Wind Power on a CAR #2 - Testing the Betz Limit for Turbines
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- čas přidán 13. 08. 2020
- How much wind power can you get on a car? In this video we go into the theory of calculating wind power and how the Betz limit restricts us to just 59% of that. Then we go for a drive with two different wind turbines and measure how much power they're able to output.
If you missed part 1, check it out here: • Wind Power on a CAR #1...
I expect this to be at least a four part series and will try to get a part published each month. It's going to be a lot of work but I hope to stick to the one-video-per-month cadence if I can.
Wish me luck!
Quint
A huge thanks to my super awesome Patreon supporters who made this video possible. To become one of them visit:
/ quintbuilds
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as someone who studied wind turbines in college I can say without a doubt this video is gold.
Thanks Jesse!!!
the Whole Channel is a Gold.. Extract how much You Can !!
Jesse can you help me with evaluating a wind turbine site?
@@Mike-kr5dn tesup?
@@QuintBUILDs Thats the problem with micro wind. A LOT of the products are truly junk. Especially at that 400 watt scale. That being said I have a 1.5 kw Chinese turbine that I reliably get over 1kw out of anywhere above 22mph. Cost me $1200 but it was well worth it.
Your kid is wicked smart. You’re a good dad. I wish my dad was this interested in electronics...
To say I’m a big fan is a understatement. so happy to see a new episode!
I think you meant, "I'm a big turbine". :P
Its nice to learn something new in a time like this, when everyone is bored at home.
I am loving these wind turbine episodes. Learning so much from them, and they're entertaining as hell.
"Wind power on a car #2" or "How to burn up a lathe without even trying"
I love this stuff. Keep it up.
Yeah, I was concerned for sure...
Awesome video! But shouldn't you be wearing short sleeves while working the lathe?
Lots of accidents happen because the long sleeves get pulled into the spindle.
Best regards! =)
I was waiting for his sleeve to get caught.
@@imatardable sleeves or coat itself. Loose or long clothes is a big negative near a lathe.
While a Mill will hurt you a Lathe will kill you.
The camera angle made it look like he was reaching over the lathe chuck. Those dangling sleeves made me cringe in fear.
A hammer will kill you if you are stupid enough. Any safety tip will fail if you are not aware of what's going on around you. Safety rules are mostly elimination of potential risk factors. Loose sleeves are definately one of them but it all depends on what you are doing and how experienced you are with various tools. You should put your seatbelts on when driving but it doesn't mean that you gonna die if you don't.
@@ardvark84
It doesn't. But if such a simple precaution helps lower the odds, why not put it in practice?
As you said, people die from the silliest, most harmless things, so why take the extra risk?
A fun video thankyou. I successfully use a wind turbine to power my off-grid house. Credible designs that work are actually quite sophisticated in their operation.
I use a Berget XL1. At full power it produces about 42A at 25V. This output depends on the charging load and is reached at a windspeed of about 35kmh. It has worked very well for over 12 years
The controller in turbines like the Bergey is a digital controller with some similarities to a solar MPPT controller. It extracts energy from the rotational inertia of the blade disc in a way to maintain optimal rpm with respect to given wind speed and the load. It does this by extracting the energy in short pulses (in the Bergey about 30 pulses per second). As the wind speed increases and depending on the load, these pulses lengthen to keep rpm in a safe and efficient operating range. At very high rpm the controller starts to short the windings (in the Bergey case into a .2 Ohm resistor) to prevent turbine overspeed.
To have all this work in a balanced way it is very important to have a big battery to stabilise load voltage as this is one of the parameters the controller needs to reference many times per second.
For the turbine to work at optimal efficiency against lead acid batteries, ideally the battery in Ampere Hours needs to be ten times the maximum rated current of the turbine. In the example of my Bergey that means the battery needs to be 420AH. If you install small batteries the battery voltage jumps around too much causing the controller to misfunction. In my view in the case of the small 12V 500W turbines you should have a battery of at least 100AH, and preferably much higher.
