Octopus Electric Vehicles' Powerloop Vehicle-to-Grid | Fully Charged PLUS
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- čas přidán 14. 12. 2020
- We were delighted to talk to Octopus Electric Vehicles about Powerloop (V2G)
For more information, visit: www.octopusev.com and octopusev.info/workshops
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#CleanEnergy #ElectricCars #ElectricVehicles #Batteries #Wind #Solar #RenewableEnergy #SustainableEnergy #ElectricBikes #ElectricTransport #EnergyStorage #RenewableHeat - Věda a technologie
Strange that the actual bi-directional charger used wasn't mentioned here. Its the Wallbox Quasar.
BTW, loving this "classic" fully charged video style. Just Robert and someone knowledgeable getting into the nitty gritty.
Same here.
Me too! 😀
Fully Charged Plus is amped up (no pun intended) content for the next decade of change. Loving it!
This will be huge when CCS becomes V2G.
Absolutely Alan, the idea is that this proves the concept and helps manufacturers see the data is there
Agreed. Bring it on.
Still a few years out, until then get a British built Leaf to support the grid and save a few quid.
@@douglasalanthompson Looking to the future it'll have to be a 2nd hand one to be built in Britain:
www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2020/12/11/nissan-source-warns-there-is-no-plan-b-in-case-of-no-deal/
www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/brexit/
The LEAF is the last EV. I would recommend- because of the battery charging issue.
I really like the idea of local time shifting of loads. Never really been a fan of V2G overall, but in coodination with some smart tech in the home to coordinate energy use with the grid it makes a lot of sense to use your own vehicle as a temporary house battery to offset grid usage, then recharge the vehicle later at night when demand is lower and prices cheaper.
hey Smidge, absolutely! We agree, in the right way, and making it easier for the customer it will be the best way to work it.
I can't wait for this to come to Type 2 / CCS. Having the potential of 10+ kwh of battery storage 'parked on the drive' would totally fit our usage model! refill overnight from cheap wind power, power our house for the day (when we are in anyway). We'd barely pull anything from the grid between 7am-11pm assuming the car could feed our peak load times. It's the dream!
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.
This has to be the future. It makes so much sense! Bring it up to Yorkshire!
Hey Nick, it is to do with the partners and the Distribution Network Operator, if our data is good, it should help roll out similar things in the future
I agree Nick this needs rolling out to other areas.
@@Snodgros we agree too, this is what this trail is going to prove that it can be rolled out to other areas
They have electricity in Yorkshire now?
Brilliant. Bring it on!
Great video
This is such a good idea - well done :)
Robert, I would be very glad to see you in Turin, with the new infrastructure of 64 500e parked with working V2G, all connected before delivery to customers and balancing the grid. With CCS!
Another really useful prog. Thanks. I am awaiting my Swytch e-bike conversion to be delivered shortly after seeing your prog on that last year. This will be another element I will have on my tick-list when our existing diesel cars get to replacement age and we move to an electric car. Please update us as other manufacturers take on the feed-out technology. I bet the Chinese are on to this in a big way already. Splendid.
One of the main reasons I bought my Leaf, was for V2G!
Yes it is one of the things to consider, however you can't apply to a trial without having one first and then you may not get in. After the trial you can buy the charger for few hundred and fees back should make it about zero or plus to you. The headline figure to buy outside a trial is £5,000 , which may come down if it is rolled out but would that be CCS by then, would need government funding to make it worthwhile.
@@chrisbailey1966 So go Zappi and V2H with dynamic load balancing - add in Agile and its available today :)
@@worcesterrenewables6946 pretty sure zappi doesn't support v2h, would love to be wrong though! If you have a set up for V2H in the UK any links you have for further info would be gratefully accepted
A great idea. Long time before it reaches Scotland. My Leaf and Zappi is a start!,,
Have a look at Zappi's Dynamic Load Balancing Model V2H with Agile is a better solution :)
A very interesting video showcasing a great initiative by Octopus Energy. Shame it only works with the Nissan Leaf for now but I think the idea has got a lot of potential so hopefully other EV manufacturers will look to enable their vehicles to work this way.
The limitation is in the standards. The Leaf's CHAdeMO DC port was designed from the ground up for V2G, but the CCS port used by other EVs is, by comparison, cobbling things together as they go. The consortium that manages CCS says that the standard will support V2G by 2025, but engineers are less than a year away from finalising the communications protocol (ISO 15118) and automakers like VW/Porsche and Fiat (and Wallbox, who made the charger in the video) are already experimenting with non-standardised CCS V2G solutions, so that they can be ready when the standards are finalised.
