Triumph Spitfire - Troubleshooting Rough Running #3 | Roundtail Restoration
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2023
- Still no joy. Have to wait until next year's car show and try again. At least it looks like the weather is going to be yucky, so that's some consolation. But, more importantly, I really need to figure this out!
Want to see all of the body restoration of my 1966 Triumph Spitfire? This playlist starts shortly after engine rebuild and goes through completion: • Triumph Spitfire Resto...
Want to see my engine rebuild of my 1147cc Triumph Spitfire motor? This playlist covers most of it: • Triumph Spitfire Engin...
Want to see other random technical videos, not exclusive to my Triumphs? (like generator testing)? • Technical Videos - Auta a dopravní prostředky
If ever you suspect a carb issue check the ignition is 100% FIRST ! I am 90% sure your problem is ignition by the way it stopped suddenly. BTW that UK made distributor is not made in the UK, it is made in China. Not that it is therefore bad.
I know the old adage that 90% of carb problems are ignition. In this case, though, I think it was something in the fuel line clogging up the jet.
Great video. I'm sure you will sort it out. I would love to hear the story about running without air filters. Good luck at the show.
Thanks, I hope so. I'll try to tell the story in my next video.
@@roundtailrestoration Chris I also think I might try to look for some kind of air leak in the fuel system that is only evident when really strong draw occurs under load. Always some great suggestions in the comment section.
It seems to check out ok with the vacuum gauge. And I did use that propane to look for a leak without success.
Good luck with this...sorry i have no suggestions.
Thanks, Barry. Lots of good ideas on here so far, some of which I've checked and others I haven't.
original box filter is more effective as it acts as a cold air duct and feed both carbs equally well. the aftermarket sports air filter soak more heat and are more uneven in supllying fresh air. lots to learn, philip
Hi Philip, thanks for watching. On my car, specifically, Triumph use the individual filters when they introduced the Smith's (PCV) valve. Until they integrated it into the intake manifold, it was a bolt-on unit like mine is and they had to go to individual filters because the filters boxes didn't support the plumbing. There's actually a picture of it in the workshop manuals after Revision 3. With the Mk3, I think, the PCV valve was integrated and they went back to the box.
Hi Chris, You can check if the engine is in need of fuel by slightly pulling out choke while on the road.
Good luck.
Thanks. How would I expect the engine to respond? Would I try to recreate the rough running and then pull the choke and I assume it would go away? I'll give that a shot!
@@roundtailrestoration Yeah. Pulling the choke lowers the jet and enriches the mixture, so you can test if you’re too lean by seeing if engine performance improves with the choke out. Given it sounds like you’ve not had a really good run your plugs will be showing you more what idle / warmup is like (too rich - sooty - which you mention) rather than what it’s like when running properly at speed. So it’s still worth suspecting, or at least not eliminating, a lean mix.
@@roundtailrestoration Hi Chris, yes exactly, as @redfoxclassics reply below :).
Doing this, the engine should rev cleaner If the car is seriously starved of fuel.
What is certain is new "Lucas" stuff coming in green box is made in asia and mostly crap.. Good Lucas was with orange box. Same with capacitors, new is crap. Try finding one from an agricultural equipment dealer as several old tractors were using a similar Delco dizzy; Old Vauxhalls used it too.
In UK Distributor Doctor does Lucas stuff and also sells good quality Delco capacitors.
Remade rotors often fail, particularly those with a big rivet on top...
A friend who painted the engine block found that the distributor wasn't always earthing to it, so make sure ALL metal to metal earths are good. Also there are 2 different fuel pump levers, 1 requires a spacer block & 1 doesn't, may affect delivery pressure, yours looks original AC, repros can produce to much pressure & I had to fit a regulator. Good luck with it!
@@ghunt9146 Thanks!
Hey Chris, I had a GT6 with a similar problem that it would not continue to run and I finally found that the fault was with the rubber membrane in the Smiths Valve. It might be worth your while changing that out and see if it solves or improves the situation. Just a thought and I wish you lots of luck. Regards.
Thanks. I did check that out and it tested out for me ok. I'll put it on the list, though
Chris, I feel your pain. My car would not rev well beyond 4K, turned out to be valve springs that had got weak over the years. Not sure if you’d changed yours during the rebuild.
Thanks, Andy. I went back through my parts invoices and I did indeed put new springs in.