You can get analogue regulators for wind turbines, these are more tolerant of fluctuating voltages but they are far less efficient because they don't optimise rpm and don't have overspeed braking.
Finally the cheap turbines have flexible blades that bend (furl) to dump excess disc pressure in overload situations where rpm cannot be controlled by braking. These are a suboptimal design prone to blade tip stall and flutter. For best efficiency the blades need to be relatively stiff with furling either by turning the blade disc out of wind (the Bergey method) or by a variable pitch mechanism that fully feathers the blades to stop them rotating.
Passive induction mechanical intakes could solve most of the issues that plague wind power generation. But they need to be downsized to homeowner sizes to be viable, imho.
You have a nice system.
Hey mate, I did my honours project on wind tunnel testing of these small turbines in an automotive wind tunnel taking wake measurements of them. Your explanation of the concepts is amazing.
Early in my testing I came across the same automatic electrical braking at a particular voltage, which is proportionate to an upper limit of rotational speed to protect the turbine. In my testing I bypassed this electrical braking and my turbine performed significantly better as it wouldn't continuously brake when it reached a high voltage.
It can reach that voltage limit quite easily if the resistance supplied is high ohm (low physical resistance on turbine). This will produce a very low power but be sufficient voltage to trip the brake.
That sounds like an awesome project Thomas! Thanks for the insight on the resistance. Keep in touch as the project progresses. I wish I could go back in time and check out your wind tunnel setup. FYI, I bought a 7200w alternator for part 3. It's HUGE! Going to really test the formulas now. I'm going to connect it directly to heating elements rather than messing with the inverter/controller too. I've got big plans for parts 4 and 5 assuming it works. :)
Great video and I really appreciate you showing the failures and misjudgment. It would be easy to cut those parts out but it's good to see that.
Why cant you be one of my mechanical engineering professors. :(
He is !!!!
Awesome job, you're like a less known Applied Science. Your kid is awesome as well. I had my doubts he'd understand the variac tuning situation, but it sounds like he completely had it down.
Thanks, yeah editing the footage I was surprised how quickly he dove in adjusting it when the turbine finally started working.
Awesome video! You put so much effort and care into these videos, and it shows!
Thanks for noticing Brian! It's about 10x the effort I expected but still fun!
Yet another brilliant video. Just as the excitement builds you cut it off... SO MEAN!!! Also, love that your son is so involved, future world-class engineer in the making there.
Omg, this video is what I exactly needed just right now because I am building a wind turbine project for my channel also and I run into problems how long turbine blades have to be! REALLY GREAT WORK!!!!
Takes airbag out of passenger side, adds metal plate for increased head cushioning, at least he is wearing safety glasses! Haha, great video, I enjoyed every bit.
Love your videos. Especially the way you go into detail about real world concepts and history.
Excellent video! Thorough, thought provoking and entertaining. Quality content!
Is that the child genius with you?
You’re a hero! Thank you so much for sharing such great work. It is gold indeed
15:12 the long sleeves so close to the lathe made me a bit dizzy. ^_^
I came here to say this, but you did. Thanks!
Liked a lot, all those sincere and relentless efforts will surely make the objective achieved in future
I got major Anakin Skywalker ("yipee!") vibes from your kid when it started working. Make sure you bet on him in the podraces. =)
i like the channel and get the coat is part of your brand but please for your kids if that coat isnt a tear away wear short sleeves at the lathe when you turned to talk to the camera you where moving your hands as you speak got uncomfortably close to the spindle
I need help on this because now a days I am working on it czcams.com/video/zmg3LRElmQQ/video.html
@CW NunyaDamnBiznez so what about results
@CW NunyaDamnBiznez very hypothetical talk, i can't understand all details but i guess , may be this project will make problem for life. Is it?
@CW NunyaDamnBiznez injured by self or by someone
@CW NunyaDamnBiznez thanks for your cooperation
Cant wait for part #3 Super nice content and your partner is great aswell :)
You're very smart, man. I wish more people would watch your videos. I like them a lot.
