We gotta talk about endgame...
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Zizaran shares his opinion on the current state of endgame in Path of Exile 3.25 Settlers of Kalguur League.
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#pathofexile
Straight up - take scarabs ability to interact with T17s out of the game.
Put two nodes in the atlas that allow you to focus on rewards in the two sections of T17 maps. Either disable the boss room and increase rewards from the map OR disable the map and you enter directly into the boss room, and increase the boss rewards.
This way rolling a T17 map becomes MUCH easier. Got a aids T17 roll that makes the boss hard? Sell it to a mapper. Got an aids roll that bricks the mapping part? Sell it to a bosser.
Economic solution compatible with both HC and SC. It also leave, intact, the ability to run T17s without either node enabled allowing the big dogs to run the entire map to have a chance at the rewards from both sides.
I feel like if they don't want to mess with the atlas nodes too much, they could even add some map crafting options specific to the T17 maps. But I agree that the scarab economy is messed up by T17s and we shouldn't be able to use scarabs on those maps.
The problem is is you want to keep t17 mapping as a real thing when it should not be a real thing that competes against t16 mapping. We already had a good place for varied in-game mapping strats, with a variety of map layouts that were decent and decent mod pool. This system also was still competitive enough with side content than most people didn't feel bad doing side content. Yes mf quant juice strats were king, but The disparity was tolerable for most people.
Every single thing about elevating t17 mapping to be the new endgame mapping is a detriment to all of the positives that we already have in t16 mapping. And the only reason people like it is because it's more loot. The whole thing is a stupid red herring. If the problem is just loot then how about you Just fix loot in t16s instead of throwing out every single thing that is good about mapping when making this new class of t17 with fixed loot.
It was a fine experiment but the flaw is really obvious and until we come up with a good solution perhaps we can just revert instead of trying to put 50 different failing Band-Aids on a system that is fundamentally at odds with the entire design of the game up until now.
@@MannersPlease I like the idea of "Uber" mapping content beyond deli to push high end characters. So I'm not totally opposed to T17s in theory but you make some solid points that this "uber" mapping content can just be in existing T16s.
@@theluo652 feel like we already had Uber mapping because league content ... But I like t17s and wish more maps were like them
gold definelly seems off
on the trailer they advertised this league as a way to "leave the game running" while you are offline, with auto mappers and the ships, but in reality i can barely leave the town running while im playing, and they are definetly not working while im offline
yesterday I ran 8 t17 maps, got to 250k gold, it was gone in less than 12 hours, each t17 pays for at most 2-3hours of town running I basically have to fire the mappers to be able to afford running the town on weekdays to leave for work and still have the farms running by the time I get back, they claim that workers don't cost wage while not working (eg idle mappers) but the truth is the wage per hour still seems to only go down when I fire them.
Yeah this game is only really designed for someone with no job who can play endlessly
@@riktorGaming"Wages" number doesnt go down when they are idle but they dont consume the gold so you can look at the timer how much time you have and then employ more people and look again, if they arnt assigned the timer is the same
Yh im having the same problem not even fully upgraded everything or have the highest lvl people but im still struggling to keep it going. Ive been farming t16s get about 10-15k gold a map but at this point my gold cost per hour is 20-30k. So if i do any upgrade all the golds just gone
@@seanj5249 100%
T17 should literally just be for uber fragments and special uniques from those bosses. The rest of the maps should be like those waste of time shaper areas. At most, they should just scale like normal T16 maps except you get a more juicy boss drop at the end.
We had that before and it was terrible so got changed .
Kinda like Valdos maps.
@@danielcook8480 yet increasing rewards for the rest of the map is now also an issue ?
way i see it its never gonna be good
just t16 but with special boss drops is bad
giving extra rewards just justify the increase in tier is also bad ?
so what do we even do here ?
Make them unaffected by scarabs and atlas. Just make their base loot quant etc higher.
@@SilentButDudley but then people will cry thats not enough lootz'n shit agin and we are right back at it
no matter how you change stuff people will find a way to say its not enough or too much
just look at leagues
either they are too generous or not good enough
cant remember the last time the majority agreed a league was just good enough
The entire point of doing normal bosses was to get access to the Ubers, Legions get you access to the stronger Legions, Blight maps get you access to Blight-Ravaged, etc. They have a precedent set for content existing to get you access to more content, so T17s just need to be the same.
So they should not be at all? Let's make it so normal bosses drop fragments for Uber bosses like every other mechanic in the game?
@@kostya555666 Yes.
Soo...literally revert it to how it was before more or less
@@goldenhate6649 no, before there was still a problem. It was not worth it to run regular bosses because you could make more profit by activating some nodes on your Atlas tree and running them Uber. Those who weren't strong enough were discouraged to run the bosses at all because selling the invitations to those who could was more profitable. The system this commenter (and I in my comment) proposed would give non-Uber bosses an inherent value, that is, granting access to Uber fights. The weaker players can flip regular invitations into Uber invitations for profit, and the stronger players can farm Ubers to get profit that way.
@@goldenhate6649 That's not how it worked at all. Before it was an opt in system, you'd use the normal boss fragments and then opt in for the uber version. You never needed to fight the normal version.
The proposal here is to have access to ubers locked behind killing the normal version.
I feel like all they need to do is remove the ability to use scarabs and atlas tree points in t17s, make their value the frags and give the bosses interesting loot, they don’t need another reason to go in there.
I think a good idea would be to flip ubers and t17. Have you get fragments in the old way, and then killing uber gives you a chance at a t17 map. That map cannot be juiced via scarabs/passive tree but they can be tuned to be super difficult with unique drops
@@ViciousSkittle yea but then we are back to square one where we dont have a source for the ubers. honestly I think there should just be a rare fragment dropped by normal pinnacle bosses that you put in with the normal invitation to get your uber fight. but ggg clearly doesn't what something like that.
fragments, boss drops, and good exp is all they should be.
Absolutely you should NOT be able to use scarabs on them.
Then they would be useless. You people are crazy.
