Determining Spoke Length for Wheel Building
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- The procedure for determining spoke length when building a bicycle wheel.
• Online Spoke Calculator - spokecalc.io
• Spoke Length Worksheet - www.parktool.com/assets/img/r...
#wheelbuilding
Questions or comments? Leave them below!
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Video contents:
00:00 Video Start
00:25 Preliminary Info
01:21 Typical Tools
01:51 The Spoke
03:49 The Rim
07:11 Rim Offset
09:01 Hub Dimensions
12:01 Lacing Pattern
13:01 Differential vs. Non-Differential Spoke Lengths
15:02 Online Spoke Calculators
➤ Related Text Articles:
• Determining Spoke Length for Wheel Building - www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...
➤ Tools & materials used:
• DC-1 Digital Caliper - www.parktool.com/product/digi...
• SBC-1 Spoke, Bearing, and Cotter Gauge - www.parktool.com/product/spok...
• Spoke Length Worksheet - www.parktool.com/assets/img/r...
• Any Two Spokes and Two Nipples
• Online Spoke Calculator - spokecalc.io
For a text-based walk-through of this process: www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...
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• Visit our CZcams Channel: / parktool
• Visit the Repair Help section of Parktool.com: www.parktool.com/repairhelp
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Since our founding in 1963, Park Tool has been the leading name in bicycle tools. Our CZcams channel is an extension of our mission to be the ultimate resource for mechanics and riders of all skill levels. Here you will find comprehensive repair help tutorials for a wide range of components and processes, as well as troubleshooting guides, tips and tricks, and information on the latest Park Tool products. - Jak na to + styl
Professor Calvin requires us to show our work!
I have attended a few events where Calvin demonstrated Park Tools and had a repair tent. He was so generous with his time and encouraging for us to learn how to fix and maintain our bikes. I won a deluxe spoke wrench in his little raffle, it’s my favorite.
He is sort of a living legend, and a great ambassador for Park tool and bicycling in general.
Не забувайте ставити лайки, відео саме найкраще на світі! Нехай у всіх все складеться! Дякую авторам!
This summer, I made two 27.5-inch wheels by learning from your video. Front and rear wheels. It was my first time, but I was able to make it well. Thank you for the very easy-to-understand explanation. The rims were tubeless ready, so I made the tires tubeless as well. My bike has a 135mm rear end, so I can't find any finished wheels that can be put on 12 gears. However, Shimano sells 135mm hubs, so I made the wheels originally. Thanks, my Merida 3×8 hardtail is now 1×12. With that in mind, the front suspension has also been upgraded. Now I enjoy riding that bike very comfortably. I live in the suburbs of Tokyo, so I usually run along rice paddy roads instead of mountains.
P.S.
I received PCS-10.3 today. I'm thinking about how to put it in my small room.
All the ParkTool videos are the best anywhere. Visuals are so important and you guys are the gold standard.
I would happily pay Calvin to build me a set of wheels just for the bragging rights! "Why yes, my wheels were built by Calvin from Park Tool!" 😁👍
Why not pay Calvin to teach you to build? Teach a man to fish, eat for a day, teach a man to build wheels, then he comes obsessed with optimizing his bike.
Fantastic video! The best explanation I’ve seen on this topic! Great resource as I build. Thx!!
The worksheet is a fantastic idea! I've built plenty of wheels but have never been systematic about recording the measurements, that's going to change now! Thanks!
I love these parktool videos it's like learning bicycle mechanics from Fank Zappa 🎸
you guys are the best! you make bike repair so easy and fun 👍
thank you for all the hard work! 🍻
Thanks Park Tool company! Love your tools as well as your videos! Happy cycling!
Brilliant- i am about to do my CyTech wheel building next week - but wanted to get ahead (or more likely, to not fall behind in class!), this is just sooooo well explained. Great Video Calvin👏
Another great video Calvin. You're the best at making things easy to follow. You always bestow great confidence in me :)
Roger Musson's Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding. The only PDF I've ever bought in my life, and thoroughly worth it. Following it will hold your hand from zero to your first few sets of wheels.