What I'm really excited about is AC bidirectional charging. Renault have been experimenting with converting DC to AC using the car's on-board charger, tweaked so that it can run bidirectionally, and have been working with a city in the Netherlands to roll out bidirectional AC chargers. They're still stuck with the same standards/communication problem as CCS, but they'll be using the same standards when they're finalised, so hopefully both bidirectional DC CCS and AC will break through quickly, as soon as things are firmed up. DC bidirectional systems are better-known and better-studied (I mean, Nissan's been building and using them for almost a decade now), but the DC bidirectional chargers themselves are expensive (well over £1000, probably closer to £2000). AC bidirectional systems will be cheaper overall (you really just need to swap a few diodes in the car for transistors, then get the control right), but they're less well-known and well-studied, so Renault will hopefully have them out by 2030, but the other automakers will be playing catch-up.
That was probably too much information, but thank you for indulging my enthusiasm. V2G is an exciting technology!
@@gigabyte2248 Thanks for your comprehensive reply and explanation. I lack your detailed knowledge but I'm delighted to help you indulge your enthusiasm! 👍😀
I appreciate you taking the time to reply and it's good to know that major auto manufacturers are already quite well advanced with their developments of this exciting new technology.
Other energy suppliers have been doing it for a while, so shop around for your energy like you should be doing anyway :)
Gutted this isnt available in my area, I'd jump at the chance to take part.
I'd love to take part in this, but unfortunately I'm a few miles outside the UKPN area :(
i love this idea. its not a new idea but this seems to be the first commensal set up. :)
Fully charged, a video on the challenges, both technical and policy, to making this set up be readily available on the market would really help a lot of people here. Happy to talk about suggestions and ideas if you want to make contact.
It’s clearly the missing piece of the puzzle.
Maybe if you want a little trip away to cornwall in the new year I could show you around a set up doing just this.
Want one, please Octopus, - but here in Somerset, one day !
Cool, sadly I'm not in the area to try it
This is a great idea and i'd up for allowing my vehicle to be part of the pool of available energy, .my only concern would be the impact on the overall battery health considering batteries may last only 10 years id be giving up the longevity of the battery. Hopefully it all balances out.
First of these with a good company presenter - you can see why octopus are doing well
Imagine the uses for this type of technology in the Azores once electric ships become a reality. Having entire port cities filled with EVs with that capability is great for balancing the grid in instances like this.
Awesome . . Someone has found a use for a Leaf :-)
This could be the deciding factor in my choice of my next electric car, because I want this function when I retire, I know my pension is going to result in a big drop in my income. This would help immensely! BUT under these terms and conditions its not an option me. i.e. you have to lease the car, I have never leased and will never do so, not so importent to me is; you have to plud in 6pm to 5am to get the £30 pay back! Ho and you have to live in the southeast of the UK.
Brilliant, especially for those of us with solar panels, pity it’s just Nissan doing this as I’ve a E Nero and a Powerwall. Wouldn’t need the Powerwall if I had this setup.
This relies on time of use tariffs for both export and import. My understanding of the smart meter technology is that support for tou export tariffs is extremely limited, if available at all.
This is only a partial solution - Rather than Vehicle to Grid, Vehicle to Home makes far more sense. look at the whole house demand cycle and use the car to balance the home FIRST. Take only the amount of energy out of the car that the house typically uses at that time, and then based on the individual household pattern of use, IF there is spare energy, then feed that to the grid at a managed rate to ensure sufficient 'emergency power' for the car's use. (Dynamic Load Balancing - its not that difficult to do)
Thanks so much for sharing information about this project! I'm only interested in V2H since there is no chance that my local utility would set up a V2G program that would be financially advantageous to me. I'm going to follow up on the Wallbox Quasar in the hope that it might be usable in the USA in grid-down situations & would allow my PV array to continue to output. Thanks to the previous poster who shared the name of bi-directional charger. Also, I'd really like to see a program on what options exist for low-cost systems that would allow V2H that would keep my PV array working in a grid-down situation. Electricity costs where I live make a battery backup system not a good idea financially.
Here in the UK, a standard PV installation shuts down if there's no power in the grid.
It's a safety issue. The grid engineers repairing a fault have to be confident that there is NO power in the grid while affecting repairs. They can't afford to have individual houses exporting into the grid while they're trying to fix it.
How about the life of the car battery? This system introduces more charge-discharge cicles, which will decrease battery life. This was not mentioned in the video. The question is how affected is the battery life, with how much time is the battery life decreased?
The literally talk about this
You know I had largely written off Li-on for "grid level" storage, but if this sort of thing takes off, we eventually wouldn't need "grid level" storage. It wouldn't just be suburban garages, but also eventually urban parking garage's with hundreds of cars. Oh, not to mention depots full of EV delivery trucks.