For the gold problem. x10 the hire cost, divide by 10 the wage cost orso
Gold should be limiting to expand/improve your village (getting better workers is improving thats why increase the hire cost)
For boats (and i assume mappers) you are limited by the amount of ships and time needed to sail. If you have a ship and time limitation, why have a second limitation in the form of gold? thats why lower the wage cost
but workers gonna unionize and ask for higher wages /s
@@mackparker9064 then send them to a reflect, no regen, 115-is% less recovery minautor map and smile at those who were left in the town haha
Exactly! The problem is not the investment but the upkeep.
It's worse than gacha game mechanic
The t17 issue was exaggerated since the scarab changes. It ended up removing power away from the atlas tree/maps into the scarabs. Scarabs used to be and extra thing to min max. Now it's the base requirement to profit and sustain. Being forced into one mechanic and being pushed to used scarabs is an issue in my opinion. I feel punished for not using top hat on the atlas tree and all the map nodes.
Just curious why putting power into scarabs is baseline bad? Especially if they increased the rate at which you can acquire scarabs? IF you like alch + go strats, they are still extremely viable. Atlas passives are still extremely powerful before you get into t17's. Like you still need to make your currency and your build work some how. I never felt forced into doing t17's, i made enough currency to buy headhunter at 100 div on day 7 with basically no lucky drops, just doing essences and rog crafting
@@koopk1 Scarabs pre rework worked additively.
Rusted adds +1 abyss, +1 legion etc, a more expensive gilded just added like another abyss or extra rewards to legions, and you could not run multiple of the same type.
Now its multiplicative, each mechanic has like 3 different scarabs that boost not only the base mechanic, but also makes the other 2 scarabs add more value too. So if you use 1 scarab, you are losing value by also not using the other 2.
This means you are essentially pigeon holed into full juicing 1 mechanic, and every scarab is priced around you also using the other scarabs together with it.
And "dropping more scarabs" is not enough at its current rate. They made it drop like 50% more scarabs, but made every mechanic want to use 200% more scarabs too to hit its full potential. The supply just can't keep up with the demand.
@@koopk1 Ye, I think the POE community is overreacting like always, you can still make decent currency without running T17's. Yes T17's are currently the best space to make currency in, but there are always one or 2 strategies that are the best any given league, I think the main issue is that most of the strategies are way better in T17's so unless you are running them in there(a lot of casual players/players with bad PC's can't do T17's) then it's bordeline not worth using the scarabs in T16's as their prices are dictated by T17's and with the ground loot being weak in T16's it can feel quite bad
That's not the problem, it's just like how the bosses before t17. You feel like not doing the bosses yourself because you can't do the Uber so you sell the ticket instead. Now if you want to do certain strategy it is basically not worth doing them because of scarab.
Efficiency and optimization is one but more importantly your choices are more limited, you feel super bad when you can make 15 20 div per hour in t17 when you do same strategy for half the amount in t16 but you pay the same in investment.
Also rolling t17 is fk nightmare the more your builds can do the more brick mods on the map
doesn't help that the amount of scarabs is bloated and the UI for the scarab tab is an unreadable mess.
No one ever complains about Sirus fragments, Uber Elder fragments, etc. Just give us access to ubers as fragments dropped from the regular version of the boss. Balancing exactly how many times you have to kill Eater for an invitation to fight Uber Eater is the only challenge at that point, but I feel like this is the foundation of the best solution to this problem.
SSF feels real bad with the fragment changes. Take ages to get one boss doing content I DO NOT want to do.
@@BoredFilthyPigall of SSF is forcing you to do things you don't want to do
@@bign0ah726 nah
@@BoredFilthyPig yah
@@BoredFilthyPiggame is balanced around trade, if u dont like the way ssf is just play trade? Its like playing a game with a blindfold then complaining about not being able to see lmao
My favorite thing about last league was how available scarabs were. Even though t17s were busted for profit you could still make 8-10 div an hour via t16s and scarabs. Now its like you feel BAD using scarabs in t16s which should never be a thing..
Invested all my div on scarabs for harvest, essentially in T16 - in necro I was making tons of money - I just lose money or make couple of chaos. One map cost around 60c to run - corno.
You can go crop rotation but still to pricey for what you get.
Love the league, but if they ain’t fixing in a week will go to other games
@@skinnyceps so true bro I e tried everything and outside of a few big profit crafts most strats in t16 just barely break even
Some side content not dropping reasonable amounts of gold is a big problem. Blighted maps in particular feel very bad. Blight encounters in map (especially with the tower salvage notable) often give several times the gold of a blighted map.
it used to be that the atlas passives for blight work on normal maps but not on blighted ones so theres ur misalignment ,unless they finally changed that, witch was the only reason why i stopped playing with blight even tho i like it
The times I've gone in to Heist, the place is a ghost town. And I bet it's due to the pressure of gold and ore - very low gold from it, and no ore means that people are pressured to play maps.
@@krang7245 There is no reason to change that because it is always like that. Maps that are in anyway unique does not work with the Atlas tree. The problem is not the Atlas tree applying in the map the problem is that the gold drop is not adjusted in blight maps.
@@dianshi9152 that was my point with that too it sucks a bit that u need to use good oils to get profit and all those point in atlas just feel a bit underwhelming but maybe that's just me
They need to increase the gold pickup range
Just remove range altogether like with expedition artifacts.
@@goul7712 YES
@@goul7712can’t it’s a anti botting measure it makes it very difficult to have some kind of auction house bot because of gold gen
Making it required to tag a mob won’t work with group play either you’d basically be forcing solo play if you care about kingsmarch at all
@@zigzera7757 huh? bots in poe can farm and do chaos recipe on their own. auto looting gold is not the impediment.
I unironically thought gold pickup range was part of intended melee buffs for this league since day 1. I couldn't disagree with increasing the range in any case.
scarabs feel bad even in SSF, they have too much power compared to the atlas/map device crafts so you feel obligated to use them in conjunction with a complete farming strat.
I think removing power from the atlas and giving it to scarabs was a bad idea, but they obviously cant put all the top-end scarabs on the tree, so honestly I dont know how they can fix this issue without making everything watered down.
