Do You Need A SPOKE TENSION METER to Build Bicycle Wheels?
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Spoke tensiometers tell you when the spokes are tight enough to make a great wheel. Here's how they're used and advice on if you even need one. #WheelTruing #JimLangley #BicycleAficionado #ParkTool
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Timecodes:
0:00 - Intro
0:16 - Purpose of bicycle wheel spoke tensiometers
0:38 - Advantages of having a spoke tensiometer
1:12 - Park Tool vernier spoke tensiometer
1:31 - Wheel Fanatyk digital tensiometer
1:41 - How bike wheel spoke tensiometers work
2:18 - Reasons for getting a tensiometer
2:44 - Using Park Tool's TM-1 spoke tension meter
3:18 - Park Tool Spoke Tension chart
3:28 - Park Tool TM-1 spoke measurement gauge
4:08 - Using the Park reference chart to determine spoke tension
4:45 - Using Wheel Fanatyk's spoke tension gauge
5:13 - Using the Wheel Fanatyk reference chart
5:47 - Why I recommend the Park Tool and Wheel Fanatyk tools
6:25 - Park Tool and Wheel Fanatyk online app tension resources
6:49 - Measuring wheel spoke tension with Park's TM-1
7:16 - Which spokes you measure tension on
9:08 - Measuring wheel spoke tension with Wheel Fanatyk's tool
10:55 - Closing comments, final points
Park Tool Wheel Tension App
www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...
My other wheel-building related videos
● How to Build Bicycle Wheels the Easy Way
• How To Build Bicycle W...
● Basic bicycle wheel terminology explained:
• Bicycle-Wheel Spoke Te...
● How to find or calculate the right spoke lengths
• 5 Ways to FIND THE RIG...
● Ways to keep spokes tight so your wheels stay true
• Bicycle Wheel Building...
● How to fix aero spokes that were twisted during building
• Fixing Bladed Spoke Tw...
● Pro-tip: how to align hub labels with the valve:
• Wheel Building Pro Tip...
● How to build wheels faster with a driver bit
• Build Bicycle Wheels F...
● Shimano's lacing pattern for disc brake bike wheels:
• How to Lace Disc Bicyc...
● How to inspect a pair of new wheels:
• ICAN Chinese Carbon Bi...
☼ Here are the wheel building tools I show, use and mention. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases (no added cost to you).
► Park Tool's Spoke Tension Meter
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► Wheel Fanatyk Spoke Tension Meters
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► Efficient Velo Tool's Mulfinger nipple holder
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► Park Tool's Nipple Driver
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► Park Tool's TS-4.2 Truing Stand
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► Park Tool's Tilting Base for the TS-4.2 Truing Stand
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► Park Tool's TS-2.2 Truing Stand
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► Park Tool's Tilting Base for the TS-2.2 Truing Stand
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► Park Tool's 3.2mm Square Socket Internal Nipple Spoke Wrench (Driver)
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► Park Tool's Four-Sided Spoke Wrench Black 0.127in
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► Park Tool's Portable Dishing Gauge
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► Park Tool's Aero Spoke Holder (anti-twist tool)
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► For hubs, rims & spokes, I use
wheelbuilder.com
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☼ My bicycle wheelbuilding articles that complement this video:
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● jimlangley.net/wrench/buildwh...
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★ WATCH this video next on ways to find the right spoke lengths for wheels czcams.com/video/LvV4FE2VxZk/video.html
It's criminal that an informative video like this presented by an expert has only 6K views yet a nobody flipping a bottle thousands of times till it lands on the lid can get millions. Sigh......
Thanks for watching and the awesome comment, Andrew - you made my day 🙂
So true, the modern world has lost the plot
@@JimLangley1Just found your channel. Thanks a million for sharing your knowledge! This is the absolute best instructional videos on wheel building. Every serious cyclist should know how to build/repair their own wheels. I’m fairly new to cycling, but I love it, and learning how to build, tune, customize bikes and wheels is almost my favorite part! Just subscribed and will send to my cycling buddies. 😊
@@DrunkDrynasty welcome to my channel DD and thanks so much for the great comment and sub, appreciate it! It sounds like you might have already watched it, but if not, here's my full lesson on wheel building for beginners - the vid that launched my channel. It's the link to share with people who want to learn to build wheels because it's the best vid on CZcams for beginners so please share this - thank you!
czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html
Up to 44K now! The Algorithm is a cruel mistress
The SPOKE TENSION is strong in this guy
Cool video Jim. Those are some very cool and handy and easy to use tools.
Glad you like the tensiometers, Locks. They are great tools. Thanks for watching and commenting, appreciate it!
Thanks Jim. Appreciate you taking the time to make this informational video!
You're very welcome Sam. Thank you for watching and the great comment!
If you just build wheels occasionally, you probably don't 'need' a tensionometer or any decent shop can check it for you. I personally. wouldn't charge anyone for this service.
In Jobst Brandt's book (The Bicycle Wheel) he recommends comparing tension by tone while plucking spokes like a guitar string. You can use a wheel of known quality and similar design for comparison. Of course you need to have a decent ear for tone.
This works very well for me. When I started building lots of wheels, I finally bought a Park tensionometer and found the wheels I built earlier all had acceptable tension within about a 10% variance. Tone wise, I shoot for about a half tone sharp or flat, however I'm a lifelong musician. One of these days when I'm bored, I'm going to 'tune' a crappy wheel to play a song!!
After building hundreds of wheels, I can also feel tension while I stress relieve the wheel and start to bring tension up during a build. Im not saying this is a very accurate means of measuring tension. It's just a reference.
The Park tool is an excellent value, but I only use it for final tensioning generally unless I sense something abnormal in a wheel.
For simply truing and maintaining wheels, which is a big part of my business, I find the tone method is perfectly adequate and very efficient.
I also use a dial indicator and a magnetic base to get my wheels extremely true. Im a retired machinist with the perfectionist's disease!
Thanks a lot for watching and the great comment, rollin! I knew Jobst and recommend his excellent book in my videos. The pluck spokes and listen to the music they make tension gauging technique probably goes back to the earliest days of cycling or the first wire spoked wheels, which would have been around the 1870s. More recently, I am pretty certain I read about it from the tech editors of Bicycling Magazine in the 1970s, it might have been Fred DeLong, Richard Jow or maybe Dick Swann who wrote about it. The possible reason these methods were used is because an actual spoke tensionometer tool didn't come along until later. I didn't have one in the shop until 1981 (a Hozan). I imagine they were invented before then but I don't remember seeing any in the 1970s. I have tried plucking spokes to check spoke tension. For me it works as a quick way to tension a spoke when you replace a broken one. You can compare its tone to another of the same side and if the sound is the same the wheel will usually be close to true. However, I find it less useful for checking optimum wheel spoke tension and I think it's probably because I'm not a musician like you. Congratulations for having that skill and thank you again for the great comment. Enjoy your wheel building!
@@JimLangley1 I think it's really cool you reply to do many of your commenters. I appreciate that!
I'm was always surprised spoke tensionometers never existed earlier. I bought my Park unit in the early 90s maybe. I don't really remember. I probably still have the receipt somewhere.
I'm a retired machinist and have been using dial indicators and many other analog and mechanical precision instruments for decades. Using one for wire deflection isn't exactly rocket science! Similar instruments exist to measure tension on cables and such. I ran the machine shop in an engineering test lab at NASA Ames and learned something new every day!
A couple of my old riding buddies knew Mr Brandt and joined his epic death rides. I could never secure an invite! I was also an early 'dirt-roadie' though! I loved the adventure of exploring all the dirt roads in the Santa Cruz mtns.
Bike tech, rider's habits and traditions seemed to move ultra slowly for quite a few years. Now, so called 'technology' moves far too fast!! The wheel (and everything else) is constantly 'reinvented' and tested on unknowing consumers. I just call it job security! But this aspect of the industry ashames me in a way.
