BMW M5 (E39) & Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio: the best saloon of the last 25 years
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- čas přidán 27. 04. 2023
- Ultimately, nothing could deny the E39 M5 from its rightful place on the PH saloon throne - but one came mighty close...
A lot has naturally changed over the last quarter of a century. But if the E39 represents the pinnacle of the performance saloon from PH's debut year in 1998, our runner-up - the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio - shows that the fast three-box model is still alive and kicking. Two very different approaches to the super saloon formula, for a multitude of technical reasons - although there are more similarities than you might think. After 25 years, the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree...
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After 250,000KM behind the wheel, I can confirm it is the best car, because when parking and walking away, after all those years, still look back at it every time.
250,000KM not bad. What model year is your Giulia?
@@Freimopp777 Have you not seen his username?
@@Freimopp777 LMAO look at my username.
Owned an E39 M5 for 5 years, 2005-2010 and did 100000 km in it, still my favourite all rounder. The F90 M5 comes close, special car too, my E60 M5 was defined by THAT engine, but crippled by non-existing range, and the F10 M5 was the least memorable. In contrast, the Giulia Quadrifoglio I owned, as manual even, had the most fantastic chassis and extremely direct steering that was very communicative. Perfect M3 antidote
As an E39 owner, it always puts a smile on my face when it's revered as the icon it is :)
Unfortunately it's not an M5, but it's a green on green manual wagon 525i, still a pleasure!
13 years with mine and I look back every time I walk away from it. I’ve driven many newer sedans and was always happy to drive home my E39 m5!
There we were 25 years ago buying E34s, E39s, and E46s and we had no idea we were living among legends. To me, the 2000 3-Series was just "the new 3-Series" at the time; I imagined in a few years there would be a better one and on and on forever. Little did I know when I took delivery in early 2000 I was driving what would become an icon. I now own an Alfa Romeo Giulia------I didn't make the same mistake twice----I knew dam well when I first drove it that one day people would say "I had a Giulia".
I witnessed every 5-series starting from the early 80s and agree, at that time it seemed to be a steady stream of (good) progress and no reason to believe it would be coming otherwise. The E60 came out and i didn't like it but thought it's maybe just an exemption. But i wasn't. After that BMW made good cars, bad cars, even some great cars. but it never found back to it's flow.
The E39 is an icon. It’s very pretty and well proportioned and it’s subtle. Subsequent M5’s are faster but thus is still peak M5 for many. It’s a shame they rust so much in the UK.
They rust everywhere you have a gust of wind and light drizzle... Unfortunately.
E39 M5 is not only the best sports saloon of the last 25 years, I'd say the E39 is THE BEST CAR of the last 25 years, if not all time. I'd take a brand new built E39 520i base model with a manual over any modern saloon. If only BMW wanted to build these brand new now. Just build them exactly as they did back then...maybe use more modern steels and stuff for better safety here and there, but keep the essence identical. I've never realized why car makers don't do that. That would be a trillion euro market, if car makers brought back old classics and made them new.
Car makers don't do that because it's plain impossible. Health & safety and emmissions regulations change over time and they dictate the shape, structure and materials cars can be built with. See how pedestrian safety regulations triggered the age of bulging front lids. e.g. the difference between the front ends of 550 and 599.
Totally feel the same i have 2 e39 right now did 300 000 km in them
The E39 is an icon.
I’ve just always loved the M5’s quietly intimidating and aggressive stance. It just communicates with understated confidence, “I mean business”.
To me, this video highlights that ‘old cars’ are still very good cars, in fact they might even trump modern cars - especially if you’re a petrolhead. In modern cars, everything is ‘by wire’ and although technically superior, it can feel synthetic and detach you from the experience.
i've started to feel like the new current super hitech cars have been making older cars much more appealing
Vids like this and my own experiences in modern cars made me buy and 'old' one.
I love the instant response of the N/A engine, I like my manual gearbox and communicative rack and pinion steering.