They can add it to the tree, stop caring about trade league and focus on the SSF gameplay
They can certainly add it to the tree. I'd much rather juice a single mechanic on the tree with my full set of points than to split points between 1-3 mechanics and use scarabs to juice 1/3. Why bother using scarabs that guarantee a mechanic when I can do that on the tree? Should be the same for basically every other scarab that's worth less than 20c.
love scarabs in ssf. fucking hated sextants way more
@@HarkinsX this
Seeing you being able to afford 33k an hour is mad enough to me, I stopped buying more people when I hit 7k an hour
EDIT: the answer I think lies (like atziri) with fragments - make each T17 map take 4 fragments to open
-blocks 4 slots on the map device
- limits scarabs
- the fragments could drop 4x as much as the maps do currently for the dopamine hit
33k an hour while online or including offline time? Because 33k is like 3 maps even if you're not juicing T16s very much. With my atlas tree on chisel/alch and go, I'm doing like 15k-20k per map.
@@eckology016 I mean sustaining 24/7
I average 7k a map, alc n go with expedition harvest and alva
That ending. "Try to die, less ..."
I'd only play for 15 to die less than he does lmao
I think this is a common theme in Path of Exile's history. It started with maps being so rare that you had to do things like group up and roll maze to not "waste" the xp/loot from higher level maps. Then we had the same problem with bosses, legion, delirium orbs etc. That's why for a long time Sirus required you to just run maps to do him instead of it being fragment based. There really doesn't seem to be a good solution for this other than "obsoleting" the content (not making it the most profitable).
At least IIQ stacking is now gone.
I actually do miss just having to do maps to proc the conq and having to fight them myself. It gave me a challenge, and if I wanted to sell to someone I still could.
The gold balancing act has only made me hate the need to level up new characters through the campaign even more. Especially as a 9-5 working casual i just don't have the time to do 3 hours hard grinding and then 6 hours leveling a new build. Has actually really soured my experience.
While I hate there is the real time element...
You notice that all what you loose by ignoring them for a day is few pieces of equip? You wont loose the workers, you wont loose the progress.
What I mean is, you are actually loosing nearly nothing, its just the fomo what is spoiling your experience.
Its the same like not rerolling, becouse you fear that while leveling you are not getting better loot from t16/t17...
@@SalterTheI'll give that a classic yes and no.
Yes because you are correct. The workers don't quit because you can't pay them.
No because this game already encourages optimisation and efficiency in all its aspects. Some of it is behind the guise of choice, but you are given incentive to get the most out what you want to and can do with the time available to you in order to progress. So being locked out of The Mechanic this League as a punishment for not being able to play enough feels double bad. When this League had the potential to still allow you to progress while you are physically unable to. Not necessarily at breakneck speed, but slow and steady is good enough. Yet that requires resources that come with an hourly wage cost you can't afford over that time period right now.
Do you see where the problem is?
@@nestrior7733 Similarly to your answer, yes and no.
I think its just about the way you are thinking about it.
As we both agree, rerolling in its nature is inefficient when we are talking about pure gain.
So actually what I think is the issue here is, that it DOES give you theoretical option to keep it running while you are rerolling and not just resetting with your character. If it was character based, you would be ok with it running on low gains which are equal to your current character.
But with how it works now, you cannot realistically pull it down, like rest of the mechanics, to the level of your char.
Hence creating the pressure on your fomo even more.
So overall I think it still is just about the way you are looking at it. You dont have to have your boats running, miners mining etc. BUT its true that real time element and over all concept of the league makes you think you have to, or you are missing on significant level of passive income, even tho its actually not as passive as it looks.
@@SalterThe The only problem I have with that is that Kingsmarch is *_the_* focus of the current League. You are kind of supposed to do as much as you can while we have it. Otherwise you might as well play Standard right now. Where it will end up anyway from the sounds of it. And, well, Settlers can't go core the way it is now while it has to be this way for it to function. At least Gold has to drop everywhere once it's unlocked and every "main area" (Campaign and Maps) should contain at least one Ore Deposit. That's the baseline for it to work and that makes Settlers very different from every other League. While you can just ignore Blight Encounters and your overflowing Sulphite storage, they are also random occurrences in the first place. Meaning that you can actually _opt into_ finding more of them. But when something is everywhere by default, it automatically becomes *_opt out_* and that's where the problem lies. Part of it is fomo, absolutely. Yet not using what you have anyway also feels wasteful. Especially if it can end up helping you.
Idk if GGG's plan going forward is to just keep Settlers how it is and let people use their millions of unused Gold for the Currency Exchange and respecs. But I do hope that they fiddle with the amount of Gold and wages enough for it to become a bit less of a commitment. And if it's just ramping up the amount of Gold item quant gives. Also side content.
Honestly this you're saying is a fault in our mentality, this is the only league you see people expecting good income even while running a new character. Previous leagues you could do the content sure, but you'd never expect anything amazing from them till maps, now cause it's more of a passive thing we feel bad if it's not running at full power 24/7. Gold definitely should get buffed for side content, but we should try to tame our mind and just accept campaign isnt going to bring as much stuff
Well the best way to solve the gold problem would be to make Ship trading bring you gold according to the mats you sent, also make your mappers bring in gold. They need to implement this so the town feels like a town and at least get more self sustain
My solution would be to make T17s drop as white maps only. Then increase the baseline difficulty so a white T17 is a bit easier then T17 right now so its a good bossing map for inbetween normal bosses and ubers like they are intended to be. If you wanna map in T17 you can throw on a transmute for 1 modifier then regal for another and add 2 per exalted orb used on them until 8. The new mods that roll should be more along the lines of gauntlet modifiers but even harder (so they dont just brick builds because thats unfun) for example 100% increased attack and cast speed, 200% phys as extra, 4 additonal proj.... and each modifier also increases monster life by 50% and dmg by 25%. My goal here is to make it encouring to put multiple mirrors into a character that can do the juciest T17s but also make stepping stones on the way to the juciest by being able to choose how many modifiers the map has.
Blight mapps should have an added gold increase % on the enchantment line
Sanctum delve and blight maps should have some form of gold generation
Make T17s work like old 5 ways. Instead of a single map dropping, you drop 5 map fragments, each with one prefix and one suffix. All 5 combined generates a random T17 layout with all the prefix and suffixes on it (+1 random T17 affix that you only find out when you enter the instance). Leaves people ONE slot for a scarab. Pick your poison well.
Gives you control on what you run (you can choose from the pool of affixes with the fragments), still has some of the randomness (both layout and T17 mod).
All they have to do is make t17s unique/fragments. Then you can't modify them, and boom. Scarabs go back to being a t1-16 only thing.