I spent my career in high reliability manufacturing. Where
human life is often in the balance. But I'm aware that human lives also rely upon bicycles.
I've worked in nice high end shop in the South Bay Area for only 7 years, but wrenched on all my bikes since I was a young kid. My dad helped me learn. Walking everywhere my only alternative! I love bikes and can truly say I love my job repairing them! Cheers my friend!
@@rollinrat4850 I only rode with Jobst when I ran into him a couple of times while he was riding over here to Santa Cruz from Palo Alto. He was easy to spot with his huge frame size and no water bottle. I'd pull up next to him and say hi and he would just start talking - very friendly and incredibly knowledgeable. He knew more about the Santa Cruz Mountains than anyone. He said he knew all the springs to drink safely from and told me about a historic cork tree in SC that I now know where it's located. He was not interested in modern bikes and said he only ever owned one bike that he rode everywhere. I enjoyed the few times I got to ride with him a lot.
I've worked in the industry since high school and love it just like you. I think the reason bicycle tools like tension meters didn't exist is because people didn't think they were needed. The bicycle was long seen as a simple machine, almost a toy. And, the awesome thing is that even the cheapest most basic bike will keep going and going and going. Also, it's relatively easy to fix bikes with basic tools or tools you can make yourself. So I think the fact that it's so simple and easy kept the tools pretty basic for a long time.
Things are changing slowly but surely and we are seeing nicer and nicer tools and higher tech on bikes such as hydraulic systems and electrical, too - which may or may not be a good thing depending on your point of view ☺
@@JimLangley1 Indeed. I like to say 'simple is as simple does'. My favorite bike these days is a fixed gear cyclocross bike I built from old or free junk. It's built on an old Miyata touring frame that was free. I ride it for fun , like being a young kid again. Its the only bike I ride most of the winter. It's fun to ride commuting, on my local training loops. It's super fun for the easier rolling trails. Not so fun, but 'character building' in the mtns!!
Last year I was GIVEN! an old forgotten Albert Eisentraut frame rusting away in a friends storage. Im restoring and repainting it. I'm building my own low trail fork for it. An Eisentraut frame was the teenage dream bike I never could have afforded. I still remember the weekend ride to Santa Cruz in the '70s when my neighbor let me borrow his. Silk Del Mondos and all! That memory is still like a dream come true! A magic carpet ride. It was effortless! The Eisentraut will be ridden off-road often as is my tradition until it breaks. As far as I'm concerned, bikes are tools to be used.
@@rollinrat4850 an Eisentraut! Boy what a nice gift - enjoy the restoration and especially the ride!
Great information. I learned a lot.
Thanks a lot for watching and the great comment, Robb, happy to hear it! Enjoy your wheel building!
Jim I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge - I enjoy maintaining and building bikes and you've give me the confidence to build (rebuild with more modern hubs) several wheels for project bikes so thank you!
You’re very welcome, Matthew- thanks a lot for watching and letting me know my videos are helping you with your projects - that’s great to hear!
Thank you for your great videos
You're most welcome, Zidny. Thank you for watching and commenting!!
GREAT VIDEO!!
I'm very happy you like it, fix-it-guy, thank you so much for watching!
Jim you are a legend...thank you for the open university... absolutely fabulous information.
My pleasure Michail, happy to hear you're enjoying my videos. Appreciate you watching and the awesome comment, thank you! 🙏❤
Just built my first wheel tonight and wow…I put that off way too long😂 Easier than I thought and a fun challenge!
Great job Mitchell, way to go! Thanks for watching and enjoy that wheel!!
I like videos like this, even though I'm a self taught wheel lacer. Good stuff!
Thanks for watching and commenting Robert, glad you enjoyed the video!
Very informative video. I finally decided to get a tension meter, even though I am not planning to build many wheels. But I like measuring stuff, and nice new tools :D
I might have missed it, but I think it was not mentioned in the video: before using it to measure tension, the Wheel Fanatyk tool should be zeroed (squeeze the tool, put it on the spoke, without releasing the grip, hold the tool so that the spoke touches the two bearings and the indicator's probe, then press the zero on the digital indicator version or rotate the dial so the pointer is at 0 on the dial indicator version). If you don't zero the tool, it's only useful to compare tension between multiple spokes, not to refer to the conversion table.
Another thing many tension meter users end up doing is building a calibration jig/stand. This allows you to check the accuracy of your tension meter, and make your own charts for any type/gauge of spoke that you want to use. There are multiple DIY designs, most of them using a digital force meter / scale (with eyelets or hooks), it shouldn't be too hard to build. I reckon, if you buy an expensive tension meter, it is worth it to build a calibration jig.
My pleasure Gene, thank you for watching and for your helpful comment! Two quick thoughts: you do have to zero out the Wheel Fanatyk tool at first when your check wheels you're building, but as the tension gets closer and closer to full finished levels, you need to zero it less and less. You also can move the tool on the spokes and rotate it on the spokes and usually find the spot where it reads 0 without having to hit the button to zero it. These things happen because spokes are rarely truly round and you have to find the round spot to get the zero reading (or the flat spot on bladed/aero spokes). And when the spokes are loose too the readings waver a lot.
Then as far as making a tension accuracy gauge, you can send the tools back to the factory to have it checked too. That way they can handle any recalibration of the tool needed. I'm not sure there are instructions for do it yourself tension meter fine-tuning. I've been using my Wheel Fanatyk tensio meter for 6 years and it reads the same as new after hundreds of wheels (checked against my much newer Park Tool tensio meter FYI). So I don't think these tools need recalibration very often so long as they're not dropped or misused. Thanks again for the great comment and happy wheel building.
Watching your videos, I'm reassured that not only could I build a wheel for myself but I could enjoy the process. Thank you for the generous resource.
Thanks for watching and the great comment. I'm happy to hear my videos are helpful and that you're thinking about building wheels. You can do it.
I've built many a wheel myself. Rene, the owner of G & R bike shop in Detroit spent so much time on my wheels, that he gave me free guidance on DIY. That was in the early 70"s. After reading Jobst Brants' book, I truly went DIY. Spending 3 three year tours in Panama and Germany, lacing wheels for my high speed, low drag bike comrads gave me the confidence charge for my service. The tools mentioned can make a Harbor Freight job a Snap-On jobd. Thank you for your time and passion to share your knowledge.
@@MrAudioBill thanks a lot for watching and for sharing your wheel building journey, MrAudioBill. It's wonderful that G & R bike shop helped you learn to build wheels and also that you used your skills to help your comrades. You're right that Jobst's book is a fantastic resource. It's out of print now but actually available to read for free online if anyone is interested (here: www.dropbox.com/s/mbsx865uzz0s7jq/Bicycle_Wheel_-_Jobst_Brandt.pdf?dl=0 ) Jobst Brandt was the engineer that helped design the Wheel Fanatyk wheel tensiometer that I show in my video. Thanks again for the watching and most excellent comment ❤🙏
Thanks Jose. Yes, the 2.3 can handle all regular wheels. You really only need the 4.2 if you need to work on fat bike wheels or other oversize hubs and if you want to true with wide wide tires on the wheel. Hope this helps!
Correct tension and linseed oil on the threads for the win for sure.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Brian, appreciate it!
Raw linseed oil. Not boiled. Sam Braxton taught me this trick.
Got to double check what I have, It takes a month for it to dry if you don't hair dryer them.
@@chrisallen2005
Yeah, I've settled for the Hozan C-738: Unlike the models you use, it doesn't rely on its spring to bend the spokes. The Parktool in particular eventually runs into breakaway torque instead of reading, and the bike fanatyk needs (admittedly rare) spring calibration since it relies on pulling.
Thanks for watching and sharing your favorite tensiometer, Editio. Here's a link for anyone interested: wheelfanatyk.com/products/hozan-digital-tensiometer The first spoke tensiometer I had in the shop back in the early 19890s was actually Hozan's C-737 which appears to still be available on eBay: www.ebay.com/p/1001730909 I think it's worth noting that both of Hozan's tools are considerably more expensive than Park Tool's or Wheel Fanatyk's and that to wear either of those out would take checking tension on thousands of wheels. They are all excellent tools. Thanks again 🙏🚴
Thank you very much Jim. Lot's of knowledge in this video.