I'm no expert, but isn't lithium ion the one and only system currently being used for large scale battery grid storage......?!
@@andymccabe6712 it's being used for load balancing, but not really large scale storage. The hornsdale battery farm in Australia is something like 150 megawatts, whereas pumped hydro storage facilities are often measured in gigawatts. There are no other modern technologies that currently compete with that, but I think the consensus is that there are other storage technologies (flow batteries, various gravity based schemes) that will mature into viable alternatives that will beat Li-on on a cost per megawatt basis, but will only be suitable for stationary applications. However if the various players can get their act together on this type of two way charging for EVs, it could really change the game and render large scale storage facilities obsolete. Time will tell!
Will one be able to retrofit some kind of conversion that will allow v2g on CCS in the future or will it mean replacing the car to avail of this tech. I for one would be interested in a conversion on my E Niro
This is the reason I would move from my beloved Tesla if they don't offer it - Cannot justify the cost of a Powerwall for what it would save when there's an EV on the drive......
I would put money on the 4680 cells next year and there new platforms for the 3 and Y form the German plant will have V2G options as std. as well as cybertruck and the plad model S etc in America!
I don't understand why Elon Musk has said that Teslas won't incorporate bidirectional charging. Not happy with your decision Elon.
@@mspalmboy One day you may be able to specify a Tesla with V2G. Probably an LFP battery chemistry that supports many more cycles, but a smaller range.
Has anyone anywhere EVER got a Powerwall to pay for itself.......?!
The first roadsters had v2x capability. Elon and drew both covered that at the battery day event. They went away from it. Because nobody used it then. Also they mentioned reenabling it in future model's. So we'll see.
But I'd venture to say. Given thst lucid will have v2x with the dream wonder box.
As well as hyundai offering v2x with the upcoming ioniq 5 cuv. That tesla will not be upstaged there either.
How much would you get after the trial? Yes you have checked it's not voiding the battery but the charging cycles will be 'used up' so the battery will get used a lot faster, does the economics pay for, say halving the life of your battery?
So the Ioniq 5/EV6 V2L function is not usable in this case?
I would like to take part but it’s a pity VW don’t have the software & hardware. Hope they are working on it.
Ok it’s the future… but by when will I be able to use the MG 4 as a battery bank both for home and V2G …. Not having to lease car and do it when I like not just 12 sessions
Wonder if this would work to convert DC to AC for solar panel too , this will offset the need for a separate inverter for solar panels
There is a Canadian company doing just that, dcbel.ossiaco.com/
@@jdlutz1965 Thanks for sharing!Does that converter also make a good integration with heat pumps and home battery storage?
All Electric houses is the way!
Have to lease a vehicle to be part of the trial...
When are leases for 2nd hand and other older cars going to be a thing?
Is this going to be compatible with CCS anytime soon?
Really surprised Tesla haven't got in on this especially with their experience with solar panels and grid tie batteries, they would make it very user friendly and implement it very well
Love the idea but until they sort out a decent tariff that just makes sense.
Import from the grid at 15p or so then export it at what....3 - 5p kwh. So they can then charge other at 15-20p pkwh
V2G would be a no brainer for me in the future as and when I get an EV - combined with PV, charging the car during the day from free solar and then using the relatively massive battery to power the house would be perfect. Shame Chademo is only being used by Nissan at the moment. I am in the UKPN area but not quite ready to bite the bullet and rent a Leaf - happen to be on Octopus too ;)
Claire, as Director of T & I please avoid mixing power (kW) and energy (kWh) when describing the input/outputs - sounds pedantic but it's relevant here - at 7kW max output the Leaf battery of 40kWh would provide 4 hours of power to the grid/house (with 70% max drain of 28kWh) ...if I changed sector from telecoms I'd love to work in this area ;)
When is this coming on the market octopus?
The presented (female one) said the system takes 7kw out of the car battery. Did she mean 7KwHrs. or is system taking energy out of the battery at a rate of 7kw until the battery reaches the 30% level
I did apply for this but you can only lease the 40Kwh Leaf which just doesn't have enough range for me. If I could have had the 64kWh I would have signed up for this.
watch this space, we might have some extra testing in future.
Nice Video thanks, V2G is the way to go, but i fear car manufacturers dont like it that much.
We hope the data from this will swing them the other way.
I think its only Musk that has a beef about it and because Musk said it many repeat his words. Lucid will have it built in, i think read that Audi and Honda are both working on it
@@rtfazeberdee3519 Probably because Tesla would like to sell you the batteries twice - once in the car and once in the Powerwall?
@@GreenJimll No, Tesla assumes that the self drivig car will be achieved soon. Therefore almost nobody will own a car anymore but will use robo taxis instead. Robo taxis will not sit in the drive way but will drive almost all the time, so V2G doesn't make much sense.
