Why Did Hamas Attack Israel?
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- Quillette podcast host Jonathan Kay talks to influential Israeli historian Benny Morris about Hamas’ acts of mass murder, the Israeli response, and the future of #Gaza.
First published on Quillette: quillette.com/2023/11/01/the-...
Read Benny's essays for Quillette here: quillette.com/author/benny-mo...
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Benny Morris is an Israeli historian who is recognized for his work on the Arab-Israeli conflict and especially for his research on the history of the Palestinian refugee problem. Born on December 8, 1948, in Ein HaHoresh, a kibbutz in Israel, Morris is often associated with the group of Israeli historians known as the "New Historians," a term that refers to scholars who re-examined the history of #Zionism and the Arab-Israeli conflict since the 1980s, challenging many of the traditional narratives held in Israeli society.
Morris's most influential work is probably his 1988 book, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949." In this and subsequent works, he used newly opened Israeli and other archives to explore the causes of the Palestinian exodus during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. His research suggested that the #exodus was more complex than previously thought, involving a combination of factors including attacks by Israeli forces, fear of attack, expulsion orders, and the collapse of #Palestinian society.
His other notable works include "1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War" (2008) and "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001" (2001), among others.
00:00 An intro to Benny Morris
02:32 The failure of peace efforts post-Camp David talks led to a deadlock in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
07:25 Israel's intelligence gaps and Netanyahu's governance.
08:07 Netanyahu's governance is criticized for prioritizing political agendas over security, contributing to Hamas' successful attacks.
10:36 contrasting earlier intifadas
15:27 Do Israel's military actions in Gaza constitute war crimes?
17:42 Hamas' deeply religious and extremist motivations.
#Israel #terrorism #history #Palestine #zionism #antisemitism #freethought #Intellectual #podcasting #podcastersofinstagram #CZcams #podcastlife #music #youtube #radio #comedy #podcastshow #spotifypodcast #newpodcast #interview #motivation #art #history #republicans #blacklivesmatter #follow #libertarian #art #socialism #communism #democracy #israel #palestine #israelpalestine #bennymorris
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Morris is the only one out there telling it like it is. His work is objective and top-notch scholarship.
100% true. Benny is the most balanced of all modern Israel Historians, he deals with facts above everything else.
Horseshit. Morris is an utterly amoral figure. Kay is even worse.
What about Norman Finkelstein?
@@kacang2 He’s an unbiased historian like I’m the Easter Bunny.
I agree, but I have to say I had the recent displeasure of becoming acquainted w/ an even worse activist masquerading as scholar , a guy called Miko Peled. A truly despicable person, he makes Norman seem only like a sad buffoon in comparison. @@oldschoolsaint
1. I think that the massacre that took place on October 7 was not directly related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. it was a part of an attack on Israel by the Iran-Russia-China axis and its purpose was to prevent the peace agreement that was supposed to be signed between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
2. The fronts Israel faces are not only Gaza but also Hezbollah in the north and the Houthis in the south and pro-Iranian militias in Syria.
3. There is a lot of destruction in the communities in the south and north of Israel and hundreds of thousands of civilians who have been evacuated from their homes.
Hamas wanted to happen exactly what happened. The only thing is that the leader of lran told the representative of Hamas that it is Hamases fight.
At 4:02, you said, "Almost all the settlements overrun by the terrorists..."
When you use the word "settlements," you imply the towns are beyond the Green Line, which they are not. Hamas wants to wipe Israel off the map; they're not focused merely on destroying illegal settlements. The word "towns" would've been more appropriate in this context.
There are no illegal settlement except those built by Arabs in Judea and Samaria.
What you have beyond the green line are the ILLEGAL settlements because Israel chose the status of occupation for these territories. There are many, many (non-illegal) Jewish settlements within the "Israel proper". Israel is a colonial state and
the majority of the colonists arrived only after 1945.
You are conflating settlements with illegal settlements.
A Kibbutz is a settlement.
Kay is very good.
Benny is de best
I’d love to know what Benny would say about what to do with the West Bank.
