What the ACTUAL 2002 A's thought of Moneyball
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2022
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#mlb #oakland #baseball - Sport
Glad these guys stand up for Art.
He came to New York and became a mannequin in the dugout.
Im not even a baseball fan but I love this movie. It needed the drama they created to lay out the point on how they were changing the game. So one of the old timers had to be the “villain”.
Perfect casting of actors for Hudson, Zito, and Mulder. Can't have the story without those guys in it. Wait a second.....
Yeah the entire movie kind of forgot to mention those three.
Yeah. Didn’t really mention Chavez and Tejada much at all either. Those five were a huge reason the A’s were a great team that year. Moneyball, while it was an entertaining movie, made it seem like Billy Beane took a complete cast of misfits he got off the Bill James waiver wire and made them into a World Series contender.
Not to mention MVP Tejada
and no mention of the league MVP Miguel Tejada lol
They also forgot the epilogue, in which, after a few decades of penny-pinching and doing everything on the cheap, never having any superstars, the team became a sad, homeless joke.
I just absolutely hate that they completely ignore that they had the best pitching rotation in baseball with Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, and Mark Mulder.
They also had Miguel tejada
Plus the damn AL MVP in Tejada lol
Fr bro, they did the defensive side of that team dirty asf
Art Howe seemed so sad 😭
Yea, I really feel bad for him. That must suck
Yeah that would suck being portrayed as a villain
There had to be an antagonist. The amorphous blob called MLB cannot be the enemy. Every MLB game has some "old school" guy that ends over dramatized into either the protagonist or the antagonist. My favorite aspect of this movie is the docu-drama style. Very well done.
I read an article in which Howe reported that he was supposed to be in the movie itself, but then they wanted real actors portraying those roles instead. So I got the impression that Howe agreed to have his name used for the movie because he was going to portray himself, but when he got replaced he had no idea that he was going to be one of the antagonists.
I think if the movie really wanted to make some unnuanced villain out of the A's manager, they should've changed his name. It's not like Peter Brand was a real guy.
The A's ownership should have been portrayed as the antagonist that they are. Not fair to Art.
Agreed. Criticism almost never falls in league front offices, owners and mgt. it’s typically on players and union. And even fans!
The truth isn't interesting enough!
In reality art probably was a lame duck manager, because he was in real life, Hollywood just over focused it as part of the story, probably one of the best seasons a lame duck manager ever had.
Read Lewis's book, Beane did not wake up one day believing in Sabermetrics, it was a years-long process in his evolution as GM. Howe was hired specifically to implement the front office's strategy for the roster they assembled. NO ONE ever argued with Beane, people feared his temper that stems from his desire to win. So don't view Moneyball as 'real life', only parts of it are real, see it as a parallel experience to the extremely insightful original book.
Even head scout Grady came back a couple years later. The book is fiction but the movie is egregious
Beane has a desire to win? That’s hilarious
I think moneyball actually predated Beane. In moneyball the book, sabermetrics were being used by Branch Rickey in the 40's
You mean he didn't meet Pete/Paul DePodesta in a parking garage and call him a "good egg"
They’d been doing saber metrics for a whole decade leading up to the ‘02 season
Art Howe got a raw deal. By all accounts Art was a solid dude and not the sour dude Seymor Hoffman portrayed. Great actor by the way (RIP). Great movie. Please tell me Beane gave the guys the business when they were partying after a loss really happened. *silence* that's what losing sounds like. Please
Ehhhhh. Art was a little dry let’s be fair.
I know it’s 10 months later but had to say it.
It was still Phillip Seymour Hoffman's greatest role, tour de force performance. I believed he actually was a MLB manager irrespective of whether it was Art Howe.
Hoffman was amazing. He and Robert Downey Jr are great.
It was definitely dramatized but yeah that’s how billy was.
Oh Wannnh….cry me a river.
Well now he and other players can go around and do laid interviews and talk about how he got a raw deal!
Art Howe got a raw deal. I got to talk with him at the A’s Fanfest in 1999. Polite. Respectful. Easy to talk to. He even took the time to talk to my son. The Art Howe in that movie is anything like the REAL Art Howe.
He did get a raw deal. The writer only interviewed him for 10 minutes. They made Howe the villain.
So did Grady Fuson.