Spread the word! 👍
Scientifically enterteining , well done, keep on man!!
One issue I can find here is with the choice of inverter. I noticed you're using a modified sine wave inverter. Those are cheap, easy to find, and only about 80% efficient. Also they can kill motors and have an enormous amount of harmonics that can damage electronics.
I'd recommend trying a good pure sine wave inverter. Those are about 98% efficient and usually have fewer harmonics than even grid power.
Should that matter when the current is being measured prior to the inverter?
What is a 20% loss in efficiency before the loss in efficiency?
After waiting for so long...half an hour Video was all I needed
This is a great video. I just happened to watch the ones related to rainfall generation. I wish I really had half your energy to build and run all these experiments. One thing worth commenting is that the wind turbine setup with a large car grille right behind the turbine may be blocking or deviating a portion of the wind energy from the rotor blades. Ideally, the wind turbine should be located on the roof (at a certain height) to better allow the wind flow directly on the turbine. I know this is very difficult. Just to point out where there could be a portion of the under performance observed with current setup. Keep it up. Thanks
Thank you for a wonderful video. It's great to see the theory-hypothesis-experiement-review-repeat cycle in action :)
cool,theoretical maths verses engineers reality
Theory and practice are the same, in theory, but not in practice.
Sir need to contact with you, I am working for wind power vehicle czcams.com/video/zmg3LRElmQQ/video.html
But not sure what will happen but working. I need your valuable suggestions. If it is possible then please.
When your Bronco becomes the DeLorean on the inside from Back To The Future.
YES!!! I seriously considered a replica dash but once I looked up the details it didn't quite align with the project. But I wanted to so bad! 😂
Quint BUILDs
That would be epic! That’s one heck of a project to do!
So true!
Very interesting. please keep producing these videos! And ignore any negative comments we all can only learn more by sharing more!
So interesting seeing the the fact checking of what the manufacturer said the capability was versus reality, I'm excited to see how you engineer it to actually work
Absolutely awesome stuff. Love your content.
After many hours of watching CGI videos of wind turbine concepts, hopeful NEWS reports, and home built wind toys, here's the real deal.
Well done, you and your son!
Outstanding, can't wait to see what you come up with.
Thicker wires in the motor can make a big difference lowering internal resistance through a long wire composing a coil, while thinner but short wires in controller might not make a huge difference. 21:09
A key issue with ALTERNATORs is that the faster you spin them, the higher the frequency of the AC flowing in the coils. At 1500 RPM with a 12 pole rotor, the frequency is up to 150 Hz. And that means the synchronous reactance of the windings is getting higher as well. In AC generators, the synchronous reactance is much more limiting than the simple DC resistance. So even if you spin them at a few thousand RPM, there's still a limit to how much current you can get out.
Dankie/Merci/ Thx Clint and Grant 4 this educational video. It's great and love it. It also shows not to go with every thing the maker says. A max of 200W out of a windmill of 400 W (500W)!
I learned so much from this and also found it very interesting! Careful with those sleeves around the laithe though! Had me biting my lip a couple times!
Amazing content. Keep up the great work! 💡
It very nice. Keep it up by doing different things on wind turbine.
xD the editing on these videos is priceless !
I'll wait to see the conclusion before I buy. Thanx
another awesome science project can,t wait for part 3
I actually had this same idea 20 years ago, but was too involved in other projects. My thought on this is I always thought it would work.
The best application I can think of for this would be RVs and travel trailers that would have a battery bank for storage of the electricity. It would allow you to have electricity much longer in remote locations, and combined with roof mnted solar panels, would be a much longer lasting supply than the panels alone, which is what we see today. Id up the normal 2 rv batteries to at least 6-8. Add those watt-hours up and you'll see its quite a bit. Add an auto bypass to that and when the batteries reach charge, the current from the wind gen can be used to heat the water tank so you have more hot water without using propane. Cool video, Sonny T
I've been waiting for this
This save me some money and a lot of frustration, thanks.
Fantastic, love the whole approach to the subject.