What people in these videos don't tell you and what I don't like is that these things just break. They don't tell you that because they take a usually well-maintained and rarely driven car for a short ride and don't even register it unless the car breaks down during filming. In this case, they edit it out :D
I've driven relatively modern cars before venturing into the world of vintage at my own accord. I definitely have even more empathy for those who aren't terribly well-off and *have to* drive aging cars as their dailies. That uneasy feeling you get every time you have to take a long ride and you hear some alarming noises or see yet another yellow or red icon on the dash that translates to a hefty repair bill is enough to consider a lease.
The sad truth I learned the hard way is that 'old' cars trump modern cars only when you have a modern daily on your driveway and don't depend on your 'old' one. Or when your old car is made in Japan and you live in a rust-free area.
@@pdcichosz yes, they should definitely include a disclaimer that you shouldn't buy an older car unless you have the means to maintain it.
I've got an Alfa 156 GTA (c. 2002) and have had several times people coming up to me wondering about the ownership experience because they had a fancy buying one (this was some years ago when they hit their bottom price point). My answer would be they should only consider it if they would be willing to spend equal the price of purchase on repairs & maintenance. That would usually surprise them and put them off.
But it is true: it's a very, very expensive car to run when you compare it to something like a modern Toyota. However, once you've got a lot of things done, you have a good idea of the state of the car and it becomes really reliable. So the last big job on my GTA was replacing the drive shafts, but this wasn't like they suddenly failed on me. Rather I could feel the play in them increase and planned for the job to be done. Then you're fully aware of what is going on and know it's fine and it will be fixed shortly.
@@kasimirdenhertog3516 Holy hell, that's what I call courage ;D Part of me is envious and another part grateful that talked myself outta it :D Spending a ton of money on preventive maintenance definitely helps and the multiplier you use is a good rule of thumb. However what I was meaning to say was that even with the means and maintenance some things simply give in to time and they never tend to do that all at once.
I have a one (previous) owner, theoretically well maintained E39. Not an M5 as I wanted something I would use as a daily. I started a trip last Saturday with the ABS module failure on the dash. The last time I had to take it for a longer journey I took it for a ride a night before (smart) and heard alarming noises. It turned out the e-brake drum brakes gave up and the internals of the drums were completely viscerated. Luckily the shop had a free slot the next day as the brakes could've locked while moving. About locking... Central locking seemingly has its own mind when it comes to picking door to unlock and yesterday it picked nada for a very long and stressful minute, right as I was getting ready to go back home. I can throw money at it, but the feeling of uncertainty literally every time I approach the car now (and I only did a few kkms in a year and a half of ownership) is enough for me to be disillusioned about the 'older cars better cars' movement.
@@dcode1000 --got car play and my e39 m5 feels totally modern.
I love the E39 M5. It's timeless to me. The next v10 was so special because of the engine but I'm surprised this won as I thought others with bigger engines would pull the heart strings more. The Alfa second is a proper suprise though. Those are the same price used as a Lexus GS F which I think is the most underrated super saloon ever made.
The e39 wins out of pure driving feel and experience. The steering and pedals are weighted perfectly (despite being a steering box) the gearshift is sublime. The chassis is beautifully balanced to the point you can drive it sedate, smooth accurate & fast or be a hooligan and slide the rear all over and easily keep it in check. One of the best saloons ever made imho
@@thedetailingdoctor5746 I beg to agree lol. Former owner. Some are faster, some are newer, none make you feel like an M5 E39. Beyond epic! Sold it in 2011. Miss it so much
Best M5 ! best shape , raw feeling!
GSF is a boring numb boat compared to the QV in terms of steering and chassis dynamics. The QV is on a completely different level. That V8 is glorious though.