A potential solution to this could be to add a tag to T17s that prevents them from being affected by scarabs or fragments. Then add a scarab that drops exclusively from T16s that’s worded something like “allows scarab as to affect T17 maps” . Hopefully have them rare enough to incur most of the cost that are on general scarabs atm, and have the general scarabs being priced around running T16s
I couldn't keep up with gold cost, so I just started ignoring it
T17's should only be farmed for their Uniques and Fragments.
My simple minded way to go about it
- "Can't use Fragments or Scarabs with this map"
- "Atlas Passive Points do not affect this map"
Gold Drop needs to be worked on, agree
i like to play myself but if you find fragments> sell them, if you find scarabs> sell them, if you get maven splinter sell them. if you get timeless emblems> sell them. Now i understand why so many people play SSF
Also, if you need gear: buy it on trade.
If you need any resource: buy it on trade.
This. I don't want to interact with trade at all.
Upgrades also feel way better
One thing I like about scarabs being priced this way is that alch and go is inherently more valuable because of it
You get to sell all these scarabs for a ton and very easily with Faustus
At the same time theres like 250 scarabs and 10 max exchanges. Do all the scarabs insta trade?
Someone commented on the subreddit that one fix would be not let scarab work on T17s. Honestly i would take that gladly
End game feels extremely bad for me currently if I stick to T16 maps. The scarab prices are extremely high and you almost never make enough to even break even when doing it in T16 maps. Endgame has never felt worse to me which is really sad because I was so hyped for this league.
The majority of players feel that way. This is the 1st league I closed the game a few times within the first 10 days because I didn't feel like I was progressing. When I saw the cost of Ambush scarabs, my jaw dropped. I didn't realized they were priced for T17s. It's very hard to make currency to advance my build for the T17 while the resources I need are priced for content I can't do atm.
@@mafiotzi I'm making bank selling scarabs and running ships.
you definitely do break even, wealthyexile says im doing like 5-10div/hr farming like 5 mod jungle valleys with all ambush scarabs. Scarabs might be worth a lot but that works to your benefit too, as they sell for a lot, and you can generate a lot of scarabs with all the atlas nodes for them and all the explicit map effect modifier nodes.
My issue is as a casual the T17 isnt a common drop pre 4 void stones. Then add on that alot of the mods for T17 are unique to T17 and make the maps impossible to roll where one T17 can either take 50+ chaos to roll or you just suffer and play either a rippy map or a maybe that take 15-20 min to clear because the mobs are so tanky. I also agree that uber bosses are easier than T17 bosses. I cleared Uber Shaper (just bought the fragments) in less time than it took me to clear “Uber” Uhtred. I feel like if Uber Bosses dont have mods affecting them then Bosses in the T17 shouldnt either. The maps should either be no mods and balance similar to Uber Bosses or they need to have a 4 mod cap with the mods only affecting the trash mobs in the map. Feel like reducing the mods on the map would also make T17 juicing less profitable solving the scarab issues. But yeah it doesnt make sense that T17 are a bridge to Uber Bosses yet regular and Uber bosses dont have maps you roll giving them extra stats.
HOL UP this man cooked. You seem like a reasonable person so I would like to discuss. I agree with most of what you're saying and Im sort of repeating what you are saying but I think they should make T17 maps more common as a drop and make scarabs WAY more common and bountiful. I almost want there to be so many scarabs that its an afterthought. I think scarabs should be as common as alchs and chisels. If you need something to play the game IE. Maps, alchs, chisels, scarabs, then they should be very common and you should be able to get a ton of them.
Scarabs were designed to allow people to play how they want and to customize their experience. So fucking let us then. If everyone had hundreds of scarabs then the price of them would be super low and no one would be gatekept from content. They wouldn't even need to nerf T17s at all I bet.
Now I do agree some of these T17 mods make the bosses harder than real Uber bosses so that probably needs to be looked into. I also like the idea of limiting the number of mods which would reduce the overall juice in the T17.
This confirms my feeling that I was just wasting my time doing T16 farm since the scarabs are so expensive and I wasn't aware why.
T17s are the worst thing to happen to PoE.
It makes endgame so boring.
@@rfo98band all scarabs are priced based on t17 rewards. T17s and terrible the current scarabs are terrible and it makes the game some un-fun.
Nah imo flame/flesh jewels were worse ... It completely killed ascendancy identity cuz now they Ballance around every ascendancy being able to steal other passives from other ascendancies of their chars
*if anything make every map like a t17 ... Map bosses shouldn't be pushovers and random rares shouldn't be harder than the map boss*
@@toukoenriaze9870 I mean that didn’t make the entire end game feel this awful though imo. Most strats really suck right now. I hate doing stuff like farming essences all day, or farming harvest juice for 17 hours. It makes me want to go play on traffic. I just want to slam as many monsters into my map as possible blow them all up and chase dopamine hits. To me that was why PoE was fun and now not so much.
there should be repeatable mapping quests for huge chunks of gold or maybe shipment trades where you just sell off your resources for gold. if we had like a daily 50k gold t17 map quest and a port for shipping that just rewards gold instead of items then the gold grind wouldnt be as bad. because then you could grind for resources or at least do the 50k daily to keep a couple hours of your town running etc. i hate dailies but were playing a league that lives in realtime for the first time ever. so it only makes sense
I feel there's two things - t17s and the new currency exchange. There are so many players who didn't trade a lot that are now finding it easy to buy eeverything from fragments to essences that the economy has moved because of it, so it's hard to figure whats moving what
I had a blast this season until I got to endgame. From there, I started looking at poe ninja to figure out what stuff would be fun to farm and was shellshocked to see that pretty much everything was cheap and not really great to farm unless you can giga-juice stuff.
Its a weird state of events that the mid game is dramatically more fun than the end game.
Delve has some stuff that you can farm like aul amulet
WHAT? everything i need for my build is stupid expensive
@@wizardsnut6792 Vouch, I'm finding success just horizontal mining 300-350 finding bosses w/ a mediocre gear on Boneshatter.
@@JayBtec Welcome to POE unfortunately. There has always be a tiny subset of skills that are actually affordable at the beginning of the league until you have currency.