Ignition switch…… or associated wiring.
Plastic piece on the back of the switch can deteriorate, become loose and cause an intermittent issue.
Thanks, Larry. I will check that. I had a new ignition switch at one time, but I can't remember if I went back to the original or not. Great idea!
I was thinking similar: maybe set your voltmeter up right at the positive side of the coil and get the car to act up, see if power is dropping out. Or jumper 12v right from the battery.
I'll give it a shot. Digital multimeters aren't great at measuring stuff like that. The old analog ones work better for seeing the pointer sweep when it drops.
Very true! Simpson 260, I'll bet you had those in the Navy!
Yup, especially early in my career. We still had them now for troubleshooting analog circuits, but mostly it's just Fluke 189s now since everything has gone digital.
Very long shot, but when I bought my Spitfire it had been run very infrequently over the preceding few years, and the float bowls were full of some sort of sediment which I assume must’ve resulted from fuel degradation (it had a filter before the pump). It might be worth emptying them fully with a syringe as you’d only need a tiny bit of muck to reduce the fuel flow to the jet. Small chance you have the same issue as you’ve done a pretty low mileage since rebuild.
You never know. I haven't pulled the jet lines from the float to the jets yet, but maybe I should, and blow them out after also draining / cleaning the bowls. Can't hurt!
@@roundtailrestoration Thinking about it, I’ve never experienced this myself but have heard about it from fellow TSSC members, some fuel hoses can generate tiny rubber slivers which are another potential cause of your issues. Would be solved by the same clean out process, but may reoccur if you’re having to disconnect/reconnect the hoses.
Chris love your videos. I have a 67 Mk3 I tore down 8 years ago. Nut and bolt total restoration. I lost hundreds of photos when I bought a new iPhone ( thanks to their employee) I am installing a new wiring harness now. Problem is I don’t have any photos of how everything was routed so it is a slow go. Rear harness was easy but under the dash and engine compartment is where I am struggling. Could you send me photos of your wiring? I m ready to get this job done but need some visuals. Thank you for your help,Tony
I'll see what I've got, Tony, but it might be a few days. Send me an email to roundtailrestoration66@gmail.com and I'll try to get something back to you.
Could it be the coil breaking down when it gets hot, and you loose spark or you get a weak spark ?
It could be...and last year when I had similar problems that's what I concluded it was. Not sure now if that was the case and this is still the same problem, but I did end up replacing the coil at that time. That would be two bad coils in a row, but who knows.
Does the electronic ignition still use the weights on the distributor? (The weights often stick at higher RPM.)
It does. I checked the weights and they move freely and the springs look good. I don't think it's a weight problem.
Hi Chris, I do hope your pb is only ignition/carb related but the fact that cyl n°3&4 seem always down on power, all the symptoms you have might be caused by a very tiny crack in the inlet manifold water pipe, going through n°3&4 inlet duct below when the cooling system pressurizes and metal expands.
Similarly it could be tiny coolant passage through the head gasket on cyl 3 & 4.
Good luck!
I don't like any of that!
@@roundtailrestoration Usually telltale is some white ash deposits on plugs
@@weescotildweescotild6875 Thanks. Not seeing that. Plugs actually look okay...but I'm not sure I've put enough miles on them to get an accurate representation. Nothing gross, though.
Chris, you may have already checked, I haven't seen the previous streams yet but, have you checked the gas cap vent?
Hi, John. Yes, I did check that. The last lap I had the cap popped open.
Im having this exact issue right now and its confusing the hell outta me, almost like its running on 3 cylinders, i get the odd backfire. But under load looses power!!
A backfire to me sounds like a timing issue. But, for me, I think it ended up being gunk in the carb jets. I took them all out and sprayed carb cleaner through them and that about took care of it. I'd verify your timing first, tho.
Is the intermittent related to only rpm?
Can it be induced with speed vs rpm?
Any quicker to intermittent on rough road vs smooth road?
Rpm could be related to load but also related to vibration.
Battery and alternator output up to snuff?
On big jets we’d do a “ hand over hand” inspection of wire bundles hunting for intermittent situations. This included tapping on connectors with say the butt of a screw driver, flex a wire bundle at various locations or even use freeze spray or judicious use of a heat gun trying to initiate a change in the status quo. I found a lot of faults with the freeze spray at connectors. 99% of all Lucas wiring issues are bad grounds or dirty/ corroded connections. Probably all obvious to you,
just brainstorming with ya brother….
