Oversteer recovery - how to save your car!
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- čas přidán 1. 05. 2021
- #oversteer #skidrecovery #tractioncircle #liftoffoversteer
Not being able to effectively detect and correct oversteer is what is most likely to see your vehicle on the back of a truck at a motorsport event. So, watch this video to understand exactly what oversteer is, how the car dynamics work, the different ways oversteer can be initiated, and how to correct it...and what NOT to do. All with real-life examples!
Post questions as comments!
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It is good to watch Saudi drifting; there are good examples of how to control steering.
This should be part of the driving test, for getting your drivers license in the United States!
Literally all cars before the 60’s or so, we’re RWD, the fact that we don’t learn how to save a car from over steer is sad.
@@1000roentgens it’s not just sad, it’s INSANE!!!! Like you said, it’s more of a problem with rear wheel drive cars, but of course it happens with all cars. front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, or all wheel drive. there are so many accidents that could be avoided. I remember when I got my drivers license many many many years ago I did the driving test and it was over very quick!! I don’t know if the instructor could just tell I knew what I was doing, or if they did that with everyone, but it was disturbing. I mean I had been racing go karts, and quads/ATVs, since I was a little boy. Which was way harder than driving on the street, (legally) but it still blew my mind! I see so many people out on the road that it’s obvious that they can’t drive to save their life. I just can’t wrap my head around it. 🤷♂️
For Mustang owners 😂
No one dose
@@Eddie2425 first thing i did after i got my license was think i was a racecar driver. second thing i did was practice sliding in the snow lol. im glad tho, the little bit of experience saved me a couple times before i realized my favorite road wasnt a racetrack
I have a charger, so this was a pretty informative video for me. I've had 2 moments so far where the car snapped out on me unintentionally, but fortunately I was able to recover both times. Cheers!
Glad it helped, please share, and tell us about those times so we can all learn!
@@L2SFBC I'd say the first time was on a cold, slightly damp morning (being from Los Angeles means that the roads get slick with oil when the roads are wet) and with approx 30% throttle on a 90 degree turn my car decided to kick the tail out for a moment, but me counter steering allowed me to recover and stay in my lane.
The second time was entirely my fault. It was raining hard for the first time in a long time, and I did a burn out at a stop sign. Was all good and fun, but I may have over corrected once it started to yaw, and it suddenly and violently started to snap side to side, so I quickly got off the gas pedal and let the car settle down. I then decided to go home lol.
These both happened with very old and cracked winter tires, I've just swapped them out for new tires.
Thank you for listening to my silly stories.
That's great! I have a video on to tell the age of tyres too! Glad you got it under control.
@@L2SFBC i plan on watching more of your videos when I have the time. Thank you
Do you drive the charger during the winter as well? How does that go if so
This is by far the most informative and easy but detailed explanation I've seen on oversteer and how to manage it. Love the easy-to-grasp theory with power vectors and circles. Thank you!
Glad you liked it! Would appreciate a share.
@@L2SFBC It's forwarded to a couple of friends - mandatory viewing ;-)
Thank you!
My first driving experiences were with old holdens and fords and they were wonderful training ground. Losing the vehicle in a manner of ways occurred easily and at relatively low speeds so it was much safer than the more modern cars that can easily take corners at much higher speeds and accelerate harder than these older vehicles. Through the video I recognised the skills and the situations you showed and my internal responses are so ingrained and that experience has paid off in ordinary driving situations when things come unstuck. I loved the in-car shots too....perhaps more of that in the future Robert?
Thanks Benny. Yes some people learn like you did and others never have the chance. But it's so important for motorsports people even in FWD cars. Very pleased to hear this helped explain what you already knew !
@@L2SFBC Yes, exactly...so I really got what you were saying.
I want to drive those cars where you it isn't that difficult to crash. I really love driving and I want to be able to handle whatever is thrown at me.