I've recently built my first wheel without a tension meter and was worried that the spoke tension will be uneven or too tight / too loose. I'm sure they are, but not so much that it matters. I've abused that wheel a lot and after a second tensioning when the spokes set, it stayed very very true. I used a second wheelset with similar spoke count and spoke length as "tightness" reference. By squeezing the spokes with your hand you can develop a feel for how tight they are.
If you are not a professional wheel builder, I agree, you don't need a tension meter to build a basic wheel. But if you want to build a performance wheelset with low spoke counts and or carbon rims, handing the wheel to a professional might be a wise decision. The wheel I built used some very thick flange track hubs and a mountain bike rim with 32 spokes. I'm sure that helped evening out some mistakes I made. Maybe I will get myself a tension meter for some upcoming, more advanced projects.
Greetings from Germany.
Thanks for watching and sharing your tensioning experiences and tips, polychromatism. You obviously enjoy wheel building so I think you will enjoy owning and using a tensiometer😀
You can also gage tension by plucking spokes (like a guitar string) and listening for their tone as explained in Jobst Brandt's book. He also recommends using another good wheel of similar design as a reference.
I built several wheels for myself, then later bought the Park tool when I started building more. I found that my tensions on my old wheels were acceptable and all within about 10%. I shoot for a 1/2 tone sharp or flat in music terms.
Mr Brandt recommends all spokes on a given side are within plus or minus 20% of the same tension, which to me seems like a lot. Of course you'll need a decent ear for tone to rely on this method.
Squeezing spokes is a decent reference as you bring a wheel up to tension. We often do it for stress relieving as we build, but it will never be a very accurate means of gaging tension. It's like saying you can accurately torque a bolt without a torque wrench.
Glad to see I'm not the only one that supports J&J buying bandages for my knuckle skinning habit :-).
I have a TM-1. Sometimes I need to measure a spoke a few times to get a reading that I'm confident in. Perhaps this is due to contact point friction or slight misalignment of the meter, and maybe this happens with high-end meters like the Fanatyk just as often. Have you found that a light coat of oil on the meter contacts improves repeatability?
Thanks for watching Chuck! My problem is that I never wore mechanics gloves my entire career so now even when I have plenty, I'm not in the habit of putting them on. I need to get better at that ;-)
You're asking a great question about the readings on spoke tensiometers. In the Wheel Fanatyk instructions, it's explained that it's not the tool, it's the spokes. They're usually not perfectly round and they're also not the same end to end.
With the digital gauge on the Wheel Fanatyk, when you put it on the spoke sometimes it reads zero but other times it doesn't. I have used two different Wheel Fanatyk tensiometers in our wheel shop and they both do this. When the tools are on spokes you can move them even just barely and the numbers will change showing that the spokes vary in diameter from spot to spot.
If the tool doesn't read zero, there's a zero button so you put the tool on the spoke, zero the tool and then take the reading.
If you don't want to zero the tool, you can instead slide it up and down the spokes a little and/or rotate it on the spoke slightly. By doing this you can often get the gauge to read zero and then take accurate readings.
So, you could try a little lube on your TM-1 but I don't know if it will change the reading. Hope this is helpful and thanks again for watching!
Hi Jim, I've become a big fan of your work in this channel. Based on many comments on many of your videos, I can tell a lot of your viewers might be interested in truing existing wheels as much, if not more, than on building them ourselves (at least for now). Given the similarities of the procedures, and how truing can be cheaper and less intimidating, would you consider making a video on truing a very damaged wheel? Apologies if you have such a video already. What interests me the most is the fine juggling of lateral trueness with spoke tension on, say, a rear wheel that has a flat(ish) spot (with corresponding poorly tensioned spokes) after being ridden over a pot hole. Maybe even use (if you so recommend {and/or explain why/when not to do so}) a "wheel rim height repair tool". Sorry for being so demanding and specific 🤪. Thanks in advance and I'll take a deeper look into your channel, maybe my request has been satisfied before. Cheers!
Thanks for supporting my channel, Carlos, really appreciate it! One thing to know is that almost all of my 25+ wheel videos have CZcams chapters. That means that you can easily jump to exactly what you want to watch by looking at the chapters (just click the SHOW MORE button under the description and they'll show up and on some videos they show up on the screen if you mouseover the red progress bar). To help you get there more quickly, here's where I explain the whole process of truing both side to side (wobble) and up and down (roundness). It's in my how to build wheels video: czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html
I go over everything so it's long but it does teach how to true and round wheels and shows the process to fix low/flat spots in wheels. Also, I have another video where I show fixing my friend's crashed carbon wheel here. This is a real time video taken as he held the camera and I did the repair. czcams.com/video/NyPGQrNfUFU/video.html
Now you specifically asked about wheels that might have run into a pot hole. That's a repair where you would start by checking the rim for bends or even worse, impact dents or real damage to the sidewalls of the rim. Most rims on quality bikes are aluminum and aluminum doesn't do well when you try to straighten it. You can try with bending tools and sometimes make it better and there are techniques for doing so, such a blocks of wood and a vise grip to sqeeze and press out dents, etc. You can make a simple tool out of a turnbuckle to push low spots up, too ). It has a curved wood block on each end, one rests on the hub, the other against the rim. You turn the turnbuckle and the wood block pushes up against the rim.
These types of tools are fun to make and use, but unfortunately the end result is not usually very good and can be a problem if you have rim brakes that need the rim to be near perfect. For disc brake bikes it's not such a big issue. So, as long the rim still looks safe to use and doesn't have failure point or a significant low spot that makes the wheel hop, then you might be able to keep using it. Always keep an eye on damaged rims, though, because they can get worse from riding and eventually fail if they're damaged badly enough.
As far a spoke tension goes on a damaged wheel, you can only get it as good as the rim will let you. With a non-damage caused low spot, if the spokes are tight at the low spot (what usually causes a low spot), you loosen the spokes in the area of the low spot and tighten the rest of the spokes, which will force the low spot up and doing this a few times you will usually get the low spot out and the wheel round again. But when a rim is actually bent, it won't always go round with this approach, though it's always worth a try.
Sometimes you can only get the rim so so, but if it's a good as you can get it, you might just have to ride it that way. Even if some spokes are looser than others if the wheel stays relatively true and the damage to the rim doesn't cause any issues with the ride or braking, even a damaged rim wheel with a few loose spokes can sometimes keep right on rolling. Hope this is helpful. Thanks again for the great comments and all the support!
@@JimLangley1 I genuinely appreciate your thorough reply 🙂. It might just be the case that I should ride more carefully... but I am planning on building a new (much sturdier) wheelset once I get my hands on proper tools (excuses for boy's toys). I shall be using your videos for that project. Thanks again and have great day!
@@KarlosEPM you're very welcome, Carlos, happy I could help!!
Thank you for your great videos. I'm about to build my second wheel by only following your instructions. I built my SON 28 dynamohub to commute to work and I love it. I brought it to the bike shop to ahve the final details, like spoke tension and hub centre to the rim. I did not do 100% of the wheel, but it was a big step for a first wheel build, thanks to you!
1. how do I center the hub to the rim without your big dishing tool? How crucial is it to perfectly center a hub to the rim?
2. what truing stand do you recommend? I might start building dyno hubs and alfine internal hubs into my parents bikes this summer if I have the time, but only home use and nothing professional. What do you think of the TS-8, single sided pointer?
3. theoretically, if both flanges of a hub is symmetrical, and the rim's nipple holes are center, one could blindly aim for the same tension in all spokes and get a perfectly true wheel?
4. Can I reuse spokes and nipples? Does fatigue cause spokes to snap?
5. what causes decrease of tension over time, is it resonance loosening the nipples? How often do I true a wheel?