E60 M5 V10 didn’t come close to the legendary E39 in terms of a proper drivers car
From a driver and dynamic perspective: Giulia Quadrifoglio is the best modern saloon car and the best saloon sportscar, no wonder it came 2nd. Being from 2016, it is still dynamically superior to all saloon cars that came after. Alfa outdid themselves, with the Ferrari derived F154 engine and a proper Ferrari DNA throughout the whole car. Everyone who says otherwise has never driven one or is numb when it comes to driving dynamics. Sincerely, a MY19 driver ;-)
and you are wrong in every way
@@KevinRedmondWA Tell me you have no idea about drivers cars, without telling me you have no idea about drivers cars 🤣
@@theatrenest9982 tell me you are wrong, without telling me you are wrong. 🤣
@@KevinRedmondWA I love the alfa, has it been reliable? Beautiful and very tactile if I were convinced as to reliability I would consider it.I own an e39 M5 and find it the best combination, and reliable. (as a 20 year old car can be). Alfa is beautiful!
@@KevinRedmondWA What a creative little parrot 🤣
Bring a QV and never drive it 🙄
I'm pretty sure there'll be a Part 2 version of it.
Waiting part 2. With Alfa🍀
Why would you when there’s an E39 to drive 🤩
Thank you. You saved me time. I was going to watch this video mainly because of the QV but after I read your comment I'll wait for part 2 & not bother with this video
Probably stuck in limp mode or won’t start.
This V8 might delivers it's max torque 500Nm at 3xxx sometime rpm, but it has already 480Nm at 2000rpm. Without any turbo or compressor.
My e39 m5 will always have a special place in my heart, I’m on my second e39 I owned an f10 m5 in the middle while the f10 is a beast and way faster compared to the e39 it lacks the soul and raw feeling the e39 gives. Hands down my forever car 2002 BMW M5 😍
Loved the commentary of this video. Kept me engaged the whole way through!
I'm diehard fan of bmw and i so much love m5 series old/new
this video quality awesome i like it
Love from Bangladesh🇧🇩
oh wow T400 BHP is the one that Tiff ragged around milbrook on top gear in like 2002! amazing stuff
I'm an AMG fan, but my goodness, this thing is absolutely gorgeous 👌
I drove mine to Italy for vacation and they freaked out. Filming while driving behind me, talking about the car at the hotel or at the stop-light. Crazy. Italians have good taste. ,-)
Yea i owned one since 2004 and still love it today.
Late '90s and early '00s was the peak for many manufacturers, especially the Germans. Therefore being 2nd after one of those cars is great for Alfa.
I was lucky enough to own a black E39 M5 back in 2004. Only had it for a year. But like a few comments on here,everytime I got out and walked away I always looked back and just thought, 'Holy shit, that's mine'. Still easily the best car I've ever owned.
E39 M5 - BMW at its very best. Fantastic super saloon and motoring icon. A real investment. A brilliant example of an appreciating classic. BMW M product went downhill after this model. The Alfa will be the same but will get better and better as it is developed over time, fingers crossed?! Would love both of these cars in my garage. Great video.
I just came out of an e39 540 and swopped to a 140i. The suspension in the 140 is shambolic by comparison. I've no idea what bmw have been doing for 20 years. Working on the b58 i expect. What a gem of an engine.
It’s great to see that Jason Segel is back reviewing cars. Top video!
Is it???
I like the E90 M3 way more than the E39. I wasn't that impressed the first time I drove one. The Quadrifoglio on the other hand, is just perfect.
I chose an E90 M3 over an E39 M5 too, and regretted it. The M3 was a fantastic car but I didn't like the DCT and felt that overall, the M5 is a more rounded performance car, while the M3 isn't quite a sports car (too heavy for one) and isn't as comfortable or well built as the E39. I sold the M3 after 3y; I think if I'd bought the E39 it would still be on the drive.
For me the best sport sedans from the 2000s are the E39 M5 & B7 RS4
Holden Hsv 😊
Both of my two favorite car sedans in one video!!!
WOW - what a combination of cars - LOVE IT !
I thought the presenter was Bill Murray😆. Anyhow great showing of the marvelous E39 M5.Good jobs!