To be clear, im talking about materials not gear. Your comment is exactly what im getting at. Gear still costs 50D but now logbooks, essences, artifact currency, etc are all dirt. Its incredibly difficult to be a material supplier in this economy and still have access to end game loot unless you are big farming stuff in the first 24 hours
I honestly think there is a very easy solution to the topic.
Let the t14-t16 map bosses still drop the invitation after running 28 maps. The normal eater/exarch has a 30% chance to drop the uber invitation.
Aside from that they share the same droppool, the only difference being, that the bottom 30 forbidden flame /flesh jewels (least used ones) can only drop from the normal version and the top 10 can only drop from the uber version. You could also give the uber version a bettter chance of dropping a forbidden flame / flesh.
You can apply the process to every of the bosses like Maven etc. Let the normal invitations still have value...
The scarb problem smacked me in the face LAST league when I came upon the one that allowed you to take a map's divination card drops and apply them to other maps. It's then I realized....this GREAT idea that was totally cool and unique and was going to ease up the GRINDINESS of running nonstop cathedrals or graveyards was just financially off limits to me personally. I remember when they announced it in the livestream and being SO hyped about that one change. It might as well not exist...it's equivalent to a d4 uber unique at launch...sure it's there somewhere, but I'm never going to see it. I'm guenuinely hoping this is a "this game is over 10 years old, and it's gotten too large and expanded in too many different directions that it's hard to keep a handle on problem" and not that GGG has just simply lost their way. I guess POE 2 will be the deciding factor in that.
I already droped the league. I dont want to do T17 and waste hundreds of chaos/time rolling and sanctum so there's no money to make for me.
Maybe a solution to the t17 problem is to make them like memories in that the atlas tree doesn't apply. Then you add, either random or specific, atlas notables to the map.
Youre on to something here. Maybe they can add a specific cluster on the atlas for T17s? sort of like they do for conqueror maps and such?
I think for the t17 problem the first step is to try to take away scarabs. An alternative is to make them baseline harder but give them no mods so they can be exactly as hard as they want so they can fill the role of being a stepping stone between pinnacles and ubers
As a newish player (I started in Crucible) this league has actually felt the best for endgame farming. The currency exchange market drastically lowered the barrier to entry for me and made the buying/selling process a lot more chill. Also as a SC player I'm a bit doubtful of the idea that scarabs are only worth it on T17s. I've been doing a full 5 scarab strat on T16s and turning a pretty good profit.
P.S. I think its fine for rewards from lower level content being only worth used on higher end content when 1) it's only specific things and 2) you cannot obtain these rewards from the higher end content they feed. A good example of this was mirror/deli orb farming during Affliction. It gave a good income to players who couldn't do the top 1% wildwood strats.
This league has been great for the top 2-10% of players. It's the top 1% gameplay that ziz is addressing lol.
Tbf while the league is great overall, the gold costs are just way too much to be able to do anything fun with the town mechanics. I've given up on mapping and run just one ship.
@@jprec5174 A good chunk of the video is dedicated to the idea that people with weaker characters can't use scarabs in T16 content because they're "all priced for T17s" which is simply not true.
I know how to fix it.
-Reroll of Tier 17 mods: The whole idea of tier 17 roll is to increment the cost of chaos orb to guive more power to more casual players. After defeating Maven, Kirak could SELL a maven orb to rerroll a single mod in a map for 10c or more. Also it could be usable in any map, even tier 1-16
-Effect of explicit modifiers: The increments on the explicit modifiers creates a really bad user experience where the user has the wrong information about the map that is running. Explicit modifiers change drastically the quantity and types of currency obtained. THis increases and reductions should be displayed in the map once it is placed (not open) in the map device or even in the player inventory.
-Removal of explicit modifiers: Regardless of the prior point anbout how to improve them , the increment of explicit modifiers doesnt really cut as a good mechanic.
-Creation of a new Challenge&Reward mechanic: As was used in affliction a SECOND PANEL with several rows can be displayed once the map is open. In it you could rerroll with chaos aditional this modifiers so more build variety could be in the meta. Points in the atlas tree could increase how many mods appear in this panel of additional "uber" modifiers unique for tier 17.
-Tier 17 Crafting: After creating this new Chaos orb dumping mechanics, Players should be able to craft Tier 17 maps as any other map. From normal to Rare. The following crafting steps should continue in the map device this rerroll option should take the chaos orbs or the currency needed from the stash.
- Normalizing of map mods: Normal mods rollable on tier 17 should be the same on any other map, as they can now have more mods uniques to them rerollable on the map device.
-Uber mods for tier 17 : This already exist on the current tier 17 map modifier pool , some could be improved but i dont want to type anymore. U get the point.
- Gold scaling: Should go from 1 to 16 with Tier 17 having the same gold than tier 16. UNique mods of Tier 17 could give more chance to encounter league specific bosses and affect quantity of materials.
This is totally fixable.
This fixes will achieve:
More people having access to tier 17 as they scale from a ilvl 87 normal map to an insane one
Increase reward of juicing heavily tier 17 Increasing cost of extra juicing on tier 17 Maintaining or increasing the dumping of chaos orb pool on the market
More uber bosses in general, this could be tweaked so uber keys have a reduced drop per extra uber mod on tier 17 you select, liming their drop for players who have at least 1 uber mod on tier 17. Having all of them guaranteeing X quantity of fragments.
The way to solve T17 is simple. Increase the quant, pack size and rarity even higher. Move the reward mods into an enchant slot like blighted maps (T17 can have multiple of those like blighted/deli maps). Bring back sextants but this time sextants can reroll/modify those reward enchants on T17 maps, like how blighted oil can modifier blight map rewards or deli orbs can mod maps. Make scarabs & atlas tree not work with T17s like how they won't work with blighted maps. Make T17 unable to spawn any league contents. The reward mods on T17s can even have down sides, like increase mob toughness/damage/action speed, increase explicit mod effect, etc, which will be paired with better rewards; other sextants lowers the reward like decrease quant/rarity/pack size but monster deal less damage/less action/less toughness etc. You can have even cool enchants like remove all mobs except boss but buff the boss up, and boss gets increase quant/rarity, to enable T17 boss rush strats. Top tier players would have even more challenging content to run, without affecting T16 farm economy. The downside is some gears might be even more expensive like the headhunter case, but tbh no one should need a T0 unique or mirror tier item just so their build is viable in T16s. If you want to give lower tier players a chance, make sextants and T17 maps drop only outside T17 maps, which will force top tier players to redistribute wealth back to the economy, because they either have to bulk buy these from a T16 farmer or buy 8-moded T16s to farm these themselves.