6. Brass or aluminium or what else?
7. When do you put washers for nipples?
Thanks for watching and congratulations on building your first wheel following my How to Build Wheels the Easy Way video, Zer0, great job!! You ask a lot of important and fun wheel building questions. To find in depth answers please watch my other wheel building videos because in the videos and in my replies to reader comments you will find tons of information that answers all your questions and more. This link should open a playlist of all my wheel videos. czcams.com/play/PLVx8yqM75583n_qPUh92KqxxSu3jwhQiQ.html If you still have questions after watching let me know and enjoy the videos!!
Without a dishing tool, just flip the wheel over in your truing stand. The indicator finger will be the same distance from the rim, if it's flipped either way when the rim is finally centered between the
locknuts/end caps of the hub. A good dish tool isn't very expensive though.
I use a Park TS2 stand as I build lots of wheels. But the higher end stands only improve efficiency and speed. A single indicator stand would work fine and I appreciate Park's consumer level tools. Good stuff! I recommend something solid fairly heavy. Buy the best tools you can afford. They're a good investment.
I will only reuse spokes and nipples for wheels I use myself. Never for a paying customer. I need to KNOW the history of those spokes too.
Regarding nipples? I prefer brass for all my builds as brass makes a smoother stronger thread that holds up under higher tension. Wrench interfaces on Brass nipples are far less likely to round off as well. Such a wheel will last and be trued easier and for far longer. Alloy nipples just don't save much weight and aluminum threads are known to gall and corrode. I've seen alloy nipples corrode and scrap several wheels due to Stan's tubeless fluid and it's ammonia is. I will use alloy nipples if a customer insists. But, if they cause problems the customer always pays extra.
I always recommend double or triple butted j bend spokes, primarily for their strain relief characteristics and easiest procurement.
In a well designed, properly built wheel, proper and even tension should remain for the life of the wheel. I use linseed oil or Teflon pipe paste on my spoke threads. I avoid spoke prep except for the looser tension NDS side of highly dished wheels where the tension difference is quite large compared to drive side. Spoke prep makes twisting nipples more difficult as the wheel ages and specifically on thin gage or bladed spokes. This is assuming the wheel was designed correctly for the application it was intended, then ridden responsibly and practically. So many folks build their wheels way too light with too few spokes. It's not common sense. Flyweight wheels may be OK for a race day only sort of wheel. BUT not finishing a race or becoming stranded on a long ride because of mechanicals kinda sucks! If you're not racing, I believe reliability becomes a much higher priority. I offer free truing for the life of my custom wheels, but ONLY if I design them or I approve of the design that was asked for. FAR too many rich overweight riders have constant problems with ultralight equipment. But that's simply job security for my repair services!! Plenty of marketing BS impressed consumers ride on equipment that's simply unsafe for their uses!
Some rims require washers. They are sometimes used to help the nipples turn easier and to spread out the load on the rim so they don't crack around the holes. I personally avoid using such rims or washers in general. It makes lacing up a wheel far more tedious and time consuming. Dropping washers inside a rim becomes s big hassle to remove as well.
I hope I answered most of your questions. Ive run a small part time wheel building and repair service out of my garage for about 30 years. Wheel building and wheel repair is my favorite aspect of bicycle mechanics. I'm also a part time pro mechanic in a high end shop, a retired machinist and mechanical inspector.
I have both gages. (Well the park style one is a Venso) so far I have found the a good work flow is to use the Venso/park to keep my tension even from maybe 50 to %75 final tension. Then swap over to the Wheel Fanatic for final tension. That has helped me get my radial true dialed in a lot quicker. I do wish i got the digital gage though. Thanks for the videos they have filled in those small gaps that have helped me get to the next level
You're very welcome, Tim. Thanks for watching and for sharing how you use your tensiometers.
Why don't use use the Wheel Fanatyk for the whole job? From what I read, this is the only design of tension meter that works well at low tensions (so, early in the build process).
@@GenePavlovsky you lose track of how many times the dial goes around at very low tensions. The sheet metal one is better at that stage
@@timmallard5360 Isn't there a small turns indicator on the dial? All of my 0-10 mm indicators have this. I like dials, but I figured for this application digital might be handier, so I bought the Wheel Fanatyk in the digital version. I reckon you could just swap the indicator on yours with a suitable digital replacement? E.g. you could get the iGaging one that Wheel Fanatyk uses, they are quite affordable.
Jim, love your videos. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Have found much of your commentary very helpful. Wanted to ask something I’ve had difficulty finding an answer to; should we expect to put less tension on a 36h rim vs a 28hole rim? Should we expect less tension to be needed on a 26” wheel vs a 29”? Thanks again for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
You’re very welcome, Joseph, thank you for watching and the great comment. I should have explained in the video, but the optimum tension doesn’t change much with different size wheels and different spoke counts or lacing patterns. You still follow the rim maker’s spec if they provide a tension spec. And if you don’t have their spec, you tension to at least 90 kgf and up to 130. You only go by the tight sides, the cassette side rear and disc rotor side front. You use your judgment as you tension whether the wheel needs a little more or less tension. And if you’ve built with a certain rim before you learn what’s best. If you go for 110-120, you will have a good tight wheel. If it still seems a bit soft, go a bit tighter. I hope this is helpful and thanks again!
@@JimLangley1 Thanks again. 👍 On point. Youre the best.
@@josephr5902 appreciate it a lot, Joseph!
Jim not meant to pester but rather to enlighten, another hard to find wheel question; looking at some 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes at 167mm & wanting to take them down to 255/257mm range(threading my own spokes now). Do I need to worry about reducing the distance between the end of the threaded portion and the closest butted point on the spoke? Stock it’s currently 28.5mm. I would be taking 10-12mm of that distance away. Have heard the spoke is weakest near the top of the nip and don’t want to waste effort/$$ making an inferior wheelset. Thanks so much in advance for any insight.
@@josephr5902 thanks for watching and the great question, Joseph. Cutting down and threading those spokes should work fine. Spoke makers sometimes have really short butts on their racing/competition model spokes, like around 5mm. You'll be left with significantly more than that so as long as your cutter and threader does a nice job, you should be fine doing it. Thanks again and enjoy your wheel building!
Great video- exactly the info I was looking for! Thanks. Is there a calibration you need to do at all for the park tool tension meter? I'm thinking about getting a cheap knock off version for $30 ... (im just an amateur), not sure if they will be calibrated correctly... Im thinking I could always just use it to compare across spokes or use a good wheel as reference.
Thanks for watching, R! Happy to hear my video helped you out. Tensiometers should be calibrated at the factory. It’s not something the user does. And, you do periodically get tensiometers recalibrated depending on how heavily used and well cared for they are. I have not owned or used the knockoffs so I can’t comment on their calibration or quality. Maybe someone will comment about theirs.
You could certainly use a good wheel for reference. It just needs to have everything the same as the new wheel - same spoke material, gauge; same nipples; same # of spoke crosses, etc. etc. Please let me know how it goes if you do that and thanks again!
You could use a spoke with a known weight hanging off it to calibrate the tool.
I own two non-Park Tools tensionmeters, both came with charts. However I have never used the charts. Before I build a wheel, I calibrate the tensionmeter with the spokes which I will be using. I have made a simple test rig out of timber.
The j end of the spoke is threaded through a retaining hole fixed to the base of the rig. The threaded end of the spoke is passed through a cradle and the nipple is fitted. Above the cradle, is a screw eye and a digital weight gauge. The screw passes through the top timber member of the rig and a nut above this applies a vertical pull on the spoke. When the design tension of the spoke is reached, the tensionmeter tool is applied to the spoke and the reading on the tensiometer is the one for the design spoke tension.
This means that the tensionmeter is calibrated every time I use it - with the actual spoke to be used in the build.
Everything is clear. Is the size possible for a 20" wheel? Clamps, what is their length?