I mean just cause he was nice all the years prior doesn’t mean he wasn’t on board with the moneyball strategy like it was done in the movie
His skill style was accurate… old mentality. Behind the times.
For what its worth, I never felt like the film portrayed Art as one of the bad guys. To me it read like he was a really good manager, forced to adjust to an entirely new understanding of the sport. And given that the next season was inexplicably not promised for him, he pushed back and made choices any other manager would have at the time, instead of bowing down to every one of Billy's controversial decisions. Also the way PSH played him allowed the viewer to really feel for the character. I was always rooting for Art in the movie
Exactly! Perfectly said.
But in reality, Howe apparently understood and bought in to what Beane was doing. But the movie needed an antagonist….
He was the only old-schooler that you felt sorry for. His ‘you’re killing this team’ line was the one moment where the audience really doubted the system
It is because people don't understand nuance. Art acted like any seasoned manager would in the film who had no contract next year and the front office trying to micromanage him.
he actually did have a contract for next season that was just a plain lie in the film
RIP Philip Seymour Hoffman
Unfortunately he was a heroin junkie.
I know the movie isn't totally accurate, but I still love it! Also, my dad caught a Billy Beane foul ball in the Kingdome in Seattle way back in the day, and he never lets me forget it! :)
Great to see the Legendary Dave Stewart after all these years; Class Act & Dominant underrated Playoffs Star
Keep in mind Moneyball was a nominee in 2012 for Best Picture! Sure, it plays with reality a bit for dramatic effect. But it’s a class film that I recommend to non ⚾️ fans as well.
I thought "moneyball" was a good movie, but they really did do Art Howe dirty. A lot of the scenes there never happened, but picture most true-story based movies to change the story to some extent.
I watched a number on Moneyball clips last month. They were so good I actually bought the movie! Watched it 3 times.
Holywood always does this, understandably.... movies need drama, villain's and character development.... in regards to Art he was sort of a villain, and David Justice not being on board to be a leader straight away was character development for him to go from unwilling to willining
Yeah, they need a narrative arc so you have to take creative liberties. I think they walked the line of portraying the spirit of the real life events while telling a great story very well. They don't portray Art as a bad guy at all either. He's portrayed as a guy who feels disrespected and on the verge of being cast out with the trash even though he's always done his job well. He isn't included in discussions and his opinion isn't respected. They show that all the guys like him and he treats them really well. One of the big issues between Billy and Art is Art not playing Hatty at first and Art says:
"I like the guy. Really. But first base is the moon to him"
Another issue with him and Billy is his contract where Art says:
"A one year contract means the same thing to a manager as it does to a player. There's not a lot of faith there, and that's odd coming off a 100 win season."
"If you don't win the last game of the season, no one is gonna care"
"So.. it's on me now?"
"No. It's on me"
When Billy trades away players to force Art to play the team his way, Art responds:
"You're killing this team."
He's not portrayed as a "villian", he's a true antagonist. He just fundamentally disagrees with our protaganists beliefs, but he isn't a bad person in the slightest. And Art should be happy he got Philip Seymour Hoffman to portray him. The man was a legend and he gave that role so many layers
It's a great movie, even if it is loose and fast with the facts. Like the old adage: when the fact becomes legend, print the legend. Art Howe is a good dude, and I remember that even us none A's fans outside the Bay Area were genuinely happy with how he managed his team. And what a fun team that was to watch.
Also agree with Dave Stewart, For Love Of The Game is awesome!
For Love Of the Game is my fav baseball movie of all time and one of the most ignored or under rated movies of all time
I'm a big fan Of Art Howe, growing up in Houston, Howe was the every day thrid basemen in the mid to late 70's, good hitter and fantastic glove, he was also part of the last out for Nolan Ryan's 5th no hitter, Dusty Baker bounces out 3rd to 1st; Howe to Denny Walling!
I will say it has some of the best attention to detail of any sports movie I’ve ever seen. The Fox Sports Net decal on the outfield wall, the Greg Papa audio, everything from that era was depicted perfectly
I remember Art Howe from when he managed the Astros....all I remember is that he seemed pretty laid back, easy going type guy, that everyone liked. Besides P.S. Hoffman not looking like Howe at all, I didn't think Howe was like that at all. It seemed to me, that Hoffman was was just playing a stereotypical coach/manager, and that he never spoke with Art or studied his character. Other than that, I thought it was a pretty good movie...despite not being a fan of Pitt. BTW, one of my favorite baseball movies is Mr. Baseball with Tom Selleck.