Thanks, Larry. It seems to only be related to RPM because I get it while the car is sitting in the garage as well as when I'm going down the road, though it seems easier to reproduce under load. I drove it around the property (bumpy over grass and all) and didn't have any hesitation (going slow, of course, not really revving up there). Battery and alternator are good. I have not gone around checking for loose connections, though. One recommendation I had was to power the coil directly from the battery, so I might give that a shot.
Hi, I haven't checked if you've actually sorted this yet but I had a problem with my spit that made it run rough: There was a screw in the distributer assembly holding on the... condenser? I think... And the flow of current that should have been going to the points was managing to earth onto the head of that screw intermittently. I found it by making the spark gap with a screwdriver and thankfully my friend looking over my shoulder pointed out that the spark that was created was finding that screw instead of always going between the contacts. Also, despite having disassembled and cleaned my carbs, once things had warmed up one of the carb pistons was occasionally finding some grip and not descending again, ruining the timing of the carbs. Just some suggestions, I hope you've sorted it!
It was that screw you undo at 15:30 that I'm talking about. After reading some comments and seeing the description of cylinders 3+4 being affected, the sticking carb piston seems quite likely, especially if the situation seemed to resolve itself after some time (exactly what happened to mine)
Yup, I figured it out. Had something obstructing fuel flow through one of the carbs so once I loaded it down, it could keep up and spit and stuttered. No problems since! Thanks for watching.
@@roundtailrestoration You're welcome sir, rest assured i shall be watching more. Very gratifying to know that my supposition was correct... ish!
@@innocuouspseudonym509Close enough!
Could it the exhaust has a blockage and when you run at high RPM you get a lot of back pressure. Just a thought. 👍
I don't think so. The exhaust is new from the head to the tailpipe. And it feels nice and strong back there to the hand, but that's very subjective.
There is an old saying about British cars - "most carburettor problems are electrical", suggesting that most running issues are related to the ignition faults. You have eliminated distributor and plugs but what about the coil? I had a very similar problem where the car would run well when stationary but once moving would start to miss and backfire. The problem was the ignition coil breaking down when warm and under load. It might help diagnosis if you have another coil you could substitute. Good luck.
Definitely agree with the electrical issue. Still feels like that, even if I can't find any smoking gun. I replaced the coil last year with a new one when I had similar problems. It seemed to fix it, until now. That assumes I'm still having the same problem.
My first thought was also "it's the coil". so perhaps you are asking the wrong question .......... what is busting the coils? voltage regulator? rectifier? @@roundtailrestoration
Thanks, David. The coil tested out okay, though I did get a new one. Ended up being something in the fuel line, I think. No smoking gun, but she ran well for the rest of the season.
Is there a diode on the rotor?
No, just a piece of plastic with a little metal tab. Nothing so fancy as a diode 😆
it odd that it seems to run fine, then it goes rough after a while. Does it ever go back to running smooth without shutting it down and letting it cool off? My gut tells me that its the coil again. it could also be something like a tiny vacuum leak that gets worse as the engine warms up, maybe a loose intake? I know that is what the propane is for. Maybe even a borderline bad plug or wire.
I have confidence you will nuke it out eventually.
Thanks, Tim. I went ahead and ordered a new coil. I need to get a set of plug wires, too, but they are relatively new (new to restoration).
And check the fuel filter, how old is the gas?
The fuel filter has about 100 miles on it and the gas was put in in October of last year with some Stabil in it. But, I do have a spare fuel filter, so I'll probably replace it anyway.
it seems to me to be a coil problem. try the tr four coil on the spitfire and at least eliminate that issue.
I agree, I had a similar problem with my 64 spit couple of years ago. While the coil was cold the car would seem to run fine but when the coil got some heat going through it the car would start running rough and lose power.
Thanks, Nick. If it is the coil, this will be the second one. I replaced it last year when I was having issues. But, what the hell, it can't hurt!
@@roundtailrestoration - yes assuming you have the correct coil for your car the engine cutting out at a specific rpm is a coil that is putting out less voltage than spec. so if it's supposed to be putting out forty thousand volts that is sufficient for the entire rpm range.... it may only be putting out fifteen thousand volts sufficient to get you to maybe thirty five hundred rpm. the higher the rpm the higher the voltage necessary to fire the plug.