What a great question you asked for last
Good interview.
the truth is no one wins in wars any violents creates deeper more anger which creates more war more injured more dead more lives destroyed . 2 wrongs dont make a right and knowledge is power stop giving your power away ... to any god and through time there have been very many so educae
Nonsense. We beat the Nazis and the Japanese in WWII. Those were very decisive victories.
@@KathyPrendergast-cu5ci Apples and oranges. You're dealing with religious conviction and indoctrination from people who have only known war. This was not the same as Germany or Japan. These kids are radical indoctrinated since birth, they're going to be more radical after the war not less with or without Hamas.
@@KathyPrendergast-cu5ci lmao nazism and fascism still exist. U don't have to look further than israel , right wing hyper nationalism in europe etc
id listen again. this is not a war like other wars. one side believes they are suppposed to wipe the other off the earth based on something a guy said almost 1500 years ago.
try reading the charter of hamas. especially the part about the rocks and trees. learn the origin of that part. then understand that you can't go back and edit the source material. so we're stuck with these horrendous ideas forever
Well... the Muslims win eternal life in heaven with 72 virgins if they are lucky (=dead).
Great historian
That’s a good lecture. Thank you 🙏🏻!
Does any one seriouly think that if the Arab nations (1) that attacked the new State of Israel. And had they successfully pushed the Jews into the sea they would have established a Palestinian State. Or would they just have carved up the area to suit themselves.
Why is it we never here about the ethnic cleansing of Jews from countries throughout the Middle East.
What is the safer place for a Palestinian to live? Israel or Palestine?
I have my issues with the State of Israel. One is the demographic trend. With the birth rates amongst the Hasidic the Secular Israelies will be a minority living in a theocracy. Also the Hasidic appear to want to enjoy all the rights of being Israeli citizens while bearing none of the burden of being citizens. Rights which Arab Israelies also enjoy.
PS As a thought exercise just think what the Middle East would be like today if the Arabs had welcomed Jewish immigration post WWll.
1) Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq
Dr morris, always a pleasure hearing you. Please do it more and more especially in these days. And it would be beautiful to see a you confront the false narrative presented by Norman Finkelstien and Rashid khalil
I used to love Norm back in the day but the more I've come to actually read his sources and how he takes everything out of context I'm disgusted. His debate with Benny like 15 years ago really disillusioned me, I'm shocked anybody thought Norm walked away from that conversation victoriously.
The Oslo accords still has some relevance to the west banks or Judea and Samaria, the accords gave self rule to Arabs under area A , the laws are a mix in other areas. The agreement gave the parties certain provisions to follow, covering water use and other aspects of civilian life. I do not believe the term apartheid would apply under those agreements. Essentially it was a agreed to separation to provide self rule for Arabs in their populated centers. race of course was not a factor as the similarities between the races both Jewish and Arab are very apparent. Similarity between the Balkans which ultimately led to separate states applies to the situation in Judea and Samaria. The aim was not a Yugoslavia which ultimately failed. but a divided and independent state one Arab and one Israeli.
My only beef is the constant stupid criticism of Netanyahu. Rabin was a terrible Prime Minister. But even he was not vilified like Netanyahu whose reforms of Israel's economy has really improved the place. What did Rabin and Peres do? Bring in terrorists? What did Barak do? What did Sharon do? What did Olmert or livni do? Some respect please. Sorry you think he ruined your dreams of a PLO state, but lets be real. Arafat and the other terrorists did that.
Netanyahu, most likely, would be now in jail because of his well documented corruption. He is a free man only because he still clings to power. Only about 8% of Israeli citizens trust him. He is the only one high official who did not admit his own responsibility regarding the 07/10 failure. His attempts to dismantle the independent judiciary caused public outrage and months of the biggest street protests in the history of Israel.
It's very frustrating that there can be so many different takes on the "true" history of Israel and the Palestinian conflict. Benny Morris' is just one.
since he was a conscientious objector with his military service over the west bank which he calls an apartheid area, and hes critical of israel, hes likely not being dishonest
@@gnlout7403 I'm not suggesting he's being dishonest, rather he has a bias and it plays into which facts are mentioned, which are left out, which are twisted. I have noticed it in his lectures and interviews and he is one of many people who do this and I find it frustrating.
And a very accurate one
@@shtolni Everyone has their own "truth" now. Facts mean nothing anymore.