Thank you master, now onto practice ( in assetto corsa ), ive lost so many positions becuase im not that good at oversteer recovery, the snap is my biggest issue
I think the hardest thing is staying calm. Any time i've done sketchy driving I was at least half prepared for something to go wrong and ready to act. I've only had 1 major spin out and it was because it caught me off guard so bad. My own fault of course but I hadn't considered how bald my tires were by this point and I went into the corner at a speed slower than normal and it just went. The snapback was super violent and i panic hit the brakes then from there its just sorta a blur until I stopped. Very luckily it was a flat field and the only damage was a rock slicing my tire open!
An excellent point. And how do you stay calm? You normalise the situation. Then you have spare brainpower to deal with it properly, and also your reactions are instinctive.
That big tip at the end is a great one! Thanks Robert!
Thanks...has been proven to work and the traction circle makes sense of it!
I was on a longer drive and I was quite tired. I lost focus and drifted off the road to the right. Immediately corrected, and of course started snapping back and forth due to overcorrection and entered a spin. I ended up doing a full 360 and ended up perfectly straight on the road. This was a two lane interstate road with guardrails on both sides during rush hour. I was fortunate that there were no cars near me and that I stayed on the road. I'd like to think I was the reason the car did, but frankly I'm not sure what I did because everything was automatic, so I've been trying to learn exactly what can happen and how to respond lol.
Wow...could speculate but happy you lived to comment +
Finally a proper educational video out there. Thank you.
Thanks! It was just today someone bought me a coffee after watching this :-)
my honda ep3 has 1° toe in on the rear which has stopped the snap oversteer, my hands always at 9&3, lots of sim driving has helped immensly
This is a wonderfully instructive video.
Thank you, I'm so glad it helped. Please share :-)
Great video! I appreciate the visuals and video examples. Thanks! 👍
My pleasure! Please share 👍
Robert, My learning came from gravel roads and snow/ice in rear engine (VW) vehicles. The switch to fwd (early Subaru) in snow especially was daunting until I learned about left foot braking to induce oversteer and then use acceleration to pull out of the slide. Current ride (VW Golf) has a center mounted emergency brake to start the slide in snow and gravel. Wife hates me for that.
Maybe warn her in advance? 😁😁
Yes this video is about recovering from unintentional skids not initiating. I may do another on initiating.
This is incredibly valuable, even as someone who has done this before- the in depth explanation, the depiction of the force vectors, the representation of the coefficients of friction and of weight distribution across varying considerations is very helpful in showing mechanism and hence bettering my/our understanding of how to act and react best. Thank you very much for sharing such a thoughtful lecture!
Thanks, please share! Theory = understanding and that makes your practical training much, much more effective as you understand why and how, not just blindly 'doing' even if you get the result at the time.
Great video. I was playing around with this in an empty parking lot earlier today before watching this video. I actually spun out and applied the brakes until the car stopped (although I think I spun because I applied the brakes). I didn't slide around as much as i wanted, but I think that's because most of the time I just tried to give it full throttle from a stop while turning. Of course, space is a little limited in an empty parking lot. It definitely was good experience for me because it helped me to be able to recognize when the back end is about to slide out. Definitely something I want to practice more. This was done in a 2015 genesis sedan, which is rwd fyi. Most of it was power oversteer, but I think when I spun it was braking oversteer.
Thank you please share so others maybe learn and not crash 😊
You may also have an open diff in that car. In which case spin the wheels in a straight line then immediately turn. Maybe that works better.
People watch other videos like this that don't explain braking and we have this myth that you should never brake in a slide, on the streets that is just dangerous, the issue is people have with no experience have no idea when they have lost control and/or they think you shouldn't brake, not to mention it takes a lot of practice to recover a slide which most people are never going to do.
Did you miss the bit where I covered use of brakes?
@@L2SFBC I meant other videos like this that don't explain it, I know this one does.
Cool thanks!