Art Howe just looks like a nice guy
Moneyball was such an awesome, genius strategy. They never won any championships with it, but it was super cost-efficient and stuff.
Owned
But every team uses it now...
Did you copy paste the synopsis of the movie lmao fucking npc
@@kevineiford2153 every team recognizes the stats that are more important. The Dodgers and Yankees care more about OBP and OPS than BA, unlike they did in the past. Doesn't mean they're using the 'moneyball' strategy tho
The fuckin devil rays seem to be tho. O's too an extent. But that's just financially. The "moneyball" strategy in terms of how it was portrayed is long extinct nowadays
@@GavinOCo moneyball as I see it is using statistics rather than an eye test or intuition, not any specific strategy
I love how the whole movie trashed the scouting and development department who found and developed the team
Yeah I think that part is real. I can see an old baseball pundit saying "ugly wife means low confidence".
@@user-of9qq6op5u whatever they did, it worked. They drafted very well
Dave Stewart hasn't seen Moneyball? Unreal. Love that movie
Art Howe was a hell of a manager and also a player
I've seen the movie several times. I'm now reading the book. It's very different in many aspects. I recommend both.
This movie not having Mulder, Zito and Hudson as a major point is like making a movie about the 2001 Patriots and just having Tom Brady be a background extra.
Still a great sports movie. Art Howe agreed.
did you ask David Justice if "Soda money" was a real conversation lol
This is a great movie, period. Like it’s not just a great baseball movie. Brad Pitt and Philip Seymour Hoffman (RIP) are world class actors and Jonah Hill was excellent. Chris Pratt is always great, this was one of his earlier movies I believe before Guardians.
I also like that in their Fenway conversation, Beane congratulates John Henry on hiring Bill James, to which Henry rejoins something like, "I don't understand why someone hasn't hired that guy sooner."
Old man Justice
I hope Art Howe can understand that even though his portrayal may be inaccurate, he never in the movie came across as wrong or stupid. I think he acted entirely within reason in the film. At no point did a decision made by that character not make sense. His motivations may have been presented as counter to B.B.'s but that isn't inherently villainous or anything.
It was a GREAT MOVIE!
Hollywood shoehorns this and other true stories into the “Sports Underdog” framework because audiences like it. Rocky punches meat, Daniel waxes cars, and Billy Beane uses statistics. You need a villain whether there was one in real life or not. It was a very good movie.
As far as I'm concerned Justice has been served!!!
The big question is...what did AH think about the metrics, and how resistant was he to change?
Baseball fans knew he was a nice guy!
I'm guessing he was fine with it because the As had been using metrics throughout the 90's
I wish they had written a script with historical accuracy. They were trying to create tension where it didn't exist.
“Nah man the Yankees are paying half your salary….thats what the NY Yankees think of you. They’re willing to pay 3.5 million just to play against you.”
Yeah I've heard that Art was always on board with the moneyball strategy.
One of my favorite movies.
The thing people don’t get is that it isn’t interesting to have a movie or tell a story that has no conflict, is it more interesting to have David Justice just be on board with his role on the team or have to be convinced to lead the team?
You have an architypical story model in your head and force the reality in it, because it is not interesting enough. So, by molding it, the reality becomes unreal and you have created fictional universe with its own characters and rules. They do it in so called biopics, but it would be honest to just call them fiction, because they are not based on reality but fictional story models.
People do get and essentially what they all said
Hollywood has a history of bastardizing stories. Very good movie, I watch it regularly and I have heard often the portrayal of Art Howe was deplorable. I remember when the movie When The Game Stands Tall, about the De La Salle Spartans in Concord and their streak of 151 games, so many parts of that movie took place over 10 years but they forced it into a one season campaign. I get the point but I would have preferred the producers to use a fake school name. Basically nothing of that movie was accurate.
For the Love of the Game is as brutal as the A’s are and as bad as the Colosseum has been for 40 years.
It’s pretty funny how the movie acts like the AL MVP Miguel Tejada and the pitching rotation weren’t majors reasons for the A’s success.