@@nakana149 if you have an issue with Morris's facts, say it
Great interview.. Morris is my go-to for historiography. I do take exception to his use of the word “apartheid, “ which inherently refers to racial discrimination. A more accurate description is “military occupation” in specific areas of the West Bank, and I don’t even know what to call the defensive blockade in Gaza prior to Oct 7. “Siege” might be the word, but a I’m not sure.
Gaza has been the largest internment camp in history. Now it is the world's largest "death camp".
What are you even talking about. Israel is a state by Jews, for Jews. It is inherently racial, explicitly so according to the Zionists themselves.
The only difference between the founding secular Zionists and the new guard of Zionists in power, is the explicit use of Judaism to justify Zionism.
It is now literally and unabashedly a case of "Jewish master race".
Intressant samtal
“Their motivation (IDF) is essentially revenge… that’s a dangerous sentiment, no?”
“DOESN’T MATTER! That’s,that’s what uh that’s what’s motivating them!”
😂😅 yeah…. So objective and impartial hahahaha
you missed the part where he criticized israel
Do you support the violence of Hamas?
Do you think Israel has a right to exist safely and securely?
So Hamas can take revenge and you people call it ‘resistance’, but IDF can’t do the same?
@@gmw3083 do you mean Gaza?
Isreal pulled every Jewish person from Gaza (a land it won one of the half dozen times it was attacked by its neighbors since 48).
The Palestinians have been in control of Gaza since 05. They elected Hamas in 06. Then they launched 6000 rockets into Israel.
Israel then said you can't come into Israel.
Is that what you mean by 'occupation'?
@@gmw3083 OK
The Palestinians held elections. And they elected a group that calls for the extermination of the Jews via a 1400 year old religious text. That doesn't sound like they had alot of control.
So once they elected these people, then launched 6000 rockets into Israel, how should Israel respond, if you take issue with them closing the border into Israel
Verguenza de verlo
Progressives and Hamas share the same values, they are identical thinkers.
I find it really dumb to call the proponents of a traditional Muslim state progressive (or vice versa)
A biased historian. That's one problem. The main problem is the Submission Bros. Between Cynthia Farahat's "Secret Apparatus," Asra Nomani's "Woke Army," Dr Wafa Sultan's "A God Who Hates" and, by contrast, Omer Saif Ghobash's "Letters to a Young Muslim," you'll understand 99% of the problems. No kidding.
Fearless one side commentary at the moment.
How about Interviewing Illan Pappe?
Finkelstein pulled Morris' justification for the crimes of the Israeli state in his first book.
As he does vis a vis October 7th
Agreed. Bring the Quillette style of independent alternative analysis to what those men have to say.
Because Pappe is a disgraced academic who made up data and found a way to make a living bashing Israel. A sordid individual.
Pappe and Finkelstein are apologists for Hamas. They are highly biased. How do i know that? The facts they conveniently exclude from their commentary. That's not the case with Morris, who tells the whole story. He's resented by apologists from both sides. In my book it lends credibility to his work.
Finkelstein is not a reputable voice.
Yes.
There's a vid of Netanyahu bragging about sabotaging Oslo in which he gives an anecdote about a rabbi telling him it's better to give 2% willingly than 100% by obligation. Benny Morris is the historian's version of that advice applied to admitting the part of Israel's actions that were malignant during the Zionist project.
It is people like you that have created Netanyahu.
Well done!
@@jackburgess8579 How's that? You obviously were unable to understand the comment.
@@chrisbea49
Zionism was extremely idealistic and essentially humanist.
The first right wing government was elected in 1977, 29 years after Israel was founded.
It has repeatedly kicked out such governments ever since, and even
as late as 2000 it offered a two-state solution in exchange for acceptance of its existence.
By giving succour and support to the virulently racist nutcases by which it has been forever surrounded, it is "Zionist project" types such as you who are entirely responsible for seven decades of war and the hardening of Israel's position.
Sorry to differ with some of the audience….. but not sorry to differ with Benny ……
The reality is that Netanyahu doesn’t have full control of the army , as is very obvious from activities right before October 7,23
The IDF leaders refused to cooperate with Netanyahu as part of their opposition to the Likud political position…. THAT WAS A TRAGIC MOVE ON TTHE PART OF THE IDF LEADERSHIP!!!
