@@catchingteez 3 wins this comeback and without 27 variations of the same album! Personally, I'm proud of them for cutting back on the waste and dropping the NFTs to match the message. They also didn't use any ads for Bon Voyage which actually only put them something like 3 million views away from Aespa's Spicy and most of the big name groups in K-Pop. Woohoo!
I think that not only chant choruses can be a problem but kpop groups' producers seem to be scared of giving groups a full on bridge to sing so the end of songs tend to feel anti-climatic, especially when some songs are under 3 minutes long. This seems to be especially prevelant in groups under hype.
This! I'm one of those who actually really loves Bite Me, but there's no bridge so I'm left sitting here like.... that's it? Literally half the song is chanting and while I enjoy it, I see why someone else wouldn't. There's not a lot of actual song to counter balance that.
So true. The one thing I hate about most songs nowdays from groups like hybe or yg or even jyp now is that their songs are like 3minutes. The one thing I like about sm songs is that their bridges are mostly full fledged even with dance breaks. That's literally the reason I like aespa because they can make 3 minutes and 30 seconds feel like a rollercoaster
You may have just given me another video idea... because I also hate the shrinking bridges and lacking final choruses. Bite me is such a good example. I love the song, but the length of it physically pains me
@@iGotBulletproof-Insomnia Enhypen Bite Me would have been a way better song if it had a bridge with more vocals and they could have given Sunoo and Heeseung more lines there. Sunoo already had so few lines so a bridge could have given hil more lines. Like Sunoo is the second best vocalist in Enhypen, but always gets less lines.
@@iGotBulletproof-Insomnia i wonder if this also has to do with there being a lack of a 'party chorus'/outro? because for me, i think queencard and bite me are similar in the sense that the sections of the songs sound vastly different from each other -qc having almost a raggae-esque prechorus while bm has a prechorus that sounds like it's from a halloweentown sountrack- and both are under the 2:50 mark. so in theory, they both should sound short right? but for queencard, i don't feel unsatisfied when i finish listening and i think that's largely due to the outro chants. bc of the vibes of bite me though, i totally understand having a slowly fading outro and i'm fine with that. however, i really think that needed to be balanced with a bridge. i personally REALLY wished they made a bridge with the low, droning opening synths: they created the perfect eerie ambiance. hell or even a almost choral-like bridge that ties into the 'oh my oh my god' part. oh well, at least my favorite songs off the album have bridges lmao
I know it's not the main topic, but there's something about vocals that I haven't given much thought before - companies may not provide the right kind of training. And I'm not talking small companies with limited means. Seungmin and Jeongin from skz decided to seek vocal coching outside of jype. Not only you could hear the improvement in their vocals, but also they seem to have more theoretical knowledge. I understand that jype hasn't really been the company to be recognized for killer vocals, but this kind of neglect of a talent is weird to me. I wonder how it works in other companies and if this lack of proper training really stems from the music trends you speak about on the video.
I think that's mostly notable with newer groups responding to changing trends, as performance and dance is more emphasized than vocals nowadays; like looking at GOT7, the direct JYPE predecessors of SKZ, you have some incredibly talented vocals. Big difference there is 3rd gen vs. 4th gen training style. GOT7 could probably handle a SKZ song (GOT7 was THE flying and b-boying 3rd gen boy group launched after 2PM, they can handle choreo), but I don't know that SKZ could handle a GOT7 song. Not hating on SKZ at all, but we have to admit that Youngjae is just built different. And if you look at idols who have been active over longer stretches of time, it's easy to see those trends: the WannaOne boys in CIX and AB6IX are great examples of the changing trends, as are 3rd gen groups like Twice, Monsta X, or Seventeen, who have evolved with the trends to keep up with the heavy focus on performance. It's really interesting to see!
Yeah one part is a heavier focus on dance and performance, but singing without proper technique is harmful in the longterm so not giving them proper training is just harmful on a physical level
Oh yeah, the lack of training has been evident since the beginning of time. Take Aisha from Everglow. She trained for 11 years, and isn’t even in the vocal line. That’s actually absurd. Anyone in the vocal world would be appalled if a vocal teacher’s students weren’t very good after that many years. Same with G-Dragon, Bang Chan, Johnny, etc.
@@chelseeya the GOT7 vocal line isn’t great either. Youngjae is the strongest by far, who trained the least, which sort of shows how good the JYPE vocal training was…
@@horizonkyun7203 I think that for Bang chan and G dragon there was a lot of focus in production and dancing G dragon . He couldn't showcase it propelly during the Bigbang song but he has a really natural flow. As for Bang chan he is also a really good dancer and producer but yeah I think that he should follow seungmin way and seek outside training.
I'd love to see a full in depth analysis on so called "noise music" in kpop. I absolutely hate how people use it as an insult and the fact that there's an actual genre of noise music.
I think so too. SM has been doing experimental “noise” music for a long time now, starting with groups like F(x) and Red Velvet (like ice cream cake). Years later, and now it’s a genre that’s starting to catch on. The only problem is that, while SM producers are starting to become masters in this genre other companies that are following the trend aren’t quite as good at pulling it off. That’s my opinion at least.
I really need NCT esp NCT 127 to go back to Limitless-type songs. Limitless has the perfect balance of being chanty and melodic. The full on chanty choruses are not doing it for me anymore. That’s why NCT Dojaejung is such a refreshing sound to come out of the NCT umbrella
Agree with you so much!!! Limitless is such an amazing song combining singing and chanting. I really hope they'll come out with something like that again, though I'd say Ay-yo was quite close but still not there yet. It's hard to make something as good as Limitless 😄
A video on the lip syncing in the industry would be super interesting, love to hear your thoughts on it and get a discussion started in those comments.
My absolute favourite example of a main vocalist going off with the adlibs while the other members chant the final chorus will always be picky picky by weki meki, that song was a cultural reset tbh
On a completely unrelated but slightly related note, Dreamcatcher's Propose in their latest album has an example of a chant chorus actually working and, as such, it's my most favorite song on the album. I think it's mainly because it suits the concept super well and the lyrics demand chanting, so it works exceptionally well. In conclusion, Dreamcatcher>>>>>>
Personally, I really enjoy NCT's chant choruses because these days its the closest thing there is to all members singing the chorus together. it's basically only sm groups that do that, and even then, only older groups now (snsd, suju, shinee, exo, red velvet, fx when they were active) NCT has a couple of older songs where they do, and now and then a song or two, and aespa barely does it. One of my biggest pet peeves in kpop is groups not singing together, not harmonising, but at this point i've pretty much accepted that I'm only gonna hear it in older sm groups. NCT chant choruses scratch the itch just enough that I don't totally despair on the state of newer kpop. I had the exact same reaction to Guerilla! I'm not particularly a fan of ateez, but guerilla has one of the best instrumentals in all of kpop. its so damn good. and the chorus just ruins that song in every way it could possibly. its like the set out to make the chorus as bad as possible, i swear. i hate it so much. but the rest of the song is so good and... its frustrating.
Songs where the entire group sings the chorus>>>> The chorus of Favorite (Vampire) gave me hope that they might sing more, so I feel you. I love hearing a stacked harmony or just the sheer power of multiple voices on one note. One of my favorite examples would have to be The Chaser by Infinite. Such a banger. As far as 4th generation goes, Verivery's Get Away probably has one of the fullest choruses I've heard. I also love Undercover by them, but the harmonies aren't quite as much at the forefront. If you liked the instrumental of Guerilla but not the chorus, then I would highly recommend you check out Cyberpunk and New World off the same album if you haven't yet. Those two are the real standouts in my opinion. I also was not kidding when I said Halazia was the refined Guerilla. Not as hype until the end, but it's got a much more compelling chorus.
@@catchingteez yes! Favourite is so damn good! And The Chaser is one of the best kpop songs of all time, no contest. One of the things I love about snsd’s music especially is that, even when they’re all singing together, there’s a lead vocal and you can tell who it is, you can hear it’s Taeyeon or Seohyun or Hyoyeon at the forefront. Verivery is one of my favourite groups, and Get Away and Undercover my favourite songs by them 😆 In terms of Ateez, I appreciate the heartfelt suggestions, but I tend to avoid Ateez as much as possible because their songs tend to trigger my sensory processing issues. That’s why I don’t like the chorus of Guerrilla lol. I do really enjoy Halazia tho, and very much agree with what you said about it.
nct does it on bsides its like hidden from people who only know their title tracks also im sad aespa doesn't do it coz i dont understand why sm decided to stop at them and i really wish they would
@@jungwoof yeah their bsides are killer. I also appreciate songs like Lemonade where only a few members (in Lemonade’s case 2) sing and you can clearly distinguish the members voices and what notes they’re singing. Snsd does that quite a bit, and I’m pretty sure it’s smth basically only sm groups do. Aespa does, on occasion. But I really wish SM treated them more like their past groups in that regard. Singing the chorus together is one of the things that makes sm’s music so damn good. They’re a group and they utilise that in a way that only a group can!
f(x) kinda invented this trend and I am kind of surprised you didn't bring them up. Like Red Light by them sounds sounds like some kpop hit from two years ago, but actually came out in 2014
I think another reason rock instrumental choruses work so well is because rock, as a genre, is used to letting instruments stand on their own. The genre known for guitar, bass, and drum solos is gonna know how to make an instrument without vocals over it sound good. It's the prime genre where, a lot of the time, the instruments are the main appeal of an act. There's a reason van halen isn't named after its singer. Even when often the instruments on rock kpop songs aren't played by actual musicians, there's a base of knowledge there that can be used. More stereotypical "noise" music instrumental choruses have to lean on edm methods instead, and they don't always manage to.
Dreamcatcher are the leading female musical aces (considering song quality) in kpop at the moment, in my opinion. They’re just delivering great songs after great songs and they deserve all the attention.
I love you 😭 I can’t believe there are kpop stans on CZcams who have educated opinions and share them in such a easily digested manner who ult ATEEZ ❤ I can’t, I’m here to stay 😭 I’m serious thank you for being here
i think this is why i didn't like unforgiven that much, the stagnation part felt especially true. the chorus felt like it kind of went nowhere. all that pre-chorus build-up felt useless, and the chanting part honestly felt more suitable for something like the bridge or the last chorus? i love the rest of the song tho, the vocals were really pretty~ god, i love ring ma bell ;-; the rock influences and the vocals really shined there as well 😔 i also wanna say that i love your analysis and your voice is so soothing to listen to! (you sound kind of like mera
this reminds me of One Direction, my fav One directions songs are the ones Zayn sings the chorus mainly, because the other members will have a good chorus, sing great, but when they perform live have a habit of shouting it, whereas Zayn it doesnt matter how hype or not he is on stage, he will SANG the chorus properly on stage my fav is Diana, half a heart and Right now
Mayhaps this is a controversial take, but I think chant choruses in K-Pop fall flat most of the time because the groups, themselves, just do not have the coolness factor (the swagger, as the kids like to say) to carry them. Or if they do, they're being directed in ways that don't utilize said cool factor (Pink Venom) or they're given songs that are corny as all fuck (2 Baddies). And, to add insult to injury, the producers don't do anything interesting with the instrumental, either. So you have a flat vocal delivery (which is flat, by nature) combined with a flat instrumental, and it's like... Who the fuck actually wants to listen to this?!
i agree i think it's a mixture of them not executing it properly and there being an influx of a lot of loud songs all doing this. making people think that chanting choruses can't be good.