Thanks for watching and the question Igor. It depends on the parts used in the 20 inch wheel. You need about 4” in order to get the tool on spokes to take measurements. Hope this helps. And the thing is that 20” wheels usually have heavy-duty rims and short spokes so spoke tension isn’t as critical as it is on full size wheels, which have more flexible rims and long spokes.
Hello Jim! I am very glad to see your videos.
So if my wheel is wobbly the procedure looks like following:
1. I have to equal tension on all spokes.
2. When the tiighteening of spokes are the same, I can do cancel the wobbly of wheel then?
PS. During the alignment with the wheel, the tension of the spokes always changes, so the work is Sisyphean
Thanks for watching and the great question, Michal. Truing a wheel and getting the spokes tight enough is definitely a Sisyphean task - you do have to keep working on it until you get it right and the wheel is constantly changing. You do get better and faster at it with practice but some wheels can take a lot of work and time.
Truing a wheel making it straight (side to side) and round (up and down) almost never results in a wheel that has equal tension on all the spokes. What you are trying to do is end up with a true, round wheel with close to even tension on all the spokes - all within a close range.
What you do step by step usually is you true the wobbly wheel and get it as straight and as round as you can and then you check the tension. If you know that there are loose spokes or a broken spoke you would definitely start by tightening the loose spokes or replacing the broken spoke.
But, usually the truing comes first and then you check the tension. If you have a tensiometer tool you can use that. If you don't, then you can compare the feel of squeezing the spokes on your wheel with another wheel that you know is a good wheel - like a brand new one.
Since you asked about truing a wobbly wheel to align it, you might want to watch my video about wheel building where I explain the entire process from lacing to truing to tensioning. This video you watched is the final step and more about the tools than the process. You can watch my wheel building video here: czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html If you want to only watch the truing section go here: czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html?t=1585
I hope this is helpful. Please let me know if you have more questions. Thanks again for watching!
@@JimLangley1
Hello Jim!
Thanks a lor for your how comprehesive response and very usefull tips - everything is clear for my now!
Of course I have watched your video about wheel building already but with pleasure I done it again.
Yes, I have tensiometer which from one side help me to read a tension of spokes but from other side give me an awareness that my skills are not perfect so I still have to improve the tension to achieve perfect wheel.
Generally it is work without end and very important is set a limit for yourself : "what does mean perfect wheel"!
@@mutos82 thanks for asking another great wheel building question, Michal. A "perfect wheel" for most professional builders would meet these standards:
1. visually, the wheel would appear to have zero lateral or vertical runout (no side-to-side wobble or up/down hop or dip)
2. the rim would be perfectly centered ("dished" is the term we use) so that the wheel is perfectly centered when it's in the bicycle
3. the spokes would be at the optimal tension - sometimes specified by the rim maker or set by the builder from experience
4. a "perfect" wheel must stay true, round, centered and tight for whatever rider is using it for whatever conditions it's being ridden in
5. most builders I know pay close attention to small details they feel make an important difference, too - such as following recommended lacing patterns (Shimano disc wheel lacing for example - here's my video on this: czcams.com/video/gfWd7_avr1s/video.html ; and aligning hub labels, my video is here: czcams.com/video/8FiyUyJN7Uw/video.html and a clean wheel when done - no dust, grease, oil, fingerprints
The thing to keep in mind, though is that you don't always work with perfect rims. Sometimes you have a rim with a small imperfection at the seam (aluminum or steel rims). If it's the only rim you have to build the wheel with then all you can do is work with what you have. And in that case you will end up with a wheel that's not perfect, but you still try to get it as close as you can. And most builders will have a tolerance where they will refuse to build with a rim if they don't think they can get it as true, round and tight as they need to to meet their standard.
Building wheels is definitely a process that lends itself to fanatical or obsessive efforts to get wheels perfect. Some pro builder use dial indicators and strive to get wheels even more perfectly round and true than can be seen by the eye.
But that's definitely not. necessary unless it makes you happy to go to that extent and if so, then great.
Sorry for the long reply. This is an interesting topic and it's fun to talk about. I hope this is helpful and happy wheel building Michal!
Thanks for a good video.
I have a question: schould i check spoke tension only on the driveside on a back wheel, and on the disk side on a front wheel?
My wheel manufacturer only specifies spoke tension for driveside and disc side aswell.
I assume the reason is that if the wheel is centered the spokes of the other side get the right tension automically.
Am i right or have i got it all wrong?
You have it right, Martin😀Thanks a lot for watching!
Hi Jim. Do you know of a tension meter that will work with 20" wheels? I build mostly bmx race and freestyle 20" wheels. I have yet to find a tension meter that will fit into the space of that size of a wheel. Would you agree that if my spokes are tight and with the proper spoke length not exceeding past the nipple slot when tensioned, that proper tension is achieved? Thanks for all you do.
Thanks a lot for watching and the great question, cx4130! I only have one set of 20-inch wheels so I tried my Park tensiometer on those wheels. The front is radially laced (no spoke crosses) and the tool worked on that wheel. On the rear wheel, which is 3-cross, the tool just barely worked but I had to turn it sideways in order to get the lower peg on the tool to land on the edge of the spoke. There are 4 inches between the tool's 2 pegs that the spoke rests on so you need 4 inches of spoke in order to get the tool on it. The amount of spoke you have depends on the flange size of the hub and the cross pattern used, but I think the tool will not fit on too many combinations used for 20-inch wheels unfortunately.
I don't know for sure of another tensiometer that will work on 20-inch wheels. But if you could find one that requires less than 4 inches of spoke to get a measurement you'd have a tool that could work. There are lots of them on Amazon and they have a great return policy. So you might just bunch a few, try them out and return them if they don't fit.
On your second question, I would agree so long as your spokes really are tight. The proof of whether spokes are tight enough is that the wheel stays true and round and the spokes stay tight and don't loosen up when riding. So, if that wheel you build does that then your spokes are tight enough. The tricky thing with small wheels is that the spokes are so short they can feel tight when they're not tight enough. But, like I said, you would find out that was the case because the wheel would end up going out of true and the spokes would loosen as the wheel was ridden more. That would tell you to tighten them even more when you true and retension the wheel. I hope this is helpful and thanks again!
These tension meters are adequate even though the tension measured is perpendicular to the spoke end to end tension which cannot be measured once tensioned between the hub and the rim. Hence the need for the table.
Thanks for watching another video and commenting, Graydon. You make a great point. These tools measure how far the spokes move or deflect or bend as you get them tighter and tighter. Then the chart tells you what the tension is. The key thing for accuracy is correctly identifying the spokes in the wheel plus using a good tensiometer properly. These tools need to be recalibrated after enough use too. Thanks, Graydon!
I just bought a secondhand bike and when I got home and cleaned it, I noticed that the rear rim was cracked around a few of the spoke nipples. So when I buy some new wheels, I want to keep an eye on the tension and make sure it’s even.
Yes, that's an excellent use of a spoke tension meter gauguin. You can also pluck spokes like guitar strings and listen to their tone to judge for matching tension. One thing to know is that cracking around nipples may not be the fault of uneven spoke tension or even too high spoke tension, it can be the fault of a bad rim material. Some rims are brittle and those rims will crack even if you do everything right with the spoke tension. So be sure to get check the reviews on rims you buy to find out if anyone is talking about cracking issues.
@@JimLangley1 . Mavic krysium equipe on a Cannondale six 13. Maybe just age, and the bike is 60 cm, so perhaps a heavy rider.
@@gauguin007 that's a known issue for some riders with those rims gauguin. You can google "cracked Mavic Kyserium rims" and find quite a few threads. I've only had good luck with Mavic products/rims but I'm a pretty light rider.
Thanks alot for this man the wheel on my surron has some radial run out I can feel it just a small amount so i ordered a meter I hope it will help me fix it up. On a side note please start using some o'keeffe's working hands cream on those hands they look dry and sore. you will thank me later cheers .
You’re very welcome and thank you for the O’keeffe’s tip. I will give it a try. You don’t need a tensiometer to straighten/true wheels. All you need is a spoke wrench. In my how to build wheels video I provide complete instructions. Thanks again!