He did a great job, but he got a bit windy. I wrote a one page, front side only, wheel building how-to, and used it to teach others. Same result.
Calvin, a very good explanation. Thank you
Yes finally!! I actually needed this
We all needed to hear this from Calvin Jones Himself.
17 min video with Calvin. Is it my birthday?
Outstandingly clear - congratulations!
This chap explains things so well 👍
Great explanation and very well detailed too, thanks!
So clear and concise. Thank you.
Nice. Concise. I've been doing this for years and it's nice to see it all in one place explained nicely. Aloha!
Thanks to this video I was able to find out what spokes does my carbon road rims needed easily. Thank you so much!😁
Thanks for simplify this so even I can understand
Park Tool vids are the best!
Great teacher !
I'm building a IGH (internal gear hub) wheel set for rear, a dynamo wheel set for front. This video helps me to figure out a lot. Thank you so much!
I’m planning on doing the same thing!
I love your music, my favourite being Overnite Sensation, but I have even more mad respect for you now that you're building bikes. :)
I see what you did there..... I saw him play one once on TV (Steve Allen Show) but I don't know if he built it too ;)
Great video. Thank you!
Oh man oh Man you are a wizard on this. Thank you 🙏
I personnaly use my own spoke length calculator that I made from an Excel file, mainly with Sinus, Cosinus and square root of X2+Y2+Z2 + some others considerations but I can tell after aving seen other videos that this one is THE BEST, congrates.
P.S. I also use 2D or 3D AutoCAD files for double checking eventually.
Great video, this is really the hard part about building a wheel, in my opinion.
Others are already "ready made", for three cross, 29ers have spokes 295mm, 27.5 rims match with 275mm spokes, 700c wheels match 288mm spokes as long as its double wall
Ive a lot of older hubs/rims fiamme suntour phil wood etc this helped a lot
Best video ever ❤❤❤❤ very profesional
I'm about to build my first set of wheels this is super helpful
Brilliant !
Thank you park tool. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
excellent thank you
Just perfect
This is perfect timing. I just bought a wreck for $10 that has a 3 speed gear hub and had a rear rim in pieces. Old enough I can’t just use the dt swiss calculator.
Calvin is wise. If your lengths come out wrong, it's a product of your measurements. Different people measure slightly differently so they might need to build more than one wheel to really nail the lengths. I don't mean necessarily to measure differently or more carefully but just to see if you should round up or down your numbers to get better results. Or add a slight length correction to the spoke lengths before ordering.
If you don't rely on manufacturers measurements you have the advantage of repeatability. When presented with different components you don't have to worry about the supplied measurements being measured differently. So measure yourself right from the start. Don't trust the manufacturer to know everything exactly.
I just made all my entries & will still have an expert double check my spoke length requirements. Be interesting just to see how well or badly I did. :)
I read somewhere that Calvin's mustache quivers when he's making a mistake before he even realizes he has made one. That's a primary reason he is so good at what he does. Like the hairs on our backs standing up if danger is approaching.
Ini bagus. sebagai informasi tambahan. 👍
A lot of spoke calculators don't ask for offset and give me different numbers than the numbers I got from spoke calc. I went with the spoke calc numbers and pulled the trigger. We'll see how they lace up. Had to rely on the manufacturer ERD since I didn't have any spokes around. It's a cheap wheel so hopefully I'll be ok.
This is some top quality content 🙌
Damn you're good GJ!!!!!
yes. i was about to upgrade my 26er wheel set and build a 27 wheel set
Thank you, I am building my first wheel and I was wondering if I could just get the average length of the spokes. then each will only be 1mm off. You answered my question, thankyou.
Thank you sar🇧🇩
El tío Calvin siempre dando cátedra. ¿What about making a video about those rims called G2 or G3 or those kind of rear hubs with 14 spoke holes on drive side while just 7 of them in non-drive side?
good
This makes doing a suspension overhaul look easy.
He wants five measurements. Lots of filler to keep the viewer from straying.
Just an FYI
SpokeCalc will not accept smaller wheels (i.e. 16" trailer wheels). It returns an input error on the ERD field.