Yeah like I feel if the group is delivering the chant chorus certain way it can really elevate it. Like Queencard they are just having fun with the song and it's a really fun song so it works for me, even though usually something like that wouldn't be my fave. You have to commit to the song and what it's trying to do.
I agree, I think it can be engaging with examples like G Idle's queencard and Shinee's Hard because the delivery is actually very well done and deliberate, like even though they're not really singing, you're still able to feel a sense of musicality to it and purpose behind the chanty chorus, while with other examples, the chanting isn't engaging at all.
This! I'm just a casual kpop listener, but my obsessed daughter shares all her music with me, and we do kpop Fridays where we watch new release videos. I commented to her that sometimes "Their cool seems so manufactured, like they're trying too hard". I told her it reminds me so much of the 80s hair bands. I questioned if any of the idols lived or believed in what they were singing. But she said it's just about the image and performance, so my POV is way off 🤷♀️
I’m guilty of putting a lot of importance on choruses, and a lot of times if the chorus is bad I stop listening to the song, period🫣. Very few songs on my Kpop playlist have “bad” choruses.
It's a mixed bag imo. I do think that chant choruses can be really hype when they're played straight (for ex. Guerilla) but if it has goofy lyrics like 2 Baddies (when it's supposed to be a "we're cool people" song) it doesn't do it for me. Then again, I feel like it's really up to context. I really like Picky Picky by Weki meki and the lyrics are a little goofy but it's in favor of the concept, unlike 2 Baddies' lyrics (poor Johnny always getting the worst lines as well). Chant choruses are definitely catchy as hell though. I didn't even like Maverick that much when it released but the chorus stuck in my head, almost relentlessly.
Style and concept definitely play a role here. And I really feel you on the Maverick thing. I swear I hated it on first listen and then kept humming "I'm a I'm a I'm a maverick" at least 5 times a day. Also had the Guerilla effect where I loved the post-chorus too much to let it go
@chelseeya I don't agree, but I'm not one to fight about mixx pop anyway. LMLT has gotten as much replay value as Dice for me. Hell, if I listen to one I want to listen to the other!
Although I disagree with your take on Guerrilla, being that I personally love every aspect of it, I think the chaos and the ‘misplacement’ of some things goes with the whole revolution concept. Revolutions are meant to be chaotic, messy, loud and almost too in your face. That chorus sold it for me for that reason. Mind you, I’m a huge metal fan, so I enjoy noisy choruses in general. When you’re talking about overthrowing the government, you might as well scream your lungs out!
This was a blast to watch, and I'll be seated for any longer video on any topic in the future lol. You're so well spoken! Everything was explained providing clear examples, and in general this otherwise 'messy' topic was presented super neatly. A banger!!
14:44 Zimzalabim is indeed a chant somg, we ReVeluvs use it to summon the the depth monster from our cult to punish SMtown for their neglect, mistreatment, and not giving RV a full album since 2017 😡🤬
Bad choruses: a problem Dreamcatcher rarely has. I actually think it's more than just chanting choruses that people don't like, it's also anything that kills the momentum of the song while also not being good or fun enough to stand on its own.
I disliked the first half of Guerrilla’s chorus as well for the exact reason 😂 but like you said, the second half totally brings it all together. Love your videos btw ❤
Great vidéo!! I thought a lot about this recently. For me, personally, it depends on the song’s context. And it really comes down to personal taste A lot of people have been unreceptive to Aespa’s chanting in Spicy. But considering the Bratz concept and their sassy demeanour in this era, I totally get it, and I like it. Same goes for Itzy’s ICY. The teen crush concept fits this vibe perfectly. But there have been other songs where the chanting felt just too overwhelming for me. With all my respect to NCT 127, 2 Baddies is my main example. But then again, it comes to taste, and no matter the musical trend, I think there only good and bad examples of them.
@@catchingteez no problem at all! I really appreciate your hard work for your vid! and that just shows how there are soooo many examples of chanted choruses in kpop lol
I have mixed feelings about most idols not actually singing together and not harmonizing in choruses. I've been a kpop fan for 15+ years, so it kinda throws me off if I compare current most popular songs to 2nd gen songs. But at the same time I do love most of the chant choruses, I love the instrumentals and the catchiness of it. I even got some song recs from your video :D Also, huh, it's the exact opposite for me for the Guerilla chorus. I'm jamming to the 1st half but the 2nd half makes me wince because I find Jongho's vocals too loud and overwhelming on top of the bone-rattling beats. So it's all extremely subjective.
nct's bsides make up for their title tracks.i do understand that people wont check out side tracks if they dont like their titles...but something inside me still wishes that people would 😭 their harmony in the chorus is AMAZING. its so beautiful. but its so hidden and people outside of nct's fandom have no idea. i still like their chant choruses actually. but my fav titles being superhuman and limitless maybe i dont like their chants as much. i also like their mix choruses? for example punch is kinda chanty but theres still a harmony in the second half. overall im a huge fan of sm's way of making their groups sing together in their choruses, so i prefer those choruses in the end. stream cool hot sweet love by red velvet for a phenomenal chorus
kep1er have a baaad case of misusing vocals in favor of chant choruses; we fresh was the biggest perpetrator of this. there are NINE vocalists in that group, and multiple of them didnt get more than adlibs and group vocals. its so beyond frustrating to watch as a fan who literally just. wants. to hear them. sing.
I thought I hated noise music, but then I watched some videos about it and apparently I love noise music. Me actually hating chant choruses makes so much sense now lol. The reverse like Dalla Dalla? Sure, I can work with that, but if I get to the chorus and get chants I'm out. I'm always so salty that Taeil's high note is buried so deep within Kick It. At the same time, Bewitched is one of my favorite songs, maybe because the other parts are rich and the chorus is borderline antidrop and I'm addicted to those.
I saw this title and immediately clicked play. I agree that chant choruses are overused and can make a song boring. It’s one reason I have a love hate relationship with some groups. I did spend the whole video thinking-the chant choruses in Geurrilla worked. I too wasn’t sure about Geurrilla pre release teaser but actually like the song a lot. I think chant choruses done badly are lazy but I also think the chant chorus popularity may be related to the dances. Choruses are often when the height of the dance moves are performed and I think groups opt for chants because it’s easier to do while dancing heavy choreo. I also think it may be a “this formula worked so we are going to do it (or do it again)” but they don’t always repeat the success.
Wow your 2baddies’ experience is exactly the same as mine. And I also wrote somewhere that because of 2baddies’ reputation, the album (which, for me, was a contender for AOTY) didn’t get to shine among general K-pop listeners. And I completely agree with the regression of vocal skills of a trained vocalist in a rap-centric group. I can say the same for NCT 127. That group has nearly 5 good vocalists but they get very less lines in the title track so general listeners are usually very surprised when they see them do covers.
I am slowly catching up to your content and I love it. I mostly dislike chant choruses, but every now and then I hear something that makes me wanna scream that chorus like a maniac
ooo this was an interesting watch!! because while you totally make a lot of good points and i absolutely agree with some things you said, i still just love and adore those chanty choruses so much hahaha 😭😭 i think the sheer energy output you get from having a chorus like that is just soo much fun to listen to, sing/chant along with and i can imagine it must be a lot of fun to perform as well! (although it definitely helps if you like the general 4th gen rap heavy fun-bouncy-cool-energetic style songs like i do because i know that vibe isn't for everyone hahaha) with the bar for what level of choreo groups are expected to pull off constantly being raised i guess companies probably see some extra value in having choruses where the artists can put more focus on dancing and not having to hit specific notes as well? anyway here's a lil list some of my fave ✨chant songs✨ that never fail to get me excited: cravity - boppin', get lifted, pow, jumper p1harmony - black hole, do it like this, new classic, back down, scared bae173 - dash, jaws itzy - 24h, ting ting ting nct 127 - skyscraper drippin - trick and treat onlyoneof - seoul drift everglow - company 24k - super fly atbo - attitude
When i ready the title of the video two songs came to mind. Part A of Maniac chorus by Stray Kids and Good Boy Gone Bad by TXT. Both are amazing songs except... I found the choruses very dull compared to the song. Gotta admit they're earworms for sure tho but I didn't feel like listening to them again and again. Its probably a very unpopular opinion tho. The Chant chorus followed by a Post Chorus subversion is one of my favourite way or using chant choruses too! Halazia by ATEEZ came to mind too and yess you mentioned it! The reverse subversion thing is something that I'd never thought about and I realised how much I love it. Almost every single example that you gave in that section is my favorite.
Now that you bring up TXT, Sugar Rush Ride would have fit in this video too. I loved that song until the second half of the chorus kicked in with the “sugar rush-ush” part.
@@catchingteez same. The prechorus of SRR is so pretty but the whispering part kinda makes it less enjoyable. Choruses really do make or break the song for me.
i love how different our tastes are haha i agree with GBGB because the whole song generally fell flat (probably an overall issue with mixing that's been a little fixture of HYBE) and combining that with a chant chorus wasn't super great? with SRR i think the chanting part (to me) being intercut with the 'gimme gimme more' was really nice, and unlike GBGB the rest of the song was so dynamic and so pretty???; i think the chorus being a little bass heavy compared to the rest of the song (like kitsch and bite me) made a difference as well.