@@JimLangley1 my hands got real bad one time from braiding paracord dog leads . dry cracked and sore as heck I got that cream and it was amazing how well it worked. I'm gonna look up your other videos I just got the meter cause I don't wanna mess anything up I figure if I can check what the other spokes are at I can get the others close and hopefully get the wheel rolling smooth again . Cheers
@@electricexploring9518 here's the link to my how to build wheels video, Electric: czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html
I do appreciate the hand cream tip because my mechanic hands can get really bad as you've seen. Thanks a lot!
Jim. Why measure the gauge on each section on a butted spoke, when you only measure the tension on the thinnest section?are you establishing an overall average gauge thickness this way? In order to refer to the reference chart?
Thanks for another explanation video.
Richard
Great question, Richard, I should have explained that better in the video. You measure the spoke so you know what spoke type to reference on the chart. You might have 14/16 double butted or 14/17 etc. Each different size will have a different tension. The tool will show for example 20 but the actual tension will be different on every different size spoke. So measuring is important. Hope this explains and thanks for watching and commenting!!
Jim. I'm revisiting your great video. Maybe I'm being too anal?
Should the gauge of a double butted or bladed spoke gauge be based on which gauge reference value fir the spoke?
Do you tighten all the spokes one side of the wheel first, then do the other side or do tighten both sides equally switching from one side to the other one spoke at a time?
Thanks for watching and the question Deltafour. It's up to you how you tension wheels - you develop your own preference based on the components you're working with as you build more and more wheels. I usually tension wheels one spoke at a time going around the wheel starting at the valve hole and turning each nipple 1/2 turn at a time to add a little tension. Then I check true and round and center and continue tensioning. Depending on how the wheel feels I'll stress relieve the wheel in between adding layers of tension like this.
Another way to do it that's handy on rear wheels with a lot of dish (rim far to the drive side), is to get the wheel true, round and to about 3/4 tension using ONLY the drive side spokes. This can speed up tensioning since you're only working with half the spokes. And it can make it easier to get the wheel to full tension since the spokes on the left have almost no tension so you're not "fighting" that side as you tighten the drive/right side more and more. Once the drive side spokes are 3/4 tension, you then finish the tensioning by adding the tension to the left side spokes, which increases the tension on the drive side spokes too.
My friend Ric Hjertberg of WheelFanatyk has a great article about this method here: wheelfanatyk.com/blogs/blog/wheel-building-tip-no-6-build-rears-from-right-to-left?_pos=2&_psq=drive%20side%20tension&_ss=e&_v=1.0 I hope this is helpful, thanks again!
Great videos Jim. My question is if you don't know the rim's recommended tension, how can you calculate each spoke's correct tension? Thanks.
Thanks for watching and the great question. Rim makers specifying tension is a relatively new trend and still not all makers do it. So wheel builders have to learn and tension to a range they know works. That range is from a minimum of 90 to a max of 130. So we go for a final tension in that range and consider the feel of the tension as we finish wheels along with what the tension meter tells us. I hope this helps.
@@JimLangley1 Thanks Jim, I don't understand how to use that to calculate the individual tension of each spoke.
@@100sky3 you only measure the tighter side: right rear and left front for disc brake wheels. Either side for rim brake fronts. You’re looking for about the same tension on all those spokes. They will vary a little cause spokes and rims vary but the tensions should be close. Shoot for 100. Hope this answers but lat me know if you need more info.
If you buy the Park tensionometer, a chart is included that translates Nm to the scale on the tool. Different spoke thickness and types of spokes will deflect the tensionometer differently so the chart does this calculation for you. Similar info is probably available online. Most good quality rim manufacturers provide recommended tension now, but on older rims built from older alloys I'd stay at 90-100 max.
@@rollinrat4850 Thanks.
Hi Jim, very useful video! One question. I just built a wheel and it's perfectly trued, but tension is not equal. I tried to equal the tension but now it's not very straight. Is it normal? Thanks in advance! Cheers from Germany =D
Thanks for watching and congrats on building your wheel, nice to hear from you in Germany! Yes that's completely normal. It's great that you're trying to equal the tension in the wheel because the more even it is the better the wheel. But the thing is that because of differences in spokes and rims you rarely find a perfect wheel where every spoke on each side will be almost exactly the same tension. Instead you end up with a few spokes at a lower tension and higher tension. They have to be this way usually in order to make the wheel perfectly true (side to side) and round (up and down).
As a wheel builder what you do is try to even the tension out as much as you can and you always have to go back and true and round it after you do that because as you add tension to the "loose" spokes and loosen the "tight" spokes it knocks the wheel out of true (quotes around loose and tight because they're not really loose or tight, they're just a slightly lower or higher tension). Usually as you repeat the process it knocks it out of true less and less. And that shows that the wheel is getting better.
My friends at Park Tool make a really nice tension meter and with it you can use their app for analyzing and balancing wheel tension. You might enjoy watching this video of theirs that shows Calvin going through the process. czcams.com/video/mb32h4PK_aU/video.html Hope this is helpful and enjoy riding your new wheel!
@@JimLangley1 I couldn't have gotten a better reply than this one! Thank you very much! =)
@@someone-somewhere my pleasure 😊
I think every frequent rider coulb benefit even from a budget tensionometer. How much does a tune up at a LBS cost? After a few wheels, you could have bought yourr own. Your ROI comes quick.
Thanks a lot for watching and for sharing your take on spoke tensiometers MrAudioBill, appreciate it very much.
what is the average time a bike shop should take in cutting, installing and truing a wheelset
Thanks for watching and the question Roman. Most bike shop mechanics can build one wheel in about an hour as long as they have the hub, rim and correct length spokes on hand. For two wheels (a wheelset) it would take about 2 hours. That's on average. There are wheel builders with a ton of experience who can build a very nice wheel faster. If you have to cut spokes to length, which takes a special tool - that adds time. (I prefer to use only boxed spokes, not cut spokes.) If you are installing new rims and spokes on a set of old wheels that the rims got ruined on, so you're using the old hubs, then you have to start by taking the old wheels apart and that adds time, sometimes a lot of time if you have to overhaul the hubs or clean the cassette, etc. But, the basic answer for building one wheel when you have the parts ready to go is about an hour. Hope this answers your question. Happy to explain more too. Thanks again and happy wheel building!
@@JimLangley1 thank you
Can you Loosen and Tighten spokes with a deflated tire on or does the tire have to be removed to do this.???
Thanks for watching and the question. The risk of loosening and tightening spokes with the tire and tube on is that you can’t see if anything is wrong with the rim tape, tube and tire setup. If there is a hole in the tape for example turning the spoke nipple could cause it or the tip of the spoke to puncture the tube. But, if you know that the rim tape is perfect and there are no spokes that can protrude and pop the tube then it’s fine to loosen and tighten spokes with the tire and tube on. If you’re not sure it’s best to remove the tire and tube and check. Most modern rims put the nipples and spokes down inside the rim where they are less likely to cause flats. And with tubeless setups there’s no tube to worry about though you still don’t want to risk putting a hole in the rim tape cause that can let the sealant out. Hope this helps.
@@JimLangley1 Thanks, that does help.
@@marblox9300 you’re very welcome!
Just wanted to check is 120kgf or below enough on 28h 700c wheelset for 120kg only ride on road (I am searching for tubular alloy rim to support 120kg so I can ride it at my heavy weight still even if get back to it but enjoy it when 85kg)
Yes I seem others you said 90-120 I just wanted to be sure
Looking at:
VELOCITY MAJOR TOM MSW BLACK 700C REAR RIM (mainly as saw Kinlin TB25 is 105kg max)
Berd spokes
DT SWISS Hub 240 Straight pull Rear CenterLock 28H
Thanks for watching and the question. For a 120 kg rider I would recommend going with more spokes than 28, at least 32. And I would go on the high side of that tension range so that the spokes would stay tight... Berd "string" spokes are interesting to build with, have fun. I have a video showing how it's done czcams.com/video/opqBFX8GrQg/video.html
Pluck the wire, it sings a frequency...