@@GreenJimll More than likely. Lucid do stationary batteries as well.
Is it compatible with a Solar PV installation?
getting my Nissan Leaf in January. cannot wait for this to come to Staffordshire. I was looking at investing 7K on the tesla power wall, but will now wait for this to power my house. Also moved my energy supplier from eon to Octopus specifically for innovations like this.
Tbh, i wouldn’t if i could give you any advice. There have been some studies on battery degredation and v2g. Seems like your batterh will degrade allot faster. I have a nissan leaf myself, and i am not going to do this.
Remy, "There have been some studies..."; links please, so that we can make a our own judgements.
There is a trail just not this one try looking at Western Power Distribution and search V2G
I really want to get a new car with this capability but seems we still cannot use V2G capabilites. At least there are more cars with this capability but the grid/government and energy companies seem to be holding this back (something odd going on there, Octopus are one of the few who seem to be pushing this forward and disrupting the market, good on them). This is really frustrating, I note your comments was 2 years ago, are you still waiting?
@@adamhardy8690 Hi, still waiting. I ended up getting the power wall 2 given the huge increase in electric costs. I believe enphase have a new home charger which does allow V2G, but it is not released yet and I could not find any specs online. From other CZcamsrs that have done V2G they had 3 phase electric supplies and my house only has single phase. no details from enphase as to whether their solution is single or 3 phase, so will sit and wait further. my Nissan leaf coming to an end of lease, and so looking at another electric vehicle. Still keen to get V2G working as I think it is the future, it's just painfully slow in coming.
Heard the other week that new building regs will increase household to 100 amp fuses. so all new and refurbished houses.
Is that not currently the standard anyway? We live in quite a small house but still have a 100A main fuse (2017 build)
@@BiW1nning In a County wide climate change forum 2 weeks ago when discussing home BEV charging apparantly not yet. Nice to know some are built to that standard though.
@@timregester1173 Guess I was lucky then! Good news that the rest of the country will be in line soon.
Mine was 60A. 1967 Build. UK Power Networks came and upgraded to 100 A for free. Interesting they do this while the system is live - wear special boots and so on.
Most fuses are 60A. But the label on the carrier is normally 100A. Very few are labelled correctly.
I'd really like to see a Vehicle to Everything feature in the future. I'm not as interested as using my car to help a national power grid as I am helping me in the days after a disaster, camping, remote power, etc. These cars store immense power capacity and "currently", we can't even run a hair dryer from it.
'cos disasters are a CONSTANT worry for me too.....
Fantastic, this will help reduce the need for fossil fuel to be used to off set the peeks and troughs
What really excites me is if and when they allow powerloop to be used with a variable tariff. Between this and a domestic battery, you could effectively avoid using any electricity off the grid during the peak hours.
something like this is where we would like to go, but for data gathering it would be unfair to tell the customer when to plug in, and then leave them exposed to possible higher energy pricing. We are excited about what the future could hold though!
We can't wait for that day either, but we need people to join to have the data to then build the business case to let customers access it. Chicken and Egg
I'd like something I could plug into the Chademo to provide power for electric tools when working in the field. I believe such devices are available in Japan, but I'm not aware of anything in the UK. It would be far quieter and greener than using a portable generator.
I believe the Ford Transit (EV) has a power off take - not sure if available in the UK.
The Hyundai Ionic 5 has this capability.
This sounds a great idea on paper but surely this will reduce the life expectancy of the battery, doubling (or more) the number of charge / discharge cycles, if you do this on a daily basis.
On a technical note, if a fault occurs on the power network &:the DNO has to isolate an area to work on it, there could still be many of these inverters feeding power back Into the grid.
They have an isolator built in to turn off if the mains drops, just like with Solar PV set up to export.
I’d love to see an update when the data is summarized. Some metrics that would be interesting to see would be 1. Percent of battery degradation after the trial and the projected percentage loss over a five year period. 2. Projections on the impact to the grid operators. If 50% (or x%) of all EV were in the program, how much of the peak could be covered? What if different vehicles like Tesla who have larger batteries could be used to extract even more KWH? I could see other vehicles significantly increasing the amount of KWHs eliminated from the grid. ( I know they can’t now but the data would apply.
Also how much is it to buy and instal the charger? I think some consumers would prefer a different business model where they own the charger?
❤👍
I really don't understand why this isn't just a standard with electric cars. Big battery not being used seems to make a perfect tool to help balance the grid load
If you lose grid power to the house, can the car battery act like a backup generator supply?
I think you need a 3 phase supply and a more complicated set up. Otherwise you still have a live connection to the grid and the grid might not want it
Looks great but the North/South divide thing is getting extremely irritating.