I agreed with Dave Stewart completley. The depiction of Manager Art Howe in "Money Ball" was an absolute disgrace. I worked for the A's for many years as an Usher in Guest Services. Art Howe treated people with respect and dignity. He would be at fan events and greet everybody at every table. He is a warm hearted and kind man. Not the unfeeling prick that he was depicted as in the movie. Philip Seymour Hoffman just mailed it in. I can't believe that an Actor who was in so many great movies like "Boogie Nights", "Capote", "Owning Mahoney", etc. had to take a drab part like this. .....If they needed a villian that bad NY Yankees Owner George Steinbrenner would have been perfect. Have George read the paper and scream "I will destroy that F'ing money ball concept of the west coast. Screw Beane and his small market team." Than have George throw an expensive bottle of Champagne right through the window. Audiences coast to coast would have loved that. ....Please ask Beane if he hated Art Howe that much, or if some Hollywood big shot made them depict Art Howe that way. I have friends in Texas who say they will never forgive Beane for making a good man into such an A-Hole.
I’m a Met fan. When Art was managing here he always was present at charity events and never had a bad word spoken about even in the tough NY media.
the actor didnt write the script or direct himself, its the screenplay, the producers and the director that assassinated his character
@@BIueharvest I agree with this comment. PSH gets his direction from a director, a script, and a producer. You can't blame him for reading the words from the script he was given...
I’ll 3rd what the 2 commenters before me said. Yeah, it was BS how they portrayed Howe, but don’t put it on Philip Seymour Hoffman. And I don’t think it was Beane’s doing, either.
@@aaronstark5060 exactly. The portrayal is the product of the script. Not much more you can say about it than that
I’m old enough to have seen Art Howe on TV playing for Houston in the 70’s. PSH was a terrific actor (in the right roles) but he was no more Art Howe than Gordie Howe in Moneyball.
Interesting
It was a movie based on history yes but it wasn't a documentary. Seems like with David Justice I put in to move the plot along to explain things the audiences not necessary to recreate real life scenes. Art they probably needed some sort of villain so coach drew the short end of that stick
I despise that movie because of the blatant inaccuracies in it, especially how they portrayed Howe. There was no need for that.
I knew it would be mostly nonsense when they showed a scouts meeting where the manager wasn’t included but the 3rd base coach was.
They didn’t say anything about Jeremey Giambi getting traded and what was behind that.
David Justice looking like a Puerto Rican reggaeton singer
i thought Art Howe was dead lol i was spooked when i saw him. for some reason i remember hearing he died. maybe im thinking of Phillip Seymour Hoffman lmao
You were thinking of nelson Mandela.. again twice
David Justice: "None of my scenes were real, but that's what Hollywood does" Scott Hatteburg: "It was great man, I got to meet Chris Pratt and Brad Pitt!!!"
But, on a more serious note, I think it's pretty admirable they all spoke willingly and without needing to about Art Howe and how they thought of him as a manager and person he was on the real squad.
Its a standard Sorkin script. You have a renegade going up against the system with his mathy smart sidekick saying some technobabble
It's a shame the directors decided to portray Art so poorly. Hate when they do that. Winning Time was a great show last year but they also portrayed Jerry West very poorly and unfairly...
Maybe the people that lived it, were not aware of how they really were. Not directly, but they were ignoring some of their character "flaws". Great movie.
I heard Manager Art Howe hated the movie on how he was portrayed. In the movie you can see Art and Billy Beane had an odd relationship as GM & Manager. In reality they had a great relationship and really didn't have too much conflict
Star Lord looking old these days
I hope that Jason Giambi hasn't seen this movie, and I hope he never does
I doubt he'd ever want to see his late brother cast in a negative light ever again
It was a good movie, but I was disappointed they did not have Hudson, Mulder, and Zito. The pitching is what got them there. Not the hitting. Its remarkably hard to get 3 aces for that cheap. It should have definitely been apart of the story, but explaining WAR in simple terms to the viewer was probably too difficult because you couldn't say "They get on base."
"They're better than an average replacement player" Just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Also that team was World Series worthy. Not just American league worthy. It reminded me a lot of the 2003 Marlins. I knew my Yankees were going to lose to whomever came out of the NL because we lacked pitching (& still do). The Cubs would have beaten us that year as well.