Thanks for watching and the comment, Solarize. Yes you can pluck and listen to the music each spoke makes to judge how tight they are, though you do need an experienced ear to know that the spokes are tight enough. Here's a tool for plucking spokes and a little more about this technique: wheelfanatyk.com/products/fred-kelly-freedom-picks?_pos=1&_sid=7bbc4bb20&_ss=r
Guys, why is the tension on one side more than on other side? Cant it just be the same number? Thx for answer
Thanks for watching and the question, G. The tension will be different on the sides of the wheel when the hub is not centered over the axle, such as on rear wheels with cogs on the right side and on most disc brake wheels that have a provision for rotors on the left side. Since the hub isn't centered the spokes aren't either meaning usually that one side's spokes are shorter and tighter than the other. Spokes aren't always different tension, it depends on the design of the hub, but with most standard rear wheels and disc brake wheels, it's usually the case. Hope this answers your question. On most rim brake front wheels both sides of the wheel will usually have the same tension.
@@JimLangley1 The hub measured at the outermost point of the axle is centered relative to the rim. It is the hub flanges that are not equidistant from the axle ends. I am ignoring a few exceptions to the rule like some of the early fat bikes that had offset rear dropouts.
What should be the tension readings be on the left/loose side of the rear wheel? And should the tension be 120kgf on both sides of the front wheel?
Thanks for watching and the question. You don't concern yourself with the left side rear spokes. All that matters is to get the right side rears to the recommended tension. The left/looser spokes will just be what they end up being. For the front, if it's a disc brake wheel, the disc side will be the tighter side so you would check that side (the left side) just like you checked the right side on the rear and not worry about the right side (looser spokes). But, if it's a rim brake wheel, then yes both sides will have matching tension. Okay? I hope this helps.
@@JimLangley1 yes this helps, thank you. I'm assuming the looser side would still have reasonable tension tho 90-110 kgf?
@@NoQualmsTheArtist the balance of tension between the tighter and looser side depends on the design of the wheel, i.e. the hub and rim used and even the spoke pattern and spokes used. Sometimes the looser spokes are much looser, sometimes it's very close, even the same on both sides. If you were to check the left side and find them looser than you think they ought to be you can tighten them but of course that means tightening the right side too - or else you'll move the rim off center. And if you decide to tighten all the spokes in order to get the lefts tighter you wouldn't want to exceed the highest tension specified by the rim maker. If their high tension number is 120, you might go a touch tighter to add a little more tension to the left spokes but you wouldn't want to risk damaging the rim by going a lot tighter.
@@JimLangley1 thanks, makes sense 👍🏾
I was thinking more about your questions NoQualms and thought you might be interested in delving into options for checking spoke tension on wheels even more. I think you might enjoy reading my friend Calvin Jones of Park Tool's article on tension balancing using the Park Tool TM-1 tension meter and their online tools for charting the spoke tension of all the spokes in the wheel. It's a fun way to learn more about tension and how it all works. Here's a link in case it interests you: www.parktool.com/en-us/blog/calvins-corner/wheel-tension-balance-web-app
Hey there,
WF tensiometer style need to be reset within each measure,
that's the "plus" with this design, spoke isn't straight, before measure a deflection, you have to reset .
With other tensiometer style(Dt/Sapim/paktool) you can't do this,
If you have 0.03 or 0.04 deflection between 2 contact and measurement point, you read 10 or 20 kgf more or less😉
Thanks for watching and for making this excellent point about the difference in tensio meters, Guillaume. Working with the Wheel Fanatyk for hundreds of wheels, I have found that if you move the tool on the spoke up, down, slightly around, you can often zero it without resetting it. I think the discrepancy is from spokes not being perfectly round. Thanks again for the great feedback, appreciated it!!
@@JimLangley1 yep, it's another solution,
I'm using chinese DT style tensio and Filip Kralyevski tensio ( same as WF / FSA and in reality a Jobst Brandt design)
The capacity to measure the real deflection with this design is a decisive point.
Even centrimaster or hozan tensiometer can't do this.
Had to tighten my clicking spokes, now it's a bit wobbly! And I cannot true it now! Just got a tension toil, will this help me true it? I can't seem to figure out how to true it now
Hi Joel. The spoke tension tool is a nice tool to have for checking tension but it won't help that much for truing wheels and removing wobbles because the tension in most wheels varies a little from spoke to spoke. The best way to fix the wobbles is by truing the wheel by eye. You can do that in a bike frame or in a truing stand, the process is the same just when truing in a bike frame you'll use your thumb as a reference to see the wobbles. This link will take you to the start of my instructions for truing wheels: czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html Happy to help if you have any questions.
@JimLangley1 thank you very much for the information
@@JHOFF111 my pleasure Joel.
Hi. Great video. Thanks!
Before spending 90 € / $ for the Park Tool I would be happy to know your judgment about the precision of the tool. Are the results (kgf) reliable?
Did you possibly double checked the results with another tool?
Thanks a lot and Greetings from a fan in Germany
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed the video! Yes, Park Tool’s tension meter is a quality tool that gives accurate and reliable results and they provide full support for their tools too - even an online app for balancing tension in wheels. And yes I have verified the Park tool with others like Wheel Fanatyk’s and it gives the same readings. I think you’ll enjoy using one. Hope this helps and happy wheel building!
@@JimLangley1 Excellent. Thank you very much!
@@007mat you’re very welcome!
If you want reliable kgf results, build a tension meter calibration jig/stand and make your own conversion chart for the exact type of spoke that you use. You can build this yourself.
@@GenePavlovsky Hi. Thx.
At the end of the day this was exactly what I did 😅.
Build a frame with a hanging scale and noted the results of the tool of the tension I was aiming for. It works.
thanks for sharing, but the question is what if i dont have a tensiometer? how to know how tight should be? thanks
Thanks for watching and the question. I explain at the end of my How to Build Bicycle Wheels video here: czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html Hope this helps and I'm happy to explain more if you have questions.
@@JimLangley1 thanks. I just found in another video a way to measure the tension by sound. There is correlation between the tension and the length of the spoke and give you a frequency that can br used to 'tune' the spokes. I'm sure you know about it
@@Gledii yes, I do know about the technique (I haven't seen that video you mention). Plucking and listening to the spokes can work fine, especially if you have a good "ear" for music (not everyone does). Wheel Fanatyk actually sells a guitar pick for plucking spokes like guitar strings so that you get the best sound out of them and there's an explanation on use on the page: wheelfanatyk.com/products/fred-kelly-freedom-picks?_pos=1&_sid=02f94e02b&_ss=r
@@JimLangley1 Jim, just another point: after having the spokes adjusted on the drive side (rear), in order to have the wheel perfectly centered, the spokes on the other side seems quite loose (about 50 kgf vs 120 kgf on the drive). is this "normal"? thanks a lot
@@Gledii hi Gledison. On most rear wheels the spokes on the non-drive side are always looser than the rights (drive side) due to the dish/centering of the rim over the axle which offsets the rim to the drive side. So basically, it's just the way it is with rear wheels. But, when you build wheels you want to try to get the non drive spokes to where you feel they are tight enough to stay tight so that those non-drive side spokes don't loosen when you're riding.
On your wheel it sounds to me like the lefts sides are too loose. The way to fix it is to tighten all the spokes. Your drive sides are at 120 and as long as the rim maker did not specifically say not to exceed 120 (often you can go up to 130), then you can tighten both sides. That will increase the tension on the drive and non-drive side and if you can get those non-drive spokes tighter it will help the overall strength of the wheel and help ensure those spokes stay tight. Okay? I hope this helps.
If you could only have 1 , which would it be and why ?