The UBI tool linked in the ParkTool website article that accompanies this video worked just fine.
In my case I am building a 16" BoB trailer wheel with a 36h Shimano Alfine Generator hub (70mm flange dia.) so the spoke length is ludicrously short. (111mm)
Challenging ? That's an understatement.
The most important think to remember is, however you measure, you will be wrong.
In the spoke calculator it is asking me for width between holes in the rim section. It is not there in your video. I have calculated spoke length successfully before with this calculator and do not recall this measurement. It there a setting in the calculator so something I am missing?
un video de maestro,una buena empresa
Two very important points left out of this video are:
1. Under tension rims compress and spokes stretch. Many (all?) calculators do not take this into account and so you might want a shorter spoke than calculated. Running out of threads when building can damage nipples and make the whole experience sour. Nipple washers can be used sometimes as a workaround if the error is small. On high tension wheels like rear+drive side it is very important to get it right, and that's also the place where most lengths come out wrong too (more compression/stretch). This problem is aggravated when using lightweight spokes. So depending on the weight of the spoke and the tension that's going to used, it could need a larger final length correction.
2. ERD might be a standard in the industry but sadly it's often measured differently. The best is to measure yourself with the nipples you intend to use. AND ensure that the calculator doesn't assume otherwise, meaning it should not make corrections based on the nipple choice. You don't want to account for the nipples twice or not at all.
Roger Musson's calculator takes spoke stretch into account. The spoke lengths I get from his calculator are shorter than what I get from, say, the DT Swiss calculator
Great tutorial! On some recumbent trikes the rear section frame is built asymmetrical. So instead of centering the rim between the locknuts it is centered between the hub flanges. How would that be calculated.
In that case, the center-to-flanage would be the same for left and right side. Measure flange to flange. Divide by 2. That is the Flange-to-center measurement for that wheel.
Thanks for another helpful video. Clear, concise and no fluff.
Can you tell me will the same measurements apply for a fat bike wheel? The spoke holes have quite a bit of offset which makes me ask.
Fat bike spoke calculations are a bit different. The offset at the rim should be divided by 2 and then added to each side of the center to flange dimension.
@@parktool Thanks just saw this. But added or subtracted. I have been reading that measurement should be subtracted from each flange measurement.
Love from INDIA...🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳
❤️❤️❤️❤️
Hi Calvin, I'm from Brazil. In a non-symmetrical rim, when measuring the difference from the center of the rim to the center of the hole, do I take into account the hole that is closest to the center of the rim or the hole that is furthest away? I participated in the wheels course at Escola Parktool Brasil and received your certificate. 😃
In theory you can measure both, then average them. However, the stagger from hole to hole is small, and will not make any significant difference.
Great video,thanks, planning my first wheel build. I picked rim,hub, style spoke , what is the correct nipple ? So i should order hub, rim ,nipples measure ERD then order spokes? Do you have a service that would look at chooses made and approve them ? Thank you
When you select the spoke the nipples should be shown as compatible with that spoke. We recommend 14mm brass nipples for most builds.
What role would the nipple length play in building wheels where the differential lengths were at 3 mm? Could one use alternating 2.0x12mm & 2.0x14mm while using the same length spoke?
Good question. Nipple length does not matter for the best length. The end of spoke should be above the rim-to-nipple contact point. The 14mm or 16mm nipples extend below the rim. The nipples are identical above that point, so spoke length determination does not change.
Is there anything inherently wrong with widening the hub holes by 1mm tops 1.5mm?
See, I had ordinary spokes on my new bike which kept breaking. Fed up with it I decided to re-lace both wheels and the stronger spokes I have are slightly thicker. So a little help here folks, is there anything wrong with widening the hub holes?
English subtitles, please. Thanks!
Can someone tell me what's the use of this complicated contraption with old spokes and calipers ? Why not use a simple string instead ?
The spokecalc website asks for "lateral width between holes" in the hub measurements. That is not shown here on this vid. Why not? How to measure that too??
Your rule of thumb of differential spoke lacing with 1mm go longer, 2mm average them, 3mm buy different spokes, does that apply to smaller diameter rims? i.e. bmx rear wheels.