This is such a well-articulated analysis and I am SO sending this to everyone who argues about noise music. My fave part was about how the rock-adjacent songs fit so well with that genre - as someone who grew up on rock, metal, j-rock and visual kei I have a natural tendency to enjoy "loud" songs with very energetic singing and shouting, so I've always felt pretty good about chant choruses. A well done chant is enough to get me to like a song I would otherwise have considered mid. Yet, I've found that many specific kpop songs just don't scratch that itch despite having similar structure, and I think I know why : there's something to be said about the emotion a chant is supposed to bring. Be it excitement, exaltation, anger, rage, it NEEDS to express something strong, and most importantly of all : it's a communal activity. You can scream alone, but you cannot chant alone. I feel like it's such a big part of why the chanting works so well when there are ad-libs and layered vocals : because you can hear the plurality of voices who are chanting and feeling alongside you. A sub earned for this beautiful video -- and also because I was ready to throw hands when Ring my bell wasn't in the rock section, but was wonderfully showcased later on 😌
I've always thought that SKZ choruses especially in their title tracks are what pull the song down and feel repetitive. I usually have to look past the choruses to enjoy their TTs. Exceptions are Thunderous and MIROH!
i do like a lot of chant chorus songs but in some ways its because they're easier for my brain to process. they work as good background noise thats just the right amount of catchy and fun that won't distract me from my work. like lesserafim's eve, psyche and bluebeards wife b side is basically an overgrown chant chorus, but that just makes it easy to digest. On the other hand i dont often listen to ateez music while i work bc their music demands to be listened to. Its like what youtube shorts is to longform video essays. Theres a deeper connection there about how kpop is the fast fashion of music but I'm not smart enough to do a whole essay on it, lol. p.s. somniatinys represent!!!!! 🤝🤝
I'm a "if it's done well" **Black Pink voice** Typ'a Girl~. And that feels like a cop out, I know, but for every twenty songs that has me cursing out this trend, there's five that makes my monkey hind brain go fucking nuts, like... Don't play God's Menu, Aju Nice, Kick It, Savage, How You Like That (there are so many more examples, I just can't think of them right now) around me, and expect me to act like a normal, well adjusted member of society. Don't set yourself *and* me up for failure like that. Chant choruses, in my opinion, fall into the realm of one or two groups doing them in a way that has everyone and their mother losing their mind, so a million others try to copy it. But ultimately what happens is that most of those copycats don't understand what elevated those early examples, so it falls flat. Chant choruses are up there with tropical pop and anti drops as the most hated trends in pop music when they're rly not that bad. We've just been inundated with so many flops that we forgot why we liked them in the first place.
I absolutely love your videos and I can listen to you talk about ATEEZ's music and why it's soo cool for hours! There are things in their music that I hear and absorb but can never quite express as well as you do! As for chanty finale choruses, goddamn they're so Satisfying. Screaming the final chant chorus for Guerrilla feels like therapy haha. Another banger of a video! Keep 'em coming!
i feel like you plucked a bunch of vague thoughts i’ve had about chant choruses directly from my brain and made a cohesive video essay with them. basically, hard agree with almost everything you said i also confess that even as an atiny i’m ambivalent about guerilla; I’m absolutely obsessed with hongjoong and mingi’s rap sections but i can’t stand the chorus. to me, chant choruses feel cheap, like you don’t trust your vocalists to carry a real chorus. for me, chant choruses done right tend to be as a post chorus after a real musical chorus. the preeminent example i can think of is 2NE1’s come back home; the chorus is musically pretty and the somewhat chanty post-chorus adds a little flavor that the song would otherwise be missing but i don’t think it’s a coincidence that my ult group, exo, has never done anything resembling a chant chorus.
Not to much to add to th video, loved it btw, but god can I agree w the part about 2 baddies and nct in general. I am not the biggest nct fan, I was rather a hater until last summer I listend to one of their bsides and dowloaded their whole discography and actually listend to it (summer w no wifi yk) and suddenly I saw the appeal of nct as a whole. Most of their title track rank very low for me but the b sides?? I fell in love. They stilll had the experimental vibe from their title track but their vocals were shining, there was nothing to hate. I still dont stan them.... but they are for sure my favoirte bg, including all of their subunits!! (Wayv has a special place in my heart)
on the subversion topic, i remember when the face the sun highlight medley dropped people were so disappointed that seventeen were going for an "empty" chant chorus with hot and then when the whole song dropped and the post chorus was much more complex (while still arguably a bit chanty there was way more melody) everyone suddenly loved the song. and maybe it speaks to my complete faith in woozi and bumzu but i kind of always knew a section like that was lurking around the corner when the first snippet dropped (they also do a similar thing in super!)
I definitely base my favorite songs on their choruses. That's should be the highlight of the song!! You've shown most of the groups I would name as having great beats but flat/repetitive choruses. It gives the impression they _couldn't_ write something fitting, or they prioritized the ability to go harder on the choreo, so singing won't be a struggle.
speaking of vocalists being limited to prechoruses, and instrumental changes, something that is very hit or miss for me is when pretty much the whole song is rap and then there's a really melodic prechorus with a totally different instrumental. it can feel very jarring. skz do this a lot (i am a stay ok i'm not hating), most of the time it works for them but with s-class i didn't get it.
I felt that with God's Menu so hard! Everyone was talking about how pretty the pre-chorus was but it threw me for an absolute loop the first 10 times I listened to it. I loved the song, but it took me a while to adjust
Ah... I just came back to this video and realized I missed something.. the "lock your trainees in a room and let them improve their dancing cost free" line. That actually IS how most agencies treat singing as well. Trainees might get a weekly vocal lesson (if they are lucky and are slated to be the main or lead vocalist in a group), and the rest is literally them just practicing singing on their own. So of course they will never really improve no matter how long of a training period they have. A weekly lesson at most barely teaches anything, and continuing to practice afterwards on your own without anyone there to call you on bad technique, you just further instill bad habits that need to be completely broken before they can even be trained correctly. I think we can all agree that it trainees were receiving vocal lessons one on one every day or even just 2 or 3 times a week, we wouldn't have people debuting with 2+ years as a trainee under their belt while still not being able to hit a note properly.
It's so funny because I was really in rock music specifically Sreamo Rock in middle school. So when people were talking about "Noise Music" in Kpop becoming overdone especially when came to RV and Stray Kids which I remember getting the most hate in the beginning but I was like what because it was so normal to me. Guerilla is my favorite track probably to Top 10 for me and it is because of the rock influence screamo.
your feelings about GUERILLA is my feelings for BONVOYAGE. I hated the song, I hated it so so much I stop like 15 seconds in. BUt then I was watching kpop tiktoks here on yt, and the chorus and the end have NOT left my mind ever since
My friend just sent me your channel and oh my gosh. I adored this video and cannot wait to binge everything else you've made. I've been experiencing good kpop video essay withdraws with chaebin-n-out and mera not posting and you are overflowing through the gap that's left. Incredible humor and excellent analysis, excited to watch more!!!!!
Hello from a former All-Stater :) and fellow Atiny. I share many of your takes on Ateez and Kpop in general, and I enjoy hearing your well thought out points and opinions.
Thank you so much for this video, I found it really helpful and informative! As a total music amateur, I never had the language to describe my feelings about this concept- I'd tell my friends, "Yeah I'm not super into NCT releases cuz of the- the gang vocals where they kinda shout non-melodically. No likey." Now I know there's proper terminology for it and you helped me figure out the reasons why it doesn't super appeal to me. At the same time you clearly explained different varieties with examples that showed me there are many songs like this I actually adore but didn't recognize as chant choruses! I feel like I learned a lot and that this half-hour flew by. I look forward to more analyses like this; thank you for your hard work and contributions to the kpop fan community :) (also fellow somniatiny here lol)
this is kind of why i stopped listening to blackpink around 2018, i felt like the songs became lazy and repetitive with their chant choruses since the company knows their fans will eat anything up and i just lost interest. i still keep up with the girls but i just lost interest in their music and found other artist to stan in between blackpinks long hiatus.
I am one of those who loved gorilla in the first listen but it might be because I came to kpop after having linkin park , creed , evanescence as part of my playlist for years along with other bands so ateez song i was wanting more rock element
I really liked the first half of the guerilla chorus a lot because it makes so much sense within their lore like they're singing about their resolutions of the revolution they're leading, so it just makes sense to me that they're chanting it and then jongho comes in and that feels like so emotional? and like as you said without the chanting the second half would be way less impactful, so i'm glad the chorus is built like that. I feel like a lot of stuff which I usually wouldn't be the biggest fan of just works well within the context of their lore. For example in Sector 1 the second half of the chorus would usually be a turn off for me but the impact it has because of the meaning behind the song? so crazy. like i makes me feel like the break the wall part in guerilla does like the chanting makes their music so immersive that i can like easily and so vividly envision this revolution whenever i hear those songs. I also just love ateez and the direction their music is taking so I could praise anything they do musically because i am very heart eyes for their music if you get what i mean ahsjdj this got longer than i planned also i'm sorry if some things don't make sense english isnt my first language and talking about ateez gets me all excited ashdjf
It's my personal hot take that Iz*one made what most people would consider noise music. It's just that no one thinks to call it that because it's "cuter-sounding" than the usual intense and gritty stuff
I saw this in my recommended and wow- I'm going to have to check out more of your videos now! I agree with a lot of this, and my biggest beef with chant-style choruses is when the chorus feels empty, whether the singers aren't able to carry them or the instrumental is lacking. A good example for me is Guerilla, and Pink Venom is where a chant chorus falls flat for me, because there's just not enough in the chorus.
chant choruses can be hit or miss for me even though i'm a "noise music" skeptic. i rant about the oversaturation of (bad) chant choruses in kpop all the time and also what i simply call "boy group shouting" in general. i'm a queer woman i really don't want men to shout in my ear all the time! i think that it's fair and logical that kpop has become more performance and visual focused given its developments and the pandemic in general but i implore the labels to remember that people like me mostly consume this music without the visuals: i'm not always in front of a screen watching performances or watching the music videos, most of the time i'm just listening to the song itself! visual elements like choreo and mvs etc. are great but at the end of the day i need the music that's being put out to be listenable even without flashy dance moves and stunning videography.
also, this is unrelated, but I do hope you make a video for A.C.E, like when they are all back from the army. The children needs to be educated, and the group needs the promo. like ACE is so nugu, its existence is practically an urban legend at this point.
I can't think of anything I would do a full video on for them, but I try to keep smaller groups like them in mind when coming up with examples or choosing fancams. I'll agree that they're criminally underappreciated
@@catchingteez there's many things you can do. Struggles of small company despite good music Niche music genre (they did extreme hardcore at start) Changing concepts and genre for almost every comeback. Just extremely good vical style in general. Struggles of getting a first win 🥹. But it seems you are very unfamiliar with them, so I understand not making a video on them. We are very used to them being underrated.