Both my favourite super saloon. I do love the E60 M5 because of the V10 engine, but the E39 M5 takes my cake for simplicity. As for the Alfa, it's just a shame there's no estate verison of it.
Have owned 4. Definitely the best all round car I’ve ever owned. Brilliant
Love this cars
Not being biased being a BMW fan but I have to say BMW never fails to deliver a great M car so not surprised by the result. Great looking cars.
There have been plenty of lackluster M cars. Starting the sentence off by saying that then saying there’s no bad M cars is wild 😂.
@@dspirea pretty much anything with a turbocharger i'd include with that. No soul.
Legend has he's still trying to say he allready made a video on the e39 m5 😅
Was she featured in a BMW magazine up against an Alpina... if so I still frequently re read that for the millionth time.. beautiful beautiful car. Great video.😊
E39 m5 is an absolute machine 1 finger powerslides all day long :)
That BMW is conservative design perfection. I'm no BMW fan boy but that really was an amazing sedan and remains head-turning to this day.
I wish you talked about the Alfa and made a comparison
Sure it’s not the same but I got a 540i touring manual wich I adore and currently gets the smaller upgrade of an rebuild M62B46 out of X5 4.6is. The thing I love it the most for is just ripping and cruising on the Autobahn here in Germany and travel big distances. Mine as additional upgrades such as seats out of an E38 7-series and a pair of Stoptech brakes. Later down the road it get‘s the itbs of the M5 engine with an adapter plate. Beside my two E30s and my 4x4 Chevy Van it’s one of the best cars ever made imho.
I didn’t know it’s possible to use an adapter and attach ITBs… do you have any info on this that you can share?
@@Jazoolz_e39 There is a company who engineered an adapter plate. So you can fit the itb‘s and the plenum on top of that.
Legendary
Lots of people trashing the Alfa. I've owned both an M3 and a C63 AMG. I cross shopped an F80 M3 when I bought my QV in December. Other than interior fit and finish, the Alfa was better in every way. I loved my C63 as a pure visceral animal, but in terms of driving dynamics, it's not in the same universe as the QV. Not even close. The Alfa's steering is unrivaled by any 4 door car in the world. The G80 is faster thanks to AWD, and drives better than the F80. If you care about split second faster lap times, or need the best interior in the segment, go with the G80. But if you care about connection to the car, driving dynamics, and having a lovely visceral experience similar to legendary BMWs of old - but with 505 hp - go with the Alfa. (Also I've had zero issues, and it's spent 0 time in the shop).
exellent
Love the Giulia, and the M5 but still take the M5 E60 manual with the Giulia!
What about the e60 m5 with the 6spd manual ??
Taking delivery of an E46 M3 in a few days, will be interesting to see how it compares with my Alfa Q.....I am a massive BMW man, but the Alfa is a mental alternative to the fugly G80 , a proper track weapon and beautiful daily to enjoy, I would absolutely say the Alfa has an intimidation factor, even for a driver who isn't scared and has tons of experience, you need a level of respect with your right foot. I'd love a blast in the E39 tho.....
Mine tries to kill me every time I drive it…
I think the Giulia would have won (should have won?) if a more people had experienced it but it's such a rare beast compared to M cars and AMGs. The M5 is good but the GQ is brilliant.
Yessss. The QV is the best driving luxury sports sedan ever made imo. Sensational steering and chassis dynamics.
M5 fantastic car 🚗💨 beautiful of legends 😢
Filmed between Marlborough and Hackpen?
Bold statement
Love both of them, unfortunately the old copy book is not up to owning either one, ah maybe one day.
WTF is a QF?
Anyway the Guila QV is an awesome car.
It’s a pet peeve of mine . If you’re got to abbreviate it then use QV . Yes I know the word verde doesn’t appear in the name but it does have a Green Cloverleaf after all . Wish the car journalist would stop pronouncing the G in Quadrifoglio too .