Yes , it does. BMX wheels typically use hubs with very similar flange-to-center dimensions. It rare to see one build with differential spoking.
Are you freakin kidding me. I was going to try this but not now. I need a beer!
Thank you so much for this great tutorial - super helpful! I was able to calculate my spoke length using your guide and spokecalc.io, but I've run into a problem:
The spoke lengths for my rear wheel are 290 and 291mm. You suggest using the longer measurement for both. Problem is 291mm isn't available where I live, only 290 and 292mm. Should I purchase both length and create a more asymmetric wheel?
If I went for a 32H 2x instead (of 3x) I'd need 280mm for both sides and not have the problem, but I'd have a less sturdy wheel set.
What do you suggest?
The dilemmas of wheel building. I guess I'll start by saying that a 32h wheel built 2x will be quite sturdy and strong. If you went 3x I would go 290 and 292. Good luck!
@@parktool Thank you so much for the reply! I really appreciate it!
I'll opt for the 2x, now that with your advice I feel reassured that they will be sturdy enough. That'll also save me a whopping 10g of weight! xD
Thank you so, so much!
😂😂, you think you have problems 😂😂 wait till you hear my story.
@@tmophead Go on?
Hi Calvin, Great video! My rear hub measured at 298 and my front hub at 300. Will the 298 suffice for the front hub so I can buy just one box of spokes? Thank you!
Suffice. Yes.
Ideal. No
Less engagement up front with 298, but also less stress. I will work.
4:53 bill mould thinks a little different, for him , ideal spoke length is when last thread cut deep into nipples thread, to prevent spoke to break on thread, what is really rare situation, spokes break on elbow in 99%, so i know(not think) that good spoke length is what you said +/- 2mm, i made wheels on customer demand with spokes that were connected with nipples on 5-6 threads and wheel survived
Would you use differential spoking for some of the spokes in the 3-cross pattern as well?
Differential spokes gives the best thread engagement on each side. Yes, it can work well for 3X, or 1X, or 2X. Only needed where the hub flanges have different offsets.
Update: The spokecalc has added a hole to hole dimension on the rim that has fixed the calculator for me. My fat bike rims were always getting wrong numbers and it's because the calculator didn't know how far from center the holes in the rim were, and on fat bikes, that can be pretty long. I put offset at 0 and input the hole to hole dimension in that slot on the calc and it put me 1mm away from where I ended up with my spoke length through trial and error.
You can also divide the offset at the rim in two and minus that number from each side's center to flange.
What is this measurement asking for? Is this distance between each hole on the rim? If so, how do you measure that given the arc of the rim? It's described as "lateral width"?? Not distance between. Is that the same as offset??
@@jonnyminer4915 It's a measurement across the width of the wheel, not down the arc. If the rim is 60mm wide, and the hole centers are 25mm from the outside edges of the rim, then 60-25-25=10, so there's a 10mm width between the holes.
Offset is different. That says whether the rim is symmetrical or not. A symmetrical rim can still have a staggered hole pattern with holes that are off center, but they will be equally distant from center on each side. If the holes aren't equally distant from the center, and are all shifted further in one direction, then you have an offset.
I've learned so much from these Park Tool videos. I now have a respoked non-differential wheel after following your instructions. The only area I was unsure of was the flange to center distance. For my wheel, I measured the flange to flange distance and divided measurement in half. Are your measurements due to the rim being differential? Kindest regards and much appreciation.
The needed measurements are from flange to hub center. Flange to flange does not get this. Measure hub width where it contacts the frame. Divide that by 2, for the middle of the hub as it sits in the frame. Now measure from hub end one flange. Subtract that from the number of 1/2 hub width. That is then Flange-to-hub-Center. Repeat on the other side.
OK, now I understand better the procedure if not the theory. Thank you for the explanation.@@parktool
Hey there,i have a question, I'm building a pair of wheels but my front wheel on the left length according to you video show 293 mm but i found it on 294 or 292 mm... it's really imperative to use 293mm or can I use 294mm for example? My first Spokes choose are sapim d light (2mm length increase) and the second are dt swiss competition (1mm length increase).