Boy group names are so hard to get right these days 😭 (I complain as a boy group stan) But Goosebumps deserves so much better tbh. If NCT released that song people would have been all over it
I feel like chant choruses are kind of like the beat drop/pure instrumental choruses, people started complaining about them at some point but they fade away wayyy later because they still sell as if it's a wave that needs to hit the shore and can't be stopped earlier than it would naturally. (unfortunately the usual case of things fading out of the industry rather than actually getting improved on) The difference between the two "chorus types" is probably that the beat drop chorus came before the chant chorus and people liked/tolerate(d) it for so long cuz they were just glad we had some crumbs of lyrics.
this is the kind of discussions I can get behind i have nothing else to say because yes i agree bc so many songs get WRECKED by bad choruses if i can't listen to the chorus i can't listen to the song imo
Great video, but I'm kind of surprised you left out the crown prince of "relies on its instrumental for an effective chorus and is overhated because of it", Side Effects... talk about a song that got shafted because people just didn't hear the genius of it. Also on the subject of Guerilla, I honestly feel like even without the double time part, the chorus works solely because of how radically dissonant it is for a chorus? Like it makes you so viscerally uncomfortable because of how aggressively out of place the chords are. I cant think of a chorus that throws you further out of your comfort zone than Guerilla. Its freakin genius lmao
wow that outro was bomb! what song is it from?? (not to take away from this very insightful video! very articulate and not too long at all, i am newly subscribed!) 😁
this opinion is so interesting and wild to me. I think I have the complete opposite opinion. I LIVE for chant choruses. 2 baddies is my jam, guerilla's chant is my jam, icky is MY JAM. I never knew there were so many people that don't like these types of choruses. It feels like a personal attack lol. I am certainly a chant chorus fanatic.
mmh now I'm interested in hearing your opinion on Unforgiven by Lesserafim, cause i think that song has a horrible chant chorus that feels flat and kills the whole momentum , it ruined the song for me honestly, and i was surprised it wasn't included here
omg thank u this is why i can’t listen to most bg music cause the chant choruses are so difficult to listen to 😭 like it makes me uncomfortable lol & paired with the fact that half of the time if they have english lyrics theyre written horribly…yeah turn it off
Ok after watching this entire video, I'm fully convinced that you just picked any random topic to talk about, just so you could play Bon Voyage in all it's glory throughout the video and hypnotise people into stanning Dreamcather and I'm not mad at you!! Haha but seriously really great and interesting video! and being an ATEEZ stan with a love/hate relationship with chant choruses is truly humanity's greatest test 🥲
I'm not opposed to a chant chorus because just like you said, chanting = unga bunga no thoughts just excitement. PLUS I am literally an NCT 127 Ult so noise music is my bread and butter. That being said I literally feel like there are two types of noise music in kpop - SKZ sounding noise and NCT sounding noise. Case in point I am yet to meet a person who is a stan of both groups at the same time, I dislike most skz music, and my stay friends dislike most nct music. If you're not getting what I'm trying to say, imagine nct's agressive slamming on pots and pans sound in a skz song. Correct me if I'm wrong but most of the skz songs I've heard don't have that same kind of pot and pan clashing. ALSO, I hated Guerilla at first. For like...a good few months. Jongho's rythamtic screaming sounded so random and out of place to me and that's crazy because I like rock music and I'm not against metal music. And yetttttt Guerilla picked my last nerve. I appreciate it now, but it's still probably my least favourite tt from ateez. Halazia supremacy because Eden-ary really perfected what they were trying to get across.
I think the NCT vs Stray Kids noise fans could also be because NCT is suuuuuper experimental most of the time. They rely on really out there instrumentals, whereas Stray Kids will still experiment but generally stick to their genre. And I would also consider Guerilla their worst if it weren't for the 🔥 rap sections AND the fact that they snuck some screamo in there. I have to give them respect for having the balls to throw screamo into the kpop ring (because I really wish more groups would experiment with it)
I just discovered this video, and I am more of a casual listener to kpop (but an ARMY) and I will say I agree with a lot that was said. I also will add it isn't just chorus but when it is a dance break that uses chants it can ruin the songs as well. I think personally, I very much don't like the chanting choruses that pretty much have zero singing (however it depends on the song but majority of the time I don't like it). The most recent example for me is Bite Me by Enhypen. I LOVED everything about the song except the chorus because of the awful chanting. If it wasn't for the chorus, it would be on my playlist. I will also agree with 2 Baddies by NCT and many others... When it sometimes works: I haven't heard most of these songs I will be honest but the ones that I heard the small parts you played I liked: Zimalabim by Red Velvet and Venom by BVNDT (maybe Scream by Dreamcatcher). Post-Chorus: I personally have mixed feelings about these. If there isn't a big chanting part in the song but they do have one in the post chorus, I think it can also make and break and song just as much if there is a chant in the chorus. Also, if there is a chant in the chorus but I loved the post chorus I most likely won't put it onto my playlist still because I want to like the song from A to Z, beginning to end. Side Note: ..just some food for thought...I highly recommend people (not all just some) learn to differentiate groups/artists/solo artists under Hybe differently than just saying Hybe because each subsidiary runs differently. I think people get confused how Hybe is run compared other kpop companies. You can't label everything about Hybe based on a what a subsidiary or some subsidiaries (or a group or few groups under different Hybe) because they are all run differently based on how the subsidiaries under Hybe want to run. All Hybe does is oversee (but they don't touch unless necessary) and to give each subsidiary money/budget...For example, BTS and TXT are under Bighit subsidiary, and they run differently than other subsidiaries under Hybe. Another example would be Scooter Braun which has artists like Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande is now under Hybe making them now a subsidiary, but they still run differently than other subsidiaries.... Anyways all I am trying to say is be cautious when you generalize Hybe because each subsidiary is run in their own way and differently. I do understand though if one is forming an opinion though on majority of what one hears from most kpop groups under hybe, but one still need to be cautions, especially when trying to place blame on something on the wrong place. So basically, think of Be:lift, Adara, Bighit, etc. instead of generalizing under the blanket, Hybe, so to speak. Hopefully this makes sense. This isn't hate to anyone. Also, I want to be clear I am not a company stan just want to people to understand better where to place blame or in just in general...
With how much you used love me like this as clips to play in the background, I’m surprised it wasn’t an example for highlighting adlibs. I mean if you’ve seen the stage practice for love me like this, you can’t tell me the adlibs during the 2nd and 3rd chorus don’t stand out in the best way possible (imo) Also I feel like another example of highlighting adlibs during the chorus could be maniac
When it comes to adlibs, theyre everywhere, but usually theyre found in groups that do pop-y songs but have a strong vocalist. Probably every single Twice title track has them, VIXX, probably some NCT songs and Mamamoo (Mr. Ambiguous, their debut song, has all three of the vocalists do ad libs and its a beautiful song I love it)
11:40 i was the exact same way. I sang all through grade school in various programs, but once I went to college there was zero singing for me. I think about it a lot, but life is lifing rn, so haven’t gotten around to singing again.
12:00 it’s true though I think people don’t realize that your voice IS an instrument. And like an instrument it needs to be used to keep it working and also taken care of to make sure it doesn’t break. I’m by no means a singer, but I did musical theater in high school. I’ve always loved to sing even if I’m not great at it. I’ve always thought I have a bad voice but I’ve had many musically talented friends tell me I have a decent voice I just need to learn to use it right. In high school, in musical theater I used it all the time and while it wasn’t GREAT, I was frequently practicing and stretching the muscles which kept my voice in decent shape. Then I went to college and switched to straight plays and stopped consistently singing. I still do on occasion, when I go to church on sundays, or when I’m backstage helping my alma mater drama club, we always need extra voices so they have us singing backstage to add onto it (I’m a makeup artist so I’m backstage to touch up makeup all the time). But I don’t use it as frequently as I used to, on top of the fact in early 2020 I ended up in the hospital with a bad case of pneumonia that I almost died from (I’m not just saying that my doctor told me I was in a very bad state and could have died if I had waited any longer to come see her). Due to the pneumonia my lungs took a significant hit I’ve still not fully recovered from, so that’s also weakened my voice. Ik if I spent more time practicing I’d improve and get my breath control/lung capacity back but I’m unfortunately not in a place where I have frequent opportunities anymore.
The shameless dreamcatcher promotion is incredible, we love it
Gotta pull for my girls 😂
@@catchingteez 3 wins this comeback and without 27 variations of the same album! Personally, I'm proud of them for cutting back on the waste and dropping the NFTs to match the message. They also didn't use any ads for Bon Voyage which actually only put them something like 3 million views away from Aespa's Spicy and most of the big name groups in K-Pop. Woohoo!
@@killbethy 4 wins I think? But either way they rily ended this trilogy with a bang
I think that not only chant choruses can be a problem but kpop groups' producers seem to be scared of giving groups a full on bridge to sing so the end of songs tend to feel anti-climatic, especially when some songs are under 3 minutes long. This seems to be especially prevelant in groups under hype.
This! I'm one of those who actually really loves Bite Me, but there's no bridge so I'm left sitting here like.... that's it? Literally half the song is chanting and while I enjoy it, I see why someone else wouldn't. There's not a lot of actual song to counter balance that.
So true. The one thing I hate about most songs nowdays from groups like hybe or yg or even jyp now is that their songs are like 3minutes. The one thing I like about sm songs is that their bridges are mostly full fledged even with dance breaks. That's literally the reason I like aespa because they can make 3 minutes and 30 seconds feel like a rollercoaster
You may have just given me another video idea... because I also hate the shrinking bridges and lacking final choruses. Bite me is such a good example. I love the song, but the length of it physically pains me
@@iGotBulletproof-Insomnia Enhypen Bite Me would have been a way better song if it had a bridge with more vocals and they could have given Sunoo and Heeseung more lines there. Sunoo already had so few lines so a bridge could have given hil more lines. Like Sunoo is the second best vocalist in Enhypen, but always gets less lines.
@@iGotBulletproof-Insomnia i wonder if this also has to do with there being a lack of a 'party chorus'/outro? because for me, i think queencard and bite me are similar in the sense that the sections of the songs sound vastly different from each other -qc having almost a raggae-esque prechorus while bm has a prechorus that sounds like it's from a halloweentown sountrack- and both are under the 2:50 mark. so in theory, they both should sound short right? but for queencard, i don't feel unsatisfied when i finish listening and i think that's largely due to the outro chants.
bc of the vibes of bite me though, i totally understand having a slowly fading outro and i'm fine with that. however, i really think that needed to be balanced with a bridge. i personally REALLY wished they made a bridge with the low, droning opening synths: they created the perfect eerie ambiance. hell or even a almost choral-like bridge that ties into the 'oh my oh my god' part. oh well, at least my favorite songs off the album have bridges lmao
i love the dreamcatcher and ateez agenda
And I will continue to push it as long as I can 😂
So this is the reason why I loved Aespa's Spicy. On second listen, I really caught the vibe of the half chant chorus!!