I think we're not meant to have it all. You pick one of
a) Farming and Shipping
b) Mining and Shipping
c) Mapping
d) Recombinating
And anything else you drop to like a single tier 1-3 worker.
I know we all WANT to do it all, but its likely we will stay interested for longer if we can't do it all at once.
Hopefully we get a bit of an adjustment for more gold, but I think where it is at is a reasonable starting point given the number of unexpected scenarios they had pop up in Necropolis. They probably wanted to be sure even if there was some wild strat that they did not predict things would still be reasonable. Now that the likelihood such a strat exists is relatively low, they have the data to ease up a bit.
This is how I went with it. I focused solely on shipping first. Gonna check out the Mapping later on.
My main problem right now is that the settlement was advertised as a sort of "meta-progression" that would be generous in filling in the gaps. Yes you can invest in it, but it is no less of an RNG fest than regular gameplay. It is also far less rewarding than they lead us to believe. It's just the lucky few that get a mirror shard or t0 unique, which compounds the issues some more.
T17s shouldn't have access to scarabs and atlas passives. Also, if GGG wants T17s to be purely a stepping stone to ubers, then make the maps focus on BOSSING. Replace monster packs with a single map boss. Keep most of the current map mods and bonuses, but heavily reduce the amount of monsters in them. That, to me, would make them feel more significant as a power check without making them the definitive best way to farm all side content.
Idea for T17 and Scarabs:
Disable Scarabs for T17 (with some exceptions line Bisection) and create new Map Crafting options.
Those options would be to choose 1 game mechanic and it gives you 3-5 random scarab effect for that mechanic. Different price per mechanic, to reflect the price of scarabs. Like maybe Abyss for 10c, Ambush for 50c or more
I think it would make scarabs way more accessible for lower tier maps, while making T17 maps still worth it
But at the same time it wouldn't make T17 only good way to make profit, as you wouldn't be able to juice up every map to the point it'a not worth to do anything else
Its rather interesting that they added T17 maps then balanced everything around T17, as T17 is the only way to have decent gold income, or just general income of currencies and drops.
Which has made T17 the end game, instead of mapping from t1-t16 be the end game. So the game only "starts" now when you hit t17, not when you finish act 10. And most league mechanics may as well just not exist anymore so its good that we can turn off at least 10 of them because stopping to do a 10 round circle or rituals in t1-T16 maps just means you are slowing your progress to T17
I would argue that the current state is great for a lot of people, since we have access to scarabs which the 1% want and pay bank for. I can get far more content access via that currency than the scarabs would provide.
That said, I'm not super hardcore play hours wise in the game. It's also a very SMALL minority of big value scarabs. I don't really think that this needs addressing. You can sell the scarabs to get good enough gear to run T17s then eventually use them yourself if it's that big of a deal to you.
Edit: Specifically replying about the scarabs. I don't have an opinion on uber fragments, difficulty, etc. I'm a returning player, so a lot of this current content is fresh to me.
T17s shouldn't allow scarab but have their drops slightly increased to make up for it
Scarabs got introduced to replace this feeling from needing a sextant but it’s worse cause now you can’t as the little man realistically “farm” your own scarabs effectively for these strategies
My idea: Make it like a synth map. Its t16 but you get 1-3 random mods(could be currency so its more fun to run them, or rip'y mods) and you keep the same difficulty of the current map boss
There are a few T16 strats: Essence, Legion, Div Cards.
But there are some strats priced out by T17s, Ambush being the biggest offender, Maven Chisels too.
More difficult content is more rewarding. Giga juicing isn’t even dead, it’s just hard.
A couple things:
1) The scarab market is only “ruined” for a few select scarabs, with the prime one being strongboxes. Nobody in their right mind is running a t17 harvest or essence strategy (for different reasons) so those are still priced around t16 and below. This is another example of a few people posting frustration on Reddit and everyone just buying in without taking a second to think. Tripolarbear put out a great video on this
2) The 1% problem has always and will always exist in PoE because there is no time limit on how much you can play. It used to be that only the top 1% could get into the fracture map + sextants aren’t consumed strat, or legion with HH, or a variety of other things previously. If you want to be in the top 1% then quit your job and play PoE all day. Otherwise just accept that like everything in life you get back what you are able to put in
That's not true. The best scarabs for essences and Harvest are still priced around t17. When you look at tft most ppl sell essences under value which makes gearing for beginners hard.
Yeah this is a huge problem for new players and even players that weren't around the first week of the league (like myself). I can literally ONLY afford alch and go strategies so this is driving an even huger gap between the hardcore crowd and those that want to progress and have fun (and scarabs are fun if you can afford them). A lot of good stuff this league but this frustration might have me bailing early.
Since you mentioned it Ziz, I'd love to see a longer chat/podcast with Empy & Snap about endgame and how the softcore juicing and hardcore experiences compare.
Also, selling uber frags that drop from the normal version would make doing the regular version more worthwhile for weaker characters
t17s need to be unique maps that drop very specific things separate from regular juicing. No map mods, no scarabs. Gold should also be removed from the drop pool and added as something you get on map completion so you dont convert half your loot to gold.
This problem existed before. Back when not every map was t16, it forced you to do the specific maps that were t16. Their fix was to nake every map t16 to diversify players map pools.
This is a little different with the t17 mods and how t17 drops so much more than t16, but its also very similar.
My idea on the T17 problem :
- New Tiers of Scarabs that can only be used on T17 maps, and remove the ability for "normal" scarabs to be used on T17.
Something like "Awakened Scarabs", that can only be used on T17, combining/buffing an effect of already existent scarabs ( like the Horned Scarab of Awakening ).
That should make T16 mapping with scarabs more affordable since they are not in competition with T17 ones, and still possible to juice T17 content.
T17 will be more rewarding than T16 ( as it should be, it's harder content so you should expect better rewards ), but T16 juicing will not suffer from scarabs and supplies aligned with what a T17 farmer will get.