Hey Jonathan, totally understand your frustration, partnering with one Distribution Network Operator has allowed us to see what issues there might be in rolling this out to multiple and we look forward to presenting this data to help drive the change to help this!
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465 Thanks for the reply. I understand, just desperate to get some of this innovation moving up here.
Does anyone know what cable (and is it a single cable) runs between the external car charger wall box and the components that are internal?
Hey James, good question, could you elaborate a little more? It is only one cable that runs from the wallbox to the car, but there are a few cables that we upgrade internally. Would you like to join a workshop to learn more?
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465 thanks. I had some renovation done and in anticipation ran a standard 32 amp cable between the fuseboard and where I may site a charger in the future. However, not sure if this would be sufficient?
Just had a chat with them, to confirm, any power they take as part of VTG, they recharge overnight for free!
I've ordered :)
Congratulations James, wonderful news, just to confirm, we will recharge you to the state of charge you arrived with for free, helps keep the whole system flowing!
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465 please advertise this, i didnt see it on your website and almost didnt proceed because I understood I would be out of pocket :(
@@jameshughesdon5370 err, if you were out of pocket, wouldn't the whole entire concept of the system be completely pointless - as NOBODY would use it......?!
@@andymccabe6712 you never know, hence why I always do the maths
Hmm. A bit like the OVO V2G scheme I signed up to, EIGHTEEN MONTHS AGO, then? As others have commented, that scheme was VERY bumpy in the early days, but my own system has settled down, now.
"Free" or otherwise sponsored cost trial like the one I am on (and probably this Octopus one) are potentially ( Ooh! joke) viable, but the upfront cost of these bidirectional chargers is always going to be somewhat higher than a one-way charger. So the real-world economies remain up for debate, by my own calculations (I have the data!)
Also, BE AWARE that the "round trip efficiency" of the whole AC>DC>Battery>DC>AC process is only between 80-85%. This is easily verifiable (I have done this). So for every 20kW you take from the grid, only 16-17kW makes it back.
I have no concerns about battery degradation, if anything, quite the opposite. Batteries are damaged by many things, including deep depth of discharge, or being maintained at 100% for hours, days on end. These smarter chargers are all capable of avoiding these extreme charge states. Cycling a battery between 30-80% has a miniscule effect on battery aging. Reputable reports (Including University of Warwick) are out there, covering this.
And currently (ooh I done another joke) NONE of these systems power your house in the event of mains failure. If the incoming mains goes down, V2G units shut down as a precaution, by design. Yes, they "kinda" power your house while the power is up, in that the car drives your house load, exporting any spare power to the grid (as long as it is up).
Thought I was onto something, last month had a 100amp fuse and new cable fitted to my house, have had a solar system on the roof making lots of money from that as I'm on about 53p a unit, want to do V2G but can't. I'm already a Octopus customer but I already have a one year old Nissan Leaf, so I don't want to lease one thank you.
Doesn't the extra cost of leasing a car offset any saving you might make on energy - or am I missing something.......??!
@Robert Blood I agree with you. I've been Octopus Agile and Octopus Outgoing (exporting) tariffs for more than a year using my home 15 kW battery storage system. Recently bought a Nissan Leaf - with a 62 kW battery and @Octopus Energy changed my upgraded my cables and my smart meter from SMET1 to SMET2. I'm in the area for UK Power Networks my DNO and they have just upgraded to a 100amp fuse. So I'm ready to go. to help balance the Grid with renewable energy. But, the limiting conditions of @Octopus Electric Vehicles Powerloop Trial are not right for me. I have already made the significant investment so don't need to lease a car. But, I don't seem to be able to get a bidirectional Charger without being on a trial. And the question is when they become available will they be a reasonal price. Perhaps Octopus Energy can come up with a leasing scheme for a suitable bidirectional charger - which can be paid back from the Octopus Bill /credit? Could also be a good marketing opportunity fot Nissan to sell more Leafs.
When are Octopus going to be Australia. #Enova are ready for you. Enova is a community energy, based in North Coast NSW AU.
Won't the greater number of cycle counts reduce the lifespan of the battery or do EV batteries work differently from the batteries in electronic products?
I think it Will be great to simply have a vehicle to grid which uses your electric car just like tesla power wall and once the car hits 50% charged or a set amount it sells the rest of your solar to the grid. I understand they want to use the battery to power the grid up and down but I think it's smarter to export only during the day after the car hits it's threshold % from being used all night.
I pproduce 58kwh of solar per day. 51kw a day is sold to the grid and use 7 in the say day. I also buy14kwh more from the grid.