Those "cheap" wind turbines sold on Amazon are mostly overrated overpriced junk. The real marine ones, for small vessels, cost well over 1000$, both in HAWT or Gorlov configuration and sometimes those too have overrated specs for marketing purposes.
Looking forward to the next video.
Interestingly 1000 Watt car dynamo's cost slightly over 100 euro's, even less from the car butcher. They run at high speeds, but they charge batteries at 1800 car rpm.
@@albertvanderhorst4160 Do you mean an alternator? Never seen a 1000W alternator, usually they are rated in V for electric potential, not in W for power. Do you have any examples?
@@gafrers 12 V 90 Ampere is about 1000 Watts in my book. I have such an alternator in my Mondeo 2.0. I can buy a used one for 35 euro's. Obviously 90 A is at 6000 rpm times the transmission gain.
@@albertvanderhorst4160 Price difference is that, higher rpm, semiprotected enviroment, not exposed to direct saltwater, mass produced.
@@gafrers My Ford Mondeo Ghia has a 80 Amp alternator for a standard 12V lead battery. That is about 1000 W in my book.
Splendid stuff.
Ah my waiting was rewarded! 😍
I'm very Sorry to understand only a Little bit than you are teaching cause you are Great and i'd never knew someone explain physics like you! So simple! Your project are so Cool and well explained! Not "i pick a computer fan and i turn It in a Electric generator with some magnets!"...you are awesome! Thank you from Italy! ♥️
Hats off.
Every word means something.
Love it. Keep working on this.
Can not wait to see your version and investigate the issues of the “off the shelf” items
Seeing things NOT working and trial and error is really great encouragement for the rest of us.
Wow your son is impressive! Smart little man. Geez I love these kinds of videos. This stuff is so interesting to me. I guess next you're gonna have to build your own 3 phase alternator....like a hugh Piggott design.
Another amazing video
Awesome video. Love it
thumbs up for bringing the mini me along!
I learned about the strobe effect from Smarter Every Day when Destin explored how CMOS sensors work. Pretty cool!
Great videos!
I can't wait to see what you find.
Thumbs up for using a TDS 210!
Cool project, but I wanna know more about that Bronco! Noticed it's a 70s from the front end, then did a triple take when I saw the dash. Super neat! Did you swap anything else like power train??
78 bronco with the guts from a 2004 f150. engine, trans, transfer case, abs module, a/c, power windows/doors... just about everything.
@@QuintBUILDs VERY NICE!! I noticed the passenger airbag disabled light, so assumed you did more than just the dash. Super cool man!
That is a super neat truck! I live in Hillsboro, maybe I'll see it driving around! Should be easy to spot with the turbine on the front :)
Oh my, I kept wondering why. I thought it was just the dashboard!
Can't wait for the next video!
Helping ;) have a good year!
Good vid. Enjoyed that. And the kid is super-cool.
Ur videos r really awesome
Blade pitch plays a huge role in efficiency so keep that in mind and controller part of it..
You can use simple rectifier ckt. Connected to MPPT change controller and see what it can do....👍
I support that suggestion. Seems like a plan.
Nice.... kudos...love it.
Inspiring video which has been done a lot of times by others, some people build cars around the turbines lol. This shows us that the idea is brilliant but the results are still not very promising. It also shows me that there must be another way to make use of the wind on your car. My idea is that we have to use the wind AROUND the car! Using the front wind and using the draft behind a car to trick the Betz limit theorie. It resulted into a prototype that works on these principles. A so called Push/Pull generator which will spin on a very high speed going up to a couple of thousand RPM and being reduced by a gearbox if the speed is to high for a normal wind generator. Maybe a car generator can do this job because they can go up to 10.000 RPM and higher. This Push/Pull generator has the ability to go up in speed to that circumstances of a normal car generator and can produce the same amount of power this car generator can produce. It should be around 12 Volts and 25 to 30 Amps loading power to charge the battery on a car. I think this idea works way better then most of the wind generators on the market right now, but it's made for the use on cars only. I am working on a type that can be used in open field or at your house. Same theorie but a little different then my Push/Pull generator.