Let’s be honest about this point first, then afterwords we can try to solve the Palestinian problem.
Unfortunately Benny sided with the left in formulating an opinion here . Shame on you Benny.. I used to listen to your interviews with pride … now I view you as an old man stuck in left field . I was born in Kkfar Sabbba in 1952 .. I don’t know how old you are but I do not care
I love Israel a lot more than you and your destructive left does .
Open your eyes and see the truth before publicizing your false opinion.
Obviously this guy is lying.
Failure of a historian .
And your credentials?
Failure because he's unbiased?
He said barbarism I mean wtf how much more barbaric is what Israel is perpetrating
Israeli soldiers don't rape, behead, disembowel, cut fetuses from pregnant women. Hamas do.
The IDF are soldiers, Hamas are terrorist insurgents.
The IDF do warfare, war has certain rules. Hamas don't follow rules.
War is ugly but Hamas, ISIS and the like is something else. I'm surprised this isn't clear to you.
- Zoe
@@Quillette the cutting out of fetuses from pregnant women and other allegations including the beheading of babies were lies circulated after the attack and have been debunked, the only beheading that there is actual evidence of is that from the video the IDF released that was edited from Hamas video footage of the attack and in the video it shows a dead body laying on the ground and what is alleged to be a Hamas fighter slashing the head with their rifle.
Also, regarding rapes, there have been no first hand accounts of rapes from the attack on October 7th, all of the accounts of alleged rapes were given to Israeli police by third parties and alleged eyewitnesses, no victims of rape have have reported these allegations to the Israeli police, only third party accounts have been reported mainly by first responders that claimed burnt bodies appeared as though they were sexually abused, but there has been no forensic evidence brought forth of these allegations, also the number of dead from the attack on October 7th has also been reduced twice now by the Israeli government, first it was 1,400, then reduced to 1,200 when Israel claimed that hundreds of burned bodies were Israelis when in fact they were identified as Palestinians killed and burned by IDF indiscriminate bombing during the attack and just recently, the number of Israeli deaths from the attacks has been reduced again to 1,000, but the media isn’t reporting this, nor is the media reporting that the IDF killed its own citizens during an indiscriminate bombing campaign during the attack, including a young Israeli girl that was burned and killed by an Israeli tank. All this information comes directly from either Israeli gvt officials or news sources, but yet the media isn’t reporting these things.
It’s also pretty clear at this point that the IDF isn’t following the international rules of war set forth after WWII with the attack on Gaza, if you believe they are, you are naive, it’s an act of revenge just as Morris has stated himself here, even if the numbers of deaths of civilians are inflated by Hamas, it is is still disproportionate to that of the attacks by Hamas on October 7th by thousands, so one has to ask, how much is enough? Do you honesty believe that the IDF will eradicate Hamas this way? Look at the cost of that. How long will they keep this attack going? Until Gaza is unlivable? Netanyahu is facing a host of criminal corruption charges, so he will keep this going as long as he can because it will prevent him from facing those charges and mostly likely going to prison. So, his incentive for and endless war is very high.
Your bias here is showing and it’s disingenuous at best.
@Quillette, yes, exactly. I am completely frustrated why so many people, politicians, and the UN can't see this immense difference. How could Palestinians trust Hamas? How can they approve? They could be the next. Palestinians and other Muslims in this world must know: Western people don't agree with this. This is 7th century style We have moved far beyond such atrocities. They shouldn't be surprised if people turn their backs on them. Many EU countries would deport them when possible. This is not our way of life. Because of this barbaric attacks, deep inside I turned away from Muslims. Sorry to say it. I have two Iranien friends- they are different. I lived as a single mother in a Muslim country. I was very open to their society but it has gone. On 10/7 something died in me.
@@Quillette by your own standards quillette is not reputable. It peddles outlandish and discredited conspiracy theory, that have no basis in fact, to enable the slaughter of innocents. It denies war crimes of the Israeli state. So much for heterodox thought.
@@Quillettea quick google search will show you numerous cases of Israeli soldiers convicted of rape just in the last 15 or so years.
The guy is a historian(?) with lot of Israeli lies and propaganda.