Great video Robert. Really enjoyed you explanations, but your summary is 100% - Practice!
Thanks Max would appreciate a share 👍
Done! Just another question if I may Robert, I do track days in a rear engined car and am interested in learning and how to practice getting out of oversteer situations (have spun out a few times all without damage and following your ‘hard brake’ advice. A skid pan exercise would be great, but where do you recommend this could be done and with who? I am located in Melbourne Victoria.
Go see Drift Cadet or Evolve Driving and say I sent you :-) Sutton Road in Canberra is also excellent, see this -> czcams.com/video/SknzaP0mtpU/video.html and also check out my Track Mistakes series which covers some mid-rear engined oversteer situations, and another to come!
Thanks
Easiest way to practice steering techniques (fwd or rwd or awd) is after a good snowstorm. You can simulate race dynamics at much slower speeds, and induce oversteer quite easily. Dirt roads are good too.
Agreed re snow, somewhat difficult in Australia, and dirt roads don't generally give enough space to allow mistakes.
When I was learning how to drive I remember being tired before a lesson then the lesson ended up being 1 and a 1/2 hours of parallel parking then driving home. On the way out the car park I was at a t junction where the left was close to an acute angle and the right was very loose. I'm in a fwd diesel following a suv that's going right matching it's speed but I didn't clock the signal. As it turns right I realise I'm fucked, I look out into the left hand turn and can see my front right wheel going maybe a foot or two into the oncoming lane and where I'd be able to exit there's a car fast approaching. For some reason something took over and I completely dropped the revs to zero, downshifted to 2nd, while downshifting countersteered, and as the power from downshifting came on straightened out. Now understanding cars as I do now I realise I could've actually rear ended the car I was trying to avoid is funny AF. The G forces were so high my instructor came out of their seat, shifted right and had I kept in third, would've landed on top of the gear stick.
Just a small correction, but the axle with more mass over it has more inertia, and thus less grip due to load sensitivity effects. Load sensitivity effects will result in effectively decreased grip for an identical tire on a heavier axle, because force potential doesn't rise linearly with load but inertia does.
The exception is longitudinally, where the axle gets the benefit of increased load, but there's no specific per-axle inertia, as the force is aligned with both axles.
How this matters depends on the situation (entry, steady state, exit), car setup (understeery, less understeery, god forbid oversteery) and drivetrain.
A FWD car with 60% front load would understeer in steady state, but oversteer easier in entry under brakes, for example.
I also think you should *always* be accelerating out of oversteer in all drivetrain type cars; failing to do so will result in a snap-back towards the outside if the rear grips up, which is very common. It's typically safer to spin out towards the inside by overdoing it, and it's easier to control grip when it's in the linear region of the slope after peak rather than oscillating between under and over peak. Of course, if the power is excessive, throttle needs to be decreased to some baseline unless you're okay with killing the tires.
Interesting points, can you expand on load sensitivity please?
@@L2SFBC Pneumatic, and I would imagine solid, rubber tires lose "friction" when they are loaded. The effect is more intense for more adhesive tires at low loads (Friction reaches infinite~ at 0 load for adhesive tires), but generally it follows a pretty linear slope. Not entirely, but it's not a bad approximation.
They don't lose *grip*, you'll still get more *force* out of them, but at a decreasing rate. The tires become less effective relative to the load that's on them. Adding mass increases inertia (unlike downforce) so you end up with a net-loss in acceleration potential.
So the relationship could be something like:
1.30 Mu at 0N Fz
1.19 Mu at 3000N Fz
1.08 Mu at 6000N Fz
With typically a decreasing slope with tires that have a larger contact patch surface area, although it's construction and compound dependent as everything.
EDIT: And of course, longitudinal acceleration potential is also diminished by higher mass (= inertia) but it can still be beneficial to load the driven wheels more than the undriven wheels for higher practical acceleration potential, as total inertia is still unchanged, only the split between F/R changed.