I'm still so mad I forgot to throw it in there... Peak example and I just missed it
YESSS LIKE CHANT AD LIBS!!!!
I love hearing Dreamcatcher in all the transitions
I had 7 sections for 7 members. It was too perfect
I know it's not the main topic, but there's something about vocals that I haven't given much thought before - companies may not provide the right kind of training. And I'm not talking small companies with limited means. Seungmin and Jeongin from skz decided to seek vocal coching outside of jype. Not only you could hear the improvement in their vocals, but also they seem to have more theoretical knowledge. I understand that jype hasn't really been the company to be recognized for killer vocals, but this kind of neglect of a talent is weird to me.
I wonder how it works in other companies and if this lack of proper training really stems from the music trends you speak about on the video.
I think that's mostly notable with newer groups responding to changing trends, as performance and dance is more emphasized than vocals nowadays; like looking at GOT7, the direct JYPE predecessors of SKZ, you have some incredibly talented vocals. Big difference there is 3rd gen vs. 4th gen training style. GOT7 could probably handle a SKZ song (GOT7 was THE flying and b-boying 3rd gen boy group launched after 2PM, they can handle choreo), but I don't know that SKZ could handle a GOT7 song. Not hating on SKZ at all, but we have to admit that Youngjae is just built different.
And if you look at idols who have been active over longer stretches of time, it's easy to see those trends: the WannaOne boys in CIX and AB6IX are great examples of the changing trends, as are 3rd gen groups like Twice, Monsta X, or Seventeen, who have evolved with the trends to keep up with the heavy focus on performance. It's really interesting to see!
Yeah one part is a heavier focus on dance and performance, but singing without proper technique is harmful in the longterm so not giving them proper training is just harmful on a physical level
Oh yeah, the lack of training has been evident since the beginning of time. Take Aisha from Everglow. She trained for 11 years, and isn’t even in the vocal line. That’s actually absurd. Anyone in the vocal world would be appalled if a vocal teacher’s students weren’t very good after that many years. Same with G-Dragon, Bang Chan, Johnny, etc.
@@chelseeya the GOT7 vocal line isn’t great either. Youngjae is the strongest by far, who trained the least, which sort of shows how good the JYPE vocal training was…
@@horizonkyun7203 I think that for Bang chan and G dragon there was a lot of focus in production and dancing G dragon . He couldn't showcase it propelly during the Bigbang song but he has a really natural flow. As for Bang chan he is also a really good dancer and producer but yeah I think that he should follow seungmin way and seek outside training.
I'd love to see a full in depth analysis on so called "noise music" in kpop. I absolutely hate how people use it as an insult and the fact that there's an actual genre of noise music.
I think so too. SM has been doing experimental “noise” music for a long time now, starting with groups like F(x) and Red Velvet (like ice cream cake). Years later, and now it’s a genre that’s starting to catch on. The only problem is that, while SM producers are starting to become masters in this genre other companies that are following the trend aren’t quite as good at pulling it off. That’s my opinion at least.
I really need NCT esp NCT 127 to go back to Limitless-type songs. Limitless has the perfect balance of being chanty and melodic. The full on chanty choruses are not doing it for me anymore. That’s why NCT Dojaejung is such a refreshing sound to come out of the NCT umbrella
Agree with you so much!!! Limitless is such an amazing song combining singing and chanting. I really hope they'll come out with something like that again, though I'd say Ay-yo was quite close but still not there yet. It's hard to make something as good as Limitless 😄
A video on the lip syncing in the industry would be super interesting, love to hear your thoughts on it and get a discussion started in those comments.
Noted!
the way vocals are overedited these days in kpop, whats even the difference
@@user-ij5sp4zv5h Can’t say I disagree, depends on the definition of lip syncing and the purpose of it
While I absolutely understand your disliking of 2 Baddies my gremlin brain just loves how UNHINGED the chorus is, especially the final chorus
Tbh I can absolutely understand you liking 2 Baddies because that instrumental is dangerously close to scratching my brain in all the right places
My absolute favourite example of a main vocalist going off with the adlibs while the other members chant the final chorus will always be picky picky by weki meki, that song was a cultural reset tbh
On a completely unrelated but slightly related note, Dreamcatcher's Propose in their latest album has an example of a chant chorus actually working and, as such, it's my most favorite song on the album. I think it's mainly because it suits the concept super well and the lyrics demand chanting, so it works exceptionally well. In conclusion, Dreamcatcher>>>>>>
I don't think propose has a chant chorus...they're singing during the whole chorus
Another one like that is wind blows… it’s definitely a chant but it’s so fun and so distinctly dreamcatcher that it works
nah, Propose doesn't have a chant chorus. it has pretty heavy and melodic vocals in the chorus.
its smt i love about ateez specifically as well bc they always bring flavour along with this style
Personally, I really enjoy NCT's chant choruses because these days its the closest thing there is to all members singing the chorus together. it's basically only sm groups that do that, and even then, only older groups now (snsd, suju, shinee, exo, red velvet, fx when they were active) NCT has a couple of older songs where they do, and now and then a song or two, and aespa barely does it. One of my biggest pet peeves in kpop is groups not singing together, not harmonising, but at this point i've pretty much accepted that I'm only gonna hear it in older sm groups. NCT chant choruses scratch the itch just enough that I don't totally despair on the state of newer kpop.
I had the exact same reaction to Guerilla! I'm not particularly a fan of ateez, but guerilla has one of the best instrumentals in all of kpop. its so damn good. and the chorus just ruins that song in every way it could possibly. its like the set out to make the chorus as bad as possible, i swear. i hate it so much. but the rest of the song is so good and... its frustrating.
Songs where the entire group sings the chorus>>>>
The chorus of Favorite (Vampire) gave me hope that they might sing more, so I feel you. I love hearing a stacked harmony or just the sheer power of multiple voices on one note. One of my favorite examples would have to be The Chaser by Infinite. Such a banger. As far as 4th generation goes, Verivery's Get Away probably has one of the fullest choruses I've heard. I also love Undercover by them, but the harmonies aren't quite as much at the forefront.
If you liked the instrumental of Guerilla but not the chorus, then I would highly recommend you check out Cyberpunk and New World off the same album if you haven't yet. Those two are the real standouts in my opinion. I also was not kidding when I said Halazia was the refined Guerilla. Not as hype until the end, but it's got a much more compelling chorus.
@@catchingteez yes! Favourite is so damn good! And The Chaser is one of the best kpop songs of all time, no contest. One of the things I love about snsd’s music especially is that, even when they’re all singing together, there’s a lead vocal and you can tell who it is, you can hear it’s Taeyeon or Seohyun or Hyoyeon at the forefront.
Verivery is one of my favourite groups, and Get Away and Undercover my favourite songs by them 😆
In terms of Ateez, I appreciate the heartfelt suggestions, but I tend to avoid Ateez as much as possible because their songs tend to trigger my sensory processing issues. That’s why I don’t like the chorus of Guerrilla lol. I do really enjoy Halazia tho, and very much agree with what you said about it.
nct’s songs and guerilla >>>>>>>
nct does it on bsides its like hidden from people who only know their title tracks also im sad aespa doesn't do it coz i dont understand why sm decided to stop at them and i really wish they would
@@jungwoof yeah their bsides are killer. I also appreciate songs like Lemonade where only a few members (in Lemonade’s case 2) sing and you can clearly distinguish the members voices and what notes they’re singing. Snsd does that quite a bit, and I’m pretty sure it’s smth basically only sm groups do. Aespa does, on occasion. But I really wish SM treated them more like their past groups in that regard. Singing the chorus together is one of the things that makes sm’s music so damn good. They’re a group and they utilise that in a way that only a group can!
f(x) kinda invented this trend and I am kind of surprised you didn't bring them up. Like Red Light by them sounds sounds like some kpop hit from two years ago, but actually came out in 2014
I think another reason rock instrumental choruses work so well is because rock, as a genre, is used to letting instruments stand on their own. The genre known for guitar, bass, and drum solos is gonna know how to make an instrument without vocals over it sound good. It's the prime genre where, a lot of the time, the instruments are the main appeal of an act. There's a reason van halen isn't named after its singer. Even when often the instruments on rock kpop songs aren't played by actual musicians, there's a base of knowledge there that can be used. More stereotypical "noise" music instrumental choruses have to lean on edm methods instead, and they don't always manage to.
A kpop commentary channel that doesn’t just shit on kpop groups, this is refreshing!
Siyeons high note in propse is life saving. yes THE high note.
Dreamcatcher are the leading female musical aces (considering song quality) in kpop at the moment, in my opinion. They’re just delivering great songs after great songs and they deserve all the attention.
I'm realizing that a lot of MAMA nominees last year had chant choruses.
I love you 😭 I can’t believe there are kpop stans on CZcams who have educated opinions and share them in such a easily digested manner who ult ATEEZ ❤ I can’t, I’m here to stay 😭 I’m serious thank you for being here
😂😂😂😂 this comment
i think this is why i didn't like unforgiven that much, the stagnation part felt especially true. the chorus felt like it kind of went nowhere. all that pre-chorus build-up felt useless, and the chanting part honestly felt more suitable for something like the bridge or the last chorus? i love the rest of the song tho, the vocals were really pretty~
god, i love ring ma bell ;-; the rock influences and the vocals really shined there as well 😔
i also wanna say that i love your analysis and your voice is so soothing to listen to! (you sound kind of like mera
this reminds me of One Direction, my fav One directions songs are the ones Zayn sings the chorus mainly, because the other members will have a good chorus, sing great, but when they perform live have a habit of shouting it, whereas Zayn it doesnt matter how hype or not he is on stage, he will SANG the chorus properly on stage
my fav is Diana, half a heart and Right now
Mayhaps this is a controversial take, but I think chant choruses in K-Pop fall flat most of the time because the groups, themselves, just do not have the coolness factor (the swagger, as the kids like to say) to carry them. Or if they do, they're being directed in ways that don't utilize said cool factor (Pink Venom) or they're given songs that are corny as all fuck (2 Baddies). And, to add insult to injury, the producers don't do anything interesting with the instrumental, either. So you have a flat vocal delivery (which is flat, by nature) combined with a flat instrumental, and it's like...
Who the fuck actually wants to listen to this?!
i agree i think it's a mixture of them not executing it properly and there being an influx of a lot of loud songs all doing this. making people think that chanting choruses can't be good.
2 baddies >>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah like I feel if the group is delivering the chant chorus certain way it can really elevate it. Like Queencard they are just having fun with the song and it's a really fun song so it works for me, even though usually something like that wouldn't be my fave.