If simply like to charge my car to 50 or 60% and then sell any excess to the grid during the day. To avoid buying any powet only selling after my car tops up each morning. I know these companies who are doing vehicle to grid won't like that but I think it's easier to run that way.
What losses do you have in the AC/DC conversions?
AC to DC loss is 5-10% for most car chargers
In Australia the average distance driven per day is only 36km. Who wouldn't like to monetise some of the remaining 240km in a 40kWh Leaf.
30£ is the equivalent of $53.45au. Plus your house gets free first use of up to 7kW when the V2G is operating.
Imagine alm the solar that could be stored in a sunny country when the majority of cars have 50kWh or more of storage in a decade or so.
How much it costs?
This will be great once we figure out how to increase the number of cycles EV batteries can have a useful life with. Otherwise feeding the grid will shorten my battery lifecycle and that can get expensive.
Isn't V2G coming to CCS charging with V3? Which is coming soon.
CCS V2G already works with Honda E, but you can't buy a unit that will charge it. We hope to give manufacturers the data to allow them to make the decision to start investing in them.
Where is this development two years on? CCS is the standard now across Europe
Is it possible to retrofit V2G to a first-generation Leaf?
Your first Gen Leaf can do it, just we can't allow it to join the trial due to the warranty situation.
A bit confused here. I was interested in Powerloop earlier in the year but when I asked if the car could also power my house, I was told that that was not possible at the moment but would be reviewed in the future. Has something changed?
Hey Pablo, so the car will power the house before powering the grid but if there is a power cut the car can't solely power your house...
have you all talk to jaguar?
If you could charge your car from 30% to 100% in 5 minutes and fast chargers were cheaper than house chargers, you could game the system by charging your car on your way home then plug it into the house when you get home and run the house off the car and still have enough to get to work.
There are lot of 'ifs' and you are daydreaming mate :)
@@shirishag75able My point is someone smarter than me probably is doing it or will when it's available. We don't have any of this fancy stuff in Australia yet.
@@fourbypete Why would fast chargers ever be cheaper than charging at home?
@@stephanweinberger They are in Australia.
Some questions:
1. Am I correct in thinking the wall box is, in fact, a charger inverter and it supplies DC between wall and car?
2. Given 1 above can current CCS connected cars be modified to do this by 3rd party fitters and/or original car manufacturers retaining the guarantees etc?
3. Given that any car charging using Type 2 AC at 7 KW are transforming to DC onboard and stepping up to 400 - 500 Volts, can the onboard chargers be changed into charger/inverters and supply 240 volt AC vehicle to grid with minimal installation changes to the building? (Presumably by achieving correct phase matching).
4. Will it require government regulation to require all future cars to be able to do this?
5. If type 2 cannot be used but CCS and CHAdeMO can is it possible to have longer CCS cables 10-15m and can they be untethered?
6. Currently we run 240v Type 2 safely over a foot pavement under a cable protector to our cars. It complies with this www.hants.gov.uk/transport/ev-charging-points/ev-charging-guidance and presents no problems. Could that be done with a 10m CCS cable carrying up to 500 volts?
7. Will on-street residential charging installations be capable of the same with credits going to car owners and the installation provider just being paid a small sum for the service?
Hey Stephen, thanks for the questions.
1. Yes you are absolutely correct!
2. So the Chademo to CCS adapter won't allow this to happen, it is because of the firmware protocol of Chademo. Honda E can do it through CCS but we need some CCS specific charging boxes.
3. Renault have trialed AC specific V2G in the Canary Islands
4. We believe there will need to be government regulation to help this transition.
5. There are no V2G untethered units commercially available at the moment.
6. The Wallbox runs at 240volts and the car battery is the bit of the car that takes it to 400volts. However we recommend that you have your own off street parking to be able to join Powerloop.
7. Nissan have announced that they will, in Japan, be allowing users to pay for parking using V2G. This could be a really exciting development.
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465 Thank you. I think I’ll be looking at some form of home battery storage because of our situation, are Octopus going to do a similar arrangement for people with such installations?
@@reallyoldfatgit No worries, other part of Octopus Energy can help you with home energy storage, but just reach out to us and we can connect you.
I entered into the OVO energy V2G trial resulted in 5 months of no charger at all, 4 Failed V2G chargers garden path dug up. I now have a 7kw Charged EV charger that only charges at 1.4kw and customer service ignoring me. 4 years prior to this I had a Podpoint charger that worked but stopped giving telemetry back to Podpoint so they kept sending me monthly charging of Zero. Customer service was hopeless just more ignoring of fob offs. Over 4 years of electric car ownership and its customer service and unreliable charging equipment that frustrates. Oh and the reason OVO said the V2G didn’t work and they gave up “wrong type of electricity “ so if you enter into these schemes be aware it may not go well .