Is it QF? or QV? I always thought it meant Quadrifoglio Verde?
This is the epitome of a BMW. What they make today is rubbish. The angel eyes on your M5 are like a ghost of the past that is sorely lacking in today's iterations of the "Ultimate Driving Machine". That naturally aspirated V8 sounds like a Bavarian symphony. Thank you.
What they make today is a F90 M5 that's also considered by many a great all-rounder, very good dynamically and a spiritual successor to the E39. Chris Harris bought himself a CS and I see other defo car people and old car people picking them as their dailies.
Unpopular opinion time. I like both of my E39 M5's, but neither lasted as long in my ownership as my current E60 M5.
I'm not saying that the E39 isn't good, because it is, but I prefer the E60 in pretty much every way.
You say the steering box isn't an issue. It is. Mine were well looked after cars and neither were great in the steering department. It didn't really communicate. The rear end, THAT communicated a lot. Steer from the rear was easy.
Alas, BMW have lost their way with the M5 imo. I like the F90 (and the F10 to a lesser degree), but neither feel like capturing my heart. I found the F10 quick but dull when I drove one. I've not driven an F90, but I expect more of the same.
Anyway, the E39 isn't a bad choice, it's just not my choice. YMMV.
Forgot to add. The getrag 420 has a terrible 1st to 2nd throw, especially when cold. The other 4 are ok though.
I was expecting a detailed comparison with the Alfa, not another declaration of love for the BMW.
e39 m5 or e46 m3 csl? it's like Sophie choice. couldn't choose one over other.
I had one paid just £4695 for it, drove it daily for 2 years and sold for £5500 approx 8 years ago, defo should have kept it!
That stings, the collector's car market has sure gone mad in the last 5-10 years.
I bought mine in 2012 for £5700.
Still have it.
I think maintenance, insurance and a few repairs have eaten into any profit I would make in it, should I sell it but I think I'd just about make money on it overall.
Still, as Jessie Jay says, it's not about the money, even if Meja says otherwise.
The best BMW ever and my biggest regret of selling it for 5k eur 10 years ago :(
E39 is just the best chassis ever made! E39 m5 is the top! And to make it even better - supercharge it! 🙂
Door should automatically lock?
Outstanding car, does everything well.
I had two bmw`s and an audi, my dream is to have an Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio :)
The E39 M5 isnt just the greatest saloon, its the greatest CAR ever made, nothing does so much so well as the E39.
@PistonHeads, you guys would love the IS500 in that case, but you do not get it in UK.
Make a trip to the US and you can review mine.
Also, IS500 is the true spiritual successor to E39, plus it is Lexus reliable.
How does the E46 M3 stack up to the E39 M5? The E46 M3 is my personal dream Beemer
Forza Alfa! Clear winner.
I nearly bought an e39 . Then I drove one and hated the steering. I got a year 2000 Hsv instead with the LS1 and a 2.5 turn rack. 😊
I came from a Mitsubishi evo before.
Surprised the e46 wasn't the E39 in here... You gotta do a comparison, iff that's possible, between the e46 M3 and the E39 M5. Agreed 100% with the Alfa
Rica etsem altyazı seçeneklerine Türkçe dil seçeneği ekleyebilir misiniz ? Sizi anlamak ve takip etmek istiyorum!!!
Im more of an E55 AMG guy but I think that we can all agree on this: the E39 M5 is objectively one of the best sport sedans of the last 30 years. Its timeless, its still reasonably fast compared to modern cars, its really well equipped and it doesn't have crippling reliability issues like some other BMWs.
My personal favorite of the class is the C219 CLS63.
Does Alfa even sell manual cars in the states?
I close my eyes and hear Chris Harris
Hi PH. Thanks for a awsome vid and review!
Could you do a review on the W220 S65 AMG perhaps?
ALFA ROMEO 💯🔥
I legit was planning on getting on ol school m5 but they only come in Manuel and i cant stand driving a manuel
Isn't the E46 M3 CSL a coupe, not a saloon?