This video is awesome amazing and fantastic but then so are you and your son
God bless you and your family.
Chief
I love this!
The PWM "inverter" is probably a lot of the issue. Buy a MPPT inverter since it will always analyze the power and try to pull more or less amps to increase the power
This guy is amazing
Very interesting!
Cool video, love you did it with your kid!
Try 11 blade model with skewed magnets !! Great video & info, nice work .
Even though me being an engineer (CS) I find it hard to understand some of the calculations, the passion you have while trying out different solutions keeps me hooked. sharing your content with my friends.
CS is a useful major. But what is your engineering degree in? JK...you set it up too well.
25:47 rolling shutter always looks so funny :D
Yeah i forget just now the two types of sensors in cameras that produce two different effects. There are a bunch of videos online showing how they differ. Okay I just googled it, CMOS and CCD. I could nerd out on that all day...
You're scaring the hell out of me getting those sleeves that close to that lathe while you're pointing stuff out.
Good work, I will try with a large turbine 2kW, 120V and a programmable controller.
Neighbor: "Steward, come look. Quint is out playing with his propeller car again."
Other neighbor: “Not again. I guess he’s improving, at least this one doesn’t have hands on it.”
that "strobe effect" at 29:07 is called rolling shutter. Its where the thing spinning in front of the light sensor in the camera matches (or closely matches) the shutter speed of the camera. i believe corridor digital (youtube channel, check them out) did a video on this in an airplane a couple years back
just great again!!
There was a guy in St Pete FL that I used to see all thw time at home depot that did this same thing. I never knew what he was charging but it was interesting to see. He had his bn on the back of the van and it was over the top of it on a movable arm he could raise and lower.
I was surprised that Ford could push that propellor, I did see black smoke.
Great vid, good to get young smart azz kid ( exactly like mine) involved.
Cheers
*THE HAND FAN RETURNS!*
The connection from the battery to the inverter during lathe test was with a couple thin alligator clip jumper wires, so i think there's too much voltage loss.
amazing video
Great video!
I am all for "green" energy but whether you buy the cheap or expensive stuff you just can't over come the losses you get in the circuitry and from going to AC to DC then back to AC to run our home appliances. So in the end its just not a super efficient way to generate power, but thankfully science and technology is always improving so it will be some day. Again great video, look forward for future ones.
Hi, thanks for the in-depth analysis and explanations in your videos. Sets your channel apart from many others that lack technical depth.
It seems that the "rectifiers" that come with the Chinese wind turbines have other functions built in, and have variable performance. I would be very interested to see what power you could achieve (driving the generator with the lathe) if you connected the output through a simple 3-phase rectifier and used the output to charge a large 12V lead-acid battery that was less than half charged. This would show what the generator itself was capable of, without interference from a "Smart" controller.
Maybe a 1000 amp or more marine deep cycle battery?
The upside down meter was so funny I paused the video just for laughing for a while 😂😂😂
Very good info. I built my own blades and put onto a 500W DC motor but the results were weak. Now seeing this video I will make some changes to the build. Oh and I never knew the BUILD acronym. Time to redo the blades. I'm also adding Gearing to change the Direct Drive to a 10:1 ratio thus ramping up the motor speeds.
Betz Limit sound like a word used on Roulette Tables in the Casino ;D
Well nice you are so curious about things to fid out. And it is sometime also good, not having success so easily.
That let us keep staying greedy for knowledge.Thanks for this enlightenment.
Eben auch das gehört dazu, ab und zu scheitern, damit der nächste Versuch besser klappt. Immer schön dranbleiben und vielen Dank für Deine Videos.
Nichts zu danken Christof! 😁
2:14
It's one of those moments where you think, 'Wow, I never thought of that...' .
At last a really valuable video on finding the limit. both on power RPM and overload. Without a battery after the wind turbine regulator the inverter will mess you around. Test would have been easier just with charging current.
Thanks Ian! 👍