Thanks for your explanation; today I tried straight line acceleration on a CT5Blackwing Manual by applying full throttle . I can certainly feel the back of the car started to swing. As soon as that happened, i just lift the throttle. Does this fit your theory about oversteering in a straight line due to the fact the rear tires just lost some traction because of not good tarmac?. I have winter tires on and did warm up tire a little bit before trying; but it is still winter here close to 0 celsius . Wondering any tips for large HP RWD manual car in a straight line?
In that case the rear tyres haven't lost traction, they exceed the available grip limits - different concept. Unless of course the rear tyres moved into an area of lower traction. Either way, grip limit is exceeded.
Large HP RWD manual car in a straight line - feed the power on slowly, and if grip limits are exceeded, fractionally back off the power, and steer as I've described in the oversteer recovery video you watched. You need to be very quick about it; the earlier you correct, the smaller the correction needed. And the more gently you approach the limit, the easier it is to correct. Practice somewhere safe :-)
Thank you for your video. What does it mean to increase the turning radius? Does that mean to take a wider turn? I recently had a scary incident in my FWD car where I entered a corner braking and the shift in weight caused my car to snap oversteer, and then I over corrected with my countersteering. Is countersteering still necessary for FWD cars?
It means turn in a wider arc than a smaller one. The greater the arc, ie the less steering input, the less demand on the tyres to turn. So if you are oversteering you can reduce the oversteer by widening the turn as that way you are demanding less turning grip from the rear tyres.
@@L2SFBC So in this scenario, this would be something one would do before traction is entirely lost and the rear swings out, correct? What does one do when the snap oversteer has already happened?
Traction generally isn't binary, ie you have it or not. It can feel that way if you are on dry bitumen and hit a big oil patch, but even then there is *some* traction just not very much. In the case of most skids it's a reduction in traction, and this is conceptualised by considering the Circle of Traction and exceeding it. This is why I've extended the CoT concept by making the edges fuzzy to signify reducing traction as a hard-edged circle implies grip grip grip then zero grip. I also put in a graph showing tyre slip angle and grip to illustrate the point.
To answer your specific question as soon as you feel the car rotating in oversteer you need to take corrective action, and what sort of action depends on the nature of the oversteer and the car, as described in the video. For example, oversteer under braking in a front-drive car requires a different recovery technique to oversteer under power in a rear-drive car.
Question about Lift off oversteer. I am not touching the brakes, i just go instantly from the throttle. According to the video i should increase turning and reduce Breaks. So in this scenario i can only increase turning?
Yes. Look at my Oversteer Recovery video for more. The back end has lost traction - outside the Circle of Traction - and you need to bring it back in line. If you're not braking then that's a good start...but you are using grip for turning, and potentially too much. So, reduce the turning. If a front-drive car you can also apply power.
Hello, can rear negative camber help with oversteer? Right now my rear camber is 0
Maybe. It would all else being equal increase rear grip when cornering hard, so potentially yes.
Code brown😂😂😂
if you just push the clutch pedal in (mid eng rear drive ) will the car regain control?
Pushing the clutch pedal in is never the answer to a car control situation. It is what you do, along with slamming the brakes on hard, when you have entirely lost control. What situation were you thinking of?
Dont overcorrect,steer into slide.
15:50!maybe he wanted to clear the track quickly?!
hah yes!
Isn't this just a natural instinct people have? How else do people react if not this way?
No it's not natural for most people
@@L2SFBC What do they do instead of this? What is the common reaction if not this?
@@daniellec2172 Crank steering towards the slide and brake hard, or not do much of anything at all, depends on how urgent it is
Does not tell anyone how to recover from oversteer. If you're too far gone, sliding on brakes is better than overcorrecting. Oversteer in a very powerful car is very difficult to overcome. Don't oversteer in very powerful cars. If you can handle the power, you know what to do because you've scared yourself to death in safe situations.