Personally I think the ctsv if I could have under 100k, the generation before the blackwings
I do find the Alfa appealing, but having gone 35 years of driving and never needing a car with more than 3 doors I can't justify it (I know, billynomates)
2009 - 2012 Maserati Quattroporte gts is the best saloon of all time
is this the Jason Cammisa effect?
I believe the E39 M5 is over 5 to 60? I haven't driven the Alfa but I have driven an E39 M5, it's quick but I was a bit underwhelmed. I've also driven an E90 M3, which I think is much better than the E39 if you want to drive, and a current shape M4. I know you said "in the real world" the Alfa isn't much quicker in the real world, but the M4 (XDrive) was so much faster than even the E90 M3. It was also incredibly well composed on bumpy roads.
BUT, have you driven a Cadillac CT4-Blackwing? It's a fantastic sedan with manual transmission, rwd, and a super chassis with beautiful body control. Its more sporting than the bland sea of modern super sedans that put numbers ahead of the experience.
Would upset the Alfa crowd, this is made to convince people to buy a 6 year old car with new headlights.
You you mean
The giulia chassis is amazing and it's properly fluid and comfortable yet does a 7.32 around the ring. The e39 is like driving a barge by comparison. Let's keep it real here
Nah. Update the entire suspension and you're good. It's also lighter, pop a sc on it so it's boosted just like the Alfa and goodnight.
@Stance1988 E39 lighter than a giulia quadrifoglio? E39 is nearly 4000lbs 🤣 500lbs heavier than the quad. Pop a sc on ? Simply map on the Alfa and good night to that boosted m5
No manual, it’s a car for fruits. Good on the used market because they depreciate like a rock. Two year old cars with 25 service records, impressive.
@eiros59 they have literally not depreciated at all 🤣🤣 I have a 2019 , 20k miles not a single issue. 3 service stamps. You my friend are an unbearable shit talker 🤣🤣
Do a muffler a delete - Mine sounds like a Nascar at full chat! 😇
"Why is it always wet when I get behind the wheel of this E39?"
...is he referring to the road or his lady?
the e39 is just timeless...the body lines, driving emotions down to the rear wheels controlled by that 6spd manual gearbox...I own a few of them M5s and I dont think ill ever give them up- the Alpha is nice...but its not quite there and im no fan of some "sporty v6"....
How about a review detailing the downfall of the North Face brand image. 🤣
Sorry it has to be the Maserati Quattroporte sport GTS pure opera and sound compared to this Teutonic sound!
Update the website please. Too old fashioned
I remember being burned (wasn't watching) by a well worn one at a traffic light. By time the S54 came on song the E39 had just left 😅
VW Bora 2.8 VR6 4Motion is the best saloon
Does anyone still remember Lexus ISF?
I enjoyed 4 years of E 39 M5 ownership and agree with you about all its abilities and brilliance. It was replaced by 2005 Maserati Quattroporte - timeless automotive Art inside out, front mid engine transaxle - 47% front 53% rear biased handling, brilliant lightweight super smooth engine that is the best sounding dry sump lubricated engine with 7500 rpm, sensitive steering, very stiff chassis, and Automated MANUAL gearbox to be driven on Manual SPORT mode ONLY. Still on the original clutch after 61,000 miles and no mechanical issues. It was a daily driver the first 3 years. The original Quattroporte 5 is the best and most underrated, under appreciated, sport saloon of the past 25 years.
The Alferrari kinda looks like the E39, never realized that.
Every time this guy says QF I cringe. Honestly, such a one sided argument he hasn’t even learned why a QV is called a QV. Quadrifoglio is one word, you would never call a Purosangue a ‘PS’ or an Aventador an ‘AT’. Just odd. It’s a Quadrifoglio Verde, a QV.
Vigour and vim😂
Its the best SPORTS SALOON .... Toyota Camry is the best saloon