You have to commit to the song and what it's trying to do.
I agree, I think it can be engaging with examples like G Idle's queencard and Shinee's Hard because the delivery is actually very well done and deliberate, like even though they're not really singing, you're still able to feel a sense of musicality to it and purpose behind the chanty chorus, while with other examples, the chanting isn't engaging at all.
This! I'm just a casual kpop listener, but my obsessed daughter shares all her music with me, and we do kpop Fridays where we watch new release videos. I commented to her that sometimes "Their cool seems so manufactured, like they're trying too hard". I told her it reminds me so much of the 80s hair bands. I questioned if any of the idols lived or believed in what they were singing. But she said it's just about the image and performance, so my POV is way off 🤷♀️
I’m guilty of putting a lot of importance on choruses, and a lot of times if the chorus is bad I stop listening to the song, period🫣. Very few songs on my Kpop playlist have “bad” choruses.
If you couldn't tell from my rant on 2 Baddies, I am largely the same 😂
Honestly same
same,it especially hurts when the pre chorus is actually good..🥹
It's a mixed bag imo. I do think that chant choruses can be really hype when they're played straight (for ex. Guerilla) but if it has goofy lyrics like 2 Baddies (when it's supposed to be a "we're cool people" song) it doesn't do it for me. Then again, I feel like it's really up to context. I really like Picky Picky by Weki meki and the lyrics are a little goofy but it's in favor of the concept, unlike 2 Baddies' lyrics (poor Johnny always getting the worst lines as well). Chant choruses are definitely catchy as hell though. I didn't even like Maverick that much when it released but the chorus stuck in my head, almost relentlessly.
Style and concept definitely play a role here. And I really feel you on the Maverick thing. I swear I hated it on first listen and then kept humming "I'm a I'm a I'm a maverick" at least 5 times a day. Also had the Guerilla effect where I loved the post-chorus too much to let it go
Love Me Like This is a good example of chant chorus + ad libs. They do adlibs in all three choruses I think?
People angry about losing the mix-pop... the mix is the chant-chorus and insane ad-libbing.
I've solved it!!!!!
I genuinely don't understand how I missed that. Biggest facepalm of my life right here 😂
@chelseeya I don't agree, but I'm not one to fight about mixx pop anyway. LMLT has gotten as much replay value as Dice for me. Hell, if I listen to one I want to listen to the other!
Although I disagree with your take on Guerrilla, being that I personally love every aspect of it, I think the chaos and the ‘misplacement’ of some things goes with the whole revolution concept. Revolutions are meant to be chaotic, messy, loud and almost too in your face. That chorus sold it for me for that reason. Mind you, I’m a huge metal fan, so I enjoy noisy choruses in general. When you’re talking about overthrowing the government, you might as well scream your lungs out!
I’ve come to embrace the chanting over time just because of the pure anger behind it all. Especially after the Flag version dropped 🔥🔥🔥
This was a blast to watch, and I'll be seated for any longer video on any topic in the future lol. You're so well spoken! Everything was explained providing clear examples, and in general this otherwise 'messy' topic was presented super neatly. A banger!!
I was worried people might not like a longer video, so this is reassuring to hear. Thank you!
14:44 Zimzalabim is indeed a chant somg, we ReVeluvs use it to summon the the depth monster from our cult to punish SMtown for their neglect, mistreatment, and not giving RV a full album since 2017 😡🤬
Bad choruses: a problem Dreamcatcher rarely has. I actually think it's more than just chanting choruses that people don't like, it's also anything that kills the momentum of the song while also not being good or fun enough to stand on its own.
i felt the exact same way about guerrilla lol now i love it so much (im a rock/metal fan so i always end up loving these 😭)
I disliked the first half of Guerrilla’s chorus as well for the exact reason 😂 but like you said, the second half totally brings it all together.
Love your videos btw ❤
It's so nice to find that I'm not alone 😂
Thank you watching and I'm glad you enjoy!
Great vidéo!! I thought a lot about this recently. For me, personally, it depends on the song’s context. And it really comes down to personal taste
A lot of people have been unreceptive to Aespa’s chanting in Spicy. But considering the Bratz concept and their sassy demeanour in this era, I totally get it, and I like it. Same goes for Itzy’s ICY. The teen crush concept fits this vibe perfectly.
But there have been other songs where the chanting felt just too overwhelming for me. With all my respect to NCT 127, 2 Baddies is my main example. But then again, it comes to taste, and no matter the musical trend, I think there only good and bad examples of them.
I also love the bratty chants in spicy! Now I'm mad I forgot to put that in the post-chorus subversion section ugh
@@catchingteez no problem at all! I really appreciate your hard work for your vid! and that just shows how there are soooo many examples of chanted choruses in kpop lol
I have mixed feelings about most idols not actually singing together and not harmonizing in choruses. I've been a kpop fan for 15+ years, so it kinda throws me off if I compare current most popular songs to 2nd gen songs. But at the same time I do love most of the chant choruses, I love the instrumentals and the catchiness of it. I even got some song recs from your video :D Also, huh, it's the exact opposite for me for the Guerilla chorus. I'm jamming to the 1st half but the 2nd half makes me wince because I find Jongho's vocals too loud and overwhelming on top of the bone-rattling beats. So it's all extremely subjective.
nct's bsides make up for their title tracks.i do understand that people wont check out side tracks if they dont like their titles...but something inside me still wishes that people would 😭 their harmony in the chorus is AMAZING. its so beautiful. but its so hidden and people outside of nct's fandom have no idea. i still like their chant choruses actually. but my fav titles being superhuman and limitless maybe i dont like their chants as much. i also like their mix choruses? for example punch is kinda chanty but theres still a harmony in the second half. overall im a huge fan of sm's way of making their groups sing together in their choruses, so i prefer those choruses in the end. stream cool hot sweet love by red velvet for a phenomenal chorus
kep1er have a baaad case of misusing vocals in favor of chant choruses; we fresh was the biggest perpetrator of this. there are NINE vocalists in that group, and multiple of them didnt get more than adlibs and group vocals. its so beyond frustrating to watch as a fan who literally just. wants. to hear them. sing.
I thought I hated noise music, but then I watched some videos about it and apparently I love noise music. Me actually hating chant choruses makes so much sense now lol. The reverse like Dalla Dalla? Sure, I can work with that, but if I get to the chorus and get chants I'm out. I'm always so salty that Taeil's high note is buried so deep within Kick It.
At the same time, Bewitched is one of my favorite songs, maybe because the other parts are rich and the chorus is borderline antidrop and I'm addicted to those.
I saw this title and immediately clicked play.
I agree that chant choruses are overused and can make a song boring. It’s one reason I have a love hate relationship with some groups.
I did spend the whole video thinking-the chant choruses in Geurrilla worked. I too wasn’t sure about Geurrilla pre release teaser but actually like the song a lot.
I think chant choruses done badly are lazy but I also think the chant chorus popularity may be related to the dances. Choruses are often when the height of the dance moves are performed and I think groups opt for chants because it’s easier to do while dancing heavy choreo.
I also think it may be a “this formula worked so we are going to do it (or do it again)” but they don’t always repeat the success.
Wow your 2baddies’ experience is exactly the same as mine. And I also wrote somewhere that because of 2baddies’ reputation, the album (which, for me, was a contender for AOTY) didn’t get to shine among general K-pop listeners. And I completely agree with the regression of vocal skills of a trained vocalist in a rap-centric group. I can say the same for NCT 127. That group has nearly 5 good vocalists but they get very less lines in the title track so general listeners are usually very surprised when they see them do covers.
I am slowly catching up to your content and I love it. I mostly dislike chant choruses, but every now and then I hear something that makes me wanna scream that chorus like a maniac
ooo this was an interesting watch!! because while you totally make a lot of good points and i absolutely agree with some things you said, i still just love and adore those chanty choruses so much hahaha 😭😭 i think the sheer energy output you get from having a chorus like that is just soo much fun to listen to, sing/chant along with and i can imagine it must be a lot of fun to perform as well! (although it definitely helps if you like the general 4th gen rap heavy fun-bouncy-cool-energetic style songs like i do because i know that vibe isn't for everyone hahaha)
with the bar for what level of choreo groups are expected to pull off constantly being raised i guess companies probably see some extra value in having choruses where the artists can put more focus on dancing and not having to hit specific notes as well?
anyway here's a lil list some of my fave ✨chant songs✨ that never fail to get me excited:
cravity - boppin', get lifted, pow, jumper
p1harmony - black hole, do it like this, new classic, back down, scared
bae173 - dash, jaws
itzy - 24h, ting ting ting
nct 127 - skyscraper
drippin - trick and treat
onlyoneof - seoul drift
everglow - company
24k - super fly
atbo - attitude
When i ready the title of the video two songs came to mind. Part A of Maniac chorus by Stray Kids and Good Boy Gone Bad by TXT. Both are amazing songs except... I found the choruses very dull compared to the song. Gotta admit they're earworms for sure tho but I didn't feel like listening to them again and again.
Its probably a very unpopular opinion tho.
The Chant chorus followed by a Post Chorus subversion is one of my favourite way or using chant choruses too! Halazia by ATEEZ came to mind too and yess you mentioned it! The reverse subversion thing is something that I'd never thought about and I realised how much I love it. Almost every single example that you gave in that section is my favorite.
Now that you bring up TXT, Sugar Rush Ride would have fit in this video too. I loved that song until the second half of the chorus kicked in with the “sugar rush-ush” part.
@@catchingteez same. The prechorus of SRR is so pretty but the whispering part kinda makes it less enjoyable. Choruses really do make or break the song for me.
i love how different our tastes are haha
i agree with GBGB because the whole song generally fell flat (probably an overall issue with mixing that's been a little fixture of HYBE) and combining that with a chant chorus wasn't super great? with SRR i think the chanting part (to me) being intercut with the 'gimme gimme more' was really nice, and unlike GBGB the rest of the song was so dynamic and so pretty???; i think the chorus being a little bass heavy compared to the rest of the song (like kitsch and bite me) made a difference as well.
@@catchingteez my first thought when I heard the sugar rush ush part was "oh no" 💀
This is such a well-articulated analysis and I am SO sending this to everyone who argues about noise music. My fave part was about how the rock-adjacent songs fit so well with that genre - as someone who grew up on rock, metal, j-rock and visual kei I have a natural tendency to enjoy "loud" songs with very energetic singing and shouting, so I've always felt pretty good about chant choruses. A well done chant is enough to get me to like a song I would otherwise have considered mid.