I'll building a trail bike on 29 rims
.
Thanks for you help, greetings from Chile!
Typically you will want to go longer if you are faced with a situation like this. So, you will be looking at the 294's. Cheers!
@@parktool thanks for your reply. Last question , if I followed all the instructions on the video, the length spoke results are 100% accurated?
@@CesarAGUGT Thats the goal.
@@parktool thanks for your time and I'm going to star the building process and when i done i contact again. I'm really appreciate your time and knowledge. Thanks for your help 😉
For measuring rim ERD, why is it recommended to measure at a spoke hole that's away from the valve hole?
That is an old habit. On some older rims, there is an internal seam. The ERD would be different at this point. You don't see that type of rim anymore.
Need help for my novatec hub 36holes.what spokes size should i buy.i had 29er stout rims
You will need to measure the hub. Find the rim on-line for the ERD.
It would be interesting to talk about calculating straight pull hubs measurements.
That is something we are working on. Straight pull hubs are difficult to measure. See Spokecalc.io for the concept when using straight pull. DT Swiss offers a data base for their hubs.
@@parktool 🤞
Hello thanks, I was wondering, I have 24h front and 32h rear with dual and triple cross patterns respectively. Is it possible if I lace dual cross on the rear or triple cross on the front for compatible looks?
It is possible to do, but not logical. You will need new spokes and they will still be aesthetically different because of the spoke count difference.
Update: I've did a forum research and came up with unique solution. I've attached the 24h rim to measure the back hub. Now, the back hub is Nuvinci n380, spokecalc.io doesn't accept hub diameters bigger than 90mm in formula, so I had to improvise. Measured NDS direct-connect to 32h hub which is 242mm, and 1X pattern on the DS, as it will show a crow's foot pattern(2:1) This solution made me so grateful. It not only rescued the visuals but also saved weight and equalized the distribution of spoke tension between DS and NDS.
Can't wait till my second 24h rim and spokes will arrive.
Though I found the solution by myself, I wouldn't do so, if I wasn't inspired by your video. Thanks, Calvin!
Have a nice one!
Here is a guy explaining advantages of 2:1 lacing, which was first used by Lord Ford.
czcams.com/video/Yp-yT40xQqc/video.html
Apparently, my previous issues of rim-brake rubbing more on the DS would come to an end! I'm gladder than glad btw.
Nicely done and explained! Please forgive my any mistakes on the use of english :P
According to the front and rear hubs manufacturer's specs i came up to the following
using spokecalc:
front left spokes 253,8 mm / right 255,23 mm and
rear left spokes 253,87 mm / right 253,81 mm.
So which length should i choose for both rims? Will an average of 256 mm be enough?
Or should i buy the respective lengths?
Thank you very much in advance and cheers for Calvin :):):)
Why not use 255?
@@jybuys unfortunately i couldn't manage the wheels myself so sent hubs spokes nipples and rims to a bike shop who told me that on one side i need 259.
he did all again from the beginning and now i have my wheels done ready to go be mounted
the longer the spoke less the stress we put on it.....this decrease the rip of spoke....so the more secure you are....what do you think Calvin???
Hi guys hope fortus pro 4 30w 29 rims. 32 holes, hub 9x135mm qr. What size and type of spoke is compatible. thanks for the reply
Follow the procedure in this video and you can find out :)
How to determine the flange diameter with the square body (Fulcrum racing 500 DB) thank you
That uses a Straight Pull hub, with only 8 spokes. Use the same calculator but look for the Straight Pull mode, not the J-bend. These hubs are very difficult to measure for head insertion in the flange. It is best to use the manufacturer's specifications.
You've covered the length of the spokes extensively, but i've not seen any videos that mention the thickness of the spokes. Is it a matter of preference? Would all spoke thickness and respective nipple sizes fit through the wheel rim? If that's the cause would say a 12G spoke provide a stronger wheel than a 14G at expense of being heavier? Thanks
The larger diameter spokes are of course stronger but that does not mean a stronger wheel. The weak point of the system is most always the rim. A thicker spoke will take more stress cycles, but again the rim is taking the impacts and stress of riding.