You know what you need dude - a DIESEL CAR.........!!!!!
I'm just wondering what the long term effect of this will be on the battery. Surely you are putting many unnecessary cycles on the battery.
Actually it can't pull that many amps continuously or quickly. Vs driving the car, since the wallbox itself is limited.
So if the parameters are set accordingly? It doesn't degrade the battery at all. In some studies from other v2g pilots. It's been shown to actual keep the battery in prime shape.
V2x should be just another unique advantage of bevs imo. And the manufacturer can just warranty the battery for a certain amount of total kwhs charged or drained. Which would solve how to handle claims.
V2G has been simmering away for years now and I keep seeing trials with (mostly) Nissan vehicles. When is it likely to go mainstream with CCS/Type 2 and other vehicle manufacturers? Are we on a cusp yet or still in "more trials required" territory?
I read that the CCS group have said they won't have the capability until 2025, and that's then got to be rolled out by the auto manufacturers. Hopefully it can be an over air software upgrade for existing vehicles, but it'll depend on the charging hardware that is in each one. The worst case is that the existing vehicles cannot be hardware-upgraded, so delaying CCS V2G further as autos are replaced.
I did read another source earlier this year that said Teslas were now being made V2G-capable, just not enabled, but CHAdeMO is the only system currently in widespread use that can do V2H/G as it was designed wirh that in mind a decade or so back.
@@examinerian Hey Ian., we know that Wallbox debuted a CCS V2G charger in early 2020 at CES, they then started making PPE for the Spanish government. We know this trial will directly impact that data they use to develop that unit. CCS can do it, the Honda E can, but charging unit manufacturers need to build a unit.
Honda now have V2G working on CCS, the government need data to help understand the use case. Then we will see it grow.
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465 Good stuff! So it might be a couple of years away instead of 2025 for CCS. I did wonder why the upcoming Nissan eSUV had CCS instead of CHAdeMO, so hopefully they're with Honda on enabling V2G on that.
Still, until it all shakes out, CHAdeMO is it for now.
@@examinerian They have announced that that car will be V2G enabled as will the new Lucid Air too. Both not running CHAdeMO
Will this work with a 1st generation Nissan Leaf?
only works if you lease a leaf from them
V2G will work with a first generation Leaf, our warrantees sit on the Leaf we have access too, hence why we only feel comfortable leasing you one.
Thanks for the reply, totally didn't pick up on the leasing requirements.
Surely, every vehicle can be crudely harnessed to have the power available? Why is chademo neccesary?
Thank you Matthew, it is to do with the protocol and the software behind Chademo that allows it to happen easier, we need manufacturers of both charging boxings and the vehicles themselves. We will also provide data so government can legislate in the future for this new way of thinking. But if you join a workshop we can help you understand more.
If the government want a sustainable grid then they could install battery systems in every house and use them to supplement and stabilise power usage throughout the UK. These systems don't have to be just for car owners.
Yes! This system is nice - but largely pointless without mass take-up......!
For flat owners absolutely but there are 45 million cars in the UK so for the many who can charge vehicles at home why waste money and resource on small batteries for each house when you have a much larger battery sitting on your drive/outside your house and that energy can be fed into the house or the grid. This technology is taking far too long for my liking, it is potentially very simple to carry out but seems to me the stakeholders in fossil fuels are holding it back as it will destroy their profits.
Would someone explain why there is the enthusiasm for what is a wasteful way to input power to our electrical system?
Is it because there is the belief that it compensates for renewable intermittency? It doesn't so what else is going for it?
Could you please explain in more detail how and why you think you know what you're talking about?
Because it sounds like you don't!!
If you just look at this from a purely logical, simplistic viewpoint, then if the system has been developed then it follows that it MUST have benefits!!!
So.......?
Andy,
a very good question, could it be that it makes a profit for the developer and retailer?
I really can't see who else will benefit unless the electrical suppliers pay silly money to ev owners backfeeding the distribution system, as they did for solar feed in tariffs in the early days.
The grid certainly doesn't need uncontrolled supply, there's enough of that already.
However that doesn't answer my question as why there is such enthusiasm?
It's just to smooth out the tea time peak that usually means gas power stations firing up. If loads of people had V2g in the future it would cut down on fossil usage.
Tim,
no, on the contrary it would increase fossil fuel generation.
Very few grids have an excess of renewable power so the extra load that evs draw mean an increase in fossil fuel generation. V to grid is very wasteful both of power and for battery life.
@@iareid8255 are you just comparing an ev to an ice car?
This is about plugging in an ev to V2g to smooth grid and reducing load, compared to having an ev sat on your driveway charging only.
Obviously charging an ev will cause more load on the grid compared to using petrol, but some might be able to charge at night when there probably is excess electric.