Which is why Cashman should have been fired back in 2004 for refusing to bring in pitching for 20 years! He must have watched the movie & never figured you need pitching!
i’m glad everyone stuck up for their manager.. they made him seem like an asshole
Just like holly weird screwed the Ford v. Ferrari story too.
Art Howe was definitely disappointed in his portrayal of the movie but now today he even chuckles about it and says ahh man it’s Hollywood I completely understand the drama and the magic of the film and the fans absolutely loved it and so did I he even admits that it was hell of good movie.
I sat next to Dave Stewart behind the plate one night at the Metrodome when he was scouting. Not a nicer guy in the world!
This team should have won the world series
The Natural deserves to be on that list.
Art Howe was definitely not onboard with the direction of the team. I’m sure he was/ is a nice guy but he wasn’t happy with the team management.
What about the fact that they tried to make it seem like it was all about budgeting and average level talent, when they neglected to mention that they had signed Miguel Tejada, the reigning MVP?
It's 2024 and this is the first time I've heard about the movie.
@breadandcircuses8127 not anymore someone stole it.
Go Ångels❤️🤣🤣🤣🤣
1:15
I cant tell if thats Hatty or Pratt😂
Gotta keep stars to win it all
David Justice was a problem child in Atlanta, New York and probably Oakland a little.
So I always laugh when Justice comes out and talks like he’s a team dude.
Art howe in the movie looks like the players manager the players make him out to be but idk if they what we happening behind the scenes because usually what happens between the brass should stay between them.
He said he was salt of the earth. He must've been very nice
Uhhhhh, it’s Hollywood. People acting like they don’t realize it’s Hollywood… 😂😂😂😂
It’s not about the team it was about the business in the movie the buss of the league.
The co host didn’t watch the film! Hahahaha
thats Dave Stewart not a "cohost"
The film was good because it took creative liberties. That has to be done in order to make a good narrative drama. It's not about being 100% true to the facts, it's about being true to the heart and soul of the story.
Justice still got it.
First off. Loved Moneyball. Have watched it many times. I didn’t mind Art Howe in the movie. There were scenes where he asked Billy straight up what was going on in the organization. Also the scene where he told Hatty he was up for Byrnes, was pretty cool. All time classic film.
If there’s no tension, if there’s no drama, no arguments, then it’s boring. At that point it would be a documentary and you tell me… how many documentaries have you seen in the big screen?
This movie is gonna hit a lot harder after the 2024 season and the A's leave Oakland...
Never understood the hate that Phillip Seymour Hoffman's portrayal got. I thought they did a good job showing his toughness and desire not to be pushed around. Besides, in the films climax, Howe is shown fully supporting their system, which is shown to be the reason why they won that last game.
The movie exists because of Hudson, Zito, and Mulder lol
Is that Dave Stewart?
Life is both more compelling then movies and movie often portray life more compelling .. strange
Great movie but they could have mentioned, oh I don't know .... Say ... The great pitching!!
Little Big League is so underrated as a movie.
Moneyball was a great movie based on a true story, but I don't really consider it biographical in any regard.
Moneyball is a philosophical movie. The themes in it are central to our lives. Beautiful movie.
You have to have a villain. And at no time has anyone ever said this movie is real.
Exactly...based on a true story, not a documentary lol
They left out the great pitchers
That's what I always bring up when ppl want to talk about this movie. Great movie, but only for entertainment purposes. For fun though, who do you think should've been cast for their parts?
@@chriskeck3689 only one i can think of at the moment was Barry Zito so him. It's been so long I know I'm forgetting the others but there was a few pitchers id say really carried that team I'd say the movie should've casted them and been a equal hero in the story.
also no mention of Miguel Tejada 😂
@@paulspecht3667 definitely which is really insane considering I think he had a mvp quality season
@@matsalvatore9074 Yeah he literally won MVP 😂
How to build a losing organization, by billy beane.😂😂😂should've made the movie about Gene Michael and Bob watson.😎
I feel like the movie nailed Justice's character.
Jimmy Fallon catching strays.
It was based on a book. Screenwriters create scenes to boil down what was more accurately explained in print.
Even the book was oretty inaccurate
@@plaidchuck what was inaccurate about the Michael Lewis book?