Balancing wise I don't know, maybe the rewards in T17 will rise out of control, but that's an idea at least, I guess.
I'm just trying to beat the campaign with your bleed lacerate build 😂
I feel like the city should make gold by itself. Mappers above rank 7 or something should bring gold in from maps, Ships should bring gold back from shipments scaling with value instead of tons of useless items. Miners at least give you some based on the ore you mark, but a high rank city should have some passive income.
Simple. Don't allow scarabs on T17s. This makes juiced T16s still an option and still makes T17s lucrative since it's the only place for uber fragments.
im a blight enjoyer and i really like it but im forced to run normal maps cause blight t16 drop around 3-5k gold and its not enough to sustain the gold/h
Blight enjoyer ftw 🎉
same plus the new atlas point that drops gold for each tower you upgrade wont activate in a blighted map. This league was so fun but now I'm forced to pick between gold to enjoy the new mechanic or blight for fun.
In my opinion, one solution would be introduce a special high tier scarabs that can was meant for high tier farming and only drop by specific boss i guess, something just like the Elevated Sextant that only dropped by Maven before. Probably with that, they will have to retune the drops in T17 to be somehow comparable with T16. It may sounds like a rollback, at least it maintain the balance there.
We didnt have issue with sextant & elevated sextant before at all.
Something worth talking about is also that, since the scarab rework, we can use all map device slots on scarabs of a single mechanic. The bad part is: They scale multiplicatively in most cases, so just using a single scarab of X mechanic will never be worth it in the current system, making any kind of low investment juicing even less viable. It's all or nothing, which imo is not healthy.
T17 either needs to be renamed and turned into a completely different challenge unaffect by scarabs or just scale it normally above T16 and get rid of the new mods and chaos only rerolling.
I think a possible solution would be to reduce the T17 maps to just the boss arena. It should be the stepping stone to hard bosses not for checking your ability to clear tougher maps. If you only have the boss, most scarabs don't have any effect because the mechanics can't spawn. That way you still have access to stuff like torments if you want to die or bisection scarabs to make it easier for more casual players. And if you're only killing the boss, loot will be more under control and easier to balance. The reward of a T17 should be access to the uber boss.
On the other hand, we are not complaining that balance had been around running T16 maps. The highest level content gives the most rewards.
Problem is - i can deal with uber bosses even on characters with low damage. Why? Cause i can deal with their mechanics. I can't deal with at least half of T17 mods simply because they either disable my build or make my life so miserable so i just don't wanna play anymore
and Developers are really good at not identifying obvious problems and getting the wrong conclusion for the solution...
you dont have to downgrade your shipping recruits, just remove recruits from the job if you sending smaller deliveries you'll find reasonably sized orders can still get sent with just 1 or 2 8+ shippers, saves your wage bill by quite a bit overtime,
All they did with this league is move the goal post for casual players. it used to be "just get yourself to T16 map farming and you will make money over time" Alch and go strats made decent money and the casual person could farm in the couple of hours they have to play a week and have an okay amount of currency. Now they just pushed that mindset even further away. Now you need to play early and often in the league to make 100s of divines to build a character that can do T17s quickly then have 10s of divines to invest in scarabs to run 30+ maps before you start seeing profit. Its similar to how people felt when MF was the only thing that made really good money, its not fun if there is only 1 way to make money in a game like this.
E.g Harvest Scarab of Doublings are 12c + in bulk at the time of this message, searching for sellers with 10+ stock.
With decent juicing ( 20% qual, 80%+ quant and using blue altars for more quant with keystone ), I average close to 1000 juice in most t16 maps, or like 13c with current prices.
The scarab, which doubles the life of mobs in harvests, would get me an extra 1c in profit per map on *average*. This is how bad things are in t16s in softcore trade atm.
Lets not even get into more popular scarabs like ambush...
Off the cuff, what if they added a mechanic that when you put the T17 map into the device, it was no longer tradable and it gave you a few choices of scarab combos, however they cost different values based on the boost to the map. Would create a currency sink to gamble for the rewards.
Could you use your magic to get the Devs to not make us level a new toon after we get one into maps? Some of us are bad the game and need to make a new toon as our starter is meh, but also don't have that many hours to put into POE.
Mark Roberts speed running the destruction of PoE 1.
I think the main problem is: as soon as we find out a nice affordable mechanic, a synergy or smth, it gets nerfed. The top tir players dont give a fck. They always got all of the nicest stuff that no casual can afford anyways, or maybe one piece, and the nerf means nothing to them. And the casuals that had a little fun with a awesom combination of affordable items or smth and maybe were able to fight ubers or play t17 for the first time, are screwed again.
They need to make scarabs so common and drop in big stacks so that they arent worth much at all. Scarabs were intended to allow people to play how they want and to customize their experience. Currently, that is not what is happening.
I'd like to see T17s to not be able to use scarabs so they're more about the bridge to ubers and less about farming. This should fix the scarab problem, but still make rolling them interesting and using atlas strats.
I hope they make a balance change to the end game during the season, though I don't think it will happen. I know quite a few people who have come over from Diablo 4 to PoE for the first time, only to be priced out of the endgame and have already quit.
I think having a separate group of scarabs for only T17 would work. Not only would it stop inflating the price, but it would also give people farming in T17 something extra to sell until they can reach that content.
Lastly, nerfing the bosses a little bit to bring them down to being a bridge between normal would be beneficial.
I have always thought that a super top tier end game content like ubers should maybe be more about achievements rather than gating loot behind them. What if each season each uber had like a 1% chance to drop a specific cosmetic item. It would give a reason to farm them but not gatekeep exclusive build defining gear behind them. This comes from a scrub who has never been able to do that tier of content but its frustrating how expensive they are because of how gated they are.
Been thinking for a while that the solution to most of PoE problems is to add a ton of content specific unique items into the general loot table. There's so many people who get stuck in red maps it's insane and i mostly think it's because the loot table is so bad that if you don't know how to craft you just get stuck with few ways to advance. The drops aren't good enough to catch up with rising prices and people just get discouraged felling like it's a carrot on a stick.
What if instead they made it impossible for T17s to be modified by increased effect of explicit modifiers? This would mean that the ~150% quant on them is more comparable with what you’d expect on juiced T16s
Im honestly just trying to maintain maps and chisels but i cant even do that and if i want to run scarabs to help with that im dropping 35c per map. Its insane...