Thanks for watching- if you’re on a budget, buy Park Tool’s. If you can spend more go with the digital Wheel Fanatyk. Both are for use with all spoke brands types. Both come with great documentation for understanding and use like Park’s tension mapping. The digital WF is a bit easier to read - vernier gauge vs digital reading. Hope this helps. You can study up on both tools on the websites to fully understand all features and extras - that’s the best way to decide. My favorite is the WF.
I really would like to build wheels as a pro. Do you know of any course or something??
Thanks for watching Jose. I don't know if you're already building wheels or asking for a course to learn wheel building so I'll give you several ideas. If you want to learn, my video on wheel building for new builders has taught thousands of people how to build wheels and it would teach you too. Here's the link if you'd like to watch it: czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html
I have lots more videos on wheel building topics that you can learn the basic of wheels from too. The best book to read on the subject is by my late friend Jobst Brandt called The Bicycle Wheel. You can download a pdf of the book or read it online here: www.dropbox.com/s/mbsx865uzz0s7jq/Bicycle_Wheel_-_Jobst_Brandt.pdf?dl=0
If you live in the USA, there's a good wheel building class you could take at the United Bicycle Institute in Ashland, Oregon bikeschool.com
Summing up, I have taught many many people how to build wheels and the most important thing is having the desire to learn and some patience and attention to detail. It's a very enjoyable skill and a great job you'll be proud of having. I worked as a pro wheel builder in a wheel company for six years and looked forward to going to work every day. I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have other questions.
I appreciate the time you took to answer my question. I have built some wheels for my bike but I really enjoy working on them and the most complicated part for me is building and truing wheels. But I want to learn how to do it so they are built as perfect as possible. I will take a look to that pdf. Unfortunately I'm not in the USA. Thanks a lot
@@JoseLFerca you're welcome. I think you'll enjoy Ric Hjertberg's wheel writings too. Visit wheelfanatyk.com and read his blog posts all about many aspects of wheel building - when it comes to wheels and wheel building he's done it all and freely shares his vast knowledge.
What truing stand you recommend to improve my skills
@@JoseLFerca thanks for asking. Since you would like to build many wheels I would recommend a Park Tool truing stand amzn.to/3SgziET They’re easy to use and will last a lifetime. Hope this helps.
I just tap the spokes and listen for a certain noise. 😂
That works as long as you have a good ear for music. Wheel Fanatyk even sells a guitar pick for plucking spokes to listen to their music. Thanks a lot for watching and commenting!
Park now has an web-based tool that can be accessed instead of using the chart. The user provides various inputs and it spits out the results.
Thanks for watching and the comment, Don, appreciate it. Yes, I put a link in the description to Park Tool's great app. Here it is: www.parktool.com/en-us/blog/repair-help/wheel-tension-balance-app-instructions
@@JimLangley1 Love your vids. Not a wheel builder, but I'm a bigger guy (6' 1", 225) who has to order "boutique" wheels - Boyds and Williams - and true them up with some regularity. Watching your videos on HOW to build them in the first place, as well as how to true them, has helped immensely. I used to buy Mavic wheels (before learning they're targeted at 175 lb. riders - nothing wrong with that - and finding cracks in the rims after a few hundred miles).
@@donkeninitz4590 I’m happy to hear my videos are helpful and that you’ve found some wheels that hold up, Don. I’ve only heard great things about Boyd wheels and they are a family business so should be helpful if you ever need support. Thanks a lot for watching my videos!
Parktool still doesn't tell you the ideal tension to set them to though
@@janeblogs324 Hi Jane, Park Tool is a tool company, they don't make rims or wheels or spokes. The recommended tension ranges for wheels is something that you get from the rim manufacturer. So when you're building wheels you either look at the spec sheet with the rim or contact the company that made the rim or visit their website to find out what they recommend for tension. Hope this helps you out. In most cases, the range will be from a minimum of 90 kgf to 130 kgf depending on the rim design and materials and purpose.
In the words of Porky Pig: "Ah thee- Ah thee- Ah - that's all, spokes..."🤭
🤣 thanks for the laugh Eleanor - never underestimate the wisdom of Porky 🐷
What I never thought about with these tools is that the spring force seems like a potentially large variable.
In Canada the fancy DT Swiss tension meter was closer to $600-900, I always went my sound 🤣
Thanks for watching and commenting Adam. I can tell you that in the wheel shop we would compare readings between same Wheel Fanatic tools and they would not vary much at all. We never felt we would gain anything with the more costly tools. Park’s also gave consistent readings taken on lots of wheel builds and it’s quite affordable. Thanks again.
NO... tensioner meter is NOT needed... IF--> you hear well enough to detect difference in sound.. OR... can feel tension via your hands by grabbing pairs spokes around wheel.
GET wheel round and dished correctly... then add/subtract tension side to side-->meaning side pulling stronger/off tension loosened then tension added to adjoining side. Stress relieve often on floor lateral tension onto axle end caps... increasing as full tension approaches.
Finding final tension.. assuming equal spoke count ea side rear.. NDS w todays "over geared" bikes tend to low tension... as low as 45% of DS.. in some cases lower. Rim/spoke combo comes into play.. what that model of rim will handle for peak tension. Super tight is not ideal.. rim gets a challenge to done.
2 basic reasons for finishing tru/build w tire on inflated to your desired tension---> high psi means spoke compression subsequent lower overall spoke tension.. -->rear wheel dish changes to the stronger DS.. albeit usually a minor %... but can exceed .10".
Do I own a tension tool.. yes. Does an infrequent builder need one... NO... not by miles.
Thanks a lot for watching and the awesome comment winterrider, appreciate it 🙏❤️
More importantly, parallel spokes.
I can't balance the tension. Tool is useless. Everytime i change one spoke the entire wheels tension changes
Thanks for watching and the comment, Mark. "Balancing" the tension is done by truing the wheel. Once it's straight side to side and round (no hops or dips/high spots or low spots), you have balanced the tension. So, if you say you can't balance the tension, it's just a matter of practicing truing so that you can. In this video I go in depth on how to true wheels. It's a long video. You can use the timecodes to jump around to the parts you want to watch: czcams.com/video/XUqul03hbZ8/video.html The key thing when truing wheels is to focus on what you're doing and do not rush. It takes time and patience to get a wheel nice and true and round. Hope this helps.
@@JimLangley1 huh. I guess that makes sense doesn't it? equal spoke tension means the wheel is a perfect circle. Im having a TON of difficulty with radial truing however. Ive tried 4 different wheels. Its almost impossible to get right
@@mark38699 if a rim got crashed it could have gotten actually bent and if the bends are bad enough then you won't be able to get rid of them with the spoke adjustments. But, as long as you are working with a good rim that's not been hit or crashed, etc. then radial truing is usually possible and not that hard to do (radial truing is also called round or simply up and down truing versus side to side). To do it, you basically loosen the spokes in the low spots slightly first. Once you've done that, when you tighten the spokes in the high spots, that will pull the rim down at the high spots and because you loosened the spokes in the low spots, as the rim gets pulled down it is forced to move somewhere and it will move up at the spots you loosened the spokes. You go with very slight adjustments at first, like a half turn of the nipples. Very gradually the wheel will change. Keep in mind that you are working with arcs. Arcs have a high point and less high points as you get to the edges of the arc. So, you would tighten the high point more and on either side of the arc you tighten those a little less. This makes sense if you think of how each spoke on the arc is pulling down on that point trying to get the high point in the rim to come down to meet the rest of the rim. When you're learning it's easiest to work on one low spot and one high spot at a time and then move on to the next one. You might want to mark the rim at those points so you can keep track of what you're working on. It's actually a fun part of truing and very satisfying when the wheel becomes nice and round. It'll take time to get a wheel near perfect but it's always worth it in satisfaction. Hope this helps. Have fun!
@@JimLangley1 ok good to know. Just hope no one steals my tires or vandalizes my bike after all this hard work
@@mark38699 I hope so, too!
I prefer to buy a house, instead of a Mitutoyo tool. So, thanks, but no, some chinese tool will also work.
no
Thanks for watching and commenting.