Yet, I've found that many specific kpop songs just don't scratch that itch despite having similar structure, and I think I know why : there's something to be said about the emotion a chant is supposed to bring. Be it excitement, exaltation, anger, rage, it NEEDS to express something strong, and most importantly of all : it's a communal activity. You can scream alone, but you cannot chant alone. I feel like it's such a big part of why the chanting works so well when there are ad-libs and layered vocals : because you can hear the plurality of voices who are chanting and feeling alongside you.
A sub earned for this beautiful video -- and also because I was ready to throw hands when Ring my bell wasn't in the rock section, but was wonderfully showcased later on 😌
I think SKZ do a really good job handling chant choruses because they know how to make noise music well so they can bridge the gap.
I've always thought that SKZ choruses especially in their title tracks are what pull the song down and feel repetitive. I usually have to look past the choruses to enjoy their TTs. Exceptions are Thunderous and MIROH!
i do like a lot of chant chorus songs but in some ways its because they're easier for my brain to process. they work as good background noise thats just the right amount of catchy and fun that won't distract me from my work. like lesserafim's eve, psyche and bluebeards wife b side is basically an overgrown chant chorus, but that just makes it easy to digest. On the other hand i dont often listen to ateez music while i work bc their music demands to be listened to. Its like what youtube shorts is to longform video essays. Theres a deeper connection there about how kpop is the fast fashion of music but I'm not smart enough to do a whole essay on it, lol.
p.s. somniatinys represent!!!!! 🤝🤝
"kpop is the fast fashion of music" that's such a good line
I'm a "if it's done well" **Black Pink voice** Typ'a Girl~. And that feels like a cop out, I know, but for every twenty songs that has me cursing out this trend, there's five that makes my monkey hind brain go fucking nuts, like...
Don't play God's Menu, Aju Nice, Kick It, Savage, How You Like That (there are so many more examples, I just can't think of them right now) around me, and expect me to act like a normal, well adjusted member of society. Don't set yourself *and* me up for failure like that.
Chant choruses, in my opinion, fall into the realm of one or two groups doing them in a way that has everyone and their mother losing their mind, so a million others try to copy it. But ultimately what happens is that most of those copycats don't understand what elevated those early examples, so it falls flat. Chant choruses are up there with tropical pop and anti drops as the most hated trends in pop music when they're rly not that bad. We've just been inundated with so many flops that we forgot why we liked them in the first place.
Right? It's such a hit and miss thing, but despite being such a simple concept it's so hard to execute well
I absolutely love your videos and I can listen to you talk about ATEEZ's music and why it's soo cool for hours!
There are things in their music that I hear and absorb but can never quite express as well as you do!
As for chanty finale choruses, goddamn they're so Satisfying. Screaming the final chant chorus for Guerrilla feels like therapy haha.
Another banger of a video! Keep 'em coming!
Thank you so much! And if you like me talking about Ateez’s music, then you are going to LOVE my next video (spoiler alert 😉)
i feel like you plucked a bunch of vague thoughts i’ve had about chant choruses directly from my brain and made a cohesive video essay with them. basically, hard agree with almost everything you said
i also confess that even as an atiny i’m ambivalent about guerilla; I’m absolutely obsessed with hongjoong and mingi’s rap sections but i can’t stand the chorus. to me, chant choruses feel cheap, like you don’t trust your vocalists to carry a real chorus. for me, chant choruses done right tend to be as a post chorus after a real musical chorus. the preeminent example i can think of is 2NE1’s come back home; the chorus is musically pretty and the somewhat chanty post-chorus adds a little flavor that the song would otherwise be missing
but i don’t think it’s a coincidence that my ult group, exo, has never done anything resembling a chant chorus.
You have now become my fave Kpop ytber. Your videos are refreshing and inspiring. It motivates me to do things. Thank you
So how do we feel about the new video look? Also brownie points to anyone who can find every time I plug Bonvoyage in this video lol
Not to much to add to th video, loved it btw, but god can I agree w the part about 2 baddies and nct in general. I am not the biggest nct fan, I was rather a hater until last summer I listend to one of their bsides and dowloaded their whole discography and actually listend to it (summer w no wifi yk) and suddenly I saw the appeal of nct as a whole. Most of their title track rank very low for me but the b sides?? I fell in love. They stilll had the experimental vibe from their title track but their vocals were shining, there was nothing to hate. I still dont stan them.... but they are for sure my favoirte bg, including all of their subunits!! (Wayv has a special place in my heart)
on the subversion topic, i remember when the face the sun highlight medley dropped people were so disappointed that seventeen were going for an "empty" chant chorus with hot and then when the whole song dropped and the post chorus was much more complex (while still arguably a bit chanty there was way more melody) everyone suddenly loved the song. and maybe it speaks to my complete faith in woozi and bumzu but i kind of always knew a section like that was lurking around the corner when the first snippet dropped (they also do a similar thing in super!)
I definitely base my favorite songs on their choruses. That's should be the highlight of the song!! You've shown most of the groups I would name as having great beats but flat/repetitive choruses. It gives the impression they _couldn't_ write something fitting, or they prioritized the ability to go harder on the choreo, so singing won't be a struggle.
As someone with little knowledge on music I love your break down. With this video I now know why I dislike NCT songs too often then not.
Glad I was able to shed some light on this for you!
speaking of vocalists being limited to prechoruses, and instrumental changes, something that is very hit or miss for me is when pretty much the whole song is rap and then there's a really melodic prechorus with a totally different instrumental. it can feel very jarring. skz do this a lot (i am a stay ok i'm not hating), most of the time it works for them but with s-class i didn't get it.
I felt that with God's Menu so hard! Everyone was talking about how pretty the pre-chorus was but it threw me for an absolute loop the first 10 times I listened to it. I loved the song, but it took me a while to adjust
Ah... I just came back to this video and realized I missed something.. the "lock your trainees in a room and let them improve their dancing cost free" line. That actually IS how most agencies treat singing as well. Trainees might get a weekly vocal lesson (if they are lucky and are slated to be the main or lead vocalist in a group), and the rest is literally them just practicing singing on their own. So of course they will never really improve no matter how long of a training period they have. A weekly lesson at most barely teaches anything, and continuing to practice afterwards on your own without anyone there to call you on bad technique, you just further instill bad habits that need to be completely broken before they can even be trained correctly. I think we can all agree that it trainees were receiving vocal lessons one on one every day or even just 2 or 3 times a week, we wouldn't have people debuting with 2+ years as a trainee under their belt while still not being able to hit a note properly.
I clicked about to fight for EXO Mama to learn something new.
My reaction to Guerrilla’s chorus: (Wow! Mind blown!) I screamed with them! The pause (Plus "make a move…”"click”) before the chorus is genius!
to me its either really good or really bad there is no in between 😭
It's so funny because I was really in rock music specifically Sreamo Rock in middle school. So when people were talking about "Noise Music" in Kpop becoming overdone especially when came to RV and Stray Kids which I remember getting the most hate in the beginning but I was like what because it was so normal to me. Guerilla is my favorite track probably to Top 10 for me and it is because of the rock influence screamo.
As an atiny and insomnia I am very happy this month 😭😭😭 also I cannot listen to guerilla without screaming BREAK THE WALL in my head
your feelings about GUERILLA is my feelings for BONVOYAGE. I hated the song, I hated it so so much I stop like 15 seconds in. BUt then I was watching kpop tiktoks here on yt, and the chorus and the end have NOT left my mind ever since
My friend just sent me your channel and oh my gosh. I adored this video and cannot wait to binge everything else you've made. I've been experiencing good kpop video essay withdraws with chaebin-n-out and mera not posting and you are overflowing through the gap that's left. Incredible humor and excellent analysis, excited to watch more!!!!!
That is so sweet of you! Thank you ❤️
Hello from a former All-Stater :) and fellow Atiny. I share many of your takes on Ateez and Kpop in general, and I enjoy hearing your well thought out points and opinions.
18:31 and this made me laugh out loud
nct vocalists were prioritized in limitless and then were ultimately forgotten about by SM
I just love those types of videos especially it they are longer
Thank you so much for this video, I found it really helpful and informative! As a total music amateur, I never had the language to describe my feelings about this concept- I'd tell my friends, "Yeah I'm not super into NCT releases cuz of the- the gang vocals where they kinda shout non-melodically. No likey." Now I know there's proper terminology for it and you helped me figure out the reasons why it doesn't super appeal to me. At the same time you clearly explained different varieties with examples that showed me there are many songs like this I actually adore but didn't recognize as chant choruses! I feel like I learned a lot and that this half-hour flew by. I look forward to more analyses like this; thank you for your hard work and contributions to the kpop fan community :) (also fellow somniatiny here lol)
this is kind of why i stopped listening to blackpink around 2018, i felt like the songs became lazy and repetitive with their chant choruses since the company knows their fans will eat anything up and i just lost interest. i still keep up with the girls but i just lost interest in their music and found other artist to stan in between blackpinks long hiatus.
I am one of those who loved gorilla in the first listen but it might be because I came to kpop after having linkin park , creed , evanescence as part of my playlist for years along with other bands so ateez song i was wanting more rock element
It was the screamo in the dance break that won me over in the end
I really liked the first half of the guerilla chorus a lot because it makes so much sense within their lore
like they're singing about their resolutions of the revolution they're leading, so it just makes sense to me that they're chanting it
and then jongho comes in and that feels like so emotional? and like as you said without the chanting the second half would be way less impactful, so i'm glad the chorus is built like that.
I feel like a lot of stuff which I usually wouldn't be the biggest fan of just works well within the context of their lore.
For example in Sector 1 the second half of the chorus would usually be a turn off for me but the impact it has because of the meaning behind the song? so crazy. like i makes me feel like the break the wall part in guerilla does like the chanting makes their music so immersive that i can like easily and so vividly envision this revolution whenever i hear those songs.
I also just love ateez and the direction their music is taking so I could praise anything they do musically because i am very heart eyes for their music if you get what i mean ahsjdj
this got longer than i planned also i'm sorry if some things don't make sense english isnt my first language and talking about ateez gets me all excited ashdjf
I'm a Wiz*one and I never thought of Fiesta as noise music
It's my personal hot take that Iz*one made what most people would consider noise music. It's just that no one thinks to call it that because it's "cuter-sounding" than the usual intense and gritty stuff
Sounds more kinda like house or dance.
great analysis as always.