I would like to report Fully Charged for the V2G situation of the CCS plug. This is much more common in Europe. I am really looking for this solution. Please hurry up!
hey Thilo, we want a CCS plug as well, the data from this trial will help drive this change!
Annoyingly I own a LEAF which basically sits at home all day and night as I use a van for work so the car gets used mainly at the weekend but the big issue is I own the car. They are only offering it if you lease the vehicle 🤦🏻♂️
We wish we could offer it to existing Leaf users but we have an agreement to extend the warranty of the cars we have. We want to keep those customer trial this out of harms way.
so, let's say my employer paid for the charging of my company vehicle, and then I returned home, plugged in, then used the stored power in my home, wouldn't that be theft ? I might be missing something (I don't have an EV but do drive a company vehicle. I'd then be paying for cheap electric at night, but using my companies' expensive electric to power my home.
Company could put custom parameters into the car to not all it to backfeed or take profits them selves or share them. Battery kWh cycle price should be set so it doesn't discharge battery unnecessarily, it has to track market rate and local generation from Solar PV or other source. Even better if it would estimate solar PV cost per kWh as well.
This is another important step to decarbonizing the UK electricity, transport and industry markets. I hope many more EV manufacturers get on board. Then we need another 30GW of new nuclear installed to supply the zero carbon power 24/7.
Find free vend charger, fill up, go home, free energy all evening?
Ah, its a shame you cant join the scheme with a non-Octopus Leaf
We wish you could join too but we (along with Nissan) have extended the warranty to the cars we lease out for added peace of mind regarding V2G.
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465 OK fair enough
Once this becomes mainstream the sale of solar batteries will fall through the floor.
Very disappointed. I was totally enthused until I went on the Octopus website and learn the lease is only for business users. Supposedly because of uncertainty and risk due to Brexit. I do not fully understand but they could could ameliorate the Brexit risk by allowing private individuals who already have a Leaf or prospective purchasers thereof to join the scheme or would that undermine the business model (profit margin)?
Hello Norman, we are still offering Powerloop, you may have been sent to the wrong part of the website. email us powerloop@octopusev.com
There is some uncertainty around the leases of vehicles in the new cars that could be being brought into the UK. We should be able to chat you through it on the email above. Thank you!
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465 I will do that immediately.😀 I used the link at the description to this email by the way.
@@normanboyes4983 let us know when you have, we can't see your email just yet, if we aren't seeing anything please send an email to charlie.fraser@octopusev.com
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465 Just forwarded my original email to Charlie.👍
@@normanboyes4983 thank you Norman, got it so will get you to the right person tomorrow! 👍
Can someone tell me why it's taking soooo long to get V2G into the CCS standard? It's so infuriating that I will be buying an EV next year, that I will probably use for at least 5 years, and it will not have V2G capability :(
Hello Michael, we are hoping we can swing the dial towards standardisation with with this data.
@@octopuselectricvehicles4465
I hope so. I am not in the U.K. although I switched both my parents to using Octopus electricity :) and my sister is next!
Yes, I really hope you and other players in the market can drive much faster introduction of V2G capability for type2/CCS connections. It will have massive benefits when pretty much every car on the road has the ability to back up and stabilise the grid - not least because it will significantly erode the intermittency argument against cheap clean renewables like solar and wind.
Did I miss something? how much will I get paid for someone else using my electricity, £30.00? You've been a busy boy Rob
Not sure they sad, but think its a everybody contributes & everyone benefits idea.!
You didn't Mark, but your house will use this first, meaning that you won't be paying for the energy being used while on V2G. We also refill the amount used on V2G from your arrival SOC for free, so you only pay to charge for the energy used to go driving.
So basically the car acts like a Tesla power wall on wheels..
I wish to be clear I do like the idea, makes sense. Just me being a tight wad. HA HA. I know batteries last a long time but I do wonder how many charge cycles will be used and will this affect the longevity of the battery.
You are not getting ‘free energy’ when the house takes power from the car because presumably you paid for that to charge at home, or at another charger or rolled down an extremely long and very steep hill. I accept there may be a differential saving if you charged at an off peak rate BUT it is not free.
Too bad it's only chademo...
I am with ovo energy and I have had this feature for more than a year this is not new
Hi Christopher. How does one get this if already with OVO? I got a Leaf too.
@@zaharina82
Viktor sorry to say this was a 2 year trial and is coming to an end I do not know what Ovo are going to do going forward.We are told we can keep the V2G charger but will have to go on a variable rate similar to agile so I think they have something in the pipiline
I am begging my power company here in Chicago to start a pilot.
Why is the matt:e box preferred here? Due to ease of installation (PEN), economics? Quality surely not...