the live band. Ever experience that?
Some DAWs are setup to have a raised output by default, but with a little effort you can set it up to do a 0dB output and get the same level coming in that was recorded.
Mixing 2 mixes at the same time is difficult for sure. My church uses this setup with a Post-Fader mix on to our stream and then we have groups that are used for the house instead for different EQ adjustments.
czcams.com/video/pMnaiuC55RY/video.html
@@AllamHouse Thanks Dave, I may record my board setup too and offer a Scene file via Dropbox to whomever wants it. Biggest nag I have from some reviews of other churches is lack of reverb and Fx on their streams. Some sound like they're right in the room with the listener. I've found ways to get the X32 working to sound good on both the PA and stream. Oh and also, you may know an old friend from my growing-up days - Gary Craig at Richmond BMX. His dad ran a bike shop and started BMX tracks back in Niagara Falls, NY where I did a bunch of racing in the early 80s. Say hi for me if you catch up with him.
I think I understand your concepts, but one thing seems to be missing (in this beginner's opinion! ;-) ): WHERE is pre or post fader set up? And how? I see an LED above each BUS mix channel that (I think) identifies if it's been set to PRE-FADER.... but how did it get that way? (Learning to setup and use a Midas M32.)
I actually go into the specifics of setup in various videos depending on what you are building. As an example, here is a video about monitors and the different pre-fader/post fader setups that can be used. czcams.com/video/zwYcNieISF4/video.html
Also, Here is a video that discusses basic setup of a MixBUS for livestreaming. czcams.com/video/Vx4HjArTeZI/video.html
Hi Dave. Are the Post/Pre fader applies to effects bus?
Yes, typically FX would be run Post Fader, but you could change them to be pre-fader.
@@AllamHouse so can i send the effects only to bus without going to the main LR mix?
Yes. This video discusses this topic. You can check the description of the video for some quick links to get you to the FX section of the video. czcams.com/video/pMnaiuC55RY/video.html
@@AllamHouse thank you so much dave! Greetings from Indonesia.
So basically it's a cue monitor button that you find on a Dj mixer but it's just named different.
I watched this video 3x and still confused or missing a step. You used the exsample of the IEM for Pre fade & the live stream for the Post fade. Both are mix buses and you used "Sends on Fader" for both exsamples. So it looked to me you used the exact same procedure on both exsamples! Therefore the question remains, " What is the difference between the two". I understand the concept application. What I'm missing is the set up application procedure.
Ah yes
(1) select the desired MixBUS
(2) push the HOME button next to the screen
(3) go to the Config tab
(4) use the first encoder to choose if the BUS is prefader or post fader.
A prefader mix is set specific to the faders for that BUS and the movement on the main mix does NOT change the BUS mix.
A Post Fader mix will allow you to build a mix and then any changes you make to the main will be ‘followed’ into the BUS.