Honestly, I don't view the Town as something I have to keep going 24/7. It's ultimately just a way to convert the trash loot drops (that are replaced with gold) into more useful currency / gear rolls with a real life time lag as it works through the town systems. That's really all it is in the end. If the gold runs out that just means I'm done processing my current trash loot.
Honestly I love it as it means, when combined with the currency exchange this season, I can turn all my would-be trash drops I'd have filtered out anyway into my currency of choice and never have to deal with setting up a bunch of person-to-person trades or hauling a million inventories of junk to a vendor.
The town is replacing most trading needs for me, and it is glorious to my introverted self.
Uber fragments should just drop randomly, and t17 deleted or turn into something like synthesis map (where you can't use scarabs). Problem solved.
"Try to die... less than i...", **resurrect to town**
I think a simple solution is buff a base t17 and dissallow scarabs with t17. Now you have 2 distinct endgames you can balance. If you can juice t17, we are getting the issue of end game Frags had before and t17 were ment to solve, just for much more common currency.
And here I'm still trying to get to t16...
@@markp1634 keep grinding exile, we're rooting for you
for those looking to make a little extra money while you lack gold but want your boats running for chances at the boss fight: ship 2 verisium bars and nothing else to a location. i use Ngakanu because there's a tiny chance to get tattoos, but presumably Riben Fell works too. this amount is the minimum necessary to send a shipment at all and seems to hit a fringe case in the rewards structure. it gives back 3-9 stacked decks, which ain't a ton, but it's more than it really should, and it's effectively 3-9c every ~30minutes, per boat, at a microscopic gold cost since the shipment value is like, 300, and so a single shitty worker can manage solo. they might die in a bar fight at the other port but the boat still makes it back... somehow... and replacing them is cheap.
side note: this method seems to never run into a "something happened and we lost part of the shipment" problem. it just runs into the "someone died" "problem".
Sounds like a cheap tactic. I like it! Got to the point where I'm only running a single super boat to carry big loads, so maybe i'll do that and have the others carry that precious cargo of 2 bars, hah
A solution might be so that the only difference in profit in t17 is the fragments at the end, but still be harder, so using scarabs in t16/17 increase your profit by the same amount.
The easiest solution is simply to remove the "more" multipliers on T17. That way T17 is still the best because it has more monsters and a rewarding boss. But different strategies (scarabs) arent gatekept by the more multipliers. If you were to run strongboxes on T16 or T17 it would make no difference. But as long as T17 has 200% more scarabs/currency or whatever then the scarabs will be priced thereafter.
The issue with T17s is they are the best place to farm almost everything. These maps should be a specific type of farm. More like guardian maps or blight maps.
The incentive to run T17s should be Uber Boss loot, not map loot. This by proxy means T17s should be about uber fragments.
Few bullet points:
- difference between 17s and 16s more in line with difference between 16s and 15s
- less loot from 17s (removal of special modifiers to scarabs, currency, etc.)
- less people running 17s,
- less fomo for those from can't or don't want to run 17s
- less uber fragments in the market
- less uber killed
- opening for increasing drop ratios of chase uber unique
- uber boss loot more consistent
This will make T17s an option to farm for uber boss fragments while T16 might remain the preferred place to farm other mechanics.
Loot like Progenesis will make uber fragments desired, so there won't be a scenario where no one is running T17s.
I run scarabs on T16s and still make profits. People just want to buy expensive ass scarabs and get them through the exchange imo.
It's always possible to sell shovels in POE.
It also makes little sense to me. Scarabs were priced around T16s before, if you couldn't handle T16s yet, you were left out of doing high investment farming too.
T17 should work like upgraded Kirac missions. You put in your map and kirac lets you choose between 3 different mechanics. Blight + scarabs for it or Delirium etc. This is map bound and can not be changed. You can also decide to not use any mechanic. This way you can use your own scarabs only in T16 and the prices will be scaled down to that. Also let the normal version drop uber fragments. The Uber bosser can buy fragments from the ones that can only farm the normal versions.
Most of these issues are a large part of why I keep saying that POE is becoming tuned to streamers instead of players. If they don’t stop this soon the streamers are all they will have left.
I agree the gold problem is real real. i might want to go to sleep or play a different game but you get major FOMO unless you farm enough gold to get your city going
My biggest problem is gold. I work 4 days a week as a truck driver. On my Wednesday off, I literally just farm gold so my farms are going for 2 days. I can't upgrade except on the weekends where I can play for all weekend.
I think the need for 4 fragments for every boss (10 for the maven) is where the big issue lies. Killing Elder once, and Shaper once, should give you access to Uber Elder. Needing to beat 8 guardians for each of those bosses, to then fight those bosses twice each, to get 1 shot at doing Uber Elder is one of the most boring End Game tasks. They need to understand that at this point in the games history, those of us who play the end game have played it many many times, and they need to consider removing the monotony of farming trivial stuff just to get to the good stuff. I always run out of steam when I start to do this daunting task of farming a minimum of 4 fragments for every single interesting boss fight.
Put a limit on t17 mods, if only 1 or 2 were able to roll on it, and the rest are normal t16 mods, the difficulty would be fine, as well as scarab problem because it won't give too much quant from the mods. Bosses are already hard enough even on white versions(bugged ones from when they were released)
GGG themselves stated that T17s were meant to bridge the gap between T16s and Ubers. We need to make their original intention a reality. T17s need less difficulty and less loot, currently it feels like T17 is the endgame, but Ubers should be the endgame
Honestly, you might not feel it's gamebreaking, but I've been around since 1.6, and I just can't deal with this kinda endgame. Top end farming now requires trading for maps and scarabs, and rolling T17s for ages, I'd rather deal with sextants again at this point. I've completely quit doing T17s because of the friction involved.
It has nothing to do with difficulty or rewards, just the simple fact of rerolling 10-100x before running a single map, and even more importantly, having to trade for maps all the damn time.
Not to mention that a week into a league T17s warp the entire trade economy around themselves, can't even juice T16s anymore since T17s & the scarab rework.
While I don't have a solution, I believe the game would be better off without T17s, and (never thought I'd say this before the scarab rework) bringing down the power of scarabs seems necessary from my perspective.