The "gauge" system for spokes is antiquated and misleading. There are different diameters in the "American Wire" and "British Wire" gauge systems. Gauges are a system of electrical resistance for electrical wire. For bicycle spokes, it is best to give just the diameter. "12G" is 2.63mm. 14G is consider at 2mm spokes.
@@parktool Thank you. Appreciate the quick reply
I have a trike hollow hub with no axle. There’s no way I could measure the way you are. Is there a specific website or way to calculate spoke size for hollow hub?
Since the hub on a trike like that is concentric you need to measure center of flange to center of flange, divide that number by 2 and that is your center to flange. The flange diameter will be the same.
I have only 3 available spoke choices. 289, 291, and 295mm.. the spoke calculator gave me the result of 292 on left anf 294 o right.. which spoke lenght should i get? If i average then, i would get 293.. now im confused.. i cant get a 294mm or any other lenght here in my country..
If you can only get 295mm, then you can try 295mm. Better too long than too short. If this is a taller rim, the extra spoke sticking out should not be an issue. Another option is a rim washer, which adds to the ERD, and would help take up the extra length.
@@parktool okey ill pick up a 295.. thanks park tool.. i really learned alot from your videos ever since ive started biking..
sir how i calculate width between holes? There is an option on online spoke calculator=> rear wheel => rim=> WIDTH BETWEEN HOLES.🤔
If there is minimal offset you can leave that number at zero. If they are offset quite a bit then the manufacturer will often give that number in the specs or you can measure best possible.
Can I just measure the spoke if I'm just replacing a spoke and not have to go through all this trouble
So many factors 😳
Can I use analogue calipers too? would save me a lot of money.
Yes. Those are probably Vernier calipers and can be read to 1/10th millimeter.
I have the wheel, nice and true. Even spoke tension. Broken 4 spokes in 4500 miles. Want to rebuild track rear with new spokes of 270mm as measured on Park spoke ruler. Having trouble getting any. Built many wheels in my day but everybody just wants to sell the more profitable wheel set. Online shops just assume nobody can measure an existing wheel's spoke length and Lbs is out! Maybe calculate cross 3 or even 4. Just like a game of bingo.
I use the OG spoke calculator: Pythagoras and the Law of Cosines
Respect!
You mean this?
Spoke Length = sqrt[ (RRSP - (HSR * cos(SAA)))^2 + HFO^2 - (HSR * cos(SAA))^2 ]
@@bob-ny6kn That’s probably what the online calculator is doing behind your back! Nice.
@@michaelhoste_ well, that little S.O.B.! (spoke optimis/zing background)
Is it important to know what length the spoke nipples are when measuring ERD? I’m in a tail spin about getting done correctly!!
No, it is not. Consider it where you want the spoke END to end. A tall nipple will need effectively a longer spoke. Or adding a washer under a nipple, assuming you want the spoke to end flush with the nipple.
Which Cross pattern should I use if I don't care about weight but want extreme durability for lots of weight?
3X is the most common
@@parktool I'm lacing up a huge hub motor. The best method is a 1 x with elbows out as far as I know. Any other patterns run the risk of entering the nipple hole at a weird angle
I would like to find the formulas to be able to do this with a calculator instead of using a program calculator I found a lot of stuff that is closed but nothing that is exact
The equation is out there. WheelPro has a good article on it.
so need to have spokes for the firts measurement?
Most rim manufacturers list the ERD on their respective models. However the most accurate method is to measure yourself.
Good Day. Is it okay to use 16mm nipples? I got too long spokes and I'm thinking that it in the long run it might rub down on the middle part of the spokes too much as I am also using Sapim D Lights which is 1.6mm in the middle. I also used Sapim HM washers which I think helps a bit on the direction of the spokes from the rim to the hub? Thank you!
16mm is fine. An ideal spoke length comes to the end of the nipple, filling all threads. 16mm should not be used to "cheat" and allow building with too short of spoke.
Great info! Thank you so much!@@parktool