We'll see. I've got a pertronix coil on the way.
@@roundtailrestoration -- saw your short vid.... still no love with new coil. this is unbelievable. next on my list is to check rotor, cap and all HT wire resisitance.
Chris what I was trying to get to on using a gas tank beside the engine I can't remember if you bought a new fuel tank or just reconditioned the old gas tank but you could be picking up trash and about 3,000 RPMs with a vibration of the car. And what happened with the higher RPMs the vacuum sucks the trash to where the gas line is in the tank
Well, a bit of both. I had an original tank that I cleaned out (but did not treat or coat in any way) and used that following the rebuild. But, I got some sediment last year and I thought that was my problem then. So, I put in a new tank (that doesn't fit very well, I might add) and new filter, but the problem persisted. I still have that original tank and plan to clean and recondition it using one of those POR-15 tank kits.
fill up with oil black plastic scru on top of carburators
I did check that, Cornelius, I just didn't show it. Thanks!
replace the coil I've have had this problem twice and both times it was the coil.
Thanks, Bill. Think I will do that. Though this will be the second time I've replaced it. I replaced it last year when I had some issues.
How frustrating!
You got that right! Not like it's a complicated piece of machinery (as far as cars go).
I own british bikes, not cars. But my long distance youtube guess is the fuel tank is not vented.
Try removing the gas cap and take it for a quick run and see if anything changes.
Thanks, Lee. I did have the cap popped when I was taking that last lap. I though that might have been an issue of mine last year. No changes.
I had a 64 years ago. I sure miss it. I notice that the windshield wipers on your 66 are opposite from my 64. The wipers rested to the left and would leave a smear right where I looked through the glass. It seems that later years they inverted them to rest to the right. Am I right?
No, I messed them up and got the wrong wiper arms when I ordered them. I have since swapped sides and reset the motor resting place. And they still smear the water right across your view! Thanks, Rick!
Unless it is the video I can see the missfire on your timing light. Try running a jumper direct from the battery to the coil. This will eliminate any problem with the ignition power supply to the coil.
I think it might be the video. Timing of the shutter and the light. Good call on the jumper, though. I'll need to remember that for next time (I'm sure there will be one). Thanks for watching and your comments!
Just finished watching the video, I have very little doubt right now that you dont have enough fuel to support more than 3500 rpm.
Colapsing fuel line, plugged tank vent, fuel line to small...
For quickest check, try running with a temporary tank. That eliminates everything but fuel pump (least likely thing I think).
Good luck and keep us informed.
Yes, I agree with you there. I keep going back to fuel, too. Everything is new throughout the system (lines, tank). The only thing that isn't new is the pump, which I rebuilt. I may just pick up another and see if that helps. Maybe I botched the rebuild.
Just saw this video. As far as things being new . I can’t tell how many times I put new parts on my car (spitfire or even my daily driver ). And new parts were failed right out of the box . Parts these days as you know… are crapola.
@@frankstrobel4350 I agree, Frank. But, I did get a pertronix coil and put it in today...same symptoms. Not the coil.
@@roundtailrestoration is the it a hesitation /stumble ? Or a misfire (abrupt , sharp drop in power )?
All plug wires secure …all the way in . Maybe look at each post on cap …shiny copper ? Or black charred. ? Correct voltage to the coil ? These could cause a weak spark. Fine at idle bit under a load or higher rpm…could cause a issue. That all I got for now…trying to think of other things . You’ll find the problem soon enough 👍
@@frankstrobel4350 Thanks. Definitely hesitation/stumble. Cap is nearly new. Strong voltage to coil (which is new Pertronix Flame Thrower). Good at idle and revving in the garage. Put it under load...nope.
Hey Chris get you a gallon jug gas put beside that car take your fuel pump and hook it straight into it and rev the 0:07 car up and see if it's doing what you're doing now it sounds like you're sucking trash up in the tank and higher RPMs did you use the original gas tank I can't remember when you was building that car hopefully that might help you have a good day
Thanks. The entire fuel system is new, expect the fuel pump, which I rebuilt. The tank was new to me, but never installed (it came with the car). I'll see if I can come up with an alternate fuel source that doesn't scare me.
had the same problem....... webercarbs
Ended up being fuel contamination, I think (particles sloughing off the gas tank walls). Hasn't come back, tho.