I saw this in my recommended and wow- I'm going to have to check out more of your videos now! I agree with a lot of this, and my biggest beef with chant-style choruses is when the chorus feels empty, whether the singers aren't able to carry them or the instrumental is lacking. A good example for me is Guerilla, and Pink Venom is where a chant chorus falls flat for me, because there's just not enough in the chorus.
chant choruses can be hit or miss for me even though i'm a "noise music" skeptic. i rant about the oversaturation of (bad) chant choruses in kpop all the time and also what i simply call "boy group shouting" in general. i'm a queer woman i really don't want men to shout in my ear all the time!
i think that it's fair and logical that kpop has become more performance and visual focused given its developments and the pandemic in general but i implore the labels to remember that people like me mostly consume this music without the visuals: i'm not always in front of a screen watching performances or watching the music videos, most of the time i'm just listening to the song itself! visual elements like choreo and mvs etc. are great but at the end of the day i need the music that's being put out to be listenable even without flashy dance moves and stunning videography.
also, this is unrelated, but I do hope you make a video for A.C.E, like when they are all back from the army. The children needs to be educated, and the group needs the promo. like ACE is so nugu, its existence is practically an urban legend at this point.
I can't think of anything I would do a full video on for them, but I try to keep smaller groups like them in mind when coming up with examples or choosing fancams. I'll agree that they're criminally underappreciated
@@catchingteez
Agreeeeeed
@@catchingteez there's many things you can do.
Struggles of small company despite good music
Niche music genre (they did extreme hardcore at start)
Changing concepts and genre for almost every comeback.
Just extremely good vical style in general.
Struggles of getting a first win 🥹.
But it seems you are very unfamiliar with them, so I understand not making a video on them. We are very used to them being underrated.
The question-mark-pong during the Guerilla section is S-tier editing 👌
i love onf and was not expecting you to bring up goosebumps lol. oh also btw it's pronounced on n off lmfao
Boy group names are so hard to get right these days 😭 (I complain as a boy group stan)
But Goosebumps deserves so much better tbh. If NCT released that song people would have been all over it
I feel like chant choruses are kind of like the beat drop/pure instrumental choruses, people started complaining about them at some point but they fade away wayyy later because they still sell as if it's a wave that needs to hit the shore and can't be stopped earlier than it would naturally. (unfortunately the usual case of things fading out of the industry rather than actually getting improved on) The difference between the two "chorus types" is probably that the beat drop chorus came before the chant chorus and people liked/tolerate(d) it for so long cuz they were just glad we had some crumbs of lyrics.
this is the kind of discussions I can get behind
i have nothing else to say because yes
i agree bc so many songs get WRECKED by bad choruses
if i can't listen to the chorus i can't listen to the song imo
Great video, but I'm kind of surprised you left out the crown prince of "relies on its instrumental for an effective chorus and is overhated because of it", Side Effects... talk about a song that got shafted because people just didn't hear the genius of it.
Also on the subject of Guerilla, I honestly feel like even without the double time part, the chorus works solely because of how radically dissonant it is for a chorus? Like it makes you so viscerally uncomfortable because of how aggressively out of place the chords are. I cant think of a chorus that throws you further out of your comfort zone than Guerilla. Its freakin genius lmao
wow that outro was bomb! what song is it from?? (not to take away from this very insightful video! very articulate and not too long at all, i am newly subscribed!) 😁
Ateez outro Liberty. If you want the full song then check out New World.
So basically I love Chant music and noise music, good to know
every time dreamcatcher was mentioned i GRINNED. bonvoyage !!
this opinion is so interesting and wild to me. I think I have the complete opposite opinion. I LIVE for chant choruses. 2 baddies is my jam, guerilla's chant is my jam, icky is MY JAM. I never knew there were so many people that don't like these types of choruses. It feels like a personal attack lol. I am certainly a chant chorus fanatic.
mmh now I'm interested in hearing your opinion on Unforgiven by Lesserafim, cause i think that song has a horrible chant chorus that feels flat and kills the whole momentum , it ruined the song for me honestly, and i was surprised it wasn't included here
All I want is a playlist with all these songs 😂
omg thank u this is why i can’t listen to most bg music cause the chant choruses are so difficult to listen to 😭 like it makes me uncomfortable lol & paired with the fact that half of the time if they have english lyrics theyre written horribly…yeah turn it off
your taste is immaculate girlll
Ok after watching this entire video, I'm fully convinced that you just picked any random topic to talk about, just so you could play Bon Voyage in all it's glory throughout the video and hypnotise people into stanning Dreamcather and I'm not mad at you!! Haha but seriously really great and interesting video! and being an ATEEZ stan with a love/hate relationship with chant choruses is truly humanity's greatest test 🥲
I'm not opposed to a chant chorus because just like you said, chanting = unga bunga no thoughts just excitement. PLUS I am literally an NCT 127 Ult so noise music is my bread and butter. That being said I literally feel like there are two types of noise music in kpop - SKZ sounding noise and NCT sounding noise. Case in point I am yet to meet a person who is a stan of both groups at the same time, I dislike most skz music, and my stay friends dislike most nct music. If you're not getting what I'm trying to say, imagine nct's agressive slamming on pots and pans sound in a skz song. Correct me if I'm wrong but most of the skz songs I've heard don't have that same kind of pot and pan clashing.
ALSO, I hated Guerilla at first. For like...a good few months. Jongho's rythamtic screaming sounded so random and out of place to me and that's crazy because I like rock music and I'm not against metal music. And yetttttt Guerilla picked my last nerve. I appreciate it now, but it's still probably my least favourite tt from ateez. Halazia supremacy because Eden-ary really perfected what they were trying to get across.
I think the NCT vs Stray Kids noise fans could also be because NCT is suuuuuper experimental most of the time. They rely on really out there instrumentals, whereas Stray Kids will still experiment but generally stick to their genre.
And I would also consider Guerilla their worst if it weren't for the 🔥 rap sections AND the fact that they snuck some screamo in there. I have to give them respect for having the balls to throw screamo into the kpop ring (because I really wish more groups would experiment with it)
I love both SKZ and NCT music😭😭😭😭😭
I just discovered this video, and I am more of a casual listener to kpop (but an ARMY) and I will say I agree with a lot that was said. I also will add it isn't just chorus but when it is a dance break that uses chants it can ruin the songs as well. I think personally, I very much don't like the chanting choruses that pretty much have zero singing (however it depends on the song but majority of the time I don't like it). The most recent example for me is Bite Me by Enhypen. I LOVED everything about the song except the chorus because of the awful chanting. If it wasn't for the chorus, it would be on my playlist. I will also agree with 2 Baddies by NCT and many others...
When it sometimes works: I haven't heard most of these songs I will be honest but the ones that I heard the small parts you played I liked: Zimalabim by Red Velvet and Venom by BVNDT (maybe Scream by Dreamcatcher).
Post-Chorus: I personally have mixed feelings about these. If there isn't a big chanting part in the song but they do have one in the post chorus, I think it can also make and break and song just as much if there is a chant in the chorus. Also, if there is a chant in the chorus but I loved the post chorus I most likely won't put it onto my playlist still because I want to like the song from A to Z, beginning to end.
Side Note: ..just some food for thought...I highly recommend people (not all just some) learn to differentiate groups/artists/solo artists under Hybe differently than just saying Hybe because each subsidiary runs differently. I think people get confused how Hybe is run compared other kpop companies. You can't label everything about Hybe based on a what a subsidiary or some subsidiaries (or a group or few groups under different Hybe) because they are all run differently based on how the subsidiaries under Hybe want to run. All Hybe does is oversee (but they don't touch unless necessary) and to give each subsidiary money/budget...For example, BTS and TXT are under Bighit subsidiary, and they run differently than other subsidiaries under Hybe. Another example would be Scooter Braun which has artists like Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande is now under Hybe making them now a subsidiary, but they still run differently than other subsidiaries.... Anyways all I am trying to say is be cautious when you generalize Hybe because each subsidiary is run in their own way and differently. I do understand though if one is forming an opinion though on majority of what one hears from most kpop groups under hybe, but one still need to be cautions, especially when trying to place blame on something on the wrong place. So basically, think of Be:lift, Adara, Bighit, etc. instead of generalizing under the blanket, Hybe, so to speak. Hopefully this makes sense. This isn't hate to anyone. Also, I want to be clear I am not a company stan just want to people to understand better where to place blame or in just in general...
oh the SECOND goosebumps was mentioned i slapped the sub button. fuses rise up
25:10 Pirate is so good, CLC too (25:25)! Everglow needs to have a comeback and I really miss CLC 🥺
With how much you used love me like this as clips to play in the background, I’m surprised it wasn’t an example for highlighting adlibs. I mean if you’ve seen the stage practice for love me like this, you can’t tell me the adlibs during the 2nd and 3rd chorus don’t stand out in the best way possible (imo)
Also I feel like another example of highlighting adlibs during the chorus could be maniac
Wow... I really managed to miss that somehow 🤡
When it comes to adlibs, theyre everywhere, but usually theyre found in groups that do pop-y songs but have a strong vocalist. Probably every single Twice title track has them, VIXX, probably some NCT songs and Mamamoo (Mr. Ambiguous, their debut song, has all three of the vocalists do ad libs and its a beautiful song I love it)
11:40 i was the exact same way. I sang all through grade school in various programs, but once I went to college there was zero singing for me. I think about it a lot, but life is lifing rn, so haven’t gotten around to singing again.
12:00 it’s true though I think people don’t realize that your voice IS an instrument. And like an instrument it needs to be used to keep it working and also taken care of to make sure it doesn’t break. I’m by no means a singer, but I did musical theater in high school. I’ve always loved to sing even if I’m not great at it. I’ve always thought I have a bad voice but I’ve had many musically talented friends tell me I have a decent voice I just need to learn to use it right. In high school, in musical theater I used it all the time and while it wasn’t GREAT, I was frequently practicing and stretching the muscles which kept my voice in decent shape. Then I went to college and switched to straight plays and stopped consistently singing. I still do on occasion, when I go to church on sundays, or when I’m backstage helping my alma mater drama club, we always need extra voices so they have us singing backstage to add onto it (I’m a makeup artist so I’m backstage to touch up makeup all the time).
But I don’t use it as frequently as I used to, on top of the fact in early 2020 I ended up in the hospital with a bad case of pneumonia that I almost died from (I’m not just saying that my doctor told me I was in a very bad state and could have died if I had waited any longer to come see her). Due to the pneumonia my lungs took a significant hit I’ve still not fully recovered from, so that’s also weakened my voice. Ik if I spent more time practicing I’d improve and get my breath control/lung capacity back but I’m unfortunately not in a place where I have frequent opportunities anymore.
the finallll chorus when i went to the loona concert ptt and hi high were the most hyped because of the chanting in the end
i actually didn't know what a 'chant' chorus was until this video. so a non-singing chorus ok got it